Keep in mind that she fell in love with you before. All you have to do are the things you did then. But PLEASE don't do shortcuts on your UA time or you are going to be sorely disappointed.

The habits in your marriage should be transformed if you want to transform your marriage, and that means making QUALITY UA time your main priority. Sitting at home after your child is asleep is ok, but should be not be the mainstay of your UA time during the week. You should be going out every other night on DATES. AWAY from home. When you have the most energy.

What kind of a job is she doing to meet your needs, Cliff? She must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now she has failed. How would rate her effort?

Cliffy:

Don't get caught up in what, exactly, he did for your wife. He was a shiny new object that made here eyes light up, but upon closer examination turned out to be a fake.

You're the diamond in her life, and worth every penny. You just needed to be buffed a bit (meeting needs) to let your true value to your wife shine through.

I love Melody's question about her meeting your needs. How's that going?

FYI: You two are probably "hysterical bonding," meaning you're giving each other EVERYTHING because of the trauma you've been through. This won't last forever, and that's when you really need to pay attention and follow the plan.

My FWH and I hit that post hysterical bonding spot -- I think about six to eight months into our recovery. We just didn't feel so super connected, we realized we'd let our UA time slip a bit. It's easy to do, when you don't feel the affair gun at your head.

We both realized that we were letting real life wedge its way between us, and we got back on track with time together. When we don't talk, cuddle, recreate together, we feel it.

I love this part of MB. The "plan" really does work. But like everything it takes a bit of effort. But unlike a chore, it's REWARDING in so many ways.

Keep up the good work, Cliffy!

Thanks sweat pea.

Today, we went to our 2nd and probably last counselling session. Unfortunately the counsellor brings out some 'home truths' but has no positive resolutions. So, after the two times we've been, we've both felt less close to each other as a result (ie. Lots of love withdrawals), thus the reason we won't go anymore. It was my WW's idea initially. We realize now, it is doing us more harm than good.

Having said this, the counsellor did raise a number of important points that has re-inforced PLAN A per marriage builders. Today the counsellor raised:

As you have changed your phone and email. If the OM still seeks you out, then this is considered stalking or harassment and we should go straight to the police. I'm really in favor with this, but had not pushed this thought previously. Why you ask? Because my WW did not think this way. In her own words, she believed if the police had to be involved at anytime, it may cause un-necessary further harm to her family (my in-laws). The good news is the counsellor really pushed her and told her she must firstly tell me, and then secondly notify the police. She did not like this answer, but has now reluctantly agreed.

My concerns are, I wanted to push this point with her before, but was concerned that if I did, she may not be honest and tell me if he contacts her (out of fear that I would take it to the police). My concern is now, she has reluctantly agreed to do it - ie. She is not enthusiastic about this at all. This concerns me as this tells me she still has feelings for him and may kind of still wants him to contact her. Am I reading this correctly? Help please.....

Ironically, if she spoke to her family, they would encourage her to go to the police. They have told me this.

I don't know why, but my heart is very heavy at the moment. I feeling like leaving.............

I have not been able to sleep at all tonight.........I am really struggling.

I am not sure if it is worth fighting for.

Something she said to me last night made me realize tha she has never REALLY put herself in my shoes. I am referring to before the A started, and now during recovery she still isn't realising the amount of pain that I'm going through.

I feel like throwing the towel................

Throwing in the towel

Im not going into my marriage counselor rant as its out there somewhere, but do not make any decisions based on a MC counselor visit.

No one will blame your for bailing on the marriage.

I think you need more time, however.

Good luck in whatever you do.

Cliffy:

Your wife needs to hear what kind of pain you're in. But tell her you're working on moving past it, too.

She should be trying to comfort you in any way she can. AND she should be meeting your top emotional needs, so that you're building new memories and excising the bad.

We were lucky with marriage counseling. She was a very straight shooter, and had no problem with Marriage Builders techniques. I found her invaluable at navigating some very tough discussions, and she really held my FWH's feet to the fire.

For instance, we had a very tough time talking about a post-nuptial agreement that I wanted us to sign, that basically said I get way more than 50/50 should he cheat again. He hesitated and hesitated and hesitated. Ultimately, deep down, he was afraid he wouldn't be able to keep his bad behaviors in check.

She told him point blank that he was totally in command of his actions and that if he strays again, he's doing it because he has CHOSEN to do so. So ... his hesitation was him wanting to keep his options open. That's when his language about fidelity into th future changed. He realized he was giving himself permission to cheat again, so he stopped saying "might" and started saying "won't" happen again.

That's just one of several big points we went through, including individual counseling, which I've repeatedly said helped me find ME again (with or without FWH). I really needed that guidance.

{{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}}

Thanks everyone.

Even now, I'm sure my WW doesn't understand. She knew I was up all night (if she didn't, she should have!), and instead of really trying to find out what was going through my head this morning, she just went to work.

I am concerned that I am giving up. I don't know why I am feeling this way. Those last few weeks meeting emotional needs have been great. But after the counseling session yesterday, everything has changed. It's not just the counseling, but I think her reaction to topics raised ( per my previous few posts) has really opened my eyes to who she really is.

You would think after being together for 15 years you would know your partner inside out. I guess not.

I'm after some thoughts on 2 topics if anyone can help per my previous few posts on this page:

1) thoughts around her reaction to contacting the police - ie. Does this indicate she still cares for him?
2) why has she not REALLY put herself in my shoes to really understand the pain I'm going through?

Cliffy:

I have no idea why your wife would be hesitant to call the police if OM contacts her again and you decide it is harassment. It could be that she's still deeply wayward and wants him to contact her. It could be that she's so horribly ashamed of her actions that if it were to become part of the public record, she'd be embarrassed.

She should be able to articulate to you WHY she's hesitating. If this -- turning OM into police for further contact -- is the way YOU want to do it, then she needs to get her foggy wayward mind around it.

She nearly ruined your lives; this guy is as significant a threat to your marriage as anything (burglar, robber, rapist). You have told him to stay away, and if he does not, then he should suffer the consequences (legal action).

And think about this: Exposure would probably end all this controversy over the OM. If your closest friends and family members know about the affair and know you have asked POSOM not to contact your wife, you can ask them to kindly put pressure on him to butt out ... or suffer the consequences of his continued actions with law enforcement.

About not feeling your pain. I'm not sure any wayward feels our pain as deeply and as long. Dr. Harvey says it's worse than the emotional trauma of being raped. I've never been raped, but I can tell you that at times I felt like putting one foot in front of another was too much effort.

But, again, that is the beauty of Marriage Builders and, frankly, counseling. Yes, this is devastating, but if you are to recover, you're going to have to move forward. And that means, with time, forcing yourself to think less and less about the affair and your pain.

It will take a long time.

The incident of you staying up all night. Don't let these kinds of incidents linger. If you were up all night worrying, yes, it would be great if your wife said: Honey, I noticed you tossed and turned. I'm sorry. I'm sorry for everything I did.

But if she isn't, it's not fair for you to sit back and pout. Being OPEN AND HONEST means you have to O&H about your feelings, even if that means you need to reach out and tell her you need more TLC. OR for her to apologize again. Or for her to just simply hold your hand.

But Mike is right. If you really think there's no hope, you've been given the biggest get out of jail free card with her affair.

Cliffy: It will get better, if you work the program. It's not some magic forumal. It's simple behavioral modifications to make sure the cheater doesn't have the opportunity to cheat, and to help you two find your way back to each other.

I know, it sounds simple when I type it, but I, too, and many of us here have struggled. But I'm happy -- overjoyed -- that I stuck it out and am on the other side of the pain.

Hope this helps,
Sweetpea

Cliffy:

Thinking about this more. POSOM is the ENEMY, and your wife needs to see that. He should be DESTROYED in this battle for your wife.

I think she doesn't want to see POSOM hurt or embarrassed by legal/police action. So, to me, she's still foggy.

This is where you need to step up as the warrior for your marriage. This is NOT an issue that she gets input in, because she obviously isn't willing to ENSURE NO CONTACT -- FOR LIFE!!!

If she thinks it's even REMOTELY OK for him to reach out to her, she's in denial.

I'm hoping someone else will pipe in to bolster this thought. Struck me like a ton of bricks while reading someone else's thread.

Cliff, you are correct, she won't be honest. This is why the solution is for her to make it impossible for him to contact her at all. That avenue needs to shut down. How would he contact her? Asking a WS to "be honest" about contact misses the point completely. Being honest about contact does not negate the fact that she is triggered. The solution is to make sure he doesn't ever get through.

And has she sent him a no contact letter as outlined in the book SAA?

The fact that she does not want to call the police is very normal. Yes she does have feelings for him. WE ALREADY KNEW THIS. This is why she had an affair with the man. It is unrealistic to believe otherwise. She is still in the fog, so that is to be expected.

I have a feeling there might still be contact, though. How are you checking?

Also, what you have discovered about counseling is EXACTLY WHY Dr Harley does not counsel couples together. They leave more angry than when they went in. What is the point of paying someone to sit in their office and lovebust each other? You can stay home and do it for free! This is why I continually say that marriage counseling is destructive to marriages. Is it any wonder that marriage counselers have a higher divorce rate than the general population?

Real simple: she is still in the fog! And that explains why you don't recognize her. A person in the fog is the equivalent of a falling down drunk.

Thanks melody and sweat pea.

Even before reading your comments I did exactly what you wrote. I confronted her with both points and told her, even though we're meeting each others emotionals needs, she can't lose sight of how devastated I still am because of what she's done. She thought as I didn't talk about it anymore, I must have stopped feeling pain!!!

I also asked why she didn't want to go to the police. She told me it was more out of embarrassment that she had to do it, ie revealing this shameful thing to others. She said she now understands why it must be done and enthusiastically agreed.

Melody - letter has been done, and phone and email address has been changed. The issue is, the OM knows where she works, and can still contact her if he wanted to. At least the DIRECT lines of communication have been removed. So if he contacts from now on, it's harassment!

Question: previous to this my WW has not/ would not talk about the OM (and even to the counsellor), saying that he is completely out of her mind. Can this occur, or does she still hold feelings as you have suggested melody but simply hiding it. Hold the reply until you read the below.

My wife works for a Bank. Yesterday, while she was interviewing a customer, when she noticed that the OM's brother (he lives in our city) was in line at the branch to be served. She has never seem him in the branch before, and after some thought she thinks that the OM asked his brother to check if my wife still worked there (as the phone and email had been changed).

I have 2 thoughts about this and need your help:

1) if my wife is telling me the truth, then this is progress. We then need to prepare for the fact that he is planning to contact her again.

2) what if my wife isn't telling me the truth? What if it was actually OM that came into the branch and they had a chat. Ie. She didn't push him away? Am I reading too much into this? Based on your comments Melody that she may still be in the fog and my above comments that she says she is completely over him, I am very concerned.

I am tracking her phone calls and SMS's. I have a gps on her and tracking her movements. I can't see emails as she is on an enterprise email system, all of the spyware programs can't be installed. Unless anyone knows an alternative?

Cliffy:

I'm glad your wife agreed to call the police. That does seem like progress.

The bit about the brother coming to the bank? That seems like wishful thinking on your WS's part, meaning she's still hoping he'll use ANY means to contact her. Sorry, but that's what it feels like.

I would ask her: well, did brother speak to you? Look at you?

I would advise her that the next time she sees anyone connected to the POSOM and she can't get out, to be direct and clear. To say: Hey, please don't ever speak to me about POSOM. Our affair was the biggest mistake of my life.

RE work. Is there anyone at work you could rely upon to observe your wife's phone calls, etc?

Hope that helps.

Hi sweat pea.

The OM's brother didn't speak to my wife, but my wife thinks he did see her. So if he was 'spying', he would verified that my wife still worked there.

Unfortunately, there is no one at her work that can keep an eye on her calls. She works between 2 branches, which makes it even harder.

I do believe her when she says, that she only wants to spend her life with me now. I want to believe that she doesn't want to talk to the OM again, but I'm not sure if I can.

Cliffy:

Sounds to me like your wife ought to get a new job or you could step up and call OM's brother to tell him to stay away from your wife.

See? This is the problem with not exposing properly, Cliffy. What if OM is telling everyone he knows that you're some sort of controlling freak, keeping her prisoner.

Seems to me like you two would be better off making contact with the significant people in OM's life, especially his wife or girlfriend, his closest friends, his brother and/or other siblings AND his parents to tell them the truth.

Otherwise, you'll be waiting and waiting and waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Read some other threads about exposure. I believe HoldHerHand and MikeStillSmilling did it, and were grateful.

You need to put everyone on notice that you're committed to each other and need their help to make it work (i.e.: make sure your wife is holding up her end of the bargain), or they need to stay away.

Think about it, Cliffy. Your lack of exposure is leaving your wife very vulnerable. You want that risk out there for the rest of your life? Yup, she is ashamed, but she did it. Everything and now she's probably begging you not to tell anyone. Why? Because it allows her to pretend that she never did it, and keep another big secret from the rest of the world.

But guess what? Keeping that part of herself secret likely will trip her up in the future. Not only all the "what ifs" about the OM, but don't you think her friends and family will HELP her stay on the straight and narrow in the future? SHe will need that help.

Think about it.

I agree sweat pea. My wife's family are fully aware of what is happening. They have told her that they will dis-own her if she ever talks to the OM again. She is very close to her family, so has a strong motivation to not contact the OM again.

I do agree with your thoughts about exposing the OM. I don't want to live the rest of my life 'looking over my shoulder'.

...and HelpforDad, too, and I'm glad I did.

Got OM fired from jobsite, exposed to OMs mom, sisters, brother (OM was 45 years old, single still, never married, no kids), exposed to the union, his employer who called to apologize -- work, home...now, everyone knew what the slimball was up too. And, now OM got the message that this was only the first salvo of what I'd do to protect my family.

OMs mom called me, ripped into my W, said she'd 'talk to her boy'...I imagine that put a nail in the coffin of the affair.

And, as I've written on previous posts, not only am I grateful, but my W -- to this day -- still THANKS ME for exposing becasue, as she has stated, even though she knew it was over, she couldn't end the 'addiction' of the affair on her own and needed a hero -- her HUSBAND -- to fight for her and our children.

Expose.

Helpfordad: Thanks for giving another BS's opinion on exposure. We didn't expose in a nuclear fashion because my FWH was one of the few who stopped immediately (I've checked!). He knew he had one shot, and he wanted that one shot to have me back.

But if I had to have gone nuclear, of my god. I would have!!! But in the calmest, most serene way. I would have leveled FWH and his POSOW.

In the end, we told several good friends and selected family members. They are a godsend in helping us recover. Truly.

I do feel like Cliffy's wife, while remorseful, seems to be holding out some slim hope that her AP will contact her; otherwise, why the concern over POSOM's brother visiting her bank?

Cliffy: I'm glad you see it this way. I would also like to say that full exposure should be cathartic, ultimately, for you wife. Why? Because, there will be no more places to hide.

And, I love the fact that the people to whom you expose will help SUPPORT your wayward wife, AND keep her in line.

Get it done, Cliffy. Put the dagger into the heart of this affair for good.

Then, really concentrate on UA time, emotional needs and maintaining your boundaries. UA time is awesome, and you and your wife need it to heal and move forward.

Cheers,
Sweetpea

Sweat pea.

Did you FWH have an affair for a few months. Did he love the other person? My WW did. That's why I believe that she wants to spend her life with me, but I am certain she still has feelings for the OM, even though she outrightly says she doesn't.