Yes I think we are due to rewrite the constitution aren't we? (oops big brother is watching..)

Biker this post I am responding to is a few weeks old, so if you have allready started a thread, ignore me for now, but if you havent yet please do. I will look you up.

Funny this is your last post, because since I started reading your thread, we had a common theme I immediatly recognized, and it seemed even Dr H. picked up on it.

You went in shock when this happened.

In my first marriage with my high school GF I was seeing since 16, we had come so far at 19, it was a gut-punch when she had an affair. I knew what an emotional breakdown felt like. Cant eat, sleep, and barely functioning anymore. The shock came from, "After all we have been thru and with a 1 1/2 yr old child?!" Remember that theme, the one about "All we have been thru", because I will mention it again soon.

Well the second marrige was worse, and I wont go into details, but this time we also went through he77, and we never thought that we could fall again, after all the trials, and also believed they would make us stronger, picking ourselves up, dusting each other off, and presenting our marriage as untouchable, at every opportunity. By the time health issues and very poor choices came into play for us as a couple, we had so many wounds that were not healed, sucked up and bottled up, that something had to give. But this 18 yr marrige at the time, had developed those bad habits that one time we were able to overlook, that did take us down.

"But all that we had been thru"...The shock was still as powerful, just not as potent, as it was when I was 19. This time I was 45 and had three kids the youngest 10.

I truly identify with the awful things that you two have been through, and they take a toll on even the strongest people, when a small crack in the relationship or each others personality gets widened until it breaks down the relationship, and you forget the way back to each other, or are just roomates walking around in shock.

You run away somehow, and wait for a miracle, because you are punch drunk, and do not have a way out. You say "Hi" to your roomate and go thru the motions, because you do not know what to do but wait and hope for something to happen.

But then something happens, and it is not seen by our partner, and in fear we hide it, because even though we know it is wrong somehow, it seems small, and they would not approve, but it makes us feel better, and nothing else seems to be working, and its only for just this time. God I need some relief.

That is how my wife started back into drug abuse, and if you read hear enough, you will see it is just like affairs. They need some relief in a fantasy, and they justify it because of how tough thier life has been.

This is part of why Dr H knows how affairs work in the brain of Waywards. He ran drug rehab clinics for a long time. It has a lot to do with chemistry of the brain. So do the thoughts change the chemistry, but you can't cure the addict if they are using, and the affair is just another form of using.

So you have squashed the affiar, you hope right? believing that you did we know she will go through withdrawal, and you will be the bad guy, because you took the drug away. Well thats tough love, and if it were you it would be the same if she squashed yours. But if it has only gone underground, it still is a sign of hope, because at least she has not gone that far off to blatently and outwardly state that she is going to fantasyland, and she still has respect for you and "All you went through"

I think that is what Dr H sees also, that you have been through a lot, and you also said she never processed all of the things that happened. I would guess from your Email info and of course with his insight he put that together, and is why he suggested the conversation, and tender offer, because she was a mess long before she broke down and had the affair. I listened to the broadcast, and I could hear it in his voice, that he has commpassion for you guys.

For you, I know you will not give up on your wife, and you love her as much as I loved mine, and still do really, because of all that we shared, and fought together for our children, and was forged in fire. I want to encourage you that is not a mistake, love is never a mistake, but learning how to rebuild it, can be as simple as trusting the proper authority. The big guy, God is the author of course, but Dr H is the best source practically to help you in application.

For you guys, I think it could be a whole new marraige, and be stronger than before, because you will use the tools here to depend on them also.

In time, you will see the light at the end of the tunnel, so listen to the Dr, and the people here. I like your mantra. Jessie has the patience of a saint, Mel is someone who sees many angles. To many great posters here to remember them all. But remember when in this battle, the counsel of many is wise.

So breathe.. and may God smile on you.

It's true.....I see that now......and I'm just NOW starting to find some clarity of mind.


YEP!.....that's it!!
The appetite is coming back.....I still need meds to sleep though.


I tried to talk to the WW (didn't know she was wandering at the time!) from EVERY aspect I knew.....tried to engage her to talk EVERY way I knew......She just froze up. Now, in hindsight, I see that she was in the affair and COMPLETELY FOGGED UP!


You MUST have been living in my house to know that!!!


I see that.......NOW I see that!


How can anyone dispute that.


She has had some severe difficulties in life......I just tried to make them better in the face of adversity.
But....The WW didn't hear a word I said when I contacted her......I was still the "Bad guy" and "You just went too far.."
I REALLY had to bite my lip when she said that......NO Love Busters .....right?
UGH!!!


"Forged in Fire".....THAT's the truth!!!


THANK YOU....THANK YOU....THANK YOU....THANK YOU....

Turns out.....I'm not as strong and independent as I thought...

I Thank this group for the insight, knowledge, experience, support and Love I have found here!

From Summary of Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts


Ain't THAT the truth!!

We never are it seems.

So is this your main thread? Was wondering what is happening, but didn't see an update lately, though your posting.

As I remember your wife kinda got hit with a truckload of things, and did not do well processing them with you and her together. This is something pretty traumatic for people to go thru, and a case for being diligent as possible at all times, and being prepared for the worse.

I can relate a little bit to my late wifes sitch. She had allways had a problem with fear of being like her Mom, who was a terrible drinker. She also had the unrealistic task of being the oldest child, and the only one who had the sense to get away from all the heartache, but still the one they all looked to when things got tough. They were allways in terrible situations, and they would do little to get out of them, and it tore at my wifes heart.

My advice and demand at times was to stay away from them, and not get to emeotionally invested in thier problems, because it brought on so many triggers and fears. She had escaped thier horror, and she was scarred from it, and likely to get into desparate thinking and reaction if she spent time with these people. But W did not take my sugesstions to involve herself with counseling for herself, or a career, or study. She would counsel people who had problems, clean the house and take care of the kids, but never learned that she could not give these people God, and wasn't her responsibility. All I wanted was to see some peace and balance in her, and some healthy habits that she ignored were nessesary.

So years later when she lost 6 family members to variuos problems, it hit her like a truck, although it is part of life, and should not have been a surprise with the way they lived, for her and how much she thought it was her responsibilty, and how she allways was the "hero" part of the "Children of alcoholics" syndrome. It was another step towards her using again in fear.

See the thing is, when your the "hero" and savior, your job is to save the ones you love. I understand this dynamic, because even though I had a bed of roses compared to my late wives life, I also deeply loved my Dad, and was extremely worked up and played the hero to help him and make him happy as he also had some issues. My Mom too, I wanted to fix thier problems. I also had learned that I couldn't help someone who simply would not be helped at an earlier age, and when I let that go I was much more able to live a normal life free from guilt and fear. I knew what she was going though and tried to bring the cure...let it go..

In an alcoholic family as bad as my wives, and with how sensitized she was as a sensitive woman also, it made her do some really brave things, but it was allways for someone else.

Well when she lost the family members, she was allready in bad shape, and for years I had asked to to please get counsel, and I was just waiting for her to reach rock bottom, so she would. I was still busy keeping a roof over our head, but I was getting tired and worn down, also from situation to situation and things were not getting any better.

When she lost her foster sister she just happened to be around the wrong person who introduced her to heroin. She took extremely small doses, just to cope, and hid it from me for two years, until the doses increased and she became more and more under its influence, and became wild party girl and it really just took her really Thats the simple way to explain it. She was no longer the woman I knew, and would never return for the rest of her life.

So if your W has an issue she needs counseling for, and it could be described as a "complicated grief" issue or past responses to losses, please encourage her to deal with them with a counselor, and find a good one, because your issues you have in marraige will not be tottally healed, until she is getting the right treatment and sees the light at the end of the tunnel. She needs hope that the dark clouds will be lifted, and your encouragement. Its entirely possible, that Dr H will encourage such treatment.

Having a trainload of stuff happen to us that beats the crap out both of you has to be clarified as just that, crap, and be put behind us, cuz its over. The shock sticks around for awhile, and when its our new "filter", we can see things so differently.

Do whatever you can to help in you and her outlook and perspective, and don't forget to pray, meditate, and soak up Gods strength and peace.

So wheres your thread?

Been reading Hagakure a lot lately.

Here is one that I find strikes on seeking advice;

So many scriptural references in that HHH, may I? Of course CP, have at it!

Jeremiah 17:7-9
King James Version (KJV)


7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.

"Living water, you will never thirst again", How strong will that tree become?

8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

I would say God knows. If we will let Him be our advisor


__________________________

Proverbs 1:5
A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:

Proverbs 12:15
The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

Proverbs 19:20
Hear counsel, and receive instruction, that thou mayest be wise in thy latter end.

_______________

So who is more objective than God? We are like the vine being pruned and dressed by the master, so we produce more fruit of the spirit. All things are for our sake, even the challanges trials and tribulations that we think will kill us, are designed to draw us near to the intelligence of Gods wisdom.

Ok sermon over, I'm not qualified anyways, but you will have to forgive me, I know a little and just couldn't help but share it.

These posts were from another thread.....I've transplanted them here for some clarity.
==============================================================


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I'm kinda wondering myself...... I thought I was entering Plan B but Dr. Harley told me to reach out to my WW again......I did......it didn't work out too well.
The WW told me "You just went too far and hurt me too bad!" (Exposure of the affair)
So.....where am I?
Dr. Harley sent me an email after I advised him of what happened.....and he replied:

"However, I still maintain that letting her know that the door is open for her return is the right thing to do, even if it may not work. The other reasonable option is to let go of her, but that will probably lead to a divorce. The option of hassling her should never be considered because it puts you in the position of being abusive and controlling, something she will reject regardless of how her affair turns out. Simply holding out your hand to let her know you love her and want your relationship with her to be restored is your best option. When she blames your exposure for closing the door on your relationship, remember that what she did was the most painful thing anyone can do to anyone else."

I sent her a card holding out my hand to her.....JUST Like Dr. Harley advised me to do. I followed it up with a call, actually several , which she won't answer.

So.....tell me where I am then.


So I should keep the door wide open and wait?
The WW blames me for EVERYTHING and keeps playing like a 20 year old in her first apartment.
I'm frustrated and confused......trying to be smart and brave.

============================================================

How close to crazy are you feeling most of the time?
You must close the door (plan B) in order to protect yourself, once your sanity is slipping.
Can you trust yourself to be honest and recognize when you must go into protection mode?

If you cry a lot, if you cannot concentrate on anything .... it's a sign Plan B is in your future.

Yes, this is my main thread.
I try to keep up with the other threads.....and post as I think helps.......but it seems as if I don't even understand my own situation.....or where I'm at in the Marriage Builders process.
The six weeks since D-Day has been the absolute worst of my ENTIRE life......and I mean ENTIRE LIFE!
I lost both parents tragically when I was 18 years old.....so I know trauma.
My first wife cheated on me......now the second wife......and I had my whole heart invested in this one.
I appreciate Dr. Harley's expertise......but I'm truly unsure of where I am in the process......I had sent "the plan B letter" 2 weeks ago.....but on the radio with the Harley's, Dr. Harley tells me reach out to her. And I have.....only to get shut down yet again.
My heart, head and body are just shot.....I take meds to sleep......and meds to get through the day.
I'm lucky to keep my head together at work.


What exactly do you mean "the worse"?


THAT'S where I think my wife is at......she has, and continues to, suppress SO MUCH that there will come a certain event.......and she is going to be a train wreck!


I've tried so many times to help my wife....she won't accept it.
So.....do I let it, let her......go?


We had counseling.....but my Wife wouldn't open up......still kept it bottled up.
She even lied to the last counselor who asked us BOTH very directly "Are you in an affair?"
She said "No!".......turns out she was! Won't even tell the truth to the counselor!


I am so sorry.


I offered my Wife counseling again last weekend when we had our Daughters issue......she turned me down flat!


My Wife's outlook is simply about herself right now.....I seem to be the LAST thing on her mind.
But......God tells me time after time......in that quiet voice......."Patience"

And......you're in my thread!

If you asked me that 4 weeks ago?.....when I was sleeping about an hour a night.....I'd have given you a different answer......but these days, I'm more better than stressed.
I only think of the Wife 80% of the day instead of 95% of the day.......


I'm not crying every day like I did a month ago......but my concentration still slips (Like I need more of THAT at 54 years of age!).....the last 6 weeks since D-Day is my own foggy period of history.....I'm coming out of it but it's S----L----O----W

Remember that guy from the Bible... What's his name... Haggai. Had a wife that cheated, came back, cheated again... Kids from affair partners... Divorced and remarried Gomer...

Patience.... Cut off her avenues (haggai did), don't finance her affair, "expose her nakedness" (ie. don't go into hiding because of her affair, or suppress it because it upsets her) that's what Haggai did.

God blesses patience with wisdom. A foolish man speaks hastily, a wise man bides his time and speaks slowly but listens with understanding.

Cv

As I remember it is a romantic story about love. Gomer had left Haggai and eventually ended up on the auction block and old women as a slave. All her youthful beauty had faded and she was not what most people would look for in a wife. But Haggai had did well over the years and retained his reputation and done well in business, so he bought her out of the slavery she sold herself into.

There is more too it but thats all I remember ATM. I think I remember him never remarrying after she left, and she being exceeding......something....sorry it was nasty thats all I remember when she left him. Grace and forgiveness at its finest.

Bill what I meant was that it is allways wise in a marrige to be prepared for the worse, but I mean be prepared, not worry.

Invest time in each other, have money saved, that all I meant.

When I was saying.."let it go".. I was talking about how I was speaking to my wife about her past and crazy family.

Yes patience bill with a gentle but strong hand reach out and keep getting built up in the right way to go should she reconsider.

Take good care of yourself

As it stands now.....she wants nothing to do with me......she doesn't call or contact me unless she wants to use me. Any contact is initiated by me unless she needs something from me, to watch the dogs when she goes out of town, to fix the DD's car......ugh!
So.......what do I do besides wait?
If I pursue her too strongly......she see's me as weak.
I don't want to be a doormat either.

Bill,

I know this seems like crazyland for you, we have all felt that, I lived through 4 months of it.........my husband continued to live at home during the separation agreement, you can do that in Canada and went to work every day with his OW.
I thought I would go nuts.....I planned A the best I could, spoke the words I wanted to say while he told me he was in love with his OW and had planned a life without me in it............I cried I showed weakness but I was honest about who I was and what all this was doing to me.........it's who I am .........and I figured being honest is the only way I could live and who I was, so if he was to reconsider he would know me the way I was and who I was.........
If I lost him being who I wanted to be, then so be it........I was going for broke and letting the chips lie where they would..........
Bill all I did was give him the freedom to walk away if that is what he chose to do, presented my true self and made him believe that I truly only wanted what was going to make him happy, and if that after 27 years together it wasn't us or our family life then he could go start again.........
I did tell him that once he walked out the door we were finished knowing each other, that I would not watch him live a life with someone else and that my life and business would be off limits to him as well.......
I prepared myself for a different life and looked after myself, enjoyed my friends and my boys......I worked on improving my home ........I volunteered at the local hospital.......I had the support of all our friends and even some of his family........
It hurt but not as much as his life, our boys didn't speak to him, no one would accept his affair woman, not like they accepted me...........
He would have to adjust his whole life for his choices and in the end he wouldn't have been happy with himself, what he had done..or his future...........
The OW was not like me, she was loud, drank a lot.......capable of lying and cheating, and now this is who his whole life was based on............I think he could finally see where and what his future was going to be.........SAD..........
But I accepted his choices and set him free.............loved him like I wanted and just waited it out for him to process what his life was going to be now.........
It takes time Bill for them to get to where we are.........It takes time to get over being mad at themselves for F'ing up their lives.....
I wasn't a door mat, I came across as a soft place to land and a place that wouldn't lie to him, wouldn't use him.....a place he could trust........
A place he could redeem himself.....if that is the choice he would make for himself........
But that took 4-6 months for him to realize and come to terms with.........
But he has no doubt now........it was slow but it took that for him to regain what was left of himself........
I would just say to her, that you are there if she changes her mind and that you have a willingness to change the things that need changing and that you love her and want her to be happy even if that means it's not with you........and then back away and let her think things through........
Let the chips fall where they may.....when you do speak, being loving and understanding......
I know it's tough to be patient and not to worry about the future.........but your future is up to you, live it Bill............let her see you live that........
jessi

Bill I posted this the other night on another thread:


Sadly, since your situation falls into the third category, history does not favor your chances of regaining your marriage. That has been the case from the start.

BUT....

The watchword on this site is defined by helping the victims of infidelity recover from its terrible effects. For many folks, "recovery" is defined by reconciliation with the wayward spouse, and continuation of the marriage.

A successful recovery can also be defined as giving the betrayed spouse the understanding of the causes of the infidelity, the opportunity to "fight the good fight", and the peace to accept that dissolution is ultimately the optimal resolution.

One partner, regardless of intention or effort, cannot repair a marriage. Your WW either recognizes her own responsibilities, or she does not. You should internalize that your suffering over her choices only hurts you.

Sun Tzu (yet again!) explains that while it would often be to one leader's advantage if the opponent were to seek battle, that does not mean the leader in question should seek battle. So it is with your situation. It would be favorable to you if she made an overture to return; it is possibly not favorable to you to pursue her any longer.

Agreed. Mostly.

Of course every situation probably lies in between NG's outline above and not neatly within one category.

To defend my FWW, her ENs were material things in life I didnt provide in addition to conversation and other non-sexual ENs.

In return for OM delivering said material things and giving her the conversation she apparently lacked from me, she delivered his EN of sex.

He isnt some young, hottie stud my FWW needed to bed to satisfy something I wasnt bringing. He found someone almost completely opposite to his wife who wanted nice dinners and jewelry and clothing and other stuff and to keep it coming, she gave him her.

As cold and calcuated her A was, if it was sex based, I really believe she wouldnt have been as relieved for it to be over as she was. And in the last number of years after the initial "love" as she termed it ended, she played hard to get as much as possible only to continue her easy life, easy job, and not have to face real life. She asked me to consider that she was using him as much as he was her.

Potatos/Po-tah-tos. She was sleeping with someone else for a long time. Whatever needs she was getting filled is immaterial today.

Living a lie was eating her alive.

The point being is despite a monumental cleave to our marriage, this program has a way of finding ground (foundation) where we can rebuild.

I hope you can, too, get as lucky as I have been.

You would think after 7 years of seminary I wouldn't mix up Haggai and Hosea on the fly... It was Hosea, but anyway... Here's the end of the story...


Hos 3:1 And the LORD said to me, "Go again, love a woman who is loved by another man and is an adulteress, even as the LORD loves the children of Israel, though they turn to other gods and love cakes of raisins."
Hos 3:2 So I bought her for fifteen shekels of silver and a homer and a lethech of barley.
Hos 3:3 And I said to her, "You must dwell as mine for many days. You shall not play the whore, or belong to another man; so will I also be to you."


my favorite passage is in chapter 2 though. He says: Hos 2:14 "Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak tenderly to her.


It is a story of a wayward who had no interest in returning. Yet, because of one man's persistence, she was restored in grace.

I didn't want to correct you but I think we all knew who you were talking about. It's an awesome story. One of my favorites.