Hi,
I'm a new member and I have to say I'm impressed with the level of concern and support many of you are showing for those with questions. I am 56 and my wife is 57. We have been married 34 years

To start with, I am terribly unhappy and frustrated because my wife has not made love with me in two years. We are about as far apart as we could be in terms of need for SF.

W sleeps in another room although I have expressed repeatedly that I miss her at night and feel sad and lonely. What I have been asking for is simple affection. I am so hurt by repeated brush-offs that I seldom attempt to initiate sex unless there is some sign that she is receptive, and that hasn't happened lately.

My individual counselor (for stress management) suggested that I explore this website. I have read the basic concepts and many of the articles and letters. Over the past 6 years,I have pleaded with W to see a doctor regarding depression, but she always gets angry if I attempt to discuss that.

Over the past month I have made many attempts to discuss how frustrated I am with W. On every occasion she has acknowledged the issue and recognized that "we need to re-establish our intimate relationship". She says that she is afraid. However, I cannot get her to express her views beyond that.

Two weeks ago she walked away from me while I was trying to talk with her about these issues while we were out walking our dogs. I thought is was just another kind of brush off.

But the next morning she came to my bed and initiated love making. Almost immediately we had to stop because she was experiencing vaginal pain. We agreed that she needs to get a medical appointment to check for the possibility of a physiological cause.

Well, she hasn't made an appointment yet. The message I'm getting is that our lack of intimacy and my unhappiness is not that important a problem to her point of view.

Meanwhile, I have been focusing on trying to be more aware of how I may be leaving her emotional needs unmet. I have stepped up my efforts to express affection throughout the day, offering companionship, and committing random acts of thoughtfulness.

I shared the recreational interests concessionaire because I hoped that would be safe and pleasant for her to talk about and we identified a nice variety of activities we would both like. This week we are both taking two vacation days and going on a mini-vacation to enjoy a stage show and a couple of museums.

I asked W to take a look at this web site so that we could discuss the ideas and suggestions.

This brings me to my question about the solitaire. W plays solitaire on her laptop computer for hours at a time. I'd gues it was more than six hours each on Saturday and Sunday. W knows this bothers me, but gets angry if I mention it. She says it is what she does to relax.

I feel playing solitaire that much is interfering with our lifes together. When I try to talk with her, she typically continues to play on the computer. I do not feel that we are having UA time together when she has the computer in her lap. I also resent that she hasn't (for example) read any of the material that I had hoped we could use as a starting point for discussion.

One dilemma for me. I feel that I am engaging in love busting behavior if I attempt to impose upon her to stop playing solitaire. I am an engineer and I could easily "disappear" games from her computer, but I have never done that because it would be heavy handed and abusive. Nor do I want to get pulled into nagging her about the issue. So I feel trapped. I don't feel that I can ethically insist that she stop.

I have tried offering to play cribbage with W when I see her start to play solitaire. We generally have a nice time doing that. But when we finish playing cards together, she goes right back to solitaire on the computer.

W seems terribly withdrawn and unhappy. I almost feel as though I should defer trying to address my own needs for now and try to help her improve upon what I believe is depression. However W is very resistant to facing this issue.

Although she denies that she has deprssion, W routinely makes statements about herself that declare that she is struggling. "I hate my job" (I've encouraged her to thin about alternatives). "I'm not as nice as I used to be." "I'm drowning and I can't see the surface".

I don't know how to cope with this, and I realizing I don't know how to care for myself in this situation either. My long standing habits of thought are to focus on W's needs, but it is clear to me that I am being harmed in the process.

As I write this, I am thinking that what I am presenting is more of a mental health crisis than a marriage crisis, so I'm wondering if this is appropriate for your forum.

Thanks for any help, or comfort, you can offer.

As I re-read my own post, I am appalled at the number of typos. I am visually impaired and it is difficult for me to see what I am typing. Please understand I was focused on the content.

Welcome to the forum **EDIT**. I thought your post was very readable so please don't worry about that.

It may be a mental health crisis, I don't know, but it is clearly also a marriage crisis and you need support.

Have you told your wife how her procrastinating about making an appointment to see the doctor is making you feel? 2 years is a really long time to go without sex in a marriage. Why did she start sleeping in another room?

Have you read any of the marriage builders books? You say you have started to think about her emotional needs, have you identified any you have left unmet specifically? Have you thought about Love Busters? Are there any of those that you have habitually done in the past that may have turned her away from you? She is clearly neglecting your needs right now but getting her to engage in the program if possible will probably have to be by way of showing her how she can benefit from it.

We have a long drive for our mini vacation and I thought about getting the his/needs book to read to each other in the car but it seems wiser to let the recreational trip be strictly fun. So I'll get the book but not bring it on that trip.

I am a pretty caring and sensitive person most of the time. I can think of a few habits W doesn't like, but I don't see myself as abusive or neglectful. I've been trying to meet her needs for a long time. I need W to share with me what she needs from me or I'm guessing.

I gave W a copy of the EN inventory but told her she needed to look at the background reading before trying to fill it out. Hence my frustration seeing her play solitaire for hours. I did fill out my own questionnaire hoping to set an example. I suppose that might have felt like a form of silent nagging to W.

But if I don't persist in trying to open communication,, I don't see how it will happen. I've gone too long avoiding saying anything that will upset W (or anyone else) and harmed myself too much by accepting having my needs unmet.

W has sleep apnia and doesn't return to sleep if anything wakes her. That is her main stated reason for sleeping in another room. I'd be ok with that if she would join me for some intimate time and then one of us could move when she is ready for sleep. When she puts on her CPAP mask it is like putting up a wall. Especially after many years of brush offs being her standard response to me.
On some level she gets it. On one occasion I described my predicament as far as SF by saying "I lose.". (Im not proud of having made that remark). W answered, " If you lose, I lose too". But then she continues to leave me unhappy. I think her aversions (which are a problem for her). are a stronger force to her than my unmet needs. ESP since I rarely complain.

Again. I need W's active help to learn how I can meet her needs better.

When someone is truly depressed they lose hope. She may need for you to make the Dr's appt and for you to go with her. In fact, I think you should go with her so that all of your concerns are addressed as well. One symptom of depression is hopelessness. You truly believe you're stuck and there's no way out. It often takes someone else taking the initiative to get things moving.

Obviously you can't force her to go. But if you gently explain that you love her and you can't stand there and let her suffer. Explain the dynamics of depression and that you see that she needs suport in order to get the help she needs.

WonderingIf,
You make a good point. I do need to make the case to W to get medical help as firmly yet compassionately as I can. I'll just have to accept the risk that she lashes out as a price I'll pay to do the right thing for my love. I can survive that if I know that I have done my best to do it in a loving way

I have alerted W's primary care doctor to my concerns. So if I can get her that far, she may get help.

Also on my mind is the thought that if I ask her to join me in counseling a good therapist may help her to see the value ofgetting help. The fact that my own psychologist suggested this site would bode well for a referral she might provide.

I see a need for W to hear from somebody she percieves as objective.

***edit*** welcome to Marriage Builders.

Reading through this, it is clear to me that she has fallen out love. Her emotional detachment is the problem and you are sensing that she has left the marriage. Which she has. The reason she won't make love to you is because women need 2 things to desire sex, an emotional attachment and the prospect of enjoyment. If one of those elements is missing, she won't have any desire to make love.

The solution is to fall in love again. I am sure she is just as frustrated and miserable as you because she WANTS to feel like engaging but just can't. She finds it impossible to fake it for long. Here is what Harley says about fixing the marriage:


What this program will do is restore her feelings for you if she will use it. It is going to take much more than just fiddling around the edges to turn this around. It will take a dramatic change in the way you both treat your relationship. Your behaviors will not sustain a marriage, but if you both change your behaviors, your wife will regain her feelings for you.

The way to do this is to start spending 20-25 hours per week together of undivided attention time, sleeping together every night [going to bed at the same time] and stopping the online solitaire.

1. Undivided Attention. [this will give you the biggest bang for your buck] Unless you and your wife spend 15 hours per week together meeting these top 4 emotional needs, affection, conversation, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment, it will be impossible to stay in love. It takes 15 hours to maintain, and 20-25 hours to create romantic love.
Policy of Undivided Attention

This time should be scheduled every week, writing out times, places, dates, etc.


2. Sleeping together every night. Ask her to commit to sleeping with you every night. Sleeping apart only adds to the detachment. She can get in the habit of doing this.

3. Giving up her online solitaire completely. Since this is a hobby that she enjoys more than her marriage now, she needs to give it up because of the contrast effect.

Those are the most glaring issues I see in your marriage. Scheduling 20+ hours of UA time per week will make the most dramatic effect on your marriage. Your wife will start feeling a difference in a few weeks. And in the meantime, I would get the book His Needs, Her Needs, Lovebusters and the accompanying workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love and start going through the lessons.

You can do this program on your own if you are very disciplined and motivated. If not, the Harley's offer excellent programs and counseling services that are bar none, the best there is. My H and I went through the seminar [now the online program where they assign you a coach and guide you through weekly lessons] back in 2007 with several other couples here and it made a huge difference in our marriage. Many others have done this.

And if your wife is not motivated to go do any of this, you might want to consider phone coaching with either of Dr Harley's children, Steve Harley or Dr Jennifer Chalmers.

I very much agree with this statement. Dr Harley addressed that issue with a man in your very situation over on the weekend forum:



And this article addresses your exact situation: When to Call It Quits(Part 3)By Willard F. Harley, Jr., Ph.D.

*edit* Dr. Harley had a call on his radio show last week that sounded really similar to this. Maybe some of the suggestions he gave can help you.

Part 1: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3272
Part 2: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3273
Part 3: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3274

We have had a few couples see good results from listening together to Dr. Harley's audiobooks in the car on a long drive. You might consider suggesting it to your wife. (Don't spring it on her!) His Needs, Her Needs is available as an audiobook, and so is Fall in Love, Stay in Love, Dr. Harley's introduction to his entire program and basic concepts.

*edit* Dr. Harley used to run a chain of many, many mental health clinics across Minnesota. He retired from that to work on his marriage program full time, and sold the clinics, but the experience informs his work, and on the radio I often hear him addressing various mental health problems, including depression.

You could probably get some very good pointers on which way to go by emailing Dr. Harley and his wife at their radio show and asking for help. Not only will Dr. Harley be able to talk about problems from an informed perspective, he will also be able to talk about how to get help in a way that supports your marriage.

But that said, the most common cause of depression in women is their relationship with their husband or boyfriend.

"When someone is truly depressed they lose hope."

Need some help mustering some hope myself. I am prepared to take a lot of responsibility for examining where I fall short meeting Ws needs and changing some behaviors. I find my own pain is a serious obstacle.

Currently I am seeing a psychologist re depression myself. I cannot imagine W meeting my EMs. Don't know where my willingness to try is coming from.
*edit*

This evening i spoke up.

I told W that her solitaireplaying is upsetting me. I stated that it ys interfering. I went on to say that when she is playing solitaire it feels like an emotional and psychological barrier to me. I told her she needs to know that this activity is upsetting me very much.

I also told W that when she sleeps in another room I feel lonely and sad. I told her that it takes away an experience of affection that I need and it takes away the opportunit for me to express affection.

Lastly I asked if it is ok for me to order the audio books for us to listen to together. She responded that that sounds like a good idea.

W put away the laptop and sat next to me on the couch. I liked that.

Now she has gone to bed in the other room. So only partial success for today. But i voiced concerns in a respectful and non threatening way, so that was a growth step for me.
*edit*

*edit* that is great that you spoke up. It sounds like she felt you were respectful in delivering your message, and it is great that she is willing to listen to the audio books together. I would go after this, order them fast, and get to listening! The best starting point is probably Fall in Love, Stay in Love, audio edition.

You got to spend some time with your wife. That is some progress. Be sure and tell her you enjoyed that time. Some time is better than no time. (I meant to mention that above when you commented that she would play cribbage with you, but then go back to solitaire.)

It may take your wife some time to process your complaint and decide how to respond, so be sure to be patient and non-demanding. You have let her know what is bothering you; let her think about it awhile, now.

Don't be a nag; invite her to spend time with you again tomorrow (having some specific suggestions in mind can help). Don't bring it up again for a week unless she brings it up. In the meantime, get those audio books, and get set up to listen to them with her!

I'll get a Kindle edition loaded to Ws iPad which we share for reading downloaded before I go to work. Next long drive will be a couple of weeks so the audio book can wait till then.

I was up during the night and W called out from the other room ssinf if I was alright. I replied " not really". When she asked what I meant I told her I felt lonely and sad. This was the identical phrase I had used to tell her how I feel when she sleeps in other room.

W brought he CPAP Sonia appliance and got in bed with me and I snuggled close and said "this is better. "

When I woke she had gone back to other room.

I have her attention. And she is getting the tone but not the intensity of my message. Thinks I am just asking for gestures.

We actually spend a lot of time together already. More than 20 hr per week. It just isnt UA. time. We need to turn off the tv and the laptops and well be doing better. I suggested reading aloud to each other.

*edit*

*edit* take note of the good things that happened. She can't be expected to read your mind fully, but she has been made aware that there is a problem, and has started to act to correct it. She may not be aware of all of the solutions, yet, but she sounds very responsive, JM. Those little gestures start to add up over time when they are consistent. But of course if you react negatively, they will never become consistent, and she'll be less likely to try anything more than a gesture.

Don't try to force the intensity of your message on her. She is still thinking about it.

As far as UA time -- plan a date. Most women love to be surprised with a date out where you have made all of the arrangements.

I agree that she is responding as the kind of caring partner tha she is.

Tomorrow and Thursday we have both arranged vacation days. We are going to Chicago for a live dance review, dinner and a couple of museums. All activities that we identified as interests using the activities questionnaire.

We'll have about five hours of driving both days. So lots of time to talk in the car. I mostly want to.communicate that my short term goal is to better understand her emotional needs. I can wait a while before asking her to better understand mine ( but not indefinitely, that's my past mistake).

My fear is that she lacks capacity rather than motivation to meet my emotional needs. Bear in mind that I've known this woman for nearly forty years. She has never been sexually responsive and I've been trying to meet her needs for a ver long time. In our 34years of marriage there have been only a handful of times we have made love more than once in a month.

I am putting myself fully into this effort but it would help me greally if I could find it plausible to imagine having my emotional needs met eventually and to some degree. I have motivation but I don't have hope.

*edit*

I agree that she shouldn't be playing so much Solitaire.
And like others said, she may be depressed.

But a better approach may not be to say "I don't think you should play so much Solitaire" but instead suggest alternative activities. "Would you like to go for a walk after dinner?"
"I got a new puzzle. Should we work on it later?"