A person can very well behave in a certain way and at the same time feel guilty about it, without succeeding in stopping it. Especially if it is some kind of addictive behaviour (which affairs by the word of Dr. Harley often are).

Have you never done something like playing a computer game, while you knew in the back of your mind, that you should stop and do more important things? Of course having an affair is in another league, but the same mechanisms apply.

I wouldnt call it POJA if the wife was crying her eyes out.

I was referring to this statement:

But that if it made her uncomfortable we can go the Postnuptial route instead of the divorce route. After a lot of crying and arguing until three in the morning we came to an agreement that were going to go through with the divorce.

This does depend on Mitt being honest about the "we came to an agreement" phrase, but it doesn't change my opinion that this is a BAD plan.

It sows the seeds of impermanence in the relationship, and reeks of adolescent immaturity and indecisiveness.

Mitt, you've gone from "I'll divorce her", to "I'll reconcile with her", to "I'll phuque with her mind, and mess with her emotions!" You're better than that, amigo!

wow I never thought of it that way. The only reason I decided to go the divorce route was because my lawyer said it would be a lot easier. He said all he would have to do is refile and change the reason from irreconcilable differences to adultery. And that it would make it easier for me if we decided not to reconcile at a later date. But I think you're all right if were going to reconcile divorce is not the answer. I do not think that I have a bad lawyer he said it was the best idea because most people do not recover and that If I get the divorce done quick and easy it will save me a lot of trouble later. but I think you're right when you question the we In the decision I think I might have pressured my wife and she might've gotten the impression that this was a dealbreaker. and if she didn't do it i would just leave. (not that i would) She was very much against the divorce idea but said she would do it if it would make me happier.






as for telling people about the divorce especially our children the plan was not to. The plan was to divorce legally stay together and try and reconcile and if we did just get married again at a later date. but I can see how that Wouldn't work and could lead to resentment from my wife. and I do not want to send the wrong message to my kids. They have had a very hard time because of all this watching their mother acting the way she was I think really scared them. They don't like to be left alone with her now and they're always calling me asking me when I'm going to get home from work. That's one of the reasons why I think this vacation is a good idea it will give the kids a little breathing room and a chance To get away from all the craziness that's been our lives as of late. and someone asked a while back do the kids know yes they do know about the affair but not about the OC and that's the way we both want to keep it.






Yeah I think the whole midlife crisis thing was just a way for her to justify it to herself. I struggled for a very long time when I first found out with why but now I don't anymore because I know why because she wanted to she was selfish and she thought she wouldn't get caught. But despite all that I still do Love her very much and still want to reconcile. And as for guilt she herself said that the first few times they did it she did not feel guilty but after a little while the guilt started in and she says it consumed her. And I think I believe her from the e-mails I've read and all the information I've gathered it seems like guilt is the reason she ended the affair and she was the one To end it every time. And from what I can tell after the first affair ended she only started up again because POSFBF threatened to tell me if she didn't. So on my end reconciliation really comes down to if I can accept the fact that my wife nearly destroyed our entire family and put us through all this pain for just a bit of fun.



I think you're all right that divorce is not the answer especially if I don't have POJA with my wife on it. So I'm going to call my lawyer tomorrow and get a postNuptial done up for when we get back from our vacation. I've also been calling around looking for a place to get a polygraph done very hard to find somewhere in my province. Thanks for Listening to a sad man trying to figure out a sad situation your advice is very much appreciated. And To any fellow Canadians happy Thanksgiving

Oldmitt,

Cheaters can get crazy - I find it possible in her fogged mind during the A that she actually believed she was having a crisis - so she could feel a little better about not facing the truth: selfish, didn't want to get caught, etc.

As for the whole guilt thing, it seems that I may have been wrong. You know your wife, not us, so if you detect traces of guilt in their communication, you'd know it far better than anyone here.

I do think that exposure helps kill off the chance that a cheating spouse would continue an affair, although sometimes they are taken deeper underground to continue them. Hopefully the fact that your children and families know about it will keep her on the straight and narrow. Thats a result of shame, guilt, humiliation, etc. from knowing that everyone important in your life knows what you did.

If you decide to go to the post-nup route and not divorce, I highly recommend telling the wife soon. If I were you, I'd explain it as recognizing that the discussed plan wouldn't be helpful to a genuine attempt at reconciliation, HOWEVER, its not a guarantee that you will successfully reconcile. Having a divorce in the process of attempting to reconcile just seems like it would backfire and build resentment, like you said.

Have you two entered marital counseling. You mentioned earlier she is in individual counseling (which is good)

Let's hope NOT. Marriage counseling is destructive to marriages and IC is a distraction from resolving her marriage problems. He doesn't need that at this critical time in his marriage.

no we have not entered marriage counseling and were not going to. After reading what everyone had to say about it here and then doing a little research on my own I have come to the decision that it's not a good idea. And you're right I do need to tell her that I do not want a divorce and that we should do the postnuptial agreement instead i will talk with her in the morning.

That's a relief! A better plan for your marriage would be to spend that money on pedicures or a nice romantic weekend. And then buy Dr Harley's workbook for $11, Five Steps to Romantic Love, and follow the program in there. [or you can email his radio show and get it for free if he answers your question on air! I got most of my books free that way over the years. ]

Glad you are not getting the divorce. I would really hate to see that happen.

and that's the plan I very much want to follow the advice of this site and the marriage builders principles.And we already have our vacation booked we leave for Italy on Wednesday for a week. We already spoke with my wife's mother and she agreed to take the kids for the week so everything is pretty much set at this point all that's left to do is pack.

thanks for your encouragement MelodyLane.

C'monnnn, oldmittens!!

You CAN do this!!

You CAN DO THIS!!!

Thank you for the words of encouragement I think I can to.

Mitt, my friend, very glad to see you're back with the program.

Go on your trip, and reconnect as a married couple. There will be roller-coaster thrills in the months to come, but stay true to the program - UA, O&H, more UA, discover each other's key ENs and devise ways to satisfy them - and you have the chance for a full recovery.

We're here to help. Always.

Mitt, whats the current display of attitude towards her by family and friends? Everyone has a right to be angry, of course, but I'm curious if anyone has really gone off on her and continue to do so.

Since you're attempting to reconcile, there can be acts or words by family or friends bringing the cheating spouse down, to the point where its not constructive at all to the marriage. Cheaters can betray family also, so I get the anger. And sometimes words just come out when the blood is boiling. But if a Betrayed Spouse chooses to work it out, that negativity can hurt from family or friends. Have you experienced any thing like this from anyone?

I know I'm a little late to the discussion but thought I would add my take on the divorce vs. post-nuptial.

First, if there is any chance at R I think a divorce will almost kill it.

Second, I don't think the lawyer was trying to do anything other than give mitt the best LEGAL advice he could. A divorce now, gives mitt the grounds of A, and gives him the best settlement legally (quickest, financial, custody, etc.). If he waits and tries to R, he may lose the ability to D on grounds of the A. The post-nuptial will most likely give him the same (or better) outcome if she has another A, but not if R fails. In this case he would have to file on grounds of irreconcilable differences and wouldn't get the same settlement.

Mitt, I'm glad to hear that you're moving to the post nup and away from the divorce plan. I hear some hope and optimism in your posts as you're on the rollercoaster, that stuff will help keep you strong.

I still hope you are being cautious in dealing with the remorseful wife that Mrs. Oldmittens appears to be. She is already being transparent for electronic communication, which is great. But that only works for the accounts you know of, but I know you'll remain vigilant.

I was going to talk about VARs and a keylogger again, but I remembered that you mentioned it already. Of course, since your wife already knows about this site, she is probably already aware of tools used to bust cheating spouses.

I do think exposure to the family and friends in your case has helped kill any chance that your wife would continue the affair or start a new one, but cheating spouses must not be given the benefit of the doubt. You're doin good man, hang in there!

without a doubt the person most angry with my wife is my youngest daughter she barely speaks to her mother. and when she does it's never anything nice as a matter of fact it's starting to become a real problem. She refuses to listen to anything my wife tells her to do and will argue with Her mother about everything and anything and will only listen to me. My oldest daughter Is distant but not mean to her mother. I think that has more to do with my wife's actions after the Dday then it has to do with the affair itself. When I left the home after the day and I was moving On the divorce path I spoke with both of them about the affair and how it would affect them. And I told them that it changes nothing between us and that while their mother did a bad thing it does not change the fact that she is their mother and that they should love her and respect her.


as for everyone else in the family at first my family were 100% behind me but after my wife nearly had a nervous breakdown(The doctor call them severe anxiety attacks). and was hospitalized for a few days they pretty much turned on me. And sided with her and said that I was overreacting and said very hurtful things. My own mother said that the affair was my own fault and I should be grateful that my wife is willing to have me back. And at this point my parents and I don't really speak we have maybe spoken twice since my wife left the hospital. As for my sisters they have been very supportive of our attempt at reconciliation they did call me stubborn when I was going to divorce route but they did not say the kind of things that my parents said so we are still speaking. As for my wife's family all I can say is I wish my own family Behaved like them they have been nothing but supportive of me since they learned of the affair. and have told my wife repeatedly that she be lucky if I took her back and they were the only ones that did not blame me for my wife's Near nervous breakdown.






I have a key logger on her computer already and I tried to find a VAR but they do not sell Them at any store That I could find. so I had to order one online still another four days for delivery So I will have to put it in her car when we get back from our vacation. I also have the meeting with My lawyer when we get back. So we Start drawing up the paperwork on a postnuptial agreement.

Oldmitt,

I'm sorry to hear that your own family caused problems. That stuff about being stubborn, or its your fault and you would be lucky SHE takes you back - absolutely nuts! They fail to realize that you didnt cause her to go to the hospital for anxiety attacks, rather it was the exposure and blowing up of her fantasy world that caused it. She didn't get her way anymore, and it upset her. Throw in the harsh reality of destroying her family and boom - panic attack.

The benefit of truth - your wife can't blameshift on you or try to justify it to her family or yours. Doesn't sound like she is doing it now, anyway. I'm glad to hear that your in-laws are supprting you.

Hopefully your children will see and be influenced from your decision to take your wife back and work on rebuilding. And hopefully her IC will help in her behavior around the children, from the issues she has had after DDay. How did she take the news that you are not going to follow through on the divorce plan? I imagine she was quite happy and thankful in order to follow through on a healthy plan for recovery.

My wife says and I agree that her panic attack (and it was a bad one) was because I left and would not speak to her. (The affair itself had ended six months before I found out). And she was afraid that i would Divorce her and never speak to her again. she says that after She left the hospital she started to think and she came to the realization that she can't act this way and that all she can do is offer to spend the rest of her life trying to make it up to me and let me decide. I spoke to her and pretty much quoted you verbatim about the panic attack being because of her "fantasy world" getting blown up and she says That might have something to do with it but that the thought of not spending the rest of her life with me is what terrified her the most. As for the kids there's not much I can do other than tell them that while the mother did a bad thing She is still a good person deserving of love and that whatever happens between me and her she's the only mothIer they will ever have and they should love her anyway. when i told her that I think we should go for PN (Post nuptial) instead of the divorce She took my hand and very seriously said "you will not regret this I'm going to dedicate the rest of my life to giving you Happiness and pleasure to making sure you know How much i love you and how sorry I am for betraying you"


DizzleTelevizzle You seemed to have some insight into all of this if you don't mind me asking are you a BS and if so did you reconcile.





my wife and I leave tomorrow morning for Italy for a week. We plan on using this time to try and reconnect and to see if we still have spark in her marriage. I am very much looking forward to the trip but am a bit nervous as we plan on having sex and we have not done that since before D-Day. I very much want to start having sex again but I haven't found my wife very attractive since i discovered the affair. is it normal to not find your wife attractive after discovery and if so should I just pushed to the back of my mind and fake it till I make it? My wife had her first session with IC And the counselor told her that we should start having sex as soon as possible that it's very important for our relationship That we create as much intimacy as possible.

No, I'm not a BS.

Short version: I found MB after trying to help my best friend going through extremely bad marital problems. I felt that MB had the best chance for him to work on things, I checked out the boards, but he wouldn't try. Can't lead a horse to water.

I stuck around. My entire life has been surrounded by imploding marriages for all sorts of reasons, so MB taught me in hindsight lots of things.

Your story is eerily similar to a very good friend of mine who had this happen. I saw lots of mistakes in that whole ordeal, thought I could help.

I caution you on the trip: UA is good, its one of the best principles of MB. However, don't have too many expectations for this one week. Its a beginning - there is still much work to do. Maintain UA. And the sex thing, I assume you got STD tests back all clear?

The attraction issue- thats understandable. I'd say fake it til ya make it - but try to be as natural as you can. Planning sex can sound very routine and boring, and I know you didn't mean it the way I'm saying it. But it can be a slippery slope, so try to approach it as naturally as you can, and view it as the ultimate opportunity to begin reconnecting.

Unfortunately, life awaits you when you return. I imagin that the OM will attempt to contact her again. Its possible and likely that they atleast discussed the possibility that the OC is his child. She may say she didn't, but those two were in an affair for two years, its extremely unlikely didnt atleast bring it up. Now that he has nothing to lose, he may try to play that card of "it could be mine!".

It really sounds like she is trying to turn things around. If you need references to what a remorseful cheating spouse sounds and ACTS like, check out threads by MikeStillSmiling, WulffpackGirl, or CelticVoyager. Mrs. Oldmittens needs to show through actions, not words.

And one thing I've seen first hand (unfortunately) never underestimate what a cheater is capable of - be wary that SHE may restart contact.