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You can also download a conversation recorder for most cell phones now. I would record all conversations if possible just in case.
Download it to your phone and hit record anytime you talk to her. As long as one party knows they are being recorded (you)it is legal in most states.

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Ray, I am one of Mel's past charges, and she helped me through the same thing. My wife wife was MAD - still is sometimes.

You hang on you are doing the right thing for the right reasons. If she gets mad, offer her the proverbial chip. Don't you dare apologize or back down, even if she walks. You are on the right road.

Can't talk now gotta go back to work. i will check in asap and as regularly as I can.

You can do this! It really works!

Mel - sorry just got your message.


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Thanks Reynolds!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Thank you so much all!!

She has left our home and is staying at a motel at the present time. Which is probably best at the moment because she is fighting mad. She has been threatening to respond to all the messages she has been getting by telling them all the stupid, hurtful things I did to her during our marriage. I told her if she thought it would help our situation to go ahead and do it. I am not afraid of accepting responsibility for my actions. I have also heard that I will be lucky if I ever see her again and that I went across the line by telling the kids and friends and family about this.

My fathers email to her seems to have her attention. She admitted today that he has more influence on her than anyone. Most everyone sent her a message today. I am getting more support than I could hope for.

She mentioned about meeting to talk tomorrow when she is not so mad. This evening, she tried to drag me back into the same argument we always end up in, but I ended our talk with a simple "OK" and quit responding.

I can't thank you all enough for preparing me for this. Knowledge of how she would react is what has kept me together so far. She is doing exactly what you all described.


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Originally Posted by Raysofhope
I can't thank you all enough for preparing me for this. Knowledge of how she would react is what has kept me together so far. She is doing exactly what you all described.

You did great, Ray!! You took back control of your life. When you meet with her tomorrow, I would give her some conditions for her return. What I expect for her to do is to TRY and turn this back and go back to the current situation where she has her needs met in 2 places. You need to let her know that those days are done and you won't live like that anymore. Let her know you will only take her back if she ends all contact for life and commits to a program of recovery. See, she still believes she can manipulate you into allowing her to continue her affair.

Explain to her that you want to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and that you are not willing to stay in a loveless marriage while she has an affair. Tell her you are willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness. In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take to keep you interested:

1. no more nights apart or going out without each other - create a healthy, integrated lifestyle

2. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc

3. no more opposite sex friendships

4. complete honesty about her affair � passing a polygraph if necessary

5. commit to a program of recovery that restores the romantic love in your marriage

Tell her "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage." Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on her willingness and ability to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. She must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now he has failed. Unless she makes a 180 degree turn in his approach to what it means to be a wife, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage.



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by Raysofhope
She has been threatening to respond to all the messages she has been getting by telling them all the stupid, hurtful things I did to her during our marriage. I told her if she thought it would help our situation to go ahead and do it. I am not afraid of accepting responsibility for my actions.

You handled this threat beautifully, Sir! smile


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Great job Ray, now don't blink. Take the list Mel gave you and hand it to her - reprint first of course:)

Don't tell her about us for LONG time. Don't apologize no matter what. Shes gonna do the whole song and dance for weeks to come. Do not back down.

Own your mistakes in the marriage past and future. Let her own the affair.

Leadership and confidence are king. No retreat and not a waiver in your stride. She wants to split - you paint a picture of how horrible divorce will be.

BTW now the hard work starts. Good luck


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WOW what a ride this is!!!! My wife asked me to stop at the hotel she is staying at for a talk today. When I got there she had bought me some new clothes (I work construction so I am dirty everyday)and offered to take me out to dinner. It was not what I was expecting. We talked briefly about the exposure. She said at first she was leaving me, that I embarrassed her and humiliated her beyond belief. I told her that I knew the potential would be there that she would leave and I was sorry she felt humiliated, but this was my "all in moment". I was willing to accept the outcome, but I was not going back to the way our life was before. I was not going to live in a loveless marriage full of disrespect and pain. I didn't ask her if she was going to end the affair, but instead I let it be known that I needed to know soon so I could plan my life. She briefly commented on how I ruined the marriage, but I stopped her by saying that right now we needed to focus on the affair.

She was especially interested in my personal counseling appointment I had today. I am working with a counselor on my personal issues,mainly my alcoholism and addictive personality. I like who I have become in the last few months and I don't want to go back to where I was. I will be working towards making all my changes permanent.

All in all it was a weird, but pleasant evening.


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Originally Posted by Raysofhope
I was willing to accept the outcome, but I was not going back to the way our life was before. I was not going to live in a loveless marriage full of disrespect and pain. I didn't ask her if she was going to end the affair, but instead I let it be known that I needed to know soon so I could plan my life. She briefly commented on how I ruined the marriage, but I stopped her by saying that right now we needed to focus on the affair.

Great job, Ray!! Now move in for the kill. Tell her that she must end the affair if this is to go forward. Let her know that this will go to divorce if she doesn't the affair. You need to DEMAND this, Ray. If you don't, you give her the impression that you are complacent and don't care very much. You don't want to give her the impression you will wait because she will then wait it out and enjoy BOTH of you meeting her needs.

I would not let up on finding the OMW. Keep the pressure up, Ray, until the affair is DEAD.

How long since your last drink?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by Raysofhope
When I got there she had bought me some new clothes (I work construction so I am dirty everyday)and offered to take me out to dinner. It was not what I was expecting.

Curious. Looks like she's buttering you up for something, IMO.


Originally Posted by Raysofhope
We talked briefly about the exposure. She said at first she was leaving me, that I embarrassed her and humiliated her beyond belief.

You responded well, but I'd suggest that whenever she brings the subject of exposure up, make sure and point out that it was her choice to have an A to led to her humiliation. If there was no A, there would be nothing to expose, and no potential for humiliation.



Originally Posted by Raysofhope
She was especially interested in my personal counseling appointment I had today.

That's not surprising - she still sees everything as being YOUR fault, cause by YOUR problems, and asking about your counseling is likely her way of reinforcing this view. Concerning that question, if I was in your shoes, I would have responded that what went on in IC was personal to me and I feel uncomfortable sharing my experience with someone I don't trust.

You must ensure at ALL times that you don't fall for her attempts to deflect blame away from her choice to engage in an A.



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Mel, it's been 2 months since my last drink.

Well some good news...bad news. She changed her cell number and told the OM she would not be contacting him anymore. She said I have one shot. I hurt her again and she is done.

Today she is back in the anger phase over the exposure and my contributions to the state of our marriage. She is especially upset that I used the word Affair in my message, instead of Emotional Affair. She says people are thinking she had a physical affair. She spammed my facebook wall today after she snooped in my account and found a message of support my ex wife sent me. Apparently my kids told my Ex of the affair. My wife has always believed my ex has influenced our marriage and tried to say if talking to someone of the opposite sex is having an affair, I was having an affair because I talk to her.

MIM...she is using my past addictions as justification for her affair.

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Did you read this? This post describes the approach you should take.

Quote
You took back control of your life. When you meet with her tomorrow, I would give her some conditions for her return. What I expect for her to do is to TRY and turn this back and go back to the current situation where she has her needs met in 2 places. You need to let her know that those days are done and you won't live like that anymore. Let her know you will only take her back if she ends all contact for life and commits to a program of recovery. See, she still believes she can manipulate you into allowing her to continue her affair.

Explain to her that you want to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and that you are not willing to stay in a loveless marriage while she has an affair. Tell her you are willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness. In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take to keep you interested:

1. no more nights apart or going out without each other - create a healthy, integrated lifestyle

2. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc

3. no more opposite sex friendships

4. complete honesty about her affair � passing a polygraph if necessary

5. commit to a program of recovery that restores the romantic love in your marriage

Tell her "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage." Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on her willingness and ability to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. She must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now he has failed. Unless she makes a 180 degree turn in his approach to what it means to be a wife, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Step ONE is ending the affair. That is just the START. Don't stop there, Ray. Drive this home. Tell her what your conditions are. If she won't fully commit to recovery she is wasting your time.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Step ONE is ending the affair. That is just the START. Don't stop there, Ray. Drive this home. Tell her what your conditions are. If she won't fully commit to recovery she is wasting your time.

ITA 1000%


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Yes Mel, I have read it and I am creating my own conditions. We have marriage counseling this week. I want to present my conditions during that session. Since exposure, she is impossible to communicate with on a rational level.

Watching your wife go through withdrawals over another man is not fun. Any thoughts on how to best move through this state, for her and me?

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Originally Posted by Raysofhope
Yes Mel, I have read it and I am creating my own conditions. We have marriage counseling this week. I want to present my conditions during that session. Since exposure, she is impossible to communicate with on a rational level.

Ray, she is still angry that you ruined her affair but that is to be expected. It does blow over.

That is very troubling that you are going to a marriage counselor, though. Marriage counselors are destructive to marriages and don't have the slightest idea how to save marriages. The absolute worst thing for your marriage right now would be to sit in a room with your wife - while in a state of conflict - and lovebust each other. You will leave worse off than when you went in. Marriage counselors have an 84% failure rate and have a higher personal divorce rate than the general population. Did you know that?

Before you go to a MC, I would ask a few things:

1. do you counsel couples in conflict together? [a dreadful idea that will actually harm your marriage]

2. what is your success rate of saving marriages?

3. do you believe it is possible to restore romantic love to a marriage?

4. are you familiar with Marriage Builders concepts?

5. What is your plan to save my marriage?

The reason Dr Harley developed Marriage Builders is because when he was a marriage counselor using traditional training, he saved no marriages. And neither did anyone else in his clinic. He was astonished at how ineffective it was and couldn't imagine they could take peoples money for it. The reason is because most MC focus on "communication" rather than restoring romantic love. But even couples who learned to be great communicators still got divorced. Couples who were in love did not get divorced.

I would be real careful about marriage counseling if i were you. Your marriage is at a very critical juncture and you need someone who knows how to save marriages, not some divorce facilitator who gives you some of the typical bad advice we see reported on this forum. What will you do if the "counselor" recommends a "trial separation" or tells you and your wife that contact with her lover is perfectly fine? Then you are screwed.

Please be very careful, Ray. It would be tragic to get this far and to lose it because of a counselor.

Check this out: How Dr. Harley Learned to Save Marriages


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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And check out this excerpt from When we Have a Problem

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders
I give you this advice because I want you and your spouse to be in love with each other, and I'm sure that you want that, too. But most marital therapists disagree with me on this issue. Because their advice is so pervasive, and so destructive to the love of couples that follow it, I use whatever opportunity I have to defend this crucial position.

The difference between my approach to saving marriages, and the approach of most other therapists, is that I focus on building romantic love (being "in love") between spouses, rather than simply focusing on conflict resolution. As it turns out, I also address conflict resolution, but I do it in a way that builds love between spouses.

Since most marital therapists fail to address the romantic love issue when they try to help couples, their approach to conflict resolution usually fails to build love, and as a result, the couples divorce, even after "resolving" some of their conflicts.


An example of this current effort to "resolve" marital conflicts is found in a book by Jacobson and Christensen, Integrative Couples Therapy (Norton, 1996). In this training manual for marital therapists, couples are to be encouraged by their therapists to lower their marital expectations by becoming more understanding of each other's dysfunctional background. Irreparable wounds inflicted during childhood should inspire empathy toward a thoughtless spouse, not disappointment. Awareness of each other's limitations should lead to acceptance of each other's behavior and a willingness to meet one's own needs, instead of expecting each other to meet those needs. The suggested goal of therapy is to teach each spouse to make themselves happy, and not look to each other for their happiness. While this approach to therapy may resolve a couple's conflict, it most certainly will not lead to love. When couples follow this advice, few love units are deposited and many are withdrawn. In the end, the couple is likely to divorce.

The same sort of advice is given in Getting the Love You Want by Hendrix (Holt Rinehart, & Winston, 1988). While the book title seems to address the issue of romantic love in marriage, the author's strategy for couples is to learn to accept each other's marital failures, rather than doing anything to overcome them. I guarantee you, if you follow this strategy, you will NOT get the love you want.

My experience, and the experience of a few others who are carefully studying what it takes for a couple to be satisfied with their marriage, proves the opposite of what is currently being popularly recommended. Instead of spouses trying to lower their expectations, I believe that they should raise them. Instead of spouses learning to meet their own emotional needs, I believe that they should expect to have them met by each other, and met in a professional manner. Why? Because that's what it takes for a couple to be in love and stay in love. Furthermore, couples should not waste their time trying to "understand" each other's failures, but rather, they should try to overcome them as quickly as possible so the issue does not have time to drain their Love Banks.

In a great, but mind-numbing, article entitled "The Mathematics of Marital Conflict: Dynamic Mathematical Nonlinear Modeling of Newlywed Marital Interaction" (Gottman, Swanson and Murray. J. of Family Psychology, 1999, Vol. 13, No.1, 3-19), the authors provide evidence that couples should not "let things ride and have a chance to build up" (p. 17). Instead, couples should address any conflict as soon as it arises, and resolve it quickly. The authors indicate that the biblical principle from Ephesians (4:26), may be helpful in marriage, "Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry."

In this study, newlyweds who divorced within 6 years were compared with those who remained married during those years. It was found that the divorced couples tended not to respond to each other's complaints as quickly as those who remained married. These divorced couples ignored each other's complaints until they became intensely negative. Those who remained married, on the other hand, went to work addressing each other's complaints soon after they were mentioned, not giving the complaint a chance to build up.

My experience with couples agrees with the results of this study. In successful marriages, spouses expect to change to accommodate each other's needs, so when a spouse registers a complaint, it's a signal for action. In failed marriages, on the other hand, spouses expect to be accepted as they are, without change. A complaint is interpreted as an unwillingness to love unconditionally, a failure of the complaining spouse. So instead of adjusting to the complaint, the defense is offered, "if you really loved me, you would not try to change me. You would let me continue to do whatever it is I'm doing."


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Ray,

My input here would be that your WW is angry over the conditions in the marriage, and you have posted here that you accept your share of the blame.

Her response to being angry with you was to have an affair, to talk with another man about the personal issues that she should have talked with you about.


I was interested that she said YOU have one more chance not to hurt her.


This should tell you that she is feeling very defensive at this point, as she is trying to place you into the driver's seat for recovery of the marriage. She does not want to accept any blame, which is typical of waywards. In her case, she also appears to want you to make the first move in "fixing" the mess she has created.

From a communicative and logical standpoint, I would say you are in a good position to recover the marriage, based on what your WW is doing and saying.

The initial reaction of hers was to be angry over exposure. Typical. Then, she comes back and "gives YOU" a last chance. Also typical. She blames her behavior on you. Typical typical.

In your dealings with her, you also have the facts that she admits that her contact with OM was wrong, and she also has herself titled this relationship an EA.

To "help" her through, you can use all of these things in your own favor.

1. Tell her that you are hurt by the fact that she went outside the marriage to find support for marital issues. You may wish to tell her that you understand that the state of the marriage at the time she DECIDED to have her affair was probably not conducive to her coming to you about the issues - but her choice to go outside the marriage was her choice, and that you cannot be blamed for her choices.

2. Let her know that you do see your responsibility in how the marriage came to be in the state it was in immediately prior to her EA. This will let her know that you DO see your contributions to the marriage. HOWEVER, emphasize again that the choice to "solve" the problem with an EA was hers and hers alone. Accept blame for your contributions, and emphasize to her that the "blame" for the affair is 100% hers.

3. She has offered you a "chance". What this means to her is that she does want to save the marriage, but given the history you have offered here she is a bit gun-shy about your commitment to changes in your behavior. You need to have some concrete ways to show her your changes. For example, you can offer her the daily count of sobriety as one true change. Another thing you can say is that you are studying methods by which to form a stronger marriage, one that requires work from BOTH spouses and can result in a true reformation of a marriage when the concepts are used. Meanwhile, don't send her here, but practice POJA, O&H, and meet her top five emotional needs.

4. Finally, continue to stand firmly and make the demands you are making. The reason I tell you this is because your strength is something she is looking for, and she has virtually asked you to lead her out of this mess. So LEAD. Tell her what you plan to do: that you plan to understand her emotional needs, talk openly and honestly about everything with her, and to make the changes you need in order for the marriage to work. Then, tell her that if she wants a marriage that reflects love, honesty, and a much better relationship, she can FOLLOW you there.

Your strength as a man is what she wants from you. Her responses so far are saying "I want to see you FIGHT FOR ME."

So, gloves are on. Fight using the MB concepts, and you have a much better chance of winning.


SB



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Mel,

I was concerned about MC after reading the articles here. Our first session, I made it clear that I was there to restore the love in our marriage first and foremost. My wife already knows how I feel about separation. How can I prove to her that the changes I have made are real if she can't see me at my worst. Separation would be counter productive to what she wants from me and what I need to do, earn back her trust. In addition, I have already made my condition of no contact between my wife and the OM in the counseling. This week I am going to present my conditions, which is a program our counselor promotes. I also am going to ask for his plan concerning restoring our romantic love.

Schoolbus,

I had to look around the room to see if you were standing behind me. You have a very good grasp of our situation. Thank you for your input.

I will be gone for the next few days and will post an update later this week. Thanks again all!!

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Well Mel, you were right in your assessment of MC. Our counselor sort of threw me under the bus at our last session. He would had advised that I not include family and friends in the affair issue. The affair should had been handled between my wife and I. He feels that these things usually disappear after time. He did say that he felt the affair would be a road block in our recovery....really? I paid how much to hear this? I told him I did try to work it out with my wife and she made it very clear she was not going to break it off. I asked him what was I to do, sit back and deal with it in my face 24/7? I did that for a month, the pain became to great and I took control of my life. His only response was , "yes, that would be difficult." All I know is without exposure my wife's affair was heading deeper and our love would be dying. I still believe in exposure and would do it again in a heart beat.

On a good note, my wife and I have started to talk about what it is going to take for her to feel comfortable with my daughter again. Which is very positive in my eyes because the issue has been at a stalemate for sometime. My daughter has been taking care of her business to become a young woman, I am very proud of the maturity she is developing. She realizes that she can not control my wife's resentment or anger. All she can do is keep working towards being the person she wants to be.

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