Hello all,
I posted here almost 10 years ago during the end of my first marriage 2001. As I look back, I did nothing right. My plan A was flawed and to be honest I didn't want the marriage to work. Fast forward to today, my 2nd marriage is in trouble. My wife of 6 years, together for 8 years, emotionally left our marriage a few months ago. She is 38, I'm 41. We have a blended family that proved to be more difficult to make work than I ever thought. My 15 year old daughter and wife can not co-exist under the same roof. Unfortunately I did not accept this fact until only a few months ago. The relationship between my wife and daughter breaks my heart. They want nothing to do with each other. During the last few years, I would drink to escape the pain I felt over the situation, not all the time but enough to be a problem. My wife was trying to tell me she was building walls to protect her heart, but communication is not our strong point. She would make demands and judgmental statements and I would withdraw and continue to look for a solution that did not exist.
Early April my wife went into complete withdrawal. As is the case most of the time, this was my wake up call. I started to realize all the pain I had been causing my wife...by "hoping" for a solution to her and my daughters relationship, I was not "listening" to her. I remembered Marriage Builders at this time and immediately started to eliminate my love busters. I quit drinking completely, changed my parenting location with my daughter to outside of our home and started my plan A. Our marriage was good 90% of the time and we have a strong base to rebuild from, but my wife is very scared to be hurt by me again. In addition my wife developed and emotional attachment to a male friend from Facebook. I saw the signs a month ago and finally got proof 2 weeks ago. Thousands of text messages and phone calls. She admitted to being attached to him emotionally and said if he was closer they would of probably met up, he lives across the state. I am 99% sure it is not a PA yet. I have asked for no-contact between them but as of this writing they're contact is stronger than ever. I am doing very well with my plan A so far. The stress levels in our home are almost non-existent. We are getting along very well,but there is still an emotional distance on her part. Since this is my second affair I am dealing with, I like to think I am battle tested.
My wife and I have improved our communication over the past few weeks and are following the radical honesty policy. She doesn't hide the affair anymore, but she doesn't want to give him up either at this time. We have started marriage counseling, but at this time I am in limbo, waiting for my wife to commit physically and emotionally to rebuilding our marriage. I love her with all my heart and want to spend the rest of my life with her. We did everything together and I consider her my best friend.
Sorry for the ramble, but I was hoping for some emotional support and advice from the forum.
Have you exposed the affaor to anyone? Do you know anything about the carrot and stick of Plan A? If you click on the newly BS link in my siggy, you will find a thread that helps guide you through this site. I don't know how much of it you remember, or how much has changed but it might help you and when you know what we are advising you to do.
Wlcome back. And I am sorry that you find yourself here once again
Were you divorced from your first wife when your current wife and you got together?
Sorry you are here. You definitely have to expose. Make a list of everyone you know, she knows, the OM knows and expose to everyone.
CV
Scotty, Yes I was divorced from my first wife for 2 years before I met my current wife. Thank you for the links. the carrot and stick thread is a classic. My plan A is based of it.
Celtic, I guess exposure is what brought me back here. Don't know much about the other man, just his FB page and business.
Scotty, Yes I was divorced from my first wife for 2 years before I met my current wife. Thank you for the links. the carrot and stick thread is a classic. My plan A is based of it.
Celtic, I guess exposure is what brought me back here. Don't know much about the other man, just his FB page and business.
Raysofhope,
You can expose him on facebook. Expose to all his friends there. If you aren't friends with him, here's an idea...
Create a FB page under a female name. Request him as a friend. Most of these types of guys will add a girl to their friends list I think. Once he adds you as a friend, expose through that.
Ray, the biggest problem I see here is that you are essentially enabling the affair. The affair is very unlikely to end unless you start taking some steps to break it up. You say you are in Plan A but I see no sign of that at all. Plan A does not involve enabling. Your complacence only looks like you don't care very much.
So, if you are interested in saving your marriage, you should kill the affair. Start by demanding that she end it along with exposing the affair to everyone. Expose to her family, yours, the OM's. Confront the OM, cancel your internet. Do whatever you have to do to bust up this affair. But the worst thing you can do is sit by idly and do nothing. That just looks like you don't care.
Is this loser married? Who is the OM?
I am doing very well with my plan A so far. The stress levels in our home are almost non-existent. We are getting along very well,but there is still an emotional distance on her part. Since this is my second affair I am dealing with, I like to think I am battle tested.
The stress levels are low because you are enabling her affair while the Titanic sinks. While she gets closer and the OM and her affair becomes more and more entrenched, your marriage grows further apart.
changed my parenting location with my daughter to outside of our home
Your 15 year old daughter is outside your home, but your openly cheating wife is allowed to remain?
You threw a 15 year old out, and are keeping an unfaithful wife?
How is your daughter doing?
She must feel pretty rejected by her father.
Poor girl.
Your messed up marriage, and your drinking, is somehow the fault of your 15 year old?
Really?
I'm sort of amazed that you say this:
My wife and I have improved our communication over the past few weeks and are following the radical honesty policy. She doesn't hide the affair anymore, but she doesn't want to give him up either at this time. We have started marriage counseling, but at this time I am in limbo, waiting for my wife to commit physically and emotionally to rebuilding our marriage. I love her with all my heart and want to spend the rest of my life with her. We did everything together and I consider her my best friend.
..... and not one word from you about how this is messing with your 15 year old.
Does your adulterous, unfaithful, cheating wife have her children living under your roof?
Your thread title:
Sorry, I just cannot.
Here is what you have taught your vulnerable 15 year old:
You will tolerate an IN YOUR FACE ADULTERY in your own home, but will not support your own struggling-to-fit-in teenage daughter.
You threw your child under the bus to appease an adulteress.Word!
What Pepperband said.
Did you meet your current wife while still married to the 15-yo's mother? Is that why your daughter despises your current wife?
What Pepperband said ALSO.
YOUR KIDS ARE FOREVER DUDE.
The only one who might should be "out" is the wayward wife.
And yes, answer the question. DOES YOUR DAUGHTER hate your current W because SHE WAS THE OW? Did you meet the wayward wifey when you were married?
You cannot enable any affair. But throwing out a 15 year old CHILD is beyond words to me. I cannot think of it as the mom of an almost 13 year old. My commitment to be a good parent to my child is one of my top two committments.
Having dealt with a wayward myself, I'd say that the kid ALWAYS stays, wayward can go if they wish.
Get your priorities STRAIGHT NOW.
Thank you all or the honest replies.
I need to clarify the assumption that I threw my daughter under the bus and blame her for the condition of my marriage. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I met my current wife after my divorce. There was no other women. My daughter started to have issues with my wife on our wedding day. She felt that my wife was taking her Dad from her. My wife went above and beyond to establish a solid relationship with my daughter. My wife withstood countless disrespectful actions from my daughter until she finally quit trying and shut my daughter out. We went to counseling...still are...tried different parenting tactics but nothing worked. The atmosphere in our home became toxic for everyone involved. My wife believes my ex was sabotaging her relationship with my daughter the entire time. To be honest, I wouldn't put past my ex. I have kept my current parenting schedule of 2 days a week and every other weekend with my kids, but I spend it outside the home. I do this to protect my daughter from my wife's anger and to protect my wife from the pain she has been subjected to from my daughter. I had to stop the destructive cycle we were in..period. My daughter at first felt like I was blaming her for my marriage, but after many talks she realized she was outside our home because of her actions, not my marriage. We are slowly adjusting to the new parenting time and looking for ways to improve it. Hopefully in time we can start working our way back to where we should be, but for now everyone needs to quit hurting each other and breathe.
My drinking was my fault and my fault only. I drank to cover up the pain of losing my "dream" of having a whole family. I felt like I was being forced to choose between my wife and daughter. For those who say kids are forever, I disagree. You raise kids to be independent and live a life of there own. Your spouse is the one who is going to grow old with you.
I have told my parents about my wife's EA, but she doesn't know about it. I have been very clear with her that if we are ever going to rebuild our marriage that she MUST have no-contact with him. Exposure at this time would without a doubt make her leave for good. She has a lot of anger towards me right now, much of it justified. She has noticed the changes for the positive I have made, but always says she is waiting for everything to go back the way they were. She has told me that she still loves me and wants to work on the marriage, but she is afraid of being hurt again. She put up with a lot from me, I feel I owe her some time to see the changes for herself. We have a get away trip planned at the beginning of July that she seems very excited about. I was going to use this trip as a sort of D day for exposure. If she is still in contact with him during our trip, I am pulling out the big guns and will expose her affair. Like I said, that WAS my plan. I have a voice in my head saying do it now. We have made progress. We communicate our feelings and emotions better than we ever have. We spend most of our time together and enjoy each others company, but he is always there either texting or calling. I know his name and his cell number and from what I can tell he is a very successful business man. He is going through a divorce, which gave the something in common.
I have accepted responsibility for my contributions to the state of marriage and eliminated the habits and behaviors that were causing her pain.I feel good as a person and for the first time in a long time I feel like I am heading in the right direction.
I look forward to your replies.
Without exposure, things will go back to the way they were. Actually, they may get even worse. EXPOSE.
Exposure at this time would without a doubt make her leave for good.
In other words, you can only keep her around if you enable the affair by keeping it a secret? You have already lost her if that is the case. Your lack of action has led to the demise of your marriage and you are headed to divorce now. Your marriage can survive her temporary anger over exposure but it can't survive an affair. The longer this is allowed to go on, the more entrenched it becomes and the less likely you will be able to save it.
Your complacence reflects a lack of caring, Ray. It says to your wife that you really don't care very much. That is sure how it appears to me.
By keeping her affair a secret, you are fueling the affair because affairs thrive on secrecy. Dr Harley, the founder of Marriage Builders, would call you an "enabler" and explain that is very hard to save a marriage when you become an enabler. Your complacence is the most likely to end in divorce.
Your strategy is the most likely to lead to divorce, when exposure could have easily saved your marriage. Below are some other betrayed husbands who called Dr Harley for advice. They are now getting divorced because they took a complacent, I don't give a damn approach like you are doing.
Here are some of those radio clips: This caller's wife has been in a 2 year affair and the man never exposed. He has kept it a secret the whole time and she is now leaving him for the OM.
Part 11 - "It's very difficult to overcome an affair when you become an enabler." Dr Harley telling BTintrouble to "expose the heck out of this affair" and do not offer forgiveness.
hereInteresting call from a BH who did nothing to save his marriage and has greatly diminished his chances of recovery:
Part 1 Part 11
"Exposure is very likely to end the affair, lifting the fog that has overcome the unfaithful spouse, helping him or her become truly repentant and willing to put energy and effort into a full marital recovery. In my experience with thousands of couples who struggle with the fallout of infidelity, exposure has been the single most important first step toward recovery. It not only helps end the affair, but it also provides support to the betrayed spouse, giving him or her stamina to hold out for ultimate recovery."
Exposure at this time would without a doubt make her leave for good.
Why?
Because I don't believe I have made enough love bank deposits yet.
Because I don't believe I have made enough love bank deposits yet.
WHAT???? You think YOU have to accomplish a goal??
Because I don't believe I have made enough love bank deposits yet.
Ray, if she is in an affair, you won't be able to make love bank deposits until the affair is killed. This is why Dr Harley recommends exposure and not tolerating the OM. All the lovebank deposits in the world will avail you nothing until you have killed the affair.
The message you are sending right now by your complacence is that you don't care very much. She needs to see you fight for your marriage. That is what it will take to save your marriage. Enabling will destroy your marriage.
If you want to save this, you will need to expose the affair and run off the OM.
I am a bit confused. I thought exposure was used in plan B after a period of plan A?
I am a bit confused. I thought exposure was used in plan B after a period of plan A?
No, exposure should be done immediately and is the
basis of Plan A.
When Should An Affair Be Exposed?
By Dr. Willard F. Harley, Jr.
10.28.09
This week, again I�ll be taking a question from the Forum to help clear up a conflict regarding one of my common recommendations about when to expose an affair. The issue of exposure comes up when a betrayed spouse has first learned about the affair. Should it be exposed to others, or kept secret? I generally recommend exposure. When should it be exposed? I usually recommend that it be exposed immediately. To whom should it be exposed? I recommend that family, friends, children, clergy, and especially, the lover�s spouse be informed. Exposure in the workplace depends on several factors.
<snip>
Whenever a betrayed spouse tells me that they�ve just discovered their spouse�s affair, my advice is almost always the same: Let others know about it. Tell your children, family, friends, clergy, and especially the lover�s spouse, if they have one. And this is even to be done during what I call plan A (making an effort to make as many Love Bank deposits, and as few withdrawals as possible). The problem some people have with that strategy is that it conflicts with the goal of plan A because it�s likely to cause massive Love Bank withdrawals. An unfaithful spouse almost always considers such exposure to be a worse act of betrayal than their affair itself.
But the alternative, helping the unfaithful spouse to keep the affair a secret, is enabling the addiction, prolonging the agony. In the long run, making the affair public knowledge without any forewarnings, threats, or bartering (which by themselves can create massive withdrawals) actually reduces the number of Love Bank withdrawals made by the betrayed spouse. It�s my opinion that the advantages of immediate exposure usually far outweigh the disadvantages.
"Granted, there are situations when demands may be necessary in marriage. During a spouse's affair, for example, I recommend that the betrayed spouse demand there be no contact with the lover. If there is continued contact, separation or even divorce would be the logical consequence. While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers."
I am a bit confused. I thought exposure was used in plan B after a period of plan A?
Whole article
What are Plan A & Plan B From the article
Another exception to the Policy of Joint Agreement when confronting infidelity is what I've called, "exposure." I highly recommend that while in plan A you tell your friends, family, the lover's spouse, your pastor, and possibly your wayward spouse's employer that your spouse is having an affair. It's a very controversial recommendation, and a clear violation of the Policy of Joint Agreement. But I've found exposure to be one of the most effective ways to end an affair quickly while in plan A.
But your effort to end the affair with thoughtfulness and care, and even exposure, doesn't always work. In many cases a wayward spouse is so trapped by the addiction that he or she does not have the will-power to do the right thing. Once in a while the fog lifts and the cruelty and tragedy of the affair hits the wayward spouse right between the eyes. In a moment of grief and guilt, he or she promises to end it. But then the pain of withdrawal symptoms often brings back the fog with all its excuses and rationalization, and the affair is on again.
Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the betrayed spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.
So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B
Ray
Hope this helps. Dr H finds men as a rule usually can Plan A for about 6 months. If recovery for the M can't be agreed upon within that time then he recommends going into Plan B. Total seperation.
nESRE
Thank you all! I had a light bulb go off in my head today as I was thinking of your posts. I am doing exactly what got me to this point in my marriage with my wife. I am hoping for a change instead of taking action. She is asking me to do the same thing that is the foundation of her anger. Me, "not caring" is how she put it.
I talked to my wife today and told her that now is the time to break off the relationship. She responded that maybe after our trip she will feel better about doing that, but wouldn't make any promises...in her words. She also stated that she knows what she is doing is wrong but doesn't know if she CAN break off all contact. She did offer to leave her cell phone at home if it eased my mind....yeah...that would do it... Our trip is 3 weeks away and I believe exposure needs to happen now if we are going to have any chance of reconnecting on our trip.
The offer to leave her cellphone at home is probably an indication that she has an affair phone. A pay-as-you-go sort of phone.
Exposure needs to happen YESTERDAY. She might get angry but for certain your marriage can survive that. But not the ongoing affair.
I talked to my wife today and told her that now is the time to break off the relationship. She responded that maybe after our trip she will feel better about doing that, but wouldn't make any promises...in her words. She also stated that she knows what she is doing is wrong but doesn't know if she CAN break off all contact.
Good job, Ray!! I would help her break off contact by calmly and strategically raising holy unmitigated hell in her affair with a well planned out exposure.
Who are your exposure targets?
I would first, go to the OM's facebook page and copy and paste all his contacts into a WORD document. Change your own facebook picture to one of you and your wife. Open up your family pictures to everyone. Good exposure targets will be:
1. the om's parents, family members, HIS WIFE, as many people as possible on his facebook page [we have a sample letter and can walk you through the process] This will be a very critical exposure because it will RUIN any notions of a future. Your wife will not be welcome into his family if they all know she is a married woman who is cheating on her husband
2. your wifes parents, your parents, close friends and family. Tell them all about the affair and ask them to USE THEIR INFLUENCE TO PERSUADE HER TO END HER AFFAIR. NO ONE should keep their knowledge a secret because that defeats the purpose
3. all of your children and hers
4. pastor, if any
It is best to do this all on the same day in one fell swoop to get the maximum effect. When you are done, I would make plans to visit the OM and tell him that hell is coming his way. Tell him to never contact your wife again.
I predict the above will effectively kill your wife's affair. Most OM are wimps who do want any trouble. The goal is to cause as much trouble as possible for the OM each and every time he contacts your wife.
Melody
As of right now I am looking at using Facebook for most of it. We have 40 or so mutual friends and family members that I would send a message to revealing her affair. I am still trying to get on the OM FB page. It's an entertainment page..he is a record promoter..so I am not sure how effective it will be. I am also still working on the message, not sure what I want to write yet. Any suggestions are welcomed!!!
I am doing exactly what got me to this point I am hoping for a change instead of taking action.
You get it!! We like to say around here that "hope is not a plan!" Hope has never saved a marriage in my experience around here.
She is asking me to do the same thing that is the foundation of her anger. Me, "not caring" is how she put it.
Again, you GET it. By not fighting for your marriage you are showing her you don't care very much. So many FORMER wayward wives on this board are so grateful that their husbands fought for their marriages. For many, it was the first time they ever did.
I feel in control for the first time.....thank you. I will post an update ASAP.
Make sure not to send any messages on FB too fast, because you might get banned from sending messages for a bit if you do that.
Melody
As of right now I am looking at using Facebook for most of it. We have 40 or so mutual friends and family members that I would send a message to revealing her affair. I am still trying to get on the OM FB page. It's an entertainment page..he is a record promoter..so I am not sure how effective it will be. I am also still working on the message, not sure what I want to write yet. Any suggestions are welcomed!!!
Can you find the OM's parents and family members? Can you find his WIFE, especially? That might be a GREAT HIT.
I would personally call her parents and your parents and ask them to intervene. If you send a message to family and friends, I would not post it on a facebook wall [that will get lost and defeat your purpose] but send them either emails or private facebook messages.
IF YOU SEND THESE LETTERS OVER FACEBOOK, SPACE THEM OUT 60 SECONDS APART SO YOU DON'T GET SHUT DOWN FOR FLOODING.
Say something like this:
I am sending this to our nearest and dearest friends and family in a special request for your help. The purpose of this email is to not to humilate or embarrass but to ask for your help.
My wife, WW, is in an adulterous affair with a man named Joe Loser. He is a married man from Loserville, PA. I have known of the affair for a year now and have tried everything in my power to get WW to end her affair. To no avail. This has broken my heart and caused untold grief for me. I am now asking that you, as our dear friends and family, use your influence to persuade WW to end her affair. At the very least, I ask for your prayers.
I love my wife and want so much to save my marriage. I know that cannot happen unless she ends her affair.
Thank you all for your support and for being there for us.
RayofHope
BE sure and CALL her parents! Ask them to call her and use their influence to persuade her to end her affair. Parents can be very effective!
And tell your kids tonight. They deserve to know that she is risking their security all for ................nothing. A big fat nothing.
p.s. when she finds out you exposed her, she will be FURIOUS and will make all manner of threats. DO NOT LET IT BOTHER YOU. It is an expectation. Just don't fight with her and don't allow her to draw you into a fight. You have taken the crack away from the crack head is all that has happened. She is expected to be crazy.
Just tell her, I am sure sorry you are upset, but I thought every one should know about your affair.
Melody,
I am in the process of trying to find the OM's wife. My wife's Mother has a mental illness and does not have any influence with my wife. Her step father died a few years ago so, I was thinking of having my father call and talk to her. She respects him tremendously and use to always ask him for advice. If anyone can get through to her he can.
I am not looking forward to the $hit storm that is about to hit, but in a weird way I wish someone would had done this for me when I abused alcohol.
Tried talking to the OM today. I sent him a text to call me, I wanted to talk to him about the affair he is having with my wife. Of course he didn't call and my wife was desperately trying to protect him. I kept the pressure on most of the day, but no call. He won't answer his cell or respond to my text. My wife asked me to leave him alone.
I did find out his wife's name and I am pretty sure where she lives. They live 3 hours away so getting a hold of her info is proving difficult. Any suggestions on the best way to get her cell number or house number? Should I let OM know I plan on talking to his wife? In the case I can not get a hold of her is there another strategy I could use? Sorry, for all the questions, but I am planning the exposure this weekend and I want it to hit hard.
Tried talking to the OM today. I sent him a text to call me, I wanted to talk to him about the affair he is having with my wife. Of course he didn't call and my wife was desperately trying to protect him. I kept the pressure on most of the day, but no call. He won't answer his cell or respond to my text. My wife asked me to leave him alone.
I did find out his wife's name and I am pretty sure where she lives. They live 3 hours away so getting a hold of her info is proving difficult. Any suggestions on the best way to get her cell number or house number? Should I let OM know I plan on talking to his wife? In the case I can not get a hold of her is there another strategy I could use? Sorry, for all the questions, but I am planning the exposure this weekend and I want it to hit hard.
I would not tell the OM or your wife that you plan on telling anyone. That will just neutralize the impact of your exposure. Does the OM live with his wife?
I think so, but I am not 100% sure. I do not plan on telling them about the exposure.
I think so, but I am not 100% sure. I do not plan on telling them about the exposure.
]
Can you drive to his house and knock on the door? That is what I would do. Gather your evidence and just go there.
They live in the Philadelphia area. I could do some more research and take a drive. I do know his work address and location.
They live in the Philadelphia area. I could do some more research and take a drive. I do know his work address and location.
This is what I would do if I were you. That will likely have the effect of running the OM off if you come knocking and calmly and respectfully tell his wife about the affair. Do you have a friend that could come with you?
oh yeah, I have a few that would love to go.
My wife keeps talking about our July trip. She offered to leave her cell phone at home so we would not be "joined" by the OM. She said maybe she would feel differently about ending the affair after getting away with me. I told her that I want the trip to be OUR trip and that I didn't want to spend the entire trip watching her miss the OM. Tonight she suggested we both leave our cell phones at home so not to be bothered by anyone. I am struggling with this issue, because I feel the trip will do us a lot of good, but I do not want to deal with her missing him the entire time. Do I wait for exposure til after the trip or 3 weeks before we are scheduled to go and hope for the best? I think I already know the answer, but I wanted an objective opinion.
Now is the perfect time to kill her affair because you will have the time together on the trip after the affair is killed. I would expose the affair wide and far and get it done this week so you can move onto the next step.
They live in the Philadelphia area. I could do some more research and take a drive. I do know his work address and location.
This is what I would do if I were you. That will likely have the effect of running the OM off if you come knocking and calmly and respectfully tell his wife about the affair. Do you have a friend that could come with you?
Expose. No more waffling.
Also, as Mel suggested, if/when you confront OM or expose to his wife, it will be important for your own safety and sanity to have someone with you.
My brother was about an inch from a prison sentence confronting the OM.
Delaying the exposure would be the biggest mistake. Do it immediately after you have tracked down OMW. The OM has probably already warned his wife because he knows you are after him (by your trying to contact him). The longer you wait the longer OM has time to spin the story about some jealous husband who thinks his wife has an affair with OM...
OM is very afraid right now thats why he does not dare to contact you. This works for your advantage - it means that the exposure will be very painful for him and thus kills the affair.
You cannot outromance OM during the trip when the affair is ongoing. Actually, the trip is not so important right now, you can postpone it but you cannot postpone exposure.
From my experience, the exposure to OMW was the most important step for recovery and would I have done it sooner I have saved myself from lots and lots of pain and useless suffering. I hope you will learn from my (and others here) experience and avoid my mistakes.
From my experience, the exposure to OMW was the most important step for recovery and would I have done it sooner I have saved myself from lots and lots of pain and useless suffering. I hope you will learn from my (and others here) experience and avoid my mistakes.
Bingo! Ray, do this TODAY and get er done. The best thing you can do for your marriage is expose this affair. The trip is not important.
Letter is drafted, friend and family list is set. Still trying to track down OMW.
Letter is drafted, friend and family list is set. Still trying to track down OMW.
Ray, you really need to get ahold of the OMW TODAY. Do you have the OM's home address? I predict your greatest weapon will be exposure to the OMW. The rest will just be gravy. But that might effectively kill the affair.
I spent a few hundred dollars and all day Saturday trying to find his wife. I called all available numbers I could find, but to know avail. Even the addresses I found were not current. He has a private investigation firm also so he is good at covering his tracks.I did let him know that I was looking forward to talking to her.
I have sent emails and made phone calls this weekend. So far everyone has had a positive response. Wife was contacted by one friend already, but didn't seem pissed. She just received an email from my Dad and sent me a text that she, "would be home when she got home." Which means...I am pissed.
Can you hire a PI?
Has the affair been exposed to EVERYONE? Including your children and hers?
Not her children, they are still with their fathers. She is going ballistic.
Not her children, they are still with their fathers. She is going ballistic.
Any other exposure targets? Did you check to see if the OM has a facebook page? What about her parents and close family? Have you exposed to them all and asked them to contact her?
You are doing great, Ray!! Keep up the pressure and don't let up!
Yes close family has been included, as well as her oldest son. The OM has an entertainment page FB page, by invite only it seems.
Yes close family has been included, as well as her oldest son. The OM has an entertainment page FB page, by invite only it seems.
But can you see his friends and family? Can you ID his wife and family members?
Will these family members you told agree to contact her?
He has close to 5000 friends on the page. I did not see his wife or kids listed. I did manage to get 2 posts exposing him on his wall. Don't know how much good they did. The family members I contacted are all we have. 10 total and I believe they will contact her. She has already removed me from her FB and has deleted the OM FB page from her's. She also must be calling others because a few distant friends have deleted me from there page. She is in major damage control.
Great job, Ray! Stand firm and don't react to her anger. Just expect her to be furious and make all sorts of threats. Imagine that you have just taken the booze away from the falling down drunk and you will understand her mentality. Don't let it bother you!
Tell her you are "so sorry" she is upset but you felt you should spread the good news. Remind her also that she needs to end her affair now or this will go to divorce. Don't let her scare you, Ray!
Thank you Mel for all you are doing. Your support is much needed. It's going to be a long night.
{{{{{{{{{{Ray}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
We are all pulling for you, Ray! Just remember that your marriage can survive her anger, it cannot survive this affair. Her anger will blow over. Just don't let her intimidate you or drag you into a fight. This will be fine, I promise. In fact, the madder she gets about exposure, the more effective your hit.
Just don't let her intimidate you or drag you into a fight. .... the madder she gets about exposure, the more effective your hit.
This cannot be overemphasized. Do not let her even start a confrontation where voices are raised. Get out of there! Make abso-f'ing-lutely certain when you and she do have any discussions you have a mini-recorder on your person and "on".
Once the law-enforcement morons, all male, all developmentally stunted at the "save the female" stage, are summoned - EVEN BY YOU - you are royally screwed.
You can also download a conversation recorder for most cell phones now. I would record all conversations if possible just in case.
Download it to your phone and hit record anytime you talk to her. As long as one party knows they are being recorded (you)it is legal in most states.
Ray, I am one of Mel's past charges, and she helped me through the same thing. My wife wife was MAD - still is sometimes.
You hang on you are doing the right thing for the right reasons. If she gets mad, offer her the proverbial chip. Don't you dare apologize or back down, even if she walks. You are on the right road.
Can't talk now gotta go back to work. i will check in asap and as regularly as I can.
You can do this! It really works!
Mel - sorry just got your message.
Thank you so much all!!
She has left our home and is staying at a motel at the present time. Which is probably best at the moment because she is fighting mad. She has been threatening to respond to all the messages she has been getting by telling them all the stupid, hurtful things I did to her during our marriage. I told her if she thought it would help our situation to go ahead and do it. I am not afraid of accepting responsibility for my actions. I have also heard that I will be lucky if I ever see her again and that I went across the line by telling the kids and friends and family about this.
My fathers email to her seems to have her attention. She admitted today that he has more influence on her than anyone. Most everyone sent her a message today. I am getting more support than I could hope for.
She mentioned about meeting to talk tomorrow when she is not so mad. This evening, she tried to drag me back into the same argument we always end up in, but I ended our talk with a simple "OK" and quit responding.
I can't thank you all enough for preparing me for this. Knowledge of how she would react is what has kept me together so far. She is doing exactly what you all described.
I can't thank you all enough for preparing me for this. Knowledge of how she would react is what has kept me together so far. She is doing exactly what you all described.
You did great, Ray!! You took back control of your life. When you meet with her tomorrow, I would give her some conditions for her return. What I expect for her to do is to TRY and turn this back and go back to the current situation where she has her needs met in 2 places. You need to let her know that those days are done and you won't live like that anymore. Let her know you will only take her back if she ends all contact for life and commits to a program of recovery. See, she still believes she can manipulate you into allowing her to continue her affair.
Explain to her that you want to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and that you are not willing to stay in a loveless marriage while she has an affair. Tell her you are willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness. In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take to keep you interested:
1. no more nights apart or going out without each other - create a healthy, integrated lifestyle
2. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc
3. no more opposite sex friendships
4. complete honesty about her affair � passing a polygraph if necessary
5. commit to a program of recovery that restores the romantic love in your marriage
Tell her "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage." Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on her willingness and ability to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. She must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now he has failed. Unless she makes a 180 degree turn in his approach to what it means to be a wife, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage.
She has been threatening to respond to all the messages she has been getting by telling them all the stupid, hurtful things I did to her during our marriage. I told her if she thought it would help our situation to go ahead and do it. I am not afraid of accepting responsibility for my actions.
You handled this threat beautifully, Sir!
Great job Ray, now don't blink. Take the list Mel gave you and hand it to her - reprint first of course:)
Don't tell her about us for LONG time. Don't apologize no matter what. Shes gonna do the whole song and dance for weeks to come. Do not back down.
Own your mistakes in the marriage past and future. Let her own the affair.
Leadership and confidence are king. No retreat and not a waiver in your stride. She wants to split - you paint a picture of how horrible divorce will be.
BTW now the hard work starts. Good luck
WOW what a ride this is!!!! My wife asked me to stop at the hotel she is staying at for a talk today. When I got there she had bought me some new clothes (I work construction so I am dirty everyday)and offered to take me out to dinner. It was not what I was expecting. We talked briefly about the exposure. She said at first she was leaving me, that I embarrassed her and humiliated her beyond belief. I told her that I knew the potential would be there that she would leave and I was sorry she felt humiliated, but this was my "all in moment". I was willing to accept the outcome, but I was not going back to the way our life was before. I was not going to live in a loveless marriage full of disrespect and pain. I didn't ask her if she was going to end the affair, but instead I let it be known that I needed to know soon so I could plan my life. She briefly commented on how I ruined the marriage, but I stopped her by saying that right now we needed to focus on the affair.
She was especially interested in my personal counseling appointment I had today. I am working with a counselor on my personal issues,mainly my alcoholism and addictive personality. I like who I have become in the last few months and I don't want to go back to where I was. I will be working towards making all my changes permanent.
All in all it was a weird, but pleasant evening.
I was willing to accept the outcome, but I was not going back to the way our life was before. I was not going to live in a loveless marriage full of disrespect and pain. I didn't ask her if she was going to end the affair, but instead I let it be known that I needed to know soon so I could plan my life. She briefly commented on how I ruined the marriage, but I stopped her by saying that right now we needed to focus on the affair.
Great job, Ray!! Now move in for the kill. Tell her that she must end the affair if this is to go forward. Let her know that this will go to divorce if she doesn't the affair. You need to DEMAND this, Ray. If you don't, you give her the impression that you are complacent and don't care very much. You don't want to give her the impression you will wait because she will then wait it out and enjoy BOTH of you meeting her needs.
I would not let up on finding the OMW. Keep the pressure up, Ray, until the affair is DEAD.
How long since your last drink?
When I got there she had bought me some new clothes (I work construction so I am dirty everyday)and offered to take me out to dinner. It was not what I was expecting.
Curious. Looks like she's buttering you up for something, IMO.
We talked briefly about the exposure. She said at first she was leaving me, that I embarrassed her and humiliated her beyond belief.
You responded well, but I'd suggest that whenever she brings the subject of exposure up, make sure and point out that it was her choice to have an A to led to her humiliation. If there was no A, there would be nothing to expose, and no potential for humiliation.
She was especially interested in my personal counseling appointment I had today.
That's not surprising - she still sees everything as being YOUR fault, cause by YOUR problems, and asking about your counseling is likely her way of reinforcing this view. Concerning that question, if I was in your shoes, I would have responded that what went on in IC was personal to me and I feel uncomfortable sharing my experience with someone I don't trust.
You must ensure at ALL times that you don't fall for her attempts to deflect blame away from her choice to engage in an A.
Mel, it's been 2 months since my last drink.
Well some good news...bad news. She changed her cell number and told the OM she would not be contacting him anymore. She said I have one shot. I hurt her again and she is done.
Today she is back in the anger phase over the exposure and my contributions to the state of our marriage. She is especially upset that I used the word Affair in my message, instead of Emotional Affair. She says people are thinking she had a physical affair. She spammed my facebook wall today after she snooped in my account and found a message of support my ex wife sent me. Apparently my kids told my Ex of the affair. My wife has always believed my ex has influenced our marriage and tried to say if talking to someone of the opposite sex is having an affair, I was having an affair because I talk to her.
MIM...she is using my past addictions as justification for her affair.
Did you read this? This post describes the approach you should take.
You took back control of your life. When you meet with her tomorrow, I would give her some conditions for her return. What I expect for her to do is to TRY and turn this back and go back to the current situation where she has her needs met in 2 places. You need to let her know that those days are done and you won't live like that anymore. Let her know you will only take her back if she ends all contact for life and commits to a program of recovery. See, she still believes she can manipulate you into allowing her to continue her affair.
Explain to her that you want to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and that you are not willing to stay in a loveless marriage while she has an affair. Tell her you are willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness. In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take to keep you interested:
1. no more nights apart or going out without each other - create a healthy, integrated lifestyle
2. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc
3. no more opposite sex friendships
4. complete honesty about her affair � passing a polygraph if necessary
5. commit to a program of recovery that restores the romantic love in your marriage
Tell her "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage." Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on her willingness and ability to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. She must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now he has failed. Unless she makes a 180 degree turn in his approach to what it means to be a wife, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage.
Step ONE is ending the affair. That is just the START. Don't stop there, Ray. Drive this home. Tell her what your conditions are. If she won't fully commit to recovery she is wasting your time.
Step ONE is ending the affair. That is just the START. Don't stop there, Ray. Drive this home. Tell her what your conditions are. If she won't fully commit to recovery she is wasting your time.
ITA 1000%
Yes Mel, I have read it and I am creating my own conditions. We have marriage counseling this week. I want to present my conditions during that session. Since exposure, she is impossible to communicate with on a rational level.
Watching your wife go through withdrawals over another man is not fun. Any thoughts on how to best move through this state, for her and me?
Yes Mel, I have read it and I am creating my own conditions. We have marriage counseling this week. I want to present my conditions during that session. Since exposure, she is impossible to communicate with on a rational level.
Ray, she is still angry that you ruined her affair but that is to be expected. It does blow over.
That is very troubling that you are going to a marriage counselor, though. Marriage counselors are destructive to marriages and don't have the slightest idea how to save marriages. The absolute worst thing for your marriage right now would be to sit in a room with your wife - while in a state of conflict - and lovebust each other. You will leave worse off than when you went in. Marriage counselors have an 84% failure rate and have a higher personal divorce rate than the general population. Did you know that?
Before you go to a MC, I would ask a few things:
1. do you counsel couples in conflict together? [a dreadful idea that will actually harm your marriage]
2. what is your success rate of saving marriages?
3. do you believe it is possible to restore romantic love to a marriage?
4. are you familiar with Marriage Builders concepts?
5. What is your plan to save my marriage?
The reason Dr Harley developed Marriage Builders is because when he was a marriage counselor using traditional training, he saved no marriages. And neither did anyone else in his clinic. He was astonished at how ineffective it was and couldn't imagine they could take peoples money for it. The reason is because most MC focus on "communication" rather than restoring romantic love. But even couples who learned to be great communicators still got divorced. Couples who were in love did not get divorced.
I would be real careful about marriage counseling if i were you. Your marriage is at a very critical juncture and you need someone who knows how to save marriages, not some divorce facilitator who gives you some of the typical bad advice we see reported on this forum. What will you do if the "counselor" recommends a "trial separation" or tells you and your wife that contact with her lover is perfectly fine? Then you are screwed.
Please be very careful, Ray. It would be tragic to get this far and to lose it because of a counselor.
Check this out:
How Dr. Harley Learned to Save Marriages
And check out this excerpt from
When we Have a Problem I give you this advice because I want you and your spouse to be in love with each other, and I'm sure that you want that, too. But most marital therapists disagree with me on this issue. Because their advice is so pervasive, and so destructive to the love of couples that follow it, I use whatever opportunity I have to defend this crucial position.
The difference between my approach to saving marriages, and the approach of most other therapists, is that I focus on building romantic love (being "in love") between spouses, rather than simply focusing on conflict resolution. As it turns out, I also address conflict resolution, but I do it in a way that builds love between spouses.
Since most marital therapists fail to address the romantic love issue when they try to help couples, their approach to conflict resolution usually fails to build love, and as a result, the couples divorce, even after "resolving" some of their conflicts.
An example of this current effort to "resolve" marital conflicts is found in a book by Jacobson and Christensen, Integrative Couples Therapy (Norton, 1996). In this training manual for marital therapists, couples are to be encouraged by their therapists to lower their marital expectations by becoming more understanding of each other's dysfunctional background. Irreparable wounds inflicted during childhood should inspire empathy toward a thoughtless spouse, not disappointment. Awareness of each other's limitations should lead to acceptance of each other's behavior and a willingness to meet one's own needs, instead of expecting each other to meet those needs. The suggested goal of therapy is to teach each spouse to make themselves happy, and not look to each other for their happiness. While this approach to therapy may resolve a couple's conflict, it most certainly will not lead to love. When couples follow this advice, few love units are deposited and many are withdrawn. In the end, the couple is likely to divorce.
The same sort of advice is given in Getting the Love You Want by Hendrix (Holt Rinehart, & Winston, 1988). While the book title seems to address the issue of romantic love in marriage, the author's strategy for couples is to learn to accept each other's marital failures, rather than doing anything to overcome them. I guarantee you, if you follow this strategy, you will NOT get the love you want.
My experience, and the experience of a few others who are carefully studying what it takes for a couple to be satisfied with their marriage, proves the opposite of what is currently being popularly recommended. Instead of spouses trying to lower their expectations, I believe that they should raise them. Instead of spouses learning to meet their own emotional needs, I believe that they should expect to have them met by each other, and met in a professional manner. Why? Because that's what it takes for a couple to be in love and stay in love. Furthermore, couples should not waste their time trying to "understand" each other's failures, but rather, they should try to overcome them as quickly as possible so the issue does not have time to drain their Love Banks.
In a great, but mind-numbing, article entitled "The Mathematics of Marital Conflict: Dynamic Mathematical Nonlinear Modeling of Newlywed Marital Interaction" (Gottman, Swanson and Murray. J. of Family Psychology, 1999, Vol. 13, No.1, 3-19), the authors provide evidence that couples should not "let things ride and have a chance to build up" (p. 17). Instead, couples should address any conflict as soon as it arises, and resolve it quickly. The authors indicate that the biblical principle from Ephesians (4:26), may be helpful in marriage, "Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry."
In this study, newlyweds who divorced within 6 years were compared with those who remained married during those years. It was found that the divorced couples tended not to respond to each other's complaints as quickly as those who remained married. These divorced couples ignored each other's complaints until they became intensely negative. Those who remained married, on the other hand, went to work addressing each other's complaints soon after they were mentioned, not giving the complaint a chance to build up.
My experience with couples agrees with the results of this study. In successful marriages, spouses expect to change to accommodate each other's needs, so when a spouse registers a complaint, it's a signal for action. In failed marriages, on the other hand, spouses expect to be accepted as they are, without change. A complaint is interpreted as an unwillingness to love unconditionally, a failure of the complaining spouse. So instead of adjusting to the complaint, the defense is offered, "if you really loved me, you would not try to change me. You would let me continue to do whatever it is I'm doing."
Ray,
My input here would be that your WW is angry over the conditions in the marriage, and you have posted here that you accept your share of the blame.
Her response to being angry with you was to have an affair, to talk with another man about the personal issues that she should have talked with you about.
I was interested that she said YOU have one more chance not to hurt her.
This should tell you that she is feeling very defensive at this point, as she is trying to place you into the driver's seat for recovery of the marriage. She does not want to accept any blame, which is typical of waywards. In her case, she also appears to want you to make the first move in "fixing" the mess she has created.
From a communicative and logical standpoint, I would say you are in a good position to recover the marriage, based on what your WW is doing and saying.
The initial reaction of hers was to be angry over exposure. Typical. Then, she comes back and "gives YOU" a last chance. Also typical. She blames her behavior on you. Typical typical.
In your dealings with her, you also have the facts that she admits that her contact with OM was wrong, and she also has herself titled this relationship an EA.
To "help" her through, you can use all of these things in your own favor.
1. Tell her that you are hurt by the fact that she went outside the marriage to find support for marital issues. You may wish to tell her that you understand that the state of the marriage at the time she DECIDED to have her affair was probably not conducive to her coming to you about the issues - but her choice to go outside the marriage was her choice, and that you cannot be blamed for her choices.
2. Let her know that you do see your responsibility in how the marriage came to be in the state it was in immediately prior to her EA. This will let her know that you DO see your contributions to the marriage. HOWEVER, emphasize again that the choice to "solve" the problem with an EA was hers and hers alone. Accept blame for your contributions, and emphasize to her that the "blame" for the affair is 100% hers.
3. She has offered you a "chance". What this means to her is that she does want to save the marriage, but given the history you have offered here she is a bit gun-shy about your commitment to changes in your behavior. You need to have some concrete ways to show her your changes. For example, you can offer her the daily count of sobriety as one true change. Another thing you can say is that you are studying methods by which to form a stronger marriage, one that requires work from BOTH spouses and can result in a true reformation of a marriage when the concepts are used. Meanwhile, don't send her here, but practice POJA, O&H, and meet her top five emotional needs.
4. Finally, continue to stand firmly and make the demands you are making. The reason I tell you this is because your strength is something she is looking for, and she has virtually asked you to lead her out of this mess. So LEAD. Tell her what you plan to do: that you plan to understand her emotional needs, talk openly and honestly about everything with her, and to make the changes you need in order for the marriage to work. Then, tell her that if she wants a marriage that reflects love, honesty, and a much better relationship, she can FOLLOW you there.
Your strength as a man is what she wants from you. Her responses so far are saying "I want to see you FIGHT FOR ME."
So, gloves are on. Fight using the MB concepts, and you have a much better chance of winning.
SB
Mel,
I was concerned about MC after reading the articles here. Our first session, I made it clear that I was there to restore the love in our marriage first and foremost. My wife already knows how I feel about separation. How can I prove to her that the changes I have made are real if she can't see me at my worst. Separation would be counter productive to what she wants from me and what I need to do, earn back her trust. In addition, I have already made my condition of no contact between my wife and the OM in the counseling. This week I am going to present my conditions, which is a program our counselor promotes. I also am going to ask for his plan concerning restoring our romantic love.
Schoolbus,
I had to look around the room to see if you were standing behind me. You have a very good grasp of our situation. Thank you for your input.
I will be gone for the next few days and will post an update later this week. Thanks again all!!
Well Mel, you were right in your assessment of MC. Our counselor sort of threw me under the bus at our last session. He would had advised that I not include family and friends in the affair issue. The affair should had been handled between my wife and I. He feels that these things usually disappear after time. He did say that he felt the affair would be a road block in our recovery....really? I paid how much to hear this? I told him I did try to work it out with my wife and she made it very clear she was not going to break it off. I asked him what was I to do, sit back and deal with it in my face 24/7? I did that for a month, the pain became to great and I took control of my life. His only response was , "yes, that would be difficult." All I know is without exposure my wife's affair was heading deeper and our love would be dying. I still believe in exposure and would do it again in a heart beat.
On a good note, my wife and I have started to talk about what it is going to take for her to feel comfortable with my daughter again. Which is very positive in my eyes because the issue has been at a stalemate for sometime. My daughter has been taking care of her business to become a young woman, I am very proud of the maturity she is developing. She realizes that she can not control my wife's resentment or anger. All she can do is keep working towards being the person she wants to be.
Rays,
advised that I not include family and friends in the affair issue.
Too late it takes a village to support an affair, not fun to maintain appearances when you are dissolving from the inside.
The affair should had been handled between my wife and I.
He must mean that you consented before hand?
He feels that these things usually disappear after time.
Ignoring them does not work hence my issue 20+ years later.
I can't say that the approach here is magic. However I advised my W what to say to a friend was was definitely divorcing, and they are now on the mend. That was after they had spent a great deal on standard marriage counselors.
God Bless
Gamma
Ray, that is why I am so scared of "counselors!" They have no idea what they are doing and folks would be better off getting a pedicure! Thank goodness you followed Dr Harleys advice!
Glad to hear you are working on the marriage now. just a suggestion, put the daughter issue on the back burner for a while until you get well into recovery. You don't want to sabatoge your recovery by starting off with such a volatile issue right off the bat.
Keep up the good work, Ray!
Ray,
You might want to call the Harleys for marriage coaching, and drop your counselor. (Or, you could just take your hard-earned money to the bathroom, flush it down the toilet, and call that counseling....same difference if you continue with the counselor you describe. Might save you the time and aggravation, and you could watch a good baseball game instead. IMHO)
One of the tips I have offered in the past was a wait-before-talking technique. I think it might work for you. Try it and see.
What you do is when your wife begins talking about the relationship, or when the two of you are in a conversation about something serious, your rule is that when you ask a question or when your wife is talking, you are not allowed to begin your "turn" until you have counted to at least 15 after she stops talking.
you count slooowwwwly to 15.
then you can start your turn.
For example, you ask a question, and she answers it. and you think she's done. buuuuutttttttt
you do not talk or reply again until you count to 15 (minimum)
This allows a delay of at least 10 seconds or so of DEAD SILENCE.
Now, most people don't like that. It can be annoying. So, they fill it in with "more".
And that "more" is quite often the actual golden gem that gives you what you need to know - the depth that you are looking for, that leads to the REAL information, the genuine underpinnings of the thoughts of the preceding answers they just gave. Or, they give you the little nuggets that are couched as afterthoughts, but are little tickles that allow you to lead into deeper conversations and information that you would NEVER have gotten to had you spoken on the heels of their turn.
Leave space for those little nuggets. C. O. U. N. T. To 15 after everything she says.
If she looks at you, or asks you something like, "What?" or "Did I say something wrong?" -which she may do - you answer only, "Oh, I was trying to listen closely to what you say" or "I am learning to understand and listen more carefully to you, so I wanted to be sure I was thinking about what you said."
Those seconds will be filled up. Wait and see. You will learn more about your wife in those little seconds than you ever thought before.
And she will learn that YOU have learned to LISTEN.
In just 15 seconds.
What is hardest about this is SHUTTING UP and not jumping on stuff! Because you will be so very excited about what you learn, and the CHANGE you will see in HER will blow your mind.
SB
HELP!!!
I just found some hidden texts from before exposure. The affair was physical. I feel like such a fool....I was fooled completely.
I do not know what to do at the moment.
HELP!!!
I just found some hidden texts from before exposure. The affair was physical. I feel like such a fool....I was fooled completely.
I do not know what to do at the moment.
Has your WW actually denied that the A was physical? Typically they'll take the "lying by omission" approach.
Do you know if the A is still going on?
Do you still want to recover your M, knowing that the A was physical as well as emotional?
Yes she has denied it was physical. As far as I can tell the affair is over, but I do not know what to believe.
I just don't know what I feel at the moment.
HELP!!!
I just found some hidden texts from before exposure. The affair was physical. I feel like such a fool....I was fooled completely.
I do not know what to do at the moment.
I am so sorry, Ray. I thought you knew she was lying about this?
Mel, I had my suspicions, but actually reading the texts was proof.
Mel, I had my suspicions, but actually reading the texts was proof.
What is her explanation? Have you confronted her?
What is her explanation? Have you confronted her?
Agreed - it's time to confront her. Just make and do it in a way that doesn't turn the conversation into a he-said she-said exercise in denial.
e.g. "I have discovered proof today that your affair actually was physical as well as emotional, which means that you've been lying to me all along. I would like to know why you chose to lie to me about this."
If she starts to deflect or ask about the proof, respond with "That is not of concern to me right now. What concerns me is that you chose to lie to me about it. I would like to know why."
And if she still continues to deny, end the conversation.
I confronted her. She denied at first but confessed as I explained what I found. She told me she hasn't had contact with him since she changed her cell number and felt we were making progress. She wants to know were we go from here and I honestly do not know at the moment.
I confronted her. She denied at first but confessed as I explained what I found. She told me she hasn't had contact with him since she changed her cell number and felt we were making progress. She wants to know were we go from here and I honestly do not know at the moment.
I would get it all out now. Is there more? Tell her you need all your questions answered openly and honestly to go on. What about the OM's wife? Who is she and where is she? Ask her those questions. If she is sincere about this, she will tell you. The OMW needs to know about the affair and she has to agree to help you do that. <----get this now while she feels guilty, Ray.
Additionally, you have to have her committment to this program of recovery. Here is my post again:
Explain to her that you want to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and that you are not willing to stay in a loveless marriage with no plan for recovery. Tell her you are willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness. In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take to keep you interested:
1. no more nights apart or going out without each other - create a healthy, integrated lifestyle
2. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc
3. no more opposite sex friendships
4. complete honesty about her affair � passing a polygraph if necessary
5. commit to a program of recovery that restores the romantic love in your marriage
Tell her "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage." Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on her willingness and ability to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. She must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now he has failed. Unless she makes a 180 degree turn in his approach to what it means to be a wife, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage.
Ray, hit her with this NOW while the iron is hot. You won't have this same chance tomorrow after she regroups. Get as much as you CAN NOW.
I confronted her. She denied at first but confessed as I explained what I found. She told me she hasn't had contact with him since she changed her cell number and felt we were making progress. She wants to know were we go from here and I honestly do not know at the moment.
Lies like this have a way of resetting the recovery clock. I'd ask her if there's anything else that needs to be disclosed; anything else that she's been lying about, because you really don't want that clock reset too often.
Another thing - knowing that our WWs have actually gone physical in their As can change our outlook about recoving the M significantly. It's one thing to *suspect*, it's another to actually *know* that your WW's was intimate with another man and playing you for a fool. Your emotions are likely going to be pretty raw for some time. However, I suggest keeping an eye on the end-game - if you really want to recover your M, your actions need to be in line with this.
Thanks guys...good stuff.
My wife came completely clean last night and today. She has done a complete 180 in her attitude towards our marriage. She has given me or agreed to everything on my list and then some. She has taken it upon herself to learn more about how we got here. She has cried and apologized to me all day, sincerely. She says she wants her marriage and her husband.
Good job, my man!!
You are now positioned to BEGIN marriage recovery.
Ray, I would get her committment to start this program and LEAD your marriage into recovery. Either get into the online program [that comes with a coach] or do it yourself. If you want to do it yourself, I would start with the book Surviving an Affair and use the Five Steps to Romantic Love workbook. Plan on reading a chapter a night and doing the exercises in the book.
You can start that in addition to scheduling 20+ hours per week of undivided attention time. That time should be scheduled and spread out over the week in 2 to 4 hour increments, meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs of conversation, affection, sexual fulfillment and rec companionship. <-------this is the KEY to creating romantic love right here. The program doesn't work without that.
Also, did she give you the name and # of the OMW?
Ray -
I just read your thread. I know too well how much of a whirlwind the last month has been, but you should understand what has happened. Everything Mel has told you was spot on, and every action you've taken has yielded pretty much immediate results. You are no longer groping in the dark for the right answers, you are executing the steps of brilliant plan of action not to restore your marriage, but to make it better than it ever was.
Don't make the mistake of slacking off when the adrenaline flow slows down. You're euphoric right now, but all you've gotten is a stay of execution unless you earnestly dive into the recovery process. You will have good days and bad days, and so will your WW. Stay at this, you will be amazed at the results.
There ought to be statue of Melody Lane standing somewhere.
Thanks fight4life! I think there should be a statue of you guys who drag your marriages out of burning buildings..
Thanks to everyone for your help to get us where we are. I can not thank you enough.
Mel, I did not ask for the OMW #. I do have their address. I have complete access to all of my wifes communication devices and there has been no contact since she ended it.
Thanks again everyone and I will see you in the recovery forum!!
Thanks to everyone for your help to get us where we are. I can not thank you enough.
Mel, I did not ask for the OMW #. I do have their address. I have complete access to all of my wifes communication devices and there has been no contact since she ended it.
Ray, she needs to be notified. That is critical to your recovery and to your wife's recovery. Don't let this slide because it is TOO important. Ask your wife how to get ahold of her and then get ahold of her. The OMW needs to know so she can watch from her end and so she can protect herself from your wife and her H. She also needs to know so she can get STD testing.
Ray, you can't let this drop.
Has your wife had STD testing? I would have her do this.
I need to clarify this post because there is NO OMW, which is why DH can not find any information on her. He is divorced. OM has respected my wishes and has not tried to contact me nor I him. Pushing the issue with the OM will not help us progress at this point it would only slow us down.
Hi everyone,
I'm "Ray's" wife. As I read this discussion, I have been flooded with a slew of emotions. First I felt anger because there is so much more to this than any of you know. My first thought was to let you all know exactly what led me to the affair because it wasn't JUST the drinking and the issues with his DD. But unlike all of you, I don't feel exposing his actions is beneficial to our recovery process.
Some of what I read was difficult to read. But I deserve it all. I made the choice to cheat. I have been on the other end, I swore that I would never do that to anyone. Now here I sit in the hot seat. The last two and half months I have done literally NOTHING that I am proud of. I ran from my husband when I should have ran to him. It doesn't matter that I believed that he didn't love me or that I spent the previous year and half trying to save our marriage on my own and that I was leaving because I could not take much more from him or his DD. Those still are not good excuses for my actions. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR MY ACTIONS.
I can say that I think that had "Ray" taken the advice of someone and told my kids anything without my knowledge, I would have found it unforgivable and would have left. I still have some anger where the exposure of my affair is concerned because people that I AM NOT CLOSE with were contacted. I don't think that it is necessary to involve others in such a private matter. As "Ray" stated in a previous post, the only one that he needed to speak to was his Dad. Because he is the ONE person that I TRUST and RESPECT. Yes even over my dear husband...but I hope in time and a lot of hard work that we can both learn to trust each other again.
I love my husband very much. I can't believe that I almost threw it all away by looking somewhere else for what I needed. During the last several weeks I have realized a lot about myself and that I need to change some things that I do. It's easy for me to get angry at others actions...and hold on to that anger...then use it to justify my own actions. That just doesn't work! I have some changes to make in myself. I have to learn to let go of the past. I have to learn to forgive.
I will do whatever it takes to have my best friend back, because years ago, he was pretty freaking awesome and I have missed him so much! I want to be able to tell him everything again. I want to be able to turn to him when I am happy, sad or scared. I want time to stand still (he knows what I mean).
I pray that he can find it in his heart to forgive me! Thank you all for being here for him. And helping him knock some sense into me! But it will be the ONLY time that you will get that opportunity because this is one road that I WILL NEVER travel again. EVER!
I can say that I think that had "Ray" taken the advice of someone and told my kids anything without my knowledge, I would have found it unforgivable and would have left. I still have some anger where the exposure of my affair is concerned because people that I AM NOT CLOSE with were contacted. I don't think that it is necessary to involve others in such a private matter. As "Ray" stated in a previous post, the only one that he needed to speak to was his Dad. Because he is the ONE person that I TRUST and RESPECT. Yes even over my dear husband...but I hope in time and a lot of hard work that we can both learn to trust each other again.
I guarantee you will eventually feel differently about this and you only feel like this now because the cranial-rectal extraction is still a work in progress. Most if not all WS's do a pretty good exorcist impression when confronted by their own sleazy actions and hate being exposed for what they truely are/were.
Time builds a different perspective so some advice? Build a romantic relationship again with your husband - we call that just compensation for the insult of the affair. There really is nothing more emasculating for a man than for his wife to have an affair so you'll have to excuse me if I don't buy tickets to your pity party. Wake up dear and thank God your husband still wants to be married to you. Instead of trusting and respecting your FIL, try some of that with your husband - you'll be amazed how well that might work in your recovery.
I'm "Ray's" wife. As I read this discussion, I have been flooded with a slew of emotions. First I felt anger because there is so much more to this than any of you know. My first thought was to let you all know exactly what led me to the affair because it wasn't JUST the drinking and the issues with his DD. But unlike all of you, I don't feel exposing his actions is beneficial to our recovery process.
Oh yes - of course there are reasons but no excuses as you seem to realise. It was 100% your choice to have an affair. But you both need to work on the issues that lead to the affair to make sure they don't happen again. Excuses, justifications and rationalisations??? We've heard em all believe me.
I am not asking for a pity party. Far from it. But again, no one here has ALL THE FACTS...just a small portion and the most recent. I am not excusing my actions in any way shape or form. There is no excuse for them...I know that.
Instead of trusting and respecting your FIL, try some of that with your husband - you'll be amazed how well that might work in your recovery. [/quote]
My FIL has always had my trust and respect and now I will have to earn that back from him, MIL and my husband. My husband will also have to earn MY trust and respect back and he knows all the reasons why. So, we are BOTH LUCKY that we want to remain married to each other because we both have reasons to leave.
I am not here to debate my actions and why I deserve a second chance with my husband or how lucky I am that he wants to give me another chance. I am grateful for the opportunity to rebuild our marriage and I know that we can have an incredible life together when we get past all OUR stupid choices over the years.
Hello Ray's wife and welcome here.
But again, no one here has ALL THE FACTS...
Are you implying that there are some facts (your husbands bad behaviour in the past maybe?) that you are still considering as a reason of your affair? What facts can be out there that will change the fact that you had an affair?
Blameshifting doesn't work here. Your situation is far from unique.
My wife still thanks me for the exposure. Your anger over it shows you are still very foggy and dangerous to you husband.
I suggest you to start your own thread, you can get much more focused advice. Keep the NC and your perspective will start to change.
Rayswife,
I still have some anger where the exposure of my affair is concerned because people that I AM NOT CLOSE with were contacted. I don't think that it is necessary to involve others in such a private matter.
I too hope you will look at your H's exposure with unfoggy eyes some day and see your CHANCE in there.
Dr Harley has said, that the more people know about what you do in your most private moments, the safer you are to others.
I suggest you start reading
Policy of Radical Honesty I walked in your shoes once. Owning what you've done, showing remorse (with no buts), apologising, recognising and establishing boundaries around opposite sex, taking extraordinary precautions to protect your H and M from another affair to happen and doing all this WITHOUT your H's need to tell you to do so will lead you to recovery.
Tell your children the truth. Welcome to MB.
If Ray has pointed you to his thread here, I suspect that he's made a grave tactical error.
FWIW, it's common practice here that if both spouses are posting here for assistance, they do so in their own threads. Posting in each other's thread just leads to a lot of he-said/she-said.
No, "Ray" did not point me to his thread. As I was reading it, I knew it was him. As I stated previously, I am not making excuses for my actions. I have taken steps to make the necessary changes in myself and my future actions to build a strong marriage.
I mentioned to "Ray" this morning that I have mixed feelings about this site. I don't intend to continue posting here because this is where he came to for advice and support.
Please stay if you intend on working on your marriage, just make your own thread that you can come to and vent, ask questions, post, etc.
The reason it is advised not to share threads is so each of you can be free in what you say, without judgement and paybacks. You are advised not only to not post, but not read the other's thread as well.
I understand having reservations on the sitre and info here. I believe if you just give it a full 100% chance, no holds barred, accept it all at face value and WORK THIS PROGRAM, you will be sold on it. You WILL see big changes.
No, there is no sugar coating, you will get called up when you make a mistake, you will find a few 2x4's with your name on them, we all do. There's a great way of looking at it....
If something is said that bothers you, angers you or makes you sad, think deeper about why. Usually means, there's truth in it.
No one said this would be an easy ride. If the shoes were on the other foot, how do you think you would feel?
Isn't it worth giving your marriage, your husband, that much?
No, "Ray" did not point me to his thread. As I was reading it, I knew it was him. As I stated previously, I am not making excuses for my actions. I have taken steps to make the necessary changes in myself and my future actions to build a strong marriage.
I mentioned to "Ray" this morning that I have mixed feelings about this site. I don't intend to continue posting here because this is where he came to for advice and support.
At this stage you will find MB a useful place to vent and get advice from people that have been there, done that, saw it, and got the T shirt ahead of you.
You should not read your BH's posts for awhile for he may need a place to vent and get help as you.
So start a thread of your own and the both of you agree to not read or post on each other's threads.