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...I was a liar too but not nearly as devious as [my OM]....
Sunshine, as a FWH, I can tell you that this line of thinking isn't going to move you forward. You'd be best off dropping it.
Stick with me while I ask you 3 questions: --Did he lie to & deceive your husband? --Did you? --So then, from the standpoint of your marriage, who was worse: OM, or you?
Do you get it now?
I can blame my OW for a lot. Almost 3 years after my affair, I can still honestly say that she made the first moves, and that had she not, I don't know if I ever would've become interested in her, much less developed a relationship with her.
But that doesn't matter, because before my OW ever made a single move or untoward suggestion, I already had all the knowledge & tools I needed to honor my marriage vows, irrespective of anything my OW did or didn't say or do. But I chose not to. Just like you chose not to. I was too lazy to communicate my needs to my wife then, and too lazy to try harder to discern my wife's needs & meet them then (so that she in turn might've been more enthusiastic about me & my needs prior to the affair). And when OW started acting interested in me, to the point where I realized it, I could've put a stop to it. But I chose not to. You made the same wrong choice. You made it all by yourself, just like I did. You'd better fully own it.
Yes, your OM dishonored your marriage and may well have lied to & deceived you. So? Why would you be the least bit surprised at this? Look how little human regard he had for your husband -- a stranger to your OM, a man who'd probably never done your OM any wrong! Would a decent man do that to another man? So upon what evidence do you believe that your OM was a decent man? The complete body of evidence must be examined as a complete body -- you can't just crop out the evidence that doesn't fit the fantasy-picture that you wished to see, and expect to come to a sensible judgement based upon the rigged evidence that you choose to focus on ("but he was a great dad to his kids", or "he sure was nice to me [while he was looking forward to getting his fingers inside my thong]" ).
You've got to look at the whole picture, sunshine. Doing so will put OM in the proper light. There'll be nothing, then, to pine for, nothing to be wistful over, nothing worth missing.
The way you fix a broken marriage & make it better than it was pre-affair is to forget about the interloper & the dead-end question of whether he was worse than you; and instead, focus on your marriage. List & keep to your extraordinary precautions. Know & meet your husband's emotional needs, and make sure he knows yours so that he has a fair chance to meet them. Protect his feelings, be honest with him, care for him, and spend time with him.
If you do things right, you'll still feel like crap for a long time on account of what you've done to your spouse. Maybe forever. I still do. But I don't have to feel like crap for seeing my OW's conduct or character in a positive light, because I don't see it that way. And I won't have to feel like I didn't give my marriage my best following the affair, because I know that I don't waste time hashing over my relationship with OW anymore -- a relationship that never should've been anyway -- instead of properly focusing on my relationship with my wife.
Your relationship with your husband is where you need to put your focus from now on. Spending your brain's bandwidth on anything else is just wasted time.
You got questions? Ask me.
Me: FWH, 50 My BW: Trust_Will_Come, 52, tall, beautiful & heart of gold DD23, DS19 EA-then-PA Oct'08-Jan'09 Broke it off & confessed to BW (after OW's H found out) Jan.7 2009 Married 25 years & counting. Grateful for forgiveness. Working to be a better husband. "I wear the chain I forged in life... I made it link by link, and yard by yard" ~Jacob Marley's ghost, A Christmas Carol "Do it again & you're out on your [bum]." ~My BW, Jan.7 2009
Do you know why everyone is telling you that you are still in the fog? I know you sense that you are, but do you know why everyone is jumping up and down about this?
Go back and read your first post, read it carefully.
You explain you had the affair because your needs were not being met and in fact your H had cheated on you. Right?
Then you say OM was the sort of man you were looking for: kind, talked, supported his child, etc. right?
But, when D-day came, he turned on you and blame shifted. Doesn't sound quite so good does he? Of course he isn't. He cheated on his W, he helped you cheat on your H, and then he threw you under the bus or tried to. Now is that the sort of man you find attractive? Be honest with yourself.
Meanwhile the H the failed to meet your needs, cheated on you, has done what? He has tried, he has not thrown you under the bus, and he is asking for a second chance to build this marriage in a much better way. Now is that the sort of man you find attractive? Be honest with yourself.
The point people are sticking on is that no matter what your H did or did not do, you should have honored your vows and if you found the situation really bad, filed for divorce before seeking your H's replacement. You did not do that, thus you violated your OWN vows, your OWN boundaries, your OWN honor.
I understand that you were describing how you felt about OM then, but the question is why would OM warrent any consideration give the type of man he has proven to be? How does he compare favorably to your H in way or fashion, give his behavior? You need to address that? It is a problem within yourself and really is not about OM.
FS, now that much of the dust has settled resulting from the unfortunate impression your opening post gave, (In the future, remember less is often more. "I had an affair, my BH exposed and OM threw me under the bus, but sadly I retain affectionate feelings for him. Help!" would have been better than your "Ode to Poor ME!") I think I'll join in as a recovered BH.
Okay, all that said, let's get to the issue here. You were in need of satisfaction of certain (unknown) ENs and went outside your marriage to supply them. You have to find out what they were, because the fact that you are still having pleasant thoughts of OM likely means that they are still under-supplied. Maintaining a strict NC policy toward OM will simply mean you will not any longer receive them from him, but the need for them will remain.
What did you and OM do? What did you feel different with OM than with your BH? What did you feel before, and after, being with OM?
There are many possible answers from the obvious to the very obscure, and occasionally very dark. (Look at the stories of celebrity/politician cheaters, whose motivation often appears to cheat just to prove they're able to do so.) But you have to find what it was OM provided, and either source it more correctly from your BH, or, if necessary, engage in major work to rid yourself of "needs" that spring from inappropriate mental/emotional compulsions. (Think Hugh Grant picking up that LA hooker!)
Start with the EN Questionnaire on this site. You and your BH should complete them and review the results.
Foreversunshine, I am a WW. I wish I could say that I am a FWW but I have not earned that from my husband yet.
I completely understand how you feel. You need time. I was in a fog/withdrawl for 6 MONTHS after D-Day. This was because I was still "checking up" on the POSOM. He had changed his FB status from single to "in a relationship" only 6 weeks after I sent him the NC letter. Then he posted a picture of him and his girlfriend. So I, like you, felt kicked to the curb.
I took several steps that helped me out of the fog.
1. Do not have ANY contact with him (formal or informal). Do not check up on him. Keep in mind that it doesn't matter what he is doing because you've made the decision to meet your husband's emotional needs. I had to write a "goodbye" letter to my POSOM's sister and she was one of my very best friends but it is too risky for me to continue to be friends with her.
2. When you begin to ruminate, keep this image in your head: Ruminate means to "chew cud". The defintion of cud is: "Food regurgitated from the first stomach to the mouth of a ruminant and chewed again." Imagine yourself spitting the cud out instead of continually swallowing it and then bringing it up again.
3. Use MB as your AA. Do you have a close friend who you can talk with? Who can remind you that your fantasies are just that.....fantasies.
4. Make a list of what you love about your husband. Keep pictures of him and your child all over the place. When you feel like ruminating or contacting the OM, look at the pictures and realize what you have to "lose" versus thinking you'd be gaining anything by being with the OM.
5. Journal your thoughts when you begin ruminating by listing the following: a. The time of the thought b. What were you doing when you had the thought? c. What was the specific thought? d. How did this thought make you feel? e. What was the outcome of the thought? (crying, having the urge to contact him, etc.) f. Wait a few hours then come back to your paper and try to cognitively rework that thought. For example, I used to think that my POSOM was sober and happyily living with his new girlfriend already. When I went back, I reworked it by saying that "thoughts are just thoughts". I have no proof that he is sober or living with her. And so what if he is sober and living with her? Doesn't matter because I have the best husband in the world. See what I mean?
6. Read, read, and read........Keep reading posts, read books on affair recovery, read books on love addiction.........
Time is what you need. Stay strong. You will know when you are through the withdrawl. You will feel differently. One month is a very short time. Try my suggestions and remember you escaped the trap of the addiction and now have the chance to make things right. Hope this helps. I, too,came here looking for help. Read my original post so you'll know my situation. Let me know if I can help in any other way. CT
Me: WW41 Hubby: BH40...My Amazing forgiving man (CharpyTest) DD: 8 DS: 8 DD: 6 EA/PA: 3 years May 25, 2011 (Formal NC letter sent)
I am really starting to get it. Yesterday afternoon I was so depressed and considered having my thread removed. I thought to myself that I wasn't ready for this yet, that maybe I wasn't prepared to handle the constructive criticism I was getting.
I have never been to rehab but this must be what it is like. Marriage Builders rehab for addicts. Intervention can be hard on the one who receives it but also very necessary. I can see that now.
JL, NG, Gloveoil, Comedy- your posts are truly speaking to me. Words to help heal my soul. My DH just sent me a cute pic to cheer me up. He loves me so much. He is being that man that has all those qualities that i thought the OM had. But the difference is that he truly loves me and I am his world. He tells me that all the time.
Melody Lane- you are right. I showed up here very dirty. Thanks for the water hoses.
Thank you all so much. I am going to hang out here awhile and listen, read and learn.
Me: BW/WW 45 Him:WH/BH 42 DS: 13 "You are more than than the choices that you've made. You are more than the sum of your past mistakes. You are more than the problems you create. You've been remade."
I am really starting to get it. Yesterday afternoon I was so depressed and considered having my thread removed. I thought to myself that I wasn't ready for this yet, that maybe I wasn't prepared to handle the constructive criticism I was getting.
And you didn't do that. As I have always said, wild horses could not run off someone who is serious about recovery.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt
I am going to hang out here awhile and listen, read and learn.
Good. We want you here. We also want you to keep posting. Don't be afraid. All we are doing (when we are mean & tough) is pointing out your fallacy thinking and the lies you tell yourself. We want you to stop betraying yourself. Yes, you betrayed your husband, but more importantly, you betrayed yourself.
Be prepared to have an epiphany soon. In a few weeks. We've seen it time after time.
FS, I am right where you are. We are addicts, but we can recover. We can be givers instead of takers. We both have husbands who love us. We are both coming out of the fog. I am depressed too, but I have hope. Hope does not disappoint. Joy will come FS !! Let's hang in there together. We've been given the gift of a second chance. You can do it !
I am really starting to get it. Yesterday afternoon I was so depressed and considered having my thread removed. I thought to myself that I wasn't ready for this yet, that maybe I wasn't prepared to handle the constructive criticism I was getting.
And you didn't do that. As I have always said, wild horses could not run off someone who is serious about recovery.
No Mam, I didn't. I plan to stay and work this out. Maybe I tried to make it sound more understandable and logical(according to me)as to why I would do such a thing. Perhaps to make me seem better than I was. When in truth I feel pretty horrible about what I did. It is so hard to see myself for who i really am. I messed up really bad and God help me I don't want to ever do that again.
You guys have seen it all, aren't buying my crap and are holding me accountable. I appreciate that. You are one tough lady.
Me: BW/WW 45 Him:WH/BH 42 DS: 13 "You are more than than the choices that you've made. You are more than the sum of your past mistakes. You are more than the problems you create. You've been remade."
FS, I am right where you are. We are addicts, but we can recover. We can be givers instead of takers. We both have husbands who love us. We are both coming out of the fog. I am depressed too, but I have hope. Hope does not disappoint. Joy will come FS !! Let's hang in there together. We've been given the gift of a second chance. You can do it !
Hi Free! This is tough. I held my husband so tight last night and told him how much i love him. I am holding on for dear life. We can do it! I pray for a heart full of love and passion for my husband every day. It is working. Thank you for inspiring me. I will go read your posts. It helps to not feel so alone.
Me: BW/WW 45 Him:WH/BH 42 DS: 13 "You are more than than the choices that you've made. You are more than the sum of your past mistakes. You are more than the problems you create. You've been remade."
Try to read the BH threads to get an idea how your H really feels, not how you want or expect him to feel.
If there is anything you are holding back from him please tell him and get it over with.
God Bless Gamma
Also, is he posting here? What is his posting name?
I encouraged him and the OMW to come here. He had read alot here and loves it but has not posted anything. He does not know I am posting here.
I am proud of one thing and that is of total disclosure of everything just after exposure of the A. I have not held anything back. Nothing.
Me: BW/WW 45 Him:WH/BH 42 DS: 13 "You are more than than the choices that you've made. You are more than the sum of your past mistakes. You are more than the problems you create. You've been remade."
The Giver is the part of you that follows the rule: do whatever you can to make the other person happy and avoid anything that makes the other person unhappy, even if it makes you unhappy. It's the part of you that wants to make a difference in the lives of others, and it grows out of a basic instinct that we all share, a deep reservoir of love and concern for those around us.
But the Giver is only half of the story. The other half is the Taker. It's the part of you that follows the rule: do whatever you can to make yourself happy and avoid anything that makes yourself unhappy, even if it makes others unhappy. It's the part of you that wants the most out of life, and it grows out of your basic instinct for self-preservation.
The giver is all about love and concern and the taker is our selfish side...so how can the giver be bad, or the taker be good?
Everybody recognizes the "good" in the giver and how giving can enhance relationships, but here's how a "bad" giver can ruin your marriage if all your marital choices are made solely selflessly:
*your giver is not honest....he won't tell your spouse what you need because he more concerned about your spouse feels, whether your spouse gets his needs met, than protecting your interests or your feelings. If your spouse asks the giver if it's okay to do something....even something you don't want to do...the giver says okay.
*your giver is the one who creates resentment...all that dishonesty cloaked in care....leads to misunderstandings, mixed signals, missed opportunities. The giver thinks...my spouse should KNOW what I need....just like I know what he needs.
*your giver is your martyr....endless giving creates the ever suffering spouse. Givers are praised for their selflessness, but they become very unhappy until all that's left is to somehow enjoy the pain....and get what secondary gain that offers.
*givers avoid risk and change...no rocking the boat...who knows what could happen? Nope, givers like safety....even when that involves enduring discomfort.
*givers believe in unconditional love...because they don't ask for conditions. They just give.
*givers handle your tender emotions...fear, sadness, care, consideration. They also tend to be weepy and needy.
We all know how "bad" the taker can be....afterall he's the guy who makes selfish demands, angry outbursts and most of our other LBs. But how can the taker be "good"?
*your taker is the guy you need at the negotiation table....because your giver will NOT create harmony, fairness, honesty in the dealings. Without your taker, your giver will create an environment of sacrifice....leading to resentment, anger and loss of love.
*your taker is honest about what you need and gives your spouse the information to CHOOSE to show you he loves you in the way that you would like it. He doesn't require mind reading...he lays it on the table.
*your taker fights for what you need and doesn't let you sit home three weekends in a row...he makes sure you're part of the fun.
*your taker is not an enabler or codependent.
*your taker saves your marriage as often as your giver does by making sure that reciprocity exists.
*your taker is willing to take risks and make changes.
As an example, I'd like to put forward my own marriage and how my giver undermined the happiness in my marriage for years. I NEVER went into negotiations with my taker....so I never even got close to getting what I wanted. I always put my husband first. But I wasn't happy. I didn't like it.....and I BLAMED HIM for not giving me what I wanted even though I wasn't honest and he didn't know how to please me. There is no negotiation without the taker...the giver just says "fine", do what you want. I lived with resentment every time he did what he wanted. I punished him for it too. And I was not someone who he would want to spend time with in the future either because I was pretty much angry all the time.
Letting my taker out saved my marriage. Oh to be sure, I couldn't let my taker rant and rage....but once he wasn't in chains all the time, he was far less volatile. My taker is the one who found out that my husband was actually willing and pretty enthusiastice about negotiation. Instead of the old pattern...H wants to do something...I say yes...then treat him badly. The new pattern goes like this....H wants to do something, I tell him how I might feel enthusiastic about that...we come to an agreement about how we can both get what we need....and I treat him well...and we both have fun! He gets to enjoy his activities without guilt. I know that I won't be neglected because we have also made plans together.
I am going to hang out here awhile and listen, read and learn.
Good. We want you here. We also want you to keep posting. Don't be afraid. All we are doing (when we are mean & tough) is pointing out your fallacy thinking and the lies you tell yourself. We want you to stop betraying yourself. Yes, you betrayed your husband, but more importantly, you betrayed yourself.
Be prepared to have an epiphany soon. In a few weeks. We've seen it time after time.
Thank you Pepper. I know this is what I need. This is my support group. I have been such a liar. To myself, my BH and all the other people I have all convinced that I am such a sweetheart. I have been careless with my actions and my words. Waiting for that epiphany.
Me: BW/WW 45 Him:WH/BH 42 DS: 13 "You are more than than the choices that you've made. You are more than the sum of your past mistakes. You are more than the problems you create. You've been remade."
Thats okay. Its normal as a WW. Deep inside of most every WW is the guilt and shame of what they are doing. If that guilt and shame is not managed correctly it can sometimes overwhelm the betrayer when it surfaces. Betrayers turn to denial, justification and objectification to somehow assuage the horrible shame and guilt they are feeling. My wife somehow convinced herself a 3 time married, greaseball mechanic hitting on married women on Facebook was a "wonderful" reason to lose God, her husband, her family, friends, church, small group, job, etc. THe loser was "misunderstood" and her "Soul mate" *BARF*
You are not a bad person. You did a bad thing. Stay the course. Hang on through the withdrawal (similar to heroin or meth). Turn to God. Love and honor your husband.
BH: 46 FWW: 44 3 DD: 20,17,11 Married 24 years PA/EA: 5/08 DDay: 6/08 NC: 8/08 Previous EA 1998 confessed 8/08 In Recovery
One concern I have, and you need to be watchful for. You shared this place with OMW. If she comes here, this place isn't big enough for the both of ya. No Contact includes MB.
However, if that happens, please don't just disappear. Notify a mod, and ask them if they have any bright ideas for how you can continue to receive support, while not turning OMW away, and maintain NC at the same time. It's a tall order, but if anyone can do it, they can.
And, at the very least, they can let the rest of us know what happened.
A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner. ~ English proverb
