I told Family on Friday night including an age appropriate witht the ten year old. That exposure hurt him terribly and I would not do it if I had the chance to do it over. The involvement of the child seems to have been WW's last straw. WW leaves with kids to go to mother's house. Calls and asks me to leave the house on Saturday. "I don't love you, I have never been happy, etc., etc." Followed by I want a separation and divorce. I left the house Yesterday and the depression nearly drove me to extinction if you know what I mean. I survived. Do I go back to the house against her wishes? She did not stay in the house last night. I do expect legal separation papers shortly based on her comments. Thoughts?

Just go home. There is no reason to leave your home. Tell her if she wants to separate, she can leave.......without the kids.

Thoughts ....

WW says "JUMP !"

You jump.

Why did YOU leave. YOU are not the one betraying your spouse and children. So what if she is "hurting" over exposure. Just remember all you did was tell the truth. BTW, your 10 year old child would be more damaged by lies about his life than the truth.

HT, the important thing is to assure her you will not cooperate with any separation schemes. If she files on you, tell her you will counterfile on grounds of adultery and have the OM hauled into court to give testimony. [if you are in a fault state, that is] Let her know you would go for full custody of the children and possession of the house in the event of a separation.

That will cool her jets ASAP. Just don't REACT to her anger and she should calm down. She is just mad that you exposed her fantasy, that is ok. She will get over it.

One of Mel's oldies but goodies (below) ...

Of course your son was hurt by the affair. But you did the right thing in telling him. Often, even very young children know about an affair, or that something inappropriate is happening, and they are stuck keeping an awful secret. They want to protect the BS by not telling, but also feel horrible for NOT telling. What a terrible thing to do to a child, but it happens frequently.

At least now your son can talk about what is happening in his life, without fear.

Pay attention to what Believer wrote.

YOU are the sane parent, to whom your child can turn to with his fears/feelings/anger/.... everything.

You become the patent who will not lie to your son.

I am going to reiterate what everyone else is telling you. Go back home. Don't worry about telling your 10 year old.

In my case, at the moment, my DSx2 are the only soldiers against my WH's affair. I didn't recruit them, and I don't tell them what to do. All I did was teach them right from wrong and tell them the truth. DS7 even told me one time, "But Daddy can't have a girlfriend, he is married to you. We should call the judge and have Daddy put in jail for not following the rules." He is 7 and he gets it.

Just explain to your son the truth about the sitch. Kids always know that something is amiss. They might as well know the truth because their imaginations can create something way worse.

Your WW is just mad because she wanted to keep this A in affairland and not have it interfere with her reality. Now she has to deal with consequences. Good. Keep up the good work.

Thank you for all the support. I am barely surviving by the hour, and am expecting the worst. She is hiding my ten year old from me. Very hard on me. Thining about going to school and asking for him but very fearful of consequences. He is all I have now.

Don't go to school. Move back home, and avoid any confrontations - you might want to have a tape recorder on you. Sometimes WS's will pick fights or lie just to get rid of you with a restraining order. Be calm and cool.

She is angry right now, but will cool down. If she continues hiding your son, go to family court and petition for contact.

Move back home.

She won't want to "hide" at her parents or elsewhere with a 10 year old for very long. That's just too much disruption for everyone. It messes with her space, his space, the get up and get to work/school schedule, the after school routine.

I lived at a girlfriend's house with my children for a week or two when my first marriage dissolved, because I feared for my safety if I stayed in the marital home. They were delightful people, gave us an entire bedroom and empty dresser and a bathroom to ourselves.. and it was still a royal PITA.

Move home. She'll show up eventually. I'd reckon before the weekend.

Oh, just rereading one of your posts. Are you certain the OM died? Just seems kind of convenient.

No, nuking was not a mistake. Leaving was. You have heard this from several on this board.

My niece was asked by her H to move out (with child) so he could "have space, think about our marriage", all the blah, blah, of WS talk. She did not have any education about affairs, WS, etc. as you see on these boards.

Guess what? He was in an A and it made it easier for the A to continue. Now he could bring the OW to his home with his daughter to meet while she visited her dad.

When it came to separation/divorce, the husband pulled out the ,"You abandoned me" card. She was shocked.

So, you are hearing the best advice here. She should leave if anyone leaves, not you. An she does not get your son.

When we exposed to our daughters, they already knew something was wrong. One daughter had already figured out who the OW was.

That daughter said before exposure was hell because she saw what I was going through and "I went right through it all with Mom."

The older daughter said she never again wanted a secret. She wanted to know what was going on and not be blindsided.

It is good you exposed. Even when my H and I told our children together, he minimized and omitted. They didn't know, from what he was telling them, that it was A on his part we were talking about. They didn't understand until I said more. My H did not come clean. He didn't want to "uncover" the OW. His thoughts were more about protecting her than his own children (unfortunately a commom WS practice.)

They yelled at him, "quit beating around the bush, spit it out, Dad!" Even after that he didn't make it clear, I had to.

You need access to your son. If he only hears from your wife, who is in the "fog", he will become as distorted as she it.

Go home. Stay home. Tell her SHE betrayed the family, not you. You get to stay in the home you honor, not her.

You must know from reading these boards that letting the A hit the light of day and letting the WS deal with her A on a daily basis with only the OM (no cake eating) can often bring a reality adjustment to the situation.

Don't buffer her from the consequences of her actions. You just duck expecting flak - you burst her bubble. She will rant and rave for awhile. Don't be surprised if she serves you.

You and your son must live together.

Get counseling for you and your son.

My children both had ongoing counseling for a while and still do occasionally when things come up. It has been less than 2 years DDay for them.

It was not a mistake to do what you needed to do.

It was a shame that she took actions in her life that required you to reveal the truth to your precious child.

She did the actions. You reported the facts of her actions.

Your child is undoubtedly very appalled and wants to believe his mommy is what a mommy should be....selfless and putting her family first. She goofed on that.

The truth will be assimilated by your child with time. He will be a stronger person knowing the truth in his life than faux facts and gaps of knowledge.

Your WW blew it....you did not.

They do all get incredibly pissed when their adultery is revealed. It isn't a pretty, fantasy thing at that point and they don't like having others know.

Let is roll off you.

Love your child and offer him support but do not harp on it with him.

Do not feel like you erred. It was a dreadful task that needed to be done.

Absent any custody orders or orders of protection, there is nothing limiting your interaction with kids. Absent an order of protection or custody orders, there are no consequences of seeing your kids at their school.

I think you did the right thing. When I exposed, my wife went nuts. She went to a lawyer and threatened harassment. She is still mad about it. But, it gained me a lot of allies. A lot of people believed the bull she was spreading before. Now, even her family turned against her. She quickly went into damage control but it was too late.

Don't move out of the house. My wife threatened she would leave too. She still might, but I've been here for 43 days since exposing and she is still here making my life miserable in withdrawal. Don't give into her threats. Try to be better than me and not let her drag you into an argument.

I believe in honesty and integrity. My wife, and yours, are angry because they prefer the lie that allows them to be the poor incident victim of a bad marriage, not the bad guy. At first I thought I should protect her reputation, but remember, at this point she has no respect for you and will not appreciate that gesture. It will only enable the affair.

Chin up man. This is rough. We know. It will get better. It will probably get worse before then so come here for support.

One suggestion I did that was a huge help to me. I went to Dr. and told him of my marrriage troubles. Asked for a temporary prescription, something mild, for anxiety.

Takes the edge off, helps you think clearly, avoids angry outburst and love busters. Just temporary. You won't regret this.

YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO GO TO SCHOOL AND SEE YOUR SON

YOU ARE HIS FATHER

YOU.....ARE NOT THE ONE CHEATING

All that said don't use your son as a pawn stay on the High Road

What ever the WW says or does your son will see thru it ....Trust him he'll want to be with you and if the WW tries to poison him he'll push away from her and you will win in the end...

Your children are not your W's property. Never have been, never will be.
They are your children and you are 100% responsible for their welfare.
Make sure, no matter what, that you are in their lives. And taking care of their needs, emotionally and financially.

very good advice. As always, PSBU, too.

Thank you everyone here. I appreciate the comments.
As of now, I am in the house. WW continues denial etc. "I don't care what you read in a book. Telling our ten year old our issues is wrong. You did not protect him. I did nothng wrong (deny, deny)."
For those of you who have read other posts. Yes one other man is dead but some evidence indicates that there was one other.
Its interesting how WW (and I still like to think of her as wonderful and gentle because she once was and I would like to hope that she will be again some day)tells me how selfish I am to ask for one hour of her time on saturday night to go out to dinner. She really said that this morning. I know she is focused on studying but the extreme is just incredible. I held my tongue and let her vent on me this morning even though I wanted to say "for the immediate future I will be supportive of you no matter how insensitive, mean, selfish, disrespectful and calculating you are." Thought better of it. Considered a text but let that go.
I also got "I will never forgive you or get over you doing this to our son." BUT for the moment she has agreed that I can be in the house and curiously, the "rash" that was keeping her from wearing her wedding ring very often for the past few months appears to have gone away because she has been wearing it the last three days.
The couch is not very comfortable but it is better than a hotel bed....
I have made it very clear in gentle conversation that if she files that I will retire to a much lower paying form of employment (it may be time anyway) before the decree is finalized so that I do not become a slave to my high stress long hour job. And that is factual and not a bluff.
This is the toughest thing I have ever done in my adult life.
Its amazing also that I feel more closure to the 1st affair now that its obvious that there are consequences even if she wants to say "just friends" to family and blame me for her needing a friend.
I don't feel vindicated, but there is a sense that she is learning there are consequences for behavior. It was sad to find out that my ten year old son knew the 1st man who died.
I do believe the grief my ten year old expressed for hours and hours afterward may have made her for the first time recognize the trauma she has created although she wants to blame me. I guess my defenses kept me from recognizing that yelling was wrong are similar to her defenses now.
I feel very insecure right now and I think she has done a great job of defending herself with her family. Both families are telling both of us to get away from the other now (polarization). I guess its day by day now. I am honestly on the brink but because for the moment things are not over, I feel better. I just hope I can be strong enough if things go sour.
I spent two hours on homework with my ten year old last night.
That was good.
?Back to plan A now? What next?

Sleep in YOUR own bed.
If wife choses not to join you, she may use the couch.

Don't make any big announcement.
Tonight, go to bed before she does.

"Well, I'm off to dreamland. Good night."

No discussion.
No arguments.
Just go to bed.

Why are you on the couch? You've done nothing wrong. Let her sleep on the couch if she doesn't want to sleep with you. Consequences.

Also while it is good you are not lovebusting when she berates you, you don't have to take her abuse. Smile and leave the room, put on headsets, whatever. You don't want to take the chance of being goaded into LBs (which will make her feel justified in treating you badly) and it will send a clear message that while you want to recover your marriage, you are not a doormat.

Keep up the great work!

Ha, ha, Pep--great minds think alike.

You did the right thing!

Your child needed to know the truth about his own life. And he needs his only sane parent home w/ him.

The way to change your feelings of insecurity is by continuing to do the right things. Brave actions will make you feel stronger.

Moving back in your own bed is the next step.

You can't control what WW does. Or what your/her families think... so don't waste your time worrying about them.

Focus on your plan. What they choose to do won't affect it.

And seeing a doctor about getting on antidepressants is good advice!

You need to document events with a handwritten journal.
In ink.
Dated.
Complete with spelling errors.

This is NOT to journal your feelings/insecurities/etc.

It is to journal EVENTS only.
If you are going to write down part of a conversation, put it in quotation marks.

NOT ~~~> "WW was very upset."
THIS ~~~> WW said; "What are you doing in my bed?" (I was in our marital bed)
THIS ~~~> WW said; "How dare you. I hate you."



Also, document mundane events.

"Studied with (kid) for 2 hours. Did science project."

I agree, do NOT permit her to berate you.
If she begins, you hold up your hand and you say "STOP" I will not allow you to scream at me. If you can discuss differences without hostility, I will remain."

If she continues, go to a different part of the house, get a tape recorder, and begin collecting taped conversation evidence of her unwillingness to stop arguing in a hostile way.

HT, good grief, you do not need permission to stay in your own home. Nor should you be sleeping on the couch. Why in the world would you do that? Go get in your damn bed and tell her this is my bed, we are married, I love you and have no intention of going anywhere. I have done nothing wrong and won't be punished like a child.

HT, you need to buck up here and start being a leader in your family, my friend. Your family needs you to be STRONG in their greatest time of need. Right now, the leader is the emotions of a very angry, selfish tyrant. That is not helping your family and does a disservice to your boy to have to watch his dad crumble under the slightest pressure. Your reactions to her are not rational. She needs to see you in control of your emotions and with a plan in hand to save this marriage.

And no, don�t expect �gentle� from me when what you need is a smack upside the head to get a grip on yourself! Get a grip, my friend!

Definitely make an appointment w/ your doctor and get something to help you. Many betrayed spouses found that antidepressants really helped them get through this difficult time.

Please call your doctor.

HT,
You are starting to do better. Congratulations on moving back into the house and for telling your child the truth. You have begun to regain and assert your strength. Like the other posters said, your next step is to return to the marital bed. If she has a problem with it, she can sleep on the couch. Like I said, you are starting to do better, but you still have some thought processes that need to be adjusted, mainly the idea that you need her sanction to live your life as a married man should.

Remember that there are no guarantees that any of this will turn out how you want, so act in accordance with how a strong man should and do the right thing by your children. Set the right example for them on how to not accept abuse.

Have you bought yourself a digital recorder yet? You MUST MUST MUST do this. It is common for WWs to claim abuse to get you removed from the home. Protect yourself against false accusations. Read Patriot45s thread to see how it should be done.

Best wishes.

Last night I slept in my own bed with the cocker spaniel in between us. My WW is just ANGRY and the rage is clear on her face. I am at times torn between regret about my love buster behavior in the process of exposure (I should not have had to get angry to do it) and my past episodes of yelling. I can almost track those episodes to every three months. But I cannot change the past....
You are all right. There will be no guarantees ever. It is so amazing to see her wearing the wedding ring after her not wearing it very often for so many months. I would love to interpret that as some kind of commitment but it might also be that she is doing it because she knows it upset me when she did not wear it and now she is afraid of me. I do believe she is afraid of me. How much? Well, I suppose she stayed in the marriage along time before the A. Has she had enough? Who knows. For the moment I am in a much better frame of mind probably due to a doubling of my medication. The fear I had been feeling (constantly feeling threatened) is nearly all gone. What happens, happens. I did (as I so often have in our marriage) rub her feet for twenty minutes last night until she fell asleep. At least some form of human touch and something I have always enjoyed. I again worked on homework with my son last night and it was special.
I guess for the moment I just will try and give her as much space as she wants in the house. If I get served, well, worrying about it won't change that.
We had planned a ski trip starting March 6th through the 10th. I have pre-paid and I will not cancel it at this point. I have told her she really does not have to decide on that until next Friday evening. I will be prepared to quietly accept her decision not to go and just eat the money. If she does go, I won't try to do much other than play on skis with her. After the dose of antiD I have about as much interest in SF as I do in learning to speak Swahili (SP?) if you know where I am coming from. We started out as friends so I guess we could not go any lower until or if I am served.
It would be wonderful to become friends again but maybe I am just dreaming. Well, for the moment I have the strength to be gentle at home and I am throwing myself into work. I have seen a therapist every day this week and will now go to once every two or three days.
If you or your kids have ever played soccer you are familiar with the concept of Yellow Caution Cards and Red Cards. I gave my WW a set of yellow and red cards last night. I told her that if she ever wants me to leave her alone to hold up the yellow card and I will leave the room and not return for several hours. If she wants me to leave the house for a while she simply displays the red card. The idea (suggested by my own therapist) is that because I have been a college soccer referee that I will respond instantly to a visual versus verbal signal. In the past my upbringing and a lifetime of patterns had me engaging in an argument when I was verbally challenged. My soccer training should help me back away when she is angry or does not want to talk about things. This way I can hopefully avoid attempting to convince her to change which in the past has led to arguments. I cannot change her. I cannot continue to try and make the marriage work by myself. It has exhausted, frustrated and depressed me. Its all on the table now and the next step I think is hers. Thoughts?
In the meanwhile I will show respect for myself and do my best to act like a strong man. Funny what a woman can do to break down someone who once had the toughness to be a Marine. Or maybe just life events.
I hate to say it in some ways, but I am glad that I exposed my once wonderful, gentle wife who went wayward. For some reason I feel better. That is not something I will talk about with her now or perhaps ever. But it is true.
And for the first time in many months I am beginning to really focus at work. I feel a great weight off my shoulders but of course if she does file, that will be back....
Thanks everyone for the support.

hurtingturkey

Nice concept. I think preferable would have been Yellow Card = you shut up, Red Card = you leave the room (not applicable in the bedroom - think of that as inside the goal). No forcing you to leave the house or break your arrangement by holding up the Red Card whenever she wants to.

I just don't understand this at all. I mean I can understand the concept of the cards to stop potentially lovebusting behavior, but I think the required action from you should have been to end the conversation, and nothing more. For instance, yellow card means lower your voice or calm down. Red card means to stop the conversation.

You actually gave your fogged out WW a tool to kick you out of the house whenever she sees fit?

I think that though exposing is rough with having to be brave and actually do it THEN dealing with the hissing, spitting wayward dervish

it DOES help us feel better/stronger because we are not perpetuating a cruel, perverted secret and thereby being party to it.

YK?

Am I dreaming? Am I being set up? Who knows.
Last night I came home to a wife that expressed zero anger. She was asking about my day and delightedly telling me about hers. No she was not kissing me, hugging me or telling me she loved me. But there was a caring attitude that has been missing over the past year. Maybe several years. Again the wedding ring was on her finger and she spent some time with me before returning to her studying. That has not been there for a long, long time. I have been starving for that.
Absolutely starving.
I don't know what to think. I am afraid to speculate.
Can I hope that she is making a decision in favor of the marriage? Is she just settting me up for a bigger fall?
Yeah, I know, no guarantees.
Well, I know that I feel better. Situational? Maybe. Probably. But I feel much better than I have in many, many months.
But my guard remains in place, and I have to be ready to take a hit and survive.
For the moment I am allowing myself to enjoy last night's memory even if it is fleeting. I have to hold on to a little hope.

Hurtingturkey

HT,

Sounds good but don't be too optimistic. At least in my experience, she may just be up to something. Trust but verify. Continue your plan.

I really do hope it is authentic though.

I want to encourage you to do one thing that you must do. Man up, take a deep breath, and calm down.

All will be ok. No matter what happens, all will be ok. If she leaves you, you will be ok. If you divorce, you will be ok.

The number one thing that you MUST do, no matter what, is to be there for your son.

Your wife, no matter what she thinks, will can't keep your son from you. There is a lot of misperception and mis-information regarding rights as fathers.

For one thing, you could get a protective order in place that your son is not to be taken out of the marital home. Women in these situations feel they can dictate to fathers when and where they will see their children. They have no right to do this.

What you need to do is understand that short term losses mean long term gains. NOTHING prevents you from picking up your son from school, taking him home, and acting as if all was normal. She has no right to take him from his home and is in fact behaving in a way that shows she is using the child as a weapon and could backfire on her big time.

But you must be smart on this. You likewise can't be perceived as someone doing the same. Returning your son to your home is perfectly within your rights. There is no order that says otherwise.

The way to man up is to let HER understand that SHE is the one that messed up, not you. You are simply carrying on with your life. That means you will pick up your son and bring him to your house since it is your son's home. She can't accuse you of anything since you're bringing your son back to his home. So she has no case.

She'll throw a fit. She'll show up angry at the house and make a scene. This is where the tables get turned and you call the police. Use her sense of entitlement against her. If you live in a one party state for audio recording (check online) then you need to have a voice recorder for when she shows up. Catch her blaring her venom at you while you stay totally calm.

You are simply coming home and bringing your son home.

But what you need to do is counter-intuitive. Angering her means you're doing the right things.

Understand this is a message coming from a man that has had the depths of depression that you're going through. I too was on the edge.

You have a lot to live for. You may even be grateful someday that this woman is out of your life.

This card system your counselor suggested is crazy. SHE is the one who messed up! She's the one that should get the Red Card out of your house!

Why are you letting her control you?

A woman can't be with a man she can't respect. Right now you're on project doormat.

Man up. Quit letting her walk all over you.

An update. I guess I am writing because the support here helps me alot. Last night WW agreed to dinner. At least we had an hour of conversation. A little strained? Yes. But we got away togther and talked about the puppy my ten year old wants. For many years I could not even get my WW to go to dinner with me. At the moment she states her family is afraid of me (guess I have lost the support of my Mother in law now). Well, my family tells me my WW is a coniving (sp?) and heartless and selfish. I guess when the families get involved polarization is inevitable. This morning on the way to work (I am throwing myself into work to keep my mind off of things) I talked to my WW and she seems to want to keep our vacation plan to go skiing by ourselves for a few days starting next weekend. I see that as a plus. She has final exams in nursing school this week on Monday, Wednesday and Friday. When my WW told me that her family is afraid because of my love buster yelling which happened last weekend when I exposed (and I have a history of yelling but this was the first time since October last year)I calmly told my WW that my family feels she is mean, selfish and coniving - taking my income and emotionally abandoning me. She wanted to know who in my family said that so I told her. All of this was done by both of us very gently. Today she will be studying all day and I will work. We ended our conversation with mutual agreement to take the ski vacation alone together. I guess we will have to see if her mother will take care of our ten year old while we are gone. My ten year old has gone out of his way to tell me how much he loves me which is touching.
I am taking antiD now and feel better. The constant fear and hyper-vigilence that I have had and the re-visiting thoughts about the A('s) is not there. My PhD support is teaching me something called cognitive behavioral therapy to help me reject the disturbing images so that I stop reliving the past issues and focus on the future.
I am being told by my PhD that a single love buster now will doom the marriage so I have to be very vigilent.
So... maybe at this point there is some hope.
Thank you all for being here for me.
hurtingturkey

HT, have you spoken to her family personally? If they feel this way, it might be in order to call them up and offer an apology for losing your temper. Let them know you are trying to save your marriage but have been devastated by your W's affair. Ask for their support and ADVICE. They might be willing to support you in that case.

Also, why not call up Steve Harley and get his help in pulling this back together?

Thank you ML
My WW asked me to apologize to her mother this morning. I told her I would but my WW suggested now was not the time. On the moment my WW will not speak with Steve H because she is so angry about the exposure (she knows that is an MB strategy). I don't believe she will agree to Steve ever in the near future. It is interesting to see her try a little bit at making the marriage surivive a little longer. I may try Steve myself.
My WW's family is a touchy issue because the original affair was with her Step Dad's best friend. When he died in January my WW's mother and step father have been caring daily for several hours the wife of the POS OM who died in January of this year. There is a lot of denial. Its very complicated by that circumstance. I am getting lots of clinical help to try and beat the PTSD from my first marriage that has helped make this situation worse. Meanwhile I am trying to re-establish my relationships with my brothers and sister to strengthen my support system. They are all more than 1,000 miles away and I don't want to exhaust them but at least they are there for me now. If everyone does not mind I will sort of document things on this board to help me with some additional support as I need that now. Walking through the hospital yesterday and today at work I have been amazed at how friendly and outgoing the staff are. I can't forget that work is part of my support system right now. At least I have done a fairly good job leading things here. Maybe I have done a few things right in my life.
Blessings

hurtingturkey

I seriously doubt she is an honest source of information or a good judge in this regard. She is angry and is doing her best to punish you, in addition to only doing what is in her best interest. Does she want you NOT to speak to them so you can't undo the spin she plied them with about her affair?

What does she want you to apologize FOR exactly? There is no need to apologize for exposing her affair.

I think you do need to speak to them to undo the lies she told them.

HT, did her family facilitate this affair? Does the wife of the POSOM know about this affair?

HT, when you exposed to her family, did you give them accurate and complete information about the affair? What happened?

ML: I gave a fairly full accounting including a couple of e-mails and a local hotel receipt on a credit card. Once MIL learned that her ten year old grandson had been told she lit up (I believe she is afraid my ten year old will say something to her husband who is my WW's Stepfather. WW's Stepfather was best friends with POSOM). WW's stepfather is not in very good health. Sort of a mess not that this is ever clean.
MIL has now said "I am afraid that your husband will hurt you" to WW. Of course who knows what she has been told.... Clearly WW has be trashing me for some time to defend her actions.
I guess I am finally arriving at a point where what will be will be. I'm not quite ambibalent, I am just exhausted and I don't think I can do anything more. The next moves are up to WW in my book.
For the moment

You must tell FIL about WW and the OM.

HT, when you say the stepfather is not in good health, does this mean he is not lucid enough to be told? What about the OM's wife? Has she been told the truth? She needs to know the truth, and so does the SF if he is capable of handing such news.

And I am dubious of anything that your wife reports her mother has said. I believe she has embellished in order to make you feel worse. If that is the case, it makes me wonder if your MIL has known about the affair all along and has helped hide it. Is that the case?

MIL did not know about first A - with man who died in January who was best friend of FIL. MIL did know about second (sort of) but did not know for certain. May be in disbelief stage or just afraid for her daughter if I leave marriage (economic issues). I have made it clear I do not want to leave marriage but that I need a trustworthy mate. FIL has had two heart attacks in last four months and he grieved himself into the second heart attack at the funeral of the man who died in January (POSOM #1). Not sure he can handle it. The second A was with a male student at wife's nursing school this past year. Retired pilot going to nursing school along with his daughter. It seems this one is over and did not last long - WW realized it was error or POSOM #2 got his trophy and moved on. MIL definitely knew of the "friendship" with #2 and may have not known anything else until I exposed with e-mails and hotel info.
MIL is mostly PO about my ten year old being told based on what I know. MIL is also PO because I attempted to prevent her from taking ten year old out of our house shortly after the exposure. No question WW has embellished with her family - that began last year and even I have fallen victim to it.
Without question, WW has emotionally abused me for a decade by ignoring me (refusing to spend even a Saturday night dinner with me alone, bringing kids on anniversary dinners, over-spending and belittling me with the kids hundreds of times over my weight etc.).
I have continued to back off and simply be polite, respectful and I am going forward with our vacation plans to ski together this coming Saturday - Wednesday next week. I have even brushed WW's hair at bedtime till she has fallen asleep, rubbed her feet with lotion and her back. I am not chirping "I love you" etc. looking for something in return. In a twist suddenly WW is texting me cute messages about our dog, and on the phone she sounds more caring (tone, intonation of voice) than I have heard in years. Not sure what to make of it. I am making an effort to use humor and to be in good cheer. Anti-D definitely a helpful tool in that regard. Don't think I could do that without it. I am also working with personal therapist on blocking the negative thoughts, images etc. re: betrayal so that I do not further depress myself.
I am keeping the ball in WW's oourt for now and I am being supportive of her studying this week as she approaches final exam on Friday in nursing school. Funny story - WW submitted a take home test (took her 12 hours to do) that she had sweat blood on last weekend. College computer apparently did not save it and WW did not keep a copy on home computer. I pretended to go into HTML of ram memory on home PC. I deliberately "gibberished" it up and only gave her 80% of it. But it was enough for her on Sunday afternoon to spend two hours and finish it off leaving her time to study for a test on Monday which she passed. WW has a grade of 77 and needs to get a 79 on final exam to pass course. Of course I went into keylogger and recovered her exam question responses on Sunday and pasted it into a word document. I did get praise for that. She still doesn't know about keylogger (giggle... I am wondering when she will figure it out...). She used local library computer for most of her correspondence by e-mail. The exposed e-mails were from her e-mail "sent" file and she did leave the computer on and signed in so I told her that is where I got them from.
Maybe there is some hope here. Meanwhile, I have told the hospital that I am leaving at the end of my current contract (one year from now). I am keeping myself very busy, will help find a replacement and am working on a consulting practice for myself when I leave. Trying to keep structure in my life as this goes on. Perhaps if I am at home more in the future that will help if we can get to that point.
Meanwhile, I pray frequently, am keeping busy and getting support from my siblings and adult children.
MIL is going to watch our ten year old on the ski vacation.
Right now my gut tells me the ski vacation may be a time for becoming the friends WW and I were before we ever dated. Maybe that is where we need to start. I do not want to "imprison" WW in the marriage. But I don't wish to be imprisoned either. I am a good man, yes I have yelled at home (almost like clock work about once every three months) but I am not alone in that. WW has had her moments and the emotional abandonment of me has been significant and I see that now. No wonder the harder I tried in the marriage the more frustrated I became!
For the moment,this is where I am. My family continues to tell me I am crazy to give in to WW's request for 100% of everything if she files and while I was willing to do that even a month ago, I now see that differently.
I am reminded of something MIL said several months ago... "You can't love what you don't respect." Well, I am trying hard to respect myself now. I have my faults but I do realize that I am a good man in a bad situation. WW has the ability to be wonderful and gentle if she wants to. SO I guess the ball is in her court now. I would struggle without her, but I also realize that she has not been there for me for a very long time.
Its up to her.
Sorry for the long post. Its probably theraputic for me.
Blessings ML and others...

hurtingturkey
ME: me BS age 55 male
WW: age 48 female
Ours: age ten
Hers: 21 and 17
Mine: 21, 27 and 30
Original DD: April 26, 2010
2nd DD: Feb 1, 2010
Exposed 2/19/10

HT,

You said something that bothers me a lot. Now Mel or Pep might take exception to what I am about to say, but I firmly believe this. You said

Exposure is NOT an MB strategy. I firmly believe this and I think it demeans what Dr. Harley is getting at. What is Dr. Harley's strategy in my opinioon is that support, honesty, and information are the ONLY ways to survive an affair. I believe the data is very clear that this is true. The only way to acheive these things is if friends and family are in the loop and that requires that they know. Further, there is enormous documented evidence that children KNOW and sense a great deal during a beak up and they tend to assume it is their fault and this harms them. The ONLY way to address this is to give them the truth in an age appropriate manner.

You MIL needs to know this. Your W needs to understand this. AND most imporantly YOU need to understand this.

In case you don't sense it, I am very passionate about this. MB did not create honesty, openness, or support, it simply is pointing out the obvious. You are not going to get it unless you ask and that requires you tell people what is going on and what you need.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

JL, if you are saying that exposure is not the exclusive domain of MB, then I would agree with you. But if you are saying that MB does not advocate exposure, that would be a grossly inaccurate statement. Exposure IS a "MB strategy" as outlined in numerous writings, radio shows and speeches by Dr Harley. He calls it the "single most important step toward recovery." He has advocated it for YEARS and recently wrote:



Dr. Harley settled this issue once and for all in his 10-28-2009 newsletter "When should an affair be exposed" and is rewriting Surviving an Affair to include his advocacy of exposure. He was aware of board debates on this issue and wrote the newsletter to put the issue to bed. He began his newsletter:


AND




Case closed on whether or not exposure is a MB strategy....

Mel,

You missed my point. I am saying that the use of the term "strategy" implies that MB is advocating manipulating people with force or threats. Dr. Harley advocates honesty, support, and the truth for effective rebuilding or saving the marriage. Exposure has taken on a life of its own and is thought of as a tool.

Exposure is simply not a threat nor a tool. It is the only way to achieve honesty, support, and clarity in the situation. It is a shorthand way of saying; "reach out seek support and be honest with your spouse and those that surround your spouse and yourself. It isn't even a club. It is simply what you do when you seek to bring honesty into the marriage and when you seek support to protecting your marriage.

Honesty has a way of making affairs look rather tawdry. Support has a way of reenergizing the Bs to do what is so counter to our instincts.

My point is that exposure is not a wapon, it is what you do when you want to bring honesty into the equation. I know the term "nuclear exposure" is often used and I get what people are tyring to say. But to me it implies we are simply going to "blow" away a lot of stuff and hopefully the affair.

The WS often think it is being used in revenge or a way to add pain to their lives. I contend that Harley means it to bring honety to their lives and marriage and that definitely works against affairs

When a BS comes here we right tell them to expose the affair. But, we are really telling them is be honest and seek support. Thnk about Harleys concept of radial honesty. In a very direct way, exposure is application of that policy.

I think many WS's or WS's on their way to being FWS's would understand exposure much better if it is couched in the terms of seeking honesty and support for the BS and the marriage.

Those are my thoughts.

JL

Exposure is a two edged sword.

One side of the blade brings out the truth.

Which is needed to end the affair.

The other side of the blade brings pain, embarrasment, revenge. Whether all some or none of these things are wanted they will happen.

When the exposure sword blade stabs an affair the blade cuts with both edges.

The BS should not fear what exposure does. Iodine hurts but it is put on the cut to clean out the infection.

The WS should of kept their pants on. If they did there would not be a need to use the "iodine". The WS needs to grow up and own that their actions have caused the justifiable use of exposure.

Actually it IS a weapon...... against the affair.

I think JL it is you, not Mel who has this wrong. I think what Dr Harley has said takes away all doubt about the subject.

Actually, it always amazes me when people imply that there are good and bad reasons for exposure. It actually doesn't matter what the motivation of the person exposing is - it's still just as effective. The WS invariably hates it and sees it as revenge until the affair is busted and the cranial rectal extraction has taken place.

"Strategy" simply means a careful plan by definition and that accurately defines exposure. It is more than a tool, it is a weapon against the affair. It is the FIRST STEP in a careful plan ["strategy"] to recover the marriage. A careful plan devised to bring the marriage to a point where it can recover. Harley calls it the FIRST STEP towards recovery:



I have found that no WS will understand or accept exposure until the fog rolls off. It is like a falling down drunk who is furious because you took the car keys away. He might be angry that he can�t go drunk driving while he is drunk, but will be grateful when he sobers up. Exposure is the same way. And when a WS sobers up, they will not be angry, they will be grateful.

I actually agree with this statement. Whether exposure is motivated by strategy or revenge, whether it's delivered calmly or violently....the result is mainly the same and the wayward is going to hate it for obvious reasons. A wayward spouse doesn't care why they're being exposed....they just don't want to be outed because it complicates their selfish lives.

But, that doesn't mean that all exposure is created equal, and I think that HT is a perfect example of why. While exposure in any form may create the same effect on the affair, the delivery can create new problems for the BS. HT said:


And his MIL said:

I think it's important that when we describe exposure as "nuclear", we don't confuse anyone into thinking it means violent or destructive, because unfortunately some of these marriages are going to end anyway....and the demeanor of the BS will be examined when custody issues arise. It's natural for a BS to be angry...even loud....but there is an advantage (for the BS) if they can complete exposure while remaining as calm and controlled as possible. Since exposure in any form has the same effect of shedding light on the affair....why not choose the form that has the least negative repercussions for the betrayed spouse. It doesn't help HT to give people like his MIL ammunition to shoot back at him. Plus, the calmer the BS is....the more likely it is that the WS will be the one who looks hysterical and crazy.

kwim?

This is a very important point, which is why I often advocate remaining completely calm and even using talking points when exposing. I don't think he was ever confused by the term "nuclear," he simply lost his temper. HurtingTurkey knows this was not a proper way to treat his MIL. While the ACT of exposure should be "nuclear" to the affair, that does not mean exposure should be done by yelling and screaming and intimidating. It should be done calmly, rationally in a respectful plea for support.

HT, I hope you do follow up with my suggestion to call your MIL and apologize. You need her on your side and she can�t very well help your marriage if she is scared of your rages.

Well, I certainly believe in it. It is an impressive tool.

Although, my wife immediately went to a lawyer who told her it was harrassment. Then, her psychologist told her that Dr Harley was wrong. It was not her fault that her family turned on her after hearing what she had done. He told her it was my fault, because it was my decision to tell everyone. Regardless of what she had done, it was my decision and my actions that caused pain in a lot of people.

I guess when you pay someone $100/hr, they will tell you exactly what you want them to, especially when they hear her one-sided sob story. Either they are all foggy or she is lying again. I guess it doesn't matter which.

Anyway, her family was grateful to hear it, though - the truth that is. It explained a lot of her actions and validated what they thought. The point is that, in a great majority of cases, waywards will not appreciate you protecting their reputation. They are too consumed with infatuation for the other person and any positive actions you take will be taken for granted. Helping her cover the affair only prolongs it. Exposure is powerful, but be prepared for the wayward's wrath.

I must disagree. Exposure IS a weapon - and that is OKAY and JUST. An affair is EVIL and there is absolutely nothing wrong with using a weapon to fight evil.

The Bible tells us this in Ephesians 6:11-18 as a matter of fact...


Truth IS a weapon to fight evil. With all due respect, I think you are arguing semantics, JL...

Mrs. W

Mrs. W,

Absolutely I am arguing semantics. My point is I know a lot about weapons. I also know that using a weapon means intent to hurt. I also know that most often using a weapon is an option. Most BS's when they come here and are told to expose are told it is "a weapon to end the affair and save their marriage". Or at least the best weapon. They then often think "But I don't want to hurt Ws, I love him/her. They will be mad if I punish them with exposure."

And then we say, "YOU have to and it is recommend by Harley and is part of the MB approach."


My point is that exposure is NOT OPTIONAL. It is not a WEAPON. It very likely makes the WS mad, but honesty and support are crucial to the BS making it and Oh by the way, truth and honesty tend to put a crimp in an affair.

I believe and strongly believe that a marriage without honesty won't function well. I believe that someone trying to save a marriage and end an affair without honesty will not succeed or rarely so.

I BELIEVE that exposure is a REQUIREMENT for recovery because it brings truth and honesty back into the dynamics of the marriage.

Therefore, it is not about punishment, pain, etc. It is about HONESTY and it is about the BS seeking support. Until the BS understands this then even the form of the letter most are recommended to send to other people doesn't really make sense to them. We are NOT telling them to harm their spouse. Nor are we telling them to do this to cause pain although as TheRoad said, it does often do that.

WE ARE TELLING THEM THAT HONESTY AND THE TRUTH are required and I think that is what Dr. Harley is saying.

Think about it.

JL

I totally agree with you JL. You are an extremely wise man.

JL, you and I view weapons very differently then. I do not view them as "intent to hurt", I view them as a means to PROTECT - I view exposure as a DEFENSIVE WEAPON. The BS, the children AND YES, the WS need to be PROTECTED/DEFENDED from the evil that the WS has brought into the family. The use of a weapon isn't optional, imo, when your family is UNDER ATTACK, as is the case with adultery.

Exposure isn't intended to hurt the WS, and I never say that here - In fact I most often tell BSs that it is a means to RESCUE their spouse - as if they are lying on the floor of a crack house...The WS is hurt by their choice to commit adultery though, not by exposure.

Newbies are told that the affair should be brought out of the darkness and into the light with exposure. Many times the phrase "tsunami of truth" is used alongside exposure. Really it's talked about in many different ways here, so I'm not sure what it is that you have taken issue with. I don't see a need to reinvent the wheel.


No, they don't have to, but it is the best thing for all involved.



Again, semantics - I personally have no problem with calling exposure a weapon used to fight the evil of adultery, but you or anyone else here is certainly under no obligation to do so...totally cool by me...You can call it a cotton ball if ya want!


AGREE.


Absolutely agree with the above also.


Who says exposure is punishment? I don't. Again, though it isn't exposure that causes the pain, it's the adultery.


People here are told all the time that "honesty is the solution to adultery"...We don't disagree...I apologize JL, but again I really don't understand what it is that you have taken issue with - I think it's about perception...dunno...

Mrs. W

Now, THAT is wisdom. Great coherent post, MrsW. Of course a weapon is to PROTECT, unless in the hands of a criminal. A BS is not a criminal; he uses the WEAPON of exposure to run off the assault of an affair.

Mel,

I know you are from Texas and I am married to a Texas gal. A weapon whether to hurt or protect does so by causing harm or the threat of harm.

I am indeed talking semantics because I have seen in over a decade of being here so many BS reluctant to expose the affair because they think it is harmful. The term weapon is not a term of endearment. It is not synonym (sp) for honesty or a cure. It is a term for an instrument of harm whether used defensively or offensively.

It matters not what I think on one level and really doesn't matter what you think Mel or BK. What matters is how the newbie coming to this site for the first time sees it. And while Mrs. W may think a weapon is a defensive instrument others don't hear that.

But, there is little room for misinterpretation of the words honesty, and truth. If we used those words in juction with exposure I believe more BS's just coming here would do it with less angst.

JL

The only problem with using the words "honesty and truth" in regard to exposure, as opposed to using exposure as a weapon to attack the affair is that far too many BS show up here and think that THEY are also supposed to be honest and truthful about things they need to keep to themselves...such as their sources of information, their snooping, and these forums.

A BS must gird him/herself up for battle against the affair, so I think that calling exposure a "weapon" is a very good choice of words.

I'm disappointed to see that you appear to be joining in with the PC crowd, JL.

It "protects" by stopping the invader, a good thing. I am ok with calling it a weapon. I have been here almost a decade myself, and know the biggest fear is enraging the WS. Calling it some new name is not going to prevent that. You can call it whatever you choose, however, I seriously doubt you will successfully eradicate the FEAR of enraging the WS. Nor will calling it "truth" or "honesty" to a WS do anything to alleviate his rage.

But hey, you are free to call it whatever floats your boat.

Don't worry I will.

LC, if ever there was a none PC guy it is me.

But look at the title of this thread. "Was it a mistake?" How could he possibly think being honest is a mistake? But, he and others do.

I am not trying to sugar coat what has to be done. I would just like to see more BS's do it with less angst, because their situation is bad enough.

Words do have power and while I am not telling anyone how to say things. I am suggesting that if resistance is met, perhaps we should talk about honor and the duties of honesty. And that is what exposure is about.

JL

Well he's not the first BS to get taken in by his wife's threats post exposure and question if they did the right thing.

I agree with you JL - Exposure IS a weapon but it's intent is to destroy/harm THE AFFAIR not the WS. Why do you find that offensive?

Had you ever actually fought (oops there's a military term again) against an affair and fought to save your marriage from the onslaught of adultery you might care less about the semantics.

Fighting an affair IS a battle and it's appropriate to call the tools weapons.

I don't at all understand where anyone here has advocated dishonesty.

BK,

Will you folks read what I have said. I have not said that exposure is bad. On the contrary in my mind it is REQUIRED.

The issue is getting BS's to understand why it is required. Yes, they want the affair to end, but they often think they are hurting their WS's by exposing. In reality the best thing that can happen to the WS's although they don't know it is that their BS is honest and gets support. The fact that honesty also means shining light on the affair is great.

But, they need a leg to stand on and defend...in their own mind. I would have no trouble exposing, but then again I am a hard [censored] about this. I simply walked when my Fiance pulled this crap.

What I have learned here is that my response might not have been optimal. That there are other ways to look at things and handle things. And part of that is seeing the big picture.

Harley correctly points out in his policy of RAdical honesty, that honesty is required. He mentions it between W and H, but his advocation of exposure means it believes honesty is required if the affair is to be ended. He also points out that exposure often does not end the affair. But ultimately honesty by the BS helps the bes assess the situaton and seek support.

My whole pointed started with a comment by the originator of this thread. He could not seem to find the way to "defend" exposure. My response is that you don't defend it, you just look them in the eye and say HONESTY is where this marriage start to rebuild or end. In my world I would follow with "deal with it."


However, I am cognizant that we are talking about peoples lives and their futures when offering our suggestions so I would prefer that we find the best way to reach the BS and leave our emotions out of it. Hence I offered my thoughts about exposure.

I don't find it offensive that exposure might help end the affair. I am suggesting that perhaps more BS would be willing to use exposure and sooner if they realized it is simply bringing honesty and the truth back into the equation. Some folks are squeamish about weapons and they do view them as a means to hurt people. If that is their take, then they are going to be reluctant to use it and using that term to the WS or FWS is not going to help rebuild the marriage nor does it reinforce the idea that honesty is the watch word for a good marriage.

JL

PS: recall my comment originally was to the originator of this thread. Offering him the idea that he had other ways of explaining to himself and his W what he did and why. And frankly a BS should NEVER apologize for exposing because in my mind one should NEVER apologize about being honest.

PSS: Have I mentioned lately how much I HATE the latest change to this site where one has the input jumping around as one types? It is getting really annoying.

Semantics, baloney.

Exposure, tool or weapon the end result is the same.

In my best "Arnold" keyboarding voice, when you use either a tool or a weapon their will be "collateral damage".

One bullet can hit more then one object doing it's job. A saw will cause saw dust.

What about a knife. One the many multipurpose objects. It can be a tool and a weapon.

An affair is like a car about to run you over. Why stand there arguing over what shade of gray the car is?

While doing nothing to stop the the car. Exposure causes relief and pain. Do you not take a medicine because it will taste bad?? No, you take it because it will work.

From your original post and what I think most people are getting their back up about. You prefaced that remark by saying Mel and Pep may not agree (and indeed Mel didn't)

It is false to say that exposure is not a MB strategy which is where this all started. Dr Harley is of course a great advocate of honesty in marriage but the ONLY way a marriage will survive an affair is if the affair ENDS. As Dr Harley himself has said, exposure is the start of recovery - but that is because in many cases it is the END of the affair.

I don't think anyone would have even glaced at your comments if you hadn't said it wasn't a MB Strategy because it most certainly is.

Many BS's are searching for any possible reason not to expose. Saying exposure is not a MB strategy gives them something to cling onto.

Ah - there's something we can all agree on!

The word weapon implies that there is an attack or battle around you. In an active A, this is true.

A weapon is also something used to protect yourself or your property, in an active A, this is again a very true scenario.

Quite a few BS come here totally emotionally beat down. Many believe that they are the cause of the A, or deserve the consequences they are putting upon themselves.

Giving them the idea that they need to protect themselves, their families and their livelyhood is appropriate. Exposure is a great weapon, and I for one, missed my opportunity to use it, and paid dearly.

Time for an update from the man who nuked....
My WW continues each day to show just a tad more caring. The examples are subtle. There is no question in my mind that my ten year old son crying for hours after my WW took off with him to MIL's home has had an impact on her. I suspect, no, I believe that my WW thought there were no consequences to A's as long as "what he (me, and the children) doesn't know won't hurt him / them. Well, exposure clearly defined the impact of her actions. Does she in her extremely self defensive mind set want her to blame me still? Yes. But now she knows that her actions hurt others. And as much as I want to be loved by her, now I have to admit that I needed her defenses to be attacked. I search back in my mind to a time when I was in college and thought very little (and had no real guilt then and it took many years for that to show up and its still there today) of having a girlfriend at home while developing a girlfriend in college. But I now know it was wrong to have done that. Eventually I chose the girlfriend in college for two years (after about 6 months of playing both sides of the fence). Then I turned around after college and reversed myself. I guess that is the best I can do to relate to an A. Its not quite the same thing but its the best insight I can relate to from my own life. I think I would have dropped the college girlfriend had I been exposed during the time I played both sides of the fence....
The real weapon that was played in my situation was all the emotional abuse of withdrawl from support of me, the A's and the trashing of me for verbal abuse. If you want to save a marriage with a partner suceptible to using fantasy A's to deal with life's pressures then you have to force your Wayward to choose. I am terrified but I am growing stronger each day now. Perhaps the little bit of increased caring I see each day is helping me grow stronger. The casualty of this is that I can feel myself putting up a wall and for the first time in 12+ years I am no longer in love with my wife. Maybe that will come back. Right now I am hoping that we become the friends we were before we ever began to see one another. That is goal number one. I do not want her "trapped" in marriage with me. If she cannot atart to see the wonderful, giving man that she has been married to, well... then the marriage probably should end no matter what it does to me. I am realizing that I cannot beat myself up anymore or think about "why I have never been good enough."
Each day I pray that I can forgive her weakness and also help her become strong but I know also that I cannot control that. It is her choice now. I am sad that I do not feel in love. Its a terrible tragedy to feel that. Do I love my WW? Yes. Am I ever going to beg her to love me again? No. I cannot build my self-worth on her opinion of me. I have some negative characteristics. Yelling - a nasty temper. Have I been working on that with my whole heart? Yes. But I am a human being and there has been lots of provocation.
If my WW decides I am her best friend, then we have a foundation to build on. No matter what I do, I cannot make that happen. That is her choice and my attempts over the years to try and make that happen have only frustrated me and led to angry outbursts.
I also realize that my WW has her own weaknesses and expecting perfection from me while emotionally abusing me with withdrawl and A's are just as bad or perhaps even worse than anything I have ever done. I believe I can get past that but I will not continue ever again to live in fear of her withdrawl and use of fantasy A's to make life enjoyable.
Those are bondaries that I have to set for my own emotional well being.
Exposure is what my managerial hat would define as high risk but potentially high gain. Eventually when I did it, I was really drawing a line in the sand and saying NO MORE. Never again.
I was ready to do myself in 24 hours after I exposed. Guilt, loss and fear of the future. No one should ever be pushed to that point. And I was.
If ther is one thing about exposure that needs to be addressed it is that the response from the Wayward can be so intense, and the guilt that the victim spouse feels at that time so intense that they need to have a plan that includes lots of support from the second they expose. I lead a lonely life of organizational leadership (the boss can't have work friends). My family is all I have. My grown children are more than a thousand miles away as are my siblings. My wife's family has become my support system so my wife took them away from me leaving me with no support to care for me. I was too embarrassed to call on my siblings for support. My heroic Marine son kept me alive with phone support from his duty station thousands of miles away. Without question, I needed support and I did not plan any. Exposure is the hardest thing I have ever done. Essentially I called the question and asked for a vote.
If I had not done it (and I wish I had not been angry when I did it), I was dooming myself to a life where I truly believed it was my fault. All my fault.
I have thoughts a couple of times a day "Why have I never been good enough?" But 48 hours after exposure... I started to realize that I am a good man. I am not perfect. I do have faults, but they do not belong being exagerated to the extreme that defines me as unloveable.
I suppose my income has led me to never think of marriage in economic terms. I need and want a best friend. No wonder I was so frustrated for so long. My wife was my best friend but she stopped being even a luke warm friend to me.
I cannot keep the marriage going any longer by myself. I will not accept a child centered marriage. I need more than that.
So I will define exposure from my very recent experience as a simple line in the sand. If exposure has helped my WW to see consequences are involved and that a life philosophy of "what he doesn't know won't hurt him" then in my case it has been worth it. But if the members of this board advocate exposure, PLEASE, please spend a thousand words telling the victim preparing to expose to have a support system ready and informed of what is about to happen. If I did not love my WW I would not have had teh emotional turmoil but I did. But I did. Lacking support in those first 24 hours was actually my big mistake. Did I make a mistake in exposing? Only if I was not prepared for D. I really wasn't. I so often remember my MIL's words when I first talked to her about infidelity... "You can't love what you don't respect." Well, I have not done a good job of respecting myself and I accepted my WW's view of me as not being worthy of respect. No longer. I am a good man but I am not perfect. My WW can be wonderful and gentle but she has not been. If she cannot see me through the fog, and respect me then there is no future. I now respect me for finally standing up for myself. I think of my ten year old son quietly looking at me after his bed time prayer (when he returned to my home after I nuked) and admire his insight "Dad, I am sorry." He was not talking about himself. He understood my pain.
If and when my WW gets to that point there is a future.
Meanwhile I have to try to prevent any angry outbursts. I was doing well at that but I was not prepared to hold myself in check when my WW had an angry outburst. Now I think I can do that - we all learn by making mistakes and I don't think I will make that mistake again.
Meanwhile... my WW received an A on the final exam she had yesterday and if she can just get a 79% on her exam on Friday she will be on the home stretch at college. I am supporting her 150% to do that. Friday we will leave for our first vacation alone since our honeymoon 12 years ago. I hope for the best but prepare for the worst. Stress is a major factor in relationships and my WW's schooling has contributed mightily to our issues. It would be nice if she can pass and it would put her in a happy mindset for our ski vacation. Perhaps with some luck we can become friends again.
Blessings everyone here. Time to get to work.

hurtingturkey

HT, this is the most positive post I have seen you write and I so glad to see you turning around in a positive direction. I believe that standing up for your marriage by exposing has helped you tremendously in every way. Rather than feeling helpless and lost, you feel more in control of your life. {{{{{{{{{hurtingturkey}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}


I agree with this. Like you said, there is nothing worthy of respect in enduring abuse for years on end. Nothing. I have watched so many beleaguered BS�s magically change from serfs to knights, in Bobpure�s words, by taking charge of their lives and refusing to be at the mercy of a wayward tyrant. Affairs and lies thrive on secrecy; exposure ruins all that. Keeping it a secret gives it power. Exposure erodes that power.


This point cannot be emphasized enough. Many BS�s are shocked at the reaction of the WS, which scares them to death. I don�t think a BS needs to be prepared for divorce, though. I think they need to prepare for divorce if they DON�T expose, because that is usually the result.

See, I look at it another way: I feel empowered to know that I have a 'weapon'. I have also looked at exposure as a tool, but that just didn't give the same power to the exercise as the word "weapon" did.

Weapon = battle. The battle to save a M that has been damaged by adultery. Tool = screwdriver. To screw the lid back on my 2 qt saucepan. Nope - it's just not the same amount of oomph for me.

When I was a newb, and learning about exposure (which had already happened in my sitch by the time I got here) it was a totally new concept. It was an eye-opener to see that exposure was recommended, and I heartily confirm that it was a weapon in my case - the OWH used it as a means of revenge. No matter, same outcome - it ended the A.

Just my two-bits.

HT,

I am delighted to see your post. Enjoy your vacation and let us know how things are going.

God Bless,

JL

Time to check in.
Our ski vacation went well. We both missed the kids especially our ten year old. On the plane ride out I was in an airport book store and decided to lighten things up by buying my wife a book entitled "How to change your husband by Friday". She actually began reading it. It was funny to watch the faces of nearby passengers who could read the title of the book while my WW was sitting next to me smiling and eventually laughing as she read the book. Every so often she would ask me to read a page or two while exclaiming (with laughter) "this is you." It felt tremendous to see the author's humour allow her to laugh.
We have been home for two days and I am at work this morning. She IS trying. It feels genuine now. I am trying to take things a day at a time but for the first time in more than a decade, my WW seems more grown up. Life's disappointments are not all my fault anymore in her eyes. Its like watching her growing up. Maybe the same thing is happening to me. When she criticized me on vacation a few times over minior things I gently told her that I was going to keep a tick list of the number of improvements that I needed to make. She smiled.
The time together was clearly a big help. As much as I wanted to ski the double diamond trails I stuck to the intermediate trails to ski with her and we did have a good time.
My WW failed her tough course by two points so she (at my recommendation) is taking it over immediately. She was registered to take another course but called her instructor and was given an exception to take the course over immeditely. She will pass this time I am sure. We have an afternoon shopping trip planned today when I finish up with work and dinner tonight by ourselves. We took our ten year old out for a simple sandwich dinner last night. School starts for my WW on Monday so I will just try and support and help her all I can.
For now, our friendship is coming back and I am grateful to God for that. In addition I am realizing that I cannot allow my WW to define me. That is my job. I am not sorry that I exposed. I just should not have done it in anger. I do believe that exposure has leveled the playing field of our marriage and that we now both know that we each are accountable for the future. Meanwhile I am working as hard as I can to discourage the negative images and thoughts of a past that no one can change from interfering with today.
Blessings to all of you.

hurtingturkey
ME: me BS age 55 male
WW: age 48 female
Ours: age ten
Hers: 21 and 17
Mine: 21, 27 and 30
Original DD: April 26, 2010
2nd DD: Feb 1, 2010
Exposed 2/19/10

Good job, HT.

Did you read my thread about the importance of Undivided Attention in rebuilding romantic love? Go check this out: here

ML
Thank you. I just read the thread and printed it out to read in my car a few times for future reference.
I will share this with my WW if I sense the timing is right or otherwise keep it to myself for the moment.
Blessings

hurtingturkey
ME: me BS age 55 male
WW: age 48 female
Ours: age ten
Hers: 21 and 17
Mine: 21, 27 and 30
Original DD: April 26, 2010
2nd DD: Feb 1, 2010
Exposed 2/19/10

Its almost too painful to jump back on the board. Its been a month now since my last post. I received alot of good advice here. My former WW continues to demonstrate effort towards out marriage. There are days when its more obvious than others. We have had some outside issues to address and that has made us both join together to address them. They involve my former WW and college grades and an unfortunate issue with an instructor that are in process. I don't want to call it recovery as to where we are. I am not sure what it is. Its much better I can say that.
Well, why am I here? I feel that somehow, I have lost something. Over the past few weeks I do not feel that I am in love with my former WW. We are following the basic plan of MB and we are spending time together. But neither of us will touch the A issue and maybe that is for the best. Somedays like today I just feel this great loss. For years and years I was in love. It motivated me, it gave me strength and it helped me through the difficult days.
I hate admitting it but I am drifting further away emotionally from my WW. I feel like I am going through the motions. Perhaps she is too. I really don't know. There are moments of affection but that special something is gone. I will continue all of the MB strategies for this stage. But I feel I hve lost something that I will never get back.
Since there are many members here who have gone through the revelation process I am wondering if what I am experiencing is normal. Why can I not just enjoy that I have a chance now. That we have a chance now.?
I want so very much to feel that feeling I always felt. I want my former WW to feel that.
Thoughts from any of you who have been here?

Thanks

hurtingturkey
ME: me BS age 55 male
WW: age 48 female
Ours: age ten
Hers: 21 and 17
Mine: 21, 27 and 30
Original DD: April 26, 2010
2nd DD: Feb 1, 2010
Exposed 2/19/10

I don't know if this will be any help, but here's my two cents worth. Yesterday when I was at the counsellor, he told me to consider my "old" relationship dead and over. He said from here on out, it's building "new" one that will be much stronger. It really stuck with me....and in a way it's a relief to think of it that way because, why would I want to stay in a relationship where WH is unhappy and cheating on me? But yeah, I feel a great loss over it too....

I hope your feelings can be rekindled. As I understand it's just a matter of time to get past all the neg feelings. Recovery takes a while (I'm not even there yet!).

HT,

You are coming up on 1 years since D-day. It is very common for the one years anniversary to be a real biggie with respect to asking oneself deep questions. You are drifting because it is likely you are not getting your needs met. You still have a need to address the A. Perhaps I can offer you something to consider.

Why don't you consider asking yourself, "What have I learned from the A? What have I learned about myself, marriage, my W, my goals, and my ability to handle things?"

Then it might be prudent to ask your W the same thing. What has she learned from her affair? This is not discussing the affair or the why's? But inquiring about something very important. If nothing is learned, then nothing is gained. Does this makes sense?

God Bless,

JL

HT, I suspect your true feelings are coming out now that you are not so distracted with getting her affair out in the open. Her behavior was bound to erode your love for her. She hasn't met your needs effectively in a very long time. There has no lovebank building in a very long time.

Are you scrupulously setting up time for undivided attention and meeting those top 4 needs? That is the key to rebuilding your love for each other.

p.s. my H's affair was such a lovebuster that it took me 1+ years to get my feelings back for him. I did not do plan A either. You wore yourself out for a long time trying to resolve this. That had to have had an effect.

ML & P&H thank you both very much for your comments and support.
You have given me some positive things to put in my pipe and smoke. Someday I am going to do a survey on here of all the betrayed spouses who have started smoking. Trying to kick now. I had been clean for 11 years till this issue popped up in my life. I know its a love buster to stink of smoke so its time I stop that one in its tracks and I definitely re-addicted myself!
Again Thank you for the kindness.

hurtingturkey
ME: me BS age 55 male
WW: age 48 female
Ours: age ten
Hers: 21 and 17
Mine: 21, 27 and 30
Original DD: April 26, 2010
2nd DD: Feb 1, 2010
Exposed 2/19/10

I worry about you, friend. [[[[[[[[[[[[[Hurtingturkey]]]]]]]]]]

What do you think about coaching with Steve again and getting his opinion?

You are most welcome, HT!! All the best {{{{{{hurting turkey}}}}}}

ML

I would like to get back with Steve. I have guessed that my FWW would not want to go there again. I won't know until I ask I guess. My FWW has had some very bad things happen in college with a professor - student conflict (she the student). Its too long a story to write about and off topic anyway. Suffice to say my FWW really believes that People are Good if you just appeal to them (in my older posts that is one of the characteristics I have consistently seen in my fww... a poor understanding of other people's self interest and behavior). This time she complained to her Dean about a professor only to have the Professor learn of the "in confidence" complaint fromt he Dean. And she wonders why the professor has stepped on her every time she gotten a chance.
ANYWAY... this issue will be appealed to a student faculty court next week and then its time to ask her to try Steve again.
Meanwhile I have really made progress in avoiding poorly received behaviors (yell, threaten, schream etc.). I am doing my best. I am also separately from marital issues seeing at Pschologist who is working with me on my poor self image issues. Lots of digging on that and it goes way back but that is a discussion for elsewhere.
Again thank you for the suggestions and advice.

hurtingturkey
ME: me BS age 55 male
WW: age 48 female
Ours: age ten
Hers: 21 and 17
Mine: 21, 27 and 30
Original DD: April 26, 2010
2nd DD: Feb 1, 2010
Exposed 2/19/10

I guess the last few days have been difficult for me. So I am returning to posting about me.
Its clear my FWW is showing lots of effort.
And yet as my previous posts in April note, I am drifting further away. I have become confident that I can act like a good husband. I am doing so. I no longer am afraid that I will have an angry outburst. I can now confidently respond to anngry emotion without an angry behavior. That feels so good and is a result of a lot of work and help.
But my need for details remains and my FWW just will not talk about it so I avoid it.
The result is that I am drifting futhre apart emotionally. I find that sad and even tragic. When we do things together I am mostly emotionless inside even if I smile on the outside. I have explained this to my FWW gently and certainly not often. I have not couched it in terms of "give me details" type demands. I am trying to open up "What have we both learned from this" type of discussion finally. I cannot force her to talk about it however. Meanwhile I am still hurting very much at times and hurting overall.
This is tough stuff.
I think about my 22 year old who had to kick in doors in Iraq and enter buildings with his M4 rifle and wish I had his courage and character.
Maybe I am just a whiner but this stuff really hurts and its hard to take it out of my mind.
Just wanted to write for a moment.
Blessings to all here.

hurtingturkey
ME: me BS age 55 male
WW: age 48 female
Ours: age ten
Hers: 21 and 17
Mine: 21, 27 and 30
Original DD: April 26, 2010
2nd DD: Feb 1, 2010
Exposed 2/19/10

Quit avoiding conflict. Tell her what you need. If she refuses to give you what you need, then divorce her. No man should resort to being a doormat for an emotionally abusive woman. Chances are when you start the divorce process, that's when she'll open up and give you what you want.

HT, that is not a very honest approach. You can't very well expect her to be honest when you are not practicing the same. I would never GET it in a million years if you said that to me. A more honest approach would be to tell her honestly that you want a marriage where you are both in love in a happy, romantic marriage.

Tell her that dishonesty about her affair hurts you and prevents the recovery that would effect a happy marriage. Print this out and hand it over to her:


HT, you have been through quite alot, my friend. Don't stop now. See this through to the end. Lead your marriage out of the darkness. I know you can do this.

Melody Lane:
I think the saying is "you are good people" .
I have come to trust your advice more than you might realize and you did not give up on me early on.
I wonder how many lives you have touched.
I wonder if you realize how you change and make things better in
this world. Okay, the Irishman in me will stop gushing and just say thank you.
And hopefully not frustrate you by listening but not heeding your advice...
I printed the page and the excerpt.
I will read and re-read the page above and prepare to gently but
firmly address the issues above. I know this is the next step.
Although I have read that page in Dr. Harley's book, I never
identified with it as much as I did just now.

Hurting Turkey
ME: BS age 55 male
FWW: age 49 female
Ours: age ten
Hers: 22 and 17
Mine: 22, 27 and 30
Original DD: April 26, 2010
2nd DD: Feb 1, 2010
Exposed 2/19/10

hurtingturkey, thank you for your kind words. I know you can see this through to the end....

I am having a VERY bad day with my thoughts beginning to move towards giving up on my / our marriage. No progress. For my own sanity I wonder if I should give up. Does anyone give up? I am very sad today.
Hurtingturkey

Whats happening to upset you, HT?

Melody Lane, Even just your question showing concern made me feel better. I just could not write on this board. Sometimes it is so painful because I know that my WW needs to tell me the WHO.
I have even decoded (with an experts help) a portion of the tape recording I made that now makes more clear that she stayed in a major city with the man. It took the assistance of a linguist to catch the words and accurately express them.
I want to love and now I am afraid. On my WW's side, I suspect she is afraid of my reaction (my history of yelling or verbal abuxe). I am doing well in keeping myself in check but inside my head (even with counseling help), I am in pain most days. Yesterday was one of the worst days as was the 8/15 post. I made up my mind NOT to try and "guilt" or "logic" or "lovingly" coax out of my WW the WHO. I am somewhat certain its over but.... Anyway, I just made myself be calm and kind and loving when I came home. It turned into a gentle evening with even some hugging and kissing (I suppose that might make people laugh but I love to kiss). I was better off for the moment to let it be. But in truth its killing me inside and I am serious. Today I am happy just because of the closeness last night. But I know or fear that I know I am being deceived....
I still daydream of leaving in the hopes that if I leave maybe then I will find out if she really loves me and then my question will have to be answered before I could return home.
Its hard.
Maybe I have it better than some here. Maybe I don't. I may just be a meal ticket.
I feel I cannot upset my WW while she is finishing her nursing school studies. That means waiting now till December. Some days are really, really hard and without God's help I do not think I could bear to go on. Other days are okay. But happy days... I don't have them anymore.
Tomorrow is my birthday. I don't want any recognition. I am unafraid to be 56 years old. I am afraid that I will die with the question on my lips... WHO???
Just thanks for all your support. I am trying and at least I have become a better man and husband through all this to date.
I don't like who I was when I yelled and screamed to get my way.

hurting turkey
ME: BS

hurtingturkey, thanks for the update. I was worried about you after the last post. I am so sorry this is still hanging over your head.

HOW can this be resolved in a way that does not involve anger or rage, but still satisfies your NEED to know how? I don't think waiting to resolve this is going to help, do you? It is too upsetting to you.

I know you mentioned before that you counseled with Steve Harley. Do you think he could persuade your wife to come clean?

Happy Birthday, friend!!

Melody L
I guess its the HOW that constantly occupies my mind. With the help of cell phone records I am fairly certain I have his telephone #. Slowly, painfully, once every two weeks or so I place a call from a pay phone and ask for someone by name. That has (I hope) eliminated two candidates of about nine male students that she has attended nursing school with. If I get a match (its either D___, G___, M___, T____, S____ or T___) with this method, I am fairly sure I can then tell my FWW I know she went to St. Louis with _________ (insert the name). From my tape recording I know the exact week it happened (FWW referenced something in the tape that lets me know what week she went to St. Louis with him.
I think the specific knowledge of where she went, when and the name will likely create the dynamics for it to come out.
Today, as I awakened early to go to work (where I am now) and my FWW heard me and got out of bed to make coffee and share some quiet conversation before she starts her studying again. I have a bunch of soccer games to referee this afternoon at a tournament and I am looking forward to that. The last game will include our eleven year old's team so I am looking forward to that. Some days are just so hard.
I am so much luckier I know than many. My income has always been way above average but I really live modestly. Material things just don't mean that much (maybe because I have the ability to get them). My point in this ramble is that to me, marriage has never been about economics. I married for love. Period. I married to love and to be loved. I would rather live in a cardboard box than live in a marriage where my wife stays in the marriage for economic reasons or for the kids.
Trust me, when your earnings are the only reason your spouse stays, no amount of money in the world is worth it. You Can't Buy Love! That is my greatest fear - that my FWW is only here for my income.... That makes me feel so worthless.
The group of men I belong to who are reforming (or attempting to reform) habits of verbal abuse advises me that it can take one to two years before a verbally abused spouse will find it "safe" and I know from reading here that it will take me at least a year to recover once the rest of the story is out of the bag if it ever comes out....
I am struggling but you would be proud of the change in my responses to difficulties in home life. I finally am confident that I can keep my volume and disposition in check - even when my FWW does something that hurts. I know too that she has emotionally abused me for many years and there is nothing that cuts like cheating does.
At times I have wanted revenge. Even have thought about a revenge A. I am just not the type and besides I was never attractive. Sometimes I have often described attractive women as having "pretty woman's disease." They will get hit on. I have never had to really worry about that one though sometimes females attempt to flirt with men in management positions and I have occassionally noticed that. Its never been something I found flattering... it always made me very uncomfortable.
I still love many things about my FWW. She is a very good Mom most of the time and she really does try hard with her school work and I love her gardeing and landscaping around our home and her decorating (sometimes its too feminine for me but I deal with it). But the intimacy is lacking between us. One day not to long ago my FWW said "Its so easy for you to talk about yourself." And I guess it is for me. I sort of expect it to be that easy for her and it is obviously not. There was a time though early in our relationship when she uncovered parts of her soul. Then one day we argued and I tossed something she had divulged to me back at her in a very hurtful way. And I think she vowed at that time to never tell me about herself again. It has stuck. Why she doesn't realize that I cannot feel safe until she opens up to me about WHO is a puzzle to me. I worry that he might still be in the wings. Why is she protecting him over me? You know the drill of questions that BS's ask themselves everyday. Again, she may be protecting herself. Waiting for the next blow up (one day I charted to the best of my recollection my history of yelling... almost every three months like clockwork...). What a terrible habit to have had.
Anyway... I am okay for today.
I journal everyday (almost) in my group of reforming verbal abusers. I know I was far from the worst - perhaps even one of the milder ones. But I am determined to fix me as much as I can and to never return to that mode of attempting to win by verbal force. One picture I keep in my mind is a cartoon that shows a male yelling at a cowering female with a fist coming out of his mouth. Words can hurt. Often now I rage at myself in my mind. Why wasn't I smarter about all this. Why didn't I see what I was doing. I really didn't until I awakened one day. My FWW tried to tell me I was hurting her by yelling. It was all so normal to me (it was how we grew up) and my defenses were so strong I just did not see it. Clearly my FWW is happier without me attempting to control with volume and sharp words and witty zingers attempting to win arguments. And I am happier with me.
Now if she could just put her defenses aside and see herself. That is why thinking about Plan B makes some sense to me. If I do leave will it force her to look in the mirror like I did?
I don't regret my exposure.
I don't regret my snooping.
Well, I am trying to hang in there.
Thanks for the Birthday wish.
Blessings

ME: BS age 56 male
FWW: age 49
Ours: age 11
Hers: ages 22 & 17
Mine: ages 22, 27 & 30
Original DD: April 26, 2009
2nd DD: February 1, 2010
Exposed: 2/19/10
Struggling to know the WHO for #2

Checking in once again. I continue to work on me with a local therapist. I can never say I have beaten being verbally abusive, but I can proudly say I no longer fear that I will be. I know my FWW can see the difference. My eleven year old son has even spontaneously told me the can see the difference. Today's report: Well I know who #2 was/is. Reasonably certain he is out of the picture. It took all sorts of scheming to actually verify who it was even though I had his cell phone #. I am 100% sure of who it was / is. Honestly, great relief in knowing that part of the puzzle. Tremendous relief. My self hatred at having allowed yelling to damage my marriage (honestly like old faithful I cooked off about every three months on schedule). I always felt better - and of course my wonderful, gentle FWW felt worse - her generalized anxiety disorder reacting to my tantrums. Maybe I am finally accepting some of the hurt and accepting some of my own human frailties and failures. I am working hard to be a better me. Only in the last two days have I really stopped hating myself. I realized this process is important because I can only change me no matter how much I want to change my FWW.
So... two things have changed.
1. My need to know the who it was / is and has been satisfied as a result of serious scheming on my part and I feel much better. (Of course now I want to know what he looks like...)

2. My self hatred for all of this is significantly diminished.

Ther result... at least for yesterday and today, I feel a bit better. Maybe there is some truth to time heals?
Blessings

ME: BS age 56 male
FWW: age 49
Ours: age 11
Hers: ages 22 & 17
Mine: ages 22, 27 & 30
Original DD: April 26, 2009
2nd DD: February 1, 2010
Exposed: 2/19/10

Your FWW chose not to tell you herself?

I have a question. I haven't read all of your story, I probably will here in a bit. But...

What has your wife done to earn the 'F' in FWW, if YOU had to do the snooping and work to determine who OM#2 is?

Part of getting the 'F' is full transparency, and helping the VICTIM (you) of the adultery in whatever they need for recovery, here the need to know the identity of OM - evidenced by the relief you feel at identifying him.

You seem to be taking a lot of blame for HER behavior.

No - your abuse is not good. It is terrible. But - your 'wonderful, gentle' wife didn't cheat because you abused her. I would say if she left you in the dark about OM#2 then she is in no way wonderful, gentle, or a FORMER WW.

Time may be healing, or you could be playing the sweep it under the rug game, in that case expect all this to rear it's ugly head again in a few years. I don't think you're dealing with this turkey.

She told me about #1 after I exploded on our anniversary. # 2 I only learned about by tape recording her in her car and I actually caught her talking to herself and justifying that he "was something she needed then to feel good about herself." The denial on this continues to this day. I cannot push on it as that has gotten me nowhere. She is struggling through nursing school and gets rattled terribly easy by instructors, tests etc. I do believe she is former at this point. When I pushed last winter spring she failed her courses in school and so I am sort of stuck till she graduates (hopefully mid December). I have waited this long... and it is easier now. No I know we will never a good marriage till it is out in the open. I have not even told her that I now know without question who it was. The healing going on is not the marriage it is me.
I have been immersed in self hate beyond anyone's immagination. I don't feel safe so Vibrissa I don't disagree with you. We have the same end game design.
When she finally learns that telling me #1 was "just a friend" what this board calls "EA" .... I will begin to feel a little safer. I continue to think that Plan B once she graduates may be the only way (High Risk / High Gain strategy) to make it come out if it is ever to come out. I cannot live in fear for the rest of my life.
Having done well with elimination of my yelling.... I have also probably bottled up some anger. Really just realized how pissed I am after my previous post today. But I have learned to seperate my anger emotion from my actions. But I have to tell you I am wicked pissed (my New England roots showing)!
I did not plan to look at the board for a couple of weeks and decided over lunch to come back and admit that I am SOOOOOOOO ANGGRRYY! Funny but since I did not have the release of yelling anymore, I didn't realize just how pissed I really am. Better that I tell this board how angry I am than risk the love buster of yelling at her about it.
So I am PISSED OFF. I did NOT deserve this. If my yelling was so bad she could have left me, divorced me etc.
Instead she chose an action that if I ever found out about it was sure to virtually kill me. That is incredibly selfish and incredibly mean. And to continue to not tell me when she knows I am suffering is horrible. Its a little easier for me to deal with because I ignored all her warning about what my yelling did to her (it was normal in my family growing up). I just did not see what it did to her and even now I don't understand how I could have missed the pain it caused her.
But... she has seen real reform from me. I have acknowledged my yelling to her family and to mine. I have demonstrated that I can break the pattern of verbal abuse (mostly volume and witty comments).
Yup, I am ANGRY. But I will not take it out on her. That would do nothing good at this point (it never did. Why try and make it work now.). Heart to heart talks havenot worked either.
At some point (when she graduates I will have to decide to sweep it and live with it or leave).
I don't feel safe.
Well, had to say it.
Thank you for being there.

ME: BS age 56 male
FWW: age 49
Ours: age 11
Hers: ages 22 & 17
Mine: ages 22, 27 & 30
Original DD: April 26, 2009
2nd DD: February 1, 2010
Exposed: 2/19/10

No, she isn't. She is not former. She's just not CURRENTly wayward. But she is in NO WAY former. You don't push - you make her changing her ways to those that are completely transparent and honest a condition of recovery. Go read

Wulffpack_girls's thread in Recovery Start here

THAT is what a wayward wife WORKING on her 'F' looks like.

Your wife hasn't earned that F and giving it to her without her earning it is not only enabling, it is disrespectful to the wonderful women who HAVE done the work it requires to earn that F.


It isn't YOUR fault she failed, it's HERS. You are not only enabling her, you are disrespecting her by keeping her from being accountable for her own actions. She isn't a dog or a child who doesn't know better. She is an adult woman who can take the consequences of her actions and do the hard work to repair the damage she's caused.

You sound like you are in a lot of pain. This is something a wife working on becoming a FWW would be HELPING you with.

She isn't.

You aren't in recovery.

It is good that you are working on yourself. You have a lot of work to do there. Are you taking anger management classes to help you deal with the anger?

I STRONGLY urge you to work on your plans for Plan B. You CANNOT sweep this under the rug. CANNOT. You can't just 'deal with it' and 'get over it' you really can't. The anger and resentment that will cause in you will destroy you.

Your wife is wayward and unrepentant. She is abusing you as we speak.

Vibrissa: I have been working with a female therapist more than once a week for eleven months on anger management. I actually believe it is a blessing to realize that I am ANGRY at my FWW.
Today, aftern eleven months of work I can finally recognize anger and act appropriately anyway. Its almost cheerful - gleeful to be able to type that. I CAN BE ANGRY and not hurt anybody. I stopped hurting my family months ago and now, suddently I am not hurting me anymore! That is a victory for me that I have to celebrate! What liberation not to be chained to an emotional tantrum when I let myself feel anger. I guess you would have to be me to know how far I have come on this issue. Last December I did nothing but worry that now that I realized yelling was wrong that I might yell anyway. I was so used to yelling that I could not easily be sure I could prevent myself from yelling. So admitting that I am angry with her does not mean I am going to yell or that I feel like yelling. I don't.
I have been enslaved by a pattern of behavior for years that hurt those I love and me. Today, I feel fredom from it for the first time and that brings a smile to my lips because although it may make things better for my FWW, it actually rewards me many times more.

Be certain I know very well I am not in recovery. The casualty that really hurts me the most right now is that I finally fell out of love with my FWW and I had been totally in love with her for 12 years +.
The unrepentant part of her behavior is more than a little troubling. Its total frustration at times! But at the same time, I have been there as a reforming verbal abuser and it was not until discovery of the A occurred that I took a long look in the mirror and dived into the books on verbal abuse written by Patricia Evans and saw myself. Since I am 56 years old, homely to begin with (typed with a smile), and shy everywhere except at work, I have no intentions of attempting to awaken my wonderful and gentle FWW with an A of my own.... And no, you won't hear me say the A was the best thing for me..... But without it, I would never have really looked at myself. Somehow, my yelling was hidden by a fog so thick I never saw it. To this day it amazes me - yet its common with verbal abusers. I am not proud of my verbal abuse. Recognizing what I did eventually drove me to consideration of my own extinction in combination with my grief and pain over the A.
I received two plus months of counseling from Steve and continually heard cautions about patience. You can't force the process with my background of yelling to create control.
If I go Plan B it is simply best in my situation to wait for mid December. I will have done my support as a husband. I have to tell you, my wonderful gentle wife (at least she once was that and I like to remember that because it keeps me going sometimes) is at least not a practicing adulterer on the moment... I have to take solace in that.
20 years ago with my first wife I had to deal with an on-going A involving my best friend (he isn't now of course).
You are correct that I am being abused as we speak. Only I am growing stronger now than I was a year ago. Honestly, its easier for me to deal with when I realize how I ignored her protests of pain over my verbal abuse.
I am not afraid of Plan B. I do worry about my eleven year old. But I definitely see that if my FWW does not recognize herself in the mirror (and she doesn't) that this marriage will end in the next year no matter what I do.
I don't want to take Plan B as revenge. Rather, if I have to go there - its really a desperate last attempt to ask her to awaken.
So then I will have to choose... Plan D or live with it.
AND yes, I am in a great deal of pain. But a lot less than the past few months....
At least you can see the emotional abuse I am being subjected to and I appreciate your honesty in telling me that is what it is.
People rarely realize that unless it happens to them I guess.
Blessings
Hurtingturkey
ME: BS age 56 male
FWW: age 49
Ours: age 11
Hers: ages 22 & 17
Mine: ages 22, 27 & 30
Original DD: April 26, 2009
2nd DD: February 1, 2010
Exposed: 2/19/10

Stop calling her FWW.

It will help you to see her for what she is.

Good luck on your Plan A. Making you a better person is the BEST thing you can do for your marriage. Keep working at it and then invite your wife to join you. Either she does or she doesn't but either way YOU are better for going through this process.

Plan A is rough, but men can do it for months without too much damage being done. I think you can do it.

Have you figured out what your Plan B will look like?

Vibrissa, not sure I agree about the FWW label. I call myself a reforming verbal abuser, perhaps a reforming wayward wife is a better description of my wife right now than FWW. If I don't find some good in her, why bother attempting to create a good marriage. There is good in her - its not black and white in my opinion.
Yes. About the only question I have for myself now is do I begin Plan B immediately after her graduation in December or wait until after Christmas for the benefit of my eleven year old and maybe to further reinforce with happy memories what we could be....
It also bothers my conscience to plan behind her back. I have never been able to lie effectively except for the lies I told myself that I wasn't verbally abusive (and that is so hard to understand when I look at it now).
I don't feel quite so angry at her this morning. Just afraid of her. And I don't want to feel this way for the rest of my life.
I can go black and even arrange to see my son without any verbal contact - I will have a fund to pre-pay bills.
It will be a tough decision because it is clearly "High Risk - High Gain" to do that. At some point I will have to weigh the risk against the pain I feel and decide if it is necessary. I expect I will not be able to make that decision until December.
Meanwhile.... I am surviving. It doesn't feel like Plan A anymore by the way. Its just who I have always been without the temper tantrums.
Blessings
Hurtingturkey
ME: BS age 56 male
FWW: age 49
Ours: age 11
Hers: ages 22 & 17
Mine: ages 22, 27 & 30
Original DD: April 26, 2009
2nd DD: February 1, 2010
Exposed: 2/19/10

That's the thing though, she isn't reforming. She isn't trying. She's coasting along. She is coasting along.

Yes, there is good in her, but giving her a label she hasn't earned is a lie - it is something that clouds your thinking. Lies have no place in a relationship. She is a Potential FWW. PFWW, but she isn't right now. You calling her such doesn't make it so.

Thus, YOU shouldn't be lying either. Your wife needs to KNOW that you're not going to support the status quo indefinitely. You don't have to give her details, but inform her that you cannot live with an unrepentant WW and you will not live this way indefinitely. If she refuses to change you will have to make alternative plans for your future, plans that don't include her.

If you're going to stick around you MUST be Plan Aing. Your Plan B will be meaningless if you do a shabby job at Plan A.

If you're gonna do it, do it right. For you, for her, and for your family.

Just you without the anger isn't enough.

Work on meeting her needs, be pleasant and loving, strive for time with her. Be an outstanding husband for as long as possible, give her the hope and promise of a passionate marriage. THAT will coax her back to you and intimacy. But be honest, be honest that you will not be here forever.

You're coasting Turkey, it's time to start Marriage BUILDING.

HT, my fear for you is that she will do this again. Her adultery is about the cruelest behavior she could inflict upon you. No doubt it triggers your anger. It would make anyone very angry.

The solution to her adultery and your anger is to implement this program. That starts with radical honesty [something neither of you practice at all!] and steps to affair proof your marriage.

What about signing up for the MB online program, HT? Can you persuade her to do that? If oyu did this, your assigned coach and Dr Harley could work with her about getting honest about her affair. The online program is the same as the weekend forum except that you now watch the seminar online. online program

Vibrissa and ML,
I fear exactly what you said Melody Lane. Its probably why I don't feel "In Love" anymore. I have to consider that she fears my yelling will come back. Or that the truth will lead me to don myself in. I came close in mid February last year and she knows that as do I.
I am confident my Plan A is working as well as I can possibly make it without me lying about how I feel. Yes, she does know I am dying inside and constantly in pain. Or does she see the most recent conversation (three weeks ago) where I gently and humbly told her that as an attempt to control her? All of my training on verbal abuse aims a anger management and letting go of control. I think I have found a balance between bending over backwards and control / coersion. All sorts of emotional changes have taken place in me the past three or four weeks. I went from intense self hatred, to simple recognition of my own selfish faults, to really enormous anger at my whatever I should call her " Wife Who Was Wayward And Won't Admit #2"?WWWWAWA2? Its amazing that I can say that and smile for the moment (it will probably hurt again at another time). I really see the issues. There are lots of issues around deception. Even in nursing school she failed a class for not admitting a very minor charting error and was caught by her instructor.
I know that makes her weak. And potentially dangerous to me.
What a relief for me though in my journey with anger not to feel compelled to act on my anger. Even stranger and wonderful (if you have been a prisoner of your emotions) to be able to just tell this board or myself "I am angry" without it triggering an emotional outburst.
Have I married a very weak human being? Probably. BUT I have also been weak. I continue to wonder what would make her finally see herself like I did.
Where is the line between standing up for myself, supporting my wife as she chases her dream, and standing up for us and being controlling.
I think the online program is a possibility. I cannot get her back to Steve. And until December I read the online program as being something she cannot handle at the moment.
Does this mean I treat her as a child? No, and sometimes yes, but in many ways she is one. As was I with my child like tantrums and the use of my silver tongue and burning insight to win arguments at all cost.
It took realizing that I had lost her for me to wake up and start doing something. Vibrissa, ML, you should never respect me for what I did verbally (even if it was once every three months) with a wife who clearly has an anxiety disorder. Yet, I believe you would both be satisfied that my Plan A has been excellent with the exception of my reaction to the first revelation circa February of this year.
Deep down inside me, I know that I will never truly be happy without a marriage partner who loves me. Although I hear "I love you" a few times a week now, sadly I know I cannot really believe them. Yet I suspect many BS's on this board would be happy to have what I have. My therapist once described it as me living on table scraps. I know.
I guess with me, I have never had anything more than that excepting the first nine months of this marriage. I lived on far less in my first marriage. Sometimes I guess its what you get used to and everything is relative.
I will try the online program idea. If that doesn't fly I think I have run out of options except to live with it or select Plan B which I suspect has a 85% probability of becoming Plan D by default. I hate thinking of that.
Meanwhile... I am lots less angry at her today. And no matter how angry I was 24 - 48 hours ago... I have appropriately processed that level of anger and it has left me. Now just the fear and emptiness is there.
I will continue to make my home safe, secure, loving and happy for the sake of my wife and family even if I still am dying day by day inside a little bit. Until December, I have no choice in my sense of ethics.
Its a struggle but I am winning by taking care of and healing myself as much as I can.
BlHurtingturkey
ME: BS age 56 male
?WW: age 49
Ours: age 11
Hers: ages 22 & 17
Mine: ages 22, 27 & 30
Original DD: April 26, 2009
2nd DD: February 1, 2010
Exposed: 2/19/10
Deep in Plan A
Considering Plan B in December 2010
Fixing Me and Succeeding
Struggling to Fix Us mostly by myself
Slightly Desperate but Not in Despair

That line is determined by your desire. You cannot change her. Your actions become controlling when you are attempting to FORCE a change. When you use abusive tactics to abuse her into changing. Angry Outbursts, Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgement. All these, at their heart, are abusive.

It is not abusive to say "This is what I want, this is how I would like to be treated" and then inviting your wife to meet that need. She has the freedom to reject your invitation. Then, you have the freedom to accept her rejection or walk away.

You are under no obligation to stay and submit to abuse. Her decision to NOT recover and NOT help you through your pain is abuse.

You ask her to stop her abuse, realizing you cannot FORCE her to stop her abuse. If she persists in abusing you then you MUST remove yourself from her.

The line is defined by YOUR actions and motivations. If you are trying to force or coerce, if you make her choice for her, it is controlling. If you thoughtfully request something, she is free to say no. You have not attempted to control her, just inform her of what you need.

You sound like you have made SO much progress with your anger. I sincerely applaud you on that. It is liberating to be in control of yourself, as opposed to tossed about by the whims of your emotions.

Don't settle for scraps HT, that is no way to live. Regardless of who you were in the past, you are becoming a NEW man, one who doesn't deserve what his wife has and is putting him through.

Vibrissa:
I know that the emotional abuse is real. It was happening way before the A's started on the part of my wife. In fact, it happend far more frequently than my Verbal Abluse (as honestly as I can recall I would guess a ration of 10 to 15 instances of emotional abuse to every 1 angry outburst on my part). I know I have changed and am continuing to change for the better. I don't deserve applause for that change even though you gave it.
"just because I no longer rob banks I should not be congratulated" But thank you anyway. Its kind of funny. At work I receive lots of recognition, back slaps and approval. I could care less. At home the admiration I so badly need isn't there and has not been there for years. I so need to be recognized for the good I have done. But my ?WW seems to take all the good for granted. I am trying not to do that to her.
I don't want to go to Plan B as a punishment for my ?WW not owning up to it. Its really strange but now that I know who it was, my obsessive need to know is far less than I would have imagined. But I also know we will never have the intimacy I need if she doesn't and that scares me.
Almost two years ago (just when the second A started - course I did not know it), while skiing in Vermont with my then 16 year old step son on some very difficult trails I felt weak, sweaty and developed severe chest pains. Came in to the lodge where my wife was. I told her I felt very bad. We both stepped up to head for the bathrooms. I feared I was having a heart attack and as I stood up I looked at my wife and thought in a flash these might be my last words... "I love you." I said. I then passed out - and vomited and aspirated. My wife had walked away and not even seen me fall.... When I awakened I was treated for a severe viral infection and after 24 hours I was skiing again. The thing about that moment is that I truly though I was going to die. Absolutely. I wasn't afraid to die. I wanted more than anything else for my wife to know that I loved her. That was my wish.
I knew in that moment what was most important to me in the world. And it was my wife.
I think about that moment in time often. It defines who I was. Its terribly hurtful to realize she was cheating on me just before that day.
Then I think of all the times I used my tongue to"win" an argument or that I let myself feel superior....
Sometimes its all very confusing.
How could I love that much and yet be so hurtful with my tongue. (in reality I know the answer - my parents fought like cats and dogs yet they were very loving - always made up etc. My wife could not handle that kind of a relationship. But I didn't see it.)
Right now I suppose I have to wait until December. I also have to come to grips with the onld Ann Landers "Are you better off with them or without them?" test.
So is taking Plan B a way of me attempting to Control and force what I want?
I am not dealing with an active A anymore.
I know that I recently did in a gentle and humble way say that I needed to know - who etc. For the moment I have to accept her rejection. For whatever reason, its much easier today than it has been. But the fear is still there. If I were to get wind of any similar behavior with men again I would stop, drop whatever I was holding and run and never, ever look back. NEVER. I cannot do that again no matter what.
Anyway.. You have written a wonderful post. I have printed it and will keep a copy in my glove compartement. WIth 150 miles of commuting to work each day - your words and ML's will help me make my next decision. I just don't want to make an emotional decision or a controlling one.
Blessings and Thank you sincerely,
Hurtingturkey
ME: BS age 56 male
?WW: age 49
Ours: age 11
Hers: ages 22 & 17
Mine: ages 22, 27 & 30
Original DD: April 26, 2009
2nd DD: February 1, 2010
Exposed: 2/19/10
Deep in Plan A
Considering Plan B in December 2010
Fixing Me and Succeeding
Struggling to Fix Us mostly by myself
Slightly Desperate but Not in Despair
Lots to think about!

HurtinT

Something to consider about "recovering" waywards, vs "Former" wayward" vs "dormant" waywards.

Recovering and former waywards are actively involved in the healing process. Can you in any way shape or form describe your wife's behavior as ACTIVELY pursuing a path to heal the marriage? If not, no positively worded attribute can describe her.

I would consider her a dormant wayward because all she's waiting for is the right catalyst to get her off track again. She's not avoiding that track.

And you need to wake up and recognize that and protect your family or the hurt you feel right now? The anger you feel right now? Nothing compared to another Christmas with a ticking time bomb that may have already blown up in your face by then.

Stop being a conflict avoider. She can deal with her grades. But put her on notice she's running out of time to right the ship and she'll need to fix it while she studies.

PS

HT - I know you're working to overcome some verbally abusive characteristics.

But nothing in the anger management recovery handbook says you have to lay down your manhood while you're giving up profanity, raised voices and clenched muscles.

You can be a man and still have a quiet voice that clearly sends the message that you are no doormat!

KaylaAndy
You give me much to think about. And your wayward point is well taken. I truly believe your point but cannot bring myself to force the issue just now. I would rather that she leave me once she has her degree than live and be used. I have to balance my need to know and my need for honesty and intimacy with my need to know she is here because of me.
I don't now and won't believe she loves me until she opens up.
For the moment I have to hang on even though I don't want to and it is killing me some days.
But my home is pleasant, free of unhappiness on the moment (save mine), and its not so much avoidance as it is me trying to have patience on the timing of standing up for myself.
Interesting but I never used profanity. Just VOLUME and witty insights and hurtful comments - mostly aimed at her not showing love for me.
Thank you for the support and your comments.
BLessings
Hurtingturkey
ME: BS age 56 male
?WW: age 49
Ours: age 11
Hers: ages 22 & 17
Mine: ages 22, 27 & 30
Original DD: April 26, 2009
2nd DD: February 1, 2010
Exposed: 2/19/10
Deep in Plan A
Considering Plan B in December 2010
Fixing Me and Succeeding
Struggling to Fix Us mostly by myself
Slightly Desperate but Not in Despair
Lots to think about!

Okay, a first draft of my Plan B letter.
I am thinking I will execute this within 60 days. It could be as soon as this weekend or upon the completion of her schooling in December
Comments and critique would be welcome. Trust me I have no ego at all at this point yet I believe I am worth enough to stand up for myself here.

Dear (my ?WW:

I want to love you more than I do and I do not wish to hurt you. Caring for you was all I ever wanted to do even if I failed to do it properly.

I need to know the truth about the tape recording Deb. You can listen to part of it on the computer desk top. Please do not make me unravel anymore. C

I want to forgive you and I but I could not begin to forgive me until I saw the damage I created.

I want to feel you next to me more than I want to let you go yet I feel I have to today.

I want to love you freely, the way I used to
I want to be in love with you, to feel free to be in love with you as I did for 12 years even though I acted horribly with my uncontrolled temper.


For awhile now, I have taken what I can get from you. Many times it felt like nothing and sometimes like I was receiving table scraps. For now, my emotions are still alive. They are still within me.

But in my broken bleeding heart there lies hope, and deep within there lies love for you that you have never seen and I have never expressed.

And yes, there are shattered dreams, many of which I shattered on my own, but there are new dreams and I want those.

I need your help for this to happen Deb. That means you become as vulnerable as I was when I finally had to look hard in the mirror and see what I did to you.

I hope you will pick me up and hold me and tell me the entire truth about you until I don�t hurt anymore
I hop that you willlove this pain away, kiss my fears away
I want you to fall in love with me and
I want us more than I could ever express.

I want you to understand that I am not recovered yet every tiny piece of my very broken heart loves you still. Yet I have had to learn that I cannot love if I do not respect myself and I need truth from you that will allow me to forgive and begin to rebuild trust.

I need you to be open and intimate with me in a way that can only come from opening up who you are and who you have been for I cannot and should not find the courage to love a stranger.

Now, I wonder every day if we will ever have what for me was the only reason to ask you to marry me.

Yes, I will hurt but I am a man now and not a child. The child I was grew angry and had tantrums. Today, I can feel intense anger and not be out of control.

I leave in the intense hope that you will see that I can be independent even if my emotions don�t want to be.

I leave praying that you will open up the truth to me. All of it no matter what.

I leave hoping you will bring me back by telling me all of the truth no matter what it costs either one of us.

I leave hoping that you will find love for me that makes you willing to be vulnerable to truth.

We cannot live a lie that pretends.

I know that I cannot. I crave and I need honesty and if that love is not there within you, I sadly know that we do not belong together any longer.

I will be safe from myself and I will find ways to be a good father.

I simply cannot live a lie.

I need you to know that this man cannot love freely when he is not safe from the emotional pain that has visited with me.

I need you to know that I understand that you could not and cannot love freely with a man who attempts to control with yelling and anger.

I need you to know that I leave not to punish you but to try and make you understand that I must save myself from the emotional pain of living a lie with the one person I wish to trust more than anything.

I want to live with someone in love with me or I must live by myself. This is who I am.

Is this controlling behavior? No, after much research and discussion in therapy I am simply standing up for myself and saying I need these things to survive.

I watched and felt my "in love" with you disappear over the past year and that has been a tragedy that I cannot adequately express. I will not allow my remaining love to die the same death because of a lie.

I will leave you alone. When we came to be I always would have left you alone. You were far better than I and I always knew that. You seemed to choose me and I grew confident that I might be good enough for you.

I would die to protect you even today. Can you honestly say that you would choose to do that for me? I need and want someone who will and would prefer to live alone without that.

Knowing that I was not enough of a man and husband for you has aged me, and angered me at myself more than you will ever know.

I will do my best to keep up with the bills and will send you an accounting of this. I am not filing and if you choose to do so there is nothing I can do.

I have simply concluded that if you do not come for me with the truth (the whole truth and not a trickly of it) that I didn�t belong in marriage with you any longer and that this may be my fault and my hell to live in.

What I want you to know more than anything else is that I do love you. But I am so afraid of you and I cannot continue on as pleasant roommates or as a friend with benefits.

I can commit to you my whole heart, but I now need you to decide if I am worth it in your eyes after all the hurt.

I cannot live with you for economic benefit. I need love.

I have seen signs that you want a future with me. But I am massively afraid as I suppose you are of me.

Perhaps in my absence you will decide what is best for you. You are a beautiful person both inside and out in so many ways. I can understand your weaknesses and your strengths. You are a wonderful mother and friend to so many others.

I can accept that I may not be the choice for your future that you need.

So I promise you to give you whatever time you need to decide.

Silently, I have had to decide that simply giving all of me to you is not all that I need. Rightly or wrongly I need something very special back from you and that is what I long for every day.

I will hold hope that you will find me to be your future, but I will not force you to remain in a marriage with a man you are not in love with. I know that I love you and cannot lie to you yet I also realize that I lied to myself for so many years about my yelling. Its hard to understand and without my realizing that I lost you, I would not have awakened from the lies to myself. This life that we lead right now is not what God intended for you and if I must suffer hell on earth and thereafter for my sins with you I have to accept that outcome as it is entirely out of my control. I can only control my actions in the future.

Here is what comes next�.

I promise not to contact you. You may look for someone else whom you are free to love without the damage I created. I will not because I love you but that does not restrict you from finding out who you are and what you want.

Away from one another we both will have time to choose our paths but I must leave the clear message that without honesty from you�.

I cannot go on.

I want so much to need you and your love, respect, admiration and intimacy even if the truth crushes me. How else will I know if I can love that much and how else can you know that I love you that much. We all have a basic need to be truly loved for who we are and have been.

I have to assume that on Mazlow�s Hierarchy you can see that you have Food and Shelter now. I am seeing to that. The next step is that you need love of more than just family members. I may or may not be able to give you what you need.

I have made arrangements to live on my own far away from our home so that I am not tempted to check on you or bother you.

Our wonderful eleven year old son can simply be told that Dad has had to accept a job assignment away from home for a while. I will contact you through your mother and visit him from her home.

I will not, and I repeat not come to the town we live in.

Letting you go is all I can do. Letting you decide is all I want. That is not control. It�s the exact opposite.

I will not contact you at all.

I will focus on my work and on some forms of play or start school or something in my free time.

I will pray that some miracle will occur and that our marriage will turn into what we both once shared and wanted it to be. I need you to decide its worth the time, attention, vulnerability and work to learn what has been missing.

I do love you. I am not leaving to punish you. I am leaving now to allow you to decide. To stay when I feel this way would be to continue the controlling behavior (Please give us one more chance etc.) that I have done before.

I will respect your decision.


Okay - comments. I won't promise I will agree but I will listen and be a thoughtful as I can be.

BLessings
Hurtingturkey
ME: BS age 56 male
?WW: age 49
Ours: age 11
Hers: ages 22 & 17
Mine: ages 22, 27 & 30
Original DD: April 26, 2009
2nd DD: February 1, 2010
Exposed: 2/19/10
Deep in Plan A
Considering Plan B in December 2010
Fixing Me and Succeeding
Struggling to Fix Us mostly by myself
Slightly Desperate but Not in Despair
Lots to think about!

As a newbie who recently wrote a plan B letter I was told more then a few paragraphs is to long. This is WAY to long the experts will be round soon to help more.

HT, before you separate why not give the Harleys a chance to get through to her? You have coached before Steve Harley right? My suggestion would be to coach with Steve or Jennifer and see if one of them can persuade her to sign up with you for the Marriage Builders course that is led by Dr Harley.

I think that would be ideal in your situation because Dr Harley could help you navigate this in a sane way. Because of your background, I think you have gone to the opposite extreme of conflict avoiding and are very confused about how to solve problems directly. Dr Harley can help you with that.

But please don't even consider Plan B until you have tried other things.

p.s. I agree with Thiswillpass! That letter is way too long! About 3 to 5 short, succinct paragraphs will suffice. Too many words will blur your point.

I agree with Mel - one last attempt through the Harleys to get through to your wife.

If that fails - then Plan B.

The letter is too long, you don't want to obscure your point. You want to hit 3 things:

1. You love your wife and are working to be a good husband to her.
2. Remaining with her while she is not working towards recovery is too painful and destroying your love.
3. You are willing to consider reconciliation under x,y,z circumstances.

Ensure that you identify your intermediary as the ONLY means of communicating with you.

Call the Harleys with your wife, if that doesn't work THEN Plan B.

Twp, Vibrissa and Meloday Lane,
Thank you for the responses. Makes me wonder if I will ever get this right. Maybe I wrote the letter too long for you to read.
I will Try to Get agreement on an appointment with Steve. If that does not work I wll make one for myself. Then I will try the idea of the MB Course with Dr. H. IF that does not get agreed upon or not worked on when we try it... I just don't think I can live up in the air anymore.

Thank you for what you do here.

May God Bles you.

Hurtingturkey
ME: BS age 56 male
?WW: age 49
Ours: age 11
Hers: ages 22 & 17
Mine: ages 22, 27 & 30
Original DD: April 26, 2009
2nd DD: February 1, 2010
Exposed: 2/19/10
Deep in Plan A
Considering Plan B in December 2010
Fixing Me and Succeeding
Struggling to Fix Us mostly by myself
Slightly Desperate but Not in Despair
Lots to think about!

You're doing fine HT. It's hard to think clearly when it is your own marriage. I can give all the advice I want, but when it comes to DH and I, sometimes I have my blinders on and I mess up, it's human nature.

You want to say EVERYTHING in your letter, you want to get it all out. However, that will just undermine your purpose.

Do what you can about the coaching or online program. Her response will tell you what you need to know. You can make your plan from there. One way or another, something has to change. With or without your wife, things will get better for you if you use MB. I hope it is WITH your wife, but ultimately that decision is up to her.

I write this with enormous pain but not anger.
I believe for my own sanity that I must go to Plan B.
I don't believe its my ego driving me.
I do believe it is mental torment that I can no longer tolerate.
Please help me...
I cannot get my WW to put any time in.
She is lost in her schooling which feels like it will never end.
SO please try and answer my question...
Where do Plan B husbands find the strength?
I feel like my sanity and health are at risk continuing in PLan A.
Thoughts, Readings? Quotes? Books? Ideas? Stories?
Please help me.
BlessinHurtingturkey
ME: BS age 56 male
?WW: age 49
Ours: age 11
Hers: ages 22 & 17
Mine: ages 22, 27 & 30
Original DD: April 26, 2009
2nd DD: February 1, 2010
Exposed: 2/19/10
Deep in Plan A and losing my sanity
Looking for the Strength to initiate Plan B

If you feel that love from her slipping away I suggest you do go into plan B, write out your letter, give it to her, and have her move out. Simple as that

HT, I am going to say this again. You need to call up Steve Harley and have him persuade your wife to get on board here. You are too nervous about being honest with her, so you need him to guide you through this.

Will you please call him?

I don't believe you should go to Plan B until your wife has been offered a plan and been given every opportunity to decline it.

I have attempted with no success to get my WW to agree to marraige counseling. After more weeks of being ignored, I remain all torn up. I wanted to wait until my WW finished her current school semester but it all became too much yesterday. I gently and calmly told her I needed to leave.
Even when I played the tape recording of her speaking about the man she went to I received denial. She even suggested it was someone else imitating her voice. My heart sank.
I gently told her it was time for me to leave.
At this point I am so torn up by the lies that I have to save my sanity. Maybe I don't love enough to over look it or get past it. I have let her know that I do not wish to talk - that the bills will be paid etc. I have been ignored and turned into a piece of furniture. As much as I haven't wanted to believe it, I do receive zero respect, zero communication, dishonesty, zero affection, zero romance and table scraps of caring....
It hurts to admit it.
I will probably send one text saying that if she wants to speak with me - a conference call with Steve is the only way.
At this point I don't care about the house, money or anything else. I know all about the posts "Men don't leave your house" but my sanity was all but gone. I am a dope, I have allowed myself to be used and I have lost all but perhaps a tiny speck of hope. I hope I am doing the right thing by trying to maintain my sanity. It was hard to refuse to answer phone calls this morning. Again, did I do the right thing. I just sensed I was going to be beaten up or manipulated with the L word. I want to cry but cannot cry.
I can only believe that if she loved me she would find the courage to tell me the truth and work with me. How do you forgive when someone won't tell the truth?
So I have just kept beating on myself for my past of angry outbursts.
This is so sad. Its more sad than hard. I am sorry I ever loved.
Blessings All
BlessinHurtingturkey
ME: BS age 56 male
?WW: age 49
Ours: age 11
Hers: ages 22 & 17
Mine: ages 22, 27 & 30
Original DD: April 26, 2009
2nd DD: February 1, 2010
Exposed: 2/19/10
Deep in Plan A and losing my sanity
Looking for the Strength to initiate Plan B

I'm so sorry to hear that it came to this, ht. However, Plan B is the right and only sensible step to take when an affair is ongoing.

Where did you move to? Have you set up the arrangements so that you will not have to break your Plan B?

HT, I agree that Plan B is in order. However, I would also contact an attorney and file for separation or divorce so you are not legally harmed for leaving your home. Will you please do that?

I am sorry you are in such pain and wish you would get some professional help.

I have heard too many stories where the spouse that moves out gets hosed in court on every level.

You want to D then D.

You want to plan B then B.

You want to do both then both.

But do not proceed to move out of the house until you have spoken with a lawyer.

He has already moved out and I agree it was the right thing under the circumstances. He now needs to see an attorney and get some legal protection.

I think it's different when the kids are grown. By all means, move out. Don't take the abuse.

HTLDs they have an 11 year old together. The rest are older. At least that's how I read the siggy.

Get legal advice.

Thank you for the responses.
Yes we have an eleven year old. Currently I am in an extended stay hotel. I have pre-paid all bills and made certain that this is documented and that my WW has that information. I met my eleven year old after school yesterday and worked on homework with him at school. He for the moment has been told I have an out of area work assignment. Legally I have already made the decision to hand over my 401K to my WW - there is just enough to pay the taxes on early distribution and the withdrawl and pay off the house mortgage. I have already prepared myself to hand over the house (its for my son after all anyway). I only want my clothes and some personal photos. If I have to stay in Plan B then within a few weeks I will find a studio apartment for myself. It is hard to stay away and I already have a dozen nasty messages on text but I made it clear that I will not talk and I sent one text back making that clear. Its talk through Steve H or nothing. Its hard, WW is having school troubles (what else is knew? and I have great compassion for that). Illinois is pretty straight forward. 20% of my net for child support, automatic visitation every other week and alternating holidays swapped every year and 30% of my net as alimony till she remarries or cohabitates. With me giving her all the property its pretty simple - I know what forms to file if it comes to that. I can't get screwed in court any more than that as long as I pay the bills now and I am two months ahead on that and she has the proof of that. I have to keep the backbone to do this now. I am getting all sorts of texts about how this is controlling behavior and threatening. Yes I have a history of being controlling and yelling. I have not been that way for 8 months now and yet the lies about the A have continued. It was sort of the last straw to play her the tape recording where she talks about going to the other man and to have her tell me that it is someone else's voice....
Its just a waiting game now. My therapist kept asking me "Is this how you want to live?" The reference to the lies etc. I have made it clear in a gentle manner that I cannot feel safe and forgive and rebuild when she will not own up to her part of this equation. I am worried about her. She does not appear very stable right now and I have tried to make it clear to her that I am not punishing her. I am just trying to keep myself sane. I pray each day that this will work out but I feel the hope dying along with my love and that second item is the greatest tragedy I have ever known.
Blessings
BlessinHurtingturkey
ME: BS age 56 male
?WW: age 49
Ours: age 11
Hers: ages 22 & 17
Mine: ages 22, 27 & 30
Original DD: April 26, 2009
2nd DD: February 1, 2010
Exposed: 2/19/10
Nearly lost sanity after nearly a year in Plan A
Looking for the Strength to continue Plan B

HT,

You�re making a classic mistake and are assuming a lot about the legal system. Guess what? Fathers can get custody as well.

Your son�s age puts him in a position where he can decide about custody.

So what you�re doing right now is giving in. You�re funding her adultery by living out of your house, giving her the funds to pay the bills, and being apart from your son.

What you should be doing is living in your own home and building the case about why SHE needs to get her cheating a$$ out of the house. You�re doing EXACTLY what I did.

I gave everything to my ex with the mistaken assumption that I would get it all back once she came to her senses.

Your son could care less about the house. What he wants is an intact family and the last thing he wants is to deal with an OM. By doing what you�re doing, you�re leaving the door open for OM to move in to your home and replace you.

Wake the F up! This isn�t Plan B. It�s Plan Doormat.

You�re screwing yourself legally. You can win custody and can force HER to pay you alimony.

That requires that you fight legally and not roll over, which is exactly what you�re doing.

Time to hit her with the legal 2x4�s and force her to defend her adultery in court. Get a lawyer, get a child advocate who will represent your son, and force HER to move out.

You�re making this way too easy for her.

Wait??

You are paying for everything?

She keeps the house?

And her son??

And you honestly think she will want you back?

I am sorry to burst your bubble but she has everything so why take you back? She has the house, the $$, her son, her boyfriend??

You are doing plan B WAY WRONG, plan B is for her to realize how hard it will be if you divorce, if you give her EVERYTHING she will sign those D papers so fast you wouldn't even catch it.

Good luck man your just digging your hole.

Sorry to be harsh but it is very hard to read your post knowing you are making a huge mistake.

Your not in plan B or Plan doormat you are in plan "I don't care anymore take everything you have from me my manly hood, my money, and my kid."

I followed your plan. I never recovered my marriage. In hindsight I'm glad I didn't.

What I wish I had done was fight harder legally. I wish I had fought for a minimum 50/50 custody and minimal financial help for her.

Instead I did as you are doing and was broke for years. Still am.

I understand the heartfelt concern over finances but I don't care. One size fits all doesn't work for me. Sure I could keep her in a sham of marrmarrige by finances. What if that is the worst thing I can imagine? It is to me. I don't see marriage as an economic union.
Hurting Turkey

No one is saying you're supposed to look at marriage as an economic union. What we're saying is that you need to protect yourself. You are not doing that. You have left yourself financially exposed to your WW's whims. That could financially ruin you.

Regardless of how you feel right now you need to financially protect yourself. If you don't do it for yourself, do it for your son. If this continues, you could find yourself with no money, living in some flea-bag apartment barely making ends meet, because your WW got everything you had. Do you really want your son to see you like that?

I guess I have been trying to by-pass talking about this because it sounds "haughty."
I can afford to live a moderate middle class life style even on 50% of my income.
In my case I feel that my WW could feel imprisoned in our marriage because I have economic earning power that she doesn't. To try and leverage her to rebuild the marriage on a foundation of honesty and trust won't work if she feels leveraged due to economics would simply breed more of what I have today. I don't want her to feel she is a prisoner and I don't want to feel like a slave owner. Essentially, I as a person, separate and apart from my earning power am either worth it or I am not. I know my earning power makes me a fractional percentage of the people who need exactly the advice that has been given to me. I also do not respect, admire or need "nice things." I drive a six year old economy car with a clutch, no CD player etc. and if I wash it more than five times a year that would be a lot. I grew up with Country Club, Sailboat, etc. Those things are not important to me. For me, being loved is my need.
That is where I am. I have more courtroom experience than many attorneys do by nature of what I do for an occupation. I have been through a previous divorce and learned all the ropes. So my reason for posting where I am is that I went to Plan B. WW either recognizes herself in the mirror or not. I could not stand living in a shell of a marriage where all I did was bring home a paycheck.
I posted because Plan B is difficult and there are dozens of reasons to abandon it. I am hurting only since I left I am hurting slightly less and for different reasons now.
Blessings
BlessinHurtingturkey
ME: BS age 56 male
?WW: age 49
Ours: age 11
Hers: ages 22 & 17
Mine: ages 22, 27 & 30
Original DD: April 26, 2009
2nd DD: February 1, 2010
Exposed: 2/19/10
Nearly lost sanity after nearly a year in Plan A
Looking for the Strength to continue Plan B

HT,

We�re all one economic disaster away from being broke.

You�re right as far as doing Plan B so she can figure out on her own if you�re worth it or not. The only thing I offer for you to chew on is that I had a six figure salary and was barely scraping by because my child support was so high.

So don�t assume you�ll be paying out 50% of your income. It may very well be more.

Having that economic security gives you more reason to be stingy with it in dealing with her. My WXW felt no consequence on a financial level because I set it up so that she wound up with about 60% of my pay each month. She continued to live her entitled lifestyle.

Why fund the entitlement? I understand where you�re coming from as a big picture, but you should, out of pride alone, be willing to cut off all financial support that you don�t have to provide by law. Let her feel the consequence of her actions at all levels.

Funding her only makes the infidelity easier.

I'm glad you posted this. It's important that HT hear this from someone who has been there. I can only offer anecdotal evidence to support keeping everything he can.

HT, you can always give it up (money, house, support, etc.) if the court says you have to. It's hard to get it back if the court doesn't say you have to give it up.

helpthelostdads:
I hear you and can only applaud why you try and keep Dad's in my situation from going overboard. I have also (in 1990) unfortunately been through this before. We all have our own brand of standards. WW # 1 (i.e. 1990 divorce) was a millionairess and did not need it. I shouldn't have given it to her. Where were you then? (just kidding)
WW # 2 grew up in abject poverty and has worked like a dog to become a Registered Nurse even though we do not need her income. The situations are not comparable. WW #1 was a terrible mother and WW# 2 would be a world class mother if she had not crossed the line into Wayward World. Bottom line...
WW# 2 deserves a clean start. So do I. If I screw her to the walls on property, etc. it just means that the next man in her life will arrive sooner - and she will have lots less options in terms of whom she chooses and that impacts my eleven year old one heck of a lot more than if I can afford a five bedroom colonial or a two bedroom condo. But the real reason I choose to take this approach is that it is not vindictive. In my current marriage I have a history of verbal abuse and control and because of that (and nearly a full year of committed heartfelt change in my behavior), I cannot act controlling and threatening if I wanted to. I see both sides of what happened. In my case if you were to read backward in my infrequent posts you would see that I have basically lost my sanity attempting to repair marriage and WW will not accept responsibility or acknowledge an A that I have proof of - and its probably over.
Please, understand I appreciate your strong heartfelt advice. But - the only consequence I wish there to be is the absence of me from her life.... I am betting my marriage (and maybe my happiness) that she just might figure out that I am worth it now that angry outbursts are a thing of the past.

So I will try an finish one more time... I really don't want to talk finances. I am struggling with staying at Plan B since I have just started. Any reading, support, ideas etc. would be appreciated.
Thank you sincerely,
Hurting Turkey
ME: BS age 56 male
?WW: age 49
Ours: age 11
Hers: ages 22 & 17
Mine: ages 22, 27 & 30
Original DD: April 26, 2009
2nd DD: February 1, 2010
Exposed: 2/19/10
Nearly lost sanity after nearly a year in Plan A
Looking for the Strength to continue Plan B

Well, good luck then. I see it as rewarding bad behavior.

You see it differently, but as the betrayed, you are the one that makes the call.

I honestly don't know what I'd do if I was cheated on again. I very much doubt I would be very forgiving and would fight tooth and nail to get full custody of any future kids.

I hate to sound cliche, but time, as you already know from the first go around, is the best healer.

I also recommend going to a group called Divorce Care. They are a great source of support.

All I see you teaching your children is

"It's ok if your wife have another boyfriend and it's ok to support her financially and take 60% of what you make so she can live a life with her new b/f"

Is that what you want to teach your children?

Wow that some great teaching!

HTLD and SR. No where is it written in MB@,s that I should be vindictive. I net after taxes 15 every two weeks. No matter what I do my state law wilforce or require 50 percent of my net. I can rebuild. I want my son to have his home and his friends. He should NEVER know financial details. IMHO there is no room for anger now. That is what I will teach him and I pitypity any child who is dragged into that.
I am in plan B to save my marriage. That is what my son will be taught. I I am in Plan B to try and do that.
Now Stop hijacking my request for plan B support as finances are not an issue. I think I can live on 200 K a year after tax income.... I am asking for Plan B support not budget advice. I cannot have custody when I work 90 hours a week.
Plan B support anyone?
Hurting Turkey

HT, I don't think anyone is asking you to be vindictive. These posts to you are made out of concern for your future well-being, some by people who have been where you are and are sadder and wiser.

I don't think anyone is giving you budget advice. We're just asking you to be financially aware. It sounds like you've made your decision calmly and rationally after looking at all sides. That's fine.

On with Plan B.

HT,

I have never given you advice, but I've been reading your thread. In my opinion as a FWW, the purpose of Plan B is to make the WS feel how is going to be like when his/her other half is not in the picture. Most of them (WS) go ahead and live with their affair partners, and sooner than later realize that it was just a fantasy. In your case you make a lot of money, and she will miss that. You need to understand that any reason to try to come back and work for an M is good. A WS is not in love with you at the moment, that's why if you make it too easy for her, she'll keep being a WS. On the other hand, if you break her fantasy world, she'll be able to get out of it, and Might want ti work on the M!!!!

Trust me, if my BS ask me for D now(which is still a very strong possibility), even if I'm left with all of it, I'll fight for him. But before, on Wayward mindset, I would have happily taken the money and said goodbye forever. That's a cruel reality, but the truth.

That's why, Plan B doesn't work the way that YOU want to do it! On the other hand, if you are done with your M, by all means, give her whatever you have too, and move on. It's your decision.

Just don't make it easy, remember she is still a WS, not your sweet W! Please, help her come to her senses...

Great post, Rizos!

HT, no one wants you to screw your wife over, but by the same token, we don't want to see YOU screwed over legally! Folks are worried about you. This is why I suggested contacting a lawyer to get a financial agreement in place. A good Plan B should show the WS what her life will be like without you in the picture. She needs to get that wake up call.

She wants all the benefits of marriage but wants to contribute nothing. She needs a wake up call!! That is in her best interest and your sons. Her destructive behavior is not good for your son, HT, so anything you can do to wake her up will benefit you all. But continuing to support her in her destructive marriage wrecking behavior is not helpful to her, your son or you!

Did you send her a Plan B letter and designate an intermediary?

How are you doing??

Good luck in plan B I have nothing else to say

There is a big difference between taking caring of one's kids after a D and not finacing an affair and making the WW face the consequences of being a WW.

Your method teaches a child that outside of dumping a spouse that is no longer wanted a divorce will never impact the WS financially.

So go and teach the lesson that divirces are win win situation. Dump the spouse that became a third wheel and the cash still comes in.

changed my mind.

I need to ask you something...

You said you have divorced before right?

Did you also give everything you had to that wife?

That is probably why your wife now knows that you will give up everything if she divorces you.

Is that what your going to do with every divorce?

Because in that case you might as well not remarry because EVERY wife you marry will do EXACTLY the same thing.

Again good luck on plan B

HT,

It has nothing to do with being vindictive. It has everything to do with consequences. Being vindictive would mean going after her and her funds and doing things to throw her on her butt.

Consequences involves removing your contribution to her upkeep. You are, for all intents and purposes, funding her lifestyle and affair. Therefore, Plan B is more likely to fail. There is no financial strain on OM since you�re funding her. They can carry on their affair on your money while new guy tries to take your place as father of your kid.

I know enough that an 11 year old isn�t going to replace you in his heart. But that doesn�t mean the wayward isn�t going to try to ram OM down DS�s throat.

You want Plan B to work? Quit funding her.

Okay, its getting frustrating here for me and I am about to just give up looking for support here. THE support I have asked for is not to tell me how to handle a divorce settlement. I am willing to take on the added risk of Plan B failing because I haven't cut off the money. I need my WW to decide that I am worth it or that I am not.

I understand your point SR. What I want you to understand is that I will do ANYTHING to avoid controlling my WW. If you haven't experienced a controlling personality you would not know why. I sign paychecks for just under 3,800 people in my professional life. Unfortunately the same skills that let me run an organization were used by me to control my WW long before she was WW. At this point, my plan B is simply to allow her to make a choice. I will not and do not want that choice made because of economic consequences. How controlling to use my earning power to control my WW who has none. I can't do that because I have utilized control at home as a crutch for stress at work etc. for years. I can accept her going to divorce. I could be at home like nothing was happening and living like roomates. I don't want that. Doing that was killing me. The decision I want is either I am worth it (without money in the equation).Yes I did give WW#1 everything and more. Yes WW#2 knows that. Yes WW#1 is loaded and could buy and sell me and that was dumb. The only thing WW#1 was good for was teaching me how to be controlling and unfortunate thing I didn't realize I had learned.
Unless you earn and income like I do you don't know how it feels to wonder if people are your friends or if your family loves you or if they just fake it for the money? You would be surprised how awful that feels. Believe me, I envy the housekeepers I see from my office window who often have a waiting spouse in an old junky car standing to hug them and give them a kiss and a ride home.... Anyone who thinks money is a blessing has never lived with it. Two decades ago I could take the time to coach my kids in little league - then success struck and the demands etc...
So yes in my case I must have money out of the equation. I would rather be dead than have her stay because of that. For me, its either I am worth it or I am not.
I fully understand that not leveraging financially weakens my chances.
Now ideas for making Plan B easier beside "debating you 2(LOL)? Can we agree I heard you both on finances?
That horse is dead.

HurtingTurkey

What exactly are you looking for, then?

If you wish to make Plan B easier, then get support. Join a group like Divorce Care. Start living again. The only real option is to write her off as a loss and make the conscious choice to move on with your life. Get a good IC, that helped me tremendously.

Don�t date.

Make some guy friends. Remodel your house. Start working out like crazy and get into great shape.

Don�t know what else to tell you.

Going from one extreme to the other is not going to help here. Maybe you need to find a healthy place in between.

Let me give you some female perspective here: You are entirely missing the fact that when you passively go on allowing your WW to date and sleep with another man, and *keep providing the money so she can do that*, you are sending her the very very very clear message that:

You Do Not Care If She Dates And Sleeps With Another Man.

Yeah, yeah, you can SAY that yes you DO care. But to your *WW*, that is NOT what your actions say.

You say you want her to choose you over OM of her own free will. But you are failing to realize that no woman on this planet, wayward or not, will EVER choose any man who simply sits passively and says, "Do whatever you want" when another man is putting the moves on her.

Fight for her, man! If you want her, you will have to fight for her. That isn't "controlling". That is showing her that you DO give a damn about the fact that she's with another man.

Words mean nothing in this case. Actions are everything. Try some.

HT,


That's the problem! What YOU NEED is your FWW to decide if You are worth it or NOT!!!!!! GOT IT?

You have to treat your WW like a mental case right now. You need to make decisions for her. She is not on her right mind.

I remember getting very upset when my husband cut my FB access! He did ask nicely in advance, but of course as a WW I could care less. Now, I'm happy he did. I'm happy he made the right and painful decisions to get me out of the fog. I'm a better person now, thanks to those hard decisions that he made for me.

You can not trust her feelings. She could say she loves you, but obviously that's not true either. She fall out of love, you need to win her back, if you want too.

But it will only work when she gets out of the FOG. That's why I said, that right now, making her feel less comfortable, will help her start to get out of the Fog.

Plan B won't work the way you want to do it. I can tell you now, you don't even have to wait for her answer: For her, right now, YOU are not worth it. Keep in mind, that's WW mindset. Please, do not use excuses, if you want to help your WW get out of the Fog, follow Plan B the right way.

If after she gets out of the fog, and you both have tried MB, if it still doesn't work for you, then go ahead and give her whatever you want. But right now, you are just setting yourself up for failure. Don't expect to get her back the way you are trying to do it. It just won't work.

And, please keep in mind, the fact that you were controlling is not what made her become a WW. That was her choice! You do need to learn to avoid love busters, and need to learn to meet her needs in order to have a great marriage in a future, but she is the one who decided to have an affair (her fault).

I hope you understand what we are trying to say here.

I believe the same thing. But HT has signed on to another philosophy that he has made clear is the one he's going to sink or swim with. It is telling that he's been down a road once before, did the same thing, lost the spouse, and is planning to go down the same road once again. You can lead a horse to water...

In any event, HT, you've heard from the best. You've heard from FWWs who have told you that you are making a mistake if you're trying to save your M. You've heard from men and/or BS's saying the same thing. I wish you luck, because I think this is faulty logic on your part. But again - you don't want to talk finances. Just Plan B support.

These words are right on the MONEY

Time to speak my mind.
One: There are a lot of very good people here.
Two: There are a lot of passionate people here.
Three: There are a a few suggestions I can take: Started back with a nice 3 mile light run last night. A decade ago I did marathons. Maybe aim to train for a < 4 hour finish time by September of Next Year and a serious time by Spring 2012.
I will find a home that needs lots of work and put my spare time into making it a nice place. Then I can work on it with my 11 year old who is just the right age to learn carpentry - etc.
Four: I will water test the financial advice I have been given here with Steve H. If he says I am wrong I will admit it here. If he says I am right I will report it here.
Five: Given the number of MB'rs that have to choose Plan B its surprising that they don't have their own board? I am not comfortable going to a divorce re: site as I have too often seen the billiard ball effect of one person getting a D only to have their friend gettting a D etc... Its really easy to see that in a hospital were 85% of the work force is female and close friendships at work are the rule and not the exception. So, if there are male Plan B'rs who read this - (that is you are in Plan B - talk to me here - ).
Understand HTLD's and SR that you have not posted to me in vein, I don't think you are harrassing me and I have read every word you have written more than twice. Ask MelodyLane who took 3 months or more of periodic posts to convince me to Nuke. And it was the right thing to do, I am glad I did it, I just screwed up how I did it. Lesson Learned.
Final Thought: A guy by the name of Herzberg (sp) many years ago put together what he called a human beings "Hierarchy of Needs" First, came food, Second came Shelter and Third on the list came Love. If I take away Needs One and Two from my WW in theory she will drop needing Love in facor of her need for Food and Shelter. I can see how that might turn her head. But what is it worth to have a prisioner as a wife?
Please think about that. I feel like that is what I have now and that is literally what drove me out of the house. I can always have food and shelter - its love I need.
Guess maybe I came here at the start of Plan B to know that I deserve to be loved just like everyone else. Right now that is a very hard thing to believe.
I know better than to date.
I am too old and too darn competitive to have male friends. Since my job doesn't allow friends (I have to be lonely at the top if you will). Since WW#1 took up with my "best friend" its really unlikely I will change my ways at 56 years old.
Fixing up a house and going back to running are great suggestions.
Thanks for the argument. Maybe I needed that just to know there are people out there that care.
Blessings
HurtingTurkey

Thats all I needed to hear. {{{{{{{{{{{[hurtingturkey}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I don't agree with your theory that your wife will drop "needing" love from her heirarchy if you stop enabling her because she already HAS stopped loving you. And you are supporting her NOW. So you can see that supporting her does not cause her to love you. It creates in her a sense of entitlement to the benefits of marriage with absolutely nothing in return. She is being enabled and conditioned to expect all the benefits of marriage without giving anything in return.

I will be glad to hear what Steve has to say about all this.

HT,

Taking her back is ultimately your decision. I don't really advocate the financial consequences as a method to get her back. In reality, it is a form of rejection by you to her. It's saying, "Fine. You wish to be single. Then by all means. Take care of yourself. I'm under no obligation to do it since I'm no longer your H, according to you."

You no more have an obligation to support her financially than you have an obligation to support a girlfriend who has broken up with you. You wouldn't support a girlfriend. So why support her?

And this is what she needs, HT. You are doing her no favors by protecting her from the consequences of her actions. The natural consequences of contributing NOTHING to your marriage is that you lose your husband and all the benefits he brings. Protecting her from the consequences of her behavior harms you ALL. You are essentially enabling her marriage wrecking behavior.

Did you read Dr Harley's article about the dangers of "unconditional love" [newsletter forum] and how it invites ABUSE? That has proven true in your case. I say this as your FRIEND, HT. I am your friend and staunch supporter.

HT, you are analytical to a fault. HT, sometimes you need to trust someone else who has been there to direct you, as opposed to blundering forward on your own and hoping for the best.

Listen to people who have been where you've been. Listen to Steve H. Decide what you're going to do from that point. I do know that a lot of WW's have been delighted to get that 'blank check', and they're delighted because it feeds their affair. It makes them feel even more entitled, after all, BS GAVE IT TO THEM. Therefore they DESERVE IT.

Get your info and decide, HT.

I guess we can see what SH thinks. He may have a different take on things, but in my experience there was no incentive by my WXW to return to the marriage since leaving was really pretty easy. She got to keep a lot of money, a new car, our former nanny.

All the while I was on the sideling hoping.

Part of her coming to her senses is her hitting rock bottom.

No, no one wants her to return with the motivation that she has to because she's financially destitute.

But she'll have a choice when she's broke. Return to you or get a job.

My guess is that she'll seek a job to support herself first.

The Plan B letter lays out the condition for her return, which doesn't mean she'll come back because she needs money. She has to meet very specific conditions, such as NC for life and a committment to the marriage.

By no means does anyone want her to return motivated by money.

Hitting rock bottom will be what brings her to her senses.

I understand your thought process. It makes sense even from a romantic and idealistic standpoint. You don't want her to return because she sees you as her only option.

That's not it at all.

I guess what I'm advocating is more along the lines of "If she wants to be single, then by all means. I no longer have any obligation to support her in any way. If she wishes to come back and act like my wife, then I will treat her like my wife. Otherwise, take care of yourself, get a job to support yourself, and I'll see you in court."

Melody Lane: Why did I just know that someone would tell me to read the article on unconditional love. It figures it would be you. I re-read it last night and had trouble sleeping. I first read that article in the winter of this year.... I knew it applied to me but I am not above denial you know (sigh...). And I know I have done it for a long, long time (unconditional love that is). I guess I just had a long talk with myself. If I knew someone loved me as much as I have loved my WW I would probably think I walked on water.
I guess the combination of therapy, anger management and commitment to end my angry outbursts is coming to gether after a year.... Time for me to "speak it."
At first I thought I was trying to escape responsibility for my Yelling, Schreaming etc. at home. I am starting to realise that I have been emotionally abused for a long time. Every time my WW has wanted something in our marriage she has utilized emotional abuse (distancing, criticizing) and a variety of other manipulative strategies to hurt me. Then she would talk about something she wanted, car, house, etc. I would then provide and then the emotional distancing would happen again and again.
I can see it. I can't deny it. Maybe my wonderful, gentle, WW is not as perfect as I would like to make her out to be. And I don't write that out of anger. In fact, it hurts like he_ _ to write that. It hurts and it hurts.
I know she has seen me work like a dog to stop my incredibly cowardly use of yelling to try and get what I want behaviors. She has seen me cry over what I do know about the A's and she has not cried with me. OMG - 8 years ago both of my parents died 20 days apart and she chose to stay home with the kids instead of going with me to the second funeral (my mother's). Anyone know of another wife in America who did not attend their husband's mother's funeral? Yes I agreed she should stay and take care of the kids rather than fly 1,200 miles. What state of mind was I in when both my parents died withing 20 days of each other (BTW I just figure Dad stood at the Pearly Gates and demanded that he wouldn't go in without his wife!). I know sometimes in the past year or so its been like I am the parent of a rebellious 17 year old.
Okay, its clicking. I don't take the financial trimmings away out of anger. I am scared that it might be controlling but I do want to have a real marriage.
What you are telling me is that I have loved too much. What my therapist is telling me is that I may be the victim who acted out Yelling and Screaming (neither acceptable behaviors) because the pain of emotional abuse was so intense.
This is very hard to write. Very.
Maybe its too personal to write on a public board. But I so badly want to feel loved. Its been a very long time since I felt that way.
I keep thinking back to a ski vacation in 2009 when I had food poisoning (I thought I was having a heart attack after a particularly challenging series of runs with my then 16 year old step son)... As the room started to spin and I could feel myself growing hotter and hotter, as I started to pass out my last thought was verbalized to my wife "I love you."
How much I would like to be loved like that.
And now I know the A that I am trying to get her to put out in the open was underway in the weeks before that incident.
Its like it was a turning point in my life. I have wanted to be loved like that ever since.
MaritalBliss I hear you about entitlement.
It makes sense.
HTLD - Thank you for writing "By no means does anyone want her to return motivated by money.
I guess you are all saying if I pull the plug financially it is a form of love and caring for our marriage - different than giving everything but rather a form of committment to a hard step designed to bring the marriage to the clensing I already know it needs.
But let me be honest. At the end, if it goes through to a D, in the last hour I will probably give her everything anyway for the benefit of my son.
You know, I often won't read or even come to this forum because it can be so painful.
Perhaps I will post again later today.
Thanksgiving alone is not a happy thought for me. Maybe I can show up and volunteer in a soup kitchen or something to make the day meaningful for myself instead of "sorry for myself."
Thank you for caring enough to stick with me.
Blessings
Have a wonderful Thanksgiving
Sincerely (and the undersigned has no pun intended)
HurtingTurkey

It is past time to "man up", HT.
Sometimes, as guys, we need to be reminded, or told, to stand up and be a man, and to stop wallowing in thinly-veiled self-pity. I struggle with that myself, and perhaps someday I'll never have to be reminded again to "be the man" I need to be.

But today I'm telling that to YOU. Be the man you NEED to be.

You're going to just give all your money to your WW "for your son"?

Guess what? That's not noble or praiseworthy in the least.

It's just plain taking the easy way out. You'd be capitulating out of fear - at the VERY least, so you could pat yourself on the back later on in your self-pity sessions, telling yourself what a good person you are.

Meanwhile, your son would be being raised by a Wayzilla, whose primary concern is herself, and all the money "for your son" would be spent on frivolous things. Your son wouldn't thank you for it later on, he'd probably do the opposite.

So, HT, MAN UP. No more self-pity right now. The time for crying and pity is over. You spent some time crying and feeling sorry for yourself - which is fine. But that time is LONG over. It is time, my friend, for action.

Not endless rehashes of "new revelations" about yourself, or your WW, or anything else. Not more self-pitying opining about what you gave or what you deserve. Instead, TAKE ACTION. Take bold action.

Besides, I'll tell you a secret. (Psst) Women are ATTRACTED to a man of decisive action, one who can have emotions but is not governed by them.

Wayward wives have ways of wasting that money away on anything other than your kid. Seriously. You're better off trying to get primary of him.

If you're really as well off as you are, then live off of what you have and raise your son for a few years. Enjoy the years he has left before he goes away.

He isn't going to one day look back and say, "Dad, thanks for working so much and making so much money."

He will be grateful for the time spent with you.

Think about it.

If I had a ton of money, I'd stop working, get primary custody of my kids, and be a fulltime dad. That would be a great thing and I'm sure you wouldn't regret a minute of it when you looked back.

HTLD: There is a difference between being tough and being fair. Even if I received full custody I would still pay 50% of my net. That is simply the precedent in my state. I rate my WW's child skills exceptional - her marriage skills about a 2 out of 10. My child skills are perhaps 50% of hers. So no thankyou. MB and Dr. H do not demand that I select full custody. I could have stopped working at age 50. Sorry, not going to do that. I do get to choose what I do in life. I will not teach my son the life of idle luxury. He will have to learn to make his own way in life. He will never see a cent of my earnings. I see too many kids of priviledge destroy themselves and their lives. I expect to work full time into my late 70's. That is my choice and not yours.
I may choose to display my emotions on this board. That is my choice and frankly, you have sufficiently rankled me for me to guess why you were divorced. I could invite you over to Men Ending Verbal Abuse and Control but since you can't see it in your response to me I won't bother.
As for self pity... frankly, I reject your comment and find it offensive.
You need not challenge me to man up. As for attracting females, you would be surprised what a powerful executive position does - actually far more than you might realize. Trust me on that one. I learned early on that "attracting females" is not my wish or mission in life and certainly not a reason to make the wrong decision. AND - finding another female is the farthest thing from my mind right now.
I AM FIGHTING FOR A GOOD MARRIAGE AND NOT A GOOD DIVORCE.
If pulling up the financial reigns is a good response similar to nuking then I have considered the recommendation. As for how I eventually financially settle if it comes to divorce - that is my business - I can poker bluff being tough on finances and I can pull the reigns in now. I got your point there (eventually). Peddle your anger tactics for my final Plan D off this thread. It has never been a marriage builders value to "screw the WW" which is pretty much where you seem to come from. Just Because I went Plan B does not mean I need your opinion of how I eventually settle if Plan D comes along.
One more thought comes to mind. My wife may be wayward but she walked away and refused to take anything in her first divorce. No house, no settlement Her ex paid $200.00 a month in support for 2 kids that I have brought up (he owns a thriving car dealership). In my case my WW has her issues - I have had mine. I actually can fully expect her to try and do the same thing (that is take nothing) with me.
As for manhood HTLD - We all grieve differently. Sometimes it takes compassion to be a man. My definition may be different than yours. Have you ever had your hand inside the open brain of a wounded 19 year old Marine while under fire trying to stop the bleeding in the faint hope that his brain is not severely damaged? Ever feel the blood of the man you just put a round in at 15 inches spray in your face? And I still grieve about it. It still hurts. How long I grieve and how I choose to do that is my decision. Have you ever p_ _ _ _ ed in your pants because someone is shooting at you but then run toward that person anyway? I know firsthand what being a man is and it isn't always saying "I got mine"
I believe it is General "Storming" Norman Schwarzkopf who said "I will never trust a man who does not cry."

AND I have cried and probably still will. Again, sorry if that offends you. Maybe I work hard so I don't think about it all the time. Maybe, just maybe we will NOT put a lien on someone's house and I will mark the account uncollectable because I refuse to do so when they are stuck with a $40,000 hospital bill for their drug addicted daughter's admission, drying out and behavioral treatment at my hospital. We all have our missions in life.
HurtingTurkey
Thank you very much.

Good luck, HT.

Thank you Marital Bliss!

He needs it.

Eighteen pages and everyone is telling him don't finance the affair.

Eighteen pages where everyone else is wrong and he's the only one right.

Thank you for being so brutally honest with yourself and with us, HT. I know it was hard for you to write this. You want so very bad to believe that your W is what you want her to be and not what she really is. Ultimately, she has to be defined by her actions, not by wishful thinking. And I know you know that.

I will be thinking of you over Thanksgiving and wish you God's Blessing, my friend.

p.s. HT, I hope your IGNORE button is working, I would suggest you use it! Have you spoken to Steve Harley yet? I am interested to hear his take. I think he can be a great help to you.

Good call. Happy Thanksgiving, Mel! Please tell me you didn't go out there and shoot that bird yourself...I know you're capable...

It's pointless just let him do what ever he wants, he's already done it before 4 more times won't kill him.

Good luck.

HT, I am sorry, I may be young but my memory for some things is very BAD. Your WW left her first divorce with nothing. Did SHE have an A the first time around?

locked and loaded, baby!

Happy Thanksgiving to you, friend!

I wouldn't bother...digging birdshot out of a turkey is tedious and time consuming. I prefer to hunt my turkeys at Albertson's or Kroger!

Usually Mel is the first person to tell a poster to get lost if they're being hard-headed. The fact that she isn't doing that is intriguing, because I don't know exactly what HT wants at this point - he just seems extremely defensive. :shrugs: Oh well. Good luck, HT, I'm out. Good luck, Mel. Her advice is always pretty spot on, IMHO, so HT is in good hands if she's hanging around.

Thanks ML and MB. Meeting with Steve scheduled but will wait 11 days. Thankyou. Scotland, yes. My WW had A in first marriage and filed and left. When she returned and apologized her husband refused to reconcile. m

I can verify the story as her ex has told his kids that. it is fear that it will happen again that drives me now. I know it happened and she will not admit. That frightend me to death every wakiong hour.
HurtingTurkey

HappyThanksgiving!

Trickle, Trickle, little bit of truth....
Finally I hear "well he was a friend" applied to OM # 2.
I suppose its a start....
Even that has been a very long time coming....
14 months since my last angry outburst. I would not call it Plan A. I am just me without the quick loud win at all costs temper (what incredible freedom to have broken that terrible habit).
I am existing. Most days numb.
Hurting Turkey
ME: BH age 56 Recovering Verbal Abuser
SHE:WW age 49
Married 13 years
Hers: 22 and 18 years
Mine: 30, 28 and 22 years
Ours: 11 years
She still won't admit A despite overwhelming evidence
Considered Plan B but was told not to by Steve H. since A is over
Grateful for the people on this board (even though they tire of telling me what I don't want to hear!)

Ok well turkey season is in. So lets go get some of them. Trickle truth is painful. You have got to set some tempo to this with a plan. Existing most days numb is nuts!

Okay... sometimes I chime in on other threads. The fact is there is so little progress on getting information on the affair with OM #2 that I have had little to write on my own thread. Most of the Vets here just gave up on me because I did not Plan B since WW did not tell me about OM # 2.
Alot has gone on since April of 2011. Most recently a physical relocation of about 45 miles (I know... its not several states away) that was initiated by WW. To this day I cannot tell you why she decided to move - I just decided I would be home earlier (I have commuted 150 miles a day six days a week for nine years) and would not have to leave for work while everyone was asleep. The change occurred 40 days ago. Amazingly my 12 year old son gets up now at 6:20 every day to have breakfast with me. I do not tell him to do so. He obviously needed more "Dad" time. WW gets up for ten minutes or so before I leave out the door at 6:45AM. I work long days in my job but the shorter travel home (30 miles instead of 75) in the evenings brings more family meals during the work week. Not always can I be home before 7:00PM but at least 50% of the time. Clearly on the issue of spending more time in proximity with each other this is a better option. I also suspect (but don't know of course) that WW may be putting distance between herself and OM #2. (Just a reminder - OM # 1 died of natural causes in January of 2010).
Anyway.... I continue to snoop. Nothing but then today... in my WW e-mail... my WW forwarded one of those chain letters to several people. The letter is about roses and has a romantic undercurrent but she sent it to her father in law, three girlfriends, my adult son, and to the dead OM's email address!
Huh? is it possible OM #2 adopted an email address using OM#1's name and that OM#2 is really OM #1?
Did my WW just slip and automatically select the decesased OM #1's e-mail into her forwards of the chain letter?
Did my WW send OM #1 an e-mail knowing he was deceased?
Oh... this is what drives you nuts. The speculation.
Recently, I have decided that if it is not clear to my WW that my verbally abusive angry outbursts have stopped that it never will be. I have hopefully undone a lot of unnecessary damage to our marriage that I caused. Now I have sat WW down (last weekend) and told her that with 2 weeks I want an explanation and details and that I am not going to accept denials anymore.
WW says "That is a threat." I gently, calmly respond, "Know, it is a boundary. I need the safety of knowing what happened." WW remains silent.
I remind WW that is exactly 2 years since my DD # 2. She responds "Two years ago? Why does that matter? Don't we have a new life now and we are getting counseling etc. Why are you brining up the past?
Well MBers... I could probably write a great answer to that question for someone else but I am too close to this one and I am asking for help.
I was counseled almost a year ago by Steve not to force disclosure and yet I read so many statements on here about men wearing the pants and not being the woos I have been.
Well, I did the woos thing because of my past angery ourbursts / verbal abuse. I won't go back to angry outbursts (I hope and pray). Last one well over a year ago. Now...
WW knows I am "safe" but...
how best do I get this resolved.
We are working with MB based marriage counselor but this issue is not on the table at this time.
Thoughts?
I know some of will suspect my WW has gone deep underground. I snoop with voice activated recorder in car, in kitchen near regular phone, computer and cell phone (course she could have another pre-paid one but I can't find it if that is the case). Until this chain letter being forwarded today - her e-mail has never had a single piece of contact on it.
I guess I am rambling and need a dose of MB support and I am not to proud to admit it. Maybe its just that DD#2 was two years ago and I still don't know who OM #2 is for certain.


Blessings,
Me BS 56
She WW 50
Hers 18, 22
Mine 22, 28, 30
Ours DS 12
D-Day 1 - April 26 2009
D-Dapy 2 - October 15 2009
Exposed February 22, 2010
Me: Reforming Verbal Abuser (and I always will be).
She: still won't divulge OM # 2 despite overwhelming evidence, but slowly, ever so slowly, she is turning towards me. Some days I have hope and that is worth all the pain and patience.

My guess is that it�s a dumb mistake on her part.

If you wish to get her to understand, then give her a copy of Trueheart�s letter, which is under the notable posts thread. That spells it out very well. Waywards are pretty clueless about the depth of the damage they have caused. To me it�s like asking a rape victim why they are still dwelling on something that happened so long ago.

Is this on a shared family computer, and you have all the passwords for it?

Personally, I would send an -email to om1 saying something like: "thinking about you tonight" and see if he responds to it. If he does then you know something's up. in all honesty, this is a good reason why WS' need to delete their old email accounts. So stuff like this doesn't trigger you.

CV

CV

Thanks Help and Celtic:
I printed True Hearts letter but not sure if my WW deals well with written material from past experience.
Celt: this was on family computer. I have never asked for her password but have the computer monitored anyway. Figured since she refuses to acknowledge OM#2 that I was better off monitoring under the wire. I am thinking I should consider sending just the sort of message you suggest. If OM # 1 is dead it won't be responded to. If my WW has become complacent and no longer takes precautions and there is contact and OM #2 juses OM #1's name for his email as cover....
I hope its just a dumb mistake... Then Freud says there are no mistakes.... translation my WW is still thinking about deceased OM. Just what I needed (sigh). Who knows. As everyone here understands... not knowing is just no fun at all.

Blessings,
Me BS 56
She WW 50
Hers 18, 22
Mine 22, 28, 30
Ours DS 12
D-Day 1 - April 26 2009
D-Dapy 2 - October 15 2009
Exposed February 22, 2010
Me: Reforming Verbal Abuser (and I always will be).
She: still won't divulge OM # 2 despite overwhelming evidence, but slowly, ever so slowly, she is turning towards me. Some days I have hope and that is worth all the pain and patience.

Hang in there bro.

If you get a response, you know. If not, I would write it off to stupid mistake.

CV

I have provided WW (two weeks ago with a versio of True Hearts letter). WW just basically told me to "get passed it."

Well, Plan B for me was something I really couldn�t effectively do. I was advised against it by MB Counselor Steve. But two years from my second DD and an errant push of the computer on a chain letter triggered all sorts of pain as I mentioned above.

At the same time, having moved this summer away from where we previously lived, we have not yet sold our previous home. If you have ever owned two homes at once you know what I mean. Finally, our old house is about to be sold.

This weekend I adopted a Plan B letter from this site and sent it to my WW and flat told her that trickle truth about her A�s (especially OM #2 since OM # 1 has died), etc. would not be tolerated or I would flat refuse to sign off on closing of old house. Of course we would be sued, there would be a dreadful financial mess etc. I made it clear that as a business man I am more than willing to take a poison pill approach to someone attempting to try a hostile take-over of my company. WW knows this strategy and knows I would employ it at work. I made it clear I would not try a D. I just made it clear that lack of truth and trickle truth and cover ups are done or I refuse to sign on sale of house. I have not talked with WW since.

I have remained away on business with the Friday this week closing coming up. I am not away on business, I have taken a few days vacation and am in my older brothers empty vacation home 1,000 miles away from home. I laid out why I need the truth and I laid out that this is a condition of marriage.

WW has never been forthcoming and when she did admit A # 1 she has never explained details. I am sorry to admit it, but I am glad he died and I would be a liar to say otherwise. I did not wish that upon him but I probably would have had I considered the possibility. OM #2 appears from my research to have been a very short one or two night stand with a student from college. WW will not admit despite my having GPS tracker, voice recordings and phone verification etc. and hotel bill on WW's bank card. Although it is not likely and there is no evidence, it could be that this OM is deep underground with WW but my gut tells me no and it was my gut that originally told me something was wrong and I uncovered OM # 1. I tend to trust my gut plus all my research and snooping at this point.

So my Plan B is not really a long term Plan B but rather a simple ultimatum. I know its not the same thing but truthfully, I am more than willing to carry it out if WW refuses to be truthful and to allow me to talk about my hurt and to ask questions.

Am I being Controlling? Yes but no. If I am doing the wrong thing, please tell me. I know over the past two years some of you have given up on me because I did not Plan B yet between the post "Men don't leave your home" and MB advice from Steve I have not left.

If I am in the right position now please support me. If I am off base, please tell me.
I am begging for advice and or support right now.
And know that I am certain I will survive this life if we get sued over the house sale issue. I just don't care about material things enough to worry about that but I know that issue is something that would and will drive WW to the edge with worry because big houses and money are important to her.

Maybe I have finally just gone crazy over all of this. Trusting this board for whatever.

Blessings,
Me BS 56
She WW 50
Hers 18, 22
Mine 22, 28, 30
Ours DS 12
D-Day 1 - April 26 2009
D-Dapy 2 - October 15 2009
Exposed February 22, 2010
Me: Reforming Verbal Abuser (and I always will be).

Why do you plan to not go through with the sell of the house?
What, really is in it for YOU to not?

I am not understanding that.

What about a lie detector test? Then you know all and she will know beforehand. She will be glad to clear her name, right?

The question is: what is the consequence for her not being forward with you? In medicine, before we do a test we ask ourselves: what are the therapeutic consequenses? Which means it makes no sense to test something you will not do anything about either way.

In your case: will you stay married to her despite her being not honest? That is the deeper question here. If there is too much at stake for you to divorce her over it, then you have no power over her in this point and to try to act as if by not signing the house contract - I don't know.

Think about it,

God bless,
Happyheart

I don't know if I understood that all exactly.

So, you handed your WW a PBL, but you didn't intend to really be in Plan B. What you have done instead, is use a PBL as a way to not listen to her complaints about you not wanting to sell your other house. You are staying at your brother's house, but lying and telling her that you are on a business trip.

And as Reading asked, why don't YOU want to sell the house? Is it just that you are trying to manipulate your WW into doing something you want her to(ie. tell the truth) by using the sale of the house?

If this is right, you have many more problems on YOUR side of the fence that you need to get fixed.

Also, did Steve tell you to Plan A indefinitely? When did he advise you that you should move into Plan B? And was any of THIS plan passed through him to see if he agreed with it?

reading, happy heart and Scotland:
I thank you for your comments. The reality for me is there is nothing for me whether the house is sold or not sold. My WW on the other hand sees the money (profit). In business, sometimes a company will take a poison pill approach to a hostile take-over, essentially preparing to do something such as massive debt or purchase of another company that is failing in order to make itself no longer attractive to be taken over. I just have gotten to the point where staying in the house with knowledge of the lies, where fear that OM #2 is deeply hidden, has taken me to almost my knees. As many of you know, fear can be dibillitating. WW has engaged in a smear campaign of me for what is now years. Time and again this stupid BS (me) falls for WW's offers to be loving, her promises that there is no OM #2 and deny, deny, deny. I try to bury what know in my head. I try and reconcile but as you all know the sand doesn't work without a foundation of drilled piers down to the bedrock. And just as soon as WW gets something she wants (example new house), she grows distant and I know once again I have been a fool. I can live with being a fool I guess. But the fear of the A comes back and "the need to know" floods back.
Yes I was told I could not plan B without evidence that A with OM#2 was continuing such as a recent video tape of them together. I also remain confused "Men don't leave your house".
So... my attempt to simply create a situation where WW knows we stand to lose a lot of money is simply my attempt to leverage her need for money agains my need for her to admit to OM # 2. Yes it is possible that OM #1 (who died) is a convenient excuse to hide OM # 2.
As for continued snooping, how about I even hacked OM #1 & 2's phone records (yes I know its illegal). OM # 2 is single. No family. OM # 2 has cancelled cell service and must now be using pre-paid.
WW has history of A in her first marriage.
So why would I want to stay? 12 year old son.
No where does or would Steve agree that I should leave home in this situation to a Plan B.
And again "Men don't leave your home" comes into the picture.
So...
Here I am.
Essentially using a war tactic to give WW incentive to give up the name and details and admit the A.
Except yesterday, WW involved my 23 year old son who is recently medically discharged from the Marines for wounds received in combat in Iraq. In addition to his wounds, he has severe PTSD and he drove 350 miles in the middle of last night to come home. He is not completely well or able to comprehend certain things (head injury). His wife is crying to me over the phone. WW is essentially willing to destroy him (he is my son not hers) in order to protect her A history.
To protect my heroic son, I am going to have to give up this my only / last chance to get WW to come clean.
I would gladly trade econmic resources (ALL OF THEM) in order to have WW come clean.
Or maybe I have just gone nuts over this all. Maybe Scotland your right. I have problems on my side of the fence to fix.
But no where have I found nor did Steve tell me I should give up the fight to have a marriage free of the A baggage. So if you are in my position you try and settle for being married.
Thw world is not black and white and the one thing about this forum that I see is that if Plan B does not work, people are encouraged to just eventually D. I am not in disagreement with that strategy but I sometimes see that many people choose to try and accept the A and move on.
If I want my 12 year old to grow up with 2 parents in his home, I have little choice than to try and hang on. How can you "men don't leave the house" and Plan B?
And how can you Plan B if the issue is an A that is over with (I hope).
Sometimes my head wants to explode. I was doing well till I saw the e-mail to decesased OM # 1 (unless of course OM #2 usesdecesaed OM # 1's name on an e-mail).
In my snooping I have found previous pre-paid cell. Hundreds of quarters kept in car for pay phone. Phone pre-paid cards. WW used library computer (found her name on signature line of library computer permission list) and som any other things. None of them found recently.
MB based counselor has referred me to Dr. Harley's letter advising husband of former WW to "never bring the subject up again." I know that is probably a misinterpretation but between Steve's advice (No Plan B without concrete evidence of current ongoing A) and MB based counselor....
It looks like all I can do is NOTHING.
I got desperate in attempting to use WW's greed to make her give it up. I guess a bad idea.
Just desperate.
Ever find yourself in a situation where you can't do anything to help yourself (and you know you deserve to help yoursefl) without creating massive destruction in any direction? I think the Psych people call it a "Triangle". Common circumstance.
Well, 2 years in the triangle and I am just exhausted I guess.
You start trying to grab and make the rescuer drown with you.
Don't waste your efforts on me. I thank you for your responses. I guess I just needed to know that somebody out there thought enough to care about another human being trapped in the agony that is A land. Thanks. Don't waste your time on me. There really I guess is no solution except for me to somehow live with it. Lots of people do. They just end up with unhappy marriages.
Me BS 57
She WW 50
Hers 18, 23
Mine 23, 28, 30
Ours DS 12
D-Day 1 - April 26 2009
D-Dapy 2 - October 15 2009
Exposed February 22, 2010
Me: Reforming Verbal Abuser (and I always will be).

I don't think that anyone here has suggested that you sit back and just accept the A.

Are you doing anything to find out if there is a current A? What are you doing(you can be vague, so as not to alert anyone hwo may be reading).

I have seen it written that DrH advises BSs, or even non-BSs to go to Plan B when their spouse is unwilling to work on the marriage. I believe that even if your WW wasn't willing to work on your marriage, then you would be a good candidate for Plan B, even without a current A(although you are pretty sure there is one).

"Men don't leave you home" isn't intended to keep you there indefinitely. WHat you need to do is figure out how to legally protect yourself, and then you try to have her removed from the home. If that doesn't work, then you leave, when your butt is covered.

Why won't you divorce your WW?

Scotland...
No. I have repeatedly been told Plan A is not a lifetime sentence. I have done lots to see that I almost never raise my voice above normal conversational tone. That was my primary form of verbal abuse. I yelled. I liked to win every disagreement. Now with that addressed its down to just existing every day. Mostly being ignored.
I honestly have no idea if A is still underway. I have done more than is in the MB investigation section. Way more. Suffice to say I have a retired state police Investigation Division Commander as a "friend." Nothing at all found in last 2 years to say its still live and I can hope it is dead. So I really just don't know. I feel in my gut that if she admitted the who (I already know), it would be some validation that it really is over.
Why no Divorce? I simply don't believe in it except in rare cases of physical abuse and WW knows it. Catholic upbringing I guess.
Plan B? No such option unless there is proof of active affair. Cannot according to my last conversation with Steve go to Plan B just to get her to give up who it was two years ago.
I guess what I have to do given those conditions is to just accept and move on as best I can. I just stink at that part. Guess I am just not that strong.
Me BS 57
She WW 50
Hers 18, 23
Mine 23, 28, 30
Ours DS 12
D-Day 1 - April 26 2009
D-Dapy 2 - October 15 2009
Exposed February 22, 2010
Me: Reforming Verbal Abuser (and I always will be).


Me BS 57
She WW 50
Hers 18, 23
Mine 23, 28, 30
Ours DS 12
D-Day 1 - April 26 2009
D-Dapy 2 - October 15 2009
Exposed February 22, 2010
Me: Reforming Verbal Abuser (and I always will be).

I am certain that Steve didn't suggest that you enter Plan B to get info out of your WW. Also, Plan A isn't supposed to be more than 6 MONTHS. When was the last time you spoke to Steve? Why don't you give the radio show a call and ask DrH.

DrH sometimes recommend that men wait in plan A as long as possible (without lovebusting)...but I agree that emailing the radio show for more input about which to do would be great to do.

Scotland, correct. Steve did not suggest Plan B. If I wrote something elese it just must be that I am upset and misstated. Steve said "do not" Plan B for that reason. Which is why I have not though at one point it was suggested by several members here that I do that and Steve stopped me.
reading, I am going to take some time this afternoon and try to write a concise explanation of what the issue is and send it to the radio program.
I suppose it should be entiteld... Stuck in Plan A or some such thing.
Its worth following this suggestion and I will. Thank you
Me BS 57
She WW 50
Hers 18, 23
Mine 23, 28, 30
Ours DS 12
D-Day 1 - April 26 2009
D-Dapy 2 - October 15 2009
Exposed February 22, 2010
Me: Reforming Verbal Abuser (and I always will be).