P.S. he tried conversing with you about your 1.5 year old to try and ease some of his guilt. He MAY also be testing the waters to get some ENs met. Your best bet is to do what I suggested above so that he is fully aware that they ONLY reason you are not communicating with him is because it hurts you terribly.

Post what you are doing to ask the IM to send before you send it. In this case, I think it's ok for the IM to pass along your exact words.

yup.

Interesting. Doesn't him thinking of me over here in pain meet some kind of emotional need?

He really isn't aware of your pain. If he was, he would not be doing what he is doing.
It is all about his own feelings.
Your pain to him is so vague and he is not allowing himself to feel true empathy for you as the woman who you truly are.
You know that.

No, there is no EN for acknowledging your spouse's pain, LOL.

He has shoved your pain to the back of his mind. He doesn't like thinking about it. It causes tremendous guilt, so what does he do? He acts pissy towards you and hopes you will act pissy right back so that he can cover up the thoughts of your pain with a "see, I told you she was a b*tch".

This is why NC is best. He can't get to you and you can't fall into his trap of acting the way he wants you to act.

Exactly! What MF said

There is (and I agree) NO en that is met by acknowledging that you're in pain at all. In fact I don't think he is even at all FEELING or UNDERSTANDING your pain b/c a ws is in a totally different mindset and thought process because he's an addict.

Imho, when the ws actually goes so far and I mean SO SO FAR by abandoning their spouse and children and goes to actually live (aka shack up in the rutting lair) with the op/om, there is some SERIOUS SPIN that has to internally happen and a mental flip, if you will, for the ws to even buy their own b*llsh*t. You'd have to be higher than a kite to believe that it's ok to do that.

Thus, he will use ANY AND ANY REASON WHATSOEVER to paint Mehr in a bad light and will stop at nothing to get his own SELFISH SELFISH EN'S met by whatever means necessary. Imho, the FEELING OF admiration and the other other needs the op gives to the ws, is what perpetuates the addiction. While that happens, it also is important to know that the skanky op CANNOT MEET THE NEEDS regarding home, family, comfort, etc. And deep deep down somewhere, the ws longs for life BEFORE THEIR MORAL FALL, before the abandoned their home.

Even my xwh did this. He even felt that and he's one of the worst ws' I've ever heard of. Just unfortunately was my xwh. The Bible calls it and says "lies began lies". They've dug a little hole by starting the affair. Then to validate and make it ok to sleep around with the skanky op, they dig deeper, a larger hole. Eventually if the ws gets foggy enough and becomes super addicted to the main en's getting met, he'll dig a hole deep enough to get to china if he's/she's not stopped.

So one bad deed and lie will lead to a bigger bad deed and bigger lie. And so on. People wonder, how CAN they do these things to their families? Well its' easy when you have to justify your bad actions and choices and refuse at all to carry any blame or responsibility, and run around with an out of control "taker" in full control.

My friend here, a few years back, likened it to a drunk driver behind the wheel of a vehicle. Swerving left and right, speeding out of control, hitting and running over anything and anyone in their path, and that drunk driver WON'T stop sometimes until they hit a concrete wall. When a wayward gets THIS BAD, you have to either bring that wall TO THEM or divert them into it. They have to hit rock bottom themselves.

Sadly Mehr, go dark and quiet and forget about any innuendo or "hidden messages" from your wh. You will go totally fricken insane if you listen to every little teeny miniscule sound byte from him that might sound anything close to normal or close to what he used to say or say to you or feel about you. He's an alien hon. He's outta control. His drunken and high taker is at the wheel, and he's like that driver. YOU bring the wall to him, by making trouble in the affair. Make it hard. Make it difficult. Make being with the skank PAINFUL AND EXPENSIVE.

That's what I'd do. Bring the concrete wall TO him. And stay dark. You doing that is actually doing him a favor. We know that any affair doesn't usually last and their "run" or shelf life is rather short. Even affairages do not last. Seriously...you get two VERY DUMB takers out of control and a so called relationship built on lies and mistrust and gaslighting others and public and family disdain? Recipe for an affairage straight outta He-ll.

Stand tough. Get that emergency hearing. NO MERCY. BRING THE WALL TO HIM.

No you cannot withhold visitation because they withhold child support. They are considered separate issues in the court of law. To withhold visitation will look bad for you as it makes it look as if you are using the children as a pawn to get money. By the same token, for him to not pay the power bill when his children are living there will look very bad for him. So will his not paying child support as ordered. In Oregon they can imprison you and take away your driver's license for not paying support.

Actually, when my kids' dad and I divorced I was told I was required to notify him of anything medical or academic (all doctor's appts even though he wasn't taking them and they were teenagers, and I had to provide copies of report cards, etc.) I scanned/emailed them.

Ok I had the IM send that message. I was meaning it seems like... he gets to sit over there knowing that I hurt over him... I hate him being over there thinking he can have a jolly old time and come back when he's ready.... I guess there is no preventing that.

Just to note..In my state, i have full custody of my son. It is up to ME whatever kind of contact, IF he has contact with his dad, and if and only if and when under supervised visitation with my consent.

Getting sole custody is key. This is why I advocate ALWAYS getting a PI to investigate the wayward down to the nitty gritty and also the affair partner.

sometimes...some very unusual skeletons emerge from their skanky closet!

As for darkness and plan B, Mehr, when you quit allowing him entry into your world, or your mind, and you go dark, and you simply live your life wonderfully, believing each day is a blessing, HE WILL SOMEHOW get wind of that and that is imho, revenge. Simply living well.

When he finds out he has hurt you or he thinks you will wait longer, that's just giving the affair MORE energy. More time. Any contact between you two is like this. You see, when you fight against him, it gives HE AND THE SKANKYHO A REASON TO FORGE A BOND, in this case they are banded together against you. You MUST STAY DARK so that the bond can be broken in the skanky affair. You must make the affair so darn miserable, broke, and unhappy that they begin to turn on one another like people crash landed on a desert island with nothing to eat...cannibals!

Make them want to tear each other apart. You can do that and a good lawyer can certainly do that. Mine did

It is important to not leave any stone unturned. You're fighting for your family. Here's what my latest lawyer told me. He said, "well it's like this. You either get custody of your son, 100 percent, or you're dealing with this maniac for another decade or so or the rest of your life. He's always going to try to rain on your parade somehow, stick it to him NOW and then he will learn his place."

Also, if your ws decided the affair was not for him, and he becomes a de-fogged un-wayward one day, he will come crawling back on his hands and knees terribly embarassed of all of his evil and vile stunts. Respecting YOU and your stance, and you being beautiful and strong, the opposite of the wench, will help be like a distant beacon which might light the way home. Time will only tell if he goes further down the wayward path or if he comes home. YOu needn't worry about which path it is.

What counts is YOU get sole custody and good support for the kids and for you, and then let the wayward hubby sort his soul out in time. In the meanwhile, you are the mom of your kids, happy, and not scared always about $ as much. In plan B, the thoughts of the ws is not what counts right now. Your kids need their stable mom, food on the table, a roof over their heads, and clothes on their backs.

Your IL's are totally enabling your ws and I hope you get that now. In fact, they could be subpoenae'd too. Won't it look great to the court that they would not give their dil their wayward sons' address so she could get him served because he was not paying any cs or ss at all and starving them? They are accomplices to his crimes imho. I'd also wonder if the kids are around the ow at their home too. Makes me think they require a visit (secret) from a PI to find out.

I think there are alot of things going on Mehr. Cry at night when nobody is there, or vent here. But you be strong during the day, because your work is for getting the kids and a good settlement and making sure the affair has so much trouble coming its' way that they simply don't want to be IN it anymore. Reality and the stick of it, has a fun way of destroying affairs once the nitty gritty aspects are revealed.

I believe that. I really hope she is love busting. I pray for all kinds of conflict to enter their relationship and issues they have to deal with that bring out their bad sides.



I am praying for that wall of brokenness too. I think he's just starting to realize how much this is going to cost him. But of course I have no idea what else is happening. I will stay dark and quiet and just keep praying for the best preparing for the worst.

It doesn't work that way here at all. He will get visitation, even if he is a drug addict or low down criminal. (which he isn't) They believe here that fathers are Just That Important. I even have to take a parenting class to get the legal separation. Its probably going to be filled with garbage about working together with the other parent....


Yeah, that's what I was afraid of.



He's going to have to come crawling at this point. The standards have gone wayyyy up.

One thing I still haven't heard from you Mehr..is about the skeletons in the closet issue.

You see, the value of getting a PI right now and having them dig up some nasty bits of information on the OW and your WH (sure there are lots) are invaluable. YOu see, sometimes you can settle things like any separation agreement OUT of court. You can do this.

having some JUICY EVIDENCE which you intend and your lawyer intend to place before the court and God and the whole world, as part of a legal document anybody can access, is HARD NEGOTIATION POWER.

I think you should borrow some $ from your parents or friends and somehow get a PI. You'd be amazed what you would find out. I found out my xwh's new affairage wifey had a one time drug problem. It put heat on the affairage, and it also stopped her being ever alone with my child (even after their marriage) and it also pushed more custody my way (before I got sole). I also dug up more financial dirt on my x and how he was lying in his financial disclosure. We had a bit of negotiation power in the end. It was still not what he was worth (the settlement) but what he admitted to was ok. And he barely got my son that much after that. Plus, knowing his "perfect, soulmate affairage wifey" used to have a drug problem? Oh he did NOT KNOW ABOUT THAT!

You see, finding out really nasty bits about the affair partner, the one they wish to have around our children, can BACKFIRE. Especially if it is nasty stuff your PI finds out. Like she owes tens of thousands of dollars or she has a rap sheet with the police, or like the wistress, had a former drug problem, or say she has broken up several other marriages, or embezzled or something. I am sure where there is RAMPANT LYING and sneaking, there is more.

I'd have my PI work like a dog getting intel on the ow and on wh since things don't make sense about where he moved and why he refused to give his forwarding address after abandoning the family.

Then I'd get the PI to overnight or fax all documents and findings to the lawyer and tell them to play dirty.

You might get alot more going your way. Plus, if he finds out that his skanky mistress ACTUALLY IS a skanky mistress through certain findings, it causes terrible terrible problems with the affair and helps break it up too, while ALSO helping you win your court case. I mean, seriously, my xwh had no idea, the woman who he'd just married, who he'd carried on an illicit affair with, who had his baby almost out of wedlock with, had NEVER graduated from high school and had been a druggie before she was a model.

Oh he LOVED LOVED knowing about that!(giggle). And she was never allowed to ever be really alone around my child if he was over there. Plus I forwarded the info to her x fiancee (who she cheated on with my xh) and he got FULL CUSTODY of their son whom they had together.

Are there any free public record websites online?

Also, where is this intermediary "manual" that someone mentioned?

I am having trouble with changing the cell phone because I love to text message people and i would miss that oh so much.... .... I know, right? But since he's been reminded and he responded okay to the IM, maybe I will just leave it as is unless he does it again....

I'm kind of curious about the history of success/failure of Plan B, too. It seems like there are two opinions on the goal of Plan B. One is that the goal of Plan B is personal recovery. I totally get that and it seems to be a good way to achieve that. However, with all the focus on exposure, etc, the second goal of Plan B seems to be to get the WS back home. And I'm wondering how effective Plan B really is at the second goal, statistically.

Regardless, Plan B is still good. Because even if goal #2 isn't achieved, then it's all the more important to Plan B for goal #1. But I am still curious.

Dr. H has been a relationship counselor for years and he advocates plan b when anything else is only going to further destroy the remaining LB.

There are no other plans out there that are "better".
In fact, many "plans" seem to be watered down MB ideas.

There are other forums, but I think by far MB is the most well thought out option.
If there is a better option out there, I have not read about it.

No one can make a WS come home.

Ahhh.... I wrote that two months ago.... alas for back when I was in Plan A....

Anyway.

I have decided to garage sale all of the baby stuff. If WH comes back, he's getting a vasectomy. If I want to have a baby with a different husband someday, I wouldn't want to use the same stuff I think it would be "triggering."