WXWs are irritating and entitled creatures.

Here's what happened:

Went to get my kids, as I normally do on Fridays. Kids weren't at daycare. Ex had her neighbor watching them, which is the new and unnannounced change to daycare that I wasn't aware of.

Ex decided to change the daycare arrangment we've had for the last 4 years without telling me about the change. Aftercare is now done on a drop in basis.

Well, I called to ask about this and I asked about how this changes her monthly payments to daycare since my CS is calculated based on the old numbers.

I also wanted to find out why the change was made without informing me.

I told her I'd talk to her at the kids' karate class about it.

She explained that she re-arranged her work schedule and is home on most nights when the kids get home from school.

I actually see this positively. BUT.....

She starts to rant about unrelated things since I raised an issue with the fact that I should have been told about the change and that I had a right to see if CS should be recalculated.

What really set her off was that I asked if she would be willing to explore music lessons for the kids now that she'd be home more.

So she goes on an epic rant about my lack of appearances during the weekdays at the kids's karate classes and how I'm not poor and she is and how tough it is to work and take the kids to stuff and how she's mother of the century and deserving of canonization by the Vatican over how amazing a mother she is that she takes the kids to their karate classes and does homework with them.

I listened silently, not really arguing anything with her given that the kids were right there in class.

Her boyfriend, however, decides he wants to puff his chest out and proceeds to tell me that I am not to make any more threats of legal actions and that he's not going to tolerate it anymore.

I decided not to look at him during his posturing and simply stared at the kids class doing their drills. This seemed to irritate him more and he started leaning a closer and raising his voice over the fact that I wasn't looking at him to discuss this. The ex was trying to calm him and telling him that this wasn't the place given that the kids were here.

I decided to simply walk out to my car than let things escalate further.

This makes the 3rd time that either she or her family/bf decide to confront me with gripes at karate.

I've sat silently at every single one since I don't think it's right to argue in front of the kids. Below is a long email I crafted. Opinions are welcome:

You may want to remove your DW's name.

I believe you are going to have to go back to court and get all the violations addressed, and move the visitation into your favor. Absolutely reduce your child support if she has changed child care.

She is gaming you at the moment. She will continue to press your boundaries continuously as this progresses. She is moving your boundaries for you.

No amount of negotiations or talking to her is going to sink into her wayward alien mind.

Your letter is full of DJs to her, and she isn't going to listen. If she has any type of passivity in her, then she will continue to dance this dance with you until she has absolutely exhausted you.

Go active now and let her feel the consequences. Get all your documentation in line, head into court and seek full custody.

I suggest a Plan B immediately and possibly for life.

Go to court...nothing else works from my experience

helpthelostdads-

First and foremost I do a lot of lurking, but I have a lot of respect for you and your take on WW's and always enjoy reading your posts.

Take this with a grain of salt b/c I don't know all the details of your stitch, but from what I recall it was quite the experience. Also I am quite young and do not have children and I am still very early in my own situation w/ my WW. But hopefully I can provide something that will provoke some deeper thoughts.

I think your email says a lot, I think it is crafted well and I agree 100% with your tone and message to her, but it will be lost on her.

You handled the situation IMO as well as you could of especially considering a coward boyfriend/POSOM and that is what he is, always will be, and a WXW that is still a lost/irritating and entitled creature.

And that is the problem. Your WXW still views you as a source of her unhappiness, or conflict in her life and to me that speaks volumes if she is that easily upset. I know you understand there was never a time for self reflection for her and its business as usual. Emotionally you have grown by leaps and bounds. Your WXW never got that message.

It should be about your kids, that should be your number one priority and your concerns are based on that notion

I almost guarantee your WXW has this notion of a reflected sense of self which is a side issue, but if you asked me why she did it and didn't tell you? control? to get a response from you? to test you? I am sure you know why.

You have every right to be concerned about the care of your children and CS, especially if you think the change is for the better or even for the worse.

What is best for your kids? Remove your WXW and POSOM from the picture for a moment and look at that path, what do you see? Perhaps that is the path you should follow.

But you are right I would never tolerate any sort of arguing in front of the kids, it's not necessary and I think you are certainly the better man in not escalating it. But also I think that is a time for you to be firm with her and boyfriend/POSOM since this has happened before. Something like "WXW and POSOM I understand your upset, but I will never tolerate arguing in front of the children this conversation is over" And leave it at that.

You know your WXW better than anyone here. If you think that is the best way to communicate your concerns with her than do what you feel is best. I certainly could and should not say otherwise.

But I guess here is somewhat of a different take and you can blast me for it later.

I do not know how "friendly" you two are or if this is common b/w you two.

Perhaps you two should have a sit down, just you and her. I think it would also be a chance for your WXW to let her guard down a bit, who knows. You obviously still have some emotion left for her and she has a lot for you, probably always will, no one can fault either of you for that. I felt some anger from you when I read your response and rightfully so.

Maybe at this stage it would also say a lot about you and your true concern for the children and allow her an equal voice in it. Again listen to her even if you don't want to.

"You don't show up enough on the weekdays or Karate class"

What is she really saying? Is she literally saying you don't show up enough to Karate class. Or is it she needs you to be more involved? Does her boyfriend live with her? Is he around all the time? Perhaps she realizes that he can't fill that role. Perhaps she feels like she is losing a connection with the kids and that is why she feels the need to be home now at night. Forget that she asked for sole custody.

Her words are saying different now. She wants you to be more involved. Why does she? What is going on in her world? She feels stressed, she feels like super Mom. Right or wrong those are her feelings just as you have your feelings.

She knows her boyfriend is not the father of her children and never will be. She knows you are the better man even if she will never admit it. She made an effort to put him in his place by telling him to calm down and saying to him this isn't the time or place. She didn't have to do that. She knows you love the children. But she has also hurt you a great deal in the past and she knows there is no clear path back to anything she once knew.

I guess who is helpthelostdads? Is he someone who wants nothing to do w/ his WXW no matter the circumstance, "Just say Hi/Goodbye and exchange the kids? Is he someone that wants to be able to communicate w/ her in a friendly manner b/c it will be better for the kids?

What is WXW really saying? To me it sounds like she is hurting. The shots she is taking at you about not being there enough are not personal in nature I suspect, but she doesn't know how to properly communicate that she needs and wants help. She doesn't want her boyfriends help, she wants you, helpthelostdads, she wants you there. Why all of a sudden is it so important for her to be at home for the kids at night? Her rant has some truth in it. But understand it's not all directed at you, you know that. A lot of her statements are her own demons and the consequences that she perhaps is slowly beginning to realize. For example "you're not poor, I am"

What is my response and why is that my response? Where is it coming from?

I know you know you WXW is probably not in a good place and hasn't been for a long time. She is lost, she is resentful and she may never change. And you have every right to push her out of your life as far as possible if you so choose.

But I also see this as an opportunity for perhaps you to reach back out to her. Not in a ex-husband I want to reconcile way, but from a loving position if you are able. From a man who has the capacity to forgive, to truly let go of the past and understand that they have produced children out of love that once existed. No matter how much she has hurt you and no matter how much you may have hurt her. Are you able to accept who she truly is now? And who is helpthelostdad's in relation to all of this?

One thing. Is it not inconsistent for you to chew her out for complaining about things at karate class when that is exactly what you were doing? The point about anyone else doing so (boyfriend) is different and totally valid.

I would also take out all the stuff about how you actually think this was a positive change ( other than the lack of notice). It somehow comes off as insincere given the tone of the rest of it.

But in any net I don't think this letter will achieve what you want it to. I would regard it more as contributing to a paper trail. Keep it short (like under 250 words) and business like.

Keep the letter really short and businesslike.

Just half a page should do. But do put in that her boyfriend harrassed you if you think it might be legally smart to have it in writing

Do not let yourself be dragged down to her level by telling her how she screwed up and how mus better parent you are. This is not an 'I am a better parent/person than you' competition.

I did not read your thread. Is it possible for you to keep away from her, or have a mediator or so?

Stay on course and do not let her know how they can provoke/irritate you. They probably want to.

Happyheart

I agree, keep it short. Give her options, how you can help or at least ask her "How can I help you ?" and you understand.

Keep calm and never show just how irritated you are. Only express how upset you are over certain behavior.

In a calm way you can also explain that here is also a legal option if your court agreements have changed.

1. Cut it down in size. It's way too long. 200 words or less should be a target.

2. Make it a series of statements, not a rant..

3. Remove the "conditional" statements, e.g. "I was actually going to tell you xx but you..."

Guys,

Thanks for the inputs. I normally let stuff roll off my back, but this argument at the class warrants a response.

Finah, thanks for the input, but you're projecting. I would have nothing to do with this woman if it wasn't for my kids. Marrying her was the biggest mistake of my life and I moved on looooong ago from the situation. I only interact because I have to.

As far as confronting her at class goes: The conversation wasn't hostile until her bf showed up. That's when she started to pepper me with questions that had nothing to do with the situation.

I've edited it down with some input from my DW.

Thanks again.

I thought that was the case, lol.

HTLD's

I didn't see your letter so I'll answer your post in two parts on how I would have responded. The first part is the daycare and the child support.

1. Remember, you are former military. Keep that in mind. Learn radio silence when it comes to your exWW. She is expecting you to react a certain way (return her rants and validate her feelings). Your job is to react in a way she doesn't expect and throw her off balance. Basically, get inside her decision loop. When she violates your boundaries, you want to start rolling a small snowball down a hill. She can stop the ball with little effort on her part at the top if she chooses. If she wants to be a Nut Job, the ball gets bigger, and bigger until it is an avalanche that she can't stop.

2. As for the daycare, here's how I would handle it :"That's good that the children are going to their friend's house and staying with you. Can you do me a favor? Just let me know what your schedule is and when you are dropping the kids off just in case there is an emergency." She is subconsciously trying to get a response from you to show that you don't care about the kids and are controlling. You think she did the right thing but acted like a Nut Job by not telling you. Which she did. But you already know she's a nut job.

If you are still seeing the parenting coordinator, just bring it up with the coordinator about her not telling you and let her handle it. If you go for a custody mod in the future, that is when you want to use the info of her not telling you about the daycare. But, make sure you document it with the parenting coordinator. It will show that you are being reasonable about what she did but are getting a neutral third party's view of the overall situation before you blast the X.

3. CHild Support. I went through this last year. With your previous response, you should get some good intelligence on how much she is actually using daycare. There are a couple of things now to consider. Her daycare needs are significantly reduced. Also, since the kids are going to friends, the rates should be much less so she should not be paying the same hourly rates.

4. Run the support numbers and see if it is worth it to file a modification of support. Most support orders require you to notify the other party of any changes in circumstances that could significantly change the support order. Look at how support would change and compare it with your state's requirements for a support mod.

5. If she stonewalls you on the daycare, have your lawyer send her lawyer a letter about the change in daycare and request info on what the daycare situation and costs are.

6. You should now get what you are looking for. FIle a modification based on what the calculator says. If for some reason you still are stonewalled, file the modification, subpoena the baby sitter, 1099's for her babysitting, income tax returns indicating she claimed the babysitting money as income. The babysitter and her husband will be very mad at you and the X. Who cares. They are getting your money.

As for the boyfriend, you are dealing with a boyfriend that has "Save a Woman Of The Night in the Oldest Profession Syndrome". He's just trying to mark his territory.

When dealing with him, think John Dunbar from Dances With Wolves after he is a prisoner with the soldiers. He tells them in Sioux they don't matter to him and are not worth talking to. Don't say this to the boyfriend but keep thinking it. Ignore him. The issue is between you and your X.

Always have a recorder going. I have a $50 Olympus Radio Shack DVR in my pocket at all times around exWW and her POSOM. I also have my Droid X on a clip on my shirt recording video at all times. This will cover your rear.

Next, ignore your X's rants about how you are rich and she is poor. She could have been rich but chose to be poor. Ignore. Your hotter new wife gets to benefit from that now. She's jealous.

As for the music lessons, she may think the kids have too much on their plate as it is. Carefully evaluate the situation and see if it is a battle you want to fight.

HTLD, I wouldn't be discussing anything with your XW in public, I would limit interactions where you are seeking information to email alone. That way you don't give them a chance to manufacture an incident and you have a written copy of everything.

If the boyfriend du jour keeps trying to get a rise out of you, when he asks why you don't want to face him, just tell him you only talk to a$$h*les under a court order.

htld - I do not understand why you are engaging in this sort of conversation with you XWW in the first place. I mean, what part of "divorced" does she not understand? She is finding out now that being a single mom is extremely difficult and, frankly, that it sucks out loud. But as I recall, she's the one who had the affair. Now she is reaping the consequences. Point?

Plan B is not just for married people. You should be going through the courts and/or a trusted intermediary when it comes to arranging things for the children. There is no reason for you to ever speak to XWW - not through email or phone calls and certainly not face to face.

And the *last* thing that should ever happen is for the kids to see you and XWW and her boyfriend in the same place, EVER. They had to sit there and watch the two of them essentially shout you down and throw you out. Stuff like this should never, ever be happening, and the one with the power to stop it is YOU.

If there are problems with child care arrangements, you go through attorneys and/or intermediaries. You do not deal with XWW directly and you most certainly do not ever come within ten miles of her lousy boyfriend. You have the power to take control of this situation and both and your kids will greatly benefit if you do.

Stop letting these losers push your buttons (they get off on it) and emotional abuse your children (and they are). Use Plan B to put a stone-cold stop to it NOW.

No attorneys. Haven't litigated in years. Just to clarify, bf is not an OM. he's actually a good guy, but this was way out of line. Plan b isn't in the picture. There is no marriage to save. I'm remarried to a great woman. What this proves to me is that I've been too nice over the years and do have to revert to a silent approach on things again.

Plan B is for your mental sanity...for YOUR recovery, while an A is ongoing or when one has a toxic ex like yours.

It would really help you.

The truth is that my DW wanted me to react a bit more than I did. I seriously don't let this stuff faze me anymore.

My DW gets more upset than I do.

My mistake is that I constantly forget that civility and being cordial has been entirely a one way street with the ex. So I have sent pictures of the kid's birthday parties or special accomplishments in the spirit of coparenting, but it's very evident that such cordial behavior is pretty one sided.

We don't communicate much outside of what is necessary. I just have to make it minimal again and sit far away when going to karate. Either that or just head out if she's there.

A few months ago, her mom decided to bring something to my attention that she wasn't happy about right after one of the karate classes. She wasn't happy that my mom doesn't think WXW walks on water.

I sent her the following response:

XMIL,

I don�t normally write you or communicate with you, but feel that I should address what happened yesterday.

I will not have a debate about my family when the kids are anywhere nearby, which is why I chose not to say anything last night. If you feel you need to address something, then feel free to call me at any time, but I will not discuss any issues of contention when the kids are standing nearby. Confronting me there was wrong on your part and shouldn�t have happened.

That being said, you feel you need an explanation on why my mother feels the way she does.

I do not want to dredge up what should be obvious. Keep in mind as I explain this I am personally well past all of these issues, but it�s really very simple and it boils down to this (from my mother�s perspective):

Your daughter cheated on her son while he was at war. She went out with 5 different men while leaving the kids with a nanny. She physically cheated on him with one or more of them. She then ambushed him with a divorce the day he got off the plane. She took his kids, the majority of their things and effectively ended his military career. She left him an emotionally broken man, without a job, separated from his kids, and financially broke.

Adding insult to injury was the complete lack of support from you or FIL in this situation and a concerted effort on both of your parts to fund her legal efforts to keep her son away from his children and get him out of their lives. From her perspective, you put her son on the defensive and attempted to smear him with false abuse allegations. She feels you and WXW treated her son like a criminal.

I in no way deserved the treatment I got from either you or from WXW.

WXW has never once apologized or showed any remorse for the way she treated me or what she did to me 5 years ago.

I finally accepted the fact that she will never see what she did nor will she ever apologize. She has somehow rationalized her behavior in her mind and shows no remorse or conscience over what she did.

While I may have forgiven, I have not forgotten. I deal with her for the kids, but would otherwise have absolutely nothing to do with her in any way shape or form if it wasn�t for them. I deal with her with complete indifference.

All I can tell you is that the kids, the boys especially, hear things and interpret them in their own ways which are often grossly out of context in how they were said. I�ve experienced this personally and know of things supposedly said by WXW or BF which have been presented to me out of context.

This is certainly the case with the comments made about the garage code.

As far as anything else goes, I can only do something about things I witness or am there for. What I know and what I�ve seen is that my mom has never once said anything to the kids while I have been there and she knows better than to do so.

But if you expect her to change her feelings about WXW, then you�re hopelessly na�ve. If the roles were reversed and I had cheated on her with 5 different women and then took the kids from her and left her broke and living off the charity of friends, and subsequently dragged her through an expensive legal battle then I�m sure your opinion of me would be much more negative. She literally feels sick to see you or WXW or anyone in your family. She can�t simply set aside your efforts to destroy my relationship with the kids 3 years ago.

This is how SHE feels. As I said before, this is all a non issue for me now.

Please do not say anything about my mother to me again and do not ever confront me about something you don�t like while the kids are anywhere nearby. My response will be the same: silence.

Do not mistake my civility for friendly feelings. Everything I do is for them. This means interacting with their mother and her family and finding solutions to problems in a manner that benefits the kids, even if it means putting on a friendly front for them while you and WXW are around.

I can look in the mirror and know I was faithful to my vows and did what I felt was right at the time to try and save my marriage. I wake up every day with a clear conscience.

I put all this behind me long ago because I have to. I know that if any of the boys was treated by their wife in the manner that WXW treated me that I would take much longer to simply �let it go�. It�s not that simple and you as a parent should understand that.

The greatest regret I have and one that I have wanted to apologize for is for a comment I made to FIL 3 years ago shortly after BF moved in. Outside of that, my greatest sin was to fight for my kids, who benefit from having me in their lives.

That�s something I don�t regret at all.

HTLD

Wouldnt parallel parenting be better and less stressful than co-parenting? You arent a team any more after all and there's no reason to communicate with her.

I get that you have put a lot behind you and are civil - but she clearly hasn't and isnt.

It cant be a good thing for your kids to hear you constantly being referred to as the enemy - or seeing her whip herself up into a frenzy.

She might focus more on herself and on her own parenting if you arent around. no need to be a target is there?

Oh dear, it sound very much like you need Plan B to me...

I will stay in Plan B probably for life with my STBxWH and his entire family, even after divorce.

The couple of times I have broken my Plan B with any of them, it is upsetting, sucks a lot of emotional energy from me and I end up dwelling over a lot of negative stuff all over again.

The wayward and usually much of their family paints the BS out to be the bad guy in order to minimize their guilt over the wayward's bad behavior. There is no sense in arguing with these people. They are just going to rationalize and justify everything away, just like the wayward.

I recently saw my POSWH at court and I shunned him completely and turned my back on him any time we were in the same area. I will probably never talk to him directly again. If there is no way to avoid your XWW and her bf at events like karate, then do not sit near them and if they try to talk to you turn your back to them or move away.

I just can't imagine dealing with a wayward at all, even after divorce, HTLD. Please please reconsider the benefits of Plan B. You can at least give it a try and see what happens. I think you will be surprised....

Susie,

I hear you, but that's not really a possibility with little ones after D.

I would have absolutely nothing to do with her, ever, if it wasn't for my kids.

But seriously, I'm past the feelings of disgust and dread with her. I've explained to my family that her being around is like the pizza guy coming over. I really feel nothing.

I'm remarried and I'm very happy.

But I will go to the parallel parenting idea more so. We've been pretty much doing that. It's being around each other at the karate events that has led to the issues that pop up.

What I have to do is simply ignore her and her family from here on when I go to these things.

The big lesson I learned is that civility and friendly banter is just not ever in the equation with the ex. The claws will come out at some point for some minute reason that only she feels is important.

So I basically have to just go on and have the "it's business" attitude with her.

On a different and unrelated note: I taught my DS7 to ride his bike today. He screamed for his training wheels at the start and by the end of it he was riding around the block. Still a bit wobbly, but doing it nonetheless. Very happy as a dad right now.

The pizza delivery guy now that is funny.

But above is special. He will always remember that. I still remember when my dad taught me.

Given all this, why on earth would you tell such psychopaths they are free to call you up and discuss it with you?

Personally, I don't feel that I have to answer for my actions to every lunatic on the planet, especially people who obviously hate me.

I wouldn't try to prove anything to such people. You won't succeed. You'll just hurt yourself.

Of course not. But there is a HTLD to save. And he has children who need him.

Contact with lunatics is not in your best interest, not in your wife's best interest, not in your children's best interest.

You aren't gaining your children anything by this.

And anyway, if I were this woman who hated you so much (the MIL) if I opened my email and saw one from you (or saw a personal letter in the mail) I would probably throw it away before reading it.

That's what Plan B is for. You're going daffy trying to handle all these toxic people.

Actually, the reason I sent the messages was because they had this delusion that the reason I was friendly and amicable around them was because things were just hunky dory with us and we were all getting along splendidly.

THAT is why I sent it. My email to MIL clearly hit a nerve with her since she had this image in her head that I was just fine and dandy interacting with all of them.

So the email I sent pretty much put her in her place. She's been cold to me anytime we've been around each other ever since I sent this, which suits me just fine.

And you guys are right. I don't have to interact with them at all. I have been putting up a front for my kids over the last year. I know they've enjoyed it and they have been clueless that there was any friction. Our D happened when they were too young to remember.

I've informed the ex that I won't listen to the opinions of anyone else regarding the kids. She can be the one to talk to me if she needs to.

The big lesson for me is to just withdraw.

Who's putting up a front?

The kids know better... even if you did D while they were too young to remember, they will put up a front as well.

Consistency and honesty rather than placation will serve you better, sir.

So I'm now wondering how to interact from this point forward. Plan B isn't possible nor is it called for. There is no marriage to save. There is no LB to protect from being drained. There is no pain caused to me by seeing her.

Up till now, if she came to get the kids at my place I'd let her into the doorway to wait while the kids came up to go.

We went trick or treating together with the kids over the past 2 years. We'd interact about the same as you'd interact with a stranger that had a cold you didn't want to catch.

But her behavior at the karate classes has seriously ticked me off. On the one hand I want to be there to watch the kids. On the other, I don't want any more incidents. The nights I go to karate are my nights. In other words, I pick the kids up for the weekend and take them to the class before we head home. I live 30 minutes from there, so going home isn't a real possibility.

My thought is to take them, then leave if she shows and either go to my car or go shopping for stuff I need for the weekend.

No more nice nice polite interactions with her or her boyfriend (not an OM).

I'm also considering putting an end to the joint parent/teacher conferences.

So 95% of our interactions over the past 2 years have been tame and cordial. It's the third incident regarding karate that has me rethinking the whole way I interact with her.

Any thoughts on this? Those of you that have divorced, how do you handle interactions with your ex?

Instead of calling it Plan B, why not just call it what we mean, "Plan NO CONTACT."

My sister has this same situation with her XWH. She still lives in the house they purchased together, but she bought him out. She drives the car they purchased, because she bought it. So, to her XWH treats those items as HIS still. She tries to do things so it is best for the children, but it sends mixed messages and it actually causes real issues when they deal with each other. I have often told her that she should, at MOST, interact through email only, and not answer any of his emails for at least 24 hours.

I know that there is no marriage to save, it's about your sanity now.

I wouldn't say it's about my sanity. It's more about not being a doormat.

When she puts me in that situation in public, I don't respond because I don't want to escalate things. The kids are there, so I can't just walk away if they're looking, which was the situation one time.

I think I'm just going to try to leave if she tries to talk to me in any way about anything that isn't relevant.

And if anyone other than her tries to talk to me, then I will just walk away.

My DW says she'll go with me from now on. She just couldn't that night due to a school function.

I think it's important that you remain civil with the mother of your children for the children's sake. That doesn't mean you have to sit by her at karate class or school programs. Perhaps you could schedule separate conferences if the teacher agrees.

It will be better for the kids if you agree on parenting issues, but I realize that isn't always possible. Don't withdraw from your kids or their events, if you can somehow tolerate the interactions with your FW. Your kids will notice your absence, and it will hurt them.

If the situation is simply intolerable, you may have to negotiate
an agreement that each of you attends the lesson every other week. Good luck trying to work through it, dad. Sounds like you have done a good job, even if it's really hard.

Freefall, many of us here disagree that we would need to remain "civil" with our WS's or XWSs. And I will tell you that the children feel the tension, and they see more than you realize. They then get told that mom and dad get along, and it's all okay, which teaches them that their feelings were wrong(but they are being lied to, how confusing).

HTLDs, I only mentioned about it helping your sanity, because I have seen you be a pillar of strength for the member of this board. For you to be bothered by something, it isn't trivial.

If your DW can come with you, will the 2 of you be able to stay calm, and not escalate the sitch? I would hate for it to become a sitch in which ALL of the adults in the children's lives get tangled up in a heap of mess. The children need someone they can model their own behaviours after. I think we all know whose behaviours I believe they should model.

Freefall, Scotland,

You�re both right. I say that as a child of a divorce situation. My parents divorced when I was 25 and here have been some very stressful moments for me when my parents have been around each other at major events. I can tell you that as a child, it is important to have the parents be civil around each other, even if they don�t hang out together. Simply being around each other without arguing is a big deal and great to have as a kid because, as a kid, we love both sets of parents even if one of them committed a terrible wrong in the past.

My dad was a WH. He married his mistress, whom he later divorced. She�s out of all our lives. He remarried someone that we all get along with well enough.

He can�t undo what he did, but we rebuilt our relationship after the OW was out of his life.

Thing is, my mom hasn�t quite grasped the idea that he�s no longer her H and has no right to fight him on certain things or demand things from him. So this has created some very tense moments for us kids at certain events, such as weddings because she confronts him on some things there (unrelated to his waywardness). She�ll tell him he should help us financially, and get all emotional and stress us all out. Thing is he does these things. She doesn�t like that he doesn�t visit us enough or is involved in our lives that much so she�ll call him out on it at events where that stuff can be tabled for later discussion.

I can�t imagine what it would have been like to grow up with this type of stress at every event, sport, or function while I was growing up.

When my ex comes at me, I stay quiet. I don�t engage back, even though I want to yell at her at the top of my lungs and tell her to go to he77. But I get cornered at these events and I can�t simply leave because the kids are supposed to come home with me after their classes. I say as little as possible when she comes at me.

I�ve decided that I�ll sit in their classes and not talk to the ex unless it involves something regarding the kids school or medical stuff. Outside of that, there will be no discussion on anything. Even the other stuff I can simply say, �email me about it, I don�t want to talk about it here.�

If my wife can�t be with me, I�ll simply slip out and go read a book elsewhere or go shopping for stuff if she shows up.

*raises hand*

I disagree.

And I am here to tell you that this doesn't work with a wayward. Their version of "civil" is them doing whatever they want and throwing a fit if you don't do everything they want.

Example? I have exclusive use of the house and had agreed to allow STBxWH in one time to pick up his tools and pictures, etc. I packed up EVERYTHING and set aside plenty of time for him to get it all, left with the kids, and had someone here to supervise him.

He rifled through the boxes for the good stuff, told the person I had here that I could do whatever I wanted with the rest (even though I made it clear I expected him to take it all and throw away his own garbage). Within a couple of days, he is demanding to come back in because he doesn't have something and is demanding that I be "civil" with him.

Waywards!!! Plan B is the only way to keep your sanity...

That is my WH in a nutshell. Susie I really think it is because they think we are chit without them. Because we are chit without them we will sit around on Friday nights eating a quart of ice cream chased down with bon bons. Then they think the only company we will keep are 50 cats and seven birds that talk.

My very wayward husband wants me to bow down to him and be his wonderful friend because well that is what the right thing to do is Tough~.

"Our children are too young to understand. What are you trying to brainwash them Tough? When they are older they will want to come live with me Tough and then you will be all alone. You plan to brainwash them now Tough so they chose you."

Susie,

You're fresh into this process and technically still married. I'm almost 5 years past it. If I find any of her stuff now I can simply throw it away.

Like it or not, you will have to deal with him after your D or you will have to miss out on events your kids will be a part of because he will be there.

That means that school events, sports, etc, are things which you're going to have to either choose to attend or to leave since you don't wish to interact with him.

Believe me, I can understand the feeling of not wanting to see the WXW. But you eventually get to a point where if your WH shows up to something it will have no emotional impact on you. You'll really care less that he's there.

My folly has come in thinking that there could be conversation at the kids events that dealt with kid things, but that is a big mistake. Teacher stuff can be dealt with at p/t conferences. Doc stuff can be coordinated via email.

There just needs to be a standard I need to get back to which basically said that unless there is blood on the floor or someone about to die then there was no need to interact at all and everything else can be done via email.

HTLD, I would simply tell her by email that you don't feel comfortable discussing private matters in a public venue, and so won't be doing it anymore. I would sit away from them at the karate classes. If they sit next to you, just say hello, and ignore them after that. If they start talking to you, simply say sorry but you're not discussing anything. If they persist, stick your fingers in your ears. Seems childish, right? But you'd be amazed how well it works.

HTLDs, do you still feel indifferent to you XWW when you go places where she might be?

Couldn't you also say, "I would appreciate if we didn't sit together."

Scotland,

I take the kids to their karate class because they have it on a night that I get them for the weekend. SHE chooses to come on a night she doesn�t have them. I�m happy if I don�t see her, but she�s the one coming to where she knows I�ll be, not the other way around. I had them fulltime in the summer and she would still show up to the classes whenever I had them.

The classes aren�t around the corner for me. They�re around the corner for her since she chose the school right by her home.

You bring up a point, however, that is reversed. I loved having the daycare because I could get the kids without seeing her at all. I went weeks without interacting with her at all.

Now, with the current change to the daycare, I�ll have to see her on Fridays since she takes them to her home.

She is the one that chooses to come to the karate classes on the nights she doesn�t have them.

Why she does this, I don�t know. I�m happy to not interact with her at all. In fact, the only reason I didn�t invoke the part of our order that mandates her to bring the kids to me on Fridays is precisely because I didn�t want to see her in any way.

I don�t think there is any motive to any of this on her part. In her mind she feels I should worship the ground she walks on for working and taking the kids to things. I should be honored to be in her presence (in her mind) and see her for the great mother she is (she does the job).

I honestly feel she�s starving to have some degree of approval from me. This is why it was a bit shocking for her mom to have the blinders lifted when I told her that I would have nothing to do with either her or her daughter if it wasn�t for the kids. In fact, many of her email rants to me focus on how I don�t seem to appreciate all she does.

Reading: The dojo is small and has very few seats for parents.

Honestly, it�s just time for me to back out if she shows or sit across the room if I can.

Maybe you should wear earphones and listen to an iPod.

What I would do to have my WH active in my kids lives. He talks a good talk.

"Well Tough I would take the kids full time, but you refuse, so don't tell me I am a horrible father."

When we were trying to setup visitation. He made a big stink about how he made it clear he wants to be part of their lives.

Currently he sees them every other weekend (Friday night to 1700 on Sundays)
Here is our email exchange:

Me: "I would love for you to come two days during the week to watch their gymnastics/soccer/piano lessons/swimming. It would be great if you would help me taxi them because I cannot get them from one to the other because of the time overlap.I am always late."

WH: "I cannot make it down during the week. I have to work my 8-5 job and then I have my second job Tuesday-Thursday. How about I take them every weekend."

Me: "You can have them every other weekend"

WH: "So you are the reason I am not seeing my children. If you would go along with this visitation I could see my kids more. You are so selfish."

I keep praying he will wake up and smell the roses. I so enjoy the time with my kids during their activities.

Last night I was at the pool with my eight year old practicing for her swim test tonight. I was next to her as she was crawl stroking up and down. Her little body exhausted, but still going strong. I thought to myself I hope she remembers these moments. When I am next to her encouraging her to be strong, work hard, keep going, don't quit ...

Itistoughlove,

I wouldn�t settle for the arrangement your WH has. I would want, as a father, to have 50/50.

What I see with you, though, is a mistake in expecting anything from him.

Your sentiments mirror those of my WXW. She likes going to the karate classes to watch them. I do the same when they�re with me for the night, but I otherwise don�t go and sit in those classes because I�m spending the time with my DW on those nights.

My WXW feels that I�m not involved enough during weekdays, despite the fact that I live 30 minutes away and despite the fact that she originally wanted sole physical and legal custody. She gripes and moans about the school work she does with them and the fact that she takes them to karate twice a week. Well, it was her choice. I�d do those things if they were with me during the week but they�re not. I asked for that, but I didn�t get it.

I get them fulltime in the summer, which gives me a taste of the school year schedule minus the homework. It�s not easy, but I enjoy it.

You are hanging onto the hope that he will come to these classes and show a sign of his old self and restore the family.

You would love it if your WH would come to his senses and restore what you�ve lost. I felt the same at your stage of things.

But it�s been 4 years for me and the idea of being with the WXW is not one I�d consider at all. For starters, I�m remarried to an awesome woman.

As far as your WH goes, he needs more time with the kids if you expect him to be an involved dad. Hard to do that on an every other weekend schedule. He should be the one asking for that.

The day will come when you feel the same towards your ex as I do towards mine. I want nothing to do with mine. I could go the rest of my life without seeing her and it wouldn�t affect me one way or the other.

But you do see her and it does affect you so I am glad that you are here coming up with a way to remove yourself from her drama.

HTLD, can you bring someone with you to these classes so your X/W and her loser B/F can see how a woman with class acts?

You have to pity the guy, I mean ....even I'd feel threatened by your awesomeness as a husband/dad if I was compared to you

itstoughlove, I take back what I said on this thread and posted on your other one.

RMX, Scotland: My DW will go with me, as she normally does. She just hasn't been there when my ex has decided to confront me of something.

I'm going to remove the drama from my life.

I just checked what CS would be with the new numbers taking into account the changes. I basically end up paying about the same, but her changes to daycare let her pocket over half of what she was paying before.

Not worth the hassle of going to court over and the stress involved.

Do you get receipts from the new babysitter? My concern, and I saw someone else mention it, is that your WW isn't paying her friend what she claims she is, causing you to pay more than you should be.

And, have you thought about going for 50/50 custody? Or are you okay with the arrangement you have now?

I'm ok with the current arrangement. I get 155 days a year. It's solid time with the kids, too. I get all the quality time with them.

She has them during the school year during weekdays. I get the weekends.

I have them all summer and she gets every other weekend.

I checked the cost of the daycare with the daycare. She doesn't pay her neighbor when the neighbor has to step in.

I just ran all the numbers. Even taking into account my pay raise over the years and assuming she has none, the drop in daycare costs offsets my pay raise.

So in the end the judge would likely not see enough of a financial change to change CS and if they did adjust it it wouldn't be by much more. In fact, it could be less, but not much less.

So it's not worth the stress or hassle of litigating. If she's smart she won't. My gut says she thinks she could go after my wife's income, but the law protects her income and doesn't permit it to be used for CS calcs.

It sounds like through this thread you have found a solution that will work for your situation and that's great.

However, I don't like the message that you may be giving to lurkers here (that it is impoosible to do Plan B with small children or is only necessary when trying to save the marriage or not necessary after D).

I know a few MBers who are still in Plan B with their xWS and xWS's family years after the D and say they will stay there indefinitely.

I 100% KNOW I will stay in Plan B indefinitely myself.

Even if you cannot avoid seeing your xWS at an event, with a Plan B state of mind, at the very least, you wouldn't bother trying to argue or reason with the wayward or their family (such as your notes you posted in the beginning of this thread) and you would do whatever necessary to avoid seeing or communicating with these people. I will never talk or even look at my STBXWH at an event again. He will not approach me and if he does he will get my back or I will move away from him.

I will always use an IM and if there are any legal issues regarding CS or visitation, I will not bother trying to reason with him. he will just hear from my lawyer.

IMO this is the best plan of action for anyone trying to personally recover after D with a WS...or even anyone years after a D who is getting sucked back into the wayward's drama/antics...

Plan B is intended to be protection for the BS. It is for insulation from abuse.

There will come a point in your healing where you feel indifferent towards your ex. It is years away, but it will come. You'll also realize that your kids will eventually feel neutral in everything (for now). So when events come, they will want to see you both there.

They may even ask you to come to something you'd rather not attend because the ex will be there, but you go for them.

Susie, you're VERY fresh into this process. Yes, Plan B is the way to go if you wish to follow MB and eventually save your marriage. But small kids do make this difficult, especially if custody matters with courts come into play. The courts want to see cooperation for the sake of the children and they could care less about why the marriage failed.

This is especially true as a man, who has mom bias to deal with in court.

So, if you're still married, Plan B is good. Follow it and use it to protect yourself from abuse.

Eventually, however, you'll feel about your ex the way you feel about a co worker you rarely talk to. You'll feel very little about being around them.

the feelings get stirred, however, when it comes to diagreements over the kids. That removes the neutral feelings and brings disgust into the picture as you deal with this person you don't like.

You're too fresh into this process. You will eventually have to deal with the ex.

Plan B is not applicable after D. I can be, if you feel you want to save things eventually, but it doesn't really apply if you have no desire to do so.

At that point, you have to deal with the ex. This is ESPECIALLY true as a man dealing with mom bias in courts.

I think posters such as Mulan, would disagree with you. She is in Plan B with her XWH.

If I get a D, and my WH is still in his A with OW(or if he is a turd) I will continue Plan B for life, if necessary.

If that means that WH misses out on events for the children, his loss. If it means I miss things, well, I'll deal with that too. No event is worth dealing with a turd and keeping yourself in that drama.

HTLDs, as much as you say you are indifferent to your XWW, I don't see it as indifference. She makes you angry, that's not indifferent. Do I believe that you would be willing to reconcile with her, ever? NOPE.

Scotland,

I'd have to destroy my current DW, destroy my relationship with my parents, and then ask her to become someone she's not. I'd have to give up a marriage with someone that is infinitely more compatible with me and that I love dearly.

No, getting irritated by your ex is completely normal. I know folks that have been divorced for years that still get a bit stirred by something stupid the ex does. Doesn't mean they want them back. But it's not like you're ever completely indifferent to someone that betrayed you

I don't know a single person that has ever divorced that hasn't had their ex drive them crazy at one point or another.

She just responded. Wrote a book of justifications and rationalizations.

I haven't responded. My only response would be a giant DJ. I honestly don't care about DJ's at this point, but responding is also not worth my time.

I'd rather chat with you and the other MB folks as well.

I may have misread your post. I read your post, as you wrote it, as saying that I wouldn't be willing to ever reconcile with her (which is correct). But do I admit that she makes me mad sometimes?

Yes.

Yes, what I was saying was that you don't want to reconcile with your XWW EVER. I don't think that suggesting Plan B to you was ever about that. It was simply about removing oneself from DRAMA. In removing yourself, you also remove your children from it too.

She just wrote me. I'd like your opinions on my response. I had a much longer and angrier response before, but I narrowed it down to this (I'll spare you the book she wrote.)

My answer:

Good God, you wrote a book.

Bottom line is this:

I have every right to ask if this impacts CS and if your employment status has changed. Asking about it doesn't mean I'm going to seek a change, but I have every right to ask about it. YOU made the assumption I would seek a change legally. I never said I would.

If BF EVER acts that way again I will seek legal papers against him. It wasn't "just talking" as you portray. He was huffing and puffing and being belligerent. I would not have been surprised if he took a swing at me. He's been warned and I promise you that I will seek legal action if he steps out of line again. The sensei may not have heard it, but the parent sitting next to us sure did and told me afterwards she felt bad for me.

Diminish his demanor all you want. If it was so calm, then why were you holding him back and telling him that it wasn't the place?

I could care less what BF has done in the last 4 years since being with you. He has ZERO input into anything. ZERO. I don't have to honor his opinion on anything and really don't care what it is or have to hear it. I don't know why he does what he does. It's a complete mystery to me as a man.

I'm glad he's good with the kids, but I can care less what he thinks or his opinion on anything. If I cared, I'd ask.

You wonder why I don't come to more karate classes. The bottom line is that i don't want to see you, interact with you, hear your voice, or see your presence in any way. The only reason I do so is for the kids. I otherwise would have NOTHING to do with you and could care less whatever happened to you. Secondary to that is the distance. It's not 5 minutes up the road for me like it is for you and it's none of your business what I do on my weeknights.

When I've shared with you my difficulties recently, I did so only because it might have impacted my ability to pay you exactly on the dates you wanted. That's the only reason. But you're right. I have no need to share those things with you and won't from now on.

Don't ever bring any grievance to me again at karate. I will not acknowledge or respond.

In fact, don't speak to me unless there is something truly important that can't wait to be addressed via email, which is just about every single situation under the sun that isn't an immediate emergency.

Wait at minimum 24 hours before responding to her, ever.

I would simply say,

"I won't speak to you in person about the children anymore. Please email only pertinent information to me. I hope you respect my decision to communicate this way, as it is the best for all parties involved, especially the children.

Thank you."

That's it, that's all. Also, remember that you are going to have to hold yourself up to this deal as well. No talking to her about the kids in person.

Just my .02. Take it as it is intended, to remove drama from your life. Of course, if you are like my sister, you crave drama. I don't get that from you though.

There is a reason you posted this in SAA and not in After Divorce or whatever.

Because your XW is still a wayward and it's more than just irritating & entitlement...waywards are selfish, abusive, will rationalize away anything that you say & do not have you or your children's best interests at heart.

These communications are just going to frustrate you and suck emotional energy out of you and get you...well, nowhere.

I wouldn't bother sending her another letter other than what Scotty said. Good luck!

DW came home from work. She read the War and Peace epic my ex wrote. She read my proposed response.

She went one further than Scotland. She said don't bother.

DW encouraged me to respond to what happened and make some points that needed to be made, but said that saying anything further is just going to go into one ear and out the other so just let it be.

If anything, the WXW admitted to confronting me at karate in her email and admitted that her bf was talking to me. She tries to downplay it and tell me how bf has taken care of the kids and cleaned diapers and been there, etc and gets upset and therefore has a right to opine.

No point in debating. She doesn't get it.

You're all correct about not responding.

The thing about exes is they know what buttons to push. The effectiveness of pushing them gets lost over time, but sometimes they touch the right one which gets you upset.

Thanks to all for their inputs.

B/F doesn't have any leg to stand on, especially since he's never decided to upgrade to step-dad.

and EVEN then... he still doesn't have a leg to stand on.

B/Fs are not buyers, but freeloaders or at best.. renters

Honestly, he's an enigma to me. I don't know why a young man shacks up with a woman with 3 kids at his age. He's young. He's not a bad looking guy.

He most definately has white knight syndrome. My ex is the queen of drama. I had initially crafted a response to her along the lines of, "I do get how hard you've had it. I was married to you for four years. So I remember how you had the hardest pregnancy any woman has ever had in the history of the planet. I remember how you had cancer every year. I remember how nobody around you was supportive or understood you. I lived it."

But I didn't send it.

He treats the kids well, which is all I can ask. Why they haven't gotten married or why he puts up with the situation is a mystery to me.

I don't understand why my DW does it. I've told her as much on a few occasions. I tell her that I can't do that what she does in her shoes.

Heck, I wouldn't marry me. I'm a guy with 3 kids, a toxic ex, and a modest CS payment. I have only one free weekend a month and my summer is with the kids fulltime when she has that time off.

It's a mystery to me, but I'm glad she loves me. I need to bring her flowers today.

Is your cooking any good?

Actually, yes it is.

This is where I will disagree with you in the extreme.

Your children will NEVER feel "neutral" about any of this. They will still be very much attached to both parents. And this is exactly why you must never, ever give them a false picture of how things are.

Of course they want to see both parents at events. No doubt they'd like to see both parents married and living together, too. But that's not how it is.

If both parents can go to kid's events and not interact with each other at all - well, maybe. But the last thing you should give your children is the false image of their divorced parents "being civil for the children."

Why not? Well, two reasons:

1) No matter what you say, your interacting nicely with your WXW at family events WILL give your kids the hope that you will get back together. So what if you're married to someone else now? You got divorced from their own mother, didn't you? People get divorced all the time.

2) Even if you can convince the kids that there is zero hope of your ever getting back together, you are still sending them the message that part-time families are okay and that's it's perfectly okay to move between families anytime you want on an hour-by-hour, day-to-day basis. You can drop in on one for the some nice family time, and then you can simply go back to another one for some nice family time there, too. This is an absolutely terrible message to send to your children. Families are FULL TIME or not at all, and if they are not then you can look forward to seeing your own children model this behaviour with their own future families because that's exactly what they saw you do.

I don't think you are getting us here. Obviously, your WXW is complaining and wants your approval so she can feel good about what she's done (you know, nuke her own family.) The question remains: Why are you hearing one word of her complaining in the first place?

Your response should be:

Nothing whatsoever.

This is what I do not understand. By interacting with her like this, you are only feeding the drama and giving her exactly what she wants: Your Attention.

You are only making things far, far, far worse FOR YOUR CHILDREN by continuing to interact with your WXW like this. Call it Plan B, call it Plan No Contact, call it Plan Ham Sandwich, call it whatever you like - but until you Stop Interacting with WXW, you are only making things far worse and even jeopardizing your current marriage.

I mean, if I had a husband, it would sure as hell bother me if he was writing lengthy e-mails trying to "reason with" the ex-wife who keeps trying and trying and trying to get attention and approval from him.

On a serious note, I am so glad you weighed in, Mulan. Was hoping you would...

Mulan,

Don�t know if you caught the rest of my thread.

My wife, and my mom, have both had to prod me into responding to defend myself. They felt a response was called for after the last incident, if anything, to document what occurred and to defend myself against baseless attacks.

I was reluctant at first, but went ahead and wrote a response.

As far as responding to her epic rant: I didn�t respond. I shared what my DW felt about responding.

This is a dead issue for both of us.

As far as what I tell my kids: I�ve been very up front. I�ve told them I didn�t want a divorce. I told them that marriage is a promise made between a man and a woman and God. I have been very open that mommy didn�t want to be married anymore and she split up the family.

I�m not sugarcoating anything for them.

But I�m also not hanging out with the ex as if we�re great friends. Quite the opposite. I�m fairly stoic around her and don�t say much of anything, even when she tries to argue with me.

We don�t talk at all outside of discussions regarding the kids medical needs and scheduling issues. That�s it. Unless, of course, she wants to rant about something irrelevant.

And I did walk out when she and her boyfriend tried to continue their conversation.

The WXW had a very odd request for me yesterday. Her grandmother is dying. She wants her and I to meet alone without my DW and without her BF, to break the news to the kids. She says we need to set our differences aside in order to be there for my DD.

I pointed out that we should tell all 3 kids, not just DD and that I didn�t understand why DW and BF couldn�t be a part of this.

This is on the heels of a session about DS where she went on a long ramble about how I show the kids movies she feels are inappropriate and how my DW should restrict and interfere with what I show the kids.

On top of all of this is the issue with the daycare where she now insists that I come to her house to get the kids.

My DW pointed out, along with some others, that having me there isn�t really about DD, but about comforting WXW.

What I know is that if the situation were reversed that I wouldn�t even think about involving WXW in telling my kids nor would I ask that she come while we excluded my DW and her BF. I also know that if the situation with daycare was reversed that I�d pay for the Friday drop ins in order to not have to interact with her at all.

Anyone here make any sense of this behavior? Can someone really be so narcissistic that she can�t imagine that others would be uncomfortable around her?

Told the WXW in a diplomatic way that she needs to handle this on her end with her family and I'll support the kids on my end.

She surprisingly didn't write me back telling me I was an insensitive a$$ or anything else.

I just got this from the WXW. Any suggestions on response? My gut says to say nothing.

Quick background: I was showing the kids pics and videos from when they were babies. They were having a blast and it somehow came out somewhere that Mommie and I were once married, which was surprise news to my boys. This naturally led to the question of why we weren't anymore and I told them the truth. "Mommy didn't want to be married anymore and wanted a divorce." Which naturally led to another questions, "And you didn't want one?" Which was "no". I then explained that marriage is a promise made between a man and woman and God.

As far as movies go, I just found out she had them watch certain PG-13 movies (while making a huge fuss over the few I've shown them).

I'm looking for suggestions on a response, if any.

Here's her message:

I don't want to start an argument here, but I do need to ask you about this. I just need to know how this came about and what exactly was said. Two things...why do the kids say the divorce is my fault? Also, why have they been encouraged to keep things from me (for example, like if they watch kung pao again just don't tell me) and say that if they do share the things they aren't supposed to that "daddy will get in trouble with mommy?"

I'm trying to handle this between you and I without the big arguments, so please refrain from making nasty or smart comments back about this. I've been told some things and I figured it's best to approach you about it to see what's going on and what was said.




Here is my draft response:

I won't get into an argument about this either.

The boys were surprised to learn that we were once married. They have all asked why we aren't married anymore. I told them the truth. I told them you didn't want to be married anymore and you wanted a divorce and pursued one.

As far as the other thing goes, *edit* have asked to watch it again and I've told them no and that you think it's inappropriate for them to watch and that you weren't happy they watched it. This isn't something discussed recently, so I don't know why it's coming up.

I'm not going to get into a discussion about movies with you anymore.
The bottom line on that issue is that I will use my judgment and you use yours.

I recently learned that the kids have seen Real Steel and Transformers:Revenge of the Fallen, which are both PG-13 movies. Personally, I don't care other than the criticism that has come from you regarding the kids seeing movies that you feel are inappropriate.

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

I would tweak it a tad:

This is me, beating the PB dead horse, AGAIN.

I would respond with,
Honestly, this back and forth between the 2 of you helps NO ONE. Plan B is called for, for sure.

Thanks. Good info and suggestions. Scotland, I will go with your response.

I agree with you on Plan B, at least as far as minimizing contact. It's why I posted here first.

She's been the one initiating it lately and I've been very short and to the point on my responses.

I'm never getting burned again. I tried to playing nice, coparenting, isn't it great how we all get along route and I got burned. No more.

From now on it's all business and I'm assuming nothing but the worst from her on everything.

She really crapped on any degree of cooperation we had. Surprisingly, she is surprised by my sudden silence and shortness on everything and can't see the damage she did with her little incident a month ago.

I'm done. No more fake niceness on my end. Cold shoulder from here on out unless I actually have to talk about something.

Good to hear. You're doing the best for yourself and your children.

I was using my IMing skills to only pass on what needed to be said from your letter. Trying to be unemotional as possible.

I really do like the idea of waiting at least 24 hours before responding. I know that I have found my response to anything much more different after having some time to think.

Glad I could help.

Are you in plan B then why are you reading the emails she is sending you?

You're breaking NC. What movies the kids are watching while with you are not an emergency. This is why you are to use an IM.

Why are you lying to your kids?

Yes lying!

Your WW had an affair. Age appropriate tell them mom had a boyfriend when still married to you. It's wrong for husbands/ wives to have girlfriends/boyfriends and go out on dates when they are married. This type of dating is known as having an affair. Your mom had and affair while married to me. Mom left the marriage and divorced me to be with the OM (and use the OM's real name).

Then add that all dating is not bad. Dating between single people, people not married is good dating.

There is no need for you to respond to her question as to what you have told the kids already. She is fishing to do damage control. Stay dark.

Tell the kids the truth. Don't discourage or encourage the kids to tell their mom that they know about the affair and the OM.

When and if she does hear from the kids, just stay dark when WW tries to break plan B NC.

TR,

Thought I responded to this, but it apparently didn�t post. There is no Plan B. There is no OM. There were multiple OM and none of them are a part of her life right now.

We�ve been divorced for almost 5 years now. So NC isn�t an issue and Plan B doesn�t apply. I have no love bank to preserve. I have no affair to try and expedite the end to. I have no desire to ever be with WXW again and I�m happily remarried.

But minimal contact is necessary for a few things: medical issues with the kids, school discipline issues, scheduling issues for visitation and holidays.

Outside of that, my guidance on contact with her is based on what a parenting coordinator said to me. She stated that unless there was blood on the ground and someone about to die, then any contact about any issue could be handled via email. I�ve generally followed that rule. As time went on, however, my friendly nature took over and I became more amicable with the WXW when around the kids. We never crossed into the line of friends. Things simply remained amicable.

That all ended about a month ago and I think it has been killed forever. I won�t fake it anymore. I don�t like her and don�t have to pretend to like her. I don�t have to defend myself about anything.

Her repeated confrontations at the kid�s karate classes have worn thin and I will no longer tolerate them. My response from now on will be complete silence, if I actually stay in the classes.

Plan B doesn�t exist in my situation. She�s like an annoying workmate I have to interact with for a project, but I don�t have to go beyond that.

My mistake was in letting my guard down. Indifference crossed into the realm of amicability, which was a mistake. My WXW still feels she has a right to opine on things about my life and the fact is that she doesn�t and simply hasn�t been told or accepted it.

Well, I will no longer tolerate it. I was at the other extreme of things based on advice I had been given about not escalating conflict and engaging in arguments. Well, it�s true, that I shouldn�t engage in conflicts, but my IC made it clear to me that I have every right to lay out boundaries and stop things when the line is being crossed. So that has been fairly empowering.

My DD9 had a concert at school last night. We headed out to go to it, got good seats in a very crowded room and got to see the concert.

My wife told me when we got there that the WXW would likely grab DD9 as soon as the concert ended and would bolt out of the school.

I came in, saw DD9, took pictures and video from a distance. I know she saw me.

It happened as predicted. The kids ended their songs and sat in the back. As soon as the rest of the show ended, WXW grabbed DD9 and the twins and bolted off.

I tried to make my way out to catch up and they were gone by the time I got outside.

My sis and wife caught up with me and could see my disappointment. I wanted to give her a hug, tell her she did a great job, and take some more pictures. Her friend and his mom came out and wanted to take pictures of DD9 and her friend together. I think they could see my disappointment on my face. I told them that WXW and the kids went home.

I have to admit that even though I expected her to do this that it stung.

I called WXW and left a message saying that I�d like for DD9 to call since I wanted to tell her she did a good job. I also let her know that what she did was pretty crappy and that she�d be livid if the roles were reversed.

She texted me with some sorry excuses, saying that it wasn�t about me and that they left because they needed to get dinner and do homework.

I responded that I was told she would do what she did and that I made the mistake of giving her the benefit of the doubt.

The sad thing is that she�s so self centered and narcissistic that I really don�t think it registered in her brain at any time that I might want to see DD after it was all over to say something.

My sis and wife were angrier than I was. I told them that this is no surprise and was expected. I emphasized that he who angers you controls you and DD9 knows I was there. I got a chance to talk to her on the phone and told her I send a hug through the phone and a congratulations.

That, in the end, is the most important thing. DD9 will remember I was there and that is truly all that matters.

I think she�ll start to notice either the insensitivity of my WXW or that my WXW purposely does such things.

It still hurt, despite being expected. Par for the course.

HTLD,

I've never posted to you before, but I do read along. After reading this, I thought I'd try to lend some support, even though I know it probably won't help much now.

My XW and I divorced when my oldest son was 1. She was cheating with an old BF. They married 2 months after our divorce was final. Actually moved 1000 miles from me 2 days after the divorce. That was all a long time ago. My X has had 3 affairs that I know of, since then. And yup, she's still married to that same guy she cheated with on me.

3 years later they moved back and my son was calling someone else "Dad". Thru the years my X pulled all kinds of crap like what you just experienced. I never said an ill word about her to my son. I never let my mom say an ill word about my X, even though she wanted to. I figured, eventually, my son will figure it out. I just continued to be the best dad I could be, just like you're doing.

Fast forward to today. My son has moved 3 states away. My W and I were planning on visiting him for a long Labor Day weekend. A couple days before we were to leave, my middle son's (first with current W) car blew up so with the expense of a new car and my middle son not having transportation, we reluctantly postponed our trip. I called my oldest and told him the bad news and he said "that's ok, I'll come home instead".

Hang with me, there's a point here.

He came home late the Thurs before Labor Day. Stayed with us until Sunday when he left to go see his grandmother (my mom) and my brother and his cousins at my mom's weekly Sunday Brunch. My mom lives pretty close to my X while I live about 3 hours away. I rode along with him as I was going to borrow my mom's car for a week or so until I could buy a used car to replace my middle son's that blew up. We spent a nice afternoon with my family and when my son was getting ready to leave, he said to me, "I need gas, but I think I'll wait to get it until I get an hour or so towards home. I'd hate it if my mom or brother saw me at the gas station and then I'd have to make up some excuse why I didn't go see them when I was home."

I know this was long, but the point is, my son gets it. He talks in not so glowing terms about his mom and step dad virtually every time he's home. He honestly thinks his mom is unstable (and I don't think he's too far off). He's far closer to my side of the family, even though she used to bad mouth me to him, complain about the CS I paid not being enough, blah, blah, blah. And he lived his whole life listening to that.

I know it ticks you off. I know it hurts. I can remember many times crying after dropping him off after my weekend. But now, he's MY SON, even though she tried her best to make sure I was painted as a demon.

He figured it out on his own, just as I suspect your child(ren) will also.

H4U

Thanks. I appreciate that very much. It's what I keep telling myself.

The kids will figure things out on their own. I only hope that they can see through her manipulation in the future, because she is the Yoda of manipulation.

Has anyone ever had a WXW seek constant approval from the BXH?

Here's what happened:

Kids came to my home after spring break. They didn't have their backpacks. DD9 started to worry, in an overly exaggerated child manner, that she would get in trouble for not having her stuff for school.

So she grabbed my phone without me knowing and started trying to call the WXW. She called her several times, left messages, and texted.

I found out she was doing this, sent a message to WXW about what DD9 had done, and simply asked if she would be stopping by with the kids' stuff.

WXW texts back that she is coming and wanted to talk to me.

DS7 is on new meds, so I figured it could be about that, but I prepared for the worst.

She showed up, gave the kids their stuff, and then asked to talk to me. I go onto the porch, kids go inside, and she basically says the following, which she wrote in an email, but it is a basic repeat of what she said on the porch:

"Regarding coming by your house last night, I think a lot of what I was trying to say got confused. I�ve been meaning to discuss with you about it and hadn�t had the chance until last night. I feel like quite often that if things don�t work out somehow (like meeting up the day of the race or a few other incidents in the past) that you get upset with me, call me rude, or say things like I don�t think of others and only myself.

It seems like a lot of the time you view my actions as intentional or not considering anyone else and it frustrates me. Like on the race day, we had gone into the mall that day before hearing anything from you about heading back or toward my home. Any text you sent after the race wasn�t seen since I had no signal in the stores. Yes, you had sent a message saying you were heading my way, but u never received anything back confirming I was there or even got your message. (I had even mentioned to you previously that we�d probably be out that day since nothing was definite on time.) When we got out of the stores, I received all of your texts and responded immediately. I also got everything together and headed back to meet you as quickly as possible. It was the best I could do on time. You then made comments about it regarding it being rude and expected, like I had done something wrong when it was simply a matter of miscommunication.

I also really get upset when anytime I try to talk to you about these issues regarding having the kids on your time, you immediately start making comments that suggest I consider it a favor I�m doing for you, that the kids are somehow a burden to have more time, that I don�t want them the extra time, etc�.anything along those lines where you start saying that I should consider it a privilege to have the extra time or that not to worry, you won�t ask me anymore. You immediately jump to saying these things the moment I try to discuss these issues with you and it�s not fair�and I�m sure even you know, VERY far from the truth and the point I was trying to make last night. I wasn�t complaining about having them or comparing how much you ask me to watch them versus how much I ask you�that was totally not the point. My point was that I do try to make the effort to be helpful as much as possible concerning the kids, whether it�s watching them for you, taking them to karate, picking them up from your house to take them to practice, whatever is needed. I do this because it�s for the kids and because I enjoy having them around, but regardless, it�s still nice to hear a �thank you� sometimes because it does have the side benefit of helping you too when I bring things by so you don�t have to drive over or when I take them to things. It is just something nice to hear when you are helping someone out (which I do feel like I try to do). It�s not to thank me for having the kids with me, I don�t need thanks for that. It�s just saying thank you for helping you out as well (so you don�t need to drive, you can handle something you need to do without the kids, etc), that�s all. I hear a lot of the negative comments from you at these times when it doesn�t work out exactly as expected, but never anything positive. I was trying to tell you last night that I don�t want it to keep being that way and there really isn�t a need for it to be that way with these times in the first place."

So that captures the basic ramble. I didn't say much after she got done rambling. I explained the situation with DD9 using the phone without my knowledge and that I wasn't mad about anything or upset at her for not responding sooner. I then asked about DS7's meds.

I then got the above email at work.

I debated whether or not to answer. Seems pointless to try and educate a WXW and it also seems weird that she is seeking any approval from me. I could care less what she thinks of me or if she thinks I am good/bad/rude. I really don't care.

So after much debate and discussion with my DW, I sent the following:

Please understand there is no emotion in this response. The horse is dead and you can continue to beat it if you wish, I really don�t care.

Regarding karate on Fridays: I do that because it is best for the kids and it is in the spirit of our order, which states that you are to bring the kids to me by 7PM on Fridays if I request it. It�s become a pattern to meet at karate and it seems to be the easiest transition for the kids to make at a mutually agreed to location. I�ve never seen Friday arrangements as �helping me out.�

If I could, I�d pick them up from daycare and not see you at all, but that isn�t an option anymore since you changed things without informing me.

All calculations I make are based entirely on what is best for the kids and you�re not a part of the calculation. Having DD9 stay with you on Friday let her sleep a little more than at my house and permitted me to take the boys to swimming. Once that all added up in my head, the decision was made and I simply asked if you�d be willing to do it. If not, then I would have taken her the next morning as necessary.

Requesting that you watch them on the night before my race was done for them, not for me. I wanted them to attend their swimming class and not have to miss it for an event for me.

I figured you�d appreciate the extra time and the kids would get to sleep and go to their class. I could have just as easily had the neighbors watch them, but they�d miss their class in that scenario. I never viewed it as a favor.

Tardiness on your end or absence of consideration is expected whenever I interact with you. If you give me a time when you say you�ll be at something, I add about 20 minutes to it and am no longer upset or surprised when it happens. It�s simply a given. I�ll read a book or surf the web while I wait.

I use to get upset about it, now I just tell people to expect it. The Monday you picked the kids up from my place is a good example. I told Sister that you said that you�d be by between 7:30-7:45. As a responsible person, I instructed her to have them ready for that time, but to expect you to arrive after 8 since that seems to be the norm.

Happened as predicted. If Sister hadn�t been there I�d have been incredibly late for work, which I�m sure never crossed your mind.

I predicted to my sister and to DW that you would run out of the Christmas play as quickly as you could and the concept that I might want to say something to DD9 wouldn�t cross your mind. Happened as predicted. I expected it and it still hurt to not be able to see DD9, but it happened as I said it would. There was no surprise.

Your response, as with every single instance, is to make excuses, say that I should be understanding, and explain that none of it was done on purpose.

I�ve come to understand over the years that you truly are oblivious to your complete lack of ability to feel any sort of empathy or consideration for others. It�s simply who you are. The little girl that got every single wish granted and had everyone around her cater to her needs never grew out of that.

It is your world and we all simply live in it. It�s how you see the world and how you treat everyone around you.

I guess I�m incapable of saying �thank you� anymore than you�re capable of saying �I�m sorry.�



She sent another rant after this message, but I think I'm just going to stay quiet. I'm a little baffled that she is seeking thanks from me or any kind of approval. It really confuses her that I'm all business with her and am not remotely warm when around her at kid events.

Is this just the norm?

Just for the record, Plan B isn't in the picture. I have no desire to protect any feelings, they're long dead. I interact by the court ordered minimum and outside of the doctor and kid events, I really don't communicate with her in any way. 90% of communications are logistics related. "I'll be at x spot at such and such time."

The other 10% are medically related: "How has DS7 done on the meds at school this week? Do we need to see pediatrician about them again? Have you noticed x kind of behavior?"

That's about it. All business. Why she wants to go beyond that is weird to me.

On a very positive note:

My DW is expecting. The baby is her first, my fourth. We're very happy about it.

Told the kids this weekend and they were excited. It sucks that they will all be part time siblings with their new sibling, but we'll make the best of it.

Any suggestions from those out there in similar situations? (kids from previous marriage/bio kids from new marriage)

Congrats on the baby and at least they will be brother's and sisters with their new sibling.

Have you ever thought about parallel parenting? I do it with my xwh and it's wonderful. No drama, no drawn out emails.

Just a thought. Parallel Parenting

That's what we've been doing, for the most part. It's only on occasion that I get these emails from her and I tend to ignore them and simply respond to what matters with the kids.

Yep, just read the thread. It's what we've basically been doing for years, but she occasionally tries to engage outside of those parameters.

I simply find it confusing that she somehow expects me to be all warm and fuzzy and has stated repeatedly that she thinks things would be further along and that we'd be friendly.

I don't know if it's worth educating her or not. I have no desire to be a friend with her. I forgave long ago, but I haven't forgotten. She's like a co-worker you don't like but that you work with to get the job done. You interact when necessary, but other than that you don't.

I think she imagined a "friendly divorce" where her and her bf would hang out and be all buds with my DW and I. It's been 6 years. She's the one who left. Why she cares what I think is puzzling. Is this normal WXW behavior?

Of course it's normal. After all, they only ripped your heart out and stomped on it. Why on earth don't you want to be friends? You're remarried! The slate is clean!

Why can't you say what a great person they are?

/sarcasm

Has she remarried? I forget.

Has she remarried?

I do find some WW have a tougher time moving on. Women in general play games.

Congratulations on your good news! A baby is wonderful news.

You'll find a way to blend. Just keep reassuring the kids who are here already. Get them involved in the baby's care and welfare.

Could this turn of events be playing a role in your ex wife's behavior? It could be bringing up a lot of primal stuff for her.

You've really moved on.

She doesn't know about the pregnancy. I told the kids. If they tell her, great. If not, just as good. I really don't care.

She didn't know about the pregnancy when she started the latest rant. I still don't know if she knows or not.

Her response to what I said:

I don't know why I bother trying to talk through things with you. It never seems to go anywhere and you always resort back to the same thing...I'm horrible, you're the victim, my intentions are selfish, yours are honorable, I would never do anything nice and must have some agenda, everything u do though is for the kids. It's ridiculous things are still like this at that you jump back to the same old song and dance. It's funny that everyone else involved with the kids that doesn't interact with you, feels very differently about who I am and what the kids mean in my life...and even my intentions toward you and my desire to get along and be helpful. You can continue to view me however you wish, but it doesn't make it so. Here I thought we were doing better and that I was trying to get along and be helpful, but apparently even if I walked on water, you will always go right back to this kind of response.



What I'm thinking about sending her:


I really don�t know if its denial, guilt, suppressed guilt, or an unrealistic view of what comes with divorce, but your expectations are incredibly unrealistic given all that happened and what you did. We are business partners that must interact for the benefit of our kids. That�s it.

The fact that you�re still baffled that I�m not all warm and fuzzy after all that has happened shows me that you never have been able to comprehend the consequences of your actions. In many ways I feel sorry for your inability to take personal responsibility and accountability without rationalizing the inexcusable and the impact it had on everyone, especially the kids.

I�m very happy with my life and how things are. I don�t have a need to feel approval or gratitude from you in any way or to feel like �we�re getting along.�

I never sit around wondering, �Why can�t she see how great a dad I am? Why doesn�t she ever say thanks for the things that I do? Is there some way we could get along better?�

I truly and honestly have no feeling one way or another if you like or don�t like something I do. I�m a little puzzled why you would care what I think or why I don�t say �thank you� for basic logistical things required by all parents or ordered by the court.

The only thing in this entire exercise which I find fascinating is your complete inability to process consequences. The absence of conscience is truly a thing to behold. I tend to apologize for being 5 minutes late to something or for forgetting to bring something I should have remembered. This seems like something you�re completely incapable of doing for massive and major things.

I�m fascinated on an academic level. Do you ever go through any introspection? Is it possible that you really believe people should look past hurtful behavior and focus on the little bit of good? Do you believe that I should be grateful for you doing things that are pretty much normal and required obligations for parents such as bringing kids supplies, getting them to places on time, showing up to events, taking them to the doctor?

On a more important note, why didn�t you come to DD9's performance given to hundreds of people at a national festival? I cancelled all weekend plans to go and watch her. I�m just curious about why you didn�t come when it was a pretty big deal that you knew about weeks ahead of time.

First to the pleasant tidings:

Congratulations on the pregnancy! You and DW should treasure this opportunity to enrich a new life!

As for WXW:

I'm horrible, you're the victim, my intentions are selfish, yours are honorable, I would never do anything nice and must have some agenda, everything u do though is for the kids.

Make a good-faith offer to cover the expense of having her tattooed with this honest assessment! Who knows - it might be a subconscious slip of reality getting through to her!!

Has your WXW remarried?

Why answer her at all? Do you think you can educate her at all? Is that why you're trying to respond?

If she is a drama queen, then the long back and forth emails is what she wants. If you don't feed her need for drama and truly shut that door you won't feed the monster and you won't have to live the drama.

With true parallel parenting it's all business. My emails with my XWH are about 1 sentence.

I would give the Bruce Willis's line in Die Hard 2, "just the fax mam, just the fax"

BH,

You are correct. At this point I just find this interesting on an academic level. It is truly amazing that she has no conscience. Can people still remain so narcissistic years after the fact?

It is true that I can't educate her.

I'm going to back away now. My emails tend to be as you describe, this recent spat comes from her tendency to corner me on occasion when she can make that happen.

So I've done things to minimize her presence. But she occasionally asks a few things which put me on the spot.

This latest thing has been a real curiosity for me because I feel completely opposite from what she expresses. I truly don't care if she thanks me or doesn't thank me or says something nice or mean. I really don't care either way.

My DW also doesn't mind if I stand up for myself now and then. I usually opt to not answer, but DW occasionally says I should when she crosses a line.

But again, I don't care what she thinks.

I agree with your DW with telling your WXW when she crosses the line.

Yes she can still remain narcisstic, especially if she doesn't get help.

Has your WXW remarried? I feel for her new H if she is still doing this with you. Imagine what he goes through, poor sucker

It may also be in her twisted mind that "she's trying to get along with her XH " to rationalise it in her own Wayward mind.

Go back to your lovely life. Best revenge is to live a happy, good life.

No, she's not remarried. She has a live in boyfriend she's been with for almost 6 years.

Help ... the mere fact she is still with her OM should speak volumes to you ... she is still an addict. Until she ceases all ties to her OM for life she will remain in that foggy addict stage. She is still a drunk ... her addiction has her so entrenched.

Can you name one long term drunk that has done anything moral, ethical, or is remotely happy?

My suggestion is to treat her like the drunk she is ... very limited contact and absolutely no banter back and forth. I would even cease talking to her in public. You state you don't want to do Plan B ... I believe it is needed for you.

This low life drunk pulled you back into her dark, depraved world again. It seems every couple of months you, her OM, and the drunk seem to get in some kind of drama. Your posting reflects this.

Let the drunk go back to the cesspool of a life she created and when and only when she ends all contact with her still drug of choice will you remotely be able to have a rational conversation.

Protect your children from this as much as possible. Show them you do not have a conversation with someone who intentionally, cruelly, and deliberately annihilated their world.

I understand you have moved on with your new wife ... this is still a lingering mess that was created some six+ years ago. You cannot ever move on from it because she hasn't lifted one finger to clean it up. This mess she made will never go away ... it can only be contained by your Plan B action.

I can put myself in your shoes because my addicted WH used his deployment to commit adultery, abandon us, cut us off financially, go on to destroy us financially, and now in his fogged out addicted mind completely and fully abandoned us.

Yes we "can move on", and his divorce will have him as good as dead to me, but the reality is it will always be there. I have to carry around his nuclear bomb aftermath for the rest of my life, until he is ready to clean it himself. It is something I cannot ever do for him. Granted with time it will lesson, but the reality is it will always be some sort of anchor around my neck.

The best I can do to lighten the load is Plan B him for life. He will never ever have the luxury of a friendship or even a stranger friendship ... if he ever decides to clean up his mess and take the anchor he has placed on my kids and I ... then and only then will I engage him.

I say cut your own anchor load. You have a new baby coming ... start making room around your next for the next set of responsibilities that are to come ... your drunk skank xWW is way to heavy and way to burdensome ... let your new baby come in peace.

My 2cents ... Tough~

This her OM, correct? No wonder she is still like this and did this. She's still very much a wayward and an addict.

We all know what happens when an addict doesn't get help. They remain an addict.

So happy for you and your DW and combining your two families. Good job on deciding to ignore her emails.

He's not an OM. He's a guy she met a few months after our D and I have confirmation he was not an OM before our D. She had the hots for different guys while I was deployed.

Pray, I hear what you're saying, but I can also tell you that you do eventually get to a point where the other person becomes a caricature and you even feel sorry for how lost they are. But you won't feel pain anymore.

I know I don't.

This latest exchange was really more out of curiosity on my end. I find it truly fascinating that a person can have no conscience at all and blame any and all mistakes on her part on others. The fact that she expects people to simply understand when she's late, doesn't go to work, stays in bed all the time while "sick" is a testament to the fact that she never grew out of how she was treated when she had cancer as a teen. I know several people who dealt with cancer, survived it, and have moved on with normal lives.

She still seeks attention with "illness."

I can honestly tell you I feel sorry for her bf. I saw him a few years ago doing certain things during one of her "illnesses" and I said to myself, "Thank God I'm not doing that anymore."

I know you are recommending Plan B, but that's just not a reality after a divorce when there are kids in the picture. I have to see her when we go to doc appointments for the kids. I have to see her when I pick the kids up.

But I do take precautions to minimize the contact I maintain. I don't normally answer my phone when she calls and figure that she can leave a message if it is an emergency. I show up as late as possible to the kids' karate class in order to have minimal exposure for an argument. I don't let her into my house and I don't try to go into hers.

I truly and honestly feel nothing when around her other that some minor apprehension that she may try to talk to me about something. I simply leave if she tries to engage.

Right now I'm focused on my DW and my coming baby. I've got a million things going through my head with getting cribs, changing tables, diapers holders, bottles, etc. I have some things from the twins. But I have to re-stock!

That's right enjoy your new baby with your DW and kids.

Helpthelostdads,

Could you jump in on totally2confused's thread and give him some advice on his direction to protect himself? Here totally2confused's thread

Did you have your thread about what you went through with your WXW down? I have tried to find it to use as a reference?

Thanks.