Glad to see from the last posts that the view has shifted!

I still decided to write what I thought by page 5:

As I understood it, your H's motive is not only and foremost having more fulfilled SF himself. It seems that it is also/more of his motive for YOU having more fulfilled SF (I think you somehow failed to perceive this aspect). This is not only care for himself, but also/more care for you.

It is like trying to get someone to open their eyes and see the beauty of sth, or teaching someone to listen to a special style of music, or perhaps teaching someone to enjoy a special kind of gourmet food. Have you ever tried to show anybody a thing/phenomenon you find miraculous and wanted so bad that they would see it the same way too, so you can appreciate it together?

Whether you see the teacher as obtrusive or benevolent, is a matter of POV... and most likely comes down to the very same distrust issue.

Excellent point. Nothing builds my husband up more than to really know he connected with me physically and fulfilled this need for me. Nothing depletes his love bank faster and his sense of manhood for that matter, than to not be able to please me.

This is the emotional need defined. It's not about the sexual act, and yet it is all about it. A 15 year old just wants to experience it and has no emotional personal validation at that age. But a man who is bonded to a woman wants to rock HER world, and nothing defeats him faster than to fail at that.

His failure to stay faithful will probably eat at him for the rest of his life in this wise - that he contributed to and validated his mother-in-law's warped and twisted opinion of men by cheating.

And Pep - thank you for pointing out the impact of our dysfunctional beliefs on our children. It's why I was grateful to have a son instead of a daughter because my mother's warped and twisted body image carried forward to me and I haven't been able to shake that and be free of it. I shudder at the idea of this going one more generation. My husband adores me just as I am and only wishes for me to be happy with myself.

Hi RFA. Can you share a sexual experience you've had where you remember feeling especially fulfilled, satisfied and intimately connected?

When is pysical togetherness special and happy for you?

What aspects fulfill you? What do you enjoy?

Sparkler and KA, those are good points for me to consider.

Delta, I will think about it and get back to you!

Dear Rising
I doubt it is necessary, and perhaps it is unwise, to share with the MB forum any sexual experiences.
I think it is wise to think about your experiences, then share those experienced memories with your husband.

Caution is advised.
Especially when you are trying to build intimacy with your husband.
Sharing intimacies with strangers should be a

Right here, you had the golden ticket. However, you chose to focus on a single aspect which fortified your position at the time.

This sentence is very, very general - and at the same time, very true.

Simply reread the sentence, and replace deny with confess or request. It works the same with either of those. And exercising all 3 manifestations of that sentence creates intimacy.

These things are built into MB through PORH and POJA.

So, let's begin with tossing aside intimacy with SF to begin with. Have your and WH/BH done the Personal History Questionnaire? If you haven't, I highly suggest doing so. Each of you should lay down anything and everything that you possibly can; any deep, dark, humiliating secret should be open to the other. If you once stole a candy bar when you were 6 and he doesn't know, tell him. If he tied a dog to a city bus once, he should tell you.

In the beginning of this, FWW and I spent many nights telling each other our life stories, and listening intently - even though we already knew them. I had a few skeletons in my closet that I let out - it was some pretty hairy stuff, but I gave up the goat because I was trusting her to not judge me. That is creating intimacy.

Make a habit; no matter what you are doing, sit next to each other and hold hands at all times. That contact creates intimacy.

Your second golden ticket began this thread; confidence. However, it is not confidence in yourself. It is not confidence in your spouse. It is confidence with your spouse. It is the confidence that you can be yourself, and you can be vulnerable with your spouse, and not be judged, or denied.

Now, you can do something simple, like googling "intimacy building exercises" and look over things there. Some of the ideas you find are going to sound ridiculous, but you'd be surprised with the results.

Random, yet related question; have you ever read, viewed, or attended a performance of "The Vagina Monologues?" I happened to be in a writing class in the quarter in which that instructor was directing the local production. When it was performed, I took FWW and my MIL. It's an amazing piece of work that will make you laugh, cry, and think.

In relation to this, view or read the skit "Because he liked to look at it." I did some searching, and there are videos of this portion being performed on youtube.

What happens in that skit - the transformation that occurs, is intimacy.

I asked FWW to read your thread and post her perspective, but she chose not to. So we had a little exchange where I searched for what process occurred for her to stop compartmentalizing intimacy and SF as two separate things (which they can be, but if they are never together, that is dysfunctional).

I expected to find a process, and instead found a lightning strike. It was the aforementioned skitx10 - not single area focused - and total vulnerability on both sides.

You have identified why you hold back, what thought process make you do so, and what factors taught you to do that. Time to let it go.

It's ok Pep, I took the post to mean more that I should think about if I had ever had such an experience and try to figure out what had contributed to it. I was in a rush and didnt have to think if I had ever experienced it. If I had then the advice would have been a good starting point, if not then that's something else for me to think on. I wasn't planning on posting the specifics, just a general as to whether I had or had not ever experienced a feeling of intimacy.

It was a good question, since it did get me thinking. I have, with my H when we first got married, but after our first DDay it just...went away. It was diminshed before that, because I had so many suspicions and doubts, but when I had proof, it died.

I havent always been this way, not even in my attitude towards men. Lots of IC as a teenager, I had gotten past most of those issues. I loved him, and I trusted him. When he hurt me, I think it was just easier and helped to dull the anger and the pain if I could dismiss it as just something men did. He cant help it, men are just like that.

My options at that point were to go back to just thinking men were not trustworthy, and be able to spread my anger across the entire gender or...

acknowledge that men werent like that, HE was like that. HE was a liar, HE was a cheater, HE was the one who prefered sex with skanks and prostitutes to making love to me (and yes he did tell me that).

Easier, so much easier, to blame them all, than it was to deal with him as a person.

I dont know what to do to help that, because nothing that we do has changed. It's not like I can look back and think that we used to things differently, so we need to try those things again. I can tell when he is trying, when it seems that he is trying to give me emotion, or trying to get it from me, and all I feel is...just numb. First it was pain, but the longer the lying and cheating went on the pain faded and I just feel nothing.

I feel sometimes like all of this has killed part of my soul. It's just not there anymore, so it cant feel. I love him, but its...superficial. It doesnt touch the places in my heart that it used to. I dont think I have those places anymore.

HHH,

I printed out some intimacy building exercises and watched the monologues. I have lots of things going on in my head right now, so I will try and sort them out and post sometime tomorrow.

HE was like that. HE was a liar, HE was a cheater, HE was the one who prefered sex with skanks and prostitutes to making love to me (and yes he did tell me that).

The last time I commented on this you snorted Dr. Pepper. In consideration of your keyboard, I'll refrain from saying anything except......

Where do you and he stand on this? What I mean is:

Have you ever (RH, remember) clearly and dispassionately told him this is hurtful to you? (I won't presume to imply whether it would be a marriage-ender, as you have family dependencies that must be heeded.)

Has he heard you (not just listened to you) and grasped the remarkably destructive effect on your future of his preferences? (to say nothing of the dismissive arrogance evident in actually telling you!)

Has he addressed this? Or, has he developed plans, to your satisfaction, to address it in the immediate future?

I love him, but its...superficial. It doesnt touch the places in my heart that it used to. I dont think I have those places anymore.

You're 23! And have been through a less than stellar rearing, and some.....mistreatment?.....in your marriage. Those "places" don't disappear. What happens is the primitive "lizard" brain we all retain is smart enough to treat "emotional" damage in the same way as "physical" damage, and declines to expose the injured area to further assault. Get your husband to convince you that he is repaired, and start rebuilding the connections you once had with him (note below). This site has many of the tools to do that.

You have 50+ years ahead of you (to say nothing of the fact that you are tasked with imputing to your babies your view on life/love) and it would be a crime to go through that lifetime....empty.

Note: And if he cannot/will not do the work on himself, and convince you that it is done, you may have to face the ugly fact that, "In some cases, 'recovery' is only achieved through 'dissolution', and you'll have the opportunity of establishing a better relationship elsewhere.

All excellent points NG, and it ties in very well with my thoughts on the post HHH made to me last night.

When I started this thread, my goal was to be able and be the woman I was before all this mess started. I was fearless, strong, confident, and capable. I was the fighter, the protector, the one people ran to fight for them, and I sure didnt take crap off of anybody.

When he hurt me, I was so ANGRY. All of my hurt turns to anger, because it's safer to feel anger than hurt. I couldnt fight him, because I loved him and I did not want my children raised in a broken home. So I turned all that anger away from him. I pushed it out to men in general, and turned it in and hated myself instead.

He said I was "so angry", but he saw so little of it, a drop in an ocean. I turned the mean things, the cruel things, he said to me into weapons I used to hurt myself. My goal was to protect my kids from the step-parent shuffle, and protect him from my anger.

So I lost myself instead. I couldnt feel intimate with him, because I didt recognize the woman I became. How could I share anything of myself with him if I didnt know who I was, or have any respect for myself?

I was only able to take so much self-hatred, and when I started thinking seriously about hurting myself I just shut down. I had to turn myself off emotionally to protect myself.

Once he stopped being cruel, and we started trying to heal, I felt like any time I started to feel stronger the M started to get weaker. Every step I took back towards being my strong, confident, capable self was a step away from him. If it's not my fault, and all men are not that way...then what the hell am I still doing with him?

Every thing he did, everything he said...cruelty and weakness. I had to become someone I dont even like to stay married to him, and it felt like recovering the M and recovering ME were mutually exclusive. If I am strong and confident then I have no place in my life for that loser.

I cant stay weak forever, I cant let him use and abuse me forever. I still dont want my kids raised in a broken home, but our home WAS broken, even though we were still married, because I was broken and our M was broken. Better to divorce him and let the kids see an example of a happy healthy and whole mommy.

He wants the woman he married back, and I am ready to have that back too. I want to be able to laugh and be whole and happy. I chose to recover myself. I am open to recovering the M, but I wont do it if it means losing me...not ever again.

So he has a choice, he can either be the partner I need him to be, or he can continue to be a slimeball. I have no place in MY life for a slimeball. So if he wants to be married to me, then I had better not see any signs of that guy coming back. There are no wayward aliens allowed in my M. So if that THING that inhabited his body for long comes back...I'm gone.

I can show him ME if he wants intimacy, the person that I used to be and take pride in. He may not like it, me being strong, but he can chose to go if he wants. I will keep my side of the street clean and follow MB principles, but I wont be his doormat. I have nothing to fear anymore, because whatever he choses to do I will still be whole and happy. If the alien comes back...well I can do better.

Amazing what is there when we brush aside the curtain of anger and resentment for a minute, isn't it?

The last few sentences in your post is the one that needs to be your mantra; you are there, you aren't holding back, and the ball is in his court.

It's not easy to lay it all out there to the person who betrayed you, but it's part of the demonstration of your willingness to heal, and the M you want to create.

I'm glad you understood my question because I wasn't asking for you to post specific sexual details.

I was encouraging you to recall positive moments of true intimacy -- not sexual positions or preferences -- when you felt fulfilled.

I got the impression from your posts that you do what you can to meet your H's need for SF in terms of quantity. I was hoping you might focus more on what YOU enjoy ... so your need for SF is actually fulfilling and your H's is too.

Yeah, those places are still there. And you will know they're there when you fall back in love.

It will take a true commitment to the marriage from both of you, establishing extraordinary precautions so there's no chance an outsider is able to meet either of your needs.

It is his responsibility for you to fall back in love with him, and the same is true in reverse. As a starting point you have to feel safe and secure.

And once that happens, and you commit to spending the recommended hours of undivided time together, your love will grow. You will desire more and more real intimacy.

My point earlier was for you to think about the times -- hopefully recent times even -- when you desired intimacy, when you enjoyed your physical together and felt fulfilled.

Again, I wasn't looking for you to share sexual details.

I was hoping you my be able to identify what the conditions were that made you feel secure enough to desire a deeper connection.

Spoken like the very young woman you are.
I am old enough to be your very young, very hip, stylish grandmother.

This is the problem with too much navel-gazing.
Self-focus is not a recovery plan.

Just so you know where I stand on this. ~~~>

If you are actively WORKING your MB recovery plan , then some occasional navel-gazing is not harmful.

If you are not actively working your MB recovery plan, naval-gazing is another selfish indulgence, much like a WW's affair.

Harsh?
Maybe.
True?
Ab-so-freak-en'-loot-lee

Reread your quote above and explain to me how this is helpful to recovery?
It ain't.

If any MB folk think it IS helpful to recovery, explain it to me in MB terms.
MB concepts.

READ THIS


"Complaining in marriage"

MB concepts will bring you back to life.

READ THIS:


"Requirements for recovery after in affair"

IN PARTICULAR:

If my calendar is accurate, tomorrow is your reunion with your husband.

Good Luck, RFA. We're all pulling for you two to fight through this.

God bless you.

Thanks NG, and you are right, he is going to be home tomorrow night. He leaves there in a few hours, its a long trip, about 24 hours with layovers and everything. I am very excited!

Pep, I am working the program. Well as best as we can since he isnt here. I just think that it helps to have a basic understanding of what is causing the problem, because it sheds light for me on what actions might be helpful. I cant follow PORH, and share everything about myself with him if I dont understand myself.

There are lots of reasons why I could have been feeling emotionally disconnected from him during SF. Maybe a need he wasnt meeting as well as he could be, maybe LB's that need to be addressed. In my case it was stuff in my head I needed to work out. He has been meeting my needs but with my thoughts and opinions being like they were most of it was just rolling off of me.

I think a little bit of self-analysis can be helpful, if only in figuring out exactly what actions to take. But I have a deep need to understand everything, so maybe it's just me.

If I was using the info to just run around basing my actions on my whim of the moment then that would not be a plan for recovery. If I am using my info to help me figure out how to match my emotions to my plan then I dont see how thats hurtful to anything.

I have another question though for everyone, it came from the Men vs. Women thread in MB 101 (I know thats not the thread title but thats what I think of it as). I was going to post the question there but I was busy at the time and the thread moved on so I am going to ask it here.

There were lots of statements made by the men that ANY rejection of SF is hurtful and damaging to his feeling of being loved and desired. Thats distressing for me, since my H has this habit of asking me in the middle of the day when the kids are awake. I am NOT enthusiastic about meeting that need at that time. I have told him that, and he keeps asking. I always go to him when the kids are asleep for SF, and we usually average at least once a day. Am I in the wrong for denying him SF at certain times, or only if I am denying him all the time? From some of the posts on the other thread, it kind of seems like any denial at all is seen as a very bad thing.

Edited to add that if I have asked him earlier in the day to wait until after the kids are asleep he will not initiate SF that night, and he rejects me if I try to initiate.

I dont have a problem with daytime SF if the kids are not home or napping, just not while they are awake, its a small apartment, and I am afraid they would be able to hear us. They are little, they wouldnt understand and it might be frightening to them, and I think it would be worse if they did understand. Nobody wants to hear that from other people espeacially their parents. What if they get hurt because I'm not watching them? I just cant do that.

I think that is a good, honest discussion to have with your H, RFA. And from there, you can PoJA solutions. Maybe you can plant the seeds and take the lead?

As a BS, a lot is going to roll off. There is a lot of self-protection involved.

Would you believe me if I said that the gamble of allowing yourself to be open to your H is well worth it?

Some of my worst days have ended on an upnote because of my willingness to be open and vulnerable to FWW.

It's worth it, RFA. Totally worth it.

There were lots of statements made by the men that ANY rejection of SF is hurtful and damaging to his feeling of being loved and desired.

That's probably a more severely worded version of what was said than was intended.

Even the most unevolved knuckle-dragging males can be made to understand that some occasions more lend themselves to the possible of "gettin' jiggy" than others.

The key for a couple is managing the opportunities and the urges. The declined answer is best not transmitted as "NO!", but as "Not now, let's make sure we leave time......."

Or, the usual less-driven partner might unilaterally initiate when the more-driven partner is not expecting anything.

Hint: I LOVED "waker-uppers", especially when the kids didn't have to arise on "snow days", if you take my meaning.