Hi,
I'm a new member and I have to say I'm impressed with the level of concern and support many of you are showing for those with questions. I am 56 and my wife is 57. We have been married 34 years

To start with, I am terribly unhappy and frustrated because my wife has not made love with me in two years. We are about as far apart as we could be in terms of need for SF.

W sleeps in another room although I have expressed repeatedly that I miss her at night and feel sad and lonely. What I have been asking for is simple affection. I am so hurt by repeated brush-offs that I seldom attempt to initiate sex unless there is some sign that she is receptive, and that hasn't happened lately.

My individual counselor (for stress management) suggested that I explore this website. I have read the basic concepts and many of the articles and letters. Over the past 6 years,I have pleaded with W to see a doctor regarding depression, but she always gets angry if I attempt to discuss that.

Over the past month I have made many attempts to discuss how frustrated I am with W. On every occasion she has acknowledged the issue and recognized that "we need to re-establish our intimate relationship". She says that she is afraid. However, I cannot get her to express her views beyond that.

Two weeks ago she walked away from me while I was trying to talk with her about these issues while we were out walking our dogs. I thought is was just another kind of brush off.

But the next morning she came to my bed and initiated love making. Almost immediately we had to stop because she was experiencing vaginal pain. We agreed that she needs to get a medical appointment to check for the possibility of a physiological cause.

Well, she hasn't made an appointment yet. The message I'm getting is that our lack of intimacy and my unhappiness is not that important a problem to her point of view.

Meanwhile, I have been focusing on trying to be more aware of how I may be leaving her emotional needs unmet. I have stepped up my efforts to express affection throughout the day, offering companionship, and committing random acts of thoughtfulness.

I shared the recreational interests concessionaire because I hoped that would be safe and pleasant for her to talk about and we identified a nice variety of activities we would both like. This week we are both taking two vacation days and going on a mini-vacation to enjoy a stage show and a couple of museums.

I asked W to take a look at this web site so that we could discuss the ideas and suggestions.

This brings me to my question about the solitaire. W plays solitaire on her laptop computer for hours at a time. I'd gues it was more than six hours each on Saturday and Sunday. W knows this bothers me, but gets angry if I mention it. She says it is what she does to relax.

I feel playing solitaire that much is interfering with our lifes together. When I try to talk with her, she typically continues to play on the computer. I do not feel that we are having UA time together when she has the computer in her lap. I also resent that she hasn't (for example) read any of the material that I had hoped we could use as a starting point for discussion.

One dilemma for me. I feel that I am engaging in love busting behavior if I attempt to impose upon her to stop playing solitaire. I am an engineer and I could easily "disappear" games from her computer, but I have never done that because it would be heavy handed and abusive. Nor do I want to get pulled into nagging her about the issue. So I feel trapped. I don't feel that I can ethically insist that she stop.

I have tried offering to play cribbage with W when I see her start to play solitaire. We generally have a nice time doing that. But when we finish playing cards together, she goes right back to solitaire on the computer.

W seems terribly withdrawn and unhappy. I almost feel as though I should defer trying to address my own needs for now and try to help her improve upon what I believe is depression. However W is very resistant to facing this issue.

Although she denies that she has deprssion, W routinely makes statements about herself that declare that she is struggling. "I hate my job" (I've encouraged her to thin about alternatives). "I'm not as nice as I used to be." "I'm drowning and I can't see the surface".

I don't know how to cope with this, and I realizing I don't know how to care for myself in this situation either. My long standing habits of thought are to focus on W's needs, but it is clear to me that I am being harmed in the process.

As I write this, I am thinking that what I am presenting is more of a mental health crisis than a marriage crisis, so I'm wondering if this is appropriate for your forum.

Thanks for any help, or comfort, you can offer.

As I re-read my own post, I am appalled at the number of typos. I am visually impaired and it is difficult for me to see what I am typing. Please understand I was focused on the content.

Welcome to the forum **EDIT**. I thought your post was very readable so please don't worry about that.

It may be a mental health crisis, I don't know, but it is clearly also a marriage crisis and you need support.

Have you told your wife how her procrastinating about making an appointment to see the doctor is making you feel? 2 years is a really long time to go without sex in a marriage. Why did she start sleeping in another room?

Have you read any of the marriage builders books? You say you have started to think about her emotional needs, have you identified any you have left unmet specifically? Have you thought about Love Busters? Are there any of those that you have habitually done in the past that may have turned her away from you? She is clearly neglecting your needs right now but getting her to engage in the program if possible will probably have to be by way of showing her how she can benefit from it.

We have a long drive for our mini vacation and I thought about getting the his/needs book to read to each other in the car but it seems wiser to let the recreational trip be strictly fun. So I'll get the book but not bring it on that trip.

I am a pretty caring and sensitive person most of the time. I can think of a few habits W doesn't like, but I don't see myself as abusive or neglectful. I've been trying to meet her needs for a long time. I need W to share with me what she needs from me or I'm guessing.

I gave W a copy of the EN inventory but told her she needed to look at the background reading before trying to fill it out. Hence my frustration seeing her play solitaire for hours. I did fill out my own questionnaire hoping to set an example. I suppose that might have felt like a form of silent nagging to W.

But if I don't persist in trying to open communication,, I don't see how it will happen. I've gone too long avoiding saying anything that will upset W (or anyone else) and harmed myself too much by accepting having my needs unmet.

W has sleep apnia and doesn't return to sleep if anything wakes her. That is her main stated reason for sleeping in another room. I'd be ok with that if she would join me for some intimate time and then one of us could move when she is ready for sleep. When she puts on her CPAP mask it is like putting up a wall. Especially after many years of brush offs being her standard response to me.
On some level she gets it. On one occasion I described my predicament as far as SF by saying "I lose.". (Im not proud of having made that remark). W answered, " If you lose, I lose too". But then she continues to leave me unhappy. I think her aversions (which are a problem for her). are a stronger force to her than my unmet needs. ESP since I rarely complain.

Again. I need W's active help to learn how I can meet her needs better.

When someone is truly depressed they lose hope. She may need for you to make the Dr's appt and for you to go with her. In fact, I think you should go with her so that all of your concerns are addressed as well. One symptom of depression is hopelessness. You truly believe you're stuck and there's no way out. It often takes someone else taking the initiative to get things moving.

Obviously you can't force her to go. But if you gently explain that you love her and you can't stand there and let her suffer. Explain the dynamics of depression and that you see that she needs suport in order to get the help she needs.

WonderingIf,
You make a good point. I do need to make the case to W to get medical help as firmly yet compassionately as I can. I'll just have to accept the risk that she lashes out as a price I'll pay to do the right thing for my love. I can survive that if I know that I have done my best to do it in a loving way

I have alerted W's primary care doctor to my concerns. So if I can get her that far, she may get help.

Also on my mind is the thought that if I ask her to join me in counseling a good therapist may help her to see the value ofgetting help. The fact that my own psychologist suggested this site would bode well for a referral she might provide.

I see a need for W to hear from somebody she percieves as objective.

***edit*** welcome to Marriage Builders.

Reading through this, it is clear to me that she has fallen out love. Her emotional detachment is the problem and you are sensing that she has left the marriage. Which she has. The reason she won't make love to you is because women need 2 things to desire sex, an emotional attachment and the prospect of enjoyment. If one of those elements is missing, she won't have any desire to make love.

The solution is to fall in love again. I am sure she is just as frustrated and miserable as you because she WANTS to feel like engaging but just can't. She finds it impossible to fake it for long. Here is what Harley says about fixing the marriage:


What this program will do is restore her feelings for you if she will use it. It is going to take much more than just fiddling around the edges to turn this around. It will take a dramatic change in the way you both treat your relationship. Your behaviors will not sustain a marriage, but if you both change your behaviors, your wife will regain her feelings for you.

The way to do this is to start spending 20-25 hours per week together of undivided attention time, sleeping together every night [going to bed at the same time] and stopping the online solitaire.

1. Undivided Attention. [this will give you the biggest bang for your buck] Unless you and your wife spend 15 hours per week together meeting these top 4 emotional needs, affection, conversation, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment, it will be impossible to stay in love. It takes 15 hours to maintain, and 20-25 hours to create romantic love.
Policy of Undivided Attention

This time should be scheduled every week, writing out times, places, dates, etc.


2. Sleeping together every night. Ask her to commit to sleeping with you every night. Sleeping apart only adds to the detachment. She can get in the habit of doing this.

3. Giving up her online solitaire completely. Since this is a hobby that she enjoys more than her marriage now, she needs to give it up because of the contrast effect.

Those are the most glaring issues I see in your marriage. Scheduling 20+ hours of UA time per week will make the most dramatic effect on your marriage. Your wife will start feeling a difference in a few weeks. And in the meantime, I would get the book His Needs, Her Needs, Lovebusters and the accompanying workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love and start going through the lessons.

You can do this program on your own if you are very disciplined and motivated. If not, the Harley's offer excellent programs and counseling services that are bar none, the best there is. My H and I went through the seminar [now the online program where they assign you a coach and guide you through weekly lessons] back in 2007 with several other couples here and it made a huge difference in our marriage. Many others have done this.

And if your wife is not motivated to go do any of this, you might want to consider phone coaching with either of Dr Harley's children, Steve Harley or Dr Jennifer Chalmers.

I very much agree with this statement. Dr Harley addressed that issue with a man in your very situation over on the weekend forum:



And this article addresses your exact situation: When to Call It Quits(Part 3)By Willard F. Harley, Jr., Ph.D.

*edit* Dr. Harley had a call on his radio show last week that sounded really similar to this. Maybe some of the suggestions he gave can help you.

Part 1: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3272
Part 2: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3273
Part 3: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3274

We have had a few couples see good results from listening together to Dr. Harley's audiobooks in the car on a long drive. You might consider suggesting it to your wife. (Don't spring it on her!) His Needs, Her Needs is available as an audiobook, and so is Fall in Love, Stay in Love, Dr. Harley's introduction to his entire program and basic concepts.

*edit* Dr. Harley used to run a chain of many, many mental health clinics across Minnesota. He retired from that to work on his marriage program full time, and sold the clinics, but the experience informs his work, and on the radio I often hear him addressing various mental health problems, including depression.

You could probably get some very good pointers on which way to go by emailing Dr. Harley and his wife at their radio show and asking for help. Not only will Dr. Harley be able to talk about problems from an informed perspective, he will also be able to talk about how to get help in a way that supports your marriage.

But that said, the most common cause of depression in women is their relationship with their husband or boyfriend.

"When someone is truly depressed they lose hope."

Need some help mustering some hope myself. I am prepared to take a lot of responsibility for examining where I fall short meeting Ws needs and changing some behaviors. I find my own pain is a serious obstacle.

Currently I am seeing a psychologist re depression myself. I cannot imagine W meeting my EMs. Don't know where my willingness to try is coming from.
*edit*

This evening i spoke up.

I told W that her solitaireplaying is upsetting me. I stated that it ys interfering. I went on to say that when she is playing solitaire it feels like an emotional and psychological barrier to me. I told her she needs to know that this activity is upsetting me very much.

I also told W that when she sleeps in another room I feel lonely and sad. I told her that it takes away an experience of affection that I need and it takes away the opportunit for me to express affection.

Lastly I asked if it is ok for me to order the audio books for us to listen to together. She responded that that sounds like a good idea.

W put away the laptop and sat next to me on the couch. I liked that.

Now she has gone to bed in the other room. So only partial success for today. But i voiced concerns in a respectful and non threatening way, so that was a growth step for me.
*edit*

*edit* that is great that you spoke up. It sounds like she felt you were respectful in delivering your message, and it is great that she is willing to listen to the audio books together. I would go after this, order them fast, and get to listening! The best starting point is probably Fall in Love, Stay in Love, audio edition.

You got to spend some time with your wife. That is some progress. Be sure and tell her you enjoyed that time. Some time is better than no time. (I meant to mention that above when you commented that she would play cribbage with you, but then go back to solitaire.)

It may take your wife some time to process your complaint and decide how to respond, so be sure to be patient and non-demanding. You have let her know what is bothering you; let her think about it awhile, now.

Don't be a nag; invite her to spend time with you again tomorrow (having some specific suggestions in mind can help). Don't bring it up again for a week unless she brings it up. In the meantime, get those audio books, and get set up to listen to them with her!

I'll get a Kindle edition loaded to Ws iPad which we share for reading downloaded before I go to work. Next long drive will be a couple of weeks so the audio book can wait till then.

I was up during the night and W called out from the other room ssinf if I was alright. I replied " not really". When she asked what I meant I told her I felt lonely and sad. This was the identical phrase I had used to tell her how I feel when she sleeps in other room.

W brought he CPAP Sonia appliance and got in bed with me and I snuggled close and said "this is better. "

When I woke she had gone back to other room.

I have her attention. And she is getting the tone but not the intensity of my message. Thinks I am just asking for gestures.

We actually spend a lot of time together already. More than 20 hr per week. It just isnt UA. time. We need to turn off the tv and the laptops and well be doing better. I suggested reading aloud to each other.

*edit*

*edit* take note of the good things that happened. She can't be expected to read your mind fully, but she has been made aware that there is a problem, and has started to act to correct it. She may not be aware of all of the solutions, yet, but she sounds very responsive, JM. Those little gestures start to add up over time when they are consistent. But of course if you react negatively, they will never become consistent, and she'll be less likely to try anything more than a gesture.

Don't try to force the intensity of your message on her. She is still thinking about it.

As far as UA time -- plan a date. Most women love to be surprised with a date out where you have made all of the arrangements.

I agree that she is responding as the kind of caring partner tha she is.

Tomorrow and Thursday we have both arranged vacation days. We are going to Chicago for a live dance review, dinner and a couple of museums. All activities that we identified as interests using the activities questionnaire.

We'll have about five hours of driving both days. So lots of time to talk in the car. I mostly want to.communicate that my short term goal is to better understand her emotional needs. I can wait a while before asking her to better understand mine ( but not indefinitely, that's my past mistake).

My fear is that she lacks capacity rather than motivation to meet my emotional needs. Bear in mind that I've known this woman for nearly forty years. She has never been sexually responsive and I've been trying to meet her needs for a ver long time. In our 34years of marriage there have been only a handful of times we have made love more than once in a month.

I am putting myself fully into this effort but it would help me greally if I could find it plausible to imagine having my emotional needs met eventually and to some degree. I have motivation but I don't have hope.

*edit*

I agree that she shouldn't be playing so much Solitaire.
And like others said, she may be depressed.

But a better approach may not be to say "I don't think you should play so much Solitaire" but instead suggest alternative activities. "Would you like to go for a walk after dinner?"
"I got a new puzzle. Should we work on it later?"

I got up Wednesday morning and found my wife up filling in the emotional needs questionnaire! She also downloaded His Needs Her Needs to her Kindle to bring along on our mini vacation.

We both had a great time Wednesday and Thursday. W stated that she was glad we had come. We shared a couple of chapters of the HNHN book in the car on the drive.

This morning she is playing solitaire again, and when she got out the Kindle, she was reading a novel. So fits and starts, but more good than bad.

I have decided not to push further about the solitaire. Hard to do more without it becoming nagging and DJ. I'd rather deal with my frustration on this topic than start throwing love busters around. I will express to W that any time she is playing solitaire is by my definition NOT undivided attention time and let her know that she does not have my agreement enthusiastic or otherwise. It will be her choice how to use that information. I have let her know how I feel about the solitaire, but I'm going to choose not to be a nag about it.

W has not yet made the medical appointment that we had agreed (at least she said she agreed) she needs. Each time I ask she says "Yes I need to do that, I will do it". It has been more two weeks.

We can't really do anything about meeting my EA for SF until we have ruled out the small chance she has a physiological problem that needs medical treatment. Her procrastination about making the appointment seems like avoidance of considering my feelings, so I am frustrated. Her words tell me that she wants to improve the sexual aspect of our relationship, but her actions keep telling me otherwise.

Meanwhile, I am focusing a lot of effort on expressing affection. My own need for affection is pretty high, so this comes easily to me. In my own EN inventory, I listed "cheerfulness" and "empathy" as entries in my top five even they aren't among the ten categories suggested.

I am eager to know what she wrote in the questionnaire, but want us both to get further into the book before we try to discuss it. I get frustrated seeing her reading fiction for entertainment because I would like her to participate more actively in MB work. More avoidance? I haven't peeked at her answers because I think it is her choice when to share them with me.

To be fair, maybe I shouldn't be in quite so much of a hurry if W needs to take her time with opening up and communicating. That is hard for me because I don't like the way things are now, and she says she doesn't either. As I see it, every day that goes by without meeting each others' needs is a day of suffering.

I am avoiding making MB work into demands. So I am trying to keep my impatience to myself, but I know it shows. My own temperament is to persist at problem solving efforts. A few minutes of constructive discussion every few days is a good thing, but I find myself unable to focus on anything else in the time between.

I have only seen W genuinely "horny" on one occasion in the 38+ years of our relationship. And I think there has only been two occasions in her entire life when she asked for sex and didn't get it. I don't think she has any understanding or empathy for my emotional need for sex. I'd like to see her try testosterone patches for a couple of weeks so that she might gain some insight into the "world" I live in. W's lack of empathy makes it very hard for me to talk to her about sex. It is like being a bird trying to explain to a mammal how it feels to have my feathers pulled.

She has no idea how messed up I feel from the thousands of times she has brushed me off or the tens of thousands of times I've been afraid to approach her out of the anticipation of being rejected. She also doesn't seem to understand how this unhappiness has impaired my ability to enjoy offering affection and companionship. I have always tried to resist the temptation to retaliate by with holding responding to her emotional needs, but I have to admit I have often sulked.

I am considering telling W how very tempted I am to seek out another partner for sex. (which I haven't done yet) W is the one woman on earth whom I know will not meet my emotional needs. Every other woman I encounter seems like a better prospect because I don't know what response I might get. If it is 1 in a thousand, that's a better chance than I have at home.

A few years ago, W told me that she would understand if I sought sexual satisfaction with someone else. "Just don't bring anything home I don't want." I have never believed that I could do so without harming her terribly. So I don't feel that I have the freedom to do so regardless of her apparent permission.

*edit*

For your own integrity, Plan B her first, then divorce her if Plan b doesn't snap her out of it. THEN you can go find another sex partner. You will do as much if not more harm to yourself if you act on this now.

"I will not stay in a sexless marriage" is a perfectly sensible thing to say to her. She'll think you're bluffing, of course, unless you go dark in plan b and file.

Just please don't commit adultery. It will hurt YOU and leave a wide path of destruction around you.

I'd love to negotiate a way for W to get a good night's sleep. I am willing to try anything. I simply can't think of any solutions to offer.

I am willing to let W have complete control of the room (lighting conditions, window open or closed, fan blowing or not, furniture, bed covers, thermostat, location of the dogs) and I'll be happier as long as we are together.

W reports that any disturbance, many I cannot control such as rolling over or getting up quietly to pee, will wake her for the rest of the night.

W has been asking for a new mattress (a fair request). I have been reluctant because the voice in my head is reminding me that I'm going to be miserable on any mattress (I haven't voiced that). Now I'm thinking, "Get the mattress and make sure I sleep on it every night." W may not want to stay in the spare bedroom with an old mattress.

W's sleep apnia (CPAP) mask is a problem. It is a physical barrier to affection and to me a psychological barrier as well. I would like W to inquire about medical alternatives. I am ashamed to admit that I have shared the observation that it is like trying to cuddle Darth Vader. (Darth Vader's mask is an accurate representation of a CPAP mask, even the sound effects).

Workable for me would be:
1) Begin the night in bed together with W not wearing the sleep apnia mask. Allow time for some affectionate cuddling. This time isn't over until we agree that it is or one falls asleep.
2) Once there has been some time for affection, W may do whatever she feels she needs to do for comfortable sleep. Put on the mask, move to the other room, hang upside down in the closet, what ever she wants.
3) On weekends, spend some time together for a cuddle in the morning.
4) I'll cope with waking up alone if that's how it works out. The rest of the plan will help meet my emotional need for affection and perhaps occasionally for sex.

I'm not preparing to commit adultery.

Note my words, "I have never believed that I could do so without harming her terribly. So I don't feel that I have the freedom to do so regardless of her apparent permission."

I was talking about perhaps needing to tell W that it is on my mind. Seems radical honesty demands that I do tell her.

Edited to protect personally identifiable information

Well, another 12 or so hours of solitaire this weekend. Arrgh!

My belief is W is depressed and the solitaire is an addiction. Well, I'm not going to get sucked into throwing around LB bombs over this. I have voiced my opinion to her. I cannot control this behavior. If I try for control, I lose the possibility of influence. I am going to focus on doing a better job of meeting W's needs. Hopefully as she gets happier, she may be easier to reach on this issue. Not good for me to sacrifice on this topic, but I hope to make it temporary.

W and I have made a date to discuss our EM inventories on Wednesday. She has filled her questionnaire out, but hasn't done any more reading in HNHN since we read some together in the car last week. I suggested that she read a bit more before Wednesday. Hoping she isn't too busy playing solitaire but didn't make that remark. (Getting hard to restrain myself from making DJ about it)

W is a sensitive, caring partner. My big fear in all this is that she is already doing the best she can to meet my EN.

I will love her always. And I respect and appreciate her. It breaks my heart to see her hurt. I am considering that we need counseling support because I can only be radically honest if I am assured that she will receive some support at those moments when my own expressions of love may not have enough comforting effect.

It is very difficult for me to be open about topics that may be painful to W. I'm tied up in knots from withholding information about my frustration and that's going to be a terribly hard habit to break. If I know that W will receive some help coping, that will make it a bit easier for me to speak freely.
CiGB?

Five days have passed and there has been no feedba k on my last couple of posts.

Is there a reason I'm not getting a response?
Did I do something wriong oroffensive?

The posters may be waiting to hear what YOU have done, CIGB. It appears that you've done nothing:

This addiction is eroding your marriage. Why are you allowing it? You have received splendid advice on how to get her back on track with your marriage (go back and read MelodyLane's and Markos' posts, specifically.) What have YOU done?

We can't help you if you're not going to help yourself. I, personally, would have expected her to be off the solitaire games entirely by now, IF YOU LISTENED TO THE ADVICE YOU WERE GIVEN.

Fair enough. Here is a summary of some of what I have done.
--Told her that the solitaire is upsetting me and creating a barrier between us.
-- Told her that sleeping separately is causing me to feel lonely and unhappy.
-- obtained her agreement to read the Mb books and purchased.Hnhn, lovebusters and the workbook
-- printed copies of the questionnaires and obtained her agreement to fill them and discuss them
-- Scheduled a mini vacation with time in the car to begin reading hnhn together and enjoy soe UA time
-- obtained her agreement to see a doctor
-- made a date for Saturday to discuss the emotional needs inventory.
-- filled and discussed the recreational interest inventory together

Today, I filled out the en questionnaire as I think she would answer the question. I found that by my own self assessment I I believe that I need to offer more domestic support. I will step up my helping with household chores pending getting an opportunity to read her en eval. She has filled the questionnaire but hasn't gotten further with the reading. She agreed to read the articles on poja and ua time which I will print. I wanted her to read those two topics before we discuss ou en survey answers.

What I find tough is that she is not cooperating but in a very cooperative way !

She has agreed to participate in a mb process. Even enthusiastically. But her procrastination and avoidance is sabotaging the effort. When she says "Yes I'll read it. Yes I'll fill it out. Yes I'll make an appointment. " there isn't much more for me to say at those moments.

Then when she doesn't do it. Or does only a small part, the question is how to keep things on track without nagging. How to express doubt about what she will do without DJ.

Part of my answer is to have patience. I am getting some response. It seems to me that I can better adress the solitaire issue once she has read poja. So it is worth waiting a few more days and making sure I put a copy of the poja article into her hands before I get firmer about solitaire.

I asked her how she felt about getting a new mattress and she was pleased. So I will make sure I get that done with her. It seems like the point about sleeping in the same bed should be part of the discussion she I share my answers on the en needs questionnaire. I will tell her then that my need for affection is not going to be met if she sleeps in other room. But she has to read about poja for it to matter when I tell her that.

I am trying to balance between being reasonable about respecting her pace a
While not allowing procrastination to torpedo my effort. I see danger both in pushing too hard and in not pushing enough. I am trying to achieve gentle persistance.

My gentle ways do make me an easy mark for her style of passive resistance.

Meanwhile I am also stepping up my expressions of affection. I've been giving w lots of random hugs and kisses. Making gestures like bringing her tea. Sending affectionate emails from work. She seems to like it but it doesn't seem to brighten her mood. I'm not sure any of the four "intimate" needs rank in her top five.

W has filled out the en questions, but I haven't peeked. Somehow it doesn't seem right to read it until she places it in my hands and invites me to read.
CIGB

"This addiction is eroding your marriage. Why are you allowing it? You have received splendid advice on how to get her back on track with your marriage (go back and read MelodyLane's and Markos' posts, specifically.) What have YOU done? "

I'm not a policeman or Ws parent. I cannot allow or disallow anything she chooses to do. It seems the POJA is really the best (perhaps only) tool I have to stop this behavior and then only if W chooses to treat my needs, feeling, opinion on the matter with care and respect.

I am not a disrespectful husband. And I cannot impose my judgement upon my wife. Even (especially) when I "know" I am right

This makes no sense. Why are you here, then, if you're not going to do anything to eliminate this danger to your M?

This all looks good on paper, but I've highlighted parts of your list to show you how little has actually been done. There's a lot of talking going on. Not so much action. While she continues to isolate herself from you by immersing herself in an electronic game.

Other than persuasion, how would you suggest that I "not allow" W to play solitaire without being abusive?

I did note the post suggesting plan-B. My problems developed over nearly 40 years. A few weeks more seems a small price to pay for even a small chance of getting a positive response before going nuclear.

A lot needs to build upon having W understand the POJA particularly as a foundation for negotiating about these issues. I have a "date" with W for tomorrow to read the POJA articles together and discuss them. Only then can I apply POJA by stating that I can not agree (enthusiastically or otherwise) to W continuing to play solitaire while neglecting my needs.
cigb

I never stopped sleeping in my bed. W moved to the other room. Plan to take her shopping for a new mattress she's been asking for this weekend. It will be interesting to see if she chooses to sleep on it! Another topic that needs to build upon discussing the POJA article first.

The mini-vacation was last week and we had a good time going to the touring show for the So You Think You Can Dance winners. W stated she was glad she had come. We read two chapters of HNHN in the car together.

We identified dance, viewing and participation as a recreational activity we would both enjoy. I asked W to select a dance class for us to enroll. She suggested one and I enthusiastically agreed. Next step is to ensure she makes the call to sign us up.

This is a bit of a medical footnote to my post that will follow. Feel free to skip this post if you are looking for my narrative. This is for those who will be inclined to ask me "what medications are you taking and why?"

I have chronic facial pain caused by damage to my trigeminal nerve. My doctor believes the nerve damage was caused by a past viral infection.

To manage this pain I take Carbatrol, Cymbalta and Oxymorphone.

Carbatrol is an anti-epileptic and is the mainstay of my pain control. I take 400mg of timed release carbatrol twice daily.

Cymbalta is an anti-depressant that was prescribed for additional pain control. It is uncertain that it is helping with the pain, so I am taking a reduced dosage to come off of this drug gradually and safely. Currently at 30mg 2x day. Next week am scheduled to reduce to 30mg 1x day for 30 days. Then discontinue.

Oxymorphone is a powerful opiod "pain killer". Over the past 6 months I have been taking a gradually reducing dosage to hopefully get off of this medication. I've come down from 120mg daily to 40-50mg daily. As this dosage is reduced I simply have to live with more pain.

All of these medications have some sedative effect. I pay a price in "foggyness" and lower energy level for the relief I get from pain. That is the main reason I am weaning myself from the meds.

W questions my further reduction in the pain medication, particularly the oxymorphone, because she believes that I am in too much pain already.

I don't have any prospect of relief through surgery. After 6 years of I have no expectation that the pain will ease over time.

I also use a topical testosterone supplement. This was prescribed because a side effect of the pain medication has been to cause me to have low testosterone levels.

Saturday W and I spent pretty much all day discussing our Emotional Needs inventories.

W indicated a need for more affection from me. She has noticed my increased attention to providing affection in recent weeks and this doesn't need to continue to be a problem area. I enjoy showing affection and I'm confidant I can continue to improve.

W had identified Domestic support as the emotional need that she needs to see the most improvement in my meeting her need. I suggested that the corrective plan begin with me spending an additional hour per day on housework with a focus on keeping the kitchen clean every day. I will continue to do a major share of meal preparation as I enjoy cooking. She found this plan constructive.

We are at a stalemate regarding my need for SF. W sees this as an important need and wants to meet it, but finds it too difficult. She didn't suggest any solutions.

W tells me that she feels terribly guilty about not meeting my sexual needs. This puts me in an awful double bind. How can I be so cruel as to tell her my needs are not being met when I know that thinking about the topic makes her feel so bad? If I do try to discuss it, all my energy winds up going into comforting W, and nothing happens to address my the problem from my point of view.

I am really messed up in my own head over the topic of SF. Instead of being a good thing, my desire for her is a cause for her anxiety and pain. It is hard to feel good about my own nature. In addition, I am so raw from being rejected thousands of times, that I cringe upon being asked what do I want.

W has moved to our bed with me. I know that she is trying to connect. She said to me. "If I try to make love to you and it goes badly, then you'll blame me and make it my fault."

I explained that I did not expect sex to commence immediately, that I know this is a process that will take some time. I also told her that when such an incident did occur three weeks ago, that I regarded it as an "awkward, uncomfortable, step in the right direction."

My own emotional state has fallen like a rock. I don't have a sense of hope that W has the determination to overcome her aversion and fears. She knows I'm badly discouraged.

So here's a question you may not have seen before:

For medical reasons explained in my previous post, I use a testosterone supplement. If I don't use the topical supplement, my own libido is greatly diminished. Emotionally I feel diminished as well.

I am thinking about proposing that I discontinue the testosterone supplement for a limited time, say 1 or two months. During that time, W may perceive less pressure to respond sexually. Hopefully during the same period, the plans we have made to better meet her emotional needs may begin to help us re-connect as a couple.

This may also provide a time for us to do some touching exorcises with less pressure on W to try to be pleasuring me. She could focus only on enjoying being touched and work on her expectations of pleasure.

I'm hesitant, because it doesn't seem wise to deliberately manipulate my own health for W's benefit. But this would be temporary. Is this too drastic?

Has your wife made the appointment with her doctor (as previously discussed) to discuss possible remedies for any physical (due to menopause) barriers to intercourse?

No she hasn't.
I explained yesterday that this made me question her intention to get it done. She promised to make the apt today.
She did seem to mean it.
I will remind her.

In the meantime, till her possible medical/ menopause issues with intercourse are resolved, can you find someway to POJA other sexual activities, such as the touching exercises, manual or oral stimulation? Would have to be POJA, enthusiastic agreement of course. Nothing that she would object to. You say,


I think using POJA, you would both suggest possible solutions. From "4 Guidelines for Successful Negotiation" on this site


I have heard other, more experienced advisors on this site suggest bringing up the issue for discussion once/week (so it doesn't dominate your UA time, yet it isn't forgotten), brainstorming, and being careful to avoid lovebusters during the discussion. And be sure to do other fun things during your UA time so you are falling in love again.

In a post a few back, you said you agreed on dance classes , but you said she would be calling to schedule. I wondered why you couldn't call and schedule, since one issue seems to be that she agrees to a certain course, but procrastinates about following through.

I don't think you should feel guilty about asking her to meet your needs as long as you POJA, if you let your giver take over and let that slide, it will be bad for your relationship in the long run. It is wonderful that she has agreed to come back to your marital bed!

The dance class sigh up is through her employer, so hard for me to provide the initiative. She did bring home the sign up form so we can fill it out tonight.

We had nice dog walks together Saturday and Sunday and have planned a long family weekend for this weekend (Thanksgiving in October for us so we can do it at "the cottage").

Very hard for me to get POJA going for SF. I worked very had this weekend at trying to do that. Cannot get W to put forth brainstorming ideas of her own.

W asked me to suggest ways I'd like her to pleasure me, but rules out what she already knows I like. Maybe ten years ago, I made a list of 10 or so activities I thought I might like and gave it to her. She seemed offencded and the next day I saw the list on the floor with tennis sho footprints on it. I brought this up to try to explain why it is so hard for me to answer her question.

W says she still has that letter! At first I thought that is good news. But I wonder, why keep the letter for ten years and never do anything with the suggestions? Why ask me now, if all she's done with the information is hide it in her diary? It feels like offering my ideas is just supplying additional ways for me to be rejected.

I love giving and SF orally. W loves receiving, but shows little willingness to give. She told me once that she gets no emotional satisfaction from giving pleasure. That bell is still ringing in my head!

Manual stimulation is nice as part of foreplay, but as a "main event" I'd rather pleasure myself in private without an indifferent audience.

There could be something else I'd like a lot, but I haven't discovered or imagined it. If she would suggest some things she'd like to try maybe we could find something.

I don't see how POJA will work as long as she regards leaving my emotional needs unmet as an acceptable outcome.

W asked me what my agenda is. I replied.
It should not be acceptable to either of us for the other's emotional needs to be unmet.
It should not be acceptable to either of us to behave in a manner that hurts the other. (love busters)
When we identify a case of unmet needs or hurtful behavior we should work together with DETERMINATION as a team to solve the problem.

What I see lacking in W's response is determination. She doesn't want to hurt me, but she is not determined to overcome the obstacles to meeting my needs.

For my part, i can't seem to manage the "abandon". I feel like I'm in a minefield. My suggestions my scare or offend W. And I feel like the best I can hope for is for W to be nice about how she rejects them.

I don't know how to negotiate this. I need support and I need help getting past the emotional pain that I know is impairing me from expressing myself openly.

Does your wife know (from you telling her specifically, not just you thinking, "she must know") that you feel this way? I think you need to share that with her, maybe after you make sure she understands the next paragraph here. If you don't share that info with her, it's like your bank not telling you your account is overdrawn. Sure you'll be upset with that info, but you need to know! (analogy credit to Melody Lane, I think)

Has she read the 4 principles of successful negotiation? Print that out for her. I think the short print outs are easier to get the reluctant spouse to read initially, rather than a whole intimidating book. Maybe if you can reassure her you intend to follow those (make it safe for her), she will be more willing to engage?

Melody Lane frequently quotes something like (hope I'm getting this right):

Women need 2 things to want to have sex,

1) being in love with partner (and I suspect she is not there right now- withdrawal, playing solitaire- but you are heading in the direction of making that happen, UA time and meeting her emotional needs ) and

2) the prospect of enjoyment (and that is the reason for the doctor visit, if she has significant genital changes from lack of estrogen, idea of penetration may scare the bejeesus out of her. But, I think you need to open your mind to the possiblity of sexual interaction with no penetration, at least in the initial stages of this process. A postmenopausal woman who has not had intercourse for years is unlikely to be able to comfortably have it without some medical intervention)

As a woman, I totally agree with those 2 needs.

I think if you feel you are at an impasse, email the radio show and talk to Dr Harley and Joyce, or schedule a phone appt with Dr. Steve Harley (his son). Sometimes issues are too complex to solve with books and the forum alone, and maybe you're there. I'd just hate to see you give up-- being in a wonderful marriage is worth all the trouble.

I'm cheering for you to hang in there! Don't let yourself be so nice and understanding that you eventually let loose with lovebusters. That would be the trouble with letting your giver be in charge totally.

I told her very directly AND I don't think she understands how hard it is for me to talk to her about SF.

I told her that I am hurting from the pattern of rejection and I told her that I feel "I don't have any room for error or mistakes in what I say to her".

I'm not all that much at risk letting loose a tide of AO. The angrier I get the more I shut down, so I won't regret speaking in anger. I do sulk, but it much easier to repair the damage from a sulk than an AO.

It just keeps getting harder to open up.

IMO - no, a silent sulk is harder for me to deal with. They both piss me off, but at least with an AO I have an idea of what my husband is thinking. The silent sulk is in itself a LB, I'm not sure how the Harley's classify it, but it's higher on my personal list than an AO.

Fair enough. I'll think on that. In my mind, by going silent I am protecting W from angry exaggerated words I might speak that are impossible to retract. I am recognizing that I am angry and irrational, so I am putting my potential for impulsive words in lock down mode. When I've regained some composure I discuss the incident if W wishes. Even though my angry words are not likely to go nuclear, if I am feeling tempted to make hurtful remarks, it is ethical for me to restrain myself from doing so.

I'll agree it isn't a good thing to do, but ensures that I won't do worse.

This doesn't happen often, maybe a couple times a year.

W has now shared bed three nights running. Seems to intend to continue.

I have been doing meals and mainaining kitchen.

W has praised and thanked me for starting this journey.

My mood plunge the past couple of days stems from hoping for too much from our first attempt at negotiation. The results are actually very good, and I need to be more patient. I know this, but I need a sense of "Help is coming."

So, did she make the appointment?

I chose not to ask. Fearful of being perceived as a nag.
I did send her an email yesterday with the phone number for making the appointment. As well as a couple of simple "thinking of you" emails.

I won't let this go, but I have to balance between persistence and being a pest.

Last night I asked W about her perceptions of my sulking. Does she see it as a problem. She doesn't see it as something that happens often and doesn't feel threatened when it occurs. In the past we've joked that she doesn't always notice when I'm sulking. Very frustrating to sulk and have no one notice!

If we apply the principle that the victim is the best judge of whether abuse is taking place, I find it reassuring that W does not seem overly concerned. Worth avoiding just the same. I'll try calmly explaining why I am upset next time if I can manage it.

The most usual trigger for my sulking is being told to "Shut Up". I feel anger every time that happens. I need to evaluate if I am engaging in some DJ that is the trigger for W to tell me to shut up. Next it happens, I'm going to think about my own immediate prior actions before I react.

This isn't an easy post for me to write. But I cannot call my posts honest if I don't disclose this. I am a former wayward husband.

Thirty years ago while W was pregnant with our DD (now 29) I had an affair with a co-worker for about three weeks. I was not discovered. I "fessed up". I was out of the house for about two months. I called W, received permission to come home, and did so. I had already broken contact with OW. I have had no contact for over 29 years now.

I make no excuse. I acknowledge that what I did hurt W terribly. It is the act that I am most ashamed of in my life history.

Since then, I have striven to be a good husband and a good father and I believe I have achieved some success at both.

I do not no how this context effects what I need to do in the present to work for a better marriage. The incident feels like deep past to me. I've grown and changed a lot since then. But I'd be foolish to think that the hurt is gone or forgotten. W has not made a habit of recriminating about the incident, seldom mentions it, and only then in reasonable discussion about her feelings and our history.

Those are the bare facts. I'll answer fair questions, and I'll read whatever feedback forum members feel I have coming regarding this for the lessons I may learn.

W turned in our enrollment for dance class, begins Nov 9th.

No dr appointment yet. I'm persisting on that issue.

Still lots of solitaire. W calls it an escape. No traction on this issue. W doesn't see a reason or benefit to change.

Main issue for me: I need better comm skill ( and courage ) to respectfully insist on accountability from W regarding issues where I am a "stake holder" in her behavior choices. I will persist, but I haven't responded assertively when I meet passive resistance. Or is it passive aggression?

I think we need some counseling or mediation because improving my negotiating skills is going to take time and won't come all at once. In the meantime I need the assistance holding my own in this process.

W is sleeping in our bed nightly now. This is good. But it is also harder for me than sleeping alone was. W seems kind of indifferent to affection ( I'm not attempting to initiate SF). Having her close but aloof is harder for me than sleeping apart. I am craving affection and I am craving SF. Not sleeping well.

Last night I had an out of control intense headache. I asked W to hold me. She spooned against my back for a while but something was lacking. Empathy? I can't explain why it wasn't meeting my need but it wasn't.

I confessed to Dd (29 yr old) about the affair from 30 yr ago. Since it is disclosed here, I felt it best that she hear it from me.

Turns out W told her about it four years ago. I told DD I would answer any questions she cared to ask. She had none. DD encouraged me to seek counseling with W.

I needed to discover that I can be honest with DD about my past mistakes and still have her love and respect. With that incident disclosed there is nothing I would fear for her to learn about me.

I am betting that if you and your wife spent enough time together, and she was affectionate and met your other needs, that you wouldn't care about the solitaire.

So instead of focusing on the solitaire, I would focus on the fact that she is moving toward meeting your needs. Dance class, sleeping in the same bed with you, engaging in some recreational activities with you -- that sounds huge!

Have you listened to the audio books, yet?

And since you had an affair, have you read Surviving an Affair?

Given what your wife has been through, I would not judge her for needing an escape.

Just made a date with W for dinner and a movie tonight. Tomorrow we are driving North for another mini-vacation together. We were scheduled to go today, but W was not feeling well yesterday and suggested I go ahead and she would come tomorrow in a separate car. I said I preferred to travel together and I would wait until she is ready to go.

Your right. If my emotional needs were being met, I could easily accept the solitaire. The reason it bothers me is that it seems to be a barrier to addressing other issues.

I have read HNHN, I'm 3/4 way through Love Busters, and have been reviewing the workbook. Since you suggest it, I'll get and read Surviving an Affair.

We were listening to HNHN together in the car on her Kindle on our mini-vacation but that's all she's read. If she had spent 1/4 of the time she has been playing solitaire since I obtained the books and she said she agreed to read them, reading the materials (sitting in the same chair holding the same computer in her lap) she would have read all of the materials by now. That is why it is upsetting to me, because when she is playing solitaire the opportunity is lost to be doing activities that could be building our relationship.

I have not been nagging about the solitaire for the very reason that I do see it as a side issue. I told her it is upsetting to me and I haven't spoken to her about the solitaire since.

The issue isn't how much time we are together, it is the quality of the attention we are giving each other. I would estimate that we are well over 30 hours per week in the same room together alone every week. But with the TV on and W playing solitaire, I wouldn't begin to call it UA time.

As for moving toward meeting my needs. Not so much! All of the behaviors you listed are great steps in the right direction, but they are steps I instigated out of a desire to better meet her needs. Even so I had to persist to draw her into them. Don't mis-understand, I am pleased and I am committed to making those activities enjoyable for both of us.

As I indicated, sleeping in the same bed is harder for me. It isn't (yet) meeting my emotional needs. I pushed that issue because I recognize that re-building the emotional connection needs to come first. I hope it will get easier.

When W and I discussed the emotional needs questionnaire I put forth meaningful practical proposals to better meet the needs that she identified for herself. I have been following through every day.

As far as my need for SF. W told me that she feels bad that she isn't meeting them and that she finds it difficult to do so. Nothing she said raised any hope. She hasn't yet made the doctor appointment that she agreed 4 weeks ago to make.

In POJA terms she might as well have said, "OK, we'll do nothing. I do feel bad about it, but YOU LOSE."
I won't withhold affection, or companionship, or conversation in retaliation or as a bargaining chip. So how do I negotiate?

I didn't and don't expect an immediate turn around in meeting my SF needs. But it is very hard to sustain this effort without some encouragement from W that it will eventually get better.

This afternoon, I handed her her cell phone and asked her to call her doctor. She said OK. Then she popped up from the chair where she'd been playing solitaire for 4 hours and started doing laundry chores.

I can't, and I shouldn't have to solve all of the problems on my own.

So, if you have the TV on and she's playing solitare, have you ever turned the TV off and asked her to do something with you?

Often.
But I can, and will, do better.

Perhaps you noticed that I began my last post describing plans for activities with W.

W is on the phone now making medical appointment!

Appointment is Dec 22.
That's an important step.
It's a good step.

Had a pretty good evening... on balance.

At supper, W took out her Kindle to read while we were sitting together waiting for a table. I said "I'm thinking of an animal!"
She took the hint and closed the book and talked with me. Over supper she got out her Droid phone and played with an app, but I was able to draw her back into conversation.

We skipped the movie because my head was hurting. Really it was.

When we got home I cleaned the kitchen and went to bed. W tried to tell me I didn't have to do the kitchen while I was hurting, but I said I am working on building a new habit and won't let it slide. W stayed up till past 1am playing solitaire with cartoons on the TV.

When W came to bed I asked where we stand on SF between now and her medical appointment in two months. *edit* She said she wanted to try to make love.

*edit*

The she had a coughing fit. I told her that perhaps it was best to leave it at that. I had experienced emotional satisfaction because she had enjoyed having me touch her.

This was very difficult for me to set aside my own frustration for the moment. But, I will continue to promote this kind of activity because I am hoping that it will help build her expectation of enjoyment. If there is less pressure from me, then hopefully she will be less defensive and fearful.

I seem do be doing many of the right things, but I'm not thinking very positive thoughts. I continue to be very discouraged. I think that my actions are on the right track, but my head is not.

Emotionally, I'm in deep water and I need W to throw me a lifeline.

CanItGet, that might be just a little bit explicit for this board!

That may be so, but if you want them solved, you may have to do more than your fair share.

Because of the way men and women are differently wired, it is often men that have to do the pursuing.

When your wife gets to the point where you have made enough love unit deposits in your account in her love bank, she will be in love with you. At that point, everything will change. Dr. Harley says he has men who wake up one morning and wonder what hormones their wife took, because suddenly everything changed when they got to the point where their wives are suddenly in love with them. It's not gradual, it's sudden, and without warning.

So I would focus on making those love bank deposits for her, on studying how to do that and how to get better at it. You may have a balance in your account in her love bank that is in the negative thousands. What deposits are you making?

Can you listen to these?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3324
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3325
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3326
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3327

Point taken. I went back to edit but found it already done

I'll give them a listen next opportunity. Traveling and checking in with cell phone till Sun. Night So not easy till then.

I found the quoted portion of your post depressing. W seems to bar the door to the love bank when I attempt to make deposits. For example: when I took her out to supper yesterday, she took out her kindle to read.

I am afraid to communicate with W about her LB. If I complain about a DJ she doesn't see her words as anything unreasonable even though I know she would take offense if I said the same thing to her. So I just take it. Would it not cost me Love bank units to point out that she is hurting my feelings if she won't see it from my point of view?

So I should just roll with the punches because with that huge negative balane I can't afford to lose more by telling W when she is being unkind.

Have you read the principle of radical honesty? She needs to know how you feel about her behavior.

I have heard it suggested that feedback about DJ be confined to one predefined time/week, so as not to intrude on your enjoyable ua time. She can give you feedback about your love busters at the same time.

However, if I was at dinner with my husband and he pulled out a kindle, I would say, "sweetie, I was hoping to spend this time enjoying conversation with my favorite guy! I feel distracted when you are using the kindle."

Can, ask her not to use her kindle or her phone when you are out together. Its really that simple. My H gets very upset when I take calls or whip out an Ipad when I am with him.

You are going to have to prioritize the different problems in your marriage. Your wife is not likely to be motivated to change her behavior until you make more love bank deposits into her account.

Have you read all four sections here:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3600_state.html
(Intimacy, Conflict, Withdrawal, How One Spouse Can Lead the Other Back to Intimacy)

Have you considered getting Dr. Harley on the phone for free and asking him about your situation?
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html

If the Love Bank appears to be closed, it is due to withdrawal. This is not permanent. She will give you the opportunity, if you are patiently waiting and ready. And the actions you are taking to deposit love bank units, will have an impact, even if it isn't visible yet. Usually the impact is not visible for a long time, not until you hit the romantic love threshold, and then you see a sudden (not gradual) change.

A typical woman's top two emotional needs are affection, and conversation, so I would focus attention here:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5010_qa.html
(Try doing everything on that list every day, for three months.)
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5056_qa.html
(Practice using Dr. Harley's "friends" of good conversation and eliminating the enemies of good conversation.)

Do this. Turn yourself into the world's best conversationalist and most affectionate husband, and see what happens!

I know this is good advice and I am actively working specific plans every day to better meet the needs W identified as most important.

I think my actions are mostly on the right track. My emotions are not following.

What I'm asking for here is help maintaining a hopeful attitude

I wantto ask W to fill out the love busters form so that I can focus some effort on eliminating my unhelpful beavers. The problem is I am reluctant to fill out the form myself and share my answers with W.

I am prepared to regard every issue W identifies as valid and to alter my behavior to stop love busting. If I don't "get it" I will adjust my behavior anyways and perhaps POJA the issue when things are going better.

I don't anticipate W accepting my LB feedback as valid. I expect an aggressive and defensive response. If I communicate a complaintt it will cost me love units I cannot afford to withdraw.

In other words. I think I should learn about Ws complaints because I am prepared and committed to a constructive response. I think w needs to get to that place first before I can safely share my LB concerns.

I've known this woman for 40 years and think I am familiar with how she responds

Okay, then how about for the first round, you just ask her to fill it out? You can tell her "I know that I have probably done some of these things to you. I would like your perspective on what I have done that has hurt you or caused problems for you, and how I can change."

We all change in life. Married people need to change for each other if they want their marriage to grow happier.

Frankly in many situations, the husband needs to go first and win his wife over. Particularly if that husband has been unfaithful in the past.

Look at your wife as if you were not married to her and wanted to date her. How would you behave to make yourself attractive to her, catch her interest, and get her interested in dating you full time?

Realistically, here is how this works:

How One Spouse Can Lead the other Back to Intimacy

Thank you Markos.

I know I have been getting whiny. Called my neurologist today and asked for help with depression. Had blood drawn for lab work. I'll see what she recommends.

Tomorrow w has a family event three hour drive from work. I worked late today so I can leave work early to drve with W.

Three hour drives are great UA time! Chat it up, and remember the friends of good conversation! (Be mindful of the enemies, as well.) You read that article, right?

That is why I offered to ride with W. We'll use part of the time to listen to HNHN or Love Busters using her Kindle. My strategy for dealing with her bringing along the Kindle has been to ask her to load some books we can share. It works better if she drives. When I drive, W tends to haul out personal reading or go to sleep. When she drives, she wants conversation to help pass the time. If sleepy, I'll lean back and close my eyes, but I'll stay in the conversation.

I almost always hold W's hand when we are in the car together. Also in restaurants except while we're eating. She seems to be very pleased when people around us notice the hand holding.

I don't really like spending time with her family, though I've learned not to say so (especially when she says so herself!) Her sisters are lovely warm people, her brothers are drinkers and disrespectful of women. W's father's standard reply to "How are you?" is "Hateful as ever." W has 6 brothers who've had 6 divorces. Both sisters are in good marriages.

W grew up in a household where family conversation consisted of verbal abuse disguised as humor. As an adolescent girl, she was mocked by her 6 brothers for her appearance. My parents would not have tolerated it. I try to remember that when I'm on the receiving end of DJ. She's worked at learning to keep her claws in and I'm getting what leaks through her filters, not the full force of what what she learned at the family dinner table.

Get a good night's sleep, and be sure to drink plenty of coffee. Eye contact can be important in conversation, so if you can avoid having to close your eyes it may help. For your wife, the conversation is very likely about the connection she feels, rather than the content (which we men tend to focus on ), so this may be an important key to meeting her emotional need.


Okay, excellent! That sounds like another great way to deposit some love units.


Hopefully down the road you guys can work out a solution to this that you are both enthusiastic about. But for now your number one problem to solve has got to be filling your account in her love bank.

Just wanted to repost this in case you missed it at the end of the last page break.

Eliminating any love busters on your part is going to be crucial. What love busters do you think she would say you commit? Can you try filling out the LBQ yourself, about you from her perspective? Do you think she would fill it out if you ask?

The big misconception I labored under for a long time here was the idea that I just had to make the love busters "better." Get the angry outbursts down to once a month and the selfish demands down to only one a day, right? Wrong! They've really got to be eliminated. You have to have a very high standard for yourself.

Due to my damaged facial nerve, it becomes painful for me to keep my eyes open as the day goes on. Sometimes this is a challenge for me in a normal work day. W understands that the reason I close my eyes is the medical problem. When I make eye contact, what she sees is pain. I try to communicate my attentiveness through reflective listening and gestures such as squeezing her hand when she says something important to her.


Not really much to do about W's family. I'm always courteous with them and supportive about W's issues with them. I follow her lead on contact with her family. I encourage and enthusiastically join visits with her sisters who are very nice people that I like a lot.

Evening with the in-laws went smoothly. Lovely conversation on drive to the event. On the way home W wanted radio on in car, so I chatted about the music the channel was playing.

Kept my reluctance to pose with group photos to myself. Didn't cost me anything.

Quote from W on the way home. "I wasn't going to make you come along, but I'm glad you did."

Good to hear you had some positive UA time! Good for both of you.

Three days ago W enthusiastically initiated SF. Hurray!
She had a good experience, but ended the session without my having physical satisfaction. Even so, her enthusiasm was a balm to me.

The next day I expressed. A) We need to be a bit less spontaneous. I had taken my max prescribed pain killer dosage earlier (bad pain day). If we plan ahead, I can delay taking my pain meds and respond better physically. This is an easy problem to solve. B) About 70% of my focus was on not hurting W physically. It's hard to fully enjoy the experience when I'm holding myself back that much and worrying. This is a harder problem to solve than the first.

Now W has spent the past three nights in the guest bedroom. Says it is because of sleep issues. She doesn't seem to agree that sharing the bed is important for maintaining our emotional bond.

I don't see where you expressed gratitude or admiration to her for her initiative in meeting your emotional need. I would try to make sure that that message predominates! If she gets some negative each time she meets your needs (i.e., "Could be better...") she is likely to start feeling an aversion toward meeting your need. I am not saying that you should not be open and honest with her about your needs, but I am saying that you have some work to do before she will be receptive to that.

Frankly, I sometimes get the impression from your posts that you are more concerned about your emotional needs than hers. You need to be concerned about both your needs and hers, and you probably also need to realize that you are not likely to get your needs met consistently and with a high degree of satisfaction until you have been doing the same for her for quite some time.

Let me put it this way: if you had held off a bit, saving your complaints for perhaps a time when your wife is more onboard with this program and hearing them, she might have spent the next few nights with you. I imagine that would have been fun for you whether those nights involved SF or not, and whether they involved climax or not, and they would've made love bank deposits for her as well, and possibly even given her a chance to get more comfortable and even more skillful being intimate with you. They certainly would've been better than the last few nights.

Can you hold your complaints down to about once a week?

I didn't do myself justice in the previous post. I was very appreciative at the time. I mainly wanted W to know that the subdued nature of my response had been due to my medication response and concern not to hurt her.

I totally agree that my priority needs to be on meeting W's needs. I don't post as much about that because I feel like I understand much of what I need to do. Just need to keep working it. I am working specific plans every day for that purpose. I can pursue this goal largely through improving my own behavior and so I feel more confidence about it.

I post more about my distress having my own needs met because I have less understanding of how to proceed and therefore need more feedback. This seems much more outside of my control, and feels like more of a challenge for that reason.

Also, as I have noted, I'm battling some depression issues and I'm certain my mood disorder is showing in my posts. I have reached out for medical help with that.

I have an appointment for Monday to see my Dr about depression.

Good for you, CIGB. Take care of yourself.

UA Brushoff

I arrived home from work to find W playing solitaire with tv on. I made a salad and w put chicken in the oven. I left things alone till after we had eaten.

The I invited w to play cribbage with me. W said "after House is over."

I went and did the dishes then wandered off to bed. To my somewhat surprise, she noticed I didn't return to living room. "Aren't you going to watch House?"

I simply said I was going to bed (it is 7pm). I'll try again tomorrow.

To others who may be dealing with depression.

I have lived with many people close to me who were diagnosed with depression. My father, my wife, my daughter, even my dog. Each of them has denied being in depression and resisted seeking treatment (except the dog, she was very cooperative). I don't blame them. Denial is part of the disease. But you cannot rely on your own belief that you are not depressed!

When my DW, DD and dog were all depressed at the same time, I spent a lot of time wondering if I was somehow to blame. After all, I seemed to be the common factor. It was not a cheery household.

I resolved from these experiences not to fall into this trap. I resolved to seek medical help for depression at any sign that I might need it, or if those I trust advise me to do so. So I am doing so now without hesitation.

When you are depressed, those who love you will suffer too. If they ask you to seek help, they are doing so because they love you.

In my opinion the rule of protection also applies to depression. You will not suffer depression alone, and you owe it to those who love you not to share your "fine and pleasant misery" with them. After all, it is chiefly because they love you, that watching you suffer is so hard upon them.

Cam home from work...W playing solitaire. I cooked and served supper. W playing solitaire...I cleaned the kitchen. Then I sat and tried to make conversation about the tv show w was watching. Still playing solitaire so I went to bed early.

Got up this morning...W playing solitaire..I fixed and served breakfast. More solitaire. I left the room.

I don't want to go overly negative about the solitaire, but I am feeling very disrespected. If we converted half of the hours W plays solitaire to UA time we'd have 15 hours easily.

My next move. Ask W to schedule 15 hours this week. I won't be willing to "count" any time when a computer is use. Today we will go for a dog walk and out to a movie. Tomorrow another dog walk. Wednesday we have our first dance class. That's a pretty good start for a plan for the week. We can add some more activities to get to 15 hours.

W has not returned to our bed. I'm reluctant to raise the issue again soon. Doing so sets me up for more emotional pain. If I don't ask I feel lonely. If I ask, I feel lonely AND rejected.

Is removing myself from the situation when W is playing solitaire a LB?

I know that offering to engage in an activity that we can enjoy is a better solution, and I'm pushing myself to do that. But it is exhausting (and humiliating when she brushes me off). I am doing it some of the times, but I can't always summon the patience. The sound effects from the computer are becoming aversive to me.

I need to manage the swell of negative feelings I experience when W is playing solitaire and getting out of the room helps me avoid making demands or voicing judgments. But in a way it seems like a kind of silent DJ. I have been trying to return to the room an hour or so later, but if I can't get w to engage then I don't stay long.

Started on Welbutrin this morning. Hope it helps clear my fog (depression fog, not the other kind).

W and I agreed to see a relationship counselor together and have appointments for the first two sessions made for 11-14 and 11-21.

I wrote an email explaining that we are looking for someone to facilitate our better meeting each others needs and eliminating behaviors that make each other unhappy and sent it to three counselors. I explained that we want to develop a plan for accomplishing this. W approved my message before I sent it. We chose the counselor most supportive of those statements.

I have concerns that I don't feel emotionally safe voicing to W. I must struggle against my own tendency to avoid conflict by keeping discontent to myself, I am apprehensive that voicing my concerns will make W unhappy, I am fearful that expressing my point of view will trigger anger and that W will not see my point of view as valid. I suppose that makes me an "avoid trouble" liar. To get past this I need the assistance of a facilitator to create a situation where I feel safer opening up.

I think welbutrin will help, I took that route and it has helped.
I think the only way a relationship works is to be open and honest with each other and then putting a plan in place that gives each other a place to talk and be heard.
My husband and I used a log book for a while to state our feelings and to be heard without any AO of DJ........
You can't change the past issues but by understanding the outcome of all that has happened, you can stop the same things from happening........it takes understanding and caring about the other partners feelings.......

I am so glad the two of you are working together now.......
What do you have to lose, you have everything to gain out of your relationship and the caring that will be there, it is such a great feeling being that close to someone else that you can just be who you are and they will accept and understand what it is you need..........
you don't have to agree with everything but you do have to accept.

I have the desire and intention of open communication, but I will need help getting to feel safe enough to open up. I have an anxiety disorder. W has a history of AO. At some time I'll have to learn to take the perceived risks, but I am hoping the counselor will be able to help establish conditions for that to happen more easily.

As much as I hesitate to trigger AO. I am also apprehensive about causing W emotional pain with some of what I have to say. I will feel more free to open up if I know that W has the support of the counselor to help deal with her feelings. In the past, We get bogged down with me trying to comfort W about her self-blame and guilt trip to the extent that my initial message gets lost in trying to cope with her reactions.

I don't think there should be much that you should say that would cause your wife emotional pain. If you are truly being respectful, non-demanding, and not angry, you should not be causing her pain, unless you are revealing instances you've concealed in the past where you took actions that would cause her pain.

It sounds possible that you have been disrespectful without realizing it. She is really the best judge of this.


Wow, that just sounds like a conversation that would be difficult to have without telling your wife how to feel, which would be disrespectful and a turn-off to any woman.

First installment of dance class tonight.
I plan to surprise W with a wrist corsage.

Hope the dance class was good UA time!

W lit up at the dance class. Happiest face I've seen on her in long time.

I'm a terribe dancer. I'll learn. Doesn't matter.

W acted puzzled I got corsage. But she enjoyed when other women asked about it.

W still sleeping in spare bedroom. She did cuddle for a few minutes. Then left for other bed. I'm thinking maybe I'll just follow her to whichever bed she goes to. I'll do it in a nice way.

Began discussion with W about signing up at WMCA for sessions with a personal trainer to work with the two of us together. She was receptive to the idea, but may want to wait until after our dance class (puts us into January).

We would schedule 1 session/week with the trainer and plan one trip/week to the Y to work out together on our own.

I'm thinking it is harder to come up with 15 hours of activities every week if every week requires a unique schedule. Getting a few hours of activities on a regular weekly schedule could make that easier.

We eat nearly all our evening meals together, but typically in the living room with the TV on. Our dining table is covered in random clutter W has put there and I can't do much about it because it is nearly all her work stuff. I thought about putting it all in a box for her to sort, or not, at her convenience, but dismissed that idea as likely to come off as a DJ. W volunteered that she was going to clear the table two weeks ago but....

If the dining table was clear, I'd serve supper at the table and we'd have the opportunity for a half hour of UA time eating supper daily.

Idea: I'll put up a card table in the living room and put a recorded movie (Winged Migration) that has only music and nature photography on the TV to serve as "decor". I'll serve supper that way. If I put the table away when I clean up, it won't gather clutter.

Hmmm... On Friday I'll mention that I want to serve a nice Sunday supper on the dining table. That seems respectful enough. The other plan is an awful lot of energy to avoid complaining about the dining table. I need to overcome a lot of self-imposed anxiety that is keeping me from communicating much of anything.

Possible POJA discussion:

you: What would you think of my clearing off part of the dining room table so we can eat some dinners at the table?

her:??(this is imagining, she might say something unexpected) I really like the way we're doing it now (eating in front of TV)

you: I would enjoy eating some meals in the dining room, how would you feel about trying that a few times?

etc, etc. No love busters, no "you never pay attention to me", no "you have the table so cluttered".

Just one option (what we do at our house), as we do both, dining room table and eating in front of TV -- whoever makes the meal decides location. Might not work for you guys, that is our POJA.

We've talked about POJA. W agrees in principle.

But It seems hard to get it going in practice. I'll suggest an idea I think she may like or a few ideas. The discussion just seems to fade away. W doesn't suggest alternatives, doesn't really respond to my suggestions. I'm never quite sure what happened when the negotiation peters out.

Hello. First time poster. I have been stealth for many months on this site. Thanks to everyone for the great posts.

My wife and I have been friends / house mates for years. We have three kids (16, 13,10) and we are very busy with all their activities plus careers.

After following your situation, I felt the need to respnd. My wife and I have had challenges for many years now as we forgot about us. She has the opinion that kids first and us last or towards the bottom.

Welcome to Marriage Builders, ukfansx5. Why don't you start your own thread and let us know how we can help you?

I dont do well with conflict with her. SHe puts her "lawyer: hat on and I never get my message across. Anyway, I was out of town for work, I sent her an email explaining my feelings and wow. i felt better.

We went to 6 sessions with a marriage counselr and what I differnce. She needed to her from a thrid party that WE should be a priority. The counselor recommended that we read 5 Love languages (?). Amazing, never thought it would be so easy.

Went from no imitancy (holding hands, hugs, kisses) to almost dating again. It has been wonderful. So, between this group and counselor and book. Life is good.

Good luck to you.

I'm glad to hear that worked for you. You may run into some trouble down the road with Love Languages. Let us know if we can help you!

Perhaps she feels something you are saying is demanding or disrespectful. If you can get her involved in filling out the love busters questionairre, and letting you know each week instances where you've been demanding or disrespectful, that might give you valuable information. Then she could tell you in a safe way, after the fact.

Also, there's a good chance she's simply in withdrawal, perhaps even depressed, and lacks the creativity/energy/motivation to keep brainstorming. Don't demand that she offer suggestions. Just accept what she has to offer, and keep brainstorming, yourself. Carry around pencil and paper and write down ideas when they come to you.

(from my other topic)

Thanks ML,

I've read "When to Call it Quits." and given it a lot of thought. I am fairly new to MB and I don't believe that I have yet done all that I can do to be the best husband I can be. I am trying to follow the advice to "fix the relationship first".

W and I exchanged EN questionnaires and we were able to agree upon plans to meet other (especially w's) EN. We are deadlocked discussing SF.

Perhaps it would be best to table this issue until we have a few weeks (months? years?) into working the MB plan. But it is part of the EN questionnaire and it would be dishonest of me to deny that I am unhappy and dissatisfied.

I don't know how to offer brainstorming ideas on this topic. It isn't as though I could suggest that playing checkers might meet this need for me. I have suggested that we try some intimate touching sessions that do not include intercourse as a way to learn to please each other and become more relaxed with SF. W neither rejected nor encouraged the idea.

I once wrote a list of some alternative SF activities that I thought might be pleasing and gave it to W. The next day I saw the list on the floor with a shoe print on it. When W asks me what I would like her to do, I am afraid to answer, I've experienced so much rejection. I told w how I felt when I saw the list on the floor and she surprised me by saying "I still have the list." At first I felt encouraged that she had kept the letter, but then I thought, She's had that list a long time and not done anything with the information.

W hasn't offered any ideas about ways that she thinks she might like to try. She tells me that she feels guilty and inadequate for not meeting my EN. That discourages me from trying to discuss the topic.

Right now I am thinking that perhaps I need to give the topic of SF a rest for a few weeks or months. Give my efforts to meet her EN and eliminate LB some time to do some good.

CIGB,

Note all the times you are afraid to take action.

Are you afraid your wife will be mad? or sad? leave? Might help to specifically think of how to deal with the possible reactions.

I think the MB point of view would be accept the fear and talk about it anyhow. Being afraid has led you to a very unsatisfactory situation. Just make sure that when you express how you are feeling (radical honesty) that you do it lovingly, with no lovebusters.

I think it is important for your wife to know you are unsatisfied with SF situation, because if she is able to deny this to herself, she will go to that scheduled doctor's appointment in December, and not even mention the problem (because she will not see it as a problem). BTW, the reason I know this is that I am a health professional dealing with women's issues, and frequently have postmenopausal women tell me there is no more intimacy in their relationship, but that both partners are OK with that.

If your wife does not know the extent of your unhappiness, she could say exactly that. And it is very possible, sometimes requiring a bit of medical help, for women to be comfortable with intercourse after menopause. Of course, you don't want to force the issue of intercourse before the medical issues are dealt with; you don't want anything to be an unpleasant experience.

Have you thought of calling for coaching with Steve or Jennifer? Maybe that can help you get past the fear of being radically honest with your wife.

I would table it for maybe 15 minutes, but no more. It should stay on the front burner until it is resolved. Your marriage will never get better by ignoring the problems. And if you continue to ignore this, your love for your wife will just continue to erode until there is nothing left.

Why would you want to do that?

Emily gave you great advice. Start being honest about your feelings. It is unspoken issues like this that causes a lack of intimacy. Don't sacrifice your marriage on the alter of conflict avoidance. Stand up and fight for it..

Agree very much with getting counseling from the Harleys. I think Dr Jennifer Chalmers would be great for your wife. She can teach you to learn how to be radically honest too.

Thank you Emily and Melody,

I have been honest with W about my discontent. We exchanged EN questionnaires and I indicated that SF is my #1 EN and that I am profoundly unhappy the way things are. The question is how persistent I need to be in keeping the issue in focus. W certainly avoids giving the topic much attention.

I brought up that I wanted W to join me in counseling. The result of POJA negotiation is that we have two appointments for counseling in person locally. I used MB principles in an email to three candidate counselors and selected the one most supportive of the goals of meeting each others EN and eliminating behaviors that make each other unhappy.

I have spoken to W's doctor (who is also my primary care doctor). Explained that I am concerned W is depressed. Informed him about W's pain during intercourse and that she hasn't made love (successfully) with me in two years and I an unhappy. He took notes.

I am not afraid W will leave me (perhaps emotionally she already has).

W might get angry, but I think I can handle that as long as I believe myself that I have acted ethically, respectfully and with compassion.

I am afraid that pushing too hard will further her alienation and detachment.

I am afraid that complaining too frequently will aggravate her aversion.

I am also afraid that not complaining enough permits denial and avoidance behaviors.

I can put aside my fears. What I can't put aside is this: I don't know that persisting in raising the issue of my needs is compatible with restoring our emotional connection. As you have pointed out more than once Melody, I can't expect W to be willing or enthusiastic about SF until she feels emotionally connected and confidant she will have a pleasurable experience.

When ask about "tabling the issue of SF for now", it is with those two objectives in mind. The (extensive) effort I am making to meet W's EN will hopefully help restore our emotional bond but may need some time to rebuild my love bank balance. And W may need medical help or reassurance in order to be able to expect a pleasurable experience.

I know first hand that having my EN unmet is harmful to my ability to feel an emotional bond. In fact, I feel pretty messed up. It does make me want to behave selfishly in hopes of meeting my needs. That's all the more reason for me to want to choose a course of action that is likely to meet those needs.

I am seeing gradual signs of W coming around. At our first dance class lesson this week, W's face was the happiest I have seen it in months. W still isn't sleeping in our bed, but she is stopping in for a few minutes of cuddle time here and there. She procrastinated making a doctor appointment for a month, but eventually made the appointment for 60 days out. (I got my appointment with the same doctor in 3 days when I called to say I needed help with depression.)

I don't know if I'm seeing W making real adjustments at a very gradual pace, or if I'm seeing very effective passive aggression.

I'm thinking plan A through at least December, since W won't receive medical advice until then anyway. Doesn't plan A call for a temporary willingness to cope with having ones own EN unmet?

It does sound like you are making a good effort at plan A.

Sounds like you are pretty clear that she knows that SF is an issue.

I think you are right that you don't want to complain daily, but be sure she remains aware. What would you think about starting a Sunday afternoon tradition of planning your UA time for the week? You could discuss time for SF and what specific activities she might enjoy. And the other UA time will be building your emotional connection.

Good work talking to your doc!

If this is a traditional counselor you aren't going to avail much. When is your appointment? And what is his/her plan to restore the love in your marriage? Does he counsel you together or apart?

Are you doing the things necessary to create an emotional bond? It will not happen by accident. It will happen by plan and design. What it takes is 20+ hours per week of UA meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs. How does she feel about this? Does she understand and agree to the plan?

My concern is that you are doing alot of work that will avail you nothing if there is no plan for UA time. This program does not work with this step.

Are you also aware that traditional marriage counseling has an 84% failure rate? They don't have the slightest idea how to restore the romantic love in a marriage and don't even believe it is possible. Does the counselor you chose a) believe it can be restored, b) have a plan to do that and c) equipped to motivate a reluctant spouse? It is very risky to go to a traditional marriage counselor when you have a reluctant spouse and you only have ONE SHOT.

Thanks for your encouragement Emily and Melody,

After breakfast, W spent 2 hours with me cuddling and SF. (note to Markos. Yes I was appreciative). Good for W. Not quite satisfying for me physically. Very good for me emotionally.

W is "on board" with the goal of 15-20 hours/week of UA time. We still have some work to do to get there. As "empty-nesters" we currently spend 30-35 hours/week alone together. Our challenge is to upgrade the quality of the "undivided" and the "attention".

We've taken some good steps. Enrolled in dance class. Shared some recreational road trips. Upped the frequency of eating out, dog walks together, going to movies.

On Friday I told W that I'd like to serve the lemon chicken supper I plan to cook for Sunday on the dining table. Yesterday W cleared the pile of her work stuff from the table to make it available. With the dining table clear, we'll be able to make some of our meal times UA (we've been eating in front of TV). That will add 2 or more hours of UA per week. I introduced the idea of eating at the dining table 3 weeks ago. It can take a while to put the pieces together.

My next UA goal is to get some affection time every or most bedtimes. W is still sleeping in guest bed and that removes many opportunities to meet EN for affection and SF. I've brainstormed the following actions I might take.
a) Buy the new mattress W has been wanting. We put this off last month due to financial stress of DD auto accident. I sleep on new mattress every night. W sleeps with me if she wants to be on new mattress.
b) I follow W to whichever bed she goes to. Snuggle in even if the bed is too small (guest bed is a twin).
c) Bring issue up with our joint counselor.
d) Thoughtfully request that W go to our bed with me at bedtime. If she is restless after I go to sleep, or agree to "lights out", she can then move to other bed and I won't complain.

Did the best I could selecting a counselor that will be supportive of MB principles. Had to respect W's input in selecting a resource. We go together in 1 week. Will learn more at initial session.

Is it a resource for your marriage, though? That is my point. Most marriage counselors are destructive to marriages so respecting her decision might not be in the best interest of your marriage. What is the marriage counselors TRACK RECORD in restoring romantic love to the marriage? Does he/she even believe that is possible? MOST DO NOT. What is his/her OWN marital status? See, this is critical information because it is not a virtue to just go to marriage counseling if it is detrimental to your marriage.

If it is detrimental to your marriage, why would you agree to it?

The strategy of traditional marriage counselors is to get you to solve your own problems by using talk therapy because it is believed that the "answer is within you." Do you believe that all answers are "within you?" See, I do not believe that. Rather, I believe my best thinking screwed up my marriages. If I knew how to save a marriage, I wouldn't be here.

The harm in using marriage counselors is they often validate marriage wrecking strategies and beliefs. When that happens, it is much harder to overcome that teaching. For example, many MC's believe men are "controlling." What if the counselor decides you are "controlling" because you want to have an integrated, romantic relationship with your wife? What if she believes it is "healthy" to have independent lifestyles? What if she tells you and your wife that romantic love is unrealistic and impossible? <-----most MCs do believe this. How will you overcome the damage of such beliefs once they are told to your already reluctant wife?

Do you see what I mean? You have one shot to get her to engage your marriage and you are spending it on a profession with an 84% failure rate.

Honestly, you would be better off getting pedicures and just using the Marriage Builders books AT HOME. You can buy HNHN, Lovebusters and Five Steps to Romantic Love USED at amazon.com and listen to the free radio show and come out much better than going to marriage counseling.

Study after study shows how ineffective traditional marriage counseling really is. That is why Dr Harley set up this forum, so people could get free help for their own marriages that was truly effective. He even gives out free advice on his daily radio show. He discusses traditional marriage counseling here: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2313031#Post2313031

and here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb.cfm/3/20

Please don't just trust your marriage to any counselor. You are taking a huge chance on a profession that sports an 84% failure rate.

My DH and I always go to bed together. One of us doesn't always stay in bed after the other one is asleep, though.

He usually sleeps 8 - 10 hours a night and I am happy with 3 - 5.

Right now he's still traveling, so we are only together three nights a week. When he's home on my work nights he'll stay up until I'm ready for bed, and just sleep in after I get up for work. When he's home and we're both working I'll lay down with him until he's asleep and then get back up after he's asleep and work. We do POJA that - at first he would wake up, now he doesn't wake up when I get up nor when I come back to bed at my usual (late) 2 am bedtime.

Melody,
I'll bear your concerns in mind. Based upon my phone and email contact I don't see signs of those issues with this counsellor. But neither of us has met her. I'm am strong enough to change course if the initial interview does not go well I will ask the questions. You suggest such as belief in romantic love.

W and I discussed sleeping arrangements. We enthusiastically agreed
A new larger bed
B redecorate larger room for master bedroom
C dark lined drapes
D new ceiling fan
E in meantime w and I will go to bed together. She can move during the night if she wants
The purpose is to make our bedroom attractive and comfortable for w

Good deal! And I would ask her for her PLAN for restore the romantic love. The KEY to this is 20+ hours of UA time. If that doesn't happen, you won't get there.


Sounds great!

Melody,

I do want you to know that I give careful thought to what you say and appreciate that you are offering your help. Thank you.

I sent the following email to the counselor. (names and salutations omitted).

"I have two questions about your philosophy. Will you help us develop a plan for restoring and maintaining romantic love? What role does spending time giving each other undivided attention have is such a plan?"

W and I can and will work on the UA time whether that is part of therapist plan or not.

I find it is a little like running uphill in sand. Every step I take, I slip a little, but I am making some headway. Example: When I served supper at the dining table yesterday, W asked to move the chairs around so we could both face the television in the next room. When I said I preferred to pause the television she agreed.

W has said she is glad I am promoting UA time and she seems less depressed. I think it is going to take some time for the changes in our habits to catch up with changes in our attitudes.

"Accentuate the positive" ---Baloo

CIGB,


The important part is you are taking those steps! Good work. Coming up with the idea to pause the TV show was a great example of you offering an idea, her accepting it. Those little steps are getting you where you'd like to be (even if it seems a bit slow at times).

Keep up with the respectful requests and the effort to get those UA hours.

Thank you Emily,
Your words are kind and I find your posts encouraging.

CIGB, I'd say it sounds like you are thinking very soundly. I agree with the suggestion to seek help through the coaching center. Get the experts involved in your case!

As far as having your needs unmet, every marriage has the potential to go through situations where needs go unmet. Sickness, disability, etc. Marriage vows are "for better or for worse."

From what you are saying, it sounds like you are making great strides toward filling your account in your wife's love bank. Continuing on this course has the greatest potential for success in getting your needs met, because your wife's willingness is going to change when she feels differently about you. Don't sweep the problem under the rug, but don't apply pressure, either. "Should" is a disrespectful judgment and you need to take great care to keep it out of your vocabulary.

(Woohoo!)


As far as I can tell, you are doing great. She is expressing willingness to follow this plan, you sound like you are following it well. If you keep at this course, you will slowly but surely be making love bank deposits. Please look up the October 25 radio show and listen to Dr. Harley's description of what happens when a wife passes the romantic love threshold in her love bank. It will give you hope and tell you what you can expect.

I echo MelodyLane's concerns about the effectiveness of most marriage counselors, and the fact that you only have ONE SHOT here, so I suggest you go for the best.

I also echo the comments about UA time. That's the key, and it sounds like your wife is increasingly enthusiastic.

At the very least you can talk with Dr. Harley for free on his radio show.

This is good news, CIGB. You are doing well.


You are absolutely right. I am going to try to go find two good helpful posts on this for you to read.

#1:


This is the original, but it's embedded in a long post about a bunch of other stuff. I include it only because I tend to be a historian:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1659425#Post1659425

EL was relating something he had been told by Steve Harley in a phone coaching session.

#2:


Original:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=164877&Number=2556440#Post2556440

CIGB,

How are things going?
Did you get the new bed?
Was your wife's doctor visit helpful?
Has your improved UA time upped you love bank reserves?
I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you!