Time to speak my mind.
One: There are a lot of very good people here.
Two: There are a lot of passionate people here.
Three: There are a a few suggestions I can take: Started back with a nice 3 mile light run last night. A decade ago I did marathons. Maybe aim to train for a < 4 hour finish time by September of Next Year and a serious time by Spring 2012.
I will find a home that needs lots of work and put my spare time into making it a nice place. Then I can work on it with my 11 year old who is just the right age to learn carpentry - etc.
Four: I will water test the financial advice I have been given here with Steve H. If he says I am wrong I will admit it here. If he says I am right I will report it here.
Five: Given the number of MB'rs that have to choose Plan B its surprising that they don't have their own board? I am not comfortable going to a divorce re: site as I have too often seen the billiard ball effect of one person getting a D only to have their friend gettting a D etc... Its really easy to see that in a hospital were 85% of the work force is female and close friendships at work are the rule and not the exception. So, if there are male Plan B'rs who read this - (that is you are in Plan B - talk to me here - ).
Understand HTLD's and SR that you have not posted to me in vein, I don't think you are harrassing me and I have read every word you have written more than twice. Ask MelodyLane who took 3 months or more of periodic posts to convince me to Nuke. And it was the right thing to do, I am glad I did it, I just screwed up how I did it. Lesson Learned.
Final Thought: A guy by the name of Herzberg (sp) many years ago put together what he called a human beings "Hierarchy of Needs" First, came food, Second came Shelter and Third on the list came Love. If I take away Needs One and Two from my WW in theory she will drop needing Love in facor of her need for Food and Shelter. I can see how that might turn her head. But what is it worth to have a prisioner as a wife?
Please think about that. I feel like that is what I have now and that is literally what drove me out of the house. I can always have food and shelter - its love I need.
Guess maybe I came here at the start of Plan B to know that I deserve to be loved just like everyone else. Right now that is a very hard thing to believe.
I know better than to date.
I am too old and too darn competitive to have male friends. Since my job doesn't allow friends (I have to be lonely at the top if you will). Since WW#1 took up with my "best friend" its really unlikely I will change my ways at 56 years old.
Fixing up a house and going back to running are great suggestions.
Thanks for the argument. Maybe I needed that just to know there are people out there that care.
Blessings
HurtingTurkey

Thats all I needed to hear. {{{{{{{{{{{[hurtingturkey}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I don't agree with your theory that your wife will drop "needing" love from her heirarchy if you stop enabling her because she already HAS stopped loving you. And you are supporting her NOW. So you can see that supporting her does not cause her to love you. It creates in her a sense of entitlement to the benefits of marriage with absolutely nothing in return. She is being enabled and conditioned to expect all the benefits of marriage without giving anything in return.

I will be glad to hear what Steve has to say about all this.

HT,

Taking her back is ultimately your decision. I don't really advocate the financial consequences as a method to get her back. In reality, it is a form of rejection by you to her. It's saying, "Fine. You wish to be single. Then by all means. Take care of yourself. I'm under no obligation to do it since I'm no longer your H, according to you."

You no more have an obligation to support her financially than you have an obligation to support a girlfriend who has broken up with you. You wouldn't support a girlfriend. So why support her?

And this is what she needs, HT. You are doing her no favors by protecting her from the consequences of her actions. The natural consequences of contributing NOTHING to your marriage is that you lose your husband and all the benefits he brings. Protecting her from the consequences of her behavior harms you ALL. You are essentially enabling her marriage wrecking behavior.

Did you read Dr Harley's article about the dangers of "unconditional love" [newsletter forum] and how it invites ABUSE? That has proven true in your case. I say this as your FRIEND, HT. I am your friend and staunch supporter.

HT, you are analytical to a fault. HT, sometimes you need to trust someone else who has been there to direct you, as opposed to blundering forward on your own and hoping for the best.

Listen to people who have been where you've been. Listen to Steve H. Decide what you're going to do from that point. I do know that a lot of WW's have been delighted to get that 'blank check', and they're delighted because it feeds their affair. It makes them feel even more entitled, after all, BS GAVE IT TO THEM. Therefore they DESERVE IT.

Get your info and decide, HT.

I guess we can see what SH thinks. He may have a different take on things, but in my experience there was no incentive by my WXW to return to the marriage since leaving was really pretty easy. She got to keep a lot of money, a new car, our former nanny.

All the while I was on the sideling hoping.

Part of her coming to her senses is her hitting rock bottom.

No, no one wants her to return with the motivation that she has to because she's financially destitute.

But she'll have a choice when she's broke. Return to you or get a job.

My guess is that she'll seek a job to support herself first.

The Plan B letter lays out the condition for her return, which doesn't mean she'll come back because she needs money. She has to meet very specific conditions, such as NC for life and a committment to the marriage.

By no means does anyone want her to return motivated by money.

Hitting rock bottom will be what brings her to her senses.

I understand your thought process. It makes sense even from a romantic and idealistic standpoint. You don't want her to return because she sees you as her only option.

That's not it at all.

I guess what I'm advocating is more along the lines of "If she wants to be single, then by all means. I no longer have any obligation to support her in any way. If she wishes to come back and act like my wife, then I will treat her like my wife. Otherwise, take care of yourself, get a job to support yourself, and I'll see you in court."

Melody Lane: Why did I just know that someone would tell me to read the article on unconditional love. It figures it would be you. I re-read it last night and had trouble sleeping. I first read that article in the winter of this year.... I knew it applied to me but I am not above denial you know (sigh...). And I know I have done it for a long, long time (unconditional love that is). I guess I just had a long talk with myself. If I knew someone loved me as much as I have loved my WW I would probably think I walked on water.
I guess the combination of therapy, anger management and commitment to end my angry outbursts is coming to gether after a year.... Time for me to "speak it."
At first I thought I was trying to escape responsibility for my Yelling, Schreaming etc. at home. I am starting to realise that I have been emotionally abused for a long time. Every time my WW has wanted something in our marriage she has utilized emotional abuse (distancing, criticizing) and a variety of other manipulative strategies to hurt me. Then she would talk about something she wanted, car, house, etc. I would then provide and then the emotional distancing would happen again and again.
I can see it. I can't deny it. Maybe my wonderful, gentle, WW is not as perfect as I would like to make her out to be. And I don't write that out of anger. In fact, it hurts like he_ _ to write that. It hurts and it hurts.
I know she has seen me work like a dog to stop my incredibly cowardly use of yelling to try and get what I want behaviors. She has seen me cry over what I do know about the A's and she has not cried with me. OMG - 8 years ago both of my parents died 20 days apart and she chose to stay home with the kids instead of going with me to the second funeral (my mother's). Anyone know of another wife in America who did not attend their husband's mother's funeral? Yes I agreed she should stay and take care of the kids rather than fly 1,200 miles. What state of mind was I in when both my parents died withing 20 days of each other (BTW I just figure Dad stood at the Pearly Gates and demanded that he wouldn't go in without his wife!). I know sometimes in the past year or so its been like I am the parent of a rebellious 17 year old.
Okay, its clicking. I don't take the financial trimmings away out of anger. I am scared that it might be controlling but I do want to have a real marriage.
What you are telling me is that I have loved too much. What my therapist is telling me is that I may be the victim who acted out Yelling and Screaming (neither acceptable behaviors) because the pain of emotional abuse was so intense.
This is very hard to write. Very.
Maybe its too personal to write on a public board. But I so badly want to feel loved. Its been a very long time since I felt that way.
I keep thinking back to a ski vacation in 2009 when I had food poisoning (I thought I was having a heart attack after a particularly challenging series of runs with my then 16 year old step son)... As the room started to spin and I could feel myself growing hotter and hotter, as I started to pass out my last thought was verbalized to my wife "I love you."
How much I would like to be loved like that.
And now I know the A that I am trying to get her to put out in the open was underway in the weeks before that incident.
Its like it was a turning point in my life. I have wanted to be loved like that ever since.
MaritalBliss I hear you about entitlement.
It makes sense.
HTLD - Thank you for writing "By no means does anyone want her to return motivated by money.
I guess you are all saying if I pull the plug financially it is a form of love and caring for our marriage - different than giving everything but rather a form of committment to a hard step designed to bring the marriage to the clensing I already know it needs.
But let me be honest. At the end, if it goes through to a D, in the last hour I will probably give her everything anyway for the benefit of my son.
You know, I often won't read or even come to this forum because it can be so painful.
Perhaps I will post again later today.
Thanksgiving alone is not a happy thought for me. Maybe I can show up and volunteer in a soup kitchen or something to make the day meaningful for myself instead of "sorry for myself."
Thank you for caring enough to stick with me.
Blessings
Have a wonderful Thanksgiving
Sincerely (and the undersigned has no pun intended)
HurtingTurkey

It is past time to "man up", HT.
Sometimes, as guys, we need to be reminded, or told, to stand up and be a man, and to stop wallowing in thinly-veiled self-pity. I struggle with that myself, and perhaps someday I'll never have to be reminded again to "be the man" I need to be.

But today I'm telling that to YOU. Be the man you NEED to be.

You're going to just give all your money to your WW "for your son"?

Guess what? That's not noble or praiseworthy in the least.

It's just plain taking the easy way out. You'd be capitulating out of fear - at the VERY least, so you could pat yourself on the back later on in your self-pity sessions, telling yourself what a good person you are.

Meanwhile, your son would be being raised by a Wayzilla, whose primary concern is herself, and all the money "for your son" would be spent on frivolous things. Your son wouldn't thank you for it later on, he'd probably do the opposite.

So, HT, MAN UP. No more self-pity right now. The time for crying and pity is over. You spent some time crying and feeling sorry for yourself - which is fine. But that time is LONG over. It is time, my friend, for action.

Not endless rehashes of "new revelations" about yourself, or your WW, or anything else. Not more self-pitying opining about what you gave or what you deserve. Instead, TAKE ACTION. Take bold action.

Besides, I'll tell you a secret. (Psst) Women are ATTRACTED to a man of decisive action, one who can have emotions but is not governed by them.

Wayward wives have ways of wasting that money away on anything other than your kid. Seriously. You're better off trying to get primary of him.

If you're really as well off as you are, then live off of what you have and raise your son for a few years. Enjoy the years he has left before he goes away.

He isn't going to one day look back and say, "Dad, thanks for working so much and making so much money."

He will be grateful for the time spent with you.

Think about it.

If I had a ton of money, I'd stop working, get primary custody of my kids, and be a fulltime dad. That would be a great thing and I'm sure you wouldn't regret a minute of it when you looked back.

HTLD: There is a difference between being tough and being fair. Even if I received full custody I would still pay 50% of my net. That is simply the precedent in my state. I rate my WW's child skills exceptional - her marriage skills about a 2 out of 10. My child skills are perhaps 50% of hers. So no thankyou. MB and Dr. H do not demand that I select full custody. I could have stopped working at age 50. Sorry, not going to do that. I do get to choose what I do in life. I will not teach my son the life of idle luxury. He will have to learn to make his own way in life. He will never see a cent of my earnings. I see too many kids of priviledge destroy themselves and their lives. I expect to work full time into my late 70's. That is my choice and not yours.
I may choose to display my emotions on this board. That is my choice and frankly, you have sufficiently rankled me for me to guess why you were divorced. I could invite you over to Men Ending Verbal Abuse and Control but since you can't see it in your response to me I won't bother.
As for self pity... frankly, I reject your comment and find it offensive.
You need not challenge me to man up. As for attracting females, you would be surprised what a powerful executive position does - actually far more than you might realize. Trust me on that one. I learned early on that "attracting females" is not my wish or mission in life and certainly not a reason to make the wrong decision. AND - finding another female is the farthest thing from my mind right now.
I AM FIGHTING FOR A GOOD MARRIAGE AND NOT A GOOD DIVORCE.
If pulling up the financial reigns is a good response similar to nuking then I have considered the recommendation. As for how I eventually financially settle if it comes to divorce - that is my business - I can poker bluff being tough on finances and I can pull the reigns in now. I got your point there (eventually). Peddle your anger tactics for my final Plan D off this thread. It has never been a marriage builders value to "screw the WW" which is pretty much where you seem to come from. Just Because I went Plan B does not mean I need your opinion of how I eventually settle if Plan D comes along.
One more thought comes to mind. My wife may be wayward but she walked away and refused to take anything in her first divorce. No house, no settlement Her ex paid $200.00 a month in support for 2 kids that I have brought up (he owns a thriving car dealership). In my case my WW has her issues - I have had mine. I actually can fully expect her to try and do the same thing (that is take nothing) with me.
As for manhood HTLD - We all grieve differently. Sometimes it takes compassion to be a man. My definition may be different than yours. Have you ever had your hand inside the open brain of a wounded 19 year old Marine while under fire trying to stop the bleeding in the faint hope that his brain is not severely damaged? Ever feel the blood of the man you just put a round in at 15 inches spray in your face? And I still grieve about it. It still hurts. How long I grieve and how I choose to do that is my decision. Have you ever p_ _ _ _ ed in your pants because someone is shooting at you but then run toward that person anyway? I know firsthand what being a man is and it isn't always saying "I got mine"
I believe it is General "Storming" Norman Schwarzkopf who said "I will never trust a man who does not cry."

AND I have cried and probably still will. Again, sorry if that offends you. Maybe I work hard so I don't think about it all the time. Maybe, just maybe we will NOT put a lien on someone's house and I will mark the account uncollectable because I refuse to do so when they are stuck with a $40,000 hospital bill for their drug addicted daughter's admission, drying out and behavioral treatment at my hospital. We all have our missions in life.
HurtingTurkey
Thank you very much.

Good luck, HT.

Thank you Marital Bliss!

He needs it.

Eighteen pages and everyone is telling him don't finance the affair.

Eighteen pages where everyone else is wrong and he's the only one right.

Thank you for being so brutally honest with yourself and with us, HT. I know it was hard for you to write this. You want so very bad to believe that your W is what you want her to be and not what she really is. Ultimately, she has to be defined by her actions, not by wishful thinking. And I know you know that.

I will be thinking of you over Thanksgiving and wish you God's Blessing, my friend.

p.s. HT, I hope your IGNORE button is working, I would suggest you use it! Have you spoken to Steve Harley yet? I am interested to hear his take. I think he can be a great help to you.

Good call. Happy Thanksgiving, Mel! Please tell me you didn't go out there and shoot that bird yourself...I know you're capable...

It's pointless just let him do what ever he wants, he's already done it before 4 more times won't kill him.

Good luck.

HT, I am sorry, I may be young but my memory for some things is very BAD. Your WW left her first divorce with nothing. Did SHE have an A the first time around?

locked and loaded, baby!

Happy Thanksgiving to you, friend!

I wouldn't bother...digging birdshot out of a turkey is tedious and time consuming. I prefer to hunt my turkeys at Albertson's or Kroger!