Hi, I'm new to the forum. I've been reading the site for about 2 weeks now. Good stuff so far, but I haven't been able to find anything on sexual abuse. A little about me: 41, married 22 years, three children: 20, 18, 17. I am the pastoral intern at our church. On june 18 2008 I found out my wife had been having a 10 month affair with a co-worker. I had suspected, but she denied it until I caught her in a lie. After coming clean about that, she admitted she had a 2.5 month affair in 2001 with a coworker. We are coming up fast on three years. She just admitted that she loved the second guy. She ceased the affair immediately, cut all contact, and has been pursuing reconciliation (we have stayed together through all this) with me. Here's my problem.. in 2000, We agreed for her to go to counselling because of a highly abusive alcoholic father, and to deal with her sexual abuse. She was abused between the ages of 4 and 9 by an uncle. The counselor basically used his time to hit on her... I found out and stopped it. A few months later, it came out he was sleeping with 3 other women he was counselling. One of the things he told her was that she would get better if she was more promiscuous. We have dealt with many issues related to her abuse from her father and uncle... My question is this: How does it factor in? She still claims I provided everything she needed and it was a desire to get the acceptance her dad never gave her. Am I missing something important? I am ready after nearly three years of work (hard, painful work) to quit. We never got counselling. I would have lost my job immediately and we quite frankly would have been ostracized in our church community and I wanted to preserve what little reputation she or I had. The other guys are totally out of the picture, but I really just don't trust her despite the fact that I have seen change and effort. I'm just plain exhausted. Any advice about the relationship between being sexually/physically abused and meeting needs of the person that cheated?
A painful past is no excuse or justification to cheat, you didnt abuse her. Infact, she abused you! The past isnt what caused her to commit adultery, it was her poor boundaries. She let herself into it not due to sexual abuse. The painful past is a cover up for the real situation.
What extrodinary precautions are in place to ensure another affair wont happen? Do you have complete transparency with her life? Does she still work with these coworkers?
Final question, how do you know she isnt having an affair right now?
Your church community shouldn't be above your wife's sin. You basically kept her sin secret. The xhurch should be the one place where this sin is condemned. The church sisters there need to encourage her to live faithful.
Are you affectionate towards your wife everyday? When your wife said she needed attention basicallt that means you arent/werent meeting her needs. I think you should both fill out emotional needs questionaires. Also if your ministry is keeping you super busy you should quit.
Question: have you reported this scum-bag predator who is posing as a counselor? Two reasons: it will give you a feeling of having some control over this, and because he is still preying on other hurting women! Please do so asap.
There are a lot of people who were sexually abused as children. Who had alcoholism in their families, poverty, abuse, etc., and those people never strayed from their marriage. These issues may be affecting your WW in some way, but they are not the reason she was unfaithful to you. Don't be distracted with these issues in the context of her infidelity.
BTW, it's not lost on me that you placed your job as the number one priority over your marriage when it was time to address this affair. Your WW probably caught that as well. You'll need to correct that if you really want to make a better marriage. The marriage needs to be your No. 1 priority.
I am no expert but abuse is often used to explain "why" WS's do what they do. NOT! You had better have her place EPs and get some council on her Boundaries. Thats WS babble and us BS's way to help them justify, if it helps our pain just a little bit. Her problem is poor boundaries!
don't trust her despite the fact that I have seen change and effort
Tho I do understand your feelings It is lack of recovery from the Affair and building an Affair proof M thats your problem here. Trust is something you can never afford to a spouse especially if they have committed Adultery before. Understand that trust inst a luxury in your Marriage. In the right circumstances we ALL will have an A. Affair proof your M. Fill each others En's and problem solved. Exposure tho isnt an option in my opinion. No job , less job, moving what ever it takes. Having her face to face with the consequence's of her A is a necessary piece of the puzzle. Without having to pay for her sins it is likely she will again justify them.
Sorry you are here but you will get some great advice. Do not think this is because of you and your actions or her prior mental abuse. We chose who we are and what we do regardless of our past. Get Dr H's books and read them. I also think Love and Respect is a good faith based read.
... My question is this: How does it factor in? She still claims I provided everything she needed and it was a desire to get the acceptance her dad never gave her. Am I missing something important? I am ready after nearly three years of work (hard, painful work) to quit. We never got counselling.
Hi CV, welcome to Marriage Builders. The issue is not her childhood, but that she has very poor boundaries around men. If you are still anxious about this, I would wager that your marriage has not recovered and that she has not changed her behavior. The childhood issue is a distraction from the present and focusing on it won't help your marriage. I would strongly suggest getting the book Surviving an Affair and taking a look at this article: Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?
Additionally, Dr Harley mentions the childhood issue in his newsletter about the Requirements for Recovery:
Dr. Bill Harley: The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.
I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.
The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.
This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted.
An analysis of the wayward spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.
After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts here as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.
Your nightmares are only the tip of the iceberg. They are but a small reflection of the suffering you experienced when you discovered your husband's affair, and the fear you have that the suffering will be repeated. You have no assurance that the affair is over because you don't even know who the other woman is. You are being asked to trust your husband, who has already proven to be untrustworthy. For all you know, he could be working with her, or you could be going to the same church, or she could be your neighbor. And since he won't discuss the details of how the affair took place, you have no assurance that another affair will not take its place.
Infidelity is not something that can be swept under the rug. While those who have affairs want to forget about it and move on, those who are betrayed must take very specific steps before they can fully recover. In your case, those steps have not been taken, and as a result, your fear persists. I will send you a complimentary copy of my book, "Surviving an Affair," if you send me your address. It will describe these two steps to you and provide you with a roadmap toward full recovery. But the path will require full disclosure of all details. here
Thanks for responding. Yes, I understand what you are saying, and I agree. It was her own heart that let her loosen her boundaries. However, I do believe that nothing happens in a vacuum. We are in a sense the sum total of our life experiences and while it is not an excuse, I am looking more towards the factors leading up to achieving that mindset where she began thinking in a selfish way, and then acting on it.
I'm almost embarrassed to admit it, but I put some pretty severe strictures on her to ensure she would not have another affair. She has to have her cell on her at all times, volume up, or if at work, in a place where she can respond. She has a five minute response time and has had to be accountable for her day, initially in 5 minute increments, but in 15 minute increments now. She does not go to the store or bank alone anymore. She is on the phone with me on the way to and from work. I know her work schedule and the people she works with. She has been completely transparent with everything she did and does. She doesn't even take her phone with her to the other room to talk to my mother unless she asks. I set a rule that she is not allowed to interact with any men unless I am with her and she has followed this. The one exception is her boss (who I know very well, and his wife is always present as she works with him as well...) I have all her email and cell phone passwords. The few times that guy tried contacting her, she immediately told me (and I blocked him) and he and I came to a little understanding. He has now moved several states away. He was in the military and i reported him to his chain of command. He was discharged from active service as a result.
ys, I kept her sin a secret for the most part (our kids know, her parents, and her brother and sister in Law). Love covers a multitude of sins I think, even the most base and evil ones. I do disagree, the Church should be the one place where she should find healing for this, not condemnation. It is where sinners go to find forgiveness and acceptance in Christ. Unfortunately, our current church is not set up to handle this...
One last thought on this post. She has voluntarily cut off all contact with her parents. This is mostly due to the fact that her parents have been working (admittedly) towards splitting us up. Her father had even lined up suiters for her in case she desired to leave me. Neither of us were aware of this until 2.5 years ago.
Are you affectionate towards your wife everyday? When your wife said she needed attention basicallt that means you arent/werent meeting her needs. I think you should both fill out emotional needs questionaires. Also if your ministry is keeping you super busy you should quit.
Hi again,
Oi... Honestly I would like to say yes. The reality is I have better days and worse days. Over all I would say yes. Early on, I made lists of what she said she needed, and began working on those. We are planning on filling the questionnaires out. My ministry responsibilities ended 3 months before the affair, and I stepped out of my responsibilities for about a year to fix my marriage. I have only been back at it for the last year. It was during my hiatus that the affair took place.
We are in a sense the sum total of our life experiences and while it is not an excuse, I am looking more towards the factors leading up to achieving that mindset where she began thinking in a selfish way, and then acting on it.
Okeedokee, I'll give you my bona fides: I was sexually abused by multiple men and teenaged boys, starting when I was about 3-4 years old. I grew up in a poor, neglectful family with an alcoholic parent. I was the illegitimate child of a 15 year old girl.
My H? Wealthy family. Great school system. Doted upon as a child. Given opportunities. Loving parents and a supportive extended family.
Guess who had the affair.
You are distracting yourself and wasting time by pursuing this line of thought. Your WW had an affair because she had poor boundaries and an opportunity while you weren't meeting some of her needs.
Question: have you reported this scum-bag predator who is posing as a counselor? Two reasons: it will give you a feeling of having some control over this, and because he is still preying on other hurting women! Please do so asap.
There are a lot of people who were sexually abused as children. Who had alcoholism in their families, poverty, abuse, etc., and those people never strayed from their marriage. These issues may be affecting your WW in some way, but they are not the reason she was unfaithful to you. Don't be distracted with these issues in the context of her infidelity.
BTW, it's not lost on me that you placed your job as the number one priority over your marriage when it was time to address this affair. Your WW probably caught that as well. You'll need to correct that if you really want to make a better marriage. The marriage needs to be your No. 1 priority.
Hi,
Thanks for the welcome! No. I did not report him and I should have. The girl's mom who found out did though. He has since moved to another state. You are right, my marriage needed to be my number one priority. I thought it was until October of 07. i can honestly say it has been since then. We have spent many counselling hours working through the years of abuse that she endured. She has clearly defined and held to her boundaries in the last 3 years. Thanks for the link. I read through it a few times last week and again today. I must've read 150 sites over the last three years and JUST found MB 2 weeks ago. It has been a tremendous help.
[We have spent many counselling hours working through the years of abuse that she endured. She has clearly defined and held to her boundaries in the last 3 years.
CV, one thing I have discovered through Dr Harley is that childhood counseling is a distraction from adult problems. One does not need to discuss their childhood to change adult behavior so it is discouraged by Dr Harley. Rather, it distracts from real problems and often causes depression and anger.
Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders, in a post to a betrayed wife
"As a clinical psychologist who has been in direct therapy with 50,000 individuals and supervised over 600 counselors, I have not found that resolving issues of the past does much to help people deal with issues of the present. In most cases I've witnessed, it makes matters worse because it drags the most unpleasant experiences of the past into the present. I know that my perspective is in conflict with many therapists who are trained to treat the past before they can treat the present, but I have yet to see any convincing evidence that this approach is more effective than letting the past stay in the past. My personal experience is that dredging up the past actually increases the risk of suicide and other dangerous symptoms of mental disorders. Another important reason that I am opposed to bringing up issues of the past is that it wastes time. When you could be forming an effective plan and putting the plan into motion to resolve an issue of the present, you spend months, and even years focused on the past while the problems of the present keep building up, eventually burying the client.
In your situation, I strongly recommend that you not waste your time talking about the past. And don't try analyzing your husband. I know that his affair was a terrible shock to your system, and you want to feel closure. You have been terribly disillusioned by what he did, but the best you can do under the circumstances is look to the future instead of the past. Don't discuss the past with your husband or anyone else for a while, and see if you don't agree with me that it helps improve your relationship and it also causes you to be more relaxed. Focusing on the past causes depression, while focusing on the future with an eye to making it successful causes optimism and gives you energy."
I am no expert but abuse is often used to explain "why" WS's do what they do. NOT! You had better have her place EPs and get some council on her Boundaries. Thats WS babble and us BS's way to help them justify, if it helps our pain just a little bit. Her problem is poor boundaries!
don't trust her despite the fact that I have seen change and effort
Tho I do understand your feelings It is lack of recovery from the Affair and building an Affair proof M thats your problem here. Trust is something you can never afford to a spouse especially if they have committed Adultery before. Understand that trust inst a luxury in your Marriage. In the right circumstances we ALL will have an A. Affair proof your M. Fill each others En's and problem solved. Exposure tho isnt an option in my opinion. No job , less job, moving what ever it takes. Having her face to face with the consequence's of her A is a necessary piece of the puzzle. Without having to pay for her sins it is likely she will again justify them.
Sorry you are here but you will get some great advice. Do not think this is because of you and your actions or her prior mental abuse. We chose who we are and what we do regardless of our past. Get Dr H's books and read them. I also think Love and Respect is a good faith based read.
Thanks, that's why I am here. I *need* to recover. I feel like I have hit a wall to a certain extent. You say trust isn't a luxury, but aren't all types of relationships built on trust? Isn't marriage builders about rebuilding that trust after an EA? Sorry, I think I'm missing a piece. This is the crux of m problem in a large way I think. She has faced the consequences and repented and met every stipulation better than i think I ever could have. She quit her job a few weeks after the EA. The OM was absent during that time and when he was at work when she was there, a friend of mine who was there was able to monitor them to make sure there was no contact. I agree there needs to be repayment. What does restitution look like? Is simply following the rules and being what she was always supposed to be enough?
Thanks, that's why I am here. I *need* to recover. I feel like I have hit a wall to a certain extent. You say trust isn't a luxury, but aren't all types of relationships built on trust? Isn't marriage builders about rebuilding that trust after an EA? Sorry, I think I'm missing a piece.
Marriage Builders believes in boundaries, rather than trust. It is not a lack of trust that ruins marriages, but a lack of boundaries. Now, trust does come as a result of good boundaries, though!
Originally Posted by Dr Harley
One topic is loss of trust. How can a spouse ever trust an unfaithful partner again? My answer is that the spouse should never have been trusted in the first place. I shouldn't be trusted by my wife, and I shouldn't trust her. The fact is that we are all wired for infidelity, and under certain conditions, we'll all do it. The way to protect your marriage from something that has been common to man (and women) for thousands of years is to recognize the threat, and do something to prevent it from happening. Basing a marriage on the Policy of Radical Honesty and the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward preventing an affair. Being each other's favorite leisure-time companions, and not being away from each other overnight are also important safety measures. Meeting each other's most important emotional needs, avoiding Love Busters and building an integrated lifestyle, free of secret second lives, are all ways to affair-proof your marriage. With these measures in place, we end up trusting our spouses because an affair becomes almost impossible to achieve.
We are all wired to have an affair. We can all fall in love with someone of the opposite sex if that person meets one of our emotional needs. If you don't think it can happen to you because of your conviction or will-power, you are particularly vulnerable to an affair. And if you think your spouse would never have an affair, you are also vulnerable.
Look what happened to poor Kathy Lee Gifford. She stated publicly and wrote in one of her books that she trusted her husband completely, that he would never cheat on her. But she should not have trusted her husband. If she would have taken the steps she is now taking to help him avoid another affair, the first would never have taken place, and she would have avoided all its pain and embarrassment. I don't trust my wife completely and she doesn't trust me, and that's why neither of us have ever had an affair. Lack of trust does not make spouses paranoid and miserable, it makes their marriages safe.
Thanks, I am rereading the article. I think my problem may be that not only am I not forgetting, I am not forgiving either. She has followed everything as it was laid out. I was for the first year and a half, kinda nuts. our family is still together, she has complied with everything. I believe she is repentant. She has taken all the precautions asked of her, and when I give her leeway, she does not take it for fear of breaking my trust of her.
So where does that leave us? I dont want to spend the next 20 years of my marriage with the same strictures she has had for the last 3 years. I am not sure that is healthy for either of us.
I feel like I have hit a wall to a certain extent. You say trust isn't a luxury, but aren't all types of relationships built on blind trust?
You'll understand that trust isn't a luxury when you realize the word that is missing in your sentence. I've put it there in red.
Would you blindly trust your business partner? If you both owned a business, and he said he would put the daily deposits in the bank without showing you confirmation would you be okay with that? Would you be okay with not getting a monthly statement from your bank confirming your personal bank account? If you're smart at all your answer would be NO. You would confirm that what you thought was going on really was.
Why would you blindly trust your partner with the most important thing you have - your marriage?
So where does that leave us? I dont want to spend the next 20 years of my marriage with the same strictures she has had for the last 3 years. I am not sure that is healthy for either of us.
It would be unhealthy to not have these strictures in place. What was not healthy was the pre-affair state, because it led to an affair. Like Dr Harley said, "Lack of trust does not make spouses paranoid and miserable, it makes their marriages safe."
I think what might be lacking in your marriage is a plan to restore the romantic love and an absence of balanced decision making that is based on both your input. That makes it seem like a lop sided marriage, where you are the daddy and she is the child? Does it seem like that?
So where does that leave us? I dont want to spend the next 20 years of my marriage with the same strictures she has had for the last 3 years. I am not sure that is healthy for either of us.
You need to introduce a whole new dynamic to your marriage, where other 'priorities' take their proper place and your marriage is priority number one. It will require you to redefine your marriage. Can you do that?
What articles have you read on this site? Start here. These are Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts. Read and absorb.
We are in a sense the sum total of our life experiences and while it is not an excuse, I am looking more towards the factors leading up to achieving that mindset where she began thinking in a selfish way, and then acting on it.
Okeedokee, I'll give you my bona fides: I was sexually abused by multiple men and teenaged boys, starting when I was about 3-4 years old. I grew up in a poor, neglectful family with an alcoholic parent. I was the illegitimate child of a 15 year old girl.
My H? Wealthy family. Great school system. Doted upon as a child. Given opportunities. Loving parents and a supportive extended family.
Guess who had the affair.
You are distracting yourself and wasting time by pursuing this line of thought. Your WW had an affair because she had poor boundaries and an opportunity while you weren't meeting some of her needs.
Ok, I am thinking I might be a little hard-headed! I am Irish after all... :-) So no focusing on the past. The reasons her boundaries were poor aren't important as having the boundaries... Right? Sorry, this is hard. I thought, and she maintains that i was offering and attempting to meet those needs, but she refused to have them met by me. Maybe I have been fooling myself. I am the kind of person that needs to know *everything* I can about a certain situation or subject. She has suffered depression her whole life, ironically, after we began working on the marriage after D-day, she was able to get off all her meds and focus on the problems at hand. She has largely dealt with the abuse from her childhood. parent issues, etc... It isn't her focusing on these things... Honestly, it's me. I want to know *every detail of every thing* about the how and why. It leaves me unsettled that i can't fit these last few pieces in. Am I being over analytical or even worse... something else?
Ok, I am thinking I might be a little hard-headed! I am Irish after all... :-) So no focusing on the past. The reasons her boundaries were poor aren't important as having the boundaries... Right?
You got it!!
Quote
Sorry, this is hard. I thought, and she maintains that i was offering and attempting to meet those needs, but she refused to have them met by me.
Right. Because she was in an affair. When a spouse is having an affair, they are emotionally cut off. She had the affair because of her poor boundaries. She allowed someone else to meet her needs.
Quote
Maybe I have been fooling myself. I am the kind of person that needs to know *everything* I can about a certain situation or subject. She has suffered depression her whole life, ironically, after we began working on the marriage after D-day, she was able to get off all her meds and focus on the problems at hand. She has largely dealt with the abuse from her childhood. parent issues, etc... It isn't her focusing on these things... Honestly, it's me. I want to know *every detail of every thing* about the how and why. It leaves me unsettled that i can't fit these last few pieces in. Am I being over analytical or even worse... something else?
I don't really understand the problem. What is leaving you unsettled?
Sorry, this is hard. I thought, and she maintains that i was offering and attempting to meet those needs, but she refused to have them met by me.
It's hard, because you (and about every other betrayed whose ever been here) have been weaned on 'happily ever after.' We got married, promised to be faithful, threw the rice and then figured our work there was done. What we didn't realize was that our work had just begun.
My A was my choice. It does not, however, mitigate what I went through at those ages.
Because, again, these are separate issues. Separate. They don't belong together at all. I absolutely would not, as an adult survivor of abuse, recommend that anyone try to minimalize or trivialize the hell that I went through. Don't ever do that to me. Never.
But they ARE separate issues, and they deserve their own place in the grand plan of a person's adult attempt to make themselves whole.
What happened in childhood DOES NOT DICTATE WHETHER OR NOT YOU WILL BE FAITHFUL.
Ok, I am thinking I might be a little hard-headed! I am Irish after all... :-) So no focusing on the past. The reasons her boundaries were poor aren't important as having the boundaries... Right?
You got it!!
Quote
Sorry, this is hard. I thought, and she maintains that i was offering and attempting to meet those needs, but she refused to have them met by me.
Right. Because she was in an affair. When a spouse is having an affair, they are emotionally cut off. She had the affair because of her poor boundaries. She allowed someone else to meet her needs.
Quote
Maybe I have been fooling myself. I am the kind of person that needs to know *everything* I can about a certain situation or subject... It leaves me unsettled that i can't fit these last few pieces in. Am I being over analytical or even worse... something else?
I don't really understand the problem. What is leaving you unsettled?
All this I know. Or at least intellectually I think I do. I guess really the issue for me is now I have all this in my head, and am starting to walk out my end, I feel the need to fix the past stuff as well. Know the reasons, all the surrounding circumstances. This woman in spite of her two affairs has literally been through hell with me. She stood beside me faithfully and patiently when I came back from the 1st gulf war (I was really screwed up for a few years), she has stood by me when our daughter was born missing her arm, tons of other stuff... My tendency is to see everything in light of the EM's... I'm trying to get past this in my head. This forum is the first group I have talked to about any of this.
I believe so. I have read everything in the surviving and affair section. I have also read a number of other things here too. I need to make notes. maybe post-its.
So where does that leave us? I dont want to spend the next 20 years of my marriage with the same strictures she has had for the last 3 years. I am not sure that is healthy for either of us.
It would be unhealthy to not have these strictures in place. What was not healthy was the pre-affair state, because it led to an affair. Like Dr Harley said, "Lack of trust does not make spouses paranoid and miserable, it makes their marriages safe."
I think what might be lacking in your marriage is a plan to restore the romantic love and an absence of balanced decision making that is based on both your input. That makes it seem like a lop sided marriage, where you are the daddy and she is the child? Does it seem like that?
Ugh. yes it does, a lot of the time. At this point the problem is me. I am largely not really interested in romance, though I can make the effort and often do. I am finding that as the feelings settle, I'm just not terribly interested in more than a friendship. She's working her butt off to be romantic, she's interested in me. The first 2 years after d-day the sex was great, we were romantic, and I dunno. something's wrong with me I guess. In my head.
I believe that any abuse can be overcome, esp with the power of God.
I never thought to blame my A on any of the things I suffered at 11, 12, 14-16.....things I most certainly will never be sharing here.
My A was my choice. It does not, however, mitigate what I went through at those ages.
ciao
Tawanda,
Thanks, While I don't believe they are necessarily separate, I do believe they can be dealt with separately. I do want to be clear... My wife never blamed it on the abuse. This is a route I decided to look into. It was my effort to find the underlying problems brought into the marriage, the baggage and such that help set the environment in addition to regular marital problems and the bigger ones that can be near disastrous that are simply circumstances of life...
Ugh. yes it does, a lot of the time. At this point the problem is me. I am largely not really interested in romance, though I can make the effort and often do. I am finding that as the feelings settle, I'm just not terribly interested in more than a friendship. She's working her butt off to be romantic, she's interested in me. The first 2 years after d-day the sex was great, we were romantic, and I dunno. something's wrong with me I guess. In my head.
There is no plan in place to restore the romantic love. That is why you are still so hung up on the affair. I am very worried about your wife. If she is staying out of a sense of guilt and pennance, you won't be able to hold her there for long. No one can pay forever.
I would NEVER bring up this affair again to her. NEVER. It should never come up. Every time it comes up, you trigger yourself and HER. It just adds misery and despair to the marriage.
Rather, focus on creating romantic love in your marriage. Your marriage can become the greatest joy of your life if you turn this around. It is much harder to have a bad marriage than a good marriage. We know how to do this if you will just follow the steps in Marriage Builders.
There is no plan in place to restore the romantic love. That is why you are still so hung up on the affair. I am very worried about your wife. If she is staying out of a sense of guilt and pennance, you won't be able to hold her there for long. No one can pay forever.
I would NEVER bring up this affair again to her. NEVER. It should never come up. Every time it comes up, you trigger yourself and HER. It just adds misery and despair to the marriage.
Rather, focus on creating romantic love in your marriage. Your marriage can become the greatest joy of your life if you turn this around. It is much harder to have a bad marriage than a good marriage. We know how to do this if you will just follow the steps in Marriage Builders.
We are looking at the policy of joint agreement right now. We do need a plan. I agree. I will ask her why she's here. She has told me that she's here because she loves me, I have at times encouraged her to leave and given her the opportunity. She says she wants to stay. I don't bring up her leaving anymore (in about a year), Some days I don't mention the A at all. the plan needs to get going. She is reading it right now.
I guess this is the crux... After 2 A's do I still want to be married to her. We have been together since we were teenagers. I love her and enjoy her company (always have, even in bad times). But has this just been too much... That's what i'm trying to figure out.
[ We are looking at the policy of joint agreement right now. We do need a plan. I agree. I will ask her why she's here. She has told me that she's here because she loves me, I have at times encouraged her to leave and given her the opportunity. She says she wants to stay. I don't bring up her leaving anymore (in about a year), Some days I don't mention the A at all. the plan needs to get going. She is reading it right now.
I guess this is the crux... After 2 A's do I still want to be married to her. We have been together since we were teenagers. I love her and enjoy her company (always have, even in bad times). But has this just been too much... That's what i'm trying to figure out.
This can be turned around and you can overcome your resentment. Really. You just need to replace the wound with a romantic, safe, passionate marriage. I would get these 2 books and follow the lessons in them, Lovebusters, Surviving an Affair. Get the workbook [Five Steps to Romantic Love] and use the questionaires in there. In your situation, I would start with the book Lovebusters and follow the lessons in there.
The biggest red flag I see is that you are still bringing up the affair. That is very harmful to your marriage and keeps you triggered. Trust me on that, I dragged out my recovery by about 2 extra years because I kept bringing it up. I would pledge to never bring it up again.
I would start by eliminating Lovebusters first and then move onto the lessons in SAA, especially POJA. When you get to the Policy of Joint Agreement, you might let us help you with that. You are Irish, after all, so it could get ugly!
Another thing you can start doing now that will make massive lovebank deposits is scheduling 20+ hours of undivided attention time. The time should be spent ALONE, with no TV meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs: conversation, affection, rec companionship, and sexual fulfillment. This step will make the fastest, most impactful difference in your marriage if you do it right. The Policy of Undivided Attention
Ok Melody Is giving you GREAT advice. After 2 A's do I still want to be married to her
That is something that we BH's with multiples think to our-selfs often. I suggest you literally sit down and write a pro and con list of what moving on to a D would look like. I think you may find your answer there. I did and the pro's FAR out-weighted the Con's.
Dwelling and over Analyzing. Yep thats me. I struggle with it too. It helps neither of us. Acceptance of what it was and looking to the future is my plan. Your wife has payed her penance and if you love her and want a great Marriage then quit all the wondering and get to work on you M and give your wife the loving husband that it sounds like she deserves. Start working at restoring romantic love there. Sounds like the only other issue is the resentment. THROW IT AWAY!
This can be turned around and you can overcome your resentment. Really. You just need to replace the wound with a romantic, safe, passionate marriage. I would get these 2 books and follow the lessons in them, Lovebusters, Surviving an Affair. Get the workbook [Five Steps to Romantic Love] and use the questionaires in there. In your situation, I would start with the book Lovebusters and follow the lessons in there.
The biggest red flag I see is that you are still bringing up the affair. That is very harmful to your marriage and keeps you triggered. Trust me on that, I dragged out my recovery by about 2 extra years because I kept bringing it up. I would pledge to never bring it up again.
I would start by eliminating Lovebusters first and then move onto the lessons in SAA, especially POJA. When you get to the Policy of Joint Agreement, you might let us help you with that. You are Irish, after all, so it could get ugly!
Another thing you can start doing now that will make massive lovebank deposits is scheduling 20+ hours of undivided attention time. The time should be spent ALONE, with no TV meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs: conversation, affection, rec companionship, and sexual fulfillment. This step will make the fastest, most impactful difference in your marriage if you do it right. The Policy of Undivided Attention
OK. I am breaking down and getting the book on payday. I am doing the questionaire later today and we will go over the policy (which we actually had something similar in place before the A. We called it the Marquis of Queensbury Rules for fighting. Basically it was "fight fair, fight honest, try never be angry")together this evening. I need to relearn some bad habits I learned in the last 3 years. Whoo. this is gonna be a lot of work on my end (why is it always the BS who has the hardest work?). I will post the policy when we get it going.
Ok Melody Is giving you GREAT advice. After 2 A's do I still want to be married to her
That is something that we BH's with multiples think to our-selfs often. I suggest you literally sit down and write a pro and con list of what moving on to a D would look like. I think you may find your answer there. I did and the pro's FAR out-weighted the Con's.
Dwelling and over Analyzing. Yep thats me. I struggle with it too. It helps neither of us. Acceptance of what it was and looking to the future is my plan. Your wife has payed her penance and if you love her and want a great Marriage then quit all the wondering and get to work on you M and give your wife the loving husband that it sounds like she deserves. Start working at restoring romantic love there. Sounds like the only other issue is the resentment. THROW IT AWAY!
Ok. Great idea. I will start the list today. I really am grateful for all the advice. One thing that had stuck in my brain was that we read so many sites and such where marriages just failed. We didn't know there were so many that succeeded. That is wonderful wonderful news.
On a practical note... What does throwing resentment away look like? Is it simply forcing it out by doing other stuff like the LB deposits? Not focusing on what happened, but on fixing it. How can u focus on fixing without thinking about the past? Any advice on that would be a blessing!
What does throwing resentment away look like? Is it simply forcing it out by doing other stuff like the LB deposits? Not focusing on what happened, but on fixing it. How can u focus on fixing without thinking about the past? Any advice on that would be a blessing!
Here is a famous quote
Quote
Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die.l
Quit sipping from the poisoned cup. Your resentment is not hurting your W as much as it is hurting you. You are reading the info here at MB, you are going to get the books, you have survived your W having two affairs, right?
So where to from here. Well it seems to me, that you turn to your faith with...your eyes wide open. You know what has happened, what could happen, but you also know that you can draw strength from your faith. What should you fear?
I would say you have less to fear than you realize. YOu are already thinking of the possibility of divorce, so that concept is not overwhelming to you. But, CelticVoyager, have you really thought about the concept of success? Are you afraid of success?
Between your faith, the tools you have here at your disposal, and the KNOWN FACT that your W actually wants to remain married to you (never mind that she has cheated in the past), it would seem you are in a strong position to succeed.
What will stop you? Most likely YOUR FEAR.
Your W has agreed to the rather controlling extraordinary precautions that you have set for her. Do you think that this way of living will be acceptable to you in the long run? Do you think that you will feel that her love is given freely with this situation? Do you think this is the image of a good W that you want in your life?
Notice I did not ask about her, I am asking about you. The very measures you have set will constantly remind you of the past when in fact it is the future you should be addressing. I AM NOT SAYING THE YOU AND SHE SHOULD NOT TAKE EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUSTIONS. I am saying that they should blend into both of your lives in a way that allows both of you to move forward. Think about this carefully.
Being a man of faith you of all people know that the word love, is not properly defined in english, but better defined in Greek, where the word love is actually three words. Love first and foremost is an action. It is something you do toward other people and that is why we can legitimately promise to love someone for the rest of our lives when we marry. You promise to treat her in a loving manner, and there are no BUT's. Are you? Can you? Will you?
If the answer to these three is no, then perhaps you should file for divorce.
CV, you control yourself not those around you. She is with you right now because she wants to be, she does not need to be punished to remain, but she should be enticed to remain. Will she cheat again? I have not clue, but I know the odds are diminished when she is loved, when she explores what she really wants in life, and you explore what you really want in your life.
CelticVoyager, life is a team sport and each of you has to decide if you want to be a team. If you do, the tools here will definitely help you both achieve a level of intimacy in your marriage that perhaps has not been there before.
[ We called it the Marquis of Queensbury Rules for fighting. Basically it was "fight fair, fight honest, try never be angry")together this evening.
Here is a better plan: DON'T FIGHT. Stop it. Do not fight anymore. That is terrible for your marriage and is part of the reason you are not in love anymore. Don't fight.
On a practical note... What does throwing resentment away look like? Is it simply forcing it out by doing other stuff like the LB deposits? Not focusing on what happened, but on fixing it. How can u focus on fixing without thinking about the past? Any advice on that would be a blessing!
When you shift your focus to a plan of recovery and STOP dwelling on the past, you will feel better. But by bringing it up like you do, you are keeping yourself triggered and angry. When you are triggered and angry, you are not in love. Your resentment will fade if you stop doing this dance.
Also, you can get a free book if you email Dr Harley on his radio show and ask his advice. You will get great advice for FREE and he sends you a free book, too. Just click on the radio link at the top.
What does throwing resentment away look like? Is it simply forcing it out by doing other stuff like the LB deposits? Not focusing on what happened, but on fixing it. How can u focus on fixing without thinking about the past? Any advice on that would be a blessing!
Here is a famous quote
Quote
Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die.l
Wise words. And not easy to swallow. I am filling out the questionnaires and we are going to go through them together. I guess I needed someone to tell me to pull my head out!
CV Quit sipping from the poisoned cup. Your resentment is not hurting your W as much as it is hurting you. You are reading the info here at MB, you are going to get the books, you have survived your W having two affairs, right?
So where to from here. Well it seems to me, that you turn to your faith with...your eyes wide open. You know what has happened, what could happen, but you also know that you can draw strength from your faith. What should you fear?
I would say you have less to fear than you realize. YOu are already thinking of the possibility of divorce, so that concept is not overwhelming to you. But, CelticVoyager, have you really thought about the concept of success? Are you afraid of success?
Between your faith, the tools you have here at your disposal, and the KNOWN FACT that your W actually wants to remain married to you (never mind that she has cheated in the past), it would seem you are in a strong position to succeed.
What will stop you? Most likely YOUR FEAR.
Your W has agreed to the rather controlling extraordinary precautions that you have set for her. Do you think that this way of living will be acceptable to you in the long run? Do you think that you will feel that her love is given freely with this situation? Do you think this is the image of a good W that you want in your life?
Notice I did not ask about her, I am asking about you. The very measures you have set will constantly remind you of the past when in fact it is the future you should be addressing. I AM NOT SAYING THE YOU AND SHE SHOULD NOT TAKE EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUSTIONS. I am saying that they should blend into both of your lives in a way that allows both of you to move forward. Think about this carefully.
Being a man of faith you of all people know that the word love, is not properly defined in english, but better defined in Greek, where the word love is actually three words. Love first and foremost is an action. It is something you do toward other people and that is why we can legitimately promise to love someone for the rest of our lives when we marry. You promise to treat her in a loving manner, and there are no BUT's. Are you? Can you? Will you?
If the answer to these three is no, then perhaps you should file for divorce.
CV, you control yourself not those around you. She is with you right now because she wants to be, she does not need to be punished to remain, but she should be enticed to remain. Will she cheat again? I have not clue, but I know the odds are diminished when she is loved, when she explores what she really wants in life, and you explore what you really want in your life.
CelticVoyager, life is a team sport and each of you has to decide if you want to be a team. If you do, the tools here will definitely help you both achieve a level of intimacy in your marriage that perhaps has not been there before.
When you shift your focus to a plan of recovery and STOP dwelling on the past, you will feel better. But by bringing it up like you do, you are keeping yourself triggered and angry. When you are triggered and angry, you are not in love. Your resentment will fade if you stop doing this dance.
Also, you can get a free book if you email Dr Harley on his radio show and ask his advice. You will get great advice for FREE and he sends you a free book, too. Just click on the radio link at the top.
You are doing great!
Ok. I will call in when the kids aren't hanging around (aren't teenagers supposed to want to be somewhere besides where there parents are??) The idea of triggering my own anger has been revelatory. I hadn't considered it. We spent so much time focusing on my wife that I really haven't spent any time on myself.
To the person who posted the biblical Greek usage for love... Thanks. It gets my study brain going and though i am not a great exegete, I think I get by with the greek. I will dig into it some more.
[ We called it the Marquis of Queensbury Rules for fighting. Basically it was "fight fair, fight honest, try never be angry")together this evening.
Here is a better plan: DON'T FIGHT. Stop it. Do not fight anymore. That is terrible for your marriage and is part of the reason you are not in love anymore. Don't fight.
Today was one of the best days I've had with my wife in a very long time I think. I was able to not really bring anything up, let her be herself (which is kinda nice now that i can see it a bit), and we just enjoyed each other. Not that there wasn't conflict (we do have teenagers), but it was handled the way we did it before the A. Actually, now that I think about it, even during the A, we were on the same page with a lot of stuff regarding our family, and even our goals.
I'm working through the marital problem analysis, and trying to prioritize what's really life threatening and what's not. I know her past is not an excuse, but it is a factor... Her parents don't recognize her boundaries and I have had to push them back several times and help strengthen her over the last three years. so for instance in family commitment I have a 1/4, one if it involves things with her family, 4 if its referring to our immediate family. Like with the kids... cv
I sense you are still "white knuckling" it a bit. Relax, calm down, you have a W that loves you. You two need to discuss what would be a good future for both of you. Boundaries that SHE thinks she needs to protect herself, yup! You read that right. She has to come up with a plan to indentify her weaknesses and a plan to protect them. You should let her do this with little input from you.
At the same time ask her something. Ask her what she would do if she were you, what does she think she would need to feel safe in the marriage?
CV I know she failed you, but she has also stood by you, and she has been doing her best for years following her affair. I know you are afraid to trust her with your feelings, but the odds are high that your feelings will be more protected if you place some of this in her hands.
CV at some time, you are going to have to place your heart in her hands again, just as she places her's in yours. You both need to learn how to protect one another. This will be hard for both of you, but very rewarding.
Talk with her, do not talk "at" her. Share your fears, your thoughts, your goals, your hopes and listen as she shares hers.
If you do these things, and you use the tools and insights on this site, you can succeed, your marriage can succeed, and most importantly you will finally give your W a chance to succeed. I would bet good money, she wants to succeed in this marriage more than you can imagine. Can you imagine what it feels like to live with someone you love and KNOW that you failed them so badly? Could you handle it? She has had to.
I sense you are still "white knuckling" it a bit. Relax, calm down, you have a W that loves you. You two need to discuss what would be a good future for both of you. Boundaries that SHE thinks she needs to protect herself, yup! You read that right. She has to come up with a plan to indentify her weaknesses and a plan to protect them. You should let her do this with little input from you.
At the same time ask her something. Ask her what she would do if she were you, what does she think she would need to feel safe in the marriage?
CV I know she failed you, but she has also stood by you, and she has been doing her best for years following her affair. I know you are afraid to trust her with your feelings, but the odds are high that your feelings will be more protected if you place some of this in her hands.
CV at some time, you are going to have to place your heart in her hands again, just as she places her's in yours. You both need to learn how to protect one another. This will be hard for both of you, but very rewarding.
Talk with her, do not talk "at" her. Share your fears, your thoughts, your goals, your hopes and listen as she shares hers.
If you do these things, and you use the tools and insights on this site, you can succeed, your marriage can succeed, and most importantly you will finally give your W a chance to succeed. I would bet good money, she wants to succeed in this marriage more than you can imagine. Can you imagine what it feels like to live with someone you love and KNOW that you failed them so badly? Could you handle it? She has had to.
JL
We started this yesterday actually. Letting go is both difficult and oddly freeing at the same time. I did not bring up the A like I have been. We talked about recovering instead. Wow. A light has gone off in my dim, wee little mind. We have so much to talk about. I filled out the Marital problems questionnaire and found that as I finished it, there really was nothing marriage threatening at this time. EYE OPENER!!! It was a call for me to man up a little more. We have had an awesome day today. I have just talked with her (and started listening too)and wow.... I have always tried to protect her, and never let her protect me. Now I think I need to give in a little and let her be a wife. Ugh. In some ways I see that what I have been doing in some areas is as bad as what she did to me. We have a lot of common ground to work from and really, many good years. This realization has been encouraging. Honestly, I am not sure I could do what she is doing. My selfishness over the last year has been nearly as bad (or just as) hers, just manifesting itself differently. My Son is talking me out to dinner tonight. We might spend some more time filling things out and talking more this evening. It's hard knowing the balance between working on things and down time. Thank you for your wisdom and kindness towards me (and my wife). All of you.
I filled out the Marital problems questionnaire and found that as I finished it, there really was nothing marriage threatening at this time.
Do you mean the Emotional Needs Questionnaire? That Q is intended to keep you on track with finding out what both of your needs are. I'm not sure what you did? The marital problems questionnaire?
LOL. Sorry! It was the Marital problems analysis! My wife and I compared our questionnaires and found that we are pretty much on the same page. We are moving to do some of the others later.
Oh also, I don't know if this is what we church folks call a praise report or not, but my son took me out for a wonderful dinner (he's 17), guy time... I didn't pick up the phone or check on my wife once. It was really nice... Except when i came home. She was freaked out because she had sent several texts and when i didn't respond she said she didn't know how to act! I said act normal and she said "I'd like to, but not sure what that is anymore." maybe you had to be there. We shared a good laugh out of it.
It's hard knowing the balance between working on things and down time. Thank you for your wisdom and kindness towards me (and my wife). All of you.
First of all you are welcome, but in case you haven't figured it out, most of us get more from helping than we give.
As for the balance between working on things and down time, let me ask you what could be better for your marriage than you and your W enjoying "down time" together, laughing together, being with each other? I cannot think of a better way to "work" on the marriage. Also consider this, if you two use the POJA and radical honesty there is no reason that "working" on the marriage has to be that painful. Working on the marriage is mainly working on your future and given that you two love each other, why shouldn't the future be something to savor.
Yes, I am starting to see that. Again, you are right. We have enjoyed an amazing weekend (we have in the past three years, but this was a bit different). We are still working on the POJA. I have started working on the Greek.
Greek is largely determined by usage. A word with a simple meaning, can radically change in it's context. For example: The word kata can mean "according to", but can also mean down or below (catacombs). All that is to say, it is a bigger undertaking than one might think. As was pointed out earlier, there are three different words for love: Eros: Romantic love Phileo: Brotherly love agape: fellowship or warm regard Agape is the most developed description of love in the NT. Jesus uses it for example in john 3:16, where it carries a moral sense. Historically I think the Greeks in classical literature had no real sense of sacrificial love, but Jesus takes agapao and uses it in this sense. It carries moral responsibility towards the one it is being shown to, and demonstrates a love that surpasses that or eros (being sensually attracted to) another person.
Jesus picks up on that same idea again in Matthew 5:44 in speaking of enemies where he says to Agapao your enemies.
The NT uses love 157 times. The old 124. That's a significant number of direct usages. searching for implications is far far more involved I think. Bear with me, I am spending the next few days looking at this and developing it from Ephesians 5, where Paul picks up on Jesus' idea of agapao as sacrificial rather than simple warm affection and talks to husbands about loving their wives as Christ loved the church. If you are interested, I will post it. My greek is a little rusty, and my hebrew is a little more rusty. It is interesting though, because most times agapao is used, it seems to be as an imperative (command), rather than a suggestion or nice idea...
Ok, now as you start to consider the different forms of love as described in the Greek, consider the time worn and almost universally used saying provided by most WS to the BS.
Quote
I love you but I am not in love with you.
Which form of love do you think we promised when we took our vows? Not the "in-love" form it is a feeling.
This bring us to the issue that first brought you here but seems to be fading which is great by the way. YOUR ACTIONS toward the woman you have promised to love and who has apparently for the last few years been trying to show you love.
Not all marriages can be saved, but marriages where the WS ends the affairs, asks for mercy, and then shows that they love their spouse are those that are high on the list of marriages that should be saved if possible. Yours is in this category right?
CV you have been blessed in ways that you cannot see yet. Your W has been blessed in ways that perhaps she is starting to see. Work together, talk together, and then learn to live and love together. You can do this and I think she wants to do this very badly.
No punishing, that is God's work. Time for learning and growth.
If I believed in psychics... perhaps what has helped most reading the forum in the last few days is seeing that there really is nothing new under the sun. October 13, 2007 my wife told me "I'm not in love with you". Needless to say, I was crushed. Over the next several months she would say almost that identical thing, "I love you, but not like a husband loves a wife". I did later find that she was saying it under duress from the OM quite a bit, or when her pride flared up... But it was true. She wasn't loving me the way she was supposed to, and I was certainly mixed baggage there. She said some pretty harsh things to me, laid some pretty strict requirements on me in order to stay married. As I got better at doing them, she became angrier and more confused. I think in MB terms I was making deposits in the LB. I was aware it would be hard work when we married and I promised only to ever leave her or stop working if there was an A.
Speaking in strictly Christian terms here (This is where I operate more effectively I think/hope), how do I lay my life down repeatedly for my wife? That will take much more self examination. "To the point of death" is what Ephesians 5 is saying. That's a big pair of shoes to walk in. I am hoping I am man enough to extend the mercy and grace needed to do this. I realized that I have been punishing a lot over the last three years. I really need to retrain myself. That might be hardest. It seems that self discipline is the first thing to go in an A for both the H and the W.
Oh also, I don't know if this is what we church folks call a praise report or not, but my son took me out for a wonderful dinner (he's 17), guy time... I didn't pick up the phone or check on my wife once. It was really nice... Except when i came home. She was freaked out because she had sent several texts and when i didn't respond she said she didn't know how to act! I said act normal and she said "I'd like to, but not sure what that is anymore." maybe you had to be there. We shared a good laugh out of it.
CV, I wanted to second JL's advice that it is a good idea to spend as much time as possible with your WIFE. That is what will benefit your marriage. Secondly, it is a good idea to keep tabs on each other when you are apart. That is a good thing, not a bad thing. It is too much trust that destroys marriages. If you are in touch with each other all day long it makes it much harder to carry on a secret second life.
I am curious why your wife didn't go with you to dinner with your son?
[quote=celticvoyager] CV, I wanted to second JL's advice that it is a good idea to spend as much time as possible with your WIFE. That is what will benefit your marriage. Secondly, it is a good idea to keep tabs on each other when you are apart. That is a good thing, not a bad thing. It is too much trust that destroys marriages. If you are in touch with each other all day long it makes it much harder to carry on a secret second life.
I am curious why your wife didn't go with you to dinner with your son?
Hi ML,
Thanks for that. We are (and have been) in touch with each other every day (even when she was engaged in the A). Then she worked 40 miles away, now she works for a friend of mine and one of our elders in our church. The contact is more frequent. We talk on and off all day, via txt or chat. She holds herself accountable when she goes to the ladies room, when someone says hello in the hallway, etc... We have lunch several times a week together. My schedule is flexible and I can pop in anytime (and sometimes do). We spend so much time together that the kids are often jealous of us. Ours are older, 20, 18 and 17 now.
We try to make time for one on one with the kids. Always have. spend time with them, talk with them, etc... My 17year old just signed up for the USMC (kind of a family tradition), and he asked that I go with him for a man-to-man talk about it. He wanted to know what my experience was in the Corps and what to look out for, jobs available, etc... and to just hang out and "be men". My wife was with my daughter and son's GF. They went for a bite and picked up some dessert for everyone. It was really kind of a "normal" evening if that makes sense.
My father used to tell me that the two main motivators in our lives were fear and greed. Let me appeal to your greed for a moment. You said
Quote
That will take much more self examination. "To the point of death" is what Ephesians 5 is saying. That's a big pair of shoes to walk in. I am hoping I am man enough to extend the mercy and grace needed to do this. I realized that I have been punishing a lot over the last three years. I really need to retrain myself. That might be hardest. It seems that self discipline is the first thing to go in an A for both the H and the W.
First, excellent observations about yourself.
Now let's get to appealing to your greed for a moment. Are you happy with your wave below you in your way of thinking? Do you think she is happy although she may have accepted her status as a second class citizen? If you are punishing, she is second class right?
Now consider this, would you be happier if your W was at your side rather than below/behind you? Would you be happier if she was happier and had the strength to help you when you needed it? Would you feel safer if she could share with you one on one her fears, her love, her needs, and her worries about you? Would you feel better if you could do the same with her? She can best do this IF she is on the same level as you, you will be best able to share and seek support if you are on the same level as her.
CV, you need to life her up to your level. You will be happier because she will be happier. You will be safer, because she will be your partner again maybe for the very first time. CV, it takes a strong man to lift someone up and the only question remaining is: "Are you strong enough to do this and then reap the rewards for doing it?"
You see, I am appealing to your greed, your desire for a better life, a better marriage, a better sense of love. What is stopping you is your FEAR that she may hurt you, but you are hurting yourself now by not lifting her into her most effective position...being your partner.
MB offers you the tools to do this. The experience here indicates that if you do and she is as you say, that your life will be better than you have imagined.
My father used to tell me that the two main motivators in our lives were fear and greed. Let me appeal to your greed for a moment. First, excellent observations about yourself.
Now let's get to appealing to your greed for a moment. Are you happy with your wave below you in your way of thinking? Do you think she is happy although she may have accepted her status as a second class citizen? If you are punishing, she is second class right?
Now consider this, would you be happier if your W was at your side rather than below/behind you? Would you be happier if she was happier and had the strength to help you when you needed it? Would you feel safer if she could share with you one on one her fears, her love, her needs, and her worries about you? Would you feel better if you could do the same with her? She can best do this IF she is on the same level as you, you will be best able to share and seek support if you are on the same level as her.
CV, you need to life her up to your level. You will be happier because she will be happier. You will be safer, because she will be your partner again maybe for the very first time. CV, it takes a strong man to lift someone up and the only question remaining is: "Are you strong enough to do this and then reap the rewards for doing it?"
You see, I am appealing to your greed, your desire for a better life, a better marriage, a better sense of love. What is stopping you is your FEAR that she may hurt you, but you are hurting yourself now by not lifting her into her most effective position...being your partner.
MB offers you the tools to do this. The experience here indicates that if you do and she is as you say, that your life will be better than you have imagined.
Your call which will it be? Fear or Greed.
God Bless,
JL
JL, no, I am not happy with my wife below me. I have realized I am making her a 2nd class citizen, and have stopped putting my foot on her neck every time we talk.
I understand... Constantly punishing her is demeaning and doesn't give her a chance to shine. This is what I've been trying to do more of recently. In some areas (with the kids) I have been good at lifting her up and putting her beside me. I did that early on. But privately I think I haven't done so good at it. We finished the EN questionnaire tonight. I see where I have really failed. Yes, it is fear that has gripped me (and I don't like admitting that, but it is what it is). My W says she has noticed a change in me in the few weeks I've been working through the MB stuff. I started it before finding the group. I think I'm ready to be a little greedy! ;-)
I did not tell you the rest of his statement. He said if you ever run into someone that doesn't seem to be motivated by fear or greed...stay away from them, they are dangerous.
I always thought that to some extent fear and greed, where like Harley's giver/taker view of things. We are all after all human.
Have you told your W what you fear? Have you told her you want her as a partner, lover, wife, friend, and not someone you have to watch, check on, etc? Once you do those things then, the two of you can figure out how to protect each other.
The needs questionaire and the LB questionaire can be real eye openers. But, they can lead to true insight and therefore progress.
You are doing fine CV, really you are. Keep talking to your wife.
I will be off on travel for a week or so, but let me leave you with something to consider. Did you notice that you commented on your W's assessment of your behavior lately? I sensed you were both glad that she noticed and glad that you were making a positive impact on her. You know something that perhaps she doesn't realize yet, and perhaps that is your source of fear.
You know how much power she has over you, you know you want and need her assurances and reassurances, don't you? You know that despite all she has done, you still love her and want her back and it frightens you doesn't it? She does not realize this yet and you worry that when she finds out, she will exploit your weakness for her.
Am I getting close? CV that is what all of the tools here are for. You make you stronger by making you more open, more honest, and more aware of what you need and what you need to provide to your partner.
If my supposition is correct, I wonder what she would say if you told her how much power she has, how much you need her in your life, and how much you love her and you fear it. I wonder. But, you know what? I'm guessing you would touch her heart in ways that perhaps you never have.
Just remember something else, preachers and teachers tend to hold themselves close for fear people will really know them: Fear that their power to persuade will be diminished. You opening up to her may well be what protects you and your marriage my friend. Think about it.
Have I told her? No. I haven't. I have told her that I want her as a partner, lover, wife and friend. In fact, I have always maintained she was my best friend, even when she was cheating. At least I had that one done... I have told her other things on and off... What i am finding is that I am needing to undo some of my schizophrenia from the first year and a half after d-day.
The questionnaires were really difficult for us. Oddly, we compared our ratings and were pretty much on the same page across the board.
I will be here in a week! thanks for the encouragement. I did not notice that I commented on her assessment of my behavior. We are both glad. Yes, I think you are spot on.She has no idea how devoted, loved and cherished she is by me, nor does she realize how much I want her and how much power she really has. Yes, the tendency in ministry is to "not make yourself a target". The constant struggle is to not put on a false face. This gives us something positive and good to focus on tomorrow.
maybe this will help. I've had a rough few days. A few days ago, after nearly three years of going through the same routine, my wife finally said she was in love with the 2nd yahoo. The first A was short and miserable for her. The second I think was quite a bit different. She was still miserable, but I have been arguing with her on and off for the last 3yrs that I believe everything she did pointed to love. She said no.
Finally, this last week she admits that I was right. Now... I am devastated again. I knew it, but didn't want to believe it. Know and "knowing" are almost always different... Ugh. Now I have another question in my brain... Did she not love *me* during that time? Honestly, I am not sure I want to be married to her if that's true, no matter what changes happen.
I instituted NC in a very unique way (not as Dr. Harley Suggested), but it seems to have worked... The OM has not tried contact in 2.5 years.
Really?!?! I would really love to believe that, but... I know my story is not unique, but everything she said.... how she treated me... what she told the OM... All lies?
Now I have another question in my brain... Did she not love *me* during that time? Honestly, I am not sure I want to be married to her if that's true, no matter what changes happen.
This is a no win question. There is nothing loving about an affair to you or even the OP. APs use each other for selfish reasons. Maybe there are feelings of 'love' but it sure is not a healthy one when you look how twisted the behavior is.
If she loved you but could still cheat, then how could she? If she didn't love you and cheated, then why is she here now?
You are going to torture yourself. The answer sucks either way...and since the answer is coming from the woman who lied to you and you don't trust...well how do you know if that answer is real or not?
One of the hardest things you will have to deal with is coming to terms with you can't apply logic to crazy.
This is a no win question. There is nothing loving about an affair to you or even the OP. APs use each other for selfish reasons. Maybe there are feelings of 'love' but it sure is not a healthy one when you look how twisted the behavior is.
If she loved you but could still cheat, then how could she? If she didn't love you and cheated, then why is she here now?
You are going to torture yourself. The answer sucks either way...and since the answer is coming from the woman who lied to you and you don't trust...well how do you know if that answer is real or not?
One of the hardest things you will have to deal with is coming to terms with you can't apply logic to crazy.
I agree. It's like being asked the question "do you still beat your wife". However, it's not about winning or losing for me. It's simply about knowing the truth of it. Maybe I will never know... I dunno. I like that you can't apply logic to crazy, but I think I need to understand crazy... At least a little better than I do now. It really helps my brain process things.
Honestly, I have been crazy about this woman since I was 17 and she was 15. Even when she was cheating, I was crazy in love with her.
I didn't mean it in the literal sense of you winning or losing something as much as what will it change in the big picture.
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It's simply about knowing the truth of it. Maybe I will never know... I dunno.
Her answer cannot be proven either way...it will never be a cold hard fact. You will have to take her word for it and considering the craziness going on in a WS's head during the affair...well...
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I think I need to understand crazy... At least a little better than I do now. It really helps my brain process things.
I can understand that. The brain works that way and your thinking is very normal BTW.
Thanks for this. I think I know you are right... Now I have another problem. Have I coerced her into admitting something that wasn't true?
You know how they say that a person's greatest gifts are also sometimes his greatest weaknesses? Mine can be to be very convincing in an arguement (can't tell here)... Anyway, I fear I may have mucked it up more
CV "When I drink whiskey I drink whisky, when I drink water I drink water" Mick-o-line O'Flynn
So this is a crazy question, as we are waiting for the books (tomorrow I hope!)... Does the "fog" extend to the BS as well? If so, it would explain how I feel a lot of the time... Dazed and confused. Like my brain is running independent of my body.
We learned the hard way that sleep is very important for both of us. Her because of the Fibromyalgia and the eye problems, me because of my wee little brain which never shuts off anymore. When I'm tired I do many more LB's...
Really?!?! I would really love to believe that, but... I know my story is not unique, but everything she said.... how she treated me... what she told the OM... All lies?
cv
A lot of affairees, consciously or subconsciously, need to build up the romantic side of a tawdry affair because they know how wrong it is. See, if they're "in love" it's okay to jump the bones of someone who isn't their spouse. It's a part of the fog, CV. My DH said he was never "in love" with his affair partner - he said he didn't even know why he told her that.
Simple answer: If they were 'in love' the affair would be 'pure' instead of 'tawdry' It permitted them to have sex with a person who wasn't their spouse. So they said it. Next question?
Waywards can be terribly cruel to their loved ones while in the fog - it's the addiction speaking.
I think you're really comparing apples to oranges if you're trying to figure out your "affairing WW" vs. your "faithful wife."
As far as what she told OM, no. They weren't lies at the time. They were part of the construction of the affair. It wasn't that they were lies or truth - they weren't reality. There's an important distinction. It's why you need to focus more on affair-proofing your M. What you're doing right now is dissecting the affair.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing - you do need to have an understanding of that part of your reality. What I AM saying is that understanding whether or not some portion of the fogbabble is 'true' or 'false' or 'questionable', etc., still won't change your game plan for preventing this from happening again.
I am trying to maintain a healthy balance. Thanks for making the distinction between reality and the affair. This helps greatly I think. And you are right it doesn't change the game plan.
Did you see my question above about the "fog" extending to the BS? Is that possible? All the confusion, etc that comes along with finding out about the A?
I know many of you are talking to my FWW on her thread. Thanks for that. I know I'm not supposed to interact on her thread. Can I do it here?
The last two days have been rough (but good) for both of us. The comment on her thread about rewriting history was interesting, as were the comments about her being generally dishonest.
No, generally she no longer has a problem (used to in a big way) being honest about most things we talk about. I've thought about this a lot in the last 2 years or so... In fact, I think she is generally honest about everything but the affair. Let me clarify... We are not talking about where she was, what she did, etc... We have done numerous timelines and such. Filled in details, made logical deductions when details couldn't be remembered.
The issue we are largely facing is dealing with what she felt and thought. Part of the problem is that she has FM and that causes memory issues. Part of the problem is the whirlwind... I was a nutcase (probably certifiable) after I found out. I did some things to the OM I should probably be in jail for right now.
All that is to say there really has been no contact outside of me having "met" him a few times.
I wonder if in all the confusion, insanity and drama if it wasn't my fww that was rewriting history, but me. I interrogated her on many occasions. I yelled, screamed, argued. We didn't sleep a lot or eat a lot the first year. I slept about an hour a night the first 5 or 6 weeks and then my body gave out. I ended up on bed rest for exhaustion, dehydration and not having eaten in several weeks (I lost 25lbs in the first 2 months and am not a big guy).
I wanted answers and I wanted them immediately. I was a Marine. I know how to turn the Marine on and off. I was in D.I. mode a lot of the time. Is it possible that I was doing this and not her?
It's really not a great idea to take issues on your W's thread and bring them here. In general, you shouldn't be reading, involving yourself in what she is getting help for on her thread.
But to answer your Q, if you could be the cause of the issues of O&H, because of your reactions the first year the answer is no. Because having two As and hiding one of them for years are red flags for having a SSL (secret second life) and issues with PORH (radical honesty).
But OTOH, having AOs, DJs when your W did try to tell you the truth could have exacerbated the problem. Have you read up on the O&H articles under the Q&A section?
For avoid trouble liars or conflict avoiders, it is important that you don't "punish" her for telling you the truth in the future. Because she needs to become radically honest with you about her thoughts and feelings...it is extremely important in meeting ENs, POJA etc.
Anyway, I don't think I have posted to you yet so welcome to MB!
It's really not a great idea to take issues on your W's thread and bring them here. In general, you shouldn't be reading, involving yourself in what she is getting help for on her thread.
But to answer your Q, if you could be the cause of the issues of O&H, because of your reactions the first year the answer is no. Because having two As and hiding one of them for years are red flags for having a SSL (secret second life) and issues with PORH (radical honesty).
But OTOH, having AOs, DJs when your W did try to tell you the truth could have exacerbated the problem. Have you read up on the O&H articles under the Q&A section?
For avoid trouble liars or conflict avoiders, it is important that you don't "punish" her for telling you the truth in the future. Because she needs to become radically honest with you about her thoughts and feelings...it is extremely important in meeting ENs, POJA etc.
Anyway, I don't think I have posted to you yet so welcome to MB!
SuzieQ, Et al..
Suzie, Thanks for the welcome! I do see that i have the tendency quite often to punish her for the truth. I have read them, spent the day reading them again on and off. She has bared the grim details of the A. I asked for every detail I could think of. I wonder if my desire to know has backfired.
It was comforting to know that as we read the site, there were many things we did right, even though we did them not knowing what we were doing. Been making and withdrawing deposits in the lb like crazy.
I am finding it very hard to let my wall of self-protection down. I don't want to be hurt again.
The idea of rewriting history is not limited to any one party.
In fact, it is an error of the brain, and how we are wired. We have lots of errors in memory, this is just one of them.
The idea of rewriting history hinges on an error that occurs regarding past beliefs and emotions, and those we hold now.
In many cases, our minds make the error that because we believe something to be true right this minute, then that must be the way we have always believed.
It is most commonly the error in emotions. Say, for example, you hate your boss. Your mind may retroactively apply that feeling for past events - in error - and you then have the belief that this hatred was underlying your relationship the entire time you have known your boss.
In other words, "Because I feel this way now, I have always felt this way."
This is the error that results in many affairs! Because the affairee begins to blame the spouse, and have negative emotions toward the spouse, then these are painted onto the picture of the past by the memory.
It is an error.
In most cases we are able to review history and find the truth, when we focus or are led via counseling to do so.
I postulate that your wife, besides her memory issues, has also done some rewriting of the past in this way.
Now, you are going to say, "Are you saying that she feels love for OM now, and so it is coloring her past?"
Nope. My response to your wife should be clear - she has delayed exposing the truth of her feelings during the affair because of the reasons I enumerated there.
Her rewriting of marital history may very well involve a poor memory, and then her lies in attempt to justify herself. Internal lies - to herself - easily can contribute to errors.
My guess is that she is now facing her feelings more directly, and only now is able to confess these issues to you.
IMHO, this would indicate progress, not regression.
Furthermore, my advice to your wife is for her to focus only on the truth. Why? Moral reasons of course, but actually by returning only to what her brain knows to be true fact can assist in recovery of other memories - true memories - and therefore can lead to an even better recovery for the marriage.
The brain relies only on what it believes to be true. Other stuff in there might be interesting, but neurologically speaking, the brain always turns to the most reliable information first. Tell her to stick to what she actually knows and remembers, and do NOT speculate. This will help her.
Ok. thanks Schoolbus. I am going to reread this a few times and make sure I've "got it".
So, I really have been pressing this "in love" issue. She has maintained from a month or so in that it wasn't love, and i have been constantly pressuring. I am glad this is progress.
This seems a similar process with what we worked through regarding her abuse as a child and determining what was real and what was not.
OK. I think I am "getting it". It begins with self justification, moves to self deception, objectifying and the pattern becomes habit. Right? The habit them in turns becomes so engrained that it is a part of "who you are". Am I close?
just an update for those who asked questions early on. Sorry for the list, I am a list guy...
We went through some old notebooks and talked and reviewed a lot of stuff (still reviewing) 1. I remembered I put an EP in place for her the day after I found out. Shortly thereafter, she did her own EP for herself and has held herself to it, even though I forgot she did hers.
2. My job is coming to an end June 1. I am looking forward to having a job with a more normal schedule
3. we have gotten SAA and are going through it. Oddly enough, I think we bought it 2.5 years ago, got into the 2nd chapter and I got mad and threw it away (weird huh? What was I thinking?)
4. I think we are at the point where even though I didn't do a total exposure, I did enough, and three years having passed and having seen enough change that I can protect her reputation that she has built back up with me. I don't see the need to do further exposure this far out without hurting the family, my parents and our church.
5. CAG asked if I am filling my wife's needs everyday. Mostly. Some days are better than others as far as that goes. I am trying.
6. we are currently going through our EN's (ouch for both of us). We meet some in great ways, and fall short in other ways
7. We are trying to figure this boundary thing out a little better. I'm hoping when we get to that part of the book, I will have a better understanding. We have identified weaker areas and stronger areas and working to strengthen the weak ones.
Some of these may be answered already, but I wanted to make sure I covered all bases.
I have given some of these principles to my daughter to deal with everyday problems, and they are solid. She has been seeing good results. I am hoping that these foundational principles (many of which I knew instinctively and many that are new) will give my kids a better chance than we had.
I wrote a long post to you yesterday but then lost it. Had meetings to go to so that was it.
Let me start with the memory thing. It is something that I have become passionate about. My mother who is in her very late 80's has had several strokes and some other medical issues. Her memory was failing badly and they diagnosed her with alzheimers (you can actually diagnos alzheimers only on an autospy table by the way). However, during one of her hospital stays a doc that specialized on the elderly saw her.
He asked her if she had general muscle pain, joint pain, etc. Was she weaker than usual. He then suggested that she might have "temporal arteritis (sp?)" and then did a rather simple test looking for large cells in the vessels of the head. Ultimately he diagnosed her with "polymyalgia" which in some way is related to "fiber myalgia" if you look up the symptoms on the web it is hard to tell them apart.
However, he then said something surprised us, my mother and apparently more than a few other docs. He said that temporal arteritis or polymyalgia can lead to symptoms of dementia often misdiagnosed as alzheimers. The cure????
Simple! Steroids address these symptoms so for a year she was on a regimin of predisone and her memory cleared. She is like she used to be? No! the strokes did affect some memories permenantly, but for the most part she is with it, reads the newspapers, gets mad at politicians and can tell you why she is mad. In short, she is back.
Now I tell you this because if your W is showing memory loss, it may well be addressed with application of steroids, her Olypmic career will be in jeapordy but otherwise she should be better.
Now for her "loving" the OM. Yes she did is the short answer. Does that bother you? You said it did. You have already explored the Greek for the use of the word love and you know in English we use all three meanings interchangably with one word.
But let me offer you something for you to consider. It will seem very off the wall to you, but others have found this perspective useful in their recovery.
Would you be happier if she did not "love" the OM? I would not. If she could have an affair with another man and not love him, if it was simply "physical" then there is no chance for recovery in my mind. Why? Women need to have emotional connections for physical connections...most of the time. I would worry about my W if she had an affair with someone she did not "love" at the time. If she can "love" him and have an affair, then that means she can "love" you and rebuild the marriage.
Think about it. It is sort of the difference between the French view on "crimes of passion" and a cold blooded killer. Both commit a crime, but one will have little remorse and will likely do it again. The first, might not.
Your W has had two affairs, right? This brings up the issues of boundaries. what are her moral thoughts on lying, cheating, having affairs, protecting love ones? How does she enforce those thoughts in her life. How do you? Your response in the first year was not unusual, but was it a really boundary enforcing or was it just lashing out in anger?
You must decide this. You said you and your W are having troubles with the boundary concept. Let me tell you a story of my life with regard to boundaries. I was a batchelor until my 30's. I traveled all over the world. I had a very "enjoyable" batchelorhood. When I did get married, I remember standing on at the alter and seeing her folks, and then my folks, and I realized that the promises I was making were actually to myself. They were just witnesses to those promises. It was going to be up to me to keep those vows, not my W, not my folks, family, nor hers.
I traveled a lot in those days, and knew my around a dance floor, bar, nightclub, you name it. When I married a made a plan to protect my vows. From that time one when I traveled without my W, I never went anywhere there was dancing. I did not go into bars. I would have a drink with dinner (alone unless it was with business people from a meeting), and then go to my room and work, watch TV, or read.
I have followed that rule for 35 years now and I have never cheated, not because I am some Saint but because I never was tempted. My plan to protect my boundaries protected me from temptation. If you don't want to eat donuts while on a diet, you don't go into a donut shop. Are you seeing what I am saying? Boundaries are where the "no go zones" are. But, what makes the concept of boundaries important is the plan that must go with recognition of the boundary.
I have one last thought. Have you asked your W for her forgiveness? Have you asked your W what her plan is to protect not only herself but you, the family, and the marriage? Have you let her LEAD this marriage to a place that she would find it a wonderful place to be?
Consider these things. Sometimes the greatest gift is to accept someone elses and I am guessing that your W has gifts for you IF you will allow her to give the to you.
Hang in ther CV. You are doing well. Oh, one last question. What is your W's posting name. I would like to see her thread.
Simple! Steroids address these symptoms so for a year she was on a regimin of predisone and her memory cleared. She is like she used to be? No! the strokes did affect some memories permenantly, but for the most part she is with it, reads the newspapers, gets mad at politicians and can tell you why she is mad. In short, she is back.
Now I tell you this because if your W is showing memory loss, it may well be addressed with application of steroids, her Olypmic career will be in jeapordy but otherwise she should be better.
In all the years (and money) we've spent on doctors, no one has ever mentioned that. That's an awesome suggestion!
Originally Posted by Just Learning
Now for her "loving" the OM. Yes she did is the short answer. Does that bother you? You said it did. You have already explored the Greek for the use of the word love and you know in English we use all three meanings interchangably with one word.
But let me offer you something for you to consider. It will seem very off the wall to you, but others have found this perspective useful in their recovery.
Would you be happier if she did not "love" the OM? I would not. If she could have an affair with another man and not love him, if it was simply "physical" then there is no chance for recovery in my mind. Why? Women need to have emotional connections for physical connections...most of the time. I would worry about my W if she had an affair with someone she did not "love" at the time. If she can "love" him and have an affair, then that means she can "love" you and rebuild the marriage.
Think about it. It is sort of the difference between the French view on "crimes of passion" and a cold blooded killer. Both commit a crime, but one will have little remorse and will likely do it again. The first, might not.
Happier or more accepting? Would I be happier? no. nothing about the A ever makes me happy. Would i be able to accept it better? I may be able to. There is a sense that I can deal with physical crud a lot better than her ever having loved someone else. That is something that i promised myself from the very beginning that I would never remain in a marriage with (this excludes having married a widow at 19, or someone who was in love before meeting me :-) ). In my brain, I process it better. Maybe I am not understanding the analogy that well. The alleged emotional attachment is what hurts more than anything else.
Originally Posted by Just Learning
Your W has had two affairs, right? This brings up the issues of boundaries. what are her moral thoughts on lying, cheating, having affairs, protecting love ones? How does she enforce those thoughts in her life. How do you? Your response in the first year was not unusual, but was it a really boundary enforcing or was it just lashing out in anger?
You must decide this. You said you and your W are having troubles with the boundary concept. Let me tell you a story of my life with regard to boundaries. I was a batchelor until my 30's. I traveled all over the world. I had a very "enjoyable" batchelorhood. When I did get married, I remember standing on at the alter and seeing her folks, and then my folks, and I realized that the promises I was making were actually to myself. They were just witnesses to those promises. It was going to be up to me to keep those vows, not my W, not my folks, family, nor hers.
...But, what makes the concept of boundaries important is the plan that must go with recognition of the boundary.
I have one last thought. Have you asked your W for her forgiveness? Have you asked your W what her plan is to protect not only herself but you, the family, and the marriage? Have you let her LEAD this marriage to a place that she would find it a wonderful place to be?
Consider these things. Sometimes the greatest gift is to accept someone elses and I am guessing that your W has gifts for you IF you will allow her to give the to you.
Yes, two A's. One she said she moved the guy, the other one in 2001, no. The boundaries issue is the big one. We both see it. This is extremely helpful in us being able to define boundaries a bit better. We just finished going through the LB questionnaires. We did them over a week ago and sat down and did them today. Odd... My answers have changed... I think I will need to do the EN's again and the LB with BG.
Honestly, I think that I was doing both... Enforcing boundaries and being more than a bit angry as well. But I was not vindictive with the boundaries. I remember clearly wanting to protect the kids and myself from danger. I don't run very fast from conflicts, in fact my tendency has been traditionally, to meet them head first and not back away from them.
I have asked for forgiveness for many many things... Do you mean for the boundaries, or for being angry? I am not sure and will ask. We may need to talk through that. I was angry for a good long time. I am sure I need to.
I'm still processing the "accepting the gift and allowing her to protect"... That's always been me and I've always gladly wanted to do it, even though I have failed in protecting her in many ways. That is a new concept for me.
Thanks for the encouragement! It is nice to see some progress at a faster pace than we had been moving.
Don't have a lot of time and then will be essentially gone the rest of the weekend. You said
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There is a sense that I can deal with physical crud a lot better than her ever having loved someone else. That is something that i promised myself from the very beginning that I would never remain in a marriage
Very normal and very realistic thinking on your part. But, here is the question. Who does she love now? What does the data tell you? If she still loved the OM, then I would be telling you to walk or at least suggesting that you consider this.
However, my point is that she did had to tell herself that she was "in love" in order for her to have the affair, that is "normal". If you read a few thousand posts, nevermind the tens of thousands I have read here in more than a decade you will read/hear the ever popular "I love you but I am not in love with you" speech at least 90% of the time. That is normal and the folks who have uttered the immortal words often can recover their marriage. If she was not feeling "in love" with the OM and had the affair, then one would be/should be concerned about the possibility that you could do anything to rebuild the marriage.
So I am not saying you should feel good about this, I am saying she is a "normal" WS and as such is a likely candidate for the MB approach to work. But, you have to determine if she loves you now or not.
With regard to the boundaries issue, I think what you need to see is that you cannot enforce HER boundaries, she has to do this, she has to make the plans, she has to find her own boundaries. You are responsible for yours. It is something you can discuss with her, but she MUST determine her boundaries and enforce them. She must take Extraordinary Precautions. You cannot do this for her.
You also asked
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I have asked for forgiveness for many many things... Do you mean for the boundaries, or for being angry? I am not sure and will ask. We may need to talk through that. I was angry for a good long time. I am sure I need to.
I'm still processing the "accepting the gift and allowing her to protect"... That's always been me and I've always gladly wanted to do it, even though I have failed in protecting her in many ways. That is a new concept for me.
You don't need forgiveness for your anger, it is normal. But, you also handled things in a very harsh manner, right?
What is your goal? We discussed earlier, the concept of her being by your side, your partner, not someone beholding to you or you her. Who sets the standard for behavior in this family? Right now it must be you. You were not perfect we all know that, but you perhaps could have handled things better, seek forgiveness for your failings, just as you would want her to seek forgiveness from you.
If you go look at plan A on this website, the first thing Harley recommends for the betrayed spouse is that the BS start to meet the WS's needs if the WS will allow it. That the BS stop any love busters that might have been or is driving the WS away. This is for many very counter intuitive, but it is a way to break the logjam. It is a way to show that the BS will change, try to do better, etc. In many ways it is a Christian way, "turn the other cheek".
Most folks would say "kick them to the curb", and yet Harley has found that the opposite approach works better. If you want your W as your equal in this marriage she needs to see that you will seek and need her forgiveness for your failings just as you want her to do the same. Harley counsels that the BS take a proactive role in recovery not wait for the WS to get out of their fog.
It has now been three years, you still struggle. You will never forget what has happened but you and your W can learn and grow from it. It takes a humble, strong, focused, committed person to recover from an affair. Here I am describing both the BS and the WS. If you don't find comfort and love in this marriage it will die. If she doesn't find comfort and love in this marriage it will die. Recovery depends on both of you.
Remember she was abused sexually, that is no excuse but it clearly has modified her filter on life. She needs a new perspective, so that she can learn to trust and start to be an honest person. You can provide some insight into what type of perspective is needed. I have not posted to your W but I suspect I will next week.
As for the memory issue do some home work not just on the web but with medical professionals, especially some neurologists.
Start with temporal arteritis and look at the symptoms, the polymyalgia, and then fibermyalgia. You will be surprised. But, what I have told you apparently is NOT common knowledge in the medical community either, but it is acknowledged with in the community. I know it worked exactly as the physician said it would in the case of my mother.
This is why have been come somewhat vocal about this. It is not always the case but I am guessing it is more common that folks think. Check it out.
Don't have a lot of time and then will be essentially gone the rest of the weekend. You said
Quote
There is a sense that I can deal with physical crud a lot better than her ever having loved someone else. That is something that i promised myself from the very beginning that I would never remain in a marriage
Very normal and very realistic thinking on your part. But, here is the question. Who does she love now? What does the data tell you? If she still loved the OM, then I would be telling you to walk or at least suggesting that you consider this.
The data tells me that she loves me now... The data for then is confusing, because I don't have complete data and probably never will. I believe from what I've read from her to him, her to me, and talked with her about that truthfully, she probably just loved herself, and maybe me a little. If I thought she still loved the OM, she would've walked a while ago. Thankfully, that isn't the case. She dropped him the night we found out with NC instituted the next day and faithfully followed through by her.
Originally Posted by Just Learning
However, my point is that she did had to tell herself that she was "in love" in order for her to have the affair, that is "normal". If you read a few thousand posts, nevermind the tens of thousands I have read here in more than a decade you will read/hear the ever popular "I love you but I am not in love with you" speech at least 90% of the time. That is normal and the folks who have uttered the immortal words often can recover their marriage. If she was not feeling "in love" with the OM and had the affair, then one would be/should be concerned about the possibility that you could do anything to rebuild the marriage.
So I am not saying you should feel good about this, I am saying she is a "normal" WS and as such is a likely candidate for the MB approach to work. But, you have to determine if she loves you now or not.
Yes, I have been reading the site like crazy and have run in to the "love but not in love" line. Is there a book passed around to waywards? It's kind of scary how similar so many stories are, and encouraging too. One interesting thing in regards to "reasons" for the A's...
With the first one, she never said there was a possibility of being in love, never said it to him, never asked for it from him. She was trying to "fix herself". Her counselor had convinced her doing that would work, and the relentless pursuit of the OM over several months added to it. Not an excuse... It was her fault. But factors do contribute. The Other guy was different. She had been carrying the lie for years and felt she was worthless and that I was too good for her (I think I've proved her wrong by now), and that she was a POS so it didn't matter. At least that was her reasoning entering into it.
Originally Posted by Just Learning
With regard to the boundaries issue, I think what you need to see is that you cannot enforce HER boundaries, she has to do this, she has to make the plans, she has to find her own boundaries. You are responsible for yours. It is something you can discuss with her, but she MUST determine her boundaries and enforce them. She must take Extraordinary Precautions. You cannot do this for her.
yes, this is hard for me, but I'm trying. She is working on them, and when she is done, she will rpesent them and we will discuss them together.
Originally Posted by Just Learning
You also asked
Quote
I have asked for forgiveness for many many things... Do you mean for the boundaries, or for being angry? I am not sure and will ask. We may need to talk through that. I was angry for a good long time. I am sure I need to.
I'm still processing the "accepting the gift and allowing her to protect"... That's always been me and I've always gladly wanted to do it, even though I have failed in protecting her in many ways. That is a new concept for me.
You don't need forgiveness for your anger, it is normal. But, you also handled things in a very harsh manner, right?
Yes. it has been hard for me to separate what i might consider a righteous anger and a selfish anger at times. it is something that i have purposed to work on the last year or so. In fact, we just finished the LB forms and she noted I have improved greatly(but still need work)
Originally Posted by Just Learning
What is your goal? We discussed earlier, the concept of her being by your side, your partner, not someone beholding to you or you her. Who sets the standard for behavior in this family? Right now it must be you. You were not perfect we all know that, but you perhaps could have handled things better, seek forgiveness for your failings, just as you would want her to seek forgiveness from you.
If you go look at plan A on this website, the first thing Harley recommends for the betrayed spouse is that the BS start to meet the WS's needs if the WS will allow it. That the BS stop any love busters that might have been or is driving the WS away. This is for many very counter intuitive, but it is a way to break the logjam. It is a way to show that the BS will change, try to do better, etc. In many ways it is a Christian way, "turn the other cheek".
Most folks would say "kick them to the curb", and yet Harley has found that the opposite approach works better. If you want your W as your equal in this marriage she needs to see that you will seek and need her forgiveness for your failings just as you want her to do the same. Harley counsels that the BS take a proactive role in recovery not wait for the WS to get out of their fog.
She has been allowing me since June 18, 2008. I have started letting her meet mine in the last few weeks. It *is* counterintuitive, but i am seeing it works VERY well. It is requiring me to force myself to trust her.
Originally Posted by Just Learning
It has now been three years, you still struggle. You will never forget what has happened but you and your W can learn and grow from it. It takes a humble, strong, focused, committed person to recover from an affair. Here I am describing both the BS and the WS. If you don't find comfort and love in this marriage it will die. If she doesn't find comfort and love in this marriage it will die. Recovery depends on both of you.
I see that. I have put the responsibility on her for the last year or so. I think I carried the first year, maybe year and a half and started to dwindle.
Originally Posted by Just Learning
Remember she was abused sexually, that is no excuse but it clearly has modified her filter on life. She needs a new perspective, so that she can learn to trust and start to be an honest person. You can provide some insight into what type of perspective is needed. I have not posted to your W but I suspect I will next week.
Let me know what info you need. Her perspective has changed greatly. There is still work (hence why we are here), but I still see her as someone of great value, worth holding onto. I have never stopped loving her, even when i tried.
Originally Posted by Just Learning
As for the memory issue do some home work not just on the web but with medical professionals, especially some neurologists.
Start with temporal arteritis and look at the symptoms, the polymyalgia, and then fibermyalgia. You will be surprised. But, what I have told you apparently is NOT common knowledge in the medical community either, but it is acknowledged with in the community. I know it worked exactly as the physician said it would in the case of my mother.
This is why have been come somewhat vocal about this. It is not always the case but I am guessing it is more common that folks think. Check it out.
JL
Thanks JL. I am looking for new work in June, my contract is up at our church and I will need work. I am hoping that it will be something that will provide us with insurance. We haven't had it in a few years.
I will post to her in the near future, but my advice to you is to show her that you love and value her. She knows you have been and are hurt, but what she does not know is how much you love her. I would guess it is hard for her to understand that given her background.
Yes, that has been a common problem since we were dating. I would say "I love you", or "you're the most beautiful woman I've ever seen", and the response back was always thank you, but she said she's never really believed me until 3 years ago. She said she felt like I was either blind, or just being nice.
What I did was sit down with her when we went out last weekend and told her how she still has me captured after all these years. That she really does have power over me because I love her so much. I told her how hard it is to show this because I've been afraid. She didn't know that. I am thinking that we are at the "Time" stage?
Where we simply need to invest the time in assuring and reassuring each other of this?
One thing I find I do is "harumph" when she says she loves me... It's almost an automatic response. Sometimes i catch it, sometimes i don't. Disconnect between my head and heart maybe?
As for goals which someone asked me about, I think they are simple. I want to spend my life with her in mutual love and respect. I want to grow old next to her. I want us to be the best parents/grandparents/ggrandparents we can be... together.
I want someone who respects me and thinks the same of me as I do of them.
One thing I find I do is "harumph" when she says she loves me... It's almost an automatic response. Sometimes i catch it, sometimes i don't. Disconnect between my head and heart maybe?
CV, my H does the same thing. Or did, when he was home. I haven't actually said the words to him in a while. He would throw back comments like "Hard to believe when you said those things to the OM" or I could see it in his face - rolling his eyes, shaking his head, making that "hmph!" sound that you mentioned.
I'm not a BS, so I can't advise you on how to stop it, other than time and allowing her to meet your needs. I know enough to know that my words as a FWW are worthless and that I need to show my H that I love him through my actions. Just give BG a chance to show you.
The things you said to her were beautiful. Are her top EN's admiration and affection? They are at the top of my list. I needed - need - to hear things like this from my H. I did not have the traumatic past that BG had, but I've had my share of issues. When I didn't hear those things from my H, I slowly stopped believing that he loved me. When we were first dating, H always called me "beautiful." It was always, "Hey, Beautiful," every time he saw me. He stopped saying it. And it may be stupid, it may be shallow, but I stopped believing that he thought I was beautiful. Add to that some of his actions (pushing me away if I got to close, refusing to hold my hand, rejecting my advances for SF), it reinforced that line of thinking. And that was pre-A. It doesn't justify anything that I did, but it is an example of how he failed to meet my EN's (and I failed to meet his as well, pre-A, as we were both responsible for the condition of our M).
You may not have stopped telling her those things, but somewhere along the way something happened to cause her to stop believing. And I know it is hard for you to believe her words, but for me during our failed recovery I struggled with my expectations as you well know. When my gestures towards H were met with that "hmph!" or similarly dismissed it reinforced my sense of worthlessness in his eyes.
Also, I highly recommend "Love and Respect" by Emerson Eggerichs, if you haven't read that already. We went through this series at our church and it really opened my eyes. I wish more than anything we'd found it pre-A and had used it to get off the "crazy cycle" H and I were on for years. Ah well. Hindsight is 20/20.
I don't know if that is helpful, but as what you said jumped out at me I just wanted to add my $.02...
One thing I find I do is "harumph" when she says she loves me... It's almost an automatic response. Sometimes i catch it, sometimes i don't. Disconnect between my head and heart maybe?
Yup. "I love you"
"Hmph"
"I'm Sorry"
"Bleh"
"I'm not going anywhere"
"Mmmhmmm...."
It's a connection, not a disconnection. You are hurt and angry.
Disconnect is the answer, not the cause. Quit letting your emotions shape your reactions. Let your head do it. Let your actions reflect your goals.
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
I want someone who respects me and thinks the same of me as I do of them.
CV, my H does the same thing. Or did, when he was home. I haven't actually said the words to him in a while. He would throw back comments like "Hard to believe when you said those things to the OM" or I could see it in his face - rolling his eyes, shaking his head, making that "hmph!" sound that you mentioned.
I'm not a BS, so I can't advise you on how to stop it, other than time and allowing her to meet your needs. I know enough to know that my words as a FWW are worthless and that I need to show my H that I love him through my actions. Just give BG a chance to show you.
The things you said to her were beautiful. Are her top EN's admiration and affection? They are at the top of my list. I needed - need - to hear things like this from my H. I did not have the traumatic past that BG had, but I've had my share of issues. When I didn't hear those things from my H, I slowly stopped believing that he loved me. When we were first dating, H always called me "beautiful." It was always, "Hey, Beautiful," every time he saw me. He stopped saying it. And it may be stupid, it may be shallow, but I stopped believing that he thought I was beautiful. Add to that some of his actions (pushing me away if I got to close, refusing to hold my hand, rejecting my advances for SF), it reinforced that line of thinking. And that was pre-A. It doesn't justify anything that I did, but it is an example of how he failed to meet my EN's (and I failed to meet his as well, pre-A, as we were both responsible for the condition of our M).
Yes, they are at the top. I believe, with her, this was a problem she struggled with before I came along. kind of a "wanting to believe it but not quite believing it" thing. Knowing how it makes her feel helps me catch myself. It has become a bad habit of mine.
Originally Posted by wulffpack_girl
You may not have stopped telling her those things, but somewhere along the way something happened to cause her to stop believing. And I know it is hard for you to believe her words, but for me during our failed recovery I struggled with my expectations as you well know. When my gestures towards H were met with that "hmph!" or similarly dismissed it reinforced my sense of worthlessness in his eyes.
Also, I highly recommend "Love and Respect" by Emerson Eggerichs, if you haven't read that already. We went through this series at our church and it really opened my eyes. I wish more than anything we'd found it pre-A and had used it to get off the "crazy cycle" H and I were on for years. Ah well. Hindsight is 20/20.
I don't know if that is helpful, but as what you said jumped out at me I just wanted to add my $.02...
Yeah. I see that I am killing her expectations for R. I am beginning to see it as a big LB. I am working on just saying thanks if i cannot respond any other way, and then getting myself together to tell her.
one of the things she told me after DDay was that when I used to tell her those things and she either just smiled or said thanks and I would ask her why she never said it back was "I can't say something I don't feel". She said that she told me this not because she believed it, but because she was ashamed, and angry at herself. I believe her, but it's hard you know? Having heard those words...
Once the OM was pressuring her so bad in Oct of 07 for her to tell me that she didn't love me that she finally gave in. 1.30am on Oct 14th, I asked her... do you love me? She said no... I understand the pressure and that it was a lie, but i strive to always say what i mean. I try to be precise with words. ah... I'm ranting.... not good for me. I'll stop.
Yeah. I see that I am killing her expectations for R. I am beginning to see it as a big LB. I am working on just saying thanks if i cannot respond any other way, and then getting myself together to tell her.
Well, yes, you might be killing her expectations, but she shouldn't HAVE expectations. That was the one thing that I wouldn't stop doing, was expecting certain things or certain behaviors from my H that I had no right to expect. My expectations let me down through my entire pre-A M as well, and I think that goes with the renter mindset. If I do this, he'll do this. Etc, etc.
But I do think "thank you" is a better response than "Hmph!" Maybe it's a case of "fake it till you make it" when you're in those low points - HHH is right about letting your actions take the lead instead of your emotions.
Did you ever do the Love Dare? One of the things that stuck out to me from the LD was the concept of following vs. leading your heart. The pop culture philosophy tells us to "follow our hearts" (you hear it over and over on Oprah, that whole Eat Pray Love junk - which, as a t/j, I DVR'ed so I could see what the hoo-ha was about but have not really been interested in watching it).. ANYWAY (rambling) our hearts represent our emotions, right? Our emotions will lead us astray. Rather than following your heart, you have to LEAD it. Take charge of it. Direct your heart to where you want to go, to what is good and righteous. I cringe now when I hear someone say "follow your heart." I mean, isn't that part of the WS script, "following your heart"? My aunt, who is in an affairage, gave me the exact same line when she tried to "give me advice." It's sad, really, b/c she's a person who will never, in a million years, "get it." She'll never understand that following your heart is lousy advice, it's the kind of advice that destroys lives and families.
Anyway, long-winded explanation to say the same thing HHH said:
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Quit letting your emotions shape your reactions. Let your head do it. Let your actions reflect your goals.
And let her love reach you. Let her fill your LB$.
Thanks, I am rereading the article. I think my problem may be that not only am I not forgetting, I am not forgiving either. She has followed everything as it was laid out. I was for the first year and a half, kinda nuts. our family is still together, she has complied with everything. I believe she is repentant. She has taken all the precautions asked of her, and when I give her leeway, she does not take it for fear of breaking my trust of her.
So where does that leave us? I dont want to spend the next 20 years of my marriage with the same strictures she has had for the last 3 years. I am not sure that is healthy for either of us.
Started reading this whole thread, but I stopped right here because I recognised something I used to do also, and I was letting myself be abused.
When my abused as a child, saved and very studiuos in a bible colledge as a young woman, alcoholic WW "Came back to the Church" and wanted me to come back after two years of seperation from her drinking. It was in my head that there needed to be accountability focused on her behavior, but instaed I went to the heady, "God will take care of everything" place.
Then whenever behavior became an issue, up came the claim that "God forgave me, so you need to also". Talk about using grace as a lisense to sin, she used it as a lisense to evade. In this area I was constantly blaming myself, for not, "Forgiving and forgetting"
I immersed myself comepletely with her church, as she swore that was the reason she swayed. I was thankful to God to have another chance, and put it all behind us, convinced that if anything happened again, I would just go. But I drank the kool-aid, and though I agree that now is the time and the past is an excuse, I continued to let the threat of her falling into bad behavior be upon my shoulders. I grew in the church, but the marriage stayed on standby, until the areas she needed to get controlled with, and convienently blamed on everybody else, came back and took her home two years ago. I did not keep my clarity of though all those 10 years either, because by then I was completly buffaloed by myself. Tring to be a spiritual giant and bear it all can do that to you.
Gonna read some more, but for now thats all I have to say about it being your fault, or the past for that matter. Didn't Jesus die for us to have life more abundantly? Don't be fooled into believing you were a poor spiritual leader and its your fault she strayed. Thats all for now. Catch up later.
..It's hard, because you (and about every other betrayed whose ever been here) have been weaned on 'happily ever after.' We got married, promised to be faithful, threw the rice and then figured our work there was done. What we didn't realize was that our work had just begun.
..I do want to be clear... My wife never blamed it on the abuse. This is a route I decided to look into. It was my effort to find the underlying problems brought into the marriage, the baggage and such that help set the environment in addition to regular marital problems and the bigger ones that can be near disastrous that are simply circumstances of life...
Ok I see. so you were trying to make reasonable excuses for her then? I understand it, but it doesn't work as you have learned. That is something you should have brought up with her right? So she could tell you off as she explained how sorry she was for debasing your marriage and hurting you. Is that where some of the guilt you feel for not forgiving comes from I wonder?
I am not chiding you for having fears and doubts and many people here can tell you how it takes years to recover from affairs inside. What I am talking about is that you did not take your fears to her, instaed you tried to understand them by yourself and anaylize them without her involved in the healing process. Maybe she needs to understand that you still have trust issues with her and how to help you with them, instead of trying to figure this all out by yourself. Your theroum and understanding of why things happened will not replace the careing and loving attention of your spouse. These things will have to be dealt with together, the objectivity can bring you so far away from the personal care you need for each other.
Ok Melody Is giving you GREAT advice. After 2 A's do I still want to be married to her..
ITA with Mel, as I have never seen her steer someone wrong.
As far as the question goes, Yes you do, or you wouldn't be here. Everything here had it been done to a tee, when my marrige first recovered would have avoided much pain for myself, my late wife, and my children.
Take full advantage of this place and DR H. You will never regret it.
[quote=celticvoyager] Started reading this whole thread, but I stopped right here because I recognised something I used to do also, and I was letting myself be abused.
When my abused as a child, saved and very studiuos in a bible colledge as a young woman, alcoholic WW "Came back to the Church" and wanted me to come back after two years of seperation from her drinking. It was in my head that there needed to be accountability focused on her behavior, but instaed I went to the heady, "God will take care of everything" place.
Then whenever behavior became an issue, up came the claim that "God forgave me, so you need to also". Talk about using grace as a lisense to sin, she used it as a lisense to evade. In this area I was constantly blaming myself, for not, "Forgiving and forgetting"
I immersed myself comepletely with her church, as she swore that was the reason she swayed. I was thankful to God to have another chance, and put it all behind us, convinced that if anything happened again, I would just go. But I drank the kool-aid, and though I agree that now is the time and the past is an excuse, I continued to let the threat of her falling into bad behavior be upon my shoulders. I grew in the church, but the marriage stayed on standby, until the areas she needed to get controlled with, and convienently blamed on everybody else, came back and took her home two years ago. I did not keep my clarity of though all those 10 years either, because by then I was completly buffaloed by myself. Tring to be a spiritual giant and bear it all can do that to you.
Gonna read some more, but for now thats all I have to say about it being your fault, or the past for that matter. Didn't Jesus die for us to have life more abundantly? Don't be fooled into believing you were a poor spiritual leader and its your fault she strayed. Thats all for now. Catch up later.
He did, yes. Thanks for the kind words. Do you think I am being abused? If so, how? I am not seeing it. She hasn't ever told me that i needed to forgive her (though i believe I do). Maybe i am missing something.
..I do want to be clear... My wife never blamed it on the abuse. This is a route I decided to look into. It was my effort to find the underlying problems brought into the marriage, the baggage and such that help set the environment in addition to regular marital problems and the bigger ones that can be near disastrous that are simply circumstances of life...
Ok I see. so you were trying to make reasonable excuses for her then? I understand it, but it doesn't work as you have learned. That is something you should have brought up with her right? So she could tell you off as she explained how sorry she was for debasing your marriage and hurting you. Is that where some of the guilt you feel for not forgiving comes from I wonder?
I am not chiding you for having fears and doubts and many people here can tell you how it takes years to recover from affairs inside. What I am talking about is that you did not take your fears to her, instaed you tried to understand them by yourself and anaylize them without her involved in the healing process. Maybe she needs to understand that you still have trust issues with her and how to help you with them, instead of trying to figure this all out by yourself. Your theroum and understanding of why things happened will not replace the careing and loving attention of your spouse. These things will have to be dealt with together, the objectivity can bring you so far away from the personal care you need for each other.
Does this sound familiar?
CP, that's partially right. I have never made excuses for her. What i was looking for were contributing factors. While I looked into it I *did* include her in it, we talked probably dozens of hours, read countless books... But you are right that I feel sometimes that I am trying to figure it out myself. How she helps me with them is a question for me. What does that practically look like? So I guess, the answer is yes and no?
CP, that's partially right. I have never made excuses for her. What i was looking for were contributing factors. While I looked into it I *did* include her in it, we talked probably dozens of hours, read countless books... But you are right that I feel sometimes that I am trying to figure it out myself. How she helps me with them is a question for me. What does that practically look like? So I guess, the answer is yes and no?
Cv
Ok, so maybe what you need to do is get after yourself then? If she is doing everything possible, and is totally complient, then maybe you have to tell yourself that it is foolish to not get over it. Mel made that point earlier, and she sees more than I do.
I remember a time when I had to identify my fears, and put them behind for what I understood was my wives sake. Granted I had good reason to be afraid, and was not thourough in the recovery and restoration process, but if I was going to set my wife free from the past, it also had to be gone from my mind and thoughts. It was possible because I had seen some great improvements, and as you guys use the tools on this site, and time passes, you will also be able to push fear away. Wish I had this site a long time ago, and the support, but thats water under the bridge.
I accually used to get mad at myself and tell myself off when negativity and doubt creeped in, using what was right in front of me as evidence that it was all in my head. Thankfully you have this place and the MB concepts to be real solid tools. All I had was hope and no counsel except for myself and the large blanket of restoration promise from God.
It can be very confusing without precise and accurate counsel, and his Angels work through this place as you can see.
Time to set it back to zero, and enjoy learning about yourself and your needs, through this awesome place. I will be like living each day new, like it is supposed to be, once you identify your needs and stop wondering why you have them. I know that sounds spacey right now, but in a few months of exploring this stuff, it will make more sense than anything.
..But you are right that I feel sometimes that I am trying to figure it out myself. How she helps me with them is a question for me. What does that practically look like? So I guess, the answer is yes and no?
Cv
It will help if you do not use her as a case study, or talk with her like.."See when you did that.. and this happened.." Like Mel said, that will be a trigger and destructive for you both.
This where you must trust in her actions, and what you have both learned from the concepts, and really ask the questions that are bothering you, directly expecting an answer. If you think about it and decide it was trick of the mind, an old song or place that brought out old fears, you can take it to God and/or laugh it off. Being totally tranparent between each other and honest will help greatly in nipping it in the bud when worry starts to happen.
Example: "I don't want you to be alone with so-n-so,(member of the opposite sex)", and stop right there before you give reasons. You don't have to be "Big enough" or "secure enough" to allow that. A jealous mate is a good thing, it not an insult to your character, and it damn sure isn't the time to be controlling or bring up the past from any aspect. You should be jealous of the time each other spends with the opposite sex, or anytime that robs you of each other. Time spent away from each other separates the life you live together. Its you as a team that is the strongest right?
But being the passive agressive one and skirting around the issue would be. "Well remember how you get when you.." or maybe even, "Well you remember how when before?..". Just no and thats it will help you both learn how to to respect and trust each other. I remember just no when I used to use it and my W was much more secure with boundaries I would not waver from. If anytime I was her rock, it was then. Your wife can be yours too, buy being clear and setting her own boundaries and asking you to honor them. "My H does not work on such and such days, because that is our date night", and she protects your home and hearth by protecting what I hope you have agreed to with POJA and enthusiastic agreement. "Damn right" you say.
The first thing we try to do is anylyze "why" when we are floored by something we don't understand. Affairs, being the most painful, can bring in all sorts of intellectualizing. (Is that really a word?). Its because its such a gut punch, and so scary to us, that we are so afraid to admit we were not lovable at the moment, or that we let the others needs go so far unattended to, that we come up with all kinds of reasons why they were messed up and had no boundaries. Granted their needs might be weird and out of balance, but addressing them up front ussually takes the mystery out of them and brings them down to earth. That part takes time sometimes, when we make our needs so unable for anyone to meet.
Thats where God steps in, because we are only human, and he brings us out of the clouds. Funny isn't it? Hes up there but we belong down here and he puts us back here when we step over our boundaries with him too.
It will help if you do not use her as a case study, or talk with her like.."See when you did that.. and this happened.." Like Mel said, that will be a trigger and destructive for you both.
Yeah, I have seen that I've "case-studied" her. We have been taking different approaches to our conversations. Much more productive. Today was good. We had a good 6 hours in the car and were able to communicate about a lot of things that traditionally triggered me.
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
This where you must trust in her actions, and what you have both learned from the concepts, and really ask the questions that are bothering you, directly expecting an answer. If you think about it and decide it was trick of the mind, an old song or place that brought out old fears, you can take it to God and/or laugh it off. Being totally tranparent between each other and honest will help greatly in nipping it in the bud when worry starts to happen.
Example: "I don't want you to be alone with so-n-so,(member of the opposite sex)", and stop right there before you give reasons. You don't have to be "Big enough" or "secure enough" to allow that. A jealous mate is a good thing, it not an insult to your character, and it damn sure isn't the time to be controlling or bring up the past from any aspect. You should be jealous of the time each other spends with the opposite sex, or anytime that robs you of each other. Time spent away from each other separates the life you live together. Its you as a team that is the strongest right?
I don't have many "trigger places" anymore. We have worked hard on this from probably the first few weeks after DDay. Songs still bug me sometimes. I am going to try your suggestions on responding and see how it helps.
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
But being the passive agressive one and skirting around the issue would be. "Well remember how you get when you.." or maybe even, "Well you remember how when before?..". Just no and thats it will help you both learn how to to respect and trust each other. I remember just no when I used to use it and my W was much more secure with boundaries I would not waver from. If anytime I was her rock, it was then. Your wife can be yours too, buy being clear and setting her own boundaries and asking you to honor them. "My H does not work on such and such days, because that is our date night", and she protects your home and hearth by protecting what I hope you have agreed to with POJA and enthusiastic agreement. "Damn right" you say.
The first thing we try to do is anylyze "why" when we are floored by something we don't understand. Affairs, being the most painful, can bring in all sorts of intellectualizing. (Is that really a word?). Its because its such a gut punch, and so scary to us, that we are so afraid to admit we were not lovable at the moment, or that we let the others needs go so far unattended to, that we come up with all kinds of reasons why they were messed up and had no boundaries. Granted their needs might be weird and out of balance, but addressing them up front ussually takes the mystery out of them and brings them down to earth. That part takes time sometimes, when we make our needs so unable for anyone to meet.
Thats where God steps in, because we are only human, and he brings us out of the clouds. Funny isn't it? Hes up there but we belong down here and he puts us back here when we step over our boundaries with him too.
I like the idea of taking the mystery out... Ok, a lot to think about. Thank you! I think this can be accomplished easily, and what i need to do is make her feel secure with boundaries and maybe even feel like she belongs here.
For those of you reading both my thread and my W. I am hoping she will be able to post tonight, she had a lot of eye tests done yesterday, and her eyes are really bad today from the tests. Just an FYI for those reading and posting on her thread.
For those that pray... Her eye surgery is July 20th. Corneal transplant...
OK, this is funny and not at the same time... My wife just finished SAA... This is the book she purchased for us almost 3 years ago after DDAy. Apparently we read the book it ticked me off and I trashed it. Ah well... nearly three years later, we have survived and implemented most of what it said by instinct and the hard way... Now we are using the book to refine....
If I was a tight wad I would have kept it and saved myself some money... ugh
Based on the impression FWW and I got from SAA, which we read together after using the articles here and the forums, you may have gotten a BS to blame sense out of it.
Strange enough, that ticked off FWW more than I.
Alas, I gave our copy away fruitlessly hoping to pay it forward.
Yeah. I think part of it is my reading style preference. I prefer books that are more "do this" that "let me use this story as an example". I have had to adjust to taste preferences in reading.
Based on the impression FWW and I got from SAA, which we read together after using the articles here and the forums, you may have gotten a BS to blame sense out of it.
Strange enough, that ticked off FWW more than I.
Alas, I gave our copy away fruitlessly hoping to pay it forward.
smallT/J Just wondering HHH, Based on the "BS to blame" aspect you had gotten from SAA, do you feel that your W was beating herself up when she got mad about it? I mean in that protective of her H sort of way, a little overeaction, like a little shockwave that woke her up.
That is an awesome thing to see in your W, a little bit assuming I guess in that they try to mother you, but a completly understandable place they come from emotionally. My reaction was to smile and hug her, and leave the door open to discuss anything, and comfort if I could. I didn't want her to bear all the burden, maybe she had some strange ideas based on some misunderstood emotions and needs that were not fufilled. But it was time to move forward and understand them and I was there to help.
I wish we had made the time to do more when we had a chance, or maybe had different resources that worked better in UA time.
Just what you said reminded me of being loved and having someone covering my back. end T/J
Based on the impression FWW and I got from SAA, which we read together after using the articles here and the forums, you may have gotten a BS to blame sense out of it.
Strange enough, that ticked off FWW more than I.
Alas, I gave our copy away fruitlessly hoping to pay it forward.
smallT/J Just wondering HHH, Based on the "BS to blame" aspect you had gotten from SAA, do you feel that your W was beating herself up when she got mad about it? I mean in that protective of her H sort of way, a little overeaction, like a little shockwave that woke her up.
That is an awesome thing to see in your W, a little bit assuming I guess in that they try to mother you, but a completly understandable place they come from emotionally. My reaction was to smile and hug her, and leave the door open to discuss anything, and comfort if I could. I didn't want her to bear all the burden, maybe she had some strange ideas based on some misunderstood emotions and needs that were not fufilled. But it was time to move forward and understand them and I was there to help.
I wish we had made the time to do more when we had a chance, or maybe had different resources that worked better in UA time.
Just what you said reminded me of being loved and having someone covering my back. end T/J
By the time we started reading SAA? Yes. I think part of it was becoming protective, I think part of it was owning up for herself. She was the one who brought it up first, actually. Struck me as funny.
I don't know. Your W is still posting here. It seems most are accustomed to finding your posts here. I guess I would not move it just yet. Your call though.
I just wanted to give an update on my thread since I've been posting all over the place... We aren't MB vets, but I (think) that I am able to assimilate information at a fairly fast pace. Probably from being in school for so darned long.
We are doing very well in our recovery... In fact, Grace asked me the other day: "Are we really doing this well?"
Well, yes we are. We are johnny-come-lately's to MB, but we are applying the principles (much of then we learned the hard way)and we are thriving. Still get down sometimes, but I am able to anticipate and tell her. It helps us deal with it together.
On a funnier note, we have three teenagers... Well, one 20 year old and two teenagers.. we made all three of them take the ENQ's with their BF or GFs. WOW... What a conversation starter those were. Well, youngest just had a nasty breakup, but he did his anyway.
Our middle child graduated on friday... We are happy as punch. She begins school in the fall.
If anyone thinks of it, pray for me. My paid ministry contract ended. Same amount of work, no money. So i am job hunting, but we aren't worried. We are going to hang out here on SAA for a while. We are well into recovery I think, but we consider ourselves survivors and we like being here on this forum.
I am proud to know you are here, and I hope you come here often. Sounds like a real success story and I love the part about the ENGs with the young ones. What a awesome investment.
our kids are our greatest achievement. It was always a joint venture between us, no matter how bad things got. They may hate us after we make them do the LB questionnaire though!
CV, it's a pleasure to hang with you and the missus! I think you're both a great addition to the group! Prayers going up on the job! (Even though you know that God's got that all figured out already )
My two DD's (34 and 27) have been "schooled" in MB concepts. Both are in great relationships, and although neither of them realize that they use the MB concepts, they both use the ideas all the time in their marriages! They talk all the time of emotional needs, openness and honesty, joint agreement, etc. They have great relationships, and work at the emotional needs aspects. They even have "invented" a few ENs of their own:
scholastic support (one is working on a Ph.D.) artistic endeavors support (one is an artist and musician, and actually the Ph.D. student is married to an artist!)
They are funny, but they work for their relationships. DD27 told me recently that the best thing I ever taught her was the idea that when things were not going well in a relationship, you had to focus on that thing, and TALK about it instead of getting mad and yelling about it.
She was really cute telling us about how her previous relationship was, and this marriage is. She said that the old boyfriend refused to use the ideas, and that relationship just never would gel. She said that she wanted to talk about a problem that they were having, and he said, "Oh, so you want to fight?" and she said, "No, it would be very good if we could just talk and explore what the issues were, so we could make good decisions about how to meet each other's needs and improve the relationship." He said to her, "So that means you want to fight, so let's fight!"
She said she told him, "Okay, I suppose we could stay up all night, you could yell and I could cry, but in reality, wouldn't it be better if we just each said what we thought might work better, and then use the good ideas and fix the problem?"
She said he chose to yell instead. She left him.
In the new marriage, she gave a really good example of talking out an issue using MB concepts and her H's emotional needs regarding domestic support and family time during cooking of meals. They worked out a plan as to how they will fix meals together, and now have a terrific time together, increasing their UA time.......
She said she knew this man was a keeper!
It pays to talk about how to do the right things in relationships, so your kids understand what you are doing and why you are doing things. Whether you believe it or not, they are watching every single thing you do, and learning from it. They swear they won't grow up to be like us,
but they do. And they do it better, if we teach them better!
BTW, about your job, God will open the door when He is ready. But you knew that.
It pays to talk about how to do the right things in relationships, so your kids understand what you are doing and why you are doing things. Whether you believe it or not, they are watching every single thing you do, and learning from it. They swear they won't grow up to be like us,
but they do. And they do it better, if we teach them better!
BTW, about your job, God will open the door when He is ready. But you knew that.
SB
SB,
Isn't that the truth! The kids mirror us in SCARY ways sometimes. Visited my parents this weekend and I am shocked how much like my dad I am. Good and bad.
Work is turning into an almost funny thing. I am filling pulpit at our church this week, so I am getting paid for it.Also have a few landscaping jobs lined up to get us through til a job comes in... He certainly isn't letting us starve!
Hi, I'm new to the forum. I've been reading the site for about 2 weeks now. Good stuff so far, but I haven't been able to find anything on sexual abuse. A little about me: 41, married 22 years, three children: 20, 18, 17. I am the pastoral intern at our church. On june 18 2008 I found out my wife had been having a 10 month affair with a co-worker. I had suspected, but she denied it until I caught her in a lie. After coming clean about that, she admitted she had a 2.5 month affair in 2001 with a coworker. We are coming up fast on three years. She just admitted that she loved the second guy. She ceased the affair immediately, cut all contact, and has been pursuing reconciliation (we have stayed together through all this) with me. Here's my problem.. in 2000, We agreed for her to go to counselling because of a highly abusive alcoholic father, and to deal with her sexual abuse. She was abused between the ages of 4 and 9 by an uncle. The counselor basically used his time to hit on her... I found out and stopped it. A few months later, it came out he was sleeping with 3 other women he was counselling. One of the things he told her was that she would get better if she was more promiscuous. We have dealt with many issues related to her abuse from her father and uncle... My question is this: How does it factor in? She still claims I provided everything she needed and it was a desire to get the acceptance her dad never gave her. Am I missing something important? I am ready after nearly three years of work (hard, painful work) to quit. We never got counselling. I would have lost my job immediately and we quite frankly would have been ostracized in our church community and I wanted to preserve what little reputation she or I had. The other guys are totally out of the picture, but I really just don't trust her despite the fact that I have seen change and effort. I'm just plain exhausted. Any advice about the relationship between being sexually/physically abused and meeting needs of the person that cheated?
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Not to T/J here, and I agree with what you said Pep.. but Waywards aren't really in a position to think clearly. There is direct and there is rude.
I too am skeptical, but she is here for help and not a hammer. 2x4's yes, hammers no. I've seen a few chased off the boards that I felt might have stuck around with a more... um... tamer approach.
Sorry for the thread jack and if we want to continue it, I am willing to do it on my thread (sexual abuse and affairs)
CV _
Welcome to Marriage Builders. I have no desire to t/j your thread.
Don't like my tone? Hit the notify moderator button. Thanks.
Welcome to Marriage Builders. I have no desire to t/j your thread.
Don't like my tone? Hit the notify moderator button. Thanks.
Pep,
Honestly, it's kinda crappy sometimes. There's great stuff mixed in, but you come off as angry and hurt sometimes more that direct and to the point. I love a lot of what you post on the site. I am not in disagreement that there are some that need a good smack in the head (or two!), but to always charge in like that shows a lack of discretion.
Honestly, I don't understand the idea that just because it's anonymous doesn't mean we cannot show them some basic human respect.
MB is great to work for everything but interaction with people that aren't our spouses... That's what i'm learning through some of these posts...
What I get is that it's ok to juggernaut through (particularly) waywards here, and it's ok for us to come off as argumentative, but when a wayward or other newbie does, they can just hit the street.
We are quick to point out others screw-ups but slow to receive our own. I am a BS too. I get mad when i read some screwed up posts... But while it works sometimes, it is not always the best way. People have differing personalities and not everyone responds the same way. Part of reasonable human interaction is recognizing this and reacting appropriately. It's not just you. I am not pointing straight at you. I am not saying don't be direct, open and honest... I am saying that there are differing ways to achieve that and we can all do better.
My W wanted to check out on her thread. She felt that there was little compassion. Here is a woman who is 3 years from Dday and asking for help. She LB'd her butt off and felt (whether real or perceived) that she was getting lumps unnecessarily. I encouraged her to stay and ride the wave, and it has benefited her (and me), but it might chase another person off. We want to help as many as possible, right?
Honestly, it's kinda crappy sometimes. There's great stuff mixed in, but you come off as angry and hurt sometimes more that direct and to the point. I love a lot of what you post on the site. I am not in disagreement that there are some that need a good smack in the head (or two!), but to always charge in like that shows a lack of discretion.
You must be kidding? Pepperband has been on here for over 10 years helping people with her advice and it is very disrespectful of you to tell her how to post. That is a disrespectful judgment in the extreme. You have no idea what will get through to whom; it takes ALL TYPES.
Personally, I do not appreciate your style. I think it is too vague and unfocused and I have a hard time following it. I find it very distracting to newcomers. But I would never be so arrogant to presume to TELL YOU how to post. I RESPECT that it takes all kinds to get through here and your style may hit the mark while others don't.
I am deeply offended that you feel qualified to tell other posters how to post. That is the moderators job, not yours. If you have an issue with a forum members post, you should let the moderators handle it.
Originally Posted by Disrespectful Judgements - pronouns changed to suit the situation
In the final analysis, disrespectful judgments represent an effort to force [fellow posters] to give us what we want, but it's often cleverly disguised. Instead of making an outright demand, we present our problem as if it were really our [fellow poster's] personal shortcoming. We try to "straighten out" our [fellow poster] in an effort to get our way.
At the time we rationalize our disrespect by convincing ourselves that we're doing our [fellow poster] a big favor, to lift them from the darkness of their confusion into the light of our superior perspective. If they would only follow our advice, we tell ourselves, they could avoid many of life's pitfalls-and we would also get what we want.
A disrespectful judgment occurs whenever one [poster]tries to impose a system of values and beliefs on the other. When a poster tries to force his point of view on his fellow poster, he's just asking for trouble. When a poster assumes that her own views are right and her fellow poster is woefully misguided -- and tells him so -- she enters a minefield.
In most cases, a disrespectful judgment is simply a sophisticated way of getting what one poster wants from the other. But even when there are the purest motives, it's still a stupid and abusive strategy. It's stupid because it doesn't work, and it's abusive because it causes unhappiness. If we think we have the right -- even the responsibility -- to impose our view on our other posters, our efforts will almost invariably be interpreted as personally threatening, arrogant, rude, and incredibly disrespectful.
You must be kidding? Pepperband has been on here for over 10 years helping people with her advice and it is very disrespectful of you to tell her how to post. That is a disrespectful judgment in the extreme. You have no idea what will get through to whom; it takes ALL TYPES.
Personally, I do not appreciate your style. I think it is too vague and unfocused and I have a hard time following it. I find it very distracting to newcomers. But I would never be so arrogant to presume to TELL YOU how to post. I RESPECT that it takes all kinds to get through here and your style may hit the mark while others don't.
I am deeply offended that you feel qualified to tell other posters how to post. That is the moderators job, not yours. If you have an issue with a forum members post, you should let the moderators handle it.
No. I am not kidding. I'm serious. As I said, I am not talking about content. Pep's content is nearly always great. I'm saying how we convey sometimes should be taken into consideration. I am aware that some of my comments appear vague and unfocused to some. It's ok. I'm not talking about content, just tone.
I agree, it does take all types. Disrespectful judgment? I disagree. If I didn't like pep I wouldn't have said anything... But your point is taken, I will just notify the moderators next time.
Originally Posted by Disrespectful Judgements - pronouns changed to suit the situation
In the final analysis, disrespectful judgments represent an effort to force [fellow posters] to give us what we want, but it's often cleverly disguised. Instead of making an outright demand, we present our problem as if it were really our [fellow poster's] personal shortcoming. We try to "straighten out" our [fellow poster] in an effort to get our way.
At the time we rationalize our disrespect by convincing ourselves that we're doing our [fellow poster] a big favor, to lift them from the darkness of their confusion into the light of our superior perspective. If they would only follow our advice, we tell ourselves, they could avoid many of life's pitfalls-and we would also get what we want.
A disrespectful judgment occurs whenever one [poster]tries to impose a system of values and beliefs on the other. When a poster tries to force his point of view on his fellow poster, he's just asking for trouble. When a poster assumes that her own views are right and her fellow poster is woefully misguided -- and tells him so -- she enters a minefield.
In most cases, a disrespectful judgment is simply a sophisticated way of getting what one poster wants from the other. But even when there are the purest motives, it's still a stupid and abusive strategy. It's stupid because it doesn't work, and it's abusive because it causes unhappiness. If we think we have the right -- even the responsibility -- to impose our view on our other posters, our efforts will almost invariably be interpreted as personally threatening, arrogant, rude, and incredibly disrespectful.
There's great stuff mixed in, but you come off as angry and hurt sometimes more that direct and to the point.
Accusing posters of being "angry" only means you don't agree with their point. Pepperband is about 12 years into recovery so the angry card is very inappropriate.
Originally Posted by Disrespectful Judgements - pronouns changed to suit the situation
In the final analysis, disrespectful judgments represent an effort to force [fellow posters] to give us what we want, but it's often cleverly disguised. Instead of making an outright demand, we present our problem as if it were really our [fellow poster's] personal shortcoming. We try to "straighten out" our [fellow poster] in an effort to get our way.
At the time we rationalize our disrespect by convincing ourselves that we're doing our [fellow poster] a big favor, to lift them from the darkness of their confusion into the light of our superior perspective. If they would only follow our advice, we tell ourselves, they could avoid many of life's pitfalls-and we would also get what we want.
A disrespectful judgment occurs whenever one [poster]tries to impose a system of values and beliefs on the other. When a poster tries to force his point of view on his fellow poster, he's just asking for trouble. When a poster assumes that her own views are right and her fellow poster is woefully misguided -- and tells him so -- she enters a minefield.
In most cases, a disrespectful judgment is simply a sophisticated way of getting what one poster wants from the other. But even when there are the purest motives, it's still a stupid and abusive strategy. It's stupid because it doesn't work, and it's abusive because it causes unhappiness. If we think we have the right -- even the responsibility -- to impose our view on our other posters, our efforts will almost invariably be interpreted as personally threatening, arrogant, rude, and incredibly disrespectful.
Lol... Or vague and unfocused...
That was one of Dr Harley's own articles with the pronouns changed. "Vague and unfocused" is not a description I have EVER heard in relation to his clear, concise and articulate articles. In fact, clear, precise articulation is what sets him apart.
[Pep's content is nearly always great. I'm saying how we convey sometimes should be taken into consideration. I am aware that some of my comments appear vague and unfocused to some. It's ok. I'm not talking about content, just tone.
Yes, I know. And you are saying your tone is superior. Which is profoundly arrogant and offensive.
That was one of Dr Harley's own articles with the pronouns changed. "Vague and unfocused" is not a description I have EVER heard in relation to his clear, concise and articulate articles. In fact, clear, precise articulation is what sets him apart.
No.. Not Dr, Harley... I was referring you your DJ towards me.
That was one of Dr Harley's own articles with the pronouns changed. "Vague and unfocused" is not a description I have EVER heard in relation to his clear, concise and articulate articles. In fact, clear, precise articulation is what sets him apart.
No.. Not Dr, Harley... I was referring you your DJ towards me.
There's great stuff mixed in, but you come off as angry and hurt sometimes more that direct and to the point.
Accusing posters of being "angry" only means you don't agree with their point. Pepperband is about 12 years into recovery so the angry card is very inappropriate.
Didn't say Pep was. I said that Pep appeared that way (and others too) at times. Communication is a funny thing. People come from all different walks of life. We have our own little dialects of language, for some here, English may not be the 1st language. As a result, we understand things differently, from different cultural/sociological perspectives. Finding a common language is difficult, and as a result, understanding (of something being said) is always in the realm of the listener and not the speaker.
discussion forums are extremely limited in this capacity. For instance, you may perceive me to have a burr in my saddle right now, when I really don't. In actuality, I'm sitting on my back porch, in an easy chair, drinking an Arizona tea and not upset at all. Truth is, we can all do better than we do. My comment was nothing more than a gentle admonition. Take it for what it's worth. Thing is, I agreed with Pepper's point, but not the delivery.
Yes, I know. And you are saying your tone is superior. Which is profoundly arrogant and offensive.
And very, very disrespectful.
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If I didn't like pep I wouldn't have said anything...
This is how most DJs are disguised. "I like you, so I wanna straighten you out ... to help you ..."
No. I know I need to improve the way I speak as well. BUT! That is what we call in logic a red-herring. not that i am opposed to talking about that.
It is how many are disguised (DJs). That's true. And sometimes things simply are what someone claims they are. A gentle admonition given out of care. See, if you knew me (the guy sitting her at the keyboard) you know that what my concern is, is that BS' and WS' get as much help as possible (just like everyone else that posts help here). I don't want to see anyone run off for something that I did that was easily prevented, or something someone else did that was easily prevented. All of you have helped me. I appreciate it immensely. You guys have helped so many others and I admire that greatly, but it doesn't change how i feel about it. Or... Am I not entitled to that?
A reminder that it is the job of the moderators to straighten out other posters. If you have an issue with another poster, let us handle it. But don't start fights telling others how to post. It is disruptive and disrespectful. Let's get back to marriage building!
...I've seen a few chased off the boards that I felt might have stuck around with a more... um... tamer approach.
Hi, CV, I appreciate your wanting to stick up for those folks, although personally, I'm sorta inclined to question whether they exist. Maybe they do, probably they might. I allow for the theory.
Your wife has stuck around. She's looked herself in the eye, looked in the rearview mirror, done some hard introspection, and internalized pretty well a proper understanding of the hows/whys/whens of where she went wrong, where her choices were selfish. She's had a thick skin, has taken good advice, and stuck around even when it wasn't fun or painless to contemplate what she'd done & been. I think that's great, and I'm rooting for you guys. I think your story has a lot to offer other BSs and WSs.
My unproven theory is that I don't think a wayward can dependaby earn his or her "F" [for "Former"] by any other route. If a wayward spouse is serious about rebuilding a better marriage that will stand fast, then there'll be days when the wayward spouse feels like crap. And there'dbetter be. That's part of confronting what you've done, when you've done what I've done & what she's done. As a wayward, there's no shortcut that you can trust to get your mind back where it needs to be, from where it was.
Now, there can be luck. Just like I can stand in my driveway blindfolded and heave a basketball backwards over my shoulder, and 1 out of 400 times I might just bank it off the garage roof & the maple tree and swish it through the hoop despite the odds -- so can some people probably recover their marriages while having skins so thin that they can't stand up to a few words bearing merely the light of truth (which is sometimes harsh, and salutorily so), borne by mere anonymous strangers on an internet forum. My theory is that people who can't hack that, probably can't hack facing down what they allowed themselves to become, in such a way as to ensure that it never happens again.
I agree there are times when the old saw "You'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" applies; but most waywards come here with the primary problem of having a lot of crud on their emotional boots (on account of having stepped, waded & wallowed in crud), and honey ain't gonna get 'em clean at all; whereas vinegar might. This make any sense?
Ok. I was going to respond last night, but am trying to avoid being moderated
I guess if we talk in this vein it's safe, because we are talking about helping WS and not about anyone in specific. Personally, I am the type of person that'd like to just roll through someone who's done this, and I'm working on my own approach to well... just about everyone I try and interact with. I guess I'm trying in the broader sense to operate on a principle. One that I see in Dr. Harley's books and articles...
1Th 5:14-16 And we urge you, brothers, admonish the idle, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with them all. (15) See that no one repays anyone evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to everyone. (16) Rejoice always,
I understand that not everyone here is a Christian, and i am not here to convert anyone. However, Scripture is my primary recovery book. SAA, HNHN, LB, and the forums are secondary to me. Good tools all, but not like the scriptures for me.
my thought is that some aren't strong enough to take it, so i agree with you. I'm not suggesting that they be coddled, but built up. So I guess the question for me, that I've been thinking on, is how is the best way to build a weak person up? Particularly when there lacks a foundational relationship between the person asking and the person giving.
1Th 5:14-16 And we urge you, brothers, admonish the idle, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with them all. (15) See that no one repays anyone evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to everyone. (16) Rejoice always,
CV, I am a Bible believing Christian and it is NOT "evil" to apply a 2x4 where needed. We all know Jesus Christ did the same. What is evil is to coddle folks or sit by idly while someone is inviting harm into their lives. For example, the bulk of my 2x4's tend to be aimed at betrayed HUSBANDS who sorely need a wake up call. "Evil?" Of course not. There is nothing evil about knocking someone off the railroad tracks when the train is coming right at them.
The bottom line is that you can only control how *YOU* post. You are not in a position to tell others how to post here and the very premise is profoundly disrespectful and offensive. You don't have a superior style to others. You have been here a few short weeks yet are lecturing folks who are a) in a fully recovered marriage and b) who have been on this forum for YEARS helping untold members save their marriages. That is some amazing arrogance.
Trying to correct other board members for their posting style is one of the most disruptive behaviors I have ever seen on this board in 10 years here because it is so disrespectful. As you can see for yourself, it doesn't work.
I'm not suggesting that they be coddled, but built up. So I guess the question for me, that I've been thinking on, is how is the best way to build a weak person up? Particularly when there lacks a foundational relationship between the person asking and the person giving
The key phrase here is "the question FOR ME" because you can only control your own approach and not that of others. I have noticed that we seem to employ the approach that would work best for OURSELVES, and therein lies the beauty and value of this forum. IT takes all kinds. Your approach would never work with a person like me, but my approach would. And vice versa.
That is why it makes no sense whatsoever to try and persuade others to post like you. You don't have the only approach that works. I have watched Pepperband for 10+ years and she has reached many, many people over those years. She doesn't need to change her style to suit anyone. I have learned over the years that there is great value to a diversity of styles, even if I don't particularly agree with some. [with the exception of coddlers, of course, which are actually destructive, IMO]
Would you agree with Dr Harley here?
Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
"If we think we have the right -- even the responsibility -- to impose our view on our other [posters,] our efforts will almost invariably be interpreted as personally threatening, arrogant, rude, and incredibly disrespectful."
Ok. I was going to respond last night, but am trying to avoid being moderated
I guess if we talk in this vein it's safe, because we are talking about helping WS and not about anyone in specific. Personally, I am the type of person that'd like to just roll through someone who's done this, and I'm working on my own approach to well... just about everyone I try and interact with. I guess I'm trying in the broader sense to operate on a principle. One that I see in Dr. Harley's books and articles...
1Th 5:14-16 And we urge you, brothers, admonish the idle, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with them all. (15) See that no one repays anyone evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to everyone. (16) Rejoice always,
I understand that not everyone here is a Christian, and i am not here to convert anyone. However, Scripture is my primary recovery book. SAA, HNHN, LB, and the forums are secondary to me. Good tools all, but not like the scriptures for me.
my thought is that some aren't strong enough to take it, so i agree with you. I'm not suggesting that they be coddled, but built up. So I guess the question for me, that I've been thinking on, is how is the best way to build a weak person up? Particularly when there lacks a foundational relationship between the person asking and the person giving.
CV,
I am also a Christian -- So is Pepperband, btw. I am a FWW -- A very blunt Pepperband post is one that still rings in my head today - I CREDIT that post as being one of THE most helpful that I ever received here. If not for Pep, I'm not sure how much deeper into the abyss of sin I might have chosen to go.
So you do NOT know what posting style will help one poster or another. Stick with your style and give your brand of help -- that might get through to someone -- but not everyone.
Here's what I'd like to convey to you -- What if Pep changed her style due to your comments [laughable, I know she won't], but what if she did and then another person like ME came along who NEEDED her brand of help? I hope you will think about that.
Mrs. W
P.S. I was an arrogant wayward who did NOT need to be "built up" -- I needed to hear that I was not the "be-all-end-all-too-cool-for-school-coolio" that I thought I was. I needed to see how others viewed what I had done. I needed to know that what I had done others thought was "bad, very bad".
CV, I am a Bible believing Christian and it is NOT "evil" to apply a 2x4 where needed. We all know Jesus Christ did the same. What is evil is to coddle folks or sit by idly while someone is inviting harm into their lives. For example, the bulk of my 2x4's tend to be aimed at betrayed HUSBANDS who sorely need a wake up call. "Evil?" Of course not. There is nothing evil about knocking someone off the railroad tracks when the train is coming right at them.
The bottom line is that you can only control how *YOU* post. You are not in a position to tell others how to post here and the very premise is profoundly disrespectful and offensive. You don't have a superior style to others. You have been here a few short weeks yet are lecturing folks who are a) in a fully recovered marriage and b) who have been on this forum for YEARS helping untold members save their marriages. That is some amazing arrogance.
Trying to correct other board members for their posting style is one of the most disruptive behaviors I have ever seen on this board in 10 years here because it is so disrespectful. As you can see for yourself, it doesn't work.
Mel,
Firefly actually posted here last night asking we drop the discussion from yesterday's posts. As much as I would like to keep discussing the posts from yesterday, I don't feel that ignoring a moderator would be in any of our best interests. And really, what more needs to be said about it?
We can discuss the principle, but i am not willing to dredge the stuff from yesterday up. If you want to do that... explore helpful ways to interact, I'm for it. But if everyone thinks they are good, that's fine too.
I've been following this - can I jump in? :::not waiting for an answer:::
Just like we all have different personalities, we all have different posting styles. Some posters are gentle and thoughtful. Others are no-nonsense and forthright. Some are...um...a little vague. Others hit solidly one day and miss wildly the next.
I think there is a place for these different styles and I think they're all important. What doesn't work for one will hopefully work for another. I think it is the collection of a variety of voices that works well on this site. I have been to other sites where the emphasis has been on not hurting anyone's feelings, or not lowering anyone's self-esteem. Those sites tend to be anemic. They run in circles and seem to frustrate some posters who are almost begging for a stern wake-up with no sugar coating. They want someone to help them straighten up, because they've already shown that they can't do it on their own.
One thing I've noticed here is that posters don't hesitate to jump in when it seems like another voice is needed. Working together seems to work very well here. It is the collective commitment to helping posters that is served in the end.
One thing needs to remain constant: All roads lead to MarriageBuilders. That's the program that works. It's the one other sites try to emulate. Straying from this program doesn't work here. Suggesting other programs dilutes the strength and focus of MB. That won't fly and the poster will be called on it. As they should.
And isn't it great - the tools are here! Dr. Harley is here! We've got the program that works.
I remember an instance in our first days on MB [mine and Mr. W's] when Mr. W made a post to a long time member asking that the poster change a few of his posts -- Mr. W got schooled in a hurry that that was NOT acceptable, and he shut his trap. We've now been here for nearly 6 years, and we've definitely seen the value of having all different styles on the board.
Now, anytime someone tries to correct the style of others, we look back and laugh at Mr. W's early gaff. If you are still here years from now, I bet you will do the same about your recent posts. Live and learn.
Mrs. W
P.S. So as not to get in trouble with "Firefly", I'll offer up this tribute:
A reminder that it is the job of the moderators to straighten out other posters. If you have an issue with another poster, let us handle it. But don't start fights telling others how to post. It is disruptive and disrespectful. Let's get back to marriage building!
Thank you, moderators, for building a culture here where we do not get distracted trying to straighten each other out, where each of us can take what we want from any individual poster's message and ignore the rest. It sure helps minimize the defensiveness which is so damaging to building good marriages, and to building maturity in general.
I've been on other boards where the culture is to protect people from ever hearing anything personally uncomfortable, because they might be too "sensitive." That doesn't seem to work well when the essence of a problem is that you really need to take an uncomfortable look at your own mistakes. At some point here somebody correctly pointed out that I was trying to avoid looking at my own mistakes, and I credit that with really helping me to mature and grow up.
OK, a few people have asked for updates, so here goes....
Grace had eye surgery last Monday. It was a partial corneal transplant. Basically what they did was cut out 1/3 of her bottom 2 layers of the cornea and replace it with a cadaver's. The expected waiting healing time with no problems is around 2 and a half months.
Basically they stick the pie shaped replacement in, fasten it with a few stitches and place an air bubble under it to hold it in the correct position for 12 hours so it can attach. She's supposed to be completely prone during this time.
Anyway, the surgery itself went ok on Monday with one exception. She complained immediately of pain in the eye after she came out of the anesthesia. She said the pain was about an 8 or 9 on a 10 scale. They gave her a pain killer and sent us back to the hotel to wait for the follow up appointment.
After about an hour and a half, the pain began growing by leaps and bounds. In fact, she started having convulsions from the pain and vomiting. I called the on-call emergency doctor and he said to not wait for an ambulance and take her back into the hospital. He wanted me to call his cell when I was pulling into the parking lot and he would meet us there. By the time we got to the hospital she was screaming non-stop from the pain at the top of her lungs. I couldn't hear the doctor on the phone and had to park and leave her in the car so I could call him back.
If you've ever been to John Hopkins Medical center, it's big. really big. I had to direct the doctor to us by phone, get her into a wheel chair (couldn't take her to the ER because they weren't equipped to do the work), and then we went to the DR's office. Well the building was closed for the night and all the elevators were shut off for the night. I carried her up 3 flights of stairs to the office with the DR in tow. Between the hotel and the Dr's office she filled a grocery bag from all the nausea.
Long story short, I held her down while the DR took her eye pressure readings. below 20 is normal and good. She was at 91. Anything over 90 and as he explained , she is in danger of losing the eye. Apparently the air bubble shifted and blocked the fluid and air flow in the eye causing pressure buildup.
The Dr had to pull the flap of the cornea to release the pressure and immediately after the second try she felt relieved.
The eye is a funny thing I am finding out. One eye is hurt and the other automatically shuts to protect itself. I have spent the last week with a blind woman.
2 days ago her good eye opened back up, but she still cannot see out of the bad eye. looking through the good eye causes stress so it's limited though she was able to watch a movie yesterday.
We have an appointment tomorrow to see if they need to reset the cornea transplant. if it is attaching they will leave it alone.
Well that was our adventure. I will post some more thoughts in a bit. Being a BS caring for a FWW has been interesting for both of us. I will share some thoughts in a bit.
I am very sorry to hear all of this. I hope that Grace will recover from the mess and that her sight can be fully restored. What a horrible experience.
Thanks! Prayers are much appreciated. What is interesting is how we have been forced to do certain things.
I was highly triggered on the day of the surgery. We had to drive by nearly all the "trigger spots" to get there. Providence dictated that I not have time to dwell on any of them. I deal with triggers better now, but I still have bad days.
The other interesting thing is that we have been working on trust and honesty. Two of the main things that got her into trouble. She didn't trust anyone but herself, and has been struggling with trusting me more fully in the last three years and we have been working on being honest about feelings since we got that great advice from SB a few months back.
Her not being able to see, having me dress her, walk her everywhere, be there when she needed anything and administer her meds has caused something of a revelation for her.
It has also caused me to look at myself, have to set *me* aside and focus solely on her. I had to trust her to let me help. I have learned a new aspect of what it means to lay your life down for your wife. Lots of time for self examination for both of us and not much time to discuss things together (if she cries it hurts her eyes). So... even after three years we are learning new things and being forced to move a little further each time.
Progress is made in the little things, but it's the big things that help you see them.
quick update.. we had a doctor's appt today and the cornea didn't attach at all. Ugh. She has another surgery scheduled for monday to reposition it. Hopefully this one will work.
celticvoyager: wanted to thank you for being a kind ear to bend when I originally posted here. I appreciate your non-judgmental approach.
Terribly sorry to hear about the difficulty with your wife's eye surgery. I know you're both dreading the "repeat" operation.
Not a particularly religious person, but have no qualms whatsoever about reaching out to whatever higher power there may be on behalf of others. I'm praying for you and asking for total healing and peace.
celticvoyager: wanted to thank you for being a kind ear to bend when I originally posted here. I appreciate your non-judgmental approach.
Terribly sorry to hear about the difficulty with your wife's eye surgery. I know you're both dreading the "repeat" operation.
Not a particularly religious person, but have no qualms whatsoever about reaching out to whatever higher power there may be on behalf of others. I'm praying for you and asking for total healing and peace.
Thank you, CV . . .
Prayers are appreciated! how are you doing? Are you guys recovering?
Before I started dating my husband I was involved in a sexually abusive relationship. That may sound odd, but the person I was involved with was incredibly sexually deviant and made me do terrible things. He convinced me he had "ruined" me for other men and that this was who I was now. It made me so sick and only by meeting the man who is now my husband I had the strength to get out.
Although I received counseling before marriage, I never quite got over it and it was stuck in my mind that all I am good for to men is sex, and if they don't want that I am worthless. After I got married, my husband worked long hours and turned down sex a lot because he was tired. I felt worthless and undesireable. So when someone came along who thought I was gorgeous and sexy it was like shooting fish in a barrel.
I am currently in counseling and I stress that your wife needs to be in it as well, with a FEMALE counselor. She needs to realize that her worth does not depend on what and how much she can do sexually, but because God made her and loves her deeply. Her former counselor should be charged for abusing his position and power dynamic. He will encounter endless broken girls that he can "groom" and needs to be stopped.
Find her a good, reputable counselor for starters. Hold her. Tell her you love her. Compliment her on even the simplest things. Sexual abuse is something that you cannot just get over, and even when things get better it sticks with you and triggers things inside of you. That is why a pro is best to deal with these things because they are experienced and most likely dealt with it before.
Again, that's great news CV. I can kind of relate because my wife also has eye issues that've required several surgeries. She never had to have a corneal transplant and never had to go through the terrible pain your wife experienced, though. Gave me chills to read about it.
Very glad she seems to be healing up properly this time.
By the way, had a breakthrough with our situation. I had my thread moved over to the Recovery forum.
Tweety, the issue of counseling for sex abuse was addressed very early on in the thread, including excerpts and links to Dr Harleys feelings on counseling for childhood issues.
CV, just as an aside, I talked to Dr Harley about my H's repeated affairs and also his troubled/abusive childhood. Dr Harley said that low self-esteem does play a role but that in his experience(at one time even having 200 therapist working under him) therapy does NOTHING to help self-esteem. I think you already know this and that you and grace are on a good path right now working the program.
ps ~ happy to hear that grace is recovering from her surgery!
Before I started dating my husband I was involved in a sexually abusive relationship. That may sound odd, but the person I was involved with was incredibly sexually deviant and made me do terrible things. He convinced me he had "ruined" me for other men and that this was who I was now. It made me so sick and only by meeting the man who is now my husband I had the strength to get out.
Hi Tweety, no, it doesn't sound odd. This same feeling you describe was what she experienced after her first affair. She broke it off shortly after it began, but the feelings did remain.
Although I received counseling before marriage, I never quite got over it and it was stuck in my mind that all I am good for to men is sex, and if they don't want that I am worthless. After I got married, my husband worked long hours and turned down sex a lot because he was tired. I felt worthless and undesireable. So when someone came along who thought I was gorgeous and sexy it was like shooting fish in a barrel.
I am currently in counseling and I stress that your wife needs to be in it as well, with a FEMALE counselor. She needs to realize that her worth does not depend on what and how much she can do sexually, but because God made her and loves her deeply. Her former counselor should be charged for abusing his position and power dynamic. He will encounter endless broken girls that he can "groom" and needs to be stopped.
I think it would be fair to say that she is over/past the sexual abuse of her past. we spent a solid three years dealing with that. It is not really a factor. The counselor she was seeing years ago skipped town when he was exposed. I cannot find him even using online pay programs. Frankly he's not worth the time.
Find her a good, reputable counselor for starters. Hold her. Tell her you love her. Compliment her on even the simplest things. Sexual abuse is something that you cannot just get over, and even when things get better it sticks with you and triggers things inside of you. That is why a pro is best to deal with these things because they are experienced and most likely dealt with it before.
All the best!
One of our best therapies has been counseling... Counseling others that is. HNHN has been a great book for identifying and overcoming triggers. I've also taken several counseling classes over the last year to better help both us and others we work with. Holding her and showing affection is great. One thing that stands out is that lifetime patterns don't break overnight. It takes time to not just break the old habits, but to replace them with new..god.. habits. But it can be done. Thanks!
Again, that's great news CV. I can kind of relate because my wife also has eye issues that've required several surgeries. She never had to have a corneal transplant and never had to go through the terrible pain your wife experienced, though. Gave me chills to read about it.
Very glad she seems to be healing up properly this time.
By the way, had a breakthrough with our situation. I had my thread moved over to the Recovery forum.
Take care!
Great news! I'll have to check it out!
She reported this week that her "new" eye is better than the unoperated one, just fatigues faster right now. She's working 1/2 days so this is a great improvement.
CV, just as an aside, I talked to Dr Harley about my H's repeated affairs and also his troubled/abusive childhood. Dr Harley said that low self-esteem does play a role but that in his experience(at one time even having 200 therapist working under him) therapy does NOTHING to help self-esteem. I think you already know this and that you and grace are on a good path right now working the program.
ps ~ happy to hear that grace is recovering from her surgery!
Thanks! You are right. Our esteem has to be found not in what happened or what we've done, but in who we presently are and are becoming.
Ok.... Just when you think it's safe to come out and play....
I thought I've been doing better but am MAJORLY triggered. A week ago OM#2 sends an email to my W. WTF?!?! It's been three years with her having NO contact. He has not tried contacting her in almost 2 years.
The email said: Are you there? I know I haven't tried contacting you in a while but I was hoping we might still have something. Please don't tell ---cv---, but I never stop thinking of you.
What does she do? Shows it to me immediately. unopened. This is my fault. We didn't change her email. Apparently he had her email password and changed the blocked settings.. Rrrggh. All we did was block him.
I contacted his command, but they blew me off (yaaay for the military). I did find his wife. They are separated by several states and have been apparently divorced over a year.
As I said... I'm highly triggered. I am open for suggestions, because my first inclination is to take a drive down to where he's at (7 hours south) and beat him silly.
G says let it ride and don't waste time. What say ye all? How do I pass this trigger? I haven't been this riled up in 2 years.
He's not worth the time and effort. What about sending him a NC letter, your wife writes, you okay and then send. Then CHANGE HER EMAIL ADDY.
Hi Scotland,
Well... how many NC's are too many? We have sent several in the past three years... We already took care of the email address... That won't be a problem in the future. I'm just kinda at wits end with this tool (not my W). I guess we can write one more, but honestly this POS will take any contact as positive contact I think.
cv- you are such a help to so many, i am sorry you are in this state now.
i did a cease and desist letter from a lawyer friend. i guess it got her scared enough for the time being, their day they met anniv is sunday, so i am expecting the worse, but she is a bunny bunner and it saved me the 100+ texts and emails. do yo have a friend that is a lawyer? as long as you have the documents that you have requested NC and thats been broken you have proof.
i thing receiving aletter like that is pretty frightening to anyone. it may work, i am sorry you are dealing with this.
cv- you are such a help to so many, i am sorry you are in this state now.
i did a cease and desist letter from a lawyer friend. i guess it got her scared enough for the time being, their day they met anniv is sunday, so i am expecting the worse, but she is a bunny bunner and it saved me the 100+ texts and emails. do yo have a friend that is a lawyer? as long as you have the documents that you have requested NC and thats been broken you have proof.
i thing receiving aletter like that is pretty frightening to anyone. it may work, i am sorry you are dealing with this.
Duh! Why didn't I think of this? My wife works for a lawyer! See... that's why I post here. Thanks Chick and Scotland!
CV, if you had a lawyer write the letter, you could also either send it registered mail or hire a process server. Know any law enforcement types who could deliver it in uniform? Heh...ok, that could be misrepresentation of police powers, but OM would probably be too busy wetting his pants to worry about that.
On another subject, I was glad to read that BG's second surgery was a success and her vision is improving - good stuff, that!
Not mad at her. Told her that. I am proud she did the right thing. I am upset that this turd still plagues us. Just read another thread where OW tried contact after 12 years! Ugh. I'm kinda mad at myself too. That this thing caught me so off guard and triggered me so easily.
She is also doing a remarkable job journaling on many issues that were root causes for her. I read it from time to time and she is super open and honest. It's a great help to recovery. I think the stress of her 1st failed eye surgery and the resultant 2nd one (which worked) and now a kid who's been sick and in the ER 2x this week has worn me down.
Maybe i need her to smack me in the head a few times...
CV, I'm not a big fan of doing nothing, so I agree with the posters recommending some legal approach. Set the stage for hanging him with harassment if it comes to that.
As an alternative: I believe you've posted that you're in the Virginia area. That would put me about seven hours south of you. If you need help with your light work, just let me know (LOL).
Heck, your OM2 might be the same as my OM1. My OM's recently lost his main squeeze and might be fishing for a new lady . . .
CV, I'm not a big fan of doing nothing, so I agree with the posters recommending some legal approach. Set the stage for hanging him with harassment if it comes to that.
As an alternative: I believe you've posted that you're in the Virginia area. That would put me about seven hours south of you. If you need help with your light work, just let me know (LOL).
Heck, your OM2 might be the same as my OM1. My OM's recently lost his main squeeze and might be fishing for a new lady . . .
If it's the same guy, I will knock him again... lol
I will pursue it when things settle down here. Not sure what's going on in the CV house this year, must be the luck of the irish... My youngest has been in the hospital since Sat. with meningitis. Ugh. Hoping he goes home tomorrow.
...This is my fault. We didn't change her email. Apparently he had her email password and changed the blocked settings.. Rrrggh. All we did was block him.
SAA (somewhere around p.70, where it speaks of "extraordinary precautions") suggests that a wayward spouse should be especially proactive in blocking avenues for potential contact. In this day & age, changing e-mail is pretty basic -- I wouldn't even call it "extraordinary." Your wife should've done this long ago. And his being able to change the "blocked" setting on her account, from remote? That's a little weird, and no, CV, this episode of contact ain't your fault. Your wife screwed up in not remembering that she'd given OM password access to this account, and in not closing it altogether. I'm not saying you need to punish her for that, but at the same time, she needs to "own" that she screwed up. Forwarding it to you unopened (or clicking "mark unread" and showing it to you "unopened"?) while you sit around typing "This is my fault" isn't enough.
Well, it's water under the bridge. If I were you, I'd send him another NC message, written by & from you (but sent as a reply from your wife's e-mail, so that you'll be sure POS OM will eagerly open & read it) and then close the account immediately before he responds again. Extend him the promise that he will regret any further attempts to interfere with your family. With prayer & by the hardest, you should be able to steer clear of speciifc-threat language that could land you in legal trouble, e.g., for promising to hogtie him & burn off all his ankle-hair with a Bic lighter & work your way up, etc.
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
...I contacted his command, but they blew me off (yaaay for the military).
Whom all did you contact? Just his CO? If he's still in the military, I would also be wallpapering the Pentagon from Secretary Panetta on down with such a ****storm of cease-&-desist letters, and cc'ing every general counsel & relevant member of Congress on every one, so that some of the **** would be sure to flow downhill & the dude would be sure not to get promoted above urinal toothbrush again.
...This is my fault. We didn't change her email. Apparently he had her email password and changed the blocked settings.. Rrrggh. All we did was block him.
SAA (somewhere around p.70, where it speaks of "extraordinary precautions") suggests that a wayward spouse should be especially proactive in blocking avenues for potential contact. In this day & age, changing e-mail is pretty basic -- I wouldn't even call it "extraordinary." Your wife should've done this long ago. And his being able to change the "blocked" setting on her account, from remote? That's a little weird, and no, CV, this episode of contact ain't your fault. Your wife screwed up in not remembering that she'd given OM password access to this account, and in not closing it altogether. I'm not saying you need to punish her for that, but at the same time, she needs to "own" that she screwed up. Forwarding it to you unopened (or clicking "mark unread" and showing it to you "unopened"?) while you sit around typing "This is my fault" isn't enough.
Well, it's water under the bridge. If I were you, I'd send him another NC message, written by & from you (but sent as a reply from your wife's e-mail, so that you'll be sure POS OM will eagerly open & read it) and then close the account immediately before he responds again. Extend him the promise that he will regret any further attempts to interfere with your family. With prayer & by the hardest, you should be able to steer clear of speciifc-threat language that could land you in legal trouble, e.g., for promising to hogtie him & burn off all his ankle-hair with a Bic lighter & work your way up, etc.
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
...I contacted his command, but they blew me off (yaaay for the military).
Whom all did you contact? Just his CO? If he's still in the military, I would also be wallpapering the Pentagon from Secretary Panetta on down with such a ****storm of cease-&-desist letters, and cc'ing every general counsel & relevant member of Congress on every one, so that some of the **** would be sure to flow downhill & the dude would be sure not to get promoted above urinal toothbrush again.
Glove,
it really was my fault to a degree. remember we came to MB almost 3 years after dday and stumbled through much of it. I'm pretty sure she didn't click it marked as unread. She hates the guy. Maybe hate is too nice a word. But I do get your point. I made her keep the account after dday to prove something (not sure what I was proving.. maybe that I wasn't whooped?) We haven't heard anything since the letter was ignored. Wife doesn't drive now that her eye has been operated on, can't really text because of vision problems and is only on the computer with me in the room. She is tighter on following her EPs than I am.
If we hear back from the little turd-burglar I will send the cease and desist letters to the whole chain of command. He was already busted for the affair. released from active duty and is now serving as an active reservist (minus 2 stripes, from e-7 to e-5 after 16 years in).
I will talk to her more when things settle down here a bit.
If he was already busted for the affair, and he's still pursuing the still-married woman for which he was busted, this guy must have an IQ in the 70's.
I hope he's an E5 military cook, so the only thing he can screw up is the omelet orders. Frightening that such a man is in our armed forces.
Is your son still in the hospital? How's he doing? How's Mrs. CV holding up? With your wife still recovering from surgery, looks like you're taking the brunt of the impact from all of this. You holding up okay?
If he was already busted for the affair, and he's still pursuing the still-married woman for which he was busted, this guy must have an IQ in the 70's.
I hope he's an E5 military cook, so the only thing he can screw up is the omelet orders. Frightening that such a man is in our armed forces.
Is your son still in the hospital? How's he doing? How's Mrs. CV holding up? With your wife still recovering from surgery, looks like you're taking the brunt of the impact from all of this. You holding up okay?
I'm guessing his IQ is right about equivalent to Gump. The letters he wrote to Grace were actually funny. Here's one I remember (and some of the letters were actually written backwards)
Deer ____,
I saw your hands threw the partishion when you were talking to _____ and they were sexie. I cant get you're hand off of my mind. I thought of you all bay (d was backwards). can we meet agin after work(K was backwards)?
Lol it was a [censored]-fest from beginning to end. anyway... Son's home as of last night. He is off antbiotics and they said the meningitis was viral not bacterial (they think). We don't don't need to be on meds for exposure. G's eyes are healing nicely but she experiences eye fatigue pretty quickly so I have to monitor her closely because she is a ginger and very hard-headed...
Oddly, I work better under pressure than in a no pressure environment. We are expecting to crash and burn here in the next day or two though... We are both sleep deprived and will probably sleep all day saturday (if we make it that far!). She's back at work 1/2 days. Her boss has been great.
Emotionally, I am drained. the last month has been he77. my body aches and I feel like even my hair is sore! The other 2 kids are a huge help though and I am grateful.
Ok... thought I'd share this and invite some comments from folks. 5 weeks ago (maybe 6 now) our community bible study finished our study on Galatians... I had this grand idea that we would do a Harley book. Everyone was agreeable (in theory) to doing a book on building marriages since we are all married couples or married but spouse is not attending...
Well we started HNHN.... Whooo nelly! We are a small group. 2 couples and 2 married ladies whose husbands don't attend. One of the ladies has been married 52 years as has one of the couples (my mom and dad). Come to find out, only one person there has not had infidelity in their marriage.
The study has been a roller coaster. I feel I am counseling my own parents, a lady whose husband is a serial cheater, ourselves and getting input from this crazy lady in our study who's stumbled through mb principles to make her marriage work for 52 years.. It's a rollercoaster to be sure! Anyway, I wanted to share.
CV, I'm new to these threads....but have followed your advice the past several days. You were one reason I decided I needed this group.
As far as ever taking a marriage class with my parents....not something I would ever sign up for. You are a brave soul. Good luck with the study.
Tex, Thanks! My wife just shared her after-meeting meeting with mom... Ugh sex-talk with your 70+ year old parents is not where I wanted to be tonight. BUT... they have limped along 19 years after dad's affair... She still punishes him and the MB material is embraced by both mom and dad. pretty amazing if you knew him.
Could never do it. You're either brave or crazy, my friend.
Wife that still can't see correctly, son recovering from a serious infection, and you tackle the subject of infidelity in your church group -- oh yeah, and your mother.
Could never do it. You're either brave or crazy, my friend.
Wife that still can't see correctly, son recovering from a serious infection, and you tackle the subject of infidelity in your church group -- oh yeah, and your mother.
I'm leaning toward crazy . . .
It's my gift. I always run towards the conflict... Why? Umm.... Dunno.
Wife and I have been doing a class using HNHN for our community Bible Study. If you've been following, it's an interesting group. Among the people who are there are my parents. One lady who was enthusiastic at the beginning started backtracking quickly when we started the study.
Come to find out, her husband's a controlling serial-cheater... She missed the 3rd study and came back reluctantly for the 4th. We only are 2 chapters into the book!
Well, her objection was that she didn't want to discuss personal marital issues. I told her no one was going to be asking personal questions about their sex life or anything. So after a big blow up last week, I told her to please give it another shot, that the book was good for basic relationships as well as marriages.
I assigned homework. everyone was supposed to go through the book from page 1 to chapter 3 and see how these principles fit into basic relationships.
Well low and behold! We got together this week and I reread key points from the book. I replaced couples with friends and marriages with relationships. We were able to go through the basic ideas of MB without triggering anyone!
Funny in a way. That same lady walked away saying "I learned so much! This is awesome! I wonder if it will work with my husband too!"
Go figure... Remove the trigger and viola! She can hear again...
Well, I don't know if anyone follows the thread here or not anymore, but if anyone does, I'd appreciate prayers. My W (grace4me) has another appointment at the Dr tomorrow morning for her eye. We are not sure what's wrong other than she is having pain in the eye socket, and the muscles around the eye are affected. We are hoping her eye isn't rejecting the transplant. We are pretty much broke after 2 12k visits to the dr with no insurance.
Apparently I am the celt that cried wolf... Went to the Dr's today (just got back) and turns out the soreness is simply her doing waaay too much work. She has no infection, the transplant is healing nicely with no signs of rejection, eye pressure is good.
Guess that means she stares at her work too long? Thanks all for your prayers.
On another note, I think I did something extremely foolish today....
The dr's is 2 hours away and I wanted to stop for lunch. I was feeling pretty good (almost every trigger spot I have is on the way) and decided I wanted to stop at a particular eating establishment. It was one I always wanted to eat at, but one that W and OM had lunch at. She didn't argue or put up a fight, but when we got there, I noticed her attitude had changed considerably.
Haven't seen her like this ever. I asked what was wrong and she just looked at me and then it dawned on me.... I triggered her. In three years I have never seen her triggered (or at least in my selfishness, never noticed it)!!!
I did ask her and she was completely open and honest. Told me that she usually tries to hide when she's triggered so I can heal.
We had good conversation and oddly I felt great. Not that she was devastated by this, but because I wasn't and because it lead us to talk about O&H more. How it benefits us both to have it, and why we need it between us on these things.
Even though we ended with good conversations and no AO's I'd still appreciate comments.
On another note, I think I did something extremely foolish today....
The dr's is 2 hours away and I wanted to stop for lunch. I was feeling pretty good (almost every trigger spot I have is on the way) and decided I wanted to stop at a particular eating establishment. It was one I always wanted to eat at, but one that W and OM had lunch at. She didn't argue or put up a fight, but when we got there, I noticed her attitude had changed considerably.
Haven't seen her like this ever. I asked what was wrong and she just looked at me and then it dawned on me.... I triggered her. In three years I have never seen her triggered (or at least in my selfishness, never noticed it)!!!
I did ask her and she was completely open and honest. Told me that she usually tries to hide when she's triggered so I can heal.
We had good conversation and oddly I felt great. Not that she was devastated by this, but because I wasn't and because it lead us to talk about O&H more. How it benefits us both to have it, and why we need it between us on these things.
Even though we ended with good conversations and no AO's I'd still appreciate comments.
CV
How where you reacting when you told WW lets eat here and when you got to the table?
Dude, let's be honest here. It does, sadly, feel great that they might be devastated. That the happy reminiscing about the addiction no longer exists, and thoughts about using are painful instead.
It's comforting.
While they might hide their pain to "help us heal," it is important that we know that they do hurt. It shows that it wasn't a shrug, sweep it under the rug, and move on.
How where you reacting when you told WW lets eat here and when you got to the table?
Did you trigger WW?
Or was it just WW memories triggering?
What caused WW to trigger?
I was fine. Like I usually am. I might have inadvertently triggered her. I was asking in casual conversation and didn't notice any real change until we pulled in and sat down at the table. I think it was memories. She said later that she was so angry with herself.
Dude, let's be honest here. It does, sadly, feel great that they might be devastated. That the happy reminiscing about the addiction no longer exists, and thoughts about using are painful instead.
It's comforting.
While they might hide their pain to "help us heal," it is important that we know that they do hurt. It shows that it wasn't a shrug, sweep it under the rug, and move on.
Ok. Yeah. just a little bit. well.. maybe more than a little... Healing for us in a way?
Dude, let's be honest here. It does, sadly, feel great that they might be devastated. That the happy reminiscing about the addiction no longer exists, and thoughts about using are painful instead.
It's comforting.
While they might hide their pain to "help us heal," it is important that we know that they do hurt. It shows that it wasn't a shrug, sweep it under the rug, and move on.
Ok. Yeah. just a little bit. well.. maybe more than a little... Healing for us in a way?
Well, yeah.
Isn't that part of "seeing" remorse in action? Regret?
If you know, if you see, that those decisions which hurt you so bad, also hurt her... well, then you know that she "gets it."
If you know, if you see, that those decisions which hurt you so bad, also hurt her... well, then you know that she "gets it."
That's a comforting thing.
But at the same time, many things which feel good to you feel awful for your partner. For instance, after a cathartic angry outburst most people feel great! But their spouses and children usually feel terrible.
Be careful seeking out opportunities to make your spouse feel remorseful, particularly if she's with you when she does so. MarriageBuilders is a very Pavlovian approach, and if too often your spouse feels sad when you're arround, they'll begin to associate you with feeling sad.
If you know, if you see, that those decisions which hurt you so bad, also hurt her... well, then you know that she "gets it."
That's a comforting thing.
But at the same time, many things which feel good to you feel awful for your partner. For instance, after a cathartic angry outburst most people feel great! But their spouses and children usually feel terrible.
Be careful seeking out opportunities to make your spouse feel remorseful, particularly if she's with you when she does so. MarriageBuilders is a very Pavlovian approach, and if too often your spouse feels sad when you're around, they'll begin to associate you with feeling sad.
No quarrel there.
The point, however, is that seeing remorse etc from the FWS - which could quite easily be "seen" through Radical Honesty (specifically emotional honesty) - is something... centering.
As far as triggering?
I am an absolute believer and advocate for relocation. Haven't got it done myself yet, but everything right now is working towards permanent and distant relocation of our family.
If you know, if you see, that those decisions which hurt you so bad, also hurt her... well, then you know that she "gets it."
That's a comforting thing.
But at the same time, many things which feel good to you feel awful for your partner. For instance, after a cathartic angry outburst most people feel great! But their spouses and children usually feel terrible.
Be careful seeking out opportunities to make your spouse feel remorseful, particularly if she's with you when she does so. MarriageBuilders is a very Pavlovian approach, and if too often your spouse feels sad when you're around, they'll begin to associate you with feeling sad.
No quarrel there.
The point, however, is that seeing remorse etc from the FWS - which could quite easily be "seen" through Radical Honesty (specifically emotional honesty) - is something... centering.
As far as triggering?
I am an absolute believer and advocate for relocation. Haven't got it done myself yet, but everything right now is working towards permanent and distant relocation of our family.
Well, had we known about relocation 3 years ago, I'd have moved to Ireland. That might've been far enough away. As it stands, there aren't many triggers (if any) here in town, and OM1 & 2 left town. I have applied for jobs cross country and we'll see. The trigger spot in question is over half hour away where most of her last A took place and we rarely have reason to go by there unless it's for her eye (which also locks us here for another 10 months. But we are both hoping to move once the gets get their wings spread a bit... in the next year or so...
Y'mean you won't miss this place, CV? --smog (& now earthquakes) without palm trees? --tropical torrential downpours, without a beach in sight? --solid months of humidity so high it makes people's contact lenses slip off their corneas? We've probably got a dormant volcano around here somewhere just waiting to erupt...
Y'mean you won't miss this place, CV? --smog (& now earthquakes) without palm trees? --tropical torrential downpours, without a beach in sight? --solid months of humidity so high it makes people's contact lenses slip off their corneas? We've probably got a dormant volcano around here somewhere just waiting to erupt...
Lol.. you forgot mudslides and fires too! We actually get a few tornadoes in our neck of the woods!
Man we must be fairly close in proximity... I'm bout 30min s. of q-town...
It is an anniversary of sorts... It is the day 4 years ago that W and OM became an item (of sorts)... To top it off, we led a MB book discussion on HNHN. I thought I'd be triggered but I'm not.
When do you enter that final phase from recovery to recovered?
Let's say that restitution is being provided, but it is no longer required. It is continued because it is voluntary. forgiveness is finally offered by the BS.. Is that recovered?
I hope to be as grounded in my recovery as you are at your point post dday.
Im finding a woman working on her recovery from her A is special. If she is sincere and follows her husbands expectations and demands and allows her husband to meet her missing needs, then the marriage indeed can be great after everything.
There are dozens of things me and her are doing (non-SF stuff, mind you) we havent prior. We talk like never before. Eye to eye, no TV, no kids, just her and I talking about things I never had interest in. We walk all the time holding hands. We have gone on coffee dates to Starbucks, just to be alone. We make plans, committments, goals. All things we never really did.
CV, youve been a big help to me so Im glad you are in the place you are with your wife.
I hope to be as grounded in my recovery as you are at your point post dday.
Im finding a woman working on her recovery from her A is special. If she is sincere and follows her husbands expectations and demands and allows her husband to meet her missing needs, then the marriage indeed can be great after everything.
There are dozens of things me and her are doing (non-SF stuff, mind you) we havent prior. We talk like never before. Eye to eye, no TV, no kids, just her and I talking about things I never had interest in. We walk all the time holding hands. We have gone on coffee dates to Starbucks, just to be alone. We make plans, committments, goals. All things we never really did.
CV, youve been a big help to me so Im glad you are in the place you are with your wife.
Thanks. We find ourselves doing many of the same things (we actually have been doing them the last three years, but time is getting more difficult to manage since the kids are getting older).
I am still amazed at the depth of the change. In both of us. But you are right, the recovering FWW *IS* special... Maybe even more special than before. So many things we took for granted are now staring us in the face as opportunities. I never, ever, want to forget that.
I don�t know if the poster: Stunned-dad-fast recovering has been mentioned in this thread. He is very relevant to the topic of the thread title. His wife was a sexually abused when she grew up. Stunned-dad later left his profession to study to become a MC. He is a MB success story.
I don�t know if the poster: Stunned-dad-fast recovering has been mentioned in this thread. He is very relevant to the topic of the thread title. His wife was a sexually abused when she grew up. Stunned-dad later left his profession to study to become a MC. He is a MB success story.
Can I have a 2x4 or three? Ugh. My wife just texted me, because she was freaked out at work. Apparently they had a client that looks and acts so remarkably like OM that she panicked. The guy tried sitting at her desk, she asked him to move and he wouldn't so she had to move to another desk.
She texted me immediately, but I am responding like a dufus. She was O&H, but I was acting like a moron.
None of us are perfect, right?! I think it's hard to know you've caused a setback, even if it's just a little one. The only thing you can do is apologize and take a look at why you reacted the way you did. You're allowed to have feelings. Just getting familiar with your situation, but I would say you are!
Of course, it's important to learn from our mistakes. Perhaps you were triggered and instead of being O&H reciprocally you let your hurt take over for a bit. I try to hold off on responding to my H when I trigger over something - so I don't let my emotions take over the situation. In the past I usually responded in extremes: I was too emotional or I stuffed things and didn't deal with issues at all. Trying to find a new way to interact isn't always easy.
I hope your wife was understanding of your reaction and you were able to make her feel glad she spoke up about what was going on. I know how important that would be.
I just realized after reading another thread your wife is on MB too. That's awesome!
Forgive me - I'm somewhat new around here - learing who's who and what's what. I know you must be quite the vet! ALthough, vets need help and encouragement too at times, right?!
None of us are perfect, right?! I think it's hard to know you've caused a setback, even if it's just a little one. The only thing you can do is apologize and take a look at why you reacted the way you did. You're allowed to have feelings. Just getting familiar with your situation, but I would say you are!
Thanks sunny! I did apologize.
Of course, it's important to learn from our mistakes. Perhaps you were triggered and instead of being O&H reciprocally you let your hurt take over for a bit. I try to hold off on responding to my H when I trigger over something - so I don't let my emotions take over the situation. In the past I usually responded in extremes: I was too emotional or I stuffed things and didn't deal with issues at all. Trying to find a new way to interact isn't always easy.
I hope your wife was understanding of your reaction and you were able to make her feel glad she spoke up about what was going on. I know how important that would be.
She was. She was really good about it and I was really triggered. She is a great help getting through them now.
I just realized after reading another thread your wife is on MB too. That's awesome!
Forgive me - I'm somewhat new around here - learing who's who and what's what. I know you must be quite the vet! ALthough, vets need help and encouragement too at times, right?!
MB has helped us both a lot. I don't consider myself a vet, but a definite MB advocate. And yes. I have found we all need encouragement from time to time
Can I have a 2x4 or three? Ugh. My wife just texted me, because she was freaked out at work. Apparently they had a client that looks and acts so remarkably like OM that she panicked. The guy tried sitting at her desk, she asked him to move and he wouldn't so she had to move to another desk.
She texted me immediately, but I am responding like a dufus. She was O&H, but I was acting like a moron.
Ugh. Sometimes I hate myself.
CV
I know I am late to respond to this CV, but I think it is tottally normal for the man to want it all to go away, and when his W responds to such stimuli, for it to bother him or take him by surprize.
I know I am late to respond to this CV, but I think it is tottally normal for the man to want it all to go away, and when his W responds to such stimuli, for it to bother him or take him by surprize.
I'm hoping all is well now.
yeah, much better now, thanks. You know I know it in my head, but sometimes outside of cyber-land... you just kinda feel like you're the only one. thanks for the reminder.
Haven't posted much in a few days. I started a new job and it's been busy (but good), and we just had a family crisis (extended family). MB is saving the day there too!
and we just had a family crisis (extended family). MB is saving the day there too!
I hope everything's okay, CV!
oops! posted to the wrong thread!
Let me type the right stuff in here....
Long story short, my brother had a major flub 2 months ago. He was chatting with a girl in a gaming chat room and it ended with her sending pics. What he should have done was never given her an email address, but he did and then didn't tell his wife. This woman was having a PA on her husband with at least 2 other guys. It began and ended with the pics for my B, but the OWH found out about it all and called his house (from several states away). My B ended up telling his W and she was upset and moved out. He called for help and we are working through SAA with him and trying to get her to move home (expected this week). So far it is going well. they are talking, he is repentant and O&H and doing ALL the work.
Notes from an inexperienced Chili taster named FRANK, who was visiting Texas from the East Coast:
"Recently I was honored to be selected as a judge at a chili cook-off. The original person called in sick at the last moment, and I happened to be standing there at the judge's table asking directions to the beer wagon when the call came. I was assured by the other two judges (Native Texans) that the chili wouldn't be all that spicy, and besides, they told me I could have free beer during the tasting, so I accepted. Here are the scorecards from the event:
Chilli # 1: Mike's Maniac Mobster Monster Chili
JUDGE ONE: A little too heavy on tomato. Amusing kick. JUDGE TWO: Nice, smooth tomato flavor. Very mild. FRANK: Holy s&^$t, what the heck is this stuff? You could remove dried paint from your driveway. Took me two beers to put the flames out. I hope that's the worst one. These Texans are crazy.
Chilli # 2: Arthur's Afterburner Chili
JUDGE ONE: Smoky, with a hint of pork. Slight Jalapeno tang. JUDGE TWO: Exciting BBQ flavor, needs more peppers to be taken seriously. FRANK: Keep this out of reach of children! I'm not sure what I am supposed to taste besides pain. I had to wave off two people who wanted to give me the Heimlich maneuver. They had to rush in more beer when they saw the look on my face.
Chilli # 3: Fred's Famous Burn Down the Barn Chili
JUDGE ONE: Excellent firehouse chili! Great kick. Needs more beans. JUDGE TWO: A bean less chili, a bit salty, good use of red peppers. FRANK: Call the EPA, I've located a uranium spill. My nose feels like I have been snorting Drano. Everyone knows the routine by now, get me more beer before I ignite. Barmaid pounded me on the back, now my backbone is in the front part of my chest. I'm getting &^*$-faced from all the beer.
Chilli # 4: Bubba's Black Magic
JUDGE ONE: Black bean chili with almost no spice. Disappointing. JUDGE TWO: Hint of lime in the black beans. Good side dish for fish or other mild foods, not much of a chili. FRANK: I felt something scraping across my tongue, but was unable to taste it, is it possible to burn-out taste buds? Sally, the bar maid, was standing behind me with fresh refills, that 300 lb. woman is starting to look HOT, just like this nuclear-waste I'm eating. Is chilli an aphrodisiac?
Chilli # 5: Linda's Legal Lip Remover
JUDGE ONE: Meaty, strong chili. Cayenne peppers freshly ground, adding considerable kick. Very impressive. JUDGE TWO: Chili using shredded beef; could use more tomato. Must admit the cayenne peppers make a strong statement. FRANK: My ears are ringing, sweat is pouring off my forehead and I can no longer focus my eyes. I farted and four people behind me needed paramedics. The contestant seemed offended when I told her that her chili had given me brain damage. Sally saved my tongue from bleeding by pouring beer directly on it from a pitcher. I wonder if I'm burning my lips off? It really pisses me off that the other judges asked me to stop screaming. Screw those rednecks!
Chilli # 6: Vera's Very Vegetarian Variety
JUDGE ONE: Thin yet bold vegetarian variety chili. Good balance of spice and peppers. JUDGE TWO: The best yet. Aggressive use of peppers, onions, and garlic. Superb. FRANK: My intestines are now a straight pipe filled with gaseous, sulfuric flames. I pooped myself when I farted and I'm worried it will eat through the chair. No one seems inclined to stand behind me. Can't feel my lips anymore. I need to wipe my butt with a snow cone!
Chilli # 7: Susan's Screaming Sensation Chili
JUDGE ONE: A mediocre chili with too much reliance on canned peppers. JUDGE TWO: Ho Hum, tastes as if the chef literally threw in a can of chilli peppers at the last moment. I should note that I am worried about Judge Number 3. He appears to be in a bit of distress as he is cursing uncontrollably. FRANK: You could put a grenade in my mouth, pull the pin, and I wouldn't feel a darn thing. I've lost the sight in one eye, and the world sounds like it is made of rushing water. My shirt is covered with chili which slid unnoticed out of my mouth. My pants are full of lava-like poo to match my shirt. At least during the autopsy they'll know what killed me. I've decided to stop breathing, it's too painful. Screw it, I'm not getting any oxygen anyway. If I need air, I'll just suck it in through the 4 inch hole in my stomach.
Chilli # 8: Mount Saint Helen's Chili
JUDGE ONE: A perfect ending, this is a nice blend chili, safe for all, not too bold but spicy enough to declare its existence. JUDGE TWO: This final entry is a good, balanced chili, neither mild nor hot. Sorry to see that most of it was lost when Judge Number 3 passed out, fell over and pulled the chili pot down on top of himself. Not sure if he's going to make it. Poor Yank, wonder how he would have reacted to a really hot chili? FRANK: -------------- (editor's note: Judge #3 was unable to report)
Since I can't think of another place to put this than on my own thread, I will post this here... I have thought about this a lot over the last four years, intensely over the last three and change...
I thought I'd post about love and loving your spouse. Some here maintain that the BS doesn't love the spouse when they are in the A, but rather love the idea of what they thought the spouse was, or will be.
I have to say that this isn't always true. It may be for some, but not all.
I loved my wife while she was wayward. Were there things I did not like about her? Yes. Things that I hated about her? Yes. Did I hate *her*? No.
I have always loved my wife. In spite of how she treated me and others. Nothing she did changed that. Nothing she will possibly do in the future will change that.
I believe it is possible to love unconditionally. despite someone's sins, short-fallings and misgivings. This doesn't mean we have to be with them, it doesn't mean we tolerate actions that are hurtful or damaging. It means we make a choice about how we feel towards someone despite what they are/were/or are becoming...
I understand not everyone likes this idea, and not everyone feels this. That's not my point. My point is that it is possible to continue to love despite how we have been treated.
I think of 1Jn 4:19 "We love because he first loved us."
and
Rom 5:8 "but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
There is conditionality to love, it is faith and repentance here, but again...
Heb 12:2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
our faith finds it's origin in Christ. It is a gift given to us and is perfected by Christ's Spirit working in and through us. Likewise our repentance is as well. It is Christ who has given us a new heart and brought us to repentance.
Act 5:31 God exalted him (Christ) at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
Act 11:18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life."
2Ti 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
Even the ability to repent is granted from God and like faith, it is a gift from God.
So even the conditionality of faith and repentance is given by God. it is a provision made for us.
Despite how we have treated God, His rich mercy was granted to us in Jesus Christ, Our faith is His faith in that it is a gift granted to us and perfected in and through us by Him. So likewise is repentance.
Truly the conditionality of that love was met and accomplished by God for us. Because we (and we who believe were all waywards towards God)were lost... dead in our trespass and sins.
So is God's love conditional? Yes. But it is unconditional in the sense that he met the conditions for us. He fulfilled the conditions and met us while we were still sinners. He didn't wait for us to "get it right" before he loved us.
Can we love unconditionally? Yes in a similar way (we are image bearers of God after all), we too can choose to love unconditionally. It doesn't mean we let ourselves get walked over, it doesn't mean we acquiesce to a wayward's demands... We don't relax our boundaries. Sometimes that means in spite of the love we have for a spouse while theya re wayward, we turn them over to their sin, out of love we may "excommunicate them" from our fellowship... our lives... Not so they can be punished, but so their souls might be saved.
If God chastens those he loves, can we not chasten those we love as well?
It means that we choose to love them despite their sin. It means we hold out the laurel of forgiveness calling them to repent, to cease their sin and live according to the promise by which they were called.
Withholding love is a sin.
1Jn 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
God does not say "unless"... There is no qualifier in that regard.
real love is unconditional:
1Jn 4:10 In this is love, **not that we have loved God but that he loved us** and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
1Jn 4:20 If anyone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.
This is why Jesus calls us to love our enemies, and to pray for those who despitefully use us. Again, this is not based on our feelings, but on our decision to act. Just to reiterate, it doesn't mean we allow ourselves to be a doormat.
I believe this is in line with MB.
Can love fade? sure. Can it end? Sure. but that's not really the point. The point is our higher calling and what we *CAN* do...
We can actually love someone despite what they do to us. We can actually love them WHILE they are doing it and afterwards as well.
It is a philosophical question too...
We see our state of being (husband, wife, father, mother, personhood... WHAT we are and we try to understand it epistemologically. We ask ourselves WHAT do we know and how do we know it. We realize our state of being as a parent a spouse and such instinctively a lot of times and simply "be".
How we understand those roles, who we are is very different and MB challenges us to think these through... what Kind of spouse and I? What kind of parent am I? What kind of man or woman am I?
It challenges us to examine HOW to be a different kind of parent or spouse that we've been. It epistemologically informs us as to the basic principles of marriage.
It informs our ethics.. it fuels HOW we live in light of what we know.
Humanly speaking, MB is the best I've run across. It's no match for Scripture and can't hold a candle to it (I think Dr. Harley would agree). But it is a good interpretation of some scriptural principles (basic life and marriage principles) and is one of the best I've seen. It's worthy of examination and like I said.. humanly speaking, the best out there I've seen. It recovers marriages. Not a lot of other programs do that. But Jesus is my savior and not MB or any man... No matter how grateful I am for the help found here and the wisdom found in MB.
So... Can you love your spouse when they are wayward? Yeppers. Is it easy Nope. But that's not the point. Some of us did and do.
I'm sure this might rankle a few feathers.. I sure hope not. It's not a slam on MB... I'm on board with it. I approve. This is actually how I see MB.
Just an update on me, since I've been off-list for a while...
about a month or so ago I started a new job. It's a totally different line of work for me, something I've never ever done. It's hard, but fun. In the time I've been off-list, 2 family members on my side have been victims of affairs. We've been helping them deal as best we can when we have time. Add to that, I am still in grad school (just a few classes left!), my youngest is enlisted and leaving in June right after graduation so we are prepping for that as well. I also have picked up additional duties with our church and another. Needless to say, we have been busy, but the list and you guys are never far from my mind or prayers.
Just an update on me, since I've been off-list for a while...
about a month or so ago I started a new job. It's a totally different line of work for me, something I've never ever done. It's hard, but fun. In the time I've been off-list, 2 family members on my side have been victims of affairs. We've been helping them deal as best we can when we have time. Add to that, I am still in grad school (just a few classes left!), my youngest is enlisted and leaving in June right after graduation so we are prepping for that as well. I also have picked up additional duties with our church and another. Needless to say, we have been busy, but the list and you guys are never far from my mind or prayers.
CV
Wow with all that do you still maintain your UA time with your wife? If so how much do you get?
Just an update on me, since I've been off-list for a while...
about a month or so ago I started a new job. It's a totally different line of work for me, something I've never ever done. It's hard, but fun. In the time I've been off-list, 2 family members on my side have been victims of affairs. We've been helping them deal as best we can when we have time. Add to that, I am still in grad school (just a few classes left!), my youngest is enlisted and leaving in June right after graduation so we are prepping for that as well. I also have picked up additional duties with our church and another. Needless to say, we have been busy, but the list and you guys are never far from my mind or prayers.
CV
Wow with all that do you still maintain your UA time with your wife? If so how much do you get?
We are very careful about UA time. When I travel 2x a month for the other church, I almost always bring her along (about 3 hrs together in the car talking and such), we ride bikes together in the evenings walk or just talk, usually about 2 hours a night. She also takes the classes with me (she audits for free). We usually do more than our 15 hour minimum, but have to be careful not to get caught up in other things. Not to say we don't fall short some days depending on what's happening. UA time might be one of the most important elements of maintaining a healthy marriage, so we are careful with it.
YOUR ACTIONS toward the woman you have promised to love and who has apparently for the last few years been trying to show you love.
Are you happy with your wave below you in your way of thinking? Do you think she is happy although she may have accepted her status as a second class citizen? If you are punishing, she is second class right? 
Thanks.