CV,


I "do" memory.


Soooooooo


The idea of rewriting history is not limited to any one party.

In fact, it is an error of the brain, and how we are wired. We have lots of errors in memory, this is just one of them.


The idea of rewriting history hinges on an error that occurs regarding past beliefs and emotions, and those we hold now.


In many cases, our minds make the error that because we believe something to be true right this minute, then that must be the way we have always believed.

It is most commonly the error in emotions. Say, for example, you hate your boss. Your mind may retroactively apply that feeling for past events - in error - and you then have the belief that this hatred was underlying your relationship the entire time you have known your boss.

In other words, "Because I feel this way now, I have always felt this way."


This is the error that results in many affairs! Because the affairee begins to blame the spouse, and have negative emotions toward the spouse, then these are painted onto the picture of the past by the memory.

It is an error.


In most cases we are able to review history and find the truth, when we focus or are led via counseling to do so.

I postulate that your wife, besides her memory issues, has also done some rewriting of the past in this way.

Now, you are going to say, "Are you saying that she feels love for OM now, and so it is coloring her past?"

Nope. My response to your wife should be clear - she has delayed exposing the truth of her feelings during the affair because of the reasons I enumerated there.


Her rewriting of marital history may very well involve a poor memory, and then her lies in attempt to justify herself. Internal lies - to herself - easily can contribute to errors.


My guess is that she is now facing her feelings more directly, and only now is able to confess these issues to you.


IMHO, this would indicate progress, not regression.


Furthermore, my advice to your wife is for her to focus only on the truth. Why? Moral reasons of course, but actually by returning only to what her brain knows to be true fact can assist in recovery of other memories - true memories - and therefore can lead to an even better recovery for the marriage.


The brain relies only on what it believes to be true. Other stuff in there might be interesting, but neurologically speaking, the brain always turns to the most reliable information first. Tell her to stick to what she actually knows and remembers, and do NOT speculate. This will help her.


SB

Ok. thanks Schoolbus. I am going to reread this a few times and make sure I've "got it".

So, I really have been pressing this "in love" issue. She has maintained from a month or so in that it wasn't love, and i have been constantly pressuring. I am glad this is progress.

This seems a similar process with what we worked through regarding her abuse as a child and determining what was real and what was not.

CV

OK. I think I am "getting it". It begins with self justification, moves to self deception, objectifying and the pattern becomes habit. Right? The habit them in turns becomes so engrained that it is a part of "who you are". Am I close?

CV

just an update for those who asked questions early on.
Sorry for the list, I am a list guy...

We went through some old notebooks and talked and reviewed a lot of stuff (still reviewing)
1. I remembered I put an EP in place for her the day after I found out. Shortly thereafter, she did her own EP for herself and has held herself to it, even though I forgot she did hers.

2. My job is coming to an end June 1. I am looking forward to having a job with a more normal schedule

3. we have gotten SAA and are going through it. Oddly enough, I think we bought it 2.5 years ago, got into the 2nd chapter and I got mad and threw it away (weird huh? What was I thinking?)

4. I think we are at the point where even though I didn't do a total exposure, I did enough, and three years having passed and having seen enough change that I can protect her reputation that she has built back up with me. I don't see the need to do further exposure this far out without hurting the family, my parents and our church.

5. CAG asked if I am filling my wife's needs everyday. Mostly. Some days are better than others as far as that goes. I am trying.

6. we are currently going through our EN's (ouch for both of us). We meet some in great ways, and fall short in other ways

7. We are trying to figure this boundary thing out a little better. I'm hoping when we get to that part of the book, I will have a better understanding. We have identified weaker areas and stronger areas and working to strengthen the weak ones.

Some of these may be answered already, but I wanted to make sure I covered all bases.

I have given some of these principles to my daughter to deal with everyday problems, and they are solid. She has been seeing good results. I am hoping that these foundational principles (many of which I knew instinctively and many that are new) will give my kids a better chance than we had.

CV



5.

CV,

I wrote a long post to you yesterday but then lost it. Had meetings to go to so that was it.

Let me start with the memory thing. It is something that I have become passionate about. My mother who is in her very late 80's has had several strokes and some other medical issues. Her memory was failing badly and they diagnosed her with alzheimers (you can actually diagnos alzheimers only on an autospy table by the way). However, during one of her hospital stays a doc that specialized on the elderly saw her.

He asked her if she had general muscle pain, joint pain, etc. Was she weaker than usual. He then suggested that she might have "temporal arteritis (sp?)" and then did a rather simple test looking for large cells in the vessels of the head. Ultimately he diagnosed her with "polymyalgia" which in some way is related to "fiber myalgia" if you look up the symptoms on the web it is hard to tell them apart.

However, he then said something surprised us, my mother and apparently more than a few other docs. He said that temporal arteritis or polymyalgia can lead to symptoms of dementia often misdiagnosed as alzheimers. The cure????

Simple! Steroids address these symptoms so for a year she was on a regimin of predisone and her memory cleared. She is like she used to be? No! the strokes did affect some memories permenantly, but for the most part she is with it, reads the newspapers, gets mad at politicians and can tell you why she is mad. In short, she is back.

Now I tell you this because if your W is showing memory loss, it may well be addressed with application of steroids, her Olypmic career will be in jeapordy but otherwise she should be better.

Now for her "loving" the OM. Yes she did is the short answer. Does that bother you? You said it did. You have already explored the Greek for the use of the word love and you know in English we use all three meanings interchangably with one word.

But let me offer you something for you to consider. It will seem very off the wall to you, but others have found this perspective useful in their recovery.

Would you be happier if she did not "love" the OM? I would not. If she could have an affair with another man and not love him, if it was simply "physical" then there is no chance for recovery in my mind. Why? Women need to have emotional connections for physical connections...most of the time. I would worry about my W if she had an affair with someone she did not "love" at the time. If she can "love" him and have an affair, then that means she can "love" you and rebuild the marriage.

Think about it. It is sort of the difference between the French view on "crimes of passion" and a cold blooded killer. Both commit a crime, but one will have little remorse and will likely do it again. The first, might not.

Your W has had two affairs, right? This brings up the issues of boundaries. what are her moral thoughts on lying, cheating, having affairs, protecting love ones? How does she enforce those thoughts in her life. How do you? Your response in the first year was not unusual, but was it a really boundary enforcing or was it just lashing out in anger?

You must decide this. You said you and your W are having troubles with the boundary concept. Let me tell you a story of my life with regard to boundaries. I was a batchelor until my 30's. I traveled all over the world. I had a very "enjoyable" batchelorhood. When I did get married, I remember standing on at the alter and seeing her folks, and then my folks, and I realized that the promises I was making were actually to myself. They were just witnesses to those promises. It was going to be up to me to keep those vows, not my W, not my folks, family, nor hers.

I traveled a lot in those days, and knew my around a dance floor, bar, nightclub, you name it. When I married a made a plan to protect my vows. From that time one when I traveled without my W, I never went anywhere there was dancing. I did not go into bars. I would have a drink with dinner (alone unless it was with business people from a meeting), and then go to my room and work, watch TV, or read.

I have followed that rule for 35 years now and I have never cheated, not because I am some Saint but because I never was tempted. My plan to protect my boundaries protected me from temptation. If you don't want to eat donuts while on a diet, you don't go into a donut shop. Are you seeing what I am saying? Boundaries are where the "no go zones" are. But, what makes the concept of boundaries important is the plan that must go with recognition of the boundary.

I have one last thought. Have you asked your W for her forgiveness? Have you asked your W what her plan is to protect not only herself but you, the family, and the marriage? Have you let her LEAD this marriage to a place that she would find it a wonderful place to be?

Consider these things. Sometimes the greatest gift is to accept someone elses and I am guessing that your W has gifts for you IF you will allow her to give the to you.

Hang in ther CV. You are doing well. Oh, one last question. What is your W's posting name. I would like to see her thread.

God Bless,

JL

Hi JL,

I will answer more thoroughly this evening, but her posting name is beverlygrace. I need to let your words sit a while.

CV

In all the years (and money) we've spent on doctors, no one has ever mentioned that. That's an awesome suggestion!


Happier or more accepting? Would I be happier? no. nothing about the A ever makes me happy. Would i be able to accept it better? I may be able to. There is a sense that I can deal with physical crud a lot better than her ever having loved someone else. That is something that i promised myself from the very beginning that I would never remain in a marriage with (this excludes having married a widow at 19, or someone who was in love before meeting me :-) ). In my brain, I process it better. Maybe I am not understanding the analogy that well. The alleged emotional attachment is what hurts more than anything else.



Yes, two A's. One she said she moved the guy, the other one in 2001, no. The boundaries issue is the big one. We both see it. This is extremely helpful in us being able to define boundaries a bit better. We just finished going through the LB questionnaires. We did them over a week ago and sat down and did them today. Odd... My answers have changed... I think I will need to do the EN's again and the LB with BG.

Honestly, I think that I was doing both... Enforcing boundaries and being more than a bit angry as well. But I was not vindictive with the boundaries. I remember clearly wanting to protect the kids and myself from danger. I don't run very fast from conflicts, in fact my tendency has been traditionally, to meet them head first and not back away from them.

I have asked for forgiveness for many many things... Do you mean for the boundaries, or for being angry? I am not sure and will ask. We may need to talk through that. I was angry for a good long time. I am sure I need to.

I'm still processing the "accepting the gift and allowing her to protect"... That's always been me and I've always gladly wanted to do it, even though I have failed in protecting her in many ways. That is a new concept for me.

Thanks for the encouragement! It is nice to see some progress at a faster pace than we had been moving.

CV

CV,

Don't have a lot of time and then will be essentially gone the rest of the weekend. You said Very normal and very realistic thinking on your part. But, here is the question. Who does she love now? What does the data tell you? If she still loved the OM, then I would be telling you to walk or at least suggesting that you consider this.

However, my point is that she did had to tell herself that she was "in love" in order for her to have the affair, that is "normal". If you read a few thousand posts, nevermind the tens of thousands I have read here in more than a decade you will read/hear the ever popular "I love you but I am not in love with you" speech at least 90% of the time. That is normal and the folks who have uttered the immortal words often can recover their marriage. If she was not feeling "in love" with the OM and had the affair, then one would be/should be concerned about the possibility that you could do anything to rebuild the marriage.

So I am not saying you should feel good about this, I am saying she is a "normal" WS and as such is a likely candidate for the MB approach to work. But, you have to determine if she loves you now or not.

With regard to the boundaries issue, I think what you need to see is that you cannot enforce HER boundaries, she has to do this, she has to make the plans, she has to find her own boundaries. You are responsible for yours. It is something you can discuss with her, but she MUST determine her boundaries and enforce them. She must take Extraordinary Precautions. You cannot do this for her.

You also asked

You don't need forgiveness for your anger, it is normal. But, you also handled things in a very harsh manner, right?

What is your goal? We discussed earlier, the concept of her being by your side, your partner, not someone beholding to you or you her. Who sets the standard for behavior in this family? Right now it must be you. You were not perfect we all know that, but you perhaps could have handled things better, seek forgiveness for your failings, just as you would want her to seek forgiveness from you.

If you go look at plan A on this website, the first thing Harley recommends for the betrayed spouse is that the BS start to meet the WS's needs if the WS will allow it. That the BS stop any love busters that might have been or is driving the WS away. This is for many very counter intuitive, but it is a way to break the logjam. It is a way to show that the BS will change, try to do better, etc. In many ways it is a Christian way, "turn the other cheek".

Most folks would say "kick them to the curb", and yet Harley has found that the opposite approach works better. If you want your W as your equal in this marriage she needs to see that you will seek and need her forgiveness for your failings just as you want her to do the same. Harley counsels that the BS take a proactive role in recovery not wait for the WS to get out of their fog.

It has now been three years, you still struggle. You will never forget what has happened but you and your W can learn and grow from it. It takes a humble, strong, focused, committed person to recover from an affair. Here I am describing both the BS and the WS. If you don't find comfort and love in this marriage it will die. If she doesn't find comfort and love in this marriage it will die. Recovery depends on both of you.

Remember she was abused sexually, that is no excuse but it clearly has modified her filter on life. She needs a new perspective, so that she can learn to trust and start to be an honest person. You can provide some insight into what type of perspective is needed. I have not posted to your W but I suspect I will next week.

As for the memory issue do some home work not just on the web but with medical professionals, especially some neurologists.

Start with temporal arteritis and look at the symptoms, the polymyalgia, and then fibermyalgia. You will be surprised. But, what I have told you apparently is NOT common knowledge in the medical community either, but it is acknowledged with in the community. I know it worked exactly as the physician said it would in the case of my mother.

This is why have been come somewhat vocal about this. It is not always the case but I am guessing it is more common that folks think. Check it out.

Must go. I hope something I have said helps.

God Bless,

JL

The data tells me that she loves me now... The data for then is confusing, because I don't have complete data and probably never will. I believe from what I've read from her to him, her to me, and talked with her about that truthfully, she probably just loved herself, and maybe me a little. If I thought she still loved the OM, she would've walked a while ago. Thankfully, that isn't the case. She dropped him the night we found out with NC instituted the next day and faithfully followed through by her.


Yes, I have been reading the site like crazy and have run in to the "love but not in love" line. Is there a book passed around to waywards? It's kind of scary how similar so many stories are, and encouraging too. One interesting thing in regards to "reasons" for the A's...

With the first one, she never said there was a possibility of being in love, never said it to him, never asked for it from him. She was trying to "fix herself". Her counselor had convinced her doing that would work, and the relentless pursuit of the OM over several months added to it. Not an excuse... It was her fault. But factors do contribute. The Other guy was different. She had been carrying the lie for years and felt she was worthless and that I was too good for her (I think I've proved her wrong by now), and that she was a POS so it didn't matter. At least that was her reasoning entering into it.


yes, this is hard for me, but I'm trying. She is working on them, and when she is done, she will rpesent them and we will discuss them together.


Yes. it has been hard for me to separate what i might consider a righteous anger and a selfish anger at times. it is something that i have purposed to work on the last year or so. In fact, we just finished the LB forms and she noted I have improved greatly(but still need work)



She has been allowing me since June 18, 2008. I have started letting her meet mine in the last few weeks. It *is* counterintuitive, but i am seeing it works VERY well. It is requiring me to force myself to trust her.



I see that. I have put the responsibility on her for the last year or so. I think I carried the first year, maybe year and a half and started to dwindle.



Let me know what info you need. Her perspective has changed greatly. There is still work (hence why we are here), but I still see her as someone of great value, worth holding onto. I have never stopped loving her, even when i tried.


Thanks JL. I am looking for new work in June, my contract is up at our church and I will need work. I am hoping that it will be something that will provide us with insurance. We haven't had it in a few years.

God bless,

CV

CV,

I will post to her in the near future, but my advice to you is to show her that you love and value her. She knows you have been and are hurt, but what she does not know is how much you love her. I would guess it is hard for her to understand that given her background.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

Yes, that has been a common problem since we were dating. I would say "I love you", or "you're the most beautiful woman I've ever seen", and the response back was always thank you, but she said she's never really believed me until 3 years ago. She said she felt like I was either blind, or just being nice.

What I did was sit down with her when we went out last weekend and told her how she still has me captured after all these years. That she really does have power over me because I love her so much. I told her how hard it is to show this because I've been afraid. She didn't know that. I am thinking that we are at the "Time" stage?

Where we simply need to invest the time in assuring and reassuring each other of this?

One thing I find I do is "harumph" when she says she loves me... It's almost an automatic response. Sometimes i catch it, sometimes i don't. Disconnect between my head and heart maybe?

As for goals which someone asked me about, I think they are simple. I want to spend my life with her in mutual love and respect. I want to grow old next to her. I want us to be the best parents/grandparents/ggrandparents we can be... together.

I want someone who respects me and thinks the same of me as I do of them.

CV

CV, my H does the same thing. Or did, when he was home. I haven't actually said the words to him in a while. He would throw back comments like "Hard to believe when you said those things to the OM" or I could see it in his face - rolling his eyes, shaking his head, making that "hmph!" sound that you mentioned.

I'm not a BS, so I can't advise you on how to stop it, other than time and allowing her to meet your needs. I know enough to know that my words as a FWW are worthless and that I need to show my H that I love him through my actions. Just give BG a chance to show you.

The things you said to her were beautiful. Are her top EN's admiration and affection? They are at the top of my list. I needed - need - to hear things like this from my H. I did not have the traumatic past that BG had, but I've had my share of issues. When I didn't hear those things from my H, I slowly stopped believing that he loved me. When we were first dating, H always called me "beautiful." It was always, "Hey, Beautiful," every time he saw me. He stopped saying it. And it may be stupid, it may be shallow, but I stopped believing that he thought I was beautiful. Add to that some of his actions (pushing me away if I got to close, refusing to hold my hand, rejecting my advances for SF), it reinforced that line of thinking. And that was pre-A. It doesn't justify anything that I did, but it is an example of how he failed to meet my EN's (and I failed to meet his as well, pre-A, as we were both responsible for the condition of our M).

You may not have stopped telling her those things, but somewhere along the way something happened to cause her to stop believing. And I know it is hard for you to believe her words, but for me during our failed recovery I struggled with my expectations as you well know. When my gestures towards H were met with that "hmph!" or similarly dismissed it reinforced my sense of worthlessness in his eyes.

Also, I highly recommend "Love and Respect" by Emerson Eggerichs, if you haven't read that already. We went through this series at our church and it really opened my eyes. I wish more than anything we'd found it pre-A and had used it to get off the "crazy cycle" H and I were on for years. Ah well. Hindsight is 20/20.

I don't know if that is helpful, but as what you said jumped out at me I just wanted to add my $.02...

Yup. "I love you"

"Hmph"

"I'm Sorry"

"Bleh"

"I'm not going anywhere"

"Mmmhmmm...."

It's a connection, not a disconnection. You are hurt and angry.

Disconnect is the answer, not the cause. Quit letting your emotions shape your reactions. Let your head do it. Let your actions reflect your goals.



Well, hello Kirk Cameron in Fireproof.

Yes, they are at the top. I believe, with her, this was a problem she struggled with before I came along. kind of a "wanting to believe it but not quite believing it" thing. Knowing how it makes her feel helps me catch myself. It has become a bad habit of mine.


Yeah. I see that I am killing her expectations for R. I am beginning to see it as a big LB. I am working on just saying thanks if i cannot respond any other way, and then getting myself together to tell her.

one of the things she told me after DDay was that when I used to tell her those things and she either just smiled or said thanks and I would ask her why she never said it back was "I can't say something I don't feel". She said that she told me this not because she believed it, but because she was ashamed, and angry at herself. I believe her, but it's hard you know? Having heard those words...

Once the OM was pressuring her so bad in Oct of 07 for her to tell me that she didn't love me that she finally gave in. 1.30am on Oct 14th, I asked her... do you love me? She said no... I understand the pressure and that it was a lie, but i strive to always say what i mean. I try to be precise with words. ah... I'm ranting.... not good for me. I'll stop.

Cv

I am... wow.. I look like a tool in print. That is a bit of an eye opener. It appears that I need more work on controlling my own self.



LOL... I still haven't seen it. Maybe I need to.

CV

Well, yes, you might be killing her expectations, but she shouldn't HAVE expectations. That was the one thing that I wouldn't stop doing, was expecting certain things or certain behaviors from my H that I had no right to expect. My expectations let me down through my entire pre-A M as well, and I think that goes with the renter mindset. If I do this, he'll do this. Etc, etc.

But I do think "thank you" is a better response than "Hmph!" Maybe it's a case of "fake it till you make it" when you're in those low points - HHH is right about letting your actions take the lead instead of your emotions.

Did you ever do the Love Dare? One of the things that stuck out to me from the LD was the concept of following vs. leading your heart. The pop culture philosophy tells us to "follow our hearts" (you hear it over and over on Oprah, that whole Eat Pray Love junk - which, as a t/j, I DVR'ed so I could see what the hoo-ha was about but have not really been interested in watching it).. ANYWAY (rambling) our hearts represent our emotions, right? Our emotions will lead us astray. Rather than following your heart, you have to LEAD it. Take charge of it. Direct your heart to where you want to go, to what is good and righteous. I cringe now when I hear someone say "follow your heart." I mean, isn't that part of the WS script, "following your heart"? My aunt, who is in an affairage, gave me the exact same line when she tried to "give me advice." It's sad, really, b/c she's a person who will never, in a million years, "get it." She'll never understand that following your heart is lousy advice, it's the kind of advice that destroys lives and families.

Anyway, long-winded explanation to say the same thing HHH said:


And let her love reach you. Let her fill your LB$.

I haven't seen the love dare. Is it on the site?

Also, thankfully I maybe have only seen 2 or 3 Oprah's... Do you really think she shouldn't have expectations? Why not?

Cv

Started reading this whole thread, but I stopped right here because I recognised something I used to do also, and I was letting myself be abused.

When my abused as a child, saved and very studiuos in a bible colledge as a young woman, alcoholic WW "Came back to the Church" and wanted me to come back after two years of seperation from her drinking. It was in my head that there needed to be accountability focused on her behavior, but instaed I went to the heady, "God will take care of everything" place.

Then whenever behavior became an issue, up came the claim that "God forgave me, so you need to also". Talk about using grace as a lisense to sin, she used it as a lisense to evade. In this area I was constantly blaming myself, for not, "Forgiving and forgetting"

I immersed myself comepletely with her church, as she swore that was the reason she swayed. I was thankful to God to have another chance, and put it all behind us, convinced that if anything happened again, I would just go. But I drank the kool-aid, and though I agree that now is the time and the past is an excuse, I continued to let the threat of her falling into bad behavior be upon my shoulders. I grew in the church, but the marriage stayed on standby, until the areas she needed to get controlled with, and convienently blamed on everybody else, came back and took her home two years ago. I did not keep my clarity of though all those 10 years either, because by then I was completly buffaloed by myself. Tring to be a spiritual giant and bear it all can do that to you.

Gonna read some more, but for now thats all I have to say about it being your fault, or the past for that matter. Didn't Jesus die for us to have life more abundantly? Don't be fooled into believing you were a poor spiritual leader and its your fault she strayed. Thats all for now. Catch up later.

Amen

Ok I see. so you were trying to make reasonable excuses for her then? I understand it, but it doesn't work as you have learned. That is something you should have brought up with her right? So she could tell you off as she explained how sorry she was for debasing your marriage and hurting you. Is that where some of the guilt you feel for not forgiving comes from I wonder?

I am not chiding you for having fears and doubts and many people here can tell you how it takes years to recover from affairs inside. What I am talking about is that you did not take your fears to her, instaed you tried to understand them by yourself and anaylize them without her involved in the healing process. Maybe she needs to understand that you still have trust issues with her and how to help you with them, instead of trying to figure this all out by yourself. Your theroum and understanding of why things happened will not replace the careing and loving attention of your spouse. These things will have to be dealt with together, the objectivity can bring you so far away from the personal care you need for each other.

Does this sound familiar?