Usually Mel is the first person to tell a poster to get lost if they're being hard-headed. The fact that she isn't doing that is intriguing, because I don't know exactly what HT wants at this point - he just seems extremely defensive. :shrugs: Oh well. Good luck, HT, I'm out. Good luck, Mel. Her advice is always pretty spot on, IMHO, so HT is in good hands if she's hanging around.

Thanks ML and MB. Meeting with Steve scheduled but will wait 11 days. Thankyou. Scotland, yes. My WW had A in first marriage and filed and left. When she returned and apologized her husband refused to reconcile. m

I can verify the story as her ex has told his kids that. it is fear that it will happen again that drives me now. I know it happened and she will not admit. That frightend me to death every wakiong hour.
HurtingTurkey

HappyThanksgiving!

Trickle, Trickle, little bit of truth....
Finally I hear "well he was a friend" applied to OM # 2.
I suppose its a start....
Even that has been a very long time coming....
14 months since my last angry outburst. I would not call it Plan A. I am just me without the quick loud win at all costs temper (what incredible freedom to have broken that terrible habit).
I am existing. Most days numb.
Hurting Turkey
ME: BH age 56 Recovering Verbal Abuser
SHE:WW age 49
Married 13 years
Hers: 22 and 18 years
Mine: 30, 28 and 22 years
Ours: 11 years
She still won't admit A despite overwhelming evidence
Considered Plan B but was told not to by Steve H. since A is over
Grateful for the people on this board (even though they tire of telling me what I don't want to hear!)

Ok well turkey season is in. So lets go get some of them. Trickle truth is painful. You have got to set some tempo to this with a plan. Existing most days numb is nuts!

Okay... sometimes I chime in on other threads. The fact is there is so little progress on getting information on the affair with OM #2 that I have had little to write on my own thread. Most of the Vets here just gave up on me because I did not Plan B since WW did not tell me about OM # 2.
Alot has gone on since April of 2011. Most recently a physical relocation of about 45 miles (I know... its not several states away) that was initiated by WW. To this day I cannot tell you why she decided to move - I just decided I would be home earlier (I have commuted 150 miles a day six days a week for nine years) and would not have to leave for work while everyone was asleep. The change occurred 40 days ago. Amazingly my 12 year old son gets up now at 6:20 every day to have breakfast with me. I do not tell him to do so. He obviously needed more "Dad" time. WW gets up for ten minutes or so before I leave out the door at 6:45AM. I work long days in my job but the shorter travel home (30 miles instead of 75) in the evenings brings more family meals during the work week. Not always can I be home before 7:00PM but at least 50% of the time. Clearly on the issue of spending more time in proximity with each other this is a better option. I also suspect (but don't know of course) that WW may be putting distance between herself and OM #2. (Just a reminder - OM # 1 died of natural causes in January of 2010).
Anyway.... I continue to snoop. Nothing but then today... in my WW e-mail... my WW forwarded one of those chain letters to several people. The letter is about roses and has a romantic undercurrent but she sent it to her father in law, three girlfriends, my adult son, and to the dead OM's email address!
Huh? is it possible OM #2 adopted an email address using OM#1's name and that OM#2 is really OM #1?
Did my WW just slip and automatically select the decesased OM #1's e-mail into her forwards of the chain letter?
Did my WW send OM #1 an e-mail knowing he was deceased?
Oh... this is what drives you nuts. The speculation.
Recently, I have decided that if it is not clear to my WW that my verbally abusive angry outbursts have stopped that it never will be. I have hopefully undone a lot of unnecessary damage to our marriage that I caused. Now I have sat WW down (last weekend) and told her that with 2 weeks I want an explanation and details and that I am not going to accept denials anymore.
WW says "That is a threat." I gently, calmly respond, "Know, it is a boundary. I need the safety of knowing what happened." WW remains silent.
I remind WW that is exactly 2 years since my DD # 2. She responds "Two years ago? Why does that matter? Don't we have a new life now and we are getting counseling etc. Why are you brining up the past?
Well MBers... I could probably write a great answer to that question for someone else but I am too close to this one and I am asking for help.
I was counseled almost a year ago by Steve not to force disclosure and yet I read so many statements on here about men wearing the pants and not being the woos I have been.
Well, I did the woos thing because of my past angery ourbursts / verbal abuse. I won't go back to angry outbursts (I hope and pray). Last one well over a year ago. Now...
WW knows I am "safe" but...
how best do I get this resolved.
We are working with MB based marriage counselor but this issue is not on the table at this time.
Thoughts?
I know some of will suspect my WW has gone deep underground. I snoop with voice activated recorder in car, in kitchen near regular phone, computer and cell phone (course she could have another pre-paid one but I can't find it if that is the case). Until this chain letter being forwarded today - her e-mail has never had a single piece of contact on it.
I guess I am rambling and need a dose of MB support and I am not to proud to admit it. Maybe its just that DD#2 was two years ago and I still don't know who OM #2 is for certain.


Blessings,
Me BS 56
She WW 50
Hers 18, 22
Mine 22, 28, 30
Ours DS 12
D-Day 1 - April 26 2009
D-Dapy 2 - October 15 2009
Exposed February 22, 2010
Me: Reforming Verbal Abuser (and I always will be).
She: still won't divulge OM # 2 despite overwhelming evidence, but slowly, ever so slowly, she is turning towards me. Some days I have hope and that is worth all the pain and patience.

My guess is that it�s a dumb mistake on her part.

If you wish to get her to understand, then give her a copy of Trueheart�s letter, which is under the notable posts thread. That spells it out very well. Waywards are pretty clueless about the depth of the damage they have caused. To me it�s like asking a rape victim why they are still dwelling on something that happened so long ago.

Is this on a shared family computer, and you have all the passwords for it?

Personally, I would send an -email to om1 saying something like: "thinking about you tonight" and see if he responds to it. If he does then you know something's up. in all honesty, this is a good reason why WS' need to delete their old email accounts. So stuff like this doesn't trigger you.

CV

CV

Thanks Help and Celtic:
I printed True Hearts letter but not sure if my WW deals well with written material from past experience.
Celt: this was on family computer. I have never asked for her password but have the computer monitored anyway. Figured since she refuses to acknowledge OM#2 that I was better off monitoring under the wire. I am thinking I should consider sending just the sort of message you suggest. If OM # 1 is dead it won't be responded to. If my WW has become complacent and no longer takes precautions and there is contact and OM #2 juses OM #1's name for his email as cover....
I hope its just a dumb mistake... Then Freud says there are no mistakes.... translation my WW is still thinking about deceased OM. Just what I needed (sigh). Who knows. As everyone here understands... not knowing is just no fun at all.

Blessings,
Me BS 56
She WW 50
Hers 18, 22
Mine 22, 28, 30
Ours DS 12
D-Day 1 - April 26 2009
D-Dapy 2 - October 15 2009
Exposed February 22, 2010
Me: Reforming Verbal Abuser (and I always will be).
She: still won't divulge OM # 2 despite overwhelming evidence, but slowly, ever so slowly, she is turning towards me. Some days I have hope and that is worth all the pain and patience.

Hang in there bro.

If you get a response, you know. If not, I would write it off to stupid mistake.

CV

I have provided WW (two weeks ago with a versio of True Hearts letter). WW just basically told me to "get passed it."

Well, Plan B for me was something I really couldn�t effectively do. I was advised against it by MB Counselor Steve. But two years from my second DD and an errant push of the computer on a chain letter triggered all sorts of pain as I mentioned above.

At the same time, having moved this summer away from where we previously lived, we have not yet sold our previous home. If you have ever owned two homes at once you know what I mean. Finally, our old house is about to be sold.

This weekend I adopted a Plan B letter from this site and sent it to my WW and flat told her that trickle truth about her A�s (especially OM #2 since OM # 1 has died), etc. would not be tolerated or I would flat refuse to sign off on closing of old house. Of course we would be sued, there would be a dreadful financial mess etc. I made it clear that as a business man I am more than willing to take a poison pill approach to someone attempting to try a hostile take-over of my company. WW knows this strategy and knows I would employ it at work. I made it clear I would not try a D. I just made it clear that lack of truth and trickle truth and cover ups are done or I refuse to sign on sale of house. I have not talked with WW since.

I have remained away on business with the Friday this week closing coming up. I am not away on business, I have taken a few days vacation and am in my older brothers empty vacation home 1,000 miles away from home. I laid out why I need the truth and I laid out that this is a condition of marriage.

WW has never been forthcoming and when she did admit A # 1 she has never explained details. I am sorry to admit it, but I am glad he died and I would be a liar to say otherwise. I did not wish that upon him but I probably would have had I considered the possibility. OM #2 appears from my research to have been a very short one or two night stand with a student from college. WW will not admit despite my having GPS tracker, voice recordings and phone verification etc. and hotel bill on WW's bank card. Although it is not likely and there is no evidence, it could be that this OM is deep underground with WW but my gut tells me no and it was my gut that originally told me something was wrong and I uncovered OM # 1. I tend to trust my gut plus all my research and snooping at this point.

So my Plan B is not really a long term Plan B but rather a simple ultimatum. I know its not the same thing but truthfully, I am more than willing to carry it out if WW refuses to be truthful and to allow me to talk about my hurt and to ask questions.

Am I being Controlling? Yes but no. If I am doing the wrong thing, please tell me. I know over the past two years some of you have given up on me because I did not Plan B yet between the post "Men don't leave your home" and MB advice from Steve I have not left.

If I am in the right position now please support me. If I am off base, please tell me.
I am begging for advice and or support right now.
And know that I am certain I will survive this life if we get sued over the house sale issue. I just don't care about material things enough to worry about that but I know that issue is something that would and will drive WW to the edge with worry because big houses and money are important to her.

Maybe I have finally just gone crazy over all of this. Trusting this board for whatever.

Blessings,
Me BS 56
She WW 50
Hers 18, 22
Mine 22, 28, 30
Ours DS 12
D-Day 1 - April 26 2009
D-Dapy 2 - October 15 2009
Exposed February 22, 2010
Me: Reforming Verbal Abuser (and I always will be).

Why do you plan to not go through with the sell of the house?
What, really is in it for YOU to not?

I am not understanding that.

What about a lie detector test? Then you know all and she will know beforehand. She will be glad to clear her name, right?

The question is: what is the consequence for her not being forward with you? In medicine, before we do a test we ask ourselves: what are the therapeutic consequenses? Which means it makes no sense to test something you will not do anything about either way.

In your case: will you stay married to her despite her being not honest? That is the deeper question here. If there is too much at stake for you to divorce her over it, then you have no power over her in this point and to try to act as if by not signing the house contract - I don't know.

Think about it,

God bless,
Happyheart

I don't know if I understood that all exactly.

So, you handed your WW a PBL, but you didn't intend to really be in Plan B. What you have done instead, is use a PBL as a way to not listen to her complaints about you not wanting to sell your other house. You are staying at your brother's house, but lying and telling her that you are on a business trip.

And as Reading asked, why don't YOU want to sell the house? Is it just that you are trying to manipulate your WW into doing something you want her to(ie. tell the truth) by using the sale of the house?

If this is right, you have many more problems on YOUR side of the fence that you need to get fixed.

Also, did Steve tell you to Plan A indefinitely? When did he advise you that you should move into Plan B? And was any of THIS plan passed through him to see if he agreed with it?

reading, happy heart and Scotland:
I thank you for your comments. The reality for me is there is nothing for me whether the house is sold or not sold. My WW on the other hand sees the money (profit). In business, sometimes a company will take a poison pill approach to a hostile take-over, essentially preparing to do something such as massive debt or purchase of another company that is failing in order to make itself no longer attractive to be taken over. I just have gotten to the point where staying in the house with knowledge of the lies, where fear that OM #2 is deeply hidden, has taken me to almost my knees. As many of you know, fear can be dibillitating. WW has engaged in a smear campaign of me for what is now years. Time and again this stupid BS (me) falls for WW's offers to be loving, her promises that there is no OM #2 and deny, deny, deny. I try to bury what know in my head. I try and reconcile but as you all know the sand doesn't work without a foundation of drilled piers down to the bedrock. And just as soon as WW gets something she wants (example new house), she grows distant and I know once again I have been a fool. I can live with being a fool I guess. But the fear of the A comes back and "the need to know" floods back.
Yes I was told I could not plan B without evidence that A with OM#2 was continuing such as a recent video tape of them together. I also remain confused "Men don't leave your house".
So... my attempt to simply create a situation where WW knows we stand to lose a lot of money is simply my attempt to leverage her need for money agains my need for her to admit to OM # 2. Yes it is possible that OM #1 (who died) is a convenient excuse to hide OM # 2.
As for continued snooping, how about I even hacked OM #1 & 2's phone records (yes I know its illegal). OM # 2 is single. No family. OM # 2 has cancelled cell service and must now be using pre-paid.
WW has history of A in her first marriage.
So why would I want to stay? 12 year old son.
No where does or would Steve agree that I should leave home in this situation to a Plan B.
And again "Men don't leave your home" comes into the picture.
So...
Here I am.
Essentially using a war tactic to give WW incentive to give up the name and details and admit the A.
Except yesterday, WW involved my 23 year old son who is recently medically discharged from the Marines for wounds received in combat in Iraq. In addition to his wounds, he has severe PTSD and he drove 350 miles in the middle of last night to come home. He is not completely well or able to comprehend certain things (head injury). His wife is crying to me over the phone. WW is essentially willing to destroy him (he is my son not hers) in order to protect her A history.
To protect my heroic son, I am going to have to give up this my only / last chance to get WW to come clean.
I would gladly trade econmic resources (ALL OF THEM) in order to have WW come clean.
Or maybe I have just gone nuts over this all. Maybe Scotland your right. I have problems on my side of the fence to fix.
But no where have I found nor did Steve tell me I should give up the fight to have a marriage free of the A baggage. So if you are in my position you try and settle for being married.
Thw world is not black and white and the one thing about this forum that I see is that if Plan B does not work, people are encouraged to just eventually D. I am not in disagreement with that strategy but I sometimes see that many people choose to try and accept the A and move on.
If I want my 12 year old to grow up with 2 parents in his home, I have little choice than to try and hang on. How can you "men don't leave the house" and Plan B?
And how can you Plan B if the issue is an A that is over with (I hope).
Sometimes my head wants to explode. I was doing well till I saw the e-mail to decesased OM # 1 (unless of course OM #2 usesdecesaed OM # 1's name on an e-mail).
In my snooping I have found previous pre-paid cell. Hundreds of quarters kept in car for pay phone. Phone pre-paid cards. WW used library computer (found her name on signature line of library computer permission list) and som any other things. None of them found recently.
MB based counselor has referred me to Dr. Harley's letter advising husband of former WW to "never bring the subject up again." I know that is probably a misinterpretation but between Steve's advice (No Plan B without concrete evidence of current ongoing A) and MB based counselor....
It looks like all I can do is NOTHING.
I got desperate in attempting to use WW's greed to make her give it up. I guess a bad idea.
Just desperate.
Ever find yourself in a situation where you can't do anything to help yourself (and you know you deserve to help yoursefl) without creating massive destruction in any direction? I think the Psych people call it a "Triangle". Common circumstance.
Well, 2 years in the triangle and I am just exhausted I guess.
You start trying to grab and make the rescuer drown with you.
Don't waste your efforts on me. I thank you for your responses. I guess I just needed to know that somebody out there thought enough to care about another human being trapped in the agony that is A land. Thanks. Don't waste your time on me. There really I guess is no solution except for me to somehow live with it. Lots of people do. They just end up with unhappy marriages.
Me BS 57
She WW 50
Hers 18, 23
Mine 23, 28, 30
Ours DS 12
D-Day 1 - April 26 2009
D-Dapy 2 - October 15 2009
Exposed February 22, 2010
Me: Reforming Verbal Abuser (and I always will be).

I don't think that anyone here has suggested that you sit back and just accept the A.

Are you doing anything to find out if there is a current A? What are you doing(you can be vague, so as not to alert anyone hwo may be reading).

I have seen it written that DrH advises BSs, or even non-BSs to go to Plan B when their spouse is unwilling to work on the marriage. I believe that even if your WW wasn't willing to work on your marriage, then you would be a good candidate for Plan B, even without a current A(although you are pretty sure there is one).

"Men don't leave you home" isn't intended to keep you there indefinitely. WHat you need to do is figure out how to legally protect yourself, and then you try to have her removed from the home. If that doesn't work, then you leave, when your butt is covered.

Why won't you divorce your WW?

Scotland...
No. I have repeatedly been told Plan A is not a lifetime sentence. I have done lots to see that I almost never raise my voice above normal conversational tone. That was my primary form of verbal abuse. I yelled. I liked to win every disagreement. Now with that addressed its down to just existing every day. Mostly being ignored.
I honestly have no idea if A is still underway. I have done more than is in the MB investigation section. Way more. Suffice to say I have a retired state police Investigation Division Commander as a "friend." Nothing at all found in last 2 years to say its still live and I can hope it is dead. So I really just don't know. I feel in my gut that if she admitted the who (I already know), it would be some validation that it really is over.
Why no Divorce? I simply don't believe in it except in rare cases of physical abuse and WW knows it. Catholic upbringing I guess.
Plan B? No such option unless there is proof of active affair. Cannot according to my last conversation with Steve go to Plan B just to get her to give up who it was two years ago.
I guess what I have to do given those conditions is to just accept and move on as best I can. I just stink at that part. Guess I am just not that strong.
Me BS 57
She WW 50
Hers 18, 23
Mine 23, 28, 30
Ours DS 12
D-Day 1 - April 26 2009
D-Dapy 2 - October 15 2009
Exposed February 22, 2010
Me: Reforming Verbal Abuser (and I always will be).


Me BS 57
She WW 50
Hers 18, 23
Mine 23, 28, 30
Ours DS 12
D-Day 1 - April 26 2009
D-Dapy 2 - October 15 2009
Exposed February 22, 2010
Me: Reforming Verbal Abuser (and I always will be).

I am certain that Steve didn't suggest that you enter Plan B to get info out of your WW. Also, Plan A isn't supposed to be more than 6 MONTHS. When was the last time you spoke to Steve? Why don't you give the radio show a call and ask DrH.

DrH sometimes recommend that men wait in plan A as long as possible (without lovebusting)...but I agree that emailing the radio show for more input about which to do would be great to do.

Scotland, correct. Steve did not suggest Plan B. If I wrote something elese it just must be that I am upset and misstated. Steve said "do not" Plan B for that reason. Which is why I have not though at one point it was suggested by several members here that I do that and Steve stopped me.
reading, I am going to take some time this afternoon and try to write a concise explanation of what the issue is and send it to the radio program.
I suppose it should be entiteld... Stuck in Plan A or some such thing.
Its worth following this suggestion and I will. Thank you
Me BS 57
She WW 50
Hers 18, 23
Mine 23, 28, 30
Ours DS 12
D-Day 1 - April 26 2009
D-Dapy 2 - October 15 2009
Exposed February 22, 2010
Me: Reforming Verbal Abuser (and I always will be).