I got up Wednesday morning and found my wife up filling in the emotional needs questionnaire! She also downloaded His Needs Her Needs to her Kindle to bring along on our mini vacation.

We both had a great time Wednesday and Thursday. W stated that she was glad we had come. We shared a couple of chapters of the HNHN book in the car on the drive.

This morning she is playing solitaire again, and when she got out the Kindle, she was reading a novel. So fits and starts, but more good than bad.

I have decided not to push further about the solitaire. Hard to do more without it becoming nagging and DJ. I'd rather deal with my frustration on this topic than start throwing love busters around. I will express to W that any time she is playing solitaire is by my definition NOT undivided attention time and let her know that she does not have my agreement enthusiastic or otherwise. It will be her choice how to use that information. I have let her know how I feel about the solitaire, but I'm going to choose not to be a nag about it.

W has not yet made the medical appointment that we had agreed (at least she said she agreed) she needs. Each time I ask she says "Yes I need to do that, I will do it". It has been more two weeks.

We can't really do anything about meeting my EA for SF until we have ruled out the small chance she has a physiological problem that needs medical treatment. Her procrastination about making the appointment seems like avoidance of considering my feelings, so I am frustrated. Her words tell me that she wants to improve the sexual aspect of our relationship, but her actions keep telling me otherwise.

Meanwhile, I am focusing a lot of effort on expressing affection. My own need for affection is pretty high, so this comes easily to me. In my own EN inventory, I listed "cheerfulness" and "empathy" as entries in my top five even they aren't among the ten categories suggested.

I am eager to know what she wrote in the questionnaire, but want us both to get further into the book before we try to discuss it. I get frustrated seeing her reading fiction for entertainment because I would like her to participate more actively in MB work. More avoidance? I haven't peeked at her answers because I think it is her choice when to share them with me.

To be fair, maybe I shouldn't be in quite so much of a hurry if W needs to take her time with opening up and communicating. That is hard for me because I don't like the way things are now, and she says she doesn't either. As I see it, every day that goes by without meeting each others' needs is a day of suffering.

I am avoiding making MB work into demands. So I am trying to keep my impatience to myself, but I know it shows. My own temperament is to persist at problem solving efforts. A few minutes of constructive discussion every few days is a good thing, but I find myself unable to focus on anything else in the time between.

I have only seen W genuinely "horny" on one occasion in the 38+ years of our relationship. And I think there has only been two occasions in her entire life when she asked for sex and didn't get it. I don't think she has any understanding or empathy for my emotional need for sex. I'd like to see her try testosterone patches for a couple of weeks so that she might gain some insight into the "world" I live in. W's lack of empathy makes it very hard for me to talk to her about sex. It is like being a bird trying to explain to a mammal how it feels to have my feathers pulled.

She has no idea how messed up I feel from the thousands of times she has brushed me off or the tens of thousands of times I've been afraid to approach her out of the anticipation of being rejected. She also doesn't seem to understand how this unhappiness has impaired my ability to enjoy offering affection and companionship. I have always tried to resist the temptation to retaliate by with holding responding to her emotional needs, but I have to admit I have often sulked.

I am considering telling W how very tempted I am to seek out another partner for sex. (which I haven't done yet) W is the one woman on earth whom I know will not meet my emotional needs. Every other woman I encounter seems like a better prospect because I don't know what response I might get. If it is 1 in a thousand, that's a better chance than I have at home.

A few years ago, W told me that she would understand if I sought sexual satisfaction with someone else. "Just don't bring anything home I don't want." I have never believed that I could do so without harming her terribly. So I don't feel that I have the freedom to do so regardless of her apparent permission.

*edit*

For your own integrity, Plan B her first, then divorce her if Plan b doesn't snap her out of it. THEN you can go find another sex partner. You will do as much if not more harm to yourself if you act on this now.

"I will not stay in a sexless marriage" is a perfectly sensible thing to say to her. She'll think you're bluffing, of course, unless you go dark in plan b and file.

Just please don't commit adultery. It will hurt YOU and leave a wide path of destruction around you.

I'd love to negotiate a way for W to get a good night's sleep. I am willing to try anything. I simply can't think of any solutions to offer.

I am willing to let W have complete control of the room (lighting conditions, window open or closed, fan blowing or not, furniture, bed covers, thermostat, location of the dogs) and I'll be happier as long as we are together.

W reports that any disturbance, many I cannot control such as rolling over or getting up quietly to pee, will wake her for the rest of the night.

W has been asking for a new mattress (a fair request). I have been reluctant because the voice in my head is reminding me that I'm going to be miserable on any mattress (I haven't voiced that). Now I'm thinking, "Get the mattress and make sure I sleep on it every night." W may not want to stay in the spare bedroom with an old mattress.

W's sleep apnia (CPAP) mask is a problem. It is a physical barrier to affection and to me a psychological barrier as well. I would like W to inquire about medical alternatives. I am ashamed to admit that I have shared the observation that it is like trying to cuddle Darth Vader. (Darth Vader's mask is an accurate representation of a CPAP mask, even the sound effects).

Workable for me would be:
1) Begin the night in bed together with W not wearing the sleep apnia mask. Allow time for some affectionate cuddling. This time isn't over until we agree that it is or one falls asleep.
2) Once there has been some time for affection, W may do whatever she feels she needs to do for comfortable sleep. Put on the mask, move to the other room, hang upside down in the closet, what ever she wants.
3) On weekends, spend some time together for a cuddle in the morning.
4) I'll cope with waking up alone if that's how it works out. The rest of the plan will help meet my emotional need for affection and perhaps occasionally for sex.

I'm not preparing to commit adultery.

Note my words, "I have never believed that I could do so without harming her terribly. So I don't feel that I have the freedom to do so regardless of her apparent permission."

I was talking about perhaps needing to tell W that it is on my mind. Seems radical honesty demands that I do tell her.

Edited to protect personally identifiable information

Well, another 12 or so hours of solitaire this weekend. Arrgh!

My belief is W is depressed and the solitaire is an addiction. Well, I'm not going to get sucked into throwing around LB bombs over this. I have voiced my opinion to her. I cannot control this behavior. If I try for control, I lose the possibility of influence. I am going to focus on doing a better job of meeting W's needs. Hopefully as she gets happier, she may be easier to reach on this issue. Not good for me to sacrifice on this topic, but I hope to make it temporary.

W and I have made a date to discuss our EM inventories on Wednesday. She has filled her questionnaire out, but hasn't done any more reading in HNHN since we read some together in the car last week. I suggested that she read a bit more before Wednesday. Hoping she isn't too busy playing solitaire but didn't make that remark. (Getting hard to restrain myself from making DJ about it)

W is a sensitive, caring partner. My big fear in all this is that she is already doing the best she can to meet my EN.

I will love her always. And I respect and appreciate her. It breaks my heart to see her hurt. I am considering that we need counseling support because I can only be radically honest if I am assured that she will receive some support at those moments when my own expressions of love may not have enough comforting effect.

It is very difficult for me to be open about topics that may be painful to W. I'm tied up in knots from withholding information about my frustration and that's going to be a terribly hard habit to break. If I know that W will receive some help coping, that will make it a bit easier for me to speak freely.
CiGB?

Five days have passed and there has been no feedba k on my last couple of posts.

Is there a reason I'm not getting a response?
Did I do something wriong oroffensive?

The posters may be waiting to hear what YOU have done, CIGB. It appears that you've done nothing:

This addiction is eroding your marriage. Why are you allowing it? You have received splendid advice on how to get her back on track with your marriage (go back and read MelodyLane's and Markos' posts, specifically.) What have YOU done?

We can't help you if you're not going to help yourself. I, personally, would have expected her to be off the solitaire games entirely by now, IF YOU LISTENED TO THE ADVICE YOU WERE GIVEN.

Fair enough. Here is a summary of some of what I have done.
--Told her that the solitaire is upsetting me and creating a barrier between us.
-- Told her that sleeping separately is causing me to feel lonely and unhappy.
-- obtained her agreement to read the Mb books and purchased.Hnhn, lovebusters and the workbook
-- printed copies of the questionnaires and obtained her agreement to fill them and discuss them
-- Scheduled a mini vacation with time in the car to begin reading hnhn together and enjoy soe UA time
-- obtained her agreement to see a doctor
-- made a date for Saturday to discuss the emotional needs inventory.
-- filled and discussed the recreational interest inventory together

Today, I filled out the en questionnaire as I think she would answer the question. I found that by my own self assessment I I believe that I need to offer more domestic support. I will step up my helping with household chores pending getting an opportunity to read her en eval. She has filled the questionnaire but hasn't gotten further with the reading. She agreed to read the articles on poja and ua time which I will print. I wanted her to read those two topics before we discuss ou en survey answers.

What I find tough is that she is not cooperating but in a very cooperative way !

She has agreed to participate in a mb process. Even enthusiastically. But her procrastination and avoidance is sabotaging the effort. When she says "Yes I'll read it. Yes I'll fill it out. Yes I'll make an appointment. " there isn't much more for me to say at those moments.

Then when she doesn't do it. Or does only a small part, the question is how to keep things on track without nagging. How to express doubt about what she will do without DJ.

Part of my answer is to have patience. I am getting some response. It seems to me that I can better adress the solitaire issue once she has read poja. So it is worth waiting a few more days and making sure I put a copy of the poja article into her hands before I get firmer about solitaire.

I asked her how she felt about getting a new mattress and she was pleased. So I will make sure I get that done with her. It seems like the point about sleeping in the same bed should be part of the discussion she I share my answers on the en needs questionnaire. I will tell her then that my need for affection is not going to be met if she sleeps in other room. But she has to read about poja for it to matter when I tell her that.

I am trying to balance between being reasonable about respecting her pace a
While not allowing procrastination to torpedo my effort. I see danger both in pushing too hard and in not pushing enough. I am trying to achieve gentle persistance.

My gentle ways do make me an easy mark for her style of passive resistance.

Meanwhile I am also stepping up my expressions of affection. I've been giving w lots of random hugs and kisses. Making gestures like bringing her tea. Sending affectionate emails from work. She seems to like it but it doesn't seem to brighten her mood. I'm not sure any of the four "intimate" needs rank in her top five.

W has filled out the en questions, but I haven't peeked. Somehow it doesn't seem right to read it until she places it in my hands and invites me to read.
CIGB

"This addiction is eroding your marriage. Why are you allowing it? You have received splendid advice on how to get her back on track with your marriage (go back and read MelodyLane's and Markos' posts, specifically.) What have YOU done? "

I'm not a policeman or Ws parent. I cannot allow or disallow anything she chooses to do. It seems the POJA is really the best (perhaps only) tool I have to stop this behavior and then only if W chooses to treat my needs, feeling, opinion on the matter with care and respect.

I am not a disrespectful husband. And I cannot impose my judgement upon my wife. Even (especially) when I "know" I am right

This makes no sense. Why are you here, then, if you're not going to do anything to eliminate this danger to your M?

This all looks good on paper, but I've highlighted parts of your list to show you how little has actually been done. There's a lot of talking going on. Not so much action. While she continues to isolate herself from you by immersing herself in an electronic game.

Other than persuasion, how would you suggest that I "not allow" W to play solitaire without being abusive?

I did note the post suggesting plan-B. My problems developed over nearly 40 years. A few weeks more seems a small price to pay for even a small chance of getting a positive response before going nuclear.

A lot needs to build upon having W understand the POJA particularly as a foundation for negotiating about these issues. I have a "date" with W for tomorrow to read the POJA articles together and discuss them. Only then can I apply POJA by stating that I can not agree (enthusiastically or otherwise) to W continuing to play solitaire while neglecting my needs.
cigb

I never stopped sleeping in my bed. W moved to the other room. Plan to take her shopping for a new mattress she's been asking for this weekend. It will be interesting to see if she chooses to sleep on it! Another topic that needs to build upon discussing the POJA article first.

The mini-vacation was last week and we had a good time going to the touring show for the So You Think You Can Dance winners. W stated she was glad she had come. We read two chapters of HNHN in the car together.

We identified dance, viewing and participation as a recreational activity we would both enjoy. I asked W to select a dance class for us to enroll. She suggested one and I enthusiastically agreed. Next step is to ensure she makes the call to sign us up.

This is a bit of a medical footnote to my post that will follow. Feel free to skip this post if you are looking for my narrative. This is for those who will be inclined to ask me "what medications are you taking and why?"

I have chronic facial pain caused by damage to my trigeminal nerve. My doctor believes the nerve damage was caused by a past viral infection.

To manage this pain I take Carbatrol, Cymbalta and Oxymorphone.

Carbatrol is an anti-epileptic and is the mainstay of my pain control. I take 400mg of timed release carbatrol twice daily.

Cymbalta is an anti-depressant that was prescribed for additional pain control. It is uncertain that it is helping with the pain, so I am taking a reduced dosage to come off of this drug gradually and safely. Currently at 30mg 2x day. Next week am scheduled to reduce to 30mg 1x day for 30 days. Then discontinue.

Oxymorphone is a powerful opiod "pain killer". Over the past 6 months I have been taking a gradually reducing dosage to hopefully get off of this medication. I've come down from 120mg daily to 40-50mg daily. As this dosage is reduced I simply have to live with more pain.

All of these medications have some sedative effect. I pay a price in "foggyness" and lower energy level for the relief I get from pain. That is the main reason I am weaning myself from the meds.

W questions my further reduction in the pain medication, particularly the oxymorphone, because she believes that I am in too much pain already.

I don't have any prospect of relief through surgery. After 6 years of I have no expectation that the pain will ease over time.

I also use a topical testosterone supplement. This was prescribed because a side effect of the pain medication has been to cause me to have low testosterone levels.

Saturday W and I spent pretty much all day discussing our Emotional Needs inventories.

W indicated a need for more affection from me. She has noticed my increased attention to providing affection in recent weeks and this doesn't need to continue to be a problem area. I enjoy showing affection and I'm confidant I can continue to improve.

W had identified Domestic support as the emotional need that she needs to see the most improvement in my meeting her need. I suggested that the corrective plan begin with me spending an additional hour per day on housework with a focus on keeping the kitchen clean every day. I will continue to do a major share of meal preparation as I enjoy cooking. She found this plan constructive.

We are at a stalemate regarding my need for SF. W sees this as an important need and wants to meet it, but finds it too difficult. She didn't suggest any solutions.

W tells me that she feels terribly guilty about not meeting my sexual needs. This puts me in an awful double bind. How can I be so cruel as to tell her my needs are not being met when I know that thinking about the topic makes her feel so bad? If I do try to discuss it, all my energy winds up going into comforting W, and nothing happens to address my the problem from my point of view.

I am really messed up in my own head over the topic of SF. Instead of being a good thing, my desire for her is a cause for her anxiety and pain. It is hard to feel good about my own nature. In addition, I am so raw from being rejected thousands of times, that I cringe upon being asked what do I want.

W has moved to our bed with me. I know that she is trying to connect. She said to me. "If I try to make love to you and it goes badly, then you'll blame me and make it my fault."

I explained that I did not expect sex to commence immediately, that I know this is a process that will take some time. I also told her that when such an incident did occur three weeks ago, that I regarded it as an "awkward, uncomfortable, step in the right direction."

My own emotional state has fallen like a rock. I don't have a sense of hope that W has the determination to overcome her aversion and fears. She knows I'm badly discouraged.

So here's a question you may not have seen before:

For medical reasons explained in my previous post, I use a testosterone supplement. If I don't use the topical supplement, my own libido is greatly diminished. Emotionally I feel diminished as well.

I am thinking about proposing that I discontinue the testosterone supplement for a limited time, say 1 or two months. During that time, W may perceive less pressure to respond sexually. Hopefully during the same period, the plans we have made to better meet her emotional needs may begin to help us re-connect as a couple.

This may also provide a time for us to do some touching exorcises with less pressure on W to try to be pleasuring me. She could focus only on enjoying being touched and work on her expectations of pleasure.

I'm hesitant, because it doesn't seem wise to deliberately manipulate my own health for W's benefit. But this would be temporary. Is this too drastic?

Has your wife made the appointment with her doctor (as previously discussed) to discuss possible remedies for any physical (due to menopause) barriers to intercourse?

No she hasn't.
I explained yesterday that this made me question her intention to get it done. She promised to make the apt today.
She did seem to mean it.
I will remind her.

In the meantime, till her possible medical/ menopause issues with intercourse are resolved, can you find someway to POJA other sexual activities, such as the touching exercises, manual or oral stimulation? Would have to be POJA, enthusiastic agreement of course. Nothing that she would object to. You say,


I think using POJA, you would both suggest possible solutions. From "4 Guidelines for Successful Negotiation" on this site


I have heard other, more experienced advisors on this site suggest bringing up the issue for discussion once/week (so it doesn't dominate your UA time, yet it isn't forgotten), brainstorming, and being careful to avoid lovebusters during the discussion. And be sure to do other fun things during your UA time so you are falling in love again.

In a post a few back, you said you agreed on dance classes , but you said she would be calling to schedule. I wondered why you couldn't call and schedule, since one issue seems to be that she agrees to a certain course, but procrastinates about following through.

I don't think you should feel guilty about asking her to meet your needs as long as you POJA, if you let your giver take over and let that slide, it will be bad for your relationship in the long run. It is wonderful that she has agreed to come back to your marital bed!

The dance class sigh up is through her employer, so hard for me to provide the initiative. She did bring home the sign up form so we can fill it out tonight.

We had nice dog walks together Saturday and Sunday and have planned a long family weekend for this weekend (Thanksgiving in October for us so we can do it at "the cottage").

Very hard for me to get POJA going for SF. I worked very had this weekend at trying to do that. Cannot get W to put forth brainstorming ideas of her own.

W asked me to suggest ways I'd like her to pleasure me, but rules out what she already knows I like. Maybe ten years ago, I made a list of 10 or so activities I thought I might like and gave it to her. She seemed offencded and the next day I saw the list on the floor with tennis sho footprints on it. I brought this up to try to explain why it is so hard for me to answer her question.

W says she still has that letter! At first I thought that is good news. But I wonder, why keep the letter for ten years and never do anything with the suggestions? Why ask me now, if all she's done with the information is hide it in her diary? It feels like offering my ideas is just supplying additional ways for me to be rejected.

I love giving and SF orally. W loves receiving, but shows little willingness to give. She told me once that she gets no emotional satisfaction from giving pleasure. That bell is still ringing in my head!

Manual stimulation is nice as part of foreplay, but as a "main event" I'd rather pleasure myself in private without an indifferent audience.

There could be something else I'd like a lot, but I haven't discovered or imagined it. If she would suggest some things she'd like to try maybe we could find something.

I don't see how POJA will work as long as she regards leaving my emotional needs unmet as an acceptable outcome.

W asked me what my agenda is. I replied.
It should not be acceptable to either of us for the other's emotional needs to be unmet.
It should not be acceptable to either of us to behave in a manner that hurts the other. (love busters)
When we identify a case of unmet needs or hurtful behavior we should work together with DETERMINATION as a team to solve the problem.

What I see lacking in W's response is determination. She doesn't want to hurt me, but she is not determined to overcome the obstacles to meeting my needs.