Maybe you should wear earphones and listen to an iPod.

What I would do to have my WH active in my kids lives. He talks a good talk.

"Well Tough I would take the kids full time, but you refuse, so don't tell me I am a horrible father."

When we were trying to setup visitation. He made a big stink about how he made it clear he wants to be part of their lives.

Currently he sees them every other weekend (Friday night to 1700 on Sundays)
Here is our email exchange:

Me: "I would love for you to come two days during the week to watch their gymnastics/soccer/piano lessons/swimming. It would be great if you would help me taxi them because I cannot get them from one to the other because of the time overlap.I am always late."

WH: "I cannot make it down during the week. I have to work my 8-5 job and then I have my second job Tuesday-Thursday. How about I take them every weekend."

Me: "You can have them every other weekend"

WH: "So you are the reason I am not seeing my children. If you would go along with this visitation I could see my kids more. You are so selfish."

I keep praying he will wake up and smell the roses. I so enjoy the time with my kids during their activities.

Last night I was at the pool with my eight year old practicing for her swim test tonight. I was next to her as she was crawl stroking up and down. Her little body exhausted, but still going strong. I thought to myself I hope she remembers these moments. When I am next to her encouraging her to be strong, work hard, keep going, don't quit ...

Itistoughlove,

I wouldn�t settle for the arrangement your WH has. I would want, as a father, to have 50/50.

What I see with you, though, is a mistake in expecting anything from him.

Your sentiments mirror those of my WXW. She likes going to the karate classes to watch them. I do the same when they�re with me for the night, but I otherwise don�t go and sit in those classes because I�m spending the time with my DW on those nights.

My WXW feels that I�m not involved enough during weekdays, despite the fact that I live 30 minutes away and despite the fact that she originally wanted sole physical and legal custody. She gripes and moans about the school work she does with them and the fact that she takes them to karate twice a week. Well, it was her choice. I�d do those things if they were with me during the week but they�re not. I asked for that, but I didn�t get it.

I get them fulltime in the summer, which gives me a taste of the school year schedule minus the homework. It�s not easy, but I enjoy it.

You are hanging onto the hope that he will come to these classes and show a sign of his old self and restore the family.

You would love it if your WH would come to his senses and restore what you�ve lost. I felt the same at your stage of things.

But it�s been 4 years for me and the idea of being with the WXW is not one I�d consider at all. For starters, I�m remarried to an awesome woman.

As far as your WH goes, he needs more time with the kids if you expect him to be an involved dad. Hard to do that on an every other weekend schedule. He should be the one asking for that.

The day will come when you feel the same towards your ex as I do towards mine. I want nothing to do with mine. I could go the rest of my life without seeing her and it wouldn�t affect me one way or the other.

But you do see her and it does affect you so I am glad that you are here coming up with a way to remove yourself from her drama.

HTLD, can you bring someone with you to these classes so your X/W and her loser B/F can see how a woman with class acts?

You have to pity the guy, I mean ....even I'd feel threatened by your awesomeness as a husband/dad if I was compared to you

itstoughlove, I take back what I said on this thread and posted on your other one.

RMX, Scotland: My DW will go with me, as she normally does. She just hasn't been there when my ex has decided to confront me of something.

I'm going to remove the drama from my life.

I just checked what CS would be with the new numbers taking into account the changes. I basically end up paying about the same, but her changes to daycare let her pocket over half of what she was paying before.

Not worth the hassle of going to court over and the stress involved.

Do you get receipts from the new babysitter? My concern, and I saw someone else mention it, is that your WW isn't paying her friend what she claims she is, causing you to pay more than you should be.

And, have you thought about going for 50/50 custody? Or are you okay with the arrangement you have now?

I'm ok with the current arrangement. I get 155 days a year. It's solid time with the kids, too. I get all the quality time with them.

She has them during the school year during weekdays. I get the weekends.

I have them all summer and she gets every other weekend.

I checked the cost of the daycare with the daycare. She doesn't pay her neighbor when the neighbor has to step in.

I just ran all the numbers. Even taking into account my pay raise over the years and assuming she has none, the drop in daycare costs offsets my pay raise.

So in the end the judge would likely not see enough of a financial change to change CS and if they did adjust it it wouldn't be by much more. In fact, it could be less, but not much less.

So it's not worth the stress or hassle of litigating. If she's smart she won't. My gut says she thinks she could go after my wife's income, but the law protects her income and doesn't permit it to be used for CS calcs.

It sounds like through this thread you have found a solution that will work for your situation and that's great.

However, I don't like the message that you may be giving to lurkers here (that it is impoosible to do Plan B with small children or is only necessary when trying to save the marriage or not necessary after D).

I know a few MBers who are still in Plan B with their xWS and xWS's family years after the D and say they will stay there indefinitely.

I 100% KNOW I will stay in Plan B indefinitely myself.

Even if you cannot avoid seeing your xWS at an event, with a Plan B state of mind, at the very least, you wouldn't bother trying to argue or reason with the wayward or their family (such as your notes you posted in the beginning of this thread) and you would do whatever necessary to avoid seeing or communicating with these people. I will never talk or even look at my STBXWH at an event again. He will not approach me and if he does he will get my back or I will move away from him.

I will always use an IM and if there are any legal issues regarding CS or visitation, I will not bother trying to reason with him. he will just hear from my lawyer.

IMO this is the best plan of action for anyone trying to personally recover after D with a WS...or even anyone years after a D who is getting sucked back into the wayward's drama/antics...

Plan B is intended to be protection for the BS. It is for insulation from abuse.

There will come a point in your healing where you feel indifferent towards your ex. It is years away, but it will come. You'll also realize that your kids will eventually feel neutral in everything (for now). So when events come, they will want to see you both there.

They may even ask you to come to something you'd rather not attend because the ex will be there, but you go for them.

Susie, you're VERY fresh into this process. Yes, Plan B is the way to go if you wish to follow MB and eventually save your marriage. But small kids do make this difficult, especially if custody matters with courts come into play. The courts want to see cooperation for the sake of the children and they could care less about why the marriage failed.

This is especially true as a man, who has mom bias to deal with in court.

So, if you're still married, Plan B is good. Follow it and use it to protect yourself from abuse.

Eventually, however, you'll feel about your ex the way you feel about a co worker you rarely talk to. You'll feel very little about being around them.

the feelings get stirred, however, when it comes to diagreements over the kids. That removes the neutral feelings and brings disgust into the picture as you deal with this person you don't like.

You're too fresh into this process. You will eventually have to deal with the ex.

Plan B is not applicable after D. I can be, if you feel you want to save things eventually, but it doesn't really apply if you have no desire to do so.

At that point, you have to deal with the ex. This is ESPECIALLY true as a man dealing with mom bias in courts.

I think posters such as Mulan, would disagree with you. She is in Plan B with her XWH.

If I get a D, and my WH is still in his A with OW(or if he is a turd) I will continue Plan B for life, if necessary.

If that means that WH misses out on events for the children, his loss. If it means I miss things, well, I'll deal with that too. No event is worth dealing with a turd and keeping yourself in that drama.

HTLDs, as much as you say you are indifferent to your XWW, I don't see it as indifference. She makes you angry, that's not indifferent. Do I believe that you would be willing to reconcile with her, ever? NOPE.

Scotland,

I'd have to destroy my current DW, destroy my relationship with my parents, and then ask her to become someone she's not. I'd have to give up a marriage with someone that is infinitely more compatible with me and that I love dearly.

No, getting irritated by your ex is completely normal. I know folks that have been divorced for years that still get a bit stirred by something stupid the ex does. Doesn't mean they want them back. But it's not like you're ever completely indifferent to someone that betrayed you

I don't know a single person that has ever divorced that hasn't had their ex drive them crazy at one point or another.

She just responded. Wrote a book of justifications and rationalizations.

I haven't responded. My only response would be a giant DJ. I honestly don't care about DJ's at this point, but responding is also not worth my time.

I'd rather chat with you and the other MB folks as well.

I may have misread your post. I read your post, as you wrote it, as saying that I wouldn't be willing to ever reconcile with her (which is correct). But do I admit that she makes me mad sometimes?

Yes.

Yes, what I was saying was that you don't want to reconcile with your XWW EVER. I don't think that suggesting Plan B to you was ever about that. It was simply about removing oneself from DRAMA. In removing yourself, you also remove your children from it too.

She just wrote me. I'd like your opinions on my response. I had a much longer and angrier response before, but I narrowed it down to this (I'll spare you the book she wrote.)

My answer:

Good God, you wrote a book.

Bottom line is this:

I have every right to ask if this impacts CS and if your employment status has changed. Asking about it doesn't mean I'm going to seek a change, but I have every right to ask about it. YOU made the assumption I would seek a change legally. I never said I would.

If BF EVER acts that way again I will seek legal papers against him. It wasn't "just talking" as you portray. He was huffing and puffing and being belligerent. I would not have been surprised if he took a swing at me. He's been warned and I promise you that I will seek legal action if he steps out of line again. The sensei may not have heard it, but the parent sitting next to us sure did and told me afterwards she felt bad for me.

Diminish his demanor all you want. If it was so calm, then why were you holding him back and telling him that it wasn't the place?

I could care less what BF has done in the last 4 years since being with you. He has ZERO input into anything. ZERO. I don't have to honor his opinion on anything and really don't care what it is or have to hear it. I don't know why he does what he does. It's a complete mystery to me as a man.

I'm glad he's good with the kids, but I can care less what he thinks or his opinion on anything. If I cared, I'd ask.

You wonder why I don't come to more karate classes. The bottom line is that i don't want to see you, interact with you, hear your voice, or see your presence in any way. The only reason I do so is for the kids. I otherwise would have NOTHING to do with you and could care less whatever happened to you. Secondary to that is the distance. It's not 5 minutes up the road for me like it is for you and it's none of your business what I do on my weeknights.

When I've shared with you my difficulties recently, I did so only because it might have impacted my ability to pay you exactly on the dates you wanted. That's the only reason. But you're right. I have no need to share those things with you and won't from now on.

Don't ever bring any grievance to me again at karate. I will not acknowledge or respond.

In fact, don't speak to me unless there is something truly important that can't wait to be addressed via email, which is just about every single situation under the sun that isn't an immediate emergency.

Wait at minimum 24 hours before responding to her, ever.

I would simply say,

"I won't speak to you in person about the children anymore. Please email only pertinent information to me. I hope you respect my decision to communicate this way, as it is the best for all parties involved, especially the children.

Thank you."

That's it, that's all. Also, remember that you are going to have to hold yourself up to this deal as well. No talking to her about the kids in person.

Just my .02. Take it as it is intended, to remove drama from your life. Of course, if you are like my sister, you crave drama. I don't get that from you though.

There is a reason you posted this in SAA and not in After Divorce or whatever.

Because your XW is still a wayward and it's more than just irritating & entitlement...waywards are selfish, abusive, will rationalize away anything that you say & do not have you or your children's best interests at heart.

These communications are just going to frustrate you and suck emotional energy out of you and get you...well, nowhere.

I wouldn't bother sending her another letter other than what Scotty said. Good luck!

DW came home from work. She read the War and Peace epic my ex wrote. She read my proposed response.

She went one further than Scotland. She said don't bother.

DW encouraged me to respond to what happened and make some points that needed to be made, but said that saying anything further is just going to go into one ear and out the other so just let it be.

If anything, the WXW admitted to confronting me at karate in her email and admitted that her bf was talking to me. She tries to downplay it and tell me how bf has taken care of the kids and cleaned diapers and been there, etc and gets upset and therefore has a right to opine.

No point in debating. She doesn't get it.

You're all correct about not responding.

The thing about exes is they know what buttons to push. The effectiveness of pushing them gets lost over time, but sometimes they touch the right one which gets you upset.

Thanks to all for their inputs.

B/F doesn't have any leg to stand on, especially since he's never decided to upgrade to step-dad.

and EVEN then... he still doesn't have a leg to stand on.

B/Fs are not buyers, but freeloaders or at best.. renters

Honestly, he's an enigma to me. I don't know why a young man shacks up with a woman with 3 kids at his age. He's young. He's not a bad looking guy.

He most definately has white knight syndrome. My ex is the queen of drama. I had initially crafted a response to her along the lines of, "I do get how hard you've had it. I was married to you for four years. So I remember how you had the hardest pregnancy any woman has ever had in the history of the planet. I remember how you had cancer every year. I remember how nobody around you was supportive or understood you. I lived it."

But I didn't send it.

He treats the kids well, which is all I can ask. Why they haven't gotten married or why he puts up with the situation is a mystery to me.

I don't understand why my DW does it. I've told her as much on a few occasions. I tell her that I can't do that what she does in her shoes.

Heck, I wouldn't marry me. I'm a guy with 3 kids, a toxic ex, and a modest CS payment. I have only one free weekend a month and my summer is with the kids fulltime when she has that time off.

It's a mystery to me, but I'm glad she loves me. I need to bring her flowers today.

Is your cooking any good?