For my part, i can't seem to manage the "abandon". I feel like I'm in a minefield. My suggestions my scare or offend W. And I feel like the best I can hope for is for W to be nice about how she rejects them.

I don't know how to negotiate this. I need support and I need help getting past the emotional pain that I know is impairing me from expressing myself openly.

Does your wife know (from you telling her specifically, not just you thinking, "she must know") that you feel this way? I think you need to share that with her, maybe after you make sure she understands the next paragraph here. If you don't share that info with her, it's like your bank not telling you your account is overdrawn. Sure you'll be upset with that info, but you need to know! (analogy credit to Melody Lane, I think)

Has she read the 4 principles of successful negotiation? Print that out for her. I think the short print outs are easier to get the reluctant spouse to read initially, rather than a whole intimidating book. Maybe if you can reassure her you intend to follow those (make it safe for her), she will be more willing to engage?

Melody Lane frequently quotes something like (hope I'm getting this right):

Women need 2 things to want to have sex,

1) being in love with partner (and I suspect she is not there right now- withdrawal, playing solitaire- but you are heading in the direction of making that happen, UA time and meeting her emotional needs ) and

2) the prospect of enjoyment (and that is the reason for the doctor visit, if she has significant genital changes from lack of estrogen, idea of penetration may scare the bejeesus out of her. But, I think you need to open your mind to the possiblity of sexual interaction with no penetration, at least in the initial stages of this process. A postmenopausal woman who has not had intercourse for years is unlikely to be able to comfortably have it without some medical intervention)

As a woman, I totally agree with those 2 needs.

I think if you feel you are at an impasse, email the radio show and talk to Dr Harley and Joyce, or schedule a phone appt with Dr. Steve Harley (his son). Sometimes issues are too complex to solve with books and the forum alone, and maybe you're there. I'd just hate to see you give up-- being in a wonderful marriage is worth all the trouble.

I'm cheering for you to hang in there! Don't let yourself be so nice and understanding that you eventually let loose with lovebusters. That would be the trouble with letting your giver be in charge totally.

I told her very directly AND I don't think she understands how hard it is for me to talk to her about SF.

I told her that I am hurting from the pattern of rejection and I told her that I feel "I don't have any room for error or mistakes in what I say to her".

I'm not all that much at risk letting loose a tide of AO. The angrier I get the more I shut down, so I won't regret speaking in anger. I do sulk, but it much easier to repair the damage from a sulk than an AO.

It just keeps getting harder to open up.

IMO - no, a silent sulk is harder for me to deal with. They both piss me off, but at least with an AO I have an idea of what my husband is thinking. The silent sulk is in itself a LB, I'm not sure how the Harley's classify it, but it's higher on my personal list than an AO.

Fair enough. I'll think on that. In my mind, by going silent I am protecting W from angry exaggerated words I might speak that are impossible to retract. I am recognizing that I am angry and irrational, so I am putting my potential for impulsive words in lock down mode. When I've regained some composure I discuss the incident if W wishes. Even though my angry words are not likely to go nuclear, if I am feeling tempted to make hurtful remarks, it is ethical for me to restrain myself from doing so.

I'll agree it isn't a good thing to do, but ensures that I won't do worse.

This doesn't happen often, maybe a couple times a year.

W has now shared bed three nights running. Seems to intend to continue.

I have been doing meals and mainaining kitchen.

W has praised and thanked me for starting this journey.

My mood plunge the past couple of days stems from hoping for too much from our first attempt at negotiation. The results are actually very good, and I need to be more patient. I know this, but I need a sense of "Help is coming."

So, did she make the appointment?

I chose not to ask. Fearful of being perceived as a nag.
I did send her an email yesterday with the phone number for making the appointment. As well as a couple of simple "thinking of you" emails.

I won't let this go, but I have to balance between persistence and being a pest.

Last night I asked W about her perceptions of my sulking. Does she see it as a problem. She doesn't see it as something that happens often and doesn't feel threatened when it occurs. In the past we've joked that she doesn't always notice when I'm sulking. Very frustrating to sulk and have no one notice!

If we apply the principle that the victim is the best judge of whether abuse is taking place, I find it reassuring that W does not seem overly concerned. Worth avoiding just the same. I'll try calmly explaining why I am upset next time if I can manage it.

The most usual trigger for my sulking is being told to "Shut Up". I feel anger every time that happens. I need to evaluate if I am engaging in some DJ that is the trigger for W to tell me to shut up. Next it happens, I'm going to think about my own immediate prior actions before I react.

This isn't an easy post for me to write. But I cannot call my posts honest if I don't disclose this. I am a former wayward husband.

Thirty years ago while W was pregnant with our DD (now 29) I had an affair with a co-worker for about three weeks. I was not discovered. I "fessed up". I was out of the house for about two months. I called W, received permission to come home, and did so. I had already broken contact with OW. I have had no contact for over 29 years now.

I make no excuse. I acknowledge that what I did hurt W terribly. It is the act that I am most ashamed of in my life history.

Since then, I have striven to be a good husband and a good father and I believe I have achieved some success at both.

I do not no how this context effects what I need to do in the present to work for a better marriage. The incident feels like deep past to me. I've grown and changed a lot since then. But I'd be foolish to think that the hurt is gone or forgotten. W has not made a habit of recriminating about the incident, seldom mentions it, and only then in reasonable discussion about her feelings and our history.

Those are the bare facts. I'll answer fair questions, and I'll read whatever feedback forum members feel I have coming regarding this for the lessons I may learn.

W turned in our enrollment for dance class, begins Nov 9th.

No dr appointment yet. I'm persisting on that issue.

Still lots of solitaire. W calls it an escape. No traction on this issue. W doesn't see a reason or benefit to change.

Main issue for me: I need better comm skill ( and courage ) to respectfully insist on accountability from W regarding issues where I am a "stake holder" in her behavior choices. I will persist, but I haven't responded assertively when I meet passive resistance. Or is it passive aggression?

I think we need some counseling or mediation because improving my negotiating skills is going to take time and won't come all at once. In the meantime I need the assistance holding my own in this process.

W is sleeping in our bed nightly now. This is good. But it is also harder for me than sleeping alone was. W seems kind of indifferent to affection ( I'm not attempting to initiate SF). Having her close but aloof is harder for me than sleeping apart. I am craving affection and I am craving SF. Not sleeping well.

Last night I had an out of control intense headache. I asked W to hold me. She spooned against my back for a while but something was lacking. Empathy? I can't explain why it wasn't meeting my need but it wasn't.

I confessed to Dd (29 yr old) about the affair from 30 yr ago. Since it is disclosed here, I felt it best that she hear it from me.

Turns out W told her about it four years ago. I told DD I would answer any questions she cared to ask. She had none. DD encouraged me to seek counseling with W.

I needed to discover that I can be honest with DD about my past mistakes and still have her love and respect. With that incident disclosed there is nothing I would fear for her to learn about me.

I am betting that if you and your wife spent enough time together, and she was affectionate and met your other needs, that you wouldn't care about the solitaire.

So instead of focusing on the solitaire, I would focus on the fact that she is moving toward meeting your needs. Dance class, sleeping in the same bed with you, engaging in some recreational activities with you -- that sounds huge!

Have you listened to the audio books, yet?

And since you had an affair, have you read Surviving an Affair?

Given what your wife has been through, I would not judge her for needing an escape.

Just made a date with W for dinner and a movie tonight. Tomorrow we are driving North for another mini-vacation together. We were scheduled to go today, but W was not feeling well yesterday and suggested I go ahead and she would come tomorrow in a separate car. I said I preferred to travel together and I would wait until she is ready to go.

Your right. If my emotional needs were being met, I could easily accept the solitaire. The reason it bothers me is that it seems to be a barrier to addressing other issues.

I have read HNHN, I'm 3/4 way through Love Busters, and have been reviewing the workbook. Since you suggest it, I'll get and read Surviving an Affair.

We were listening to HNHN together in the car on her Kindle on our mini-vacation but that's all she's read. If she had spent 1/4 of the time she has been playing solitaire since I obtained the books and she said she agreed to read them, reading the materials (sitting in the same chair holding the same computer in her lap) she would have read all of the materials by now. That is why it is upsetting to me, because when she is playing solitaire the opportunity is lost to be doing activities that could be building our relationship.

I have not been nagging about the solitaire for the very reason that I do see it as a side issue. I told her it is upsetting to me and I haven't spoken to her about the solitaire since.

The issue isn't how much time we are together, it is the quality of the attention we are giving each other. I would estimate that we are well over 30 hours per week in the same room together alone every week. But with the TV on and W playing solitaire, I wouldn't begin to call it UA time.

As for moving toward meeting my needs. Not so much! All of the behaviors you listed are great steps in the right direction, but they are steps I instigated out of a desire to better meet her needs. Even so I had to persist to draw her into them. Don't mis-understand, I am pleased and I am committed to making those activities enjoyable for both of us.

As I indicated, sleeping in the same bed is harder for me. It isn't (yet) meeting my emotional needs. I pushed that issue because I recognize that re-building the emotional connection needs to come first. I hope it will get easier.

When W and I discussed the emotional needs questionnaire I put forth meaningful practical proposals to better meet the needs that she identified for herself. I have been following through every day.

As far as my need for SF. W told me that she feels bad that she isn't meeting them and that she finds it difficult to do so. Nothing she said raised any hope. She hasn't yet made the doctor appointment that she agreed 4 weeks ago to make.

In POJA terms she might as well have said, "OK, we'll do nothing. I do feel bad about it, but YOU LOSE."
I won't withhold affection, or companionship, or conversation in retaliation or as a bargaining chip. So how do I negotiate?

I didn't and don't expect an immediate turn around in meeting my SF needs. But it is very hard to sustain this effort without some encouragement from W that it will eventually get better.

This afternoon, I handed her her cell phone and asked her to call her doctor. She said OK. Then she popped up from the chair where she'd been playing solitaire for 4 hours and started doing laundry chores.

I can't, and I shouldn't have to solve all of the problems on my own.

So, if you have the TV on and she's playing solitare, have you ever turned the TV off and asked her to do something with you?

Often.
But I can, and will, do better.

Perhaps you noticed that I began my last post describing plans for activities with W.

W is on the phone now making medical appointment!

Appointment is Dec 22.
That's an important step.
It's a good step.

Had a pretty good evening... on balance.

At supper, W took out her Kindle to read while we were sitting together waiting for a table. I said "I'm thinking of an animal!"
She took the hint and closed the book and talked with me. Over supper she got out her Droid phone and played with an app, but I was able to draw her back into conversation.

We skipped the movie because my head was hurting. Really it was.

When we got home I cleaned the kitchen and went to bed. W tried to tell me I didn't have to do the kitchen while I was hurting, but I said I am working on building a new habit and won't let it slide. W stayed up till past 1am playing solitaire with cartoons on the TV.

When W came to bed I asked where we stand on SF between now and her medical appointment in two months. *edit* She said she wanted to try to make love.

*edit*

The she had a coughing fit. I told her that perhaps it was best to leave it at that. I had experienced emotional satisfaction because she had enjoyed having me touch her.

This was very difficult for me to set aside my own frustration for the moment. But, I will continue to promote this kind of activity because I am hoping that it will help build her expectation of enjoyment. If there is less pressure from me, then hopefully she will be less defensive and fearful.

I seem do be doing many of the right things, but I'm not thinking very positive thoughts. I continue to be very discouraged. I think that my actions are on the right track, but my head is not.

Emotionally, I'm in deep water and I need W to throw me a lifeline.