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So he's trying to lawyer you, eh? Nice.
What about number one? and number 8?
If you arent enthuiastic the decision should not be made, even when something isnt an EP, which this is.
If he needs the EPs need to be nailed on tighter, do it. Change the EPS to cover what is specifically bothering you about the trip? Is it the alcohol? The fact that the buddies are chauvenist pigs?
Did they support the A by the way?
Regardless, their company and drinking is not a great combination for a wayward.
Its sort of like a gambler going to meet a bunch of jockeys with inside knowledge.. Its not technically the track but its just too close for comfort to what feeds the addiction.. Yeah, #1 is the EP I'm trying to enforce. We did POJA about it the other night. The compromise was for him to wear a VAR.
AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11
Trying to fix the mess I helped make.
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POJA does not include compromises. If you settled on a compromise that you are not happy about, then POJA didn't happen. And, if you were initially happy about it, but are no longer enthusiastic, then the answer is to do nothing until the two of you renegotiate. NOT continue with the original plans regardless of your feelings.
You're not happy about him going, therefore he doesn't go. Period.
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If he needs the EPs need to be nailed on tighter, do it. Change the EPS to cover what is specifically bothering you about the trip? Is it the alcohol? The fact that the buddies are chauvenist pigs?
Did they support the A by the way? I thought the trip bothered me because I wouldn't know what he is doing. But, we POJA'd the VAR, so I would know what he's doing and it's still bothering me...so now I think it's just that I feel like I'm #2 to his work. It makes me feel like I'm not important to him, which hurts my feelings. Does that make sense, or am I being selfish? His boss is the only one at work that knows about the A. He doesn't support it and told my H if he pulled anything like that again he'd be out on is A$$.
AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11
Trying to fix the mess I helped make.
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POJA does not include compromises. If you settled on a compromise that you are not happy about, then POJA didn't happen. And, if you were initially happy about it, but are no longer enthusiastic, then the answer is to do nothing until the two of you renegotiate. NOT continue with the original plans regardless of your feelings.
You're not happy about him going, therefore he doesn't go. Period. That's exactly what happened. I was happy about the VAR idea, but now I'm having second thoughts.
AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11
Trying to fix the mess I helped make.
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Boat trip = fun
That is the simple equation of it all.
It does not matter that it has to do with "work". You can put lipstick on a pig, and it is still a pig. The boat makes it a little more fun, and people are more inclined to relax, which is the INTENT.
They say and do things they are less likely to say or do at an office.
Which means: boundaries are LESSENED.
Which is why you are nervous about the "work" boat trip.
It does not take a rocket scientist to figure this out.
He wants to go because he wants to be in the environment where those boundaries with co-workers are DOWN.
You do not want him there for that exact reason.
Yoda says:
No POJA for bad situation.
Schoolbus
Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
Recovered.
Happy.
Most recent D-day Fall 2005
Our new marriage began that day. Not easily, but it did happen.
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I thought the trip bothered me because I wouldn't know what he is doing. But, we POJA'd the VAR, so I would know what he's doing and it's still bothering me...so now I think it's just that I feel like I'm #2 to his work. It makes me feel like I'm not important to him, which hurts my feelings. Does that make sense, or am I being selfish? You've already answered your own question by sending him the info about the love bank. It is never selfish to tell your other half when they are hurting you. It helps them. You can change your mind about what hurts you too, telling him you have is part of beng radically honest. If you give your giver too free a reign, he will just totally squander the love in your h's account. Thats the beauty of POJA. You dont have to argue out who is 'right' who is 'wrong' who is 'selfish' or 'unselfish' - you keep going right past those distractions like an arrow bound for mutual agreement. Dr H says: The Policy of Joint Agreement also avoids the worst advice of our Giver and Taker. In the state of Intimacy, we are encouraged by our Giver to sacrifice our own happiness so that the other person can be happy. In the state of Conflict, we are encouraged by our Taker to let our spouses sacrifice so that we can be happy. Neither of these are worthy objectives because in both cases someone gets hurt
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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Thanks all.
H came home very appreciative of me, hugging and kissing and trying to make me happy again. I asked him if he told his workers he would go on the boat trip and he said he didn't tell them anything "yet." I think he wants us to negotiate about it more, but I don't see anything that would make me happy with him going.
At the same time, I'm worried that me not letting him go will cause him to be resentful towards me. Isn't the POJA decision supposed to be something we are BOTH happy with? I'm happy with him not going, but he will be unhappy. So it's still not POJA because he isn't enthusiastic. This is so frustrating.
AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11
Trying to fix the mess I helped make.
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There are two kinds of resentment: (1) Resentment due to something one of you DID to the other that was hurtful, and (2) resentment due to something you DIDN'T do for yourself that you would have liked, but would have hurt your spouse. Your husband has the first kind of resentment because you had an affair three months into your marriage. What you did hurt him. You have the second kind of resentment because you now feel obligated to avoid seeing a friend who is a threat to your husband.
I think you would agree with me that the first kind of resentment is the worst, because your husband knows you deliberately hurt him. It's no wonder he's having trouble recovering from the experience. Your poor communication may be partly due to the fact that he is still trying to recover from the shock.
The second kind of resentment, the kind you are experiencing, may be uncomfortable, but life is full of instances where we need to control ourselves for the protection of others. In other words, I'm saying that whatever resentment you may feel about not being able to see your friend is nothing compared to the resentment you would feel if your husband had indulged in an affair.
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There are two kinds of resentment: (1) Resentment due to something one of you DID to the other that was hurtful, and (2) resentment due to something you DIDN'T do for yourself that you would have liked, but would have hurt your spouse. Your husband has the first kind of resentment because you had an affair three months into your marriage. What you did hurt him. You have the second kind of resentment because you now feel obligated to avoid seeing a friend who is a threat to your husband.
I think you would agree with me that the first kind of resentment is the worst, because your husband knows you deliberately hurt him. It's no wonder he's having trouble recovering from the experience. Your poor communication may be partly due to the fact that he is still trying to recover from the shock.
The second kind of resentment, the kind you are experiencing, may be uncomfortable, but life is full of instances where we need to control ourselves for the protection of others. In other words, I'm saying that whatever resentment you may feel about not being able to see your friend is nothing compared to the resentment you would feel if your husband had indulged in an affair. Thanks Prisca!! I printed the link and will have my H read it.
AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11
Trying to fix the mess I helped make.
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hbd, have you read this thread of Extraordinary Precautions? This kind of list protects both of you eventually and is not the subject of poja. Read this thread very carefully.
Me (FWH) 44
Mrs_Recon6mo (FWW) 42
Married 22 years
2 Children 20 and 22 years
Last D-Day for me: May 2009
Last D-Day for her: October 2008
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hbd, have you read this thread of Extraordinary Precautions? This kind of list protects both of you eventually and is not the subject of poja. Read this thread very carefully. Thanks! Yeah, I've read it a few times actually. To be honest, I found those long lists a little overwhelming, so I made my own list of EPs that are important for me (posted earlier in my thread). I think my main problem is myself. I don't want my h resenting me or feeling controlled, so I don't enforce the EPs. I guess I just need to be stronger...easier said than done, I guess.
AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11
Trying to fix the mess I helped make.
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H and I finally came to an enthusiastic agreement about the boat trip. I really do want him to have friends at work, so I do want him to participate in work outings occasionally. He works 50 hours a week and I want him to have some friends there or he will be miserable. I just don't want any of those friends to be women. So, I decided, that I want him to go on the boat trip, but he cannot drink or have any conversations with women. To confirm that he is upholding his side of the bargain, he will record the entire outing using a VAR. Also, he will need to make up the time spent away from me by taking me out to lunch a few times. Our first lunch date is today.  How does that sound?
AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11
Trying to fix the mess I helped make.
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I would spend ALL my leisure time with my H and getting the most of it to work ourselves back to intimacy. I don't see you are doing that right now, I'm sorry.
Not enforcing EP's will backfire. Not practising POJA or use the twisted version of it will do you no good. Right now, you are focusing on bargaining - and as said earlier, this is not POJA. Think about it - if you need to bargain something, you are by default NOT happy about the situation.
And I would NEVER trust him to have ALL the outing on the tape.
Last edited by Mrs_Recon6mo; 08/22/11 01:59 PM.
Me, FWW: 43
Mr_Recon6mo, FWH: 44
DD20 and DS23
3 cats
Married 23 years, together 24
Divorcing
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I don't want my h resenting me or feeling controlled, so I don't enforce the EPs. I guess I just need to be stronger...easier said than done, I guess I think you are taking the whole situation too lightly. Reread this EPs thread and especially the part where HPB discusses why EPs are necessary. You should never trust a WS.
Me, FWW: 43
Mr_Recon6mo, FWH: 44
DD20 and DS23
3 cats
Married 23 years, together 24
Divorcing
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I don't want my h resenting me or feeling controlled, so I don't enforce the EPs. I guess I just need to be stronger...easier said than done, I guess I think you are taking the whole situation too lightly. Reread this EPs thread and especially the part where HPB discusses why EPs are necessary. You should never trust a WS. Thanks Mrs. Recon. I appreciate your concern. I definitely don't trust him, which is why using a VAR is a requirement of the outing(I'll keep track of timing and how much is recorded to be sure it's all on there). I would also like to use this as an opportunity to see what is said at the outing. I can see how he behaves and how his co-workers behave. I feel like this will be an opportunity for me to know more about the people he works with and which ones are good for him to be friends with. He currently spends all of his free time with me. We are getting 15 to 20 hours of UA time each week. I go out with my girlfriends monthly, but he hasn't been out without me since d-day. This outing would be his first in 7 months.
AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11
Trying to fix the mess I helped make.
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
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POJA doesnt mean - I'll 'put up' with something I am not enthusiastic about (boat trip) in exchange for something I want (lunches)
It means you both have to be enthusiastic about each and every single decision.
You arent happy about the boat trip - you've told him so twice. But you arent happy with having your arm twisted either and being guilted by him. So you cave and throw POJA out the window.
Entusiasm is the key word. If youre not enthusiastic, it doesnt happen, you keep coming up with alternatives.
no more tit for tat deals
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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I think my main problem is myself. I don't want my h resenting me or feeling controlled, He has the exact same power in POJA that you do. You wouldnt go off on any boat trip that made him unhappy.
Last edited by indiegirl; 08/22/11 02:44 PM.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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he hasn't been out without me since d-day. This outing would be his first in 7 months. WHAT?! He hasnt been out with you yet, but when he gets invited on a boat trip with a bunch of guys, he's acts like cinders not being able to go to the ball? ? He has an amazing wife at home, who's all ready to go out and have some fun with him and he acts like he's getting the sort of deal orphans get at christmas. I think you need to see a bit more effort from this one.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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POJA doesnt mean - I'll 'put up' with something I am not enthusiastic about (boat trip) in exchange for something I want (lunches)
It means you both have to be enthusiastic about each and every single decision.
You arent happy about the boat trip - you've told him so twice. But you arent happy with having your arm twisted either and being guilted by him. So you cave and throw POJA out the window.
Entusiasm is the key word. If youre not enthusiastic, it doesnt happen, you keep coming up with alternatives.
no more tit for tat deals I do want him to go though. I want him to have friends. That is something that has always attracted me to him..the fact that he has always been popular and had a lot of friends. I really do want him to go and have fun, as long as he isn't drinking or talking to women. The lunches were to make up for missed UA time...so we get our 15 to 20 hours in for the week.
Last edited by hbd; 08/22/11 04:16 PM.
AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11
Trying to fix the mess I helped make.
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he hasn't been out without me since d-day. This outing would be his first in 7 months. WHAT?! He hasnt been out with you yet, but when he gets invited on a boat trip with a bunch of guys, he's acts like cinders not being able to go to the ball? ?. LOl. No, I meant he hasn't been out without me. We have a date night at least once a month.
Last edited by hbd; 08/22/11 02:51 PM.
AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11
Trying to fix the mess I helped make.
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