It�s just not the BH has to accept that his WW gets away with not giving her BH what she gave the OM. It�s that there is no real way for the WW to justify not to do so when we are expecting anything that way out.

For those that are saying this must apply to me it does not.

It�s about the BH that even if the marriage had problems he was happy enough to not have an affair and didn�t want a divorce. This is why so many marriages do not end in a divorce after an affair, and why the BH fights so hard to save his marriage.

It�s one thing for a WW to have a PA. OC optional bonus.
Then commendable for the WW to do the whole NC, transparent, honest with question, etc.
So a BH will accept these efforts and work towards recovery. He feels the affair is dead, WW made herself so I can verify NC is in place. He gets to keep his family intact.

That�s why when the WW does these things the BH accepts the OC price because he�s getting to keep the marriage/family he wanted intact.

Though when a WW has not met the BH�s needs for SF variety and frequency pre affair claiming that she was not that into it.

Then the WW did every SF thing the BH always wanted with the OM. How is the BH to go back and believe and accept that it�s not her thing?

How is the WW to convince her BH?

What if the BH reads Mr W�s book �How To Put Your Wife in the Mood� and his wife still says I don�t like those things?

Is it fair that WW gave the OM SF to keep him around during the PA. Then using the knowledge that her BH doesn't want to leave but stay married, so the WW can refuse to roll out the Red Carpet SF treatment for her BH because she has her BH over a barrel, between a rock and a hard place, up manure creek without a paddle, left out to hang, twist in the wind?

TheRoad, for the sake of argument let's say a BH has followed MB and the (F?)WW still chooses not to engage in ALL aspects of the marriage...what choice does the BH have when we all know that you can't control another person? No one is arguing fairness. That went out the window even before Dday.

Okay, let's give this one more try. The WW didn't give OM SF just to keep him around. She did it because he was meeting her EN's, which caused her to fall in love with him.

In order for the M to R, the BH and the WW need to find a way to meet each other's top EN's so that they can have a loving, mutually satisfying relationship. In all likelihood, if the BH is willing to meet his WW's EN's, then she will be in love with him and will want to meet his EN's as well, because she wants him to be happy. And vice versa.

This isn't about a specific sex act. This is about creating an environment in the M where both partners feel safe and loved and appreciated. This is accomplished by the meeting of EN's, avoiding LB's, spending 15+ hours of UA time together each week, and using the POJA to solve whatever problems arise.

I don't really know how else to say it. This has been said at least several dozen times on this thread alone, but it doesn't seem to be sinking in for certain people.

Well, TheRoad, it's hard to deal in hypothetical situations, imo, however, I will do what I can to answer your question, but like Mel, I'm pretty shocked that you don't know the answer after being here for as long as you have been. [As an aside, I'd be very interested in reading YOUR story - ONLY BECAUSE, I'm not getting that you are in a recovered marriage from reading your posts - and if you are a BH, then that makes me sad for you - I'd like to see you have a thriving marriage, maybe we can help you?]

Mr. W's posts on this thread have been AWESOME, I realize that I am biased, but really he IS handing you the "playbook" so to speak...Now, I am not a FWW that did what you are suggesting: "gave OM something BH never got/gets", but that didn't mean that there still weren't obstacles to overcome - yes, the enthusiasm had to return to our bedroom - I believe that is true for all waywards that had a PA - But how? I want you to really think this through - Can you imagine taking your wife to dinner and saying, "Honey, what would it take to make you enthusiastic about giving me oral tonight?" and having her respond with with instant sexual arousal? C'MON - Surely, you see the ridiculousness of that - Do you think that is how OM did it? That is NOT the art of seduction...Which is what Mr. W has advised...

TheRoad, the answer that you are looking for and SHOULD know is that when someone is in romantic love with you they will pretty much do ANYTHING you desire - outside of total depravity - Now, that does not mean that just being in romantic love with you is an automatic "panty-dropper", NO, there STILL must be the seduction - And really, it's the same for men on a different level - I certainly don't imagine that just because Mr. W is romantically in love with me that I can "get him there" just by looking at him, kwim? Look as much as I hate talking about the goings on in an affair, so many times I read here "Well the WW just GAVE it to OM" - Um, not exactly - as much as it pains me to describe, OM was "workin' it" - OMs call constantly - OMs text constantly - OMs flatter endlessly - OMs do a bang up job of meeting the 4 intimate ENS~~~> intimate conversation, affection, recreational companionship and YES, after that stuff, sexual fulfillment - They are pushing the "romantic love buttons" left and right - and I KNOW it's disgusting that the WW allowed them to do that - I get it, IT'S MORE THAN SICK...but it's FACT...

So, how does the BH "get" what OM "got"??? Can you answer that for me now, TheRoad?

Mrs. W

In this case, it seems likely that the M will end in D. If both parties do not dedicate themselves to recovering the M, then it probably won't work.

I think this is the rock and the hard place that Road is talking about. If I interpret him correctly, the BH has two choices:

1. Accept what scraps and leftovers of SF the FWW is willing to dole out, or
2. Divorce, become a weekend dad and live in a cardboard box because you don't have enough to live on between alimony and CS.

I keep thinking about Krazy71.

Yet what I've seen from WW's is that they largely refuse to allow their BH's to meet their needs. Once they've walked, how does one meet the needs of someone who has locked the vault door on the love bank?

So while I don't argue with the theory, the practice is impossible as long as the WW keeps the vault locked. Nothing gets in.
Same comment, how does this happen if the WW has locked the door, won't return, doesn't think the affair was wrong, or worse, thinks it was a good thing, etc?

Oh, it's understood.

I'm not sure you are understanding the frustration of hearing it was just that simple, and if you would do (or would have done) these things you'll get your needs met in your marriage.

Most times, it doesn't seem to matter how well you meet the needs for the WW, they remain WW, or file for divorce, or just walk away.

No offense to those who are here who did turn around. But if you look around you, you are not the typical outcome.

It's great that your marriages are restored or are in the process of being restored. But I don't think you understand how rare your circumstance is.

Mrs W, what ended your affair?

Was it something Mr W did, or did the OM end it?

Were you open to Mr W meeting your EN's while you were fully into your affair?

EE...

Now you are back to the same argument you always make - When I address falling romantically in love with each other, I do so from a standpoint that both parties are WILLING participants - You dealt with a WW that was NOT a willing participant - and that sucks, and I am truly sorry...I believe that you are a very good man that was dealt a very rotten hand - EE, I believe you did all you could to bring your WW back -- she had other plans -- you can't be "blamed" for that -- it was not your fault -- My hope is that you can let it go, and enjoy the marriage that you have now - I think that's what you are doing, right?

Mrs. W

Why the assumption that the BH lives in a box and has two nickels left? The finances will surely change but it doesn't have to be THAT dire. It depends on what is more important to a BS. Is the continued lifestyle worth the unhappy marriage?

Again, you have been here long enough to know this answer, TheRoad. Instead of spending your time asking the same question over and over and over again - ignoring every answer - why not use that energy to educate yourself on Marriage Builders? Board members should not have to answer these questions for someone who is simply too lazy to even do the very basic reading. Truly, there is no excuse for being this ignorant 3 years out.

I think there is a #3...

Confront the WS with the POSSIBILITY of divorce if they refuse to work the Plans...

which is what leads to plan B.

Most WS REALLY don't want to divorce or they would be gone instead of trying to hide the affair from being discovered.

They are cake eaters.

When confronted with DIVORCE they usually will PROTEST it vehemently BUT not accept the divorce.

THAT is what I presented to Mrs.Flint...

and I meant it.

Work the plans or we're done.

Not a threat...

the real deal.

Plans or divorce.

Jim

So what made you end your affair? Did your husband win you away from the OM, or did the OM dump you? Or did some other fact end the affair giving your husband a chance to romance you back to the marriage.

In other words, what made it possible for your husband to deposit love units in your love bank, when others have worked the same plans and were unable to make such deposits with their WW's?

Perhaps by telling us what he did differently, others can enjoy the success he enjoyed.

Exposure to my mom ended my affair - I exposed myself to her - she was beyond LIVID - she called Mr. W and they plotted and planned what to do - Ultimately, my mom [who had known OM - and his parents - since his childhood] called him and made VERY REAL THREATS that she was prepared to act on - OM lived[s?] in my home state, which is where my mom lives - So OM KNEW that my mom meant what she said - he would have doubted the words of Mr. W who was so far away -- OM ended the affair the day after my mom's phone call - WITHOUT telling me why - which was a condition that my mom laid out for him...He briefly did try to give me a hint in an email - My mom called him and turned the screws - He knocked it off, double-time...I did not know why he ended it for about a year and a half after the fact - and that was a GREAT thing...

Of course, I wasn't willing to have Mr. W meet my needs during the affair - That did NOT stop Mr. W though - he's kind of an "evil genius" - Mr. W both met my needs AND attacked OMs inability to meet certain needs WITHOUT looking like he was doing so - He planted info with ME that he KNEW I would take back to OM - things about finances - a place where Mr. W knew OM was VERY, VERY insecure...

But yes, eventually I did have to become willing to have my needs met - and willing to meet Mr. W's needs...EE it takes TWO WILLING PARTICIPANTS...

Mrs. W

EE, there are no guarantees that the affair will end - that the WW will return to the marriage...I think that is where you get stuck -- Exposure and my mom's threats certainly didn't have to work - that could have backfired, it didn't -- I don't know why the facts in our situation unfolded as they did -- Dumb Luck? Blessings? I don't know why, I only know that I am forever grateful..."There but for the grace of God go I", I often think when I read the stories here of waywards that continue to be wayward...

Mrs. W

EE -

I feel a profound sense of hurt and anger coming from your posts, as if you are trying to sort out what happened in your situation? It's a feeling that I'm all too familiar with myself. Are you searching for answers to feel assurance that your new relationship is better protected? Or something else?

What's bothering you emotionally?

Heck yes I'm angry. I get bombarded with how women are victims and men are not doing enough, and if only...

It's time for that sort of sorry thinking to end.

I guess I'm just sick and tired of all the misplaced blame.

I'm worn out.

I'm not saying folks don't have legitimate complaints. I guess I'm angry over the injustice of it all.

It's that sort of anger you feel when you see a child being abused by his parents. It's not a bad anger. I believe it's a very healthy anger. It's that anger you get when you look around and everyone is blaming the child for the abuse and you wonder why no one can see how destructive the parent is acting.

My analogy probably sucks, but if you've ever been angry over some sort of injustice, such as seeing a child abused or over you mother or sister being raped, then you know what I'm talking about.

To look at it from another perspective, I have read more that one BW here show great emotional upset when they investigate/discover some details of the affair.

One woman in particular, read love letters her husband wrote to OW, and found evidence of multiple deliveries of flowers to OW.

You could tell from her post it hurt her like he((. Especially since she had not gotten roses in years, even at the birth of their children, which she chalked up to family finances, little did she know- but he had never written her a love letter, ever. She did not even know her husband could write in such a way.

She wanted those things the OW got.

I do not think it is about sex, flowers or love letters. BS always question the motives, themselves and relationship dynamics constantly. They try to rationalize, even things out, but there is no real even compensation for an A.

The dynamic of jealousy, fairness, equal, and compensation is one the BS spouse must come to terms with alone. These really are things the WS can provide.

It can never be erased, "made up for" or balanced out. Not in any situation I have seen. JMHO

It is about understanding what you need, what your partner needs and deciding if you want the relationship enough to address those needs (did not say "give in", either)

Hi EE,

You are exactly right about the injustice of it all.

With the creation of NO FAULT DIVORCE it opened the floodgates for both genders to abuse their spouses without consequences.

Marriage is now the only contract I know of that now punishes the victim rather than the one violating the contract.

If ANYONE wants to end the M for whatever reason they have the right to do so...however they do not have the right to violate the contract and possibly kill their spouse with one of numerous STD's AND be rewarded for it.

Just a reminder that it has not always been this way, that only in the last forty to fifty years, the ME age has it been this way.

Prior to the ME generation, of which I am one, marital misconduct resulted in forfeiture of the majority of the estate, the children and some years back...your life.

While I don't agree with stoning...at least not now ...I DO think that until we go back to laws that do not reward marital misconduct on both genders part we will continue to have no end to the tragedy of adultery.

Jim