I have been lurking on these boards for a while but have not been able to work up the courage to post I am a BH this past July while going through my wife's phone looking for a app that I liked and wanted to put on my phone I found text messages between my wife and my best friend that were very sexually charged I confronted her and she denied anything and said they were just joking and they were nothing serious I of course did not believe her and kept on her but she would not budge so after a long fight I left the house and went to see my best friend.


Pretending that my wife had confessed everything I confronted him to see if I could get him to admit something and it worked he admitted that they had been having sex for the past two years about 30 times over the two years plus God knows how many times they just fooled around I asked him what they did and he said pretty much everything you could think I can't tell you how much it hurt the next thing I knew I was pounding my fist into his face and it only stopped when his roommate came in and hauled me off him he had to be rushed to the emergency room I left armed with this new information back home to confront my wife when I told her what it happened she broke down and admitted everything saying that it meant nothing.I asked her how could she do this to me and she said that she never meant to hurt me that it was supposed to just be some fun and that I was never to find out that it changes nothing between us that I'm still the love of her life and she still wants to be with me I did not take this well I screamed and cursed her out called her every name in the book packed a overnight bag and left for three weeks.



For the first week I did not speak to anyone my wife my family everyone was looking for me the police were even involved when I finally spoke to my mother about 12 days after I left I could not even get the words out to tell her what had been happening I sat there on the phone In silence for 15 min. when I finally said my wife has been sleeping with BF for two years my mom was stunned she was very close with my wife she then asked me what am I going to do I told her I'm not sure in the long run but I do know I cannot stay with my wife she said she understands that please be sure that I think of my daughter's first before I do anything else and that's when it hit me my youngest daughter is under two years old and there's a chance she might not be mine.




Armed with that new way of thinking I drove back went to my daughter's preschool grabbed a sample for a DNA test and left again I went and mailed off for DNA testing they said it would take 4 to 8 weeks so after all that I decided I needed to go home but I just could not so after 20 days at a hotel I drove to my mother's and was stunned by the support I received from my family everyone was shocked that she could do this we are a very close family dinners at each other's house every week her family were also stunned I spoke to her mother on the phone at my parents house she kept saying how sorry she was and that she so ashamed of her daughter also the mother of my former BF was calling the house every day she and my mother have been best friends for over 40 years she kept saying how sorry she was but that if I just sit down with him and he could explain everything would be okay I had to laugh at her when she said this so after about a week staying with my parents I thought I should finally talk to my wife she had been calling the house every day trying to speak to me showed up there multiple times and was turned away by my parents I have not seen my daughters in over 3 weeks and at this point I was missing them terribly.



so I walk through the door and my wife tries to hug me and starts crying saying she's so sorry and that she loves me and please forgive her and she knows this is all her fault. I tell her I have nothing to say to her and I'm only here to see my dear daughter's she says please try to understand how sorry she is and that she will do anything to make me understand that I ignore her and go and see my daughters we watch a movie together I try to keep things light they are asking where I've been I tell them that their mother and I have been going to some personal things and that for them not to worry and I will not do anything to hurt them. Once the movie is over and the girls go out with her friends for the evening I finally have to talk with my wife.




I tell her that I sent our youngest daughter's DNA off to get tested to see if I am the father and tell her that if I'm not I will not be part of my youngest daughter's life this very much upsets her she starts screaming at me that I can't walk out on the daughter's life and that is not her fault and that this was all just a mistake and that we have to get past this that were soulmates and that we are meant to be together forever I tell her I don't want to speak to her until the test results come back she says fine she's 100% sure that our daughter is nine so I go and stay with my parents until the test results come back the test results come back on August 15 and that is when my world is totally destroyed it says that I am not the father. I am heartbroken but now I know what I have to do I immediately get on the phone with my lawyer and move the divorce proceedings forward I have decided that she can have the house and all that I want is half the money and my car and a 50-50 custody schedule the day after the test results come back I had to go and tell my wife the news that we would be getting a divorce.



when I go to the house she is there holding our youngest I am about to tell her when she hands me the child I try not to take the child but the second she's in my arms I know I cannot be without her and that no matter what she is my daughter and I am not ashamed to say I broke down into tears after some time with my daughter I finally tell my wife that I cannot forgive her and that we must get a divorce that I will never be able to move past what she's done and it is the worst kind of betrayal that one human being can do to another she starts crying and begging for me not to leave her that she is so sorry and it just got out of hand I could not stand to be there could not stand to look at her so I left and I have not been back to the house since.



Now every day I have to deal with her lunacy the fact that she cannot accept that we are getting a divorce the fact that she phones me 50 times a day texts hundreds of times a day shows up at my work every day trying to talk to me. friends tell me that she spends all her days just crying has had to take a leave from work and maybe having a nervous breakdown while I feel bad for her I still cannot stand the thought of spending the rest my life with her I mean how could I she betrays me in the most cruel way imaginable and all for what for what she calls "just a bit of harmless fun" it's not so harmless now.


so this brings me to the point of why I'm here I just want to know how can I get her to accept that it's over I mean I don't want her to suffer I just want her to move on that's what I'm trying to do how do I get her to see that this is what's best for both of us And that a messy divorce helps no one and hurts everyone???

First of all oldm I am very sorry to see that you have gone through such a terrible experience, but there is a lot of great advice here.

To assist everyone could you please dot point and date the times for the above events you describe. The reason for this is that it is much easier to see what happened when and in what order so as to give good advice.
Just refer to your first post for each event details at the beginning of the dot points and as for dates just say this was early Jan or Feb etc or a day later whatever, no need for exact day. Its to give some context to the events.

Also to be upfront I am an XWW so I know its sometimes uncomfortable for a BH to have an XWW post so if its an issue just let me know and I'll bow out no promblems at all. Its about helping you not me so I really do understand that

Again so sorry to see you here.

So sorry you are here. You have found a wonderful resource in MarriageBuilders. Some really knowledgeable folks will be on to help you soon.

You have every right, every reason to divorce your wife. She has put you through what many people would agree is the absolutely worst, most painful experience of your life. However, considering that you have children and your wife appears to be remorseful, please think about holding off for about six months on making any major life decisions, and give yourself some time to work through this.

You have your family's support which is great. Do your children know of their mother's adultery? They need to know the source of the tension in their family. MarriageBuilders strongly endorses telling the children in an age-appropriate manner.

A divorce would be terribly painful to the children, even with a 50/50 custody arrangement, although you are completely justified in your decision. After all, the adulterers should have considered this. I have never heard of anyone in the throes of adultery thinking with any kind of logic, so somehow this never occurs to them. Waywards are in the fog and don't think clearly.

Does the OM's wife know? If not, please tell her immediately. She has a right to know what's going on in her marriage.

Reconciliation IS possible, although it is difficult and follows a very narrow path. Divorce is going to have its own pain.

Before proceeding with formal divorce, consider these steps:

1.) Your wife should undergo a polygraph test.
2.) Your wife must agree to No Contact for life and write her OM a letter to that effect. There are samples of NC letters on this website.)
3.) Your wife must agree to complete transparency with you in an integrated lifestyle with you. All email and phone passwords shared, time & money accounted for.
4.) Your wife must agree to building a romantic marriage with you.

No one here will fault you for divorcing! But a recovered marriage is possible and can be very rewarding. Your children would be raised with you and your wife in the same home.

so to summarize

02/07/11 find out about affair completely devastated.

same day confront former best friend get all the details.

same-day confirmed details with wife she confesses I do not take it well

02/07/11-14/07/11 I leave stay at a hotel I do not speak to anyone.

14/07/11 I finally speak to my mother and tell her all that has happened

20/07/11 I leave the hotel and go and stay with my mother and father

22/07/11 finally have to talk with my wife and she tells me every detail I asked and I tell her I'm getting a DNA test for our daughter

23/07/11 I move out of the house and go and stay at a hotel until I can find an apartment

23/07/11-16/08/11 nonstop calls from my wife showing up at my work constantly texting me talking to every person she can find to try and convince me to come home.

28/07/11 I meet with a lawyer get the paperwork filed tell him to wait until the test results come back

15/08/11 DNA test results come back test excludes me as the father I call my lawyer and file for divorce

16/08/11 I hold my baby for the first time in almost a month and realize I cannot be without her and I'm her father no matter what

16/08/11 I tell my wife I filed for divorce and she will be served in a few days

17/08/11 I tell my daughters that I will be divorcing their mother and that I will not be coming home

24/08/11 wife is served with divorce papers I think the divorce is fair she gets the house and everything in it I get my car and 50% of our savings and pension

26/08/11-To present The real lunacy begins wife start showing up at my work every day I have told security not to let her in so she stands outside sometimes for hours starts showing up at my hotel trying to seduce me and starts to scream at me when I won't sleep with her

28/08/11 wife loses her job

02/09/11 I find an apartment and move in

03/09/11 work out an arrangement with my wife's mother she will pick up the kids and drop them off at my apartment we have all agreed that what my wife should not know where I live

05/09/11 wife finds out where I live breaks in I come home she tries to force herself on me she gets violent when I say no I have to call her parents to come and get her

So this is pretty much where I am at this point I'm starting to lose my mind and I know she's beginning to lose hers have such sadness for her but I just can't be with her

Sounds like your wife needs to see a doctor. Truly, many people have to seek help and go on AD meds for a while to maintain a bit of sanity and level-headedness. Doesn't have to be forever, just for a time. You might also consider it for yourself.

I am concerned, too, for the children in her care. Your wife sounds completely distraught. Would any family members consider staying with her and the children for a few days?

OM. I'd like to take you at your word when you say:

I just want to know how can I get her to accept that it's over

You cannot mandate that she emotionally/psychologically accept her new reality as a soon-to-be-divorced, proven adulteress. What you can do is shield yourself from her actions which, believe it or not, are directed to loading guilt on you for actions she took.

That would be easy to accomplish. You have your lawyer draft a letter to her (and her lawyer?), stating that any and all communication is to be lawyer-to-lawyer, and as soon as she violates that (and she will), you get a court restraining order forbidding her to contact you, punishable in the violation by a contempt citation.

her mother has been staying with her pretty much since Dday but she has to work so she can watch her 24/7 we have tried to get her to see a doctor but unless she starts to hurt herself we can't force her and I have my worries about the kids as well but from what I have been told the only time she is even close to normal is when the kids are there and they love their mom and she loves them I may not want to be with her anymore but I would never take the kids from her

A#1. You collected the DNA from a preschool? I might have this redone. Either way, the parentage is not this childs fault, and any rejection she (the girl) senses from you (they are very perceptive) will not be a good thing for her. Please consider that.

B. You have every right to divorce. There are many sites that will help you with that. ...but
You came to MB. I am hoping that that may indicate that you are still thinking about married life.

July, Aug. Sept. ..not a very long time. You are traumatized, three months is not really that long to make these kind of descisions. You may, (I mean we have many BS who have forgiven and worked out their marriage problems) after some time to reflect and recollect your thoughts, want to try recovery.

I am so sorry that you are here. I am sorry that you are going through this. I am sorry that your children are in the middle.

There is a way out of this marriage, there is a way to recovery. Only you can decide if/when/how that is going to happen.

I'm sorry I should've clarified I got a kit and went and took my dear daughter from preschool and got the swap you need to take to send off and get tested

and as for reconciliation and why I'm on this site as you can see under my name I registered here long before I found out about the affair I originally came on this site because my wife and I were arguing about where to take a vacation I'm not used to arguing with my wife as we never really argued very much and I would always lose so I came here hoping to learn some skills on how to deal with my wife better.I never thought I would need the site for something like this so I thought I would post my story because I can't be the first guy who's wife cheated on him and he does not want to stay I was hoping to hear from any BS on how to deal with your life after divorce and adultery and also I was kind of hoping to hear from any WW's who want their spouses to forgive them but they wouldn't/won't

I love that part about her trying to guilt me but I really do not want to go and get a restraining order against her it would hurt the kids and I do not want to do that and I do not want to control her emotions I just want her to come to the practical realization that we can't fix this but to be honest at the same time I wish we could

Take a look at this thread posted in the Recovery forum by wulffpack_girl. It's illuminating. She's one of the reasons I could find my way to accepting my FWH's remorse and take the road to recovery. Her husband was devastated by her adultery but began to find his way to recovery. She made a huge mistake in trickle-truthing him for the next several months and that further devastated him. He has since moved out and they are not in recovery. She is incredibly remorseful.

How do I Help my HB?

I don't read much in the Divorced Forum, but there is one here on MB in the General Forums area.

Some very helpful threads have been recently posted from betrayed husbands in the SAA forum. Some have very remorseful wives, while others are still in the fog.

Some betrayed husbands in recovering marriages post in the Recovery forum.

OM, if your goal is to convince her that the marriage is over, a restraining order is probably a good first step.

Other than that, it will take time.

Your 2yo dd is still legally your child even if you have DNA evidence that you are not the bio father. You need to do whatever it takes to get 50/50 custody of her because your wife sounds mentally unstable.

thanks I will take a look at it

as far as the restraining order goes I'm not going to get one and that's my final decision can't see my feelings on that changing

And on the custody matter I'm not really worried she has in no way responded to my filing for divorce legally that is if I wanted to take everything we own I don't think I'd have much trouble from a legal standpoint because she is refusing to even acknowledge the fact that we are getting divorced

OM, glad you are here to get broader help with this. To the wonderful posters helping OM he has tried but cannot seem to get past the double betrayal of his WW and BFF having an A. Add the cherry on top of him not being the biological father of his youngest DD and you have a very, very hurt man with (my opinion) an unremorseful and selfish WW.

And on the custody matter I'm not really worried she has in no way responded to my filing for divorce legally that is if I wanted to take everything we own I don't think I'd have much trouble from a legal standpoint because she is refusing to even acknowledge the fact that we are getting divorced.

You, Sir, have a lot to learn about divorce.

Why, at this point, do you care about how she "accepts" your descision to divorce?
What do you want her to DO?

Are you afraid that she is somehow going to harm the children? Is she going to harm herself? Does she have other/family support? (not for the A, but for the divorce)


more importantly..
What advice do you think we can give you about controlling your WW thougts / behaviors?
She will get the idea soon enough.

Good Luck to you. There is a lot of good advice here.

oldmittens, this site is not only for those who want to save their marriages. We have a whole divorce section, after all. Some people do decide to divorce and there is nothing wrong with that. You are just as welcome as anyone else.

So sorry you find yourself in this nightmare.

you say the site has a divorce action do I have to delete this post to post in that section

I want her to accept that it's over and get on with her life and be happy I don't want to hurt her I just want to move on I don't see how this makes me a bad person.


And no I'm not afraid that she will hurt the children I'm afraid she will hurt herself and yes her mother has been staying with her since D-Day.


as far as advice goes I was hoping I could get some advice on how To handle this whole situation I want advice on how to make sure me and my daughters come out of this with as little pain as possible and yes my wife to despite all this I do still love her very much and want nothing but the best life for her it's just I can't see how I can move past this I can't understand how she could do this I'm just so very confused

If you want to move your thread to the divorce board you can or you can leave it here. If you want to move it just hit notify and ask a moderator to move it for you.

I guess I should ask should I move it I mean I get the feeling that I'm not very much Liked here this seems more of a place for people who want to save their marriage I've gotten a lot of hostility since I started posting here and my God this is the first day I don't think people like That I want to divorce my wife and Not try

Of course you can leave your thread here. You will get plenty of support here!

Do not move your thread, please.

By you coming here, its says volumes to us.

As the unofficial comforter of fellow BHs, I like to play that role no matter the story they tell.

I recently wrote and got smashed for it that the deception my wife did to me was unparalleled in any of these forums however yours may certainly supercede mine. This is no contest and hurt is hurt is hurt. Maybe you can find something to cling onto to salvage this.

You are experinencing some severe shock and trauma and are making decisions, no matter how valid, while in this state.

Take a deep breath and let the people here see if they can help you through this.

Divorce is an option that will always be there, this month, next or in a year. I think your children (ALL OF THEM) deserve not to be devestated and crushed by the actions of your wife.

Can I suggest you find my thread called Deception in the SAA forum? No, I dont have the OC (other child) from her A, but it was a family friend my wife was with and it was long term deal so you may find the same emotions and travails I faced.

Stay the course for now, please.

mike

Mike can be a huge help to you, OM. Do a lot of reading around here and on the Divorced/Divorcing board. You CAN get a lot of support and help for your situation. This is not the marriage at all costs board and we consider many MB success stories to be people that were able to heal without saving their marriage.

Oldm you are getting some great advice and thinking material.

I do feel the comment on divorce is very relevant, as it was only 3 weeks after the bomb shell hit you that you made this decision. Such a decision made so quickly... especially while the pain of betrayal is so fresh... may not end up the right one for you. Of course it may be the only one but as pointed out... you can proceed anytime with that.... maybe right now it may be good to consider that ... a bit like a cooling off period to make sure you are totally convinced its the right one for you.

Your WW never considered getting caught. She wanted the moon, the sun, the stars, the entire box and dice. She wanted you, she wanted BF and it was just bloody selfish and uncaring. She has just begun to find out the cost. Right now even with all her pleas she does not really understand even a small part of your pain... with good counselling maybe from the Harleys here she will be able to start.

The care you have for your wife, even now, even after all she has done comes through your pain. It is somewthing that never fails to amaze me.

oldm, I would ask you to consider counselling with the Harleys for you and your WW to make sure your decision to divorce is right for you. It may be that it will reinforce your decision... because it is certainly justified.... you don't need to promise anything... maybe even ring yourself to see what perhaps could be an option.

no matter how 'gently' you handle the D issue your kids are going to hurt and NONE... understand NONE... of it is your fault.... but unfairly you will end up having to deal with it. That is just a fact.

No one Oldm I think will say divorce is not a real option for you. It may even be the best. We would love to see a M recover... but not all can or even should.

The one thing you have in this is its YOUR decision, you are in control of this one. You will get support here no matter which way it goes.

please do look after yourself as well.

I'm not going to advise you to try to save your marriage, just the opposite. But before you make any decision one way or the other you need to ask yourself if you want to maintain a father/daughter relationship with your wife's OC? Because you don't have a lot of time to make that decision. If you DON'T want to remain married to your wife and you are going to use the grounds of adultery with the OC as proof, you will not be able to maintain a relationship with the child as it will be established in court that you are not the father. You will not be required to pay child support but you will also not be allowed contact unless your fruit loop of a wife grants it to you. But you only have a short time to contest paternity once you discover you are not the father. Go over that time limit and you may be forced to pay child support even though you are proven not to be the father and denied visitation despite having to pay child support. Yes, this does happen. If you do decide to remain married, and you file for divorce later, expect to pay 16 more years of child support.

Quote

26/08/11-To present The real lunacy begins wife start showing up at my work every day I have told security not to let her in so she stands outside sometimes for hours starts showing up at my hotel trying to seduce me and starts to scream at me when I won't sleep with her
05/09/11 wife finds out where I live breaks in I come home she tries to force herself on me she gets violent when I say no I have to call her parents to come and get her
I love that part about her trying to guilt me but I really do not want to go and get a restraining order against her it would hurt the kids and I do not want to do that and I do not want to control her emotions I just want her to come to the practical realization that we can't fix this but to be honest at the same time I wish we could

If you are going to decide to divorce your wife, you need to get any preconceptions you may have about the process out of your mind. First off, I would advise you to get a restraining order against your wife, you SHOULD have called the police to report the breaking and entering, don�t know if you still can but a restraining order should be pursued because your wife is not stable and who knows what she may pull. I would expect a manufactured incident if I were you so the focus becomes on you being a violent spouse instead of her cheating.


Secondly, why are you willing to give her the house etc? Why wouldn�t you pursue an equitable distribution of assets? Your wife was willing to perpetuate paternity fraud and would have never confessed it to you, why are you so magnanimous in return? Wait until she realizes that you do really want to proceed with the divorce and the gloves come off. You need to do what your attorney tells you to do, oldmittens, the divorce process is not kind to men and fraught with peril with consequences for even the littlest things that you may do. Time to be smart about protecting yourself.


If you decide to pursue a divorce, come back and ask any questions you want and we will answer them to the best of our ability. If you decide to accept the OC as your own, perhaps you should read the pregnancy section here. I won�t be able to help you so much for that. What your wife did would be beyond my capacity to forgive and overcome. If I were in your shoes I would be asking for the whole enchilada, 100% custody of my two older kids, child support, etc, with set visitation for your STBX, exclusive use of the family home, etc.

Stay on this forum. We've walked the walk and don't feel any hostility towards you.

I could not stay with a woman who betrayed me to the depths that your WW betrayed you. I could not raise an OC.

That's me.

I ask that you seriously consider letting the bio father be responsible for that child and have HIM pay child support.

Otherwise, you will be stuck paying CS for a child that isn't yours. I can also tell you that while your WW will be all weepy and whiny and wanting you right now that she will eventually move on to an anger phase and likely get really ugly and nasty with you.

You have every right to D. Press on. But strongly consider whether or not you wish to stay responsible for a child that isn't yours.

Why do that? Why let the OM go scott free? Let him pay the CS and have the visitation.

You have your true daughters to focus on, who are young women that need your care and attention.

Don't disappear on them.

Good luck, my friend.

Does the OM know the OC is his? If so, did he know all along?

In your state of residence does the OM have any rights to the child?

I think you need to get that restraining order.

Sorry you're here, Oldmittens.

Hope you do not get the idea that I don't "like" you or your posts, nor am I upset by your resolution.

I am neutral on your situation.

I just hope you have spent enough time (again 3 months is not that long a time)deciding on what you want to do.

Is this your first marriage?
First divorce?

Have you read/talked to/have any close friends who have gone through this process? It will alter you forever.. in both good ways and bad.
It may not be as easy as you indicate.

(...but, in the end... I have never been divorced... so I really should not advise you.)


There have been many, many BS who initially start out here thinking divorce is the only option, and changing their opinions later. That is what I was trying/ going to say. ...(In fact, there are A LOT of recent posters who have gone through this.)

Remember... above all.. YOU and your integrity in the end. You have children, I am sure you are well aware and don't need me to point out. I don't really know how/if you qualify/decide if they are really "yours" or not.

But as a father you have to give pause and consider if you have tried everything possible to reconcile this M first... before you change their world so much.
I am NOT saying "stay for the children". This is really about you, well, you and your wife.

If you know yourself that well, and know you can not forgive her nor change how you feel about M recovery. YOU already are on the best path.

Welcome to MB and so sorry for your situation for you lost both a wife and a best friend.

I completely understand why you are divorcing your ww. But I am one who is frightened she will be so selfish (as all wayards are) that she will attempt to USE the child against you or feign harm to herself or her child to force you to remain with her. It is a very controlling thing, but something my xwh did to me once after a d day. He pretended to want to do harm to himself, as he thought I was done and divorcing him.

Never underestimate the CRAZY of a wayward. Never! And since you love your dd, you should stand up for her since her mother never did.

Keep your dd safe. I would if ww threatens harm to herself, call 911 and HAVE HER TAKEN TO THE HOSPITAL and have a record of this so you can legally use it against her in court. She sounds (sad to say this) like a selfish nutjob.

And fwiw, my xwh broke into my home too, and would call and harass me and harass me until he could attempt to get some sort of contact. Again, waywards ARE selfish creatures by nature, and she isn't getting what she wants right now (you to sweep this under the rug) and she is facing a divorce and possibly the loss of her children due to her crazy behavior and immorality.

Do not feel too bad for her imho, because she deliberately knew and deceived you about the paternity. It is horrible. I know how it feels, b/c my xwh got the ow pregnant. The moment I found out about that, I went from the MB plan B (where you end contact until the affair is over) to plan D/F-U. It crushed me totally. I also fell under the category here of a woman who would refuse to help raise her wh's oc. Nope. Not ever gonna think about that one.

However, some here have healed their marriages and dealt with the oc issue successfully, but it takes an iron clad will to go forward with it. However, your situation is more complicated b/c you have a TOTALLY VIOLENT AND OUT OF CONTROL WAYWARD WIFE.

That is a different dynamic altogether. Again if it were me, go forward with the divorce and get your kids away from this nut. The wingnut is trying to MANIPULATE YOU FURTHER (even more than by denying you the truth of the paternity) by threatening harm to herself, being violent TO you (the wronged party) and imho, she could be totally violent or evil to the kids too at one point. Who knows what she might do to oc? She might BLAME the oc for HER own actions and take it out on her.

I would be very scared to have any children around this woman. Do not feel too much pity for your ww, as she was able to cheat with your BF for years and have a baby with him under the radar. She's a conniving woman and possibly even dangerous.

Put your KIDS FIRST right now. Keep you, and keep them safe.

first of all I want to get one thing out way to make it perfectly clear I want All three of my DDS in my life and that whatever happens my youngest will be my daughter and no one else's the other man does not know he could be the father.

Second I want to say that I get what a lot of you are saying about holding off on the divorce and giving myself more time and it makes a lot of sense but the thing I keep coming back to is how can I even consider reconciling with someone I can't even stand to be in the same room with and it's not that I don't love my wife she is the love of my life and always will be it's just I feel so helpless when I'm around her I mean I tried my best to be a good husband I Worked 9 to 5 job I spent as much time as I could with her I thought she was the most beautiful woman I've ever seen I've been in love with her since I was 15 years old I loved her long before she loved me I mean this came out of nowhere I mean we did things together all the time we used to stay up till the late hours of the morning talking I found her to be the most fascinating person I've ever met not to mention the sex the most mind blowing powerful wonderful sex I've ever had and that's what bothers me the most I don't understand why.


I mean if I had been ignoring her if I had been working too much if I had been neglecting her but there was nothing wrong from what I can tell and she has said the same thing she said she was perfectly happy with me then why why do this I mean why destroy everything for something that she said was just a bit of fun I mean I used to go around Bragging about my great wife and the fact that we had sex five nights a week and the fact that she loved the same things I loved That we had so much in common but I'm rambling and should get on with the rest of my post.

and that's really why I can't reconcile is I'm so sad not angry sad sad that she ruined it ruined something that I thought was well perfect but It all was a Lie. as for the kids as it stands right now I'm not too worried about them being with her and in fact I believe they're the only thing that is keeping her sane right now she has been nothing but a great mother since the day we had our first child and whatever she's done to me I do believe she's had nothing but the best interest of our children at heart and until I see otherwise I am not Going to try to take them From her the one thing we have been able to agree on through all of this is that children need both of us in our lives and that neither one of us wants to take them away from the other.

As for the divorce I'm not taking the home because I don't want it they had sex in their dozens of times in my own bed in my study And in pretty much every room of the house it is tainted beyond repair for me I want nothing to do with it and hope to never step foot in it again but I will not go after the money in the house because there's a good chance then we would lose it and I don't want my daughters to lose their home the only home they've ever known And as for everything in it I've already got what I want from the house anything of personal value she can have the rest it's just stuff I just want half our savings half of our pension and my car just enough to start a new life I want to earn my new life and I don't want to say anything for my new life is dependent on anything from the old I want a new beginning.

Now on to the wife well today was just like any other in this new Sad chapter of my life I get to work and guess who's waiting for me And she's there again as I go to walk into the building she runs up to me with the same story again that she's sorry that we can get past this that were soulmates that she loves me today it got really bad I got to work at 9 AM and she was Already there waiting for me when I left at 8 PM she were still there she had Her mother Watch our youngest the only time she left was to go home and make supper for our kids and then she came back I'm really starting to worry about her this isn't healthy it is insane I told her she needs help that she should go and see a psychiatrist or some mental health professional that she's not coping well and that she should talk to her family about this she said she's trying to but the only family she wants to talk to it about is trying to divorce her I have to give her props there It was a nice comeback.

I don't think you can convince a WS that "it's over". WW's family can look after her if she starts melting down to the point of harming herself. Drowning people tend to hold on and drown other people so stay a safe distance away from WW.

Is there any indication that she might have done anything like this before?
Is she a person who tends to feel entitled?
I can understand that you are thinking in circles, trying to figure out the WHY. If it is totally unlike her, did your former BF persuade her that it is "only" a bit of fun? The long time frame makes it hard to understand though. Especially because I understand from your post that she didn't really see it as a problem?!

Maybe a round or two of MB counseling together would not be such a bad idea. You might be able to reach an agreement, that her practically stalking you won't lead to you liking her more. On the contrary.

At this point it is important not to reward her for stalking you by talking to her. It is better to write her a letter under what conditions you and at what point in time you are willing to talk to her about which subjects - and stick with it.

It is also a good idea to talk with an intermediary present (counselor?) so that she does not have the chance to make it another plea for you to stay.

God bless,

Happyheart

The well-accepted words of advice have it that folks in our situations should NOT make life-changing decisions until a period of about six months have passed. Far too many "yes-no", "up-down", "left-right" oscillations would be in progress to permit an optimal assessment of where one is, and which direction in which to proceed. Letting the highs and lows moderate would give one a better chance of recovery, in whatever form.

You, sir, are about as showing evidence of fluctuating as wildly as anyone on this board recently. (This is not a comment of degradation, but of compassion.) Looking at your words in only this most recent posting reveals a man torn between two impulses - disgust and hatred toward her faithless actions, and ongoing love and appreciation for the person who committed them.

STOP! Don't DO anything for an hour or two. Take that period and ask herself which of those two impulses is the stronger RIGHT NOW.

DO YOU LOVE HER MORE THAN YOU HATE HER ACTIONS? HAVE HER ACTIONS KILLED, NOT DAMAGED, YOUR ONCE-STRONG LOVE FOR HER?

Bring back the answer. Do not cloud the issue with historical ramblings about working too much, or great five-day-a-week sex, or anything else. Just answer the most important question you and your family will ever face.

This is NOT going to be a one-time exercise (the whole idea behind the six-months hiatus). There are daily decisions you have to make, and things you'll have to do, but every day you should ask yourself those questiions.

If you find a consistency of your feelings over a period of time, then you'll know your path. But IF your ultimate decision is to dissolve the marriage, you should do so firm in the knowledge that you no longer love her. Divorcing her, if while still claiming to love her (your words, not mine), merely to satisfy some sense of marital obligation, would not be in your best interest.

I would like to add my .02 here. NG is giving some very strong advice. I know I went into my d too early. I still don't want to get divorced. But I have reflected a great deal through the past 4 months and realize that my ww won't change.

She is a self-entitled person who has never lost anything in her life. Her independent lifestyle is more important to her than being a family oriented person. I am a pro-marriage individual who wants my family and a wife who is willing to put as much into the marriage as myself. She couldn't, wouldn't, and never will!

So look at your situation and see if your wife can change/is willing to change/ and show remorse for her poor judgement. I have no choice because mine isn't willing to put forth the effort in our marriage---if yours is that tells you something!!!

I KNEW you would get to this point. It was the initial shock and depth of your pain that initially had you not wanting your YDD. Of course she is your daughter, biology does not make a parent.

Can you do this for your own sake and the for the sake of your children? Can you get your family or her family to convince her that you will get a restraining order and follow through with the D if she does not leave you alone? Then get an IM to communicate with her about the children and buy yourself some time to pray, think and heal for a while without your WW in your face. I really think her over the top behavior is driving you crazy and you need a clear head to truly know what is right for you and your family.

I also agree that a couple of sessions with Steve Harley would not hurt your situation. You don't counsel together so you won't have to have contact with her even on the phone.

I am rooting for you, OM!

How could he not know that he may be the father?

They were fooling around before, during and after her pregnancy and he saw her the entire time, how could he NOT suspect?

Is he mentally challenged?


You see, I fully support your right to divorce your wife if you so choose...it's just this story doesn't sound wholly believable so some of us question it and you a bit to see how real you are. I hope you are not a troll posting here with the intent to demonstrate that these forums only give lip service to supporting betrayed spouses right to divorce for adultery and that if someone actually tries to do it...they'll be run off the boards and/or harassed for not trying to save their marriage. Then again...a troll point could be a demonstration of how being tuff and firm with your wayward wife will get her to grovel for you back.

If you aren't a troll...I apologize. You have every right to be as mean, upset, ticked off and done as you want to be. Please understand the anonymous nature of forums invites in a lot of wackos Many of us have come to love this place and it has been attacked again and again over the years by various agendas and various methods. Fake threads and fake stories is one such method. So forgive us if we are a tad skeptical of out-of-the-norm story lines like yours. Most betrayed spouses aren't so sure so quickly about what they plan to do. I know I wasn't and I'm a lawyer trained in critical thinking skills. Then again, maybe it's just those so sure don't show up here (until now). As NG said, we have no choice but to take you at your word.

Carry on,

Mr. Wondering

We don't hate you.

We won't hate on your bee itch WW either.

We know that life important decisions should not be made for at least 6 months past Dday.

There have beed many a BH here before you where their WW got the gift of an OC from the OM.

You are no different.

Some have recovered.

Some have chose to divorce.

Either decision is the correct decision. What each individual BH wants is in the end the right decision.

The thing you are doing wrong is to rush the decision before 6 months go by.

Why is 6 months important?

Time for your mind to process all that has happened. Time for you to come down somewhat. Time for you to think thru all the implications that your one decision to recover or divorce will have.

Mr. W, OM is not a troll. He has been posting elsewhere but needed more help than could be provided there. He is a very hurt man that has been betrayed by his WW, his BFF and the recentl knowledge that his YDD is not his biologically.

Thanks FF...

guess I still have post traumatic posting disorder from all the went on here prior to the troll & witch purge last year.

I was trying to be less suspicious/paranoid myself while communicating to the original poster a little of the undertones he was reading as hostility on his thread.

I bet the OM doesn't suspect the child is his because the wayward wife lied to OM and somehow convinced him otherwise. He had to have suspected at one time....say when the WW first discovered she was pregnant, that he COULD BE the father.

What a jerk.

I think I'd walk in this situation too. At least I hope I would, but I don't think I'd be so quick to decide my children were ok to leave behind in her care. Waywards aren't good parents...but expediency has it's benefits too.

Mr. W

Ok, old mittens, deep breath time, take it in, let it out. I need you to do some thinking with your head now, not your heart because your heart is in a very bad place right now and you need to think rationally.

You want advice from people who have been through divorce with kids, ok, you're getting that. There are certain things that you need to do to make sure that your goals of minimizing the effect of a divorce upon your children and maintaining as much of that relationship as possible come to fruition.

The first thing that you need to do is reconsider your decision not to seek a TRO against your wife. Your wife has already been violent, if she is violent again and you have to defend yourself even if it's only to restrain her, chances are you are going to spend a night in jail with a DV charge against you. That charge will be used against you to minimize the time you have with your children - don't think you want to have supervised visitation, do you? Or a criminal record?

It's pretty considerate of you to consider your wife's feelings considering what she's done to you, I hope you don't believe that will be reciprocated by her? If so, you need to disabuse yourself of that notion pretty quickly. Once your wife does understand that you are resolute in your desire to get divorced she will get an attorney. Do you think her attorney is going to be considerate of your feelings? They will take advantage of your emotional state with absolutely no compunction at all to get her the maximum amount of money and assets out of you. You wrote the following:

Quote

And on the custody matter I'm not really worried she has in no way responded to my filing for divorce legally that is if I wanted to take everything we own I don't think I'd have much trouble from a legal standpoint because she is refusing to even acknowledge the fact that we are getting divorced

This is a dangerous and naive way of thinking. I will explain why in a minute.

I mentioned a time limit in my last reply to you. In cases of paternity fraud there is a finite window of time in which a defrauded husband can apply for relief from the court and contest paternity. If you go past this window, the court doesn't care if you were distraught, doesn't care if you were mulling your decision and couldn't make a difficult choice, doesn't care one iota what problems you may have been having, all it cares is that you had a chance to contest paternity and you didn't. All the courts care about is getting someone other than the state, almost invariably a man, to pay for supporting children. They don't really care if someone pays for a child that is not theirs just as long as someone is paying. Men have contested these situations for a long time now in court and have only been grudgingly allotted time to contest paternity.

If you do NOT contest paternity, I can guarantee you that you are going to pay child support for your wife's OC. Does paying this child support mean that you will have shared custody or visitation rights to that child - the answer is probably NO. If your wife tells the court that the child is not yours but another man's AND you have NOT contested paternity, you could find yourself in the situation where you are paying child support and are not allowed to have ANY contact with the child.

http://www.dailynews.com/opinions/ci_18185434

Read what is at the above link. Do a search on paying child support despite a negative DNA test.

Old mittens, you don't have to take my word, or anyone else's for that matter, about what would/could happen to you in mediation or in family court, ask your attorney if what I am saying is true or correct. But heed this warning. There would be a good chance that you could end up with an ex-wife living with someone else in a house that you would still be paying for, paying an awful amount of child support for three children, probably somewhere around 65 - 70 % of your gross pay, until the OC is 18 years old, with maybe Wednesday night and every other weekend with your two older kids.

Still feeling magnanimous?

You haven't said how old you are. I would imagine there would be a possibility that somewhere down the line you may get married again if you do get divorced now. Think of the effect decisions you make now might have on your ability to afford to have a wife and perhaps more children later.

I am imploring you to try to compartmentalize your grief/sadness/anger/despair and try to think things through from a rational perspective, think about your financial future, think about maximizing time with your children. If this is hostile to you, I'm sorry that you would think that. I am really trying to help you, and if it takes me telling you that you need to get your head out of your butt right now, so be it.

Whoa - you scared me there for a minute, faithful follower!

Maybe we should use lower-case initials when we shorten oldmittens' posting name.

ha ha!

MB, that's why I've been spelling out the name - was like I didn't want to add insult to injury.

How about 'mitt'? Or am I just being distracted by Americajin's tagline?

I just want to say thank you For giving all The great device you have been giving.

First of all hello faithful follower I did not realize you were the same one from the other Board it's a small world LOL thanks for picking up for me I'm not sure what a troll is but it doesn't sound very nice I'm not very familiar with slang on this site so I'm not sure if I'm a troll but if it's what I think is I'm not is all I can say.


I guess I should first talk about why I have been so magnanimous as some of you put it with my wife Just after I filed for divorce My wife had a nervous breakdown and was in the hospital for a few days and in that time pretty much everyone turned against me my parents my children friends all said I was being unfair and that I should give her another chance and some very hurtful things were said that I will not repeat here but will never forget things calmed down after a Few days and everything's good again with My mom dad and DDS but I'm afraid if I file a restraining order that Will be angry at me again And think I'm bullying my wife again.


but a lot of you are right of course I need to get tougher I've got to stop This craziness and take control of my life I met with my lawyer today and we went over the divorce papers that have been filed And it looks good my lawyer says I have a great chance at 50-50 custody he says that's becoming more and more the norm in Canada and The fact Is that My daughters are at the age where they can decide for themselves legally as for my youngest he says That he's confident I will get 50-50 he says that if she does try to take that from me we still have time to get a paternity test And prove I'm not the father he says
It's good that I found out about this while she Is still young that I would be pretty much screwed if she were older but says I have a Great chance at 50-50 custody


As for all the other aspects of the divorce things are actually going surprisingly easy this has to do with the fact that my wife is not contesting at least not legally I don't think she knows that I can get divorced without her cooperation (That's my guess anyway I really don't know) in fact at this point the divorce will be final in less than 11 months(I say divorce but it's actually a separation agreement in Canada You have to be separated for one year before you can divorce) and I already have all of my stuff out of the house and bank accounts are separated My Check Goes in to my account and the only thing really left to figure out is how to divvy up the debt it really is a lot easier to divorce/Separate when you get to make all the decisions now I know that can change in a second if she decides to get rough but she has missed 2 Mediation sessions already so I know she still Could Get nasty with this but I don't think she will mainly because I don't think she knows how to deal with this.


So that brings me to my wife and another day on the roller coaster today started out great I went to work and she was not there the first time in weeks Got a lot of work done and Caught up on some things and it was a lovely Oasis from all the things that have been happening lately Then when I got off work I went and picked up my daughter's From their friends and we went home made some dinner and then we started to have a talk and it was great we got a lot of things out they understand now why I can't be with their mother and I think they're going to be okay with it they said no matter what that they love me and I said the same thing. We then got onto the subject of how their mother has been taking all of this and they are really starting to worry about her apparently when she's home with them all she talks about is me and How her life Is pointless without me in it that she Is so sorry and she keeps asking the girls to talk to me and get me to understand how sorry she is. And it's starting to really upset them and asked me to talk to her I told them that I would and that we would figure this out together so I called my wife and told her that we need to figure something out and that we have to get the children situated and make sure that no matter what happens their lives are not Disrupted more than needs to be she said she understands and that we should meet tomorrow and discuss it on a side note on grateful at least that's the only time she seems to talk rationally is when it's about children this is one of the reasons I'm not too worried about custody she always seems to come together for the kids.


PS maritalbliss I love Mitt it's actually quite close to my real name

$o.o2

Mitt;
What advice do you want from this site?

You have been given wonderful advice, a HUGE spectrum.

From waiting 6 mos - (industry standard)to
divorce, restrain her to retain and recover her.

and you have given back nothing but reasons why 100% of this advice won't work. It seems clear that you know your path.

You can not control your STBXW. We can not control her, either. She gets the divorce idea, she is simply hoping that you will change your mind.

She, even as a lowly BS is entitled to have that hope, you can not control nor take it away from her. Does not mean that it has an influence on your descisions, either.

Yours has been a long term relationship. About half your life. Half her life too. Yah, she is a screw up in the wife department, but like MOST WS's, REALITY is hitting hard.


Many have been in your shoes.
You are in a real mess.

On one hand...
I am very impressed that you stick to your guns mentality.
Everyone here (on MB) accepts that a BS can cut out of a marriage,

and
Many, many here would give their chewing molars for a WS that shows remorce.

Would hate to see you pre-judge and end what could be a recovered marriage.

Mitt:

Your story has really upset me and Ive spent the last couple of days thinking about it. I have not mentioned it to my wife but we did one time talk about her unprotected sex with OM and the possible ramifications. It was in the period I where I needed the dirty details and she gave them to me including a description of the pull and pray method they employed. Very nice.

I have never said this anyone including my most trusted sources of support, if I found out that he got her pregnant and they went about and aborted, Id be done with her. This thought shot thru my head for the first six weeks and since it was moot, I kept it silent.

I think you have accepted your youngest as not being 'yours'. She has done nothing to deserve what she potentially facing within her own home. When the dust clears I think you can live with this whammy on your life and cherish her like the older 2. I wouldnt want her to think she did this to the family at any point down the road.

When we took these women as our wives, in my opinion, we took the 'warts' too. Even the imperfections that are yet to come. Certainly giving you a child and to learn she not of your blood is a monumental wart on your marriage.

We did not deserve what our wives did. Its a blow to our masculinity no question. It take a man to help our wives through this and to chart a course to make life great again. It can be done.

Theres a Steve Martin movie from the early 90s called Parenthood where all the characters face family challenges and at the climax of the film, the old grandmother tells a story about a carnival she went to as a young woman and how all her friends like the carousel but not her. She likes roller coaster as it goes up and down with wild bumps, but the carousel goes round and round, "nothing" as she puts it. It was a poignant story about life and how the ups and downs are what make it great.

I think about this movie lately and like to think my life is getting better and better because the roller coaster my wife put us on. We were on the carousel and it go us nowhere.

All BS talk about the roller coaster we're on. At times its not very enjoyable, at times its the best thing.

Well I just got back from dinner with my wife and it certainly was Eventful but not in the way that it has been as of late it was actually quite nice we laughed we talked and we've come to a agreement on the kids (We have agreed to 50-50 joint custody she said she never take the kids for me) but that was not the most surprising thing Of the night the most surprising thing was the fact that I actually really enjoyed myself It felt like old times we've had a long hug but the biggest surprise was what she said at the end.

"while I know what I did was wrong and that you have every right to leave me and never speak to me again And I know how selfish it is to ask you to do anything more for me I'm going to ask you to do one last thing think about all the good times we had think about the love think about The memories think about our time together think about all that before you throw it away as is your right if you can think about that and still say you want a divorce I won't stand in your way but please don't give up on us without at least Trying because I know we can make it if We try I know you'll get tired of me saying this but it's the truth we are soulmates And need to be together Our lives cannot be right unless there spent with each other you are the love of my life and always will be and if you give me the chance I will spend the rest of my life making this up to you"


This has really thrown me I mean I was so sure up until She said that now I don't know what to think and to top it all off I come home and read the post by Mikestillstanding and it really got me I don't know what to do now and I am more confused now than ever do you think should i give her a second chance can you actually recover from this I like to believe we could but then that doubt comes back that nagging doubt that says She made a fool of you and she took quite a lot of pleasure in doing it so I guess what I'm asking is Can you actually have an affair with someone and still be in love with your spouse I mean infidelity by its nature is evil how can you do an evil thing to someone while still loving them???

Mitt, this is why we've been cautioning you to slow down and not make any life-altering decisions right now. You've got to process this thing that has turned your life upside down.

What do YOU want to do right now? "I don't know" is an acceptable answer. So, if you don't know - don't do anything. Absolutely! Mitt, adulterous relationships are built on fantasy. It's not reality. Your WW's affair is the same. She suspended reality in order to pursue her fantasy. It was all about HER. You know one of the more commonly used expressions that waywards say - they tell their devastated spouse that they 'never meant to hurt them' HUH?? What did they THINK the affair would do to their spouse??

You are still processing this and haven't come to the point of acceptance. You will need to eventually accept the fact that your loving wife was unfaithful to you. That will come if you decide to reconcile and rebuild your marriage using the program on this site.

It's really up to you, Mitt. You're driving the bus.

OldMitt, This is the rollercoaster you have been unfortunately placed upon. Several things I wanted to add to the excellent advice you've already received.

That nagging doubt about her joy from making a fool out of you is not a doubt - it was part of the thrill she received from her affair. An affair is awful, but it takes an especially cruel person to do it with the Betrayed Spouse's best friend.

So far, from what you have written, she is in panic mode from her fantasy(the OM) being ruined by reality (yes, you). There is a difference from feeling remorse and shame by hurting the spouse and being embarrased and humiliated from being caught.Be cautious about noting that in her.

One thing I find puzzling is the lack of effort from many cheating spouses - how many posts here feature the Betrayed Spouses finding help, buying books, seeking counseling, etc. So far, I haven't seen anything in your posts where your WW has presented a plan to recover - not even a hint of where she could begin. All I see is her throwing a tantrum that you ruined her fantasy - she even brought your kids into it, trying to have them show you how much "anguish" she is in over ruining her marriage.

OldMittens, I hope you find the strength to move on in life, either in reconciliation or finding a new love. Posters here are advising you on taking time about divorce, which is a good idea that I'll add to. You need time to see if your WW is truly sorry and willing to do the "heavy lifting" to show you how much you mean to her.

Hi, how have you been doing?

Canada... I was wondering why the weird date formatting

I am a BH with a OC, although I differ in that I knew the OC was not mine during pregnancy. We gave her up for adoption so I didn't get to form that bond that you have with your YDD.

I've had more children with my wife since the OC and we are still happily married.

I've just now caught up on your thread and I am so happy to see the "Wait 6 months before you make a decision" posted several times.

Only advice I can give is to watch, watch her.
Watch her actions, not her words.
Give yourself time, leave one of Dr. Harleys books around but don't ask her to read it.

and if you do consider to at least try, A polygraph would be a good place to start.

RMX

I haven't posted in a while but I'm on this site every day reading other people's posts the stories I've read here of Heartbreak and Joy are amazing In particular the stories of Iamdown2010 mirrormirror And wulffpack_girl I wish you all the best of luck and I hope your marriage is work out.

Well I suppose it's time for an update if you read my last post you will now that my wife and I went to dinner and had a really great time and she said some things that really got to me I did not sleep that night I kept thinking maybe I should try again and that maybe I acted to rashly I kept thinking about what everyone was saying here that I should wait and give it more time and that I should not make any rash decisions so I took a few days off from work and started to think I read surviving an affair and spent most of my free time on this site reading other people's posts and then I came across two posts in particular that really gave me hope in two completely different ways I read the post of mirrormirror and how his wife was so sorry and that they seem to be doing so well and she is willing to do anything to make it up to him and then I read the posts of Iamdown2010 and was shocked by the cruelty that his wife showed him and even more shocked that he was still willing to try to fix it And that got me thinking if this man can do with why can't i but mostly it was my wife and what she said to me at dinner looking into her eyes I really believe that she is sorry and while I still don't understand how she could do it I think I'm going to try and find out.

So after a week or so I decide that I need to talk to my wife and that maybe I'm not as ready for divorce as i thought. I had not spoken to my wife since that dinner she had said at the dinner that the craziness Would Stop And it had and that just made it all the more confusing so I meet with my wife and we have a long conversation in which I told her that I am willing to reconcile ( if you could've seen the look of joy on her face) I tell her that this is not something that we can just put behind us and that if she expects us to recover she has to make the plan she has to put all the effort in (I know I have to as well) and she is the one who has to come up with a way to save this marriage. but it seems like she was way ahead of me she has already had a marriage counselor booked been on several infidelity boards picked up several books on recovery and coincidentally has Artie been on this site and ordered his needs her needs and she did this all before she even knew I was willing to reconcile.

so it's late now and getting tired of typing so I should get to my point I'm set to move back in to the house on October 1 and I am very scared what if I can't live with her? what if she's not remorseful? what if she does it again? how do you recover? what do we have to do? what do I have to do? what does she have to do? Can we even recover do I want to so many questions and I have none of the answers I guess I've just come here to get everyone's advice and opinions do you think We have a shot at recovering this marriage.

Firstly, congratulations on the courage to consider the decision to reconcile with your wife.

what if I can't live with her? what if she's not remorseful? what if she does it again? how do you recover? what do we have to do? what do I have to do? what does she have to do? Can we even recover? do I want to?

OM, none of these questions are answerable by any of us. The only one that truly matters, though, and one that can be answered is:

do you think We have a shot at recovering this marriage?

Yes, you do have a shot. Assuming you're working the MB system, the most vital factor that YOU must manage is controlling the inevitable spikes of anger that WILL happen. DO NOT LET THEM BECOME AO'S ! Devise a plan now on how you will behave when they occur. Walk away...go for a drive...hit some golf balls...go to the gym...whatever will keep the evil genie in the bottle, do it.

OM, I was reading along and nodding my head until I got to this part:


None of this will recover your marriage. Most marriages do not ever recover from infidelity. If they stay together, they limp along in a crippled version of the pre-affair marriage and are more vulnerable to an affair AFTER than before the affair. Repeat affairs often do happen. [we have one such repeat affair on the SAA board right now, it is very common] There is a very narrow path to recovery and most do not find it. A marriage counselor is unlikely to help you either. Marriage counselors have an 84% failure rate and don't have the slightest idea how to save marriages. They have a higher personal divorce rate than the general population and are destructive to marriages.

The way to recover your marriage, fall in love again, and affair proof it for the future is summarized right here:

here

That program can be found in the book, Surviving an Affair. THAT is the one book that can help you turn this around and do it right. Please don't take chances on any other marriage program and most certainly not a marriage counselor who is not using MB concepts. Because I know of no other program that has any idea how to recover a marriage from infidelity and actually restore the ROMANCE in a marriage. Most in the profession don't even believe it can be done. How to Survive Infidelity

OM, does your former BF know that your youngest daughter is his? If so, that may complicate recovery. Also, if your wife seems so dedicated to your recovery, this would seem like a perfect time for you and your lawyer to draw up a post-nuptial agreement that your wife could sign.

Thank you and yes I know what you mean about those spikes of anger of always had a system for when i get angry i walk away But I know it won't be as simple as that and and I'm hoping to learn here how to keep my anger in check It's just I get so angry when i picture them together I feel like screaming at her and calling her Wh$#e But I just take deep breaths and stay calm and remind myself there are people who have gone through much worse.






thanks for the great advice MelodyLane and I get what you're saying I only mentioned what my wife had done because I believe she sincerely wants to reconcile and does love me and I have no doubt shall do whatever she can to help me recover from this and as for a surviving an affair I have read it already and so has my wife we're going to review it together tonight we are also going to read his needs her needs as well as all the MB concepts
I know this is going to be a slow and brutal road but I'm hoping it's going to be worth it.





no my former best friend does not know that he Is our daughter's biological father and he's never going to know whether this marriage works or not and asked for a post nuptial agreement I never thought of that but it's certainly something to consider I think I will bring it up with her and see how she reacts I would like to get one now that I think about it

So glad to hear you are giving R and MB a try!

Well it's official I moved back We did it a day early we celebrated and had a great night with my family We had dinner and it was extremely awkward at first but got better afterwards Then my wife and I had a long talk and we decided that we will give marriage counseling a try but I said that I really wanted to follow the MB principles and she said she will look at the site again she says she's willing to do anything I ask all she wants is for my forgiveness and to "prove That she's worthy to be called my wife" her words we then watched a movie with our daughters then went to bed she wanted to have sex but I felt I wasn't ready yet is that normal????

Can I add congrats? Deciding to recover my marriage after having been betrayed 2x was terrifying and the best thing I ever did.

CV

I read your Story celticvoyager I don't know where you get the strength then again I don't know where any of the BS who stay with their wives that are foggy as it is known here I just don't think I could do this if my wife was not absolutely begging me to stay I think remorse is extremely Important and if she didn't have it I don't think I would be able to recover

I think in a way it doesn't come from us. It has to be from several sources... I think the largest pool for me was my family and my own W.

It's hard and heartbreaking. Still is at times, just gets easier to deal with. But let me tell you something about a repentant wife... OM, if she works, she will knock your socks off in every way you can think of and a few you didn't. Ride the coaster and be aware of it. Being back will trigger you. Prepare yourself. You will be sad and angry and feel shamed and don't forget to love and be happy and enjoy her as you see her working. One of the things I took comfort in was my wife leaving her phone downstairs, sitting upstairs on the couch and putting my head on her lap and taking a nap. I felt secure and safe, knowing where she was and it was my best sleep. I felt loved.

You can do it. find what works for you. Make a "safe spot" in the house. A place where you both go for "time-out". Ours was the bedroom. Our bed. If I was triggered, she would put her head on my chest and arguing ceased. Only tender words were spoken there. It was hard many times, but I always appreciated it. Now I do it when she needs comfort too.

CV

Now, the hard work begins. Congrats, and remember, post often to get whatever help you need.

Have you two thought about using the coaching center or the online program? You should kick start this recovery the right way. Do you have your UA time scheduled out for this week? 20-25 hours at MINIMUM. And, you can't just do anything together, you need to meet those 4 most important ENs.


Now, a tiny T/J, posters could we use a diff short form than "OM?" Maybe, "OlM?"

I would probably hold off on the sex too. First off did you get STD testing? You both need to be tested. She definitely needs IC, to find out why she did this to you. She didn't have a epiphany, or just wake up. She was caught, and it would have kept going, but for the inadvertent slip up in their communication. She planned it over two years, and I can guarantee you that when they were planning their get togethers, they did it with amusement at your expense. You may now be wholehearted in your attempts at reconciliation. But you both better keep real about this. You need to set goals and take stock of your relationship.

No one here wants to mention the 800lb gorilla. THIS WASN'T THAT YOU WEREN'T FILLING HER NEEDS. You were a model husband, you loved your wife and the way you described your relationship, she was meeting your needs. So this was not an affair of the heart, just as she said. So she was able to do this for two years. SHE HAD NO COMPLAINTS ABOUT YOU. And yet she had sex for two years with your best friend. Did you ever wonder why your best friend was able to admit to everything and your wife was unable to admit to anything? Next do you know how it happened? Who was the pursuer?

Next you need an accurate journal from her on what happened. Why? Because there is a good chance in the future that you will find something out that she forgot or was afraid to tell you. It will bring you back to dday.

She set up MC, you had a great marriage. But has she asked herself the hard question. "What is inside of me that would make me sacrifice my family, my life and the parentage of my youngest daughter, when everything in my life was wonderful? Why would I sacrifice all that I have for a few second orgasm with someone I don't love?

Others may flame me for bringing this up. But it seems that everyone is so worried about your marriage staying together, when no one knows what possessed her to do this. Its great that you moved back in, but I don't think the posters here have given you their full council. Think for a moment. Everyone (that includes you and her) has been focused on anyway to try and get you to move back in. They should've encouraged you to get her into individual counseling. Its not where you sleep that is the important thing. I read your whole post and I will wager that your wife still doesn't understand what's inside that allowed her to do this.

And as far as your wife not believing that your daughter was the best mans. Gotta call BS on that one. She new damn well there was a chance. That's why she was holding her in her arms and forced you take her when you showed up.

The problem is. She is still not being honest with you. That means you are making decisions without all the information. Her complete honesty would do more good for your marriage then moving right back in. Don't you see that was the goal. Not your healing and not her realization of why she did it. Good luck

Were your other children tested?

I thought we were going with 'mitt'? Maybe that got lost in the shuffle

Think that was me... Sorry guys and gals!

Wow you've given me a lot to think about As soon as I read this I went and asked her to write out a list of everything that happened between the two of them and I do know a few things I do know she was the one who started it and that most of what went on between them physically happened in the first six months it seems from what I can tell from the e-mails that it would get very hot and very cold I would say almost 80% of the PA happened in the first six months then it died for almost a year then picked back up For a few months and then died again and as for why she did it she says it was just fun she said she was getting close to 40 and getting scared of being old and unattractive and she thought why not the whole premise of the affair was built on one thing that I never find out and she says that's how she justified it to her self that as long as I never find out I would never get hurt and that's very hard to deal with because it makes me wonder if she'll do it again.



But she says she's going to do anything I ask to make things better and that she knows what she did was wrong I told her that I want her to go to IC that we need to find out how she could do this I think I understand why she did it I think it was just a midlife crisis that got out of hand I think she just had a hard time ending it because she was afraid that I might find out or notice something after the six months it was the FBF That did the pursuing and they only had sex four or so times after that it seems from what I can tell that he Had fallen for my wife he had said I love you in e-mails several times I can find no evidence that my wife ever said to him and that's very important to me I'm going to keep looking. Right now the focus on the important things getting her into IC and getting all the details I already have all their e-mails printed off But I want her to tell me the details And she's going to she's writing the letter Right now.






I'm pretty sure we all settled on mitt As well

Thanks for understanding. Her reason feeling old and unattractive. You said you always told her how beautiful she was. It was "fun". It was fun to take something that was so precious (your love and family) and do this. She new your BFF loved her. She never said that she loved him. Listen closely to what you wrote. She never said she loved him. And that is a good thing? No your wife, manipulated and pursued your best friend. When she had him she used him by manipulating him with sex. It is not some great badge that she didn't say she loved him. It only means that she was able to use him and his love to have a little fun. You see what I am saying. Even the way she and you perceive things is twisted. This is not a MLC where she goes off and has an affair, realizes it, comes to you with tears and weeping. This is you finding out, her lying, your friend telling you the truth. 1st you two have to have complete honesty. And with me that would be a journal and a polygraph afterward. Have you talked to your friend since? When the journal is done. Sit him down and get his side of the story. This is not to punish him or her more. Its to find out one thing. Is your wife still lying to you, about anything. If she is, then I can tell you that your reconciliation means nothing. Other then proving she is still a liar. A very hard working, stand at your business office for 16hr a day, beg plead and shamble the streets like the walking dead, but still a liar. In the end she found out that backing off after the barrage is what worked. It still DOESN'T MEAN HONESTY. And I am afraid you will have to do some inventory yourself. For instance when she got pregnant, were you actively seeking to have a baby? Or did it just happen? Did you use protection? Was it just a blessed accident, that she surprised you with? Think!

I don't want you to not reconcile. I want you to do it so 2 years down the line of her doing 110% of the work and yet still have walls up that could make you say "she hasn't changed". You can find people on here that have done that and it is even more pain, cause the marriage died anyway.

I suppose I should clear a few things up first of all My former best friend is no victim in all this when they first started this. They both agreed it was just sex nothing more He was the one who developed feelings later on and that's why she stopped the affair with him And it was Over For almost a year He was the one Pursuing her and she told him that she didn't want to It anymore Not that it makes it any better But when I said midlife crisis I meant the first six months Everything after that I still don't understand myself why she went back After almost a year I Just can't get That's why this letter is so very important to me When she's done writing the letter the plan is for me to read it alone and then when I'm ready for her to come and we will discuss it together And no I will Not be talking with my former best friend he is Dead to me And I never want to see him again Maybe in the future when things calm down I'll take up that idea Right now if I see him I might just kill him So I don't think that It's a good idea for me to see him

Thanks for clearing that up. So were you trying for the baby? Or was it a surprise? This is the point. You have to tell the truth to yourself too.

no we were trying for baby it was A surprise and I get what you're saying about telling the truth to myself as well I don't imagine this going to be easy but I feel my families Worth enough to at least try

Its absolutely worth it. So you were on birth control with her. But she didn't use it with him? So she new, or at least believed that it was possible that it was his child. That is why she screamed at you initially when you confronted her. She knew then and was hoping that her response would scare you off.

The point I am making. Is right now, her interest was one thing. Getting you back in the house. Not the truth, or your healing. Not only did she cheat on you. But she manipulated you then, and most likely now.

This is important. Has she joined or is she reading about other WW? Like on here or one of the other sites? For instance. There are multiple threads on this and other sites that have your problem. Cheating wife and OC. And one thing in common about the WW. They are all over the sites on how to help their husbands heal and voicing their contrition. If your wife has not joined or is not researching how to help you (on her own), this could also mean that she already new that the baby was not yours. Why? Because even though you are going through the pain, and I am sure it is acute, it will be old news to her. It doesn't mean that she doesn't care. It just means that what she did to was 2 years ago regarding the baby, is not new to her. Where if it was news to her. She would be all over the internet on how to help you heal. I am on 5 of the most popular sites. No new story as yet regarding a new WW and OC. I guess, my question is. Where is the contrite cheater trying to find anything she can do to heal her husband?

There is a policy on this site of COMPLETE HONESTY between couples. Others here have the initials for it.

mitt,


RH is the acronym: Radical Honesty.


Or O&H Openness and Honesty.

Depends on which one you're talking about.


Either way, you can't begin your recovery if you don't have them.


If your wife was willing to talk to you about how the affair unfolded, the times they had sex, and the concept of the affair (that it was supposed to be sex-only, not an emotional deal, then OM began to express feelings), it seems like she is being fairly open about what happened. Those statements seem fairly common among affairs, and don't seem to be anything I would think of as "lies". Typical stuff, really, so she's telling you stuff that most of us have heard before.

What you are looking for from your WW is for her to express her remorse, to work the MB program with you. That would mean that when YOU are comfortable with it, you begin to introduce the ideas here (so she does not find the website until you are ready for her to).

1. Radical Honesty, Openness and Honesty : you want these from her. Talk to her about these concepts, but you may not want to use the terms with her yet so she cannot Google them.

2. Emotional needs: talk about the idea of meeting each other's needs.

3. Have her write a letter of No Contact to the OM. You approve it, and you send it.

4. Extraordinary Precautions: because she has violated the terms of the marriage, you now feel very unsafe. You wonder if you can trust her when you are not around. So she needs to do some things that make you feel safer - EPs. Look through the threads and find out what these are; changing passwords and cellphone numbers, giving you complete access to all of them, never being with men alone again, calling you when she will be late, keeping you informed of her whereabouts, etc. There are lots of things she can do, and should do.

5. Undivided Attention/15 hours together: You two need to begin to rebuild your lives TOGETHER. So, figure out how you will be spending your time in FUN ways together. Get to planning that - and NO, it will NOT be talking about the affair.


SB

Mitt,

I am glad you've decided to give reconciliation a chance, and not just for your children, but for yourself AND your wife. Let Surviving an Affair be your guide, and, if you can swing it, do some coaching over the phone and/or do the home study course.

Yes, your wife needs to make just compensation and sustain radically honest behavior, but it will not help if you go forward with doubt and suspicion guarding your every thought, word, and action.

Ask the questions you need to have answered, and then put the affair to rest. Work on meeting each other's emotional needs, preventing lovebusters, and rebuilding the romantic love between the two of you.

You seem to have generous reserves of inner strength. They will serve you well in the months ahead as the two of you work together to create the marriage you need and want. Friends here will help support you during the roller coaster ride ahead.

BTW, Parenthood is a great movie and very affirming of marriage and family! And grandma's speech at the end about the roller coaster is wonderful.

thanks SB. Once you have the truth regarding her knowledge of the baby being his. Then you need to delve into the fact that, since she knew it was his baby and not yours. Why after having his baby, would she stop and then return to having sex with him? Another question. After the baby was born, did she push for you to get fixed. Or did she happen to get her tubes tied after the baby was born? What was her motivation? For instance, after my wife and I had finished. She made me get a vasectomy. Her reasoning. "If I went through the pain and discomfort of having the babies, its your turn". What does all this mean? If she had herself fixed, or had norplant or something like that. It could mean that she was planning on resuming the affair. You have to look to motivations. Freefall makes a good point. But it has to be YOU not seeking anymore information, and not her concealing or manipulating you.

Wow so much great advice don't even know where to begin as far as the OC is concerned she says she had doubts it was mine but didn't want to believe it so stuck her head in the sand and as for starting and stopping the affair she says after the first six months the guilt got to her and she gave it up but that they kept talking a lot and that he made her feel guilty about it so she started up Again and they had sex twice before she stopped again and the last time he threatened to tell me she didn't go through with it. ( FYI the last time they had sex was four months before D-Day)


And no neither one of us are "fixed" she says one of the reasons she went As nuts as she did was because once I said I was going to get a DNA test on our daughter she knew there was a chance that it wouldn't be my and she wanted to make sure I was part of her life and our daughters she says that there's no good reason for what she did and she knows it was a bad thing to do but she can't change the past all she wants is a chance to make the future better if I give it to her I won't be sorry.


As far as extraordinary precautions go i already have her e-mail passwords banking passwords i have all the information from her cell phone and can get access to it anytime i want She agreed to call me four times a day Morning Noon evening and night or until she gets home. Which shouldn't be too much of a big deal right now because she doesn't have a job right now ( she lost it because of her actions after D-Day) so she's looking for a new one now wants to take some time to focus on us first when I brought up the Idea of spending more time together she was ecstatic And we did Just that today we went swimming at the same place we had our first date and I must say it Was wonderful we kissed and made out like teenagers despite all this I must say my wife Is still a stunningly beautiful woman She has also written out A letter detailing the affair I have read it and I probably will post later and as far as her coming to this site she has been here but I don't think she is posted on the Forums and she does not know that I do If she wants to come and post I'm all for but as of right now I would rather Her not know that I'm posting here

One of the challenges will be the fact that, like the babies parentage, the affair is two years old. This is new to you. So your emotions will probably run more extreme then hers. Next its good that you are bonding, but you need to insure radical honesty from her. I would most assuredly schedule a polygraph test after some time, while I develop questions to ask her. Why? Because she is liar, and you need to find out if she chooses to continue to lie. I would probably not tell her that you were scheduling one. I would have to know if she was unfaithful with anyone else. Why? Because then she is a serial cheater and chooses to continue to lie. Then, I would choose divorce.

That's a good idea I think I will schedule polygraph but not right yet I want to give her a Chance to tell me everything and that means I have to give her some time

Like you said wait a little while, no notice. Then about 8 or 9 months later make her take another one. When she asks if she is going to have to take these all the time, tell her maybe. In other words, she needs to believe that you could pop one on her sometime in the future. If the question of trust comes up, just tell her that she was able to convince you for 2 years that another mans child was yours. she was able to convince you that she was "The Happiest Girl in the whole USA". Able to make you believe that she was yours body and soul. She was so very good at cheating, that you don't even know the part of her that would do that to you. Tell her you love her and without anger and that you won't be obsessive about it. BUT for the rest of your life you will need to check on her fidelity. Unfortunately, it is now part of the maintenance you have to do on your marriage. And its part of her penance.

Watching a cheater is not a prison sentence. But it sure as hell is parole.

bad day today Very bad triggers everywhere I go In the house I picture them having sex They pretty much had sex in every room in the house� The only place They didn't have sex really was in Our bed which is something I suppose so I got an idea( really I was inspired by another poster here) So I go around and move everything that triggers me my desk the couch in the living room and the couch in the reck room And some other things and load them into my truck and I get my wife and tell her to collect any clothes she wore when they had sex any lingerie or anything she wore for him or wore while with him bring it We pack it all up drive out to the dump and Ditch it and I must say felt great my wife just smiled at me and said whatever you need to do I'm behind you 100% and it felt really good to hear her say that but that soon went away still having the same problem I'm having since D-Day I am Fine around my wife For a little while then after a while I just get angrier and angrier when I look at her today was a big step its two-hour ride back and forth to the dump it's the longest time we spent alone together without me getting angry at her i keep telling myself baby steps How long does This anger Phase last.

months,years.........It will not stop until you know she has actually changed. Keep thinking of the questions.

not the answer I was hoping for but I have to keep telling myself that we had something great for and we can have it again

It really depends on you.I was angry.. really angry for 2 years. I mean really really angry...

Then... it just stopped. Baby steps is the key. the thing is, the anger, while it remains, DOES get easier to manage. you will be able to go longer and longer without AOs and will be angrier for shorter periods of time.

CV

I don't know how long it lasts, but I can tell you that you may get angrier in about 6-12 months from now.

Have you thought about doing the online program?

[i]

Quote

it was supposed to just be some fun and that I was never to find out that it changes nothing between us

I will never be able to move past what she's done and it is the worst kind of betrayal that one human being can do to another

I mean how could I she betrays me in the most cruel way imaginable and all for what for what she calls "just a bit of harmless fun" it's not so harmless now.

Just for purposes of reminding how this thread started.

[/i]

And here we come to the crux of your problem. I think you have this idyllic view of your wife, a fantasy that has no connection in reality as you found out the hard way. I'll bet your wife knows this well and has used it to her advantage throughout your marriage. I wondered about the title of your thread from the beginning, why would a guy try to convince a WS who has committed paternity fraud to "accept" anything? Almost like you felt you had to ask permission to divorce? And I wondered why? And I think we now have the answer. I think your wife is banking on that you will eventually cave and that everything will be back to normal if she can just get you to not leave for the next few months.

How much would you like to bet that this is not the first, or even the second time, she has cheated on you? Remember, it means nothing to her, it's just a little fun. As long as you don't know, it doesn't matter, right? Doesn't matter who with or even if she brings men into your home, yeah, she has a lot of respect for you. I hate to have to bring this up, but I would find a way to have a paternity test fro ALL of your children. You could do it without anyone knowing by collecting hair from a hairbrush.

OldMittens, there are some well meaning people here that want to try to do the best for posters who come here with problems. Sometimes you get very divergent views on how to proceed and it can be very confusing. I've already posted to you about the ramifications about decisions you will have to make shortly. If you are to continue your marriage to this woman, at the very least you need to consult with an attorney about a post-nuptual agreement acknowledging that you are not the biological father of the child and that if you were to get divorced in the future, you will not pay child support but would be willing to continue to be a father figure, and that you and your wife would share custody of all of your children. Not sure if this would fly legally so that is why I recommend you ask your attorney.

FWIW, I think you were right to file for divorce, and I think it would be a BIG mistake for you to reconcile. But since your wife is still a beautiful woman, perhaps you should proceed with a polygraph as some others have suggested. The first two questions should be:

Is this the first time you have cheated? If not, how many times?

Do you intend to cheat again?

I think you'll find out a lot more just before she takes the polygraph, if she agrees to do it at all. After all, she probably knows all she has to do is be beautiful again and all this unpleasantness will just go away.

There seem to be many people here, who seem to think the worst of Mitt's wife and seem to think he is incapable of thinking for himself.

It is confusing enough the way it is.

Before jumping to conclusions about the nature of the wife or of Mitt himself, let's consider:

- Mitt has known his wife for 20+ years. Allthough there were times he had a view of her that was too rosey, it is virtually impossible to give of a false image of yourself for 20 years, without the real you showing through the cracks. We do not expect anyone to be perfect either. I know I am not. Mitt has been rudely awakened of any pink glasses since and has been thinking back hard since then.
- Taking a lie detector test (although not 100% reliable) certainly seems a good idea in this case, to gain some perspective. If the wife knows this a few days beforehand, it is not going to falsify the results, but gives her the opportunity to think hard if there is anything she might have omitted, that she wants to spill beforehand. Up until that day, any speculations about if she is sincere or not, are just that. Speculations.
- There have been many betrayed spouses here, painting the picture of how irrealistic the thinking of their wayward were during the fog. We have also read the stories of waywards, coming here and sincerely wanting to turn themselves around, although from an outward perspective, they were deep in the fog.

Only time can tell if Mitt's wife has what it takes to turn this around and to stay on track and to make things right as far as she has the power to do so. Only time will tell if they will be able to work and get the marriage that is even better than before, because it is based on total honesty and consideration and understanding of the needs of the two people involved.

God bless,

Happyheart

Wow a lot to respond to First of all I do not think I have an idealized view of my wife But I can see how people would've thought that from way I Spoke Of her on this site I was just trying to get across that I thought things were going great Between us And if not for me finding those text messages I would never have known The affair even happened but My wife has always had a selfish streak in her and I've always been well aware of that but I would never have thought she would have sex with FBF and that has really changed my view of her but I'm willing to give it another try based on the fact I love her and truly believe she is sorry and realizes it was a mistake and the wrong thing to do but I still struggle with the fact that she might do it again she said she would miss but I can't be sure at least not yet.


But I do believe she's sorry and is willing to do anything to make it up to me we spoke yesterday and she told me to just think of anything I might need to make this easier and she will do it and I told her when things was that I needed to see her make an effort To show remorse And shame for what she's done but at the same time I'm having a hard time with this because things were not bad before the affair I read on this site that so many people go through Affairs were In unhappy marriages to an extent where one of the people In the relationship was unhappy she says she was very happy and her affair had nothing to do with me and what I was doing or not Doing and I struggle with that because if I was to nothing wrong what's to stop her from doing it again I read books on affairs and I read this site but I'm finding it hard to relate to some of it because it seems that in almost every affair someone was unhappy beforehand what do you do when you have a spouse who says you were doing nothing wrong before the affair.






I've been investigating trying to find proof of more affairs but I have not found any I will keep looking but I'm fairly certain this was her only affair and as for testing the other kids I have already brought this up with her and she says she's fine with it and for me to do anything I need to feel safe again and I do think you're right about the post nuptial agreement I'm going to set appointment with my attorney and talk to him about it But I don't think it's a big concern I have accepted my other child as mine and want her in my life whether my wife and I stay together or not but if I did get her to sign on it would make any future divorce a lot easier if in all other financial aspects so it is something to look into.



americajin

Something yousaid really bothered me and I want to respond to that directly You say it was like I was asking my wife's permission for divorce I could not disagree more I came to this site for one reason originally and that was to help convince my wife that it was over and I only did that because of her crazy actions go back and read my earlier posts she was not Taking the divorce well and was doing some very crazy things and when i originally left i could not have cared less about what my wife wanted.

OldMitt,

You said your wife asked you what you will need to help reconcile. You have previously stated that she says whatever you need she will do.

She is the cheater - she needs to do the heavy lifting here. Being remorseful, while a good sign, are just words. Actions are needed. She should not only ask what you need - she should be proactive in working with you in coming up with a plan.

You mentioned that she surprised you with books on infidelity and finding a marriage counselor. Well, thats good. But hasn't she learned anything in that material, that she should not be acting like "whatever you want, I'll do" ? You two have to work together in this craziness.

In addition to marriage counseling, she needs serious individual counseling to help her understand how sick she was for doing what she did. You already know part of the answer as to why she cheated on you - because she wanted to. Here are a few other parts to that answer:
She got satisfaction from lying, manipulating and betraying you. She got satisfaction from carrying another man's child (no birth control with this guy)
Too make her even more twisted, she got satisfaction from doing it with your "best friend".

These are only some of the issues that she needs to address in counseling. Has she told the other children and family about what she did? I know you probably told them, but its important to have them hear it from her.

Dizzle makes the same point. MC means nothing if she doesn't go to IC and find out how she could do all those horrible things. You keep talking like what she is doing is addressing what she had inside to let her do it. But shes not. It appears that she is going through the motions. I would demand she get in IC and delve into how she could do this.

I might counsel with Steve H. before endorsing counseling.
It seems that my H's IC can write excuses galore for his behavior. This has added a whole new level of issues on a bad marriage.

In my case, my H's counseling is very anti MB, (tho, he is sure he is doing what is best for him by putting himself FIRST.)

While he is off being the "victim" in co-dependant land, (!?!)
I can only be patient. I read MB, do MB things. Very hard under these circumstance.

I guess when/if I get tired of self serving behavior, I can go. I can always get divorced, I am married to him now, and this is the times to try to save it.

Just try to be careful about the IC.

Oldmittens, your wife did this because she allowed another man to meet her emotional needs. Once she was hooked, the adultery became an addiction. Dr. Harley states that delving into one's past is not needed to discover how/why this could happen. We are all wired to have an affair, and extraordinary precautions should be a part of all marriages to protect that sacred relationship. Not everyone has to be in an unhappy marriage to commit adultery. It only takes weak boundaries with the opposite sex.

Adulterers don't necessarily take "pleasure" or satisfaction in hurting those around them to get their fix, anymore than any other addict takes pleasure in hurting others to get what they want. They do it because they want something, most often giving little thought to the consequences. When I asked my FWH what he was thinking when he made decisions regarding his adultery, he said he wasn't thinking at all. That's what independent behavior is all about--making decisions as though the other spouse does not exist. Once the fog is gone, the thinking is much clearer.

As for not using any protection, most adulterers don't do that either. I don't know why, but it's part of the stupidity that goes on during adultery. Many waywards have either become pregnant or contracted diseases who ought to have known better. All part of the silly irrational thinking of fogginess. Once the fogs lifts, most waywards are horrified to realize all the damage they have caused and are ashamed of their stupid thinking.

While a good marriage counselor may be of some benefit, they have a high failure rate (84%) and have a higher divorce rate than average. The best way to get back on track is to sign up for the Online Seminar. Okay, it's a thousand dollars, but it's about the best thousand you could spend in getting your marriage back where it needs to be.

Be prepared for a wide swing of emotions over the next year or so. The vets here on this board are very helpful, so come here whenever you need to vent and get your thoughts straightened out.

Feelings follow actions. Your wife is "going through the motions?" Well, that's a good start. She needs to protect you and your marriage by making sure all extraordinary precautions are in place and followed meticulously. Each of you needs to start building back the romantic love in your marriage by meeting each others emotional needs. Actions. And feelings follow actions. Give yourselves 20 plus hours a week to meet each others emotional needs.

My H is a serial cheater too. My recomendation is to avoid MC and IC UNLESS you can find a MC/IC that uses Marriage Builders principles. Ask the MC/IC about their views prior to making an appointment. Even one appointment with a bad MC/IC will damage your marriage even further. Be careful.

If you cannot find a MC/IC that uses MB principles, I suggest you make an appointment with Steve Harley on this website.

Your WW can change, but she will need to stick to the narrow path of the Marriage Builders program. Make it a condition for staying in the marriage.

mitts' WW doesn't need to waste a cent of their money on an IC. She had the affair because she had poor boundaries around men. She had the A with mitts' best friend because he was available and met some her of needs.

There you go, mitts. No charge. I would suggest you work with the Marriage Builder online program for counselling and guidance that actually addresses the nuts and bolts of repairing your marriage. Don't waste your precious time on navel-gazing with some counselor who is more than likely clueless on how to save a marriage.

Wow you of all seem to have hit the nail on the head On the why she had the affair as she explained to me she did it cause she was bored and wanted some excitement she thought there'd be no harm in it because I would never find out that's exactly why she picked FBF because she thought "never in a million years Would he tell me"
So she thought to herself i will have a little fun nobody will get hurt And i will have a great experience to look back on She says That it was was fun at first thrilling and that she got off on the sneaking around and the forbidden nature of it all but that soon went away and all she said she felt was guilt in the end.


I should explain it's actually more like two affairs At least that's how she puts it she says the first one Which is the one where the majority of sex actually happened about 80% of it Started at a party for a friend of all of ours we had all been drinking and her and the FBF Have been Laughing and Flirting together all night and drinking quite a bit together I did not mind at the time because they always joked around together if I had known then what I know but you can't change the past just have to live with the present but I'm getting off the subject here after the party we all got a taxi back to my wife and I's House I pretty much passed out after we got in and that left the two of them to talk And as my wife tells it there wasn't much beating around the bush FBF told her That he was attracted to her for years and always fantasized about her and she told him the same and she said we could do it once no one would have to know And I know the FBF and I'm sure He was all for this so they did it right there in the living room and my wife told me that she felt no guilt about it they didn't speak for a week after that Then they finally met up at a restaurant to discuss it and as she puts it they came up with an agreement for no strings Attached casual sex and that's pretty much what went down for the next six months apparently what changed is that the guilt got to her every time they had sex the second she was alone she would break down and cry she said the first few times are great guilt free and wonderful but then it just hit her like a ton of bricks the enormity of everything she had done also FBF was putting more pressure on her wanting to spend more and more time with her their agreement was once a week Maybe twice if she was in the mood from what I can tell she was very much in control of when They had sex She was also six months pregnant when she ended the affair and said that she wanted to focus on her family and thought that the OC would be our new beginning( also there've been some people saying about her having unprotected sex she says that they only had unprotected sex once and that was the first time they had sex And I'm pretty sure this is true I've gone through the dates And the OC was conceived right around First time they had sex)



After she ended it she says things pretty much went back to normal for the next few months they would be friendly And they both agreed that I would never know. It stayed this way for about 11 1/2 months till about October of 2010 she says that he was always hinting will never come out and say that he wanted starting back up again then one day he calls her out of the blue and tells her that they need to talk it's very important When she gets there he gets into how what she's doing is unfair to him and that he loves her and misses her and that there's no reason that they shouldn't start up the affair again that I'll never find out so no one will get hurt she says no and he gets angry she says he grabbed her and they got into a scuffle that she slapped him and then he kissed her and she kissed back (I'll never understand it) after that incident he stepped it up calling her almost every day pressuring her after a few months of this in her refusing to have sex with him again he starts saying that if she doesn't have sex with him he will tell me all about the affair and make it out that she was the aggressor and said that by the time he's done everyone will hate her and he and I will still be friends she caves and they start the affair again for another two months until finally she calls his bluff and ends it for good that was In April of this year she says they came to an agreement that they would never be alone together again and that they both swore to never tell me. Months later I borrow my wife's iPhone because I want to get The name of an app that I want for my phone and I happen to come across a text from FBF that says "I'll always treasure the passion we shared together" So I Plug-in or phone to our computer and get the backup off of iTunes and in 15 min. I'm reading months and months worth of texts And you all know the rest of the story

Have a great day today had dinner with my in-laws it was awkward at first but they were great the really good people my mother-in-law took me aside and said that everyone supports me and are also proud of me she got Teary-eyed so I gave her a hug and she hugged me back it was a very long I'm very much needed it My wife continues to show remorse and says she's willing to do anything I need she has agreed to see a therapist not just for the affair but for how she acted after D-Day which is something I very much think she needs. I also want to ask everyone here how long after you agreed to reconcile before you started having sex again My wife Really wants to have sex again but i feel that were not ready Or should i say that I'm not ready I just wanted to get everyone's opinion on when is the best time or is it good or bad that were not having sex already.

We waited until the std report came back from the doctor. Doing some of the things we did took longer though. I had lots of triggers to overcome

cv

Do not have sex until you are ready. Do not let her pressure or manipulate you in this regard. What about a post nup and removing yourself as the father. Did you decide anything on that?

Oldmitt,

I'd be very wary of believing that she "felt guilty" after having sex with this guy. To me, it sounds like a line of bull to try to make you feel a little bit better. I just don't buy it.

You refer to her showing remorse (which is good) - what is she doing? And how are your children handling everything? I assume they know.

And kudos to you for not having sex before you're ready. If your wife is really pushing it, then she isn't respecting the healing process you need to go through.

The SOONER the better, Mitt. [make sure she does not have STDs though] The FASTER you throw yourself into recovery, the faster you will recover. And right now is a critical time in your marriage. In order for your marriage to recover, you need to start working NOW to rebuild the romantic love in your marriage. The way to do that is to sit down and schedule 20+ hours of undivided attention meeting these top 4 intimate emotional needs:

conversation
affection
recreational companionship
sexual fulfillment

This program does not work without that step. Rather than have her go to therapy, I would strongly suggest you put all your energy in recovering your marriage, because having no plan is a plan to FAIL. Her going to therapy is a distraction from your problems and won't help your marriage.

Most marriages do not recover from adultery. They limp along in a crippled state of the pre-affair marriage and are more vulnerable to an affair AFTER than before. So, if you are serious about staying married, I would dive right into the recovery plan NOW. Get Surviving an Affair and the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love. Those books will outline the program of recovery. Harley goes over it in this article:

Requirements for Recovery from an Affair

This is a distraction from the real problem. We can tell him for FREE why she had the affair: she has poor boundaries around men. NEXT!

here

ITA...

I truly believe that what saved our marriage was me continually maintaining SF during the A. She was pulling away and I was running hard after her, forcing in a way, her to be close to me. I would turn every talk into talks about how I loved her, wanted her, needed her.

I would encourage her that I would always love her.

We had std testing done immediately and only went a week or 2 without sf, if I remember right.

We also did something else. We both committed to sleeping in the same bed no matter how angry or hurt we were after DDay. We forced ourselves to be near each other, in each others faces... we smothered each other. In retrospect, we forced ourselves to be close and the closeness paid off.

CV

Please help this poster with Marriage Builders concepts. I see many personal philosophies being posted instead. If you can help this poster with Marriage Builders concepts, then feel free to post. If not, then we ask that you refrain from posting. Please don't disrupt this thread with conflicting advice that has nothing to with Marriage Builders. That is not fair to the OP.

Thank you, Fireproof

Mitt,

The "right" time to resume sex is when you feel comfortable having sex with your wife again. I do not think it is necessary to view your wife's desire to have sex with you as suspicious or manipulative. IMO, it is one way in which she can express her love for you and her continued desire for you. When you feel that you can reciprocate, that will be your "right" time.

As long as your WW continues to express remorse, is taking extraordinary precautions to protect your marriage and affair proof it, and is meeting your emotional needs, accept these gestures of just compensation.

Of course she needs to be open, honest, and transparent in all her actions, too. Yes, you need to be observant of her actions, but that does NOT mean you need to be suspicious of them. If something sets off an internal alarm in you, address it immediately and directly.

I'm glad your family dinner was such a success. Keep building on the positives.

No. The right time to resume sex is NOW.

No. The right time to resume sex is NOW.

Yeah, but I think right now they're both at work, MB! Awkward!

Excuse the humor, Mitt, but in essence, MB is dead on with her assessment. Sexual activity is a natural function of being in a caring relationship. It is the best way to express admiration for, and attention to, the partner. If you are committed to making this work, and it seems you are, and you are confident in her new commitment to your union, and you are, then waiting does nothing except make the eventual resumption a bit, well....awkward, and forced.

Ummm...long lunch break?

Yep, NG got what I was saying. Don't let your feelings (and you'll have many and varied feelings in the days to come) dictate this portion of your recovery. You need to get in there and kick down that invisible wall that will hinder your intimacy. Post-haste.

I don't know why, but I keep getting this vibe that your W seems kinda nonchalant about the whole situation, despite all the effort she shows to R.

Anyway, as for sex, I agree that it is totaly your call when you feel ready. Do not let her dictate that for you. Hold your ground.

She isn't dictating anything, lonewolf. She would like to have sex with her husband. That's a great thing!

Mitt, Dr. Harley, clinical psychologist and the owner of this site, advocates 20+ hours of undivided attention to your spouse each week as part of recovery from an affair. This time should be spent meeting each other's most important emotional needs. It sounds as though your WW has a need for SF. It may well be a bonding opportunity for both of you.

If you are uncomfortable just jumping into it, the two of you need to talk and agree on how best to meet this need.

I can tell you from a personal standpoint that SF was a huge springboard for the recovery of my own marriage.

What's your story, lonewolf? Have you started your own thread? Why don't you tell us about your sitch? Sounds like you could use some Marriage Builders advice and learn some more about the concepts here.

There are a lot of ways to meet the EN for SF. POJA which ones BOTH of you would feel most comfortable doing tonight, and go from there. I agree that you should stay safe until the STD testing is done, and results are negative.

Mitt,

PLEASE, for the love of all things holy:

Find and use the punctuation keys.

Thanks.

Now that's off my chest.

Anyway!

Mitt,

You and your wife should return to SF when you are ready and your wife is ready, both at the same time.

Not one second before.


There isn't a rule about this - like, you have to have SF within a week or your marriage will collapse. Nope, no rule like that.

People need time to feel comfortable. Some people will need more "physical affection" during the days following d-day, but are completely uninterested in full SF. Others may seek out sexual fulfillment, and experience what is referred to as hysterical bonding, with high-frequency intimacy and closer relationships being experienced than prior to the affair.

There can be a delay with some people, who want to wait quite awhile before returning to SF. They may have "movies" playing in their heads, anxiety about SF with their spouse, or just having feelings of fear or uncertainty about the situation since they still feel uncertain about how they feel about their spouse or how the spouse feels about them. So, they want to WAIT.

Only you know how you feel right now about intimacy with your wife. If you are in doubt about it, then wait! Go with your heart, and don't feel rushed.

SF should be something you want, something treasured, something sure and pleasurable. It should not feel rushed or scary.


So wait for it to be right. You won't be sorry.


SB

oooooookay, he most certainly should not wait. I just want to reiterate, Mitt, that you need to start meeting each other's top 4 intimate needs NOW. [get the STD clearance on the SF first, of course] Not later. Not when you feel comfortable, but NOW. The recovery of your marriage is contingent upon a) affair proofing your marriage and b) restoring the romantic love in your marriage. A PLAN to do both should be instituted NOW if you are serious about recovering your marriage.

Of course none of it will "feel comfortable" at first. Developing new habits never does. But that is what Marriage Builders is all about, doing what you did not do before so you have a romantic, passionate marriage.

I would sit down with her tonight and work out a schedule of undivided attention time. It needs to be 20-25 hours per week spent meeting these top 4 emotional needs:

affection
conversation
recreational companionship
sexual fulfillment

The SOONER you start this, the SOONER you will feel bonded to each other and the FASTER you will fall in love again. The sooner you start, the sooner you will feel comfortable. Not having a plan is a plan to FAIL.

So, please start this NOW, rather than waiting for a feeling to come along. You may be waiting for something that will NEVER come if you have no plan to make that happen. Your marriage is crumbling NOW, so please address the problem NOW.

I just want to add that my husband and I did not "feel comfortable" about doing any of these basic concepts in the beginning. Most couples do not. But a couple does not have to feel comfortable in order to create new habits, they just have to be committed to a plan. Bring the body and the mind will follow. That is how this program works.

After an affair, when the WS is withdrawing, it is real important to implement new habits THEN, so they are ingrained by the time she is through with withdrawal. That new marriage is therefore what replaces the gap left by the affair. Marriages get into trouble when nothing is done to fill that vacuum. Which is why it is important to start SOON so that by the time she sobers up, her emotions are influenced by the new behaviors, hence a romantic marriage.

Mel's comment was worth repeating:

Please listen to Mel about this, Mitt. Your emotions are going to be all over the place in the beginning. Don't wait for them to settle down - meeting needs is a critical part of the settling down and healing process. You want to establish that UP FRONT. Don't wait until you're 'ready' or anything like that - it's going to be a while before your emotions are approaching anything resembling 'normal' where you might 'normally' say "Okay, I'm ready to have SF." Don't wait for that!

Caveat: Of course, you need to wait for the STD tests to come back to know she didn't pick anything up. And, if I may be delicate, there are certain acts that you'll want to avoid until then. But there are also many others that are perfectly fine to engage in until then.

I knew someone would say something sooner or later and I'm sorry about this. but I broke my hand about a month ago and I've been using voice to text software to write all my posts. And you have to say every punctuation and that's hard to get used to. Dr. says my hand should be healed in another couple weeks so if you could all bear with me.


Another day on the roller coaster but I'm getting better at dealing with triggers. I find when I can't stop thinking about it. I go out into my backyard and take 10 deep breaths And tell myself you can do this. I feel it's very much in mind over matter thing but damn those "movies" are hard to deal with. But my wife has really been there for me.She has been showing remorse and studying the marriage builders concepts. And has read surviving an affair and is reading his meets her needs now. She Also has been calling me four times a day every day to make sure I know where she is. and to tell me how much she loves me and how sorry she is. She has said that She had an STD test after she ended It with him last time but she will go out and Get another one tomorrow. She says that she is committed to doing anything I ask to make things better. she says that she understands it will take a long time but that she is willing To do whatever it takes to earn my trust And forgiveness.







My wife and I spoke about it and she feels that we should take a trip together alone for a Week to get the spark going again. And I think she's right I think some time alone can be the best solution. I think MelodyLane is right And I must say I do miss our sex life. (It was great before and during The affair)And I do want to be intimate with my wife again we do still kiss and hold hands still not often Though. I told her I would think about it. and I do think it's a good idea but I think now I'm going to tell her I want to wait until we get the results from the STD test before we go and definitely before we have sex again.

When do you expect these? I got mine back pretty quickly. I just don't want you waiting any longer than necessary.

And I'd like to see you get back to the business of hand-holding and other gestures of affection. Don't get out of that habit.

Bummer, mitt! I didn't want to say anything, but it was getting pretty tough to read your posts. The run-on sentences were making me dizzy, and I found myself starting to skip paragraphs. You don't want posters skipping your paragraphs, so I would say you should get those periods in there somehow. Sorry! Hope your hand is better soon! (I guess you'll have to hold hands with the other one )

I broke my hand about a month ago...

Punching what? pray tell.

You are absolutely RIGHT. That is an excellent plan.

Did she already have an STD test?

Oldmitt,

Now that you're going to attempt to Reconcile, you're getting some solid advice from people here. I want to add one thing: now that everything is known, it doesn't necessarily mean its completely over.

I highly reccomend keeping a keylogger on your home computer. Transparency (email, FB passwords, etc) works for the accounts you know about.

Also, I highly recommend attaching a Voice Activated Recorder with velcro to underneath her car seat. Trust but verify. This could have gone deep underground.

Nothing violent my daughter slammed the car door on my and by accident and it shattered several bones in the hand.






Yesterday my wife and I both went and got tested for STDs. We should get the results back Monday. We also discussed the trip she wants to take and we have decided to a take a trip to Italy For a week starting this Wednesday. I said we should wait until the test results come back before we plan anything. But she says she is 100% certain that she has no STDs but that She understands that I need peace of mind. she has also asked that while were on the trip we not discuss the affair. She says we need to focus on getting back our intimacy. And that this has nothing to do with her trying to avoid talking about the affair. She has told me that anytime I need to discuss anything about it I should feel free. That she knows that I need to understand why she did it and how she could do this to me. and she's committed to showing me that he meant nothing to her and that it was just a midlife crisis. I told her I have my doubts that it was just a midlife crisis,I have asked her if she had any feelings for him at any point. and she says no it was just "fun" And at no time Did she even consider leaving me for him. and that the only feeling she ever had during the affair were guilt and shame.







I completely agree with you And I have already put a keylogger on my computer and I have the passwords to her e-mail accounts her banking passwords and Facebook password. We've also gone through her Facebook and removed all her male friends. She has told me that she will have no more male friends. I don't know if that's necessary but for now it makes me feel better. As for voice activated recorder I think that's a good idea I'm going to get One. Right now it's been very easy to keep track of her because she's Been laid off from her job for about a month now. She got let go because of her Erratic behavior which is something I actually feel a bit guilty about. She tells me not to and that it was all her fault she chose to have an affair and she says that she will have to live with the consequences. And I think she is right and I told her So.



PS I just realized looking back over my posts I haven't said this enough but thank you to everyone who's posted You've all given me great advice and I appreciate it. This site has been a tremendous source of advice and comfort and i credited with saving our marriage. I don't think i could've taken her back if i had not come here and read the stories of sIso many people here who've gone through The same thing I'm going through and in some cases actually much much worse and still be able to reconcile. I realize that actually having a remorseful wife Is a rare thing and that I owe it to my family to try my damnedest to save this marriage.

Your wife is right that you need to stop talking about the affair, that is after all of your questions have been answered. It doesn't mean that you won't still be triggered.

Have you read SAA, or any of the articles about how to recover?

We have read both surviving an affair his needs her needs and We have been doing several of the questionnaires over the past few days. as well my wife is in IC and she is on the site daily reading articles as well as other people's posts trying to understand what Her part is to get this marriage back on track.

Oldmitt,

Its good that your wife is actively involved in reading those titles, and IC is a very good step. If I recall correctly, she started reading books and seeking help before you even talkd about reconciling.

However, I do think her reading Marriagebuilder forums or other forums can be a double-edged sword. If she is actively seeking to rebuild, thats good. If she is continuing the affair, she can pick up on techniques to bust a cheating spouse to drive her affair deep underground. Be cautious, trust but verify (when you get to the point of trust during reconciling)

Stay strong my man!

I concur with your wife about not discussing the affair. If you feel that you can't contain the questions or discussing the affair, bring along a journal to write in. It will give you an outlet.

When your WW slept with OM she also 'slept' with every partner he has ever had. AND every partner those partners have had, and so on. Unless she has the dr's reports from every one of these people there is NO WAY she can be sure that she is clean without being tested. None. Zero.

This is a good idea. Get your questions answered and then don't talk about it. Make the holiday your "No Questions" holiday.

If having an affair is a mid-life crisis I guess all the 30-year olds who come here are having a, what? A pre-mid-life crisis? The sheer number of people of all ages who come to this site for help destroys the 'mid-life crisis' theory.

Your WW had an affair because she had poor boundaries around men and found an opportunity. To try to slap a label on the event removes her responsibility for it and makes it sound like something she couldn't prevent. This is dangerous thinking that can lead to other affairs. She needs to understand the importance of firm boundaries and keeping EPs to help prevent this from happening again.

yes she says she had an STD test when she ended the affair. But that she understands that I need Her to get another one for peace of mind.





I couldn't agree with you more i think the whole midlife crisis thing is nothing more than pop psychology.and when we were discussing it I told her I thought that was just her trying to make excuses. And that the real reason she had affair was that she was selfish and wanted to get laid. and when I brought up that she was just using a midlife crisis as an excuse she broke down crying screaming she was sorry and nothing more than a Wh@$e. She went on to say that she knows what she did was selfish and cruel and that she knows there's nothing she can do to make it up to me but all she wants is to spend the rest of her life trying. She's having a hard time understanding why she did it she told me that the midlife crisis theory is the only one that makes sense to her because She was very happy with our marriage. and when she thinks back to the affair and The way she was thinking at the time she thinks a midlife crisis makes the most sense.I told her I did not agree and I thought that there was no deep reason behind the affair other than someone who just wanted To do what they want and not suffer the consequences She did not disagree.


My wife and I also discussed the post Nuptial idea she told me that if it would Make things easier for me she would go and do it. That she is committed to making this up to me and will do whatever she can to make this easier for me and show that she Loves me and is 100% committed to me. so I spoke with my lawyer on Sunday and he told me it would be simpler in our case for me to divorce my wife and simply remarry her later if our reconciliation is successful. I told my wife What he said and she freaked out screaming that I was just using this as an excuse to dump her. I told her that I didn't need an excuse to dump her that she'd given me all the excuses I was ever going to need. But that if it made her uncomfortable we can go the Postnuptial route instead of the divorce route. After a lot of crying and arguing until three in the morning we came to an agreement that were going to go through with the divorce. We are not going to break up and we're still going to reconcile this is just to give me peace of mind to make sure I'm staying for the right reasons and not out of fear. So We will move forward with the divorce after we get back from our vacation. and if everything goes right with the reconciliation We will just go to Courthouse and get remarried.

That's a good idea. Then you can do a pre-nup before you get married again. Makes sense.

You can do a post-nuptial agreement without the expense of going through a divorce. A divorce is not going to help the marriage, except maybe make your attorney some extra bucks.

This is not MB thinking. Here you go again, believing a divorce is just a simple step to "pooh pooh" away.

Maybe you should read the divorce boards if you need a better idea of what a divorce is really like.

I promise you, it is not as simple as "We will skip down to the courthouse Monday, and if things work out, we will re- marry next Easter".

And you need to do this why? You want to be sure you are staying for the right reasons? Why would a grown man need a divorce agreement to let you know that?

A divorce will not give you any assurances nor control over your wife, well not the type of control that is positive for a M.

Not MB, not very marriage smart. What are you going to tell your children? Dad can't figure out what he wants to do, so to give him an easy exit from this family, (if he choses he is there for "not the right reasons") he is going to make a pre emptive divorce?

Sounds like you are having a desire to simply punish your WW.

Good Luck with that. I think you would be better served by using MB philosophies,

P.S. My mother was a small town "bookie" for the local Atty for 25 years.
Many divorces start out "friendly". 99.5% of the time, they do not end up that way.

Nothing you want to mess with, if you can help it. But it just comes down to how you view marriage/vows.

Your WW did not take them seriously, and right now, I don't feel like you are.

Dude, it will not be the same post divorce, there are no "do/start overs" with a second marriage, and resentment is not a good basis to work on your family.

Have you read the renters, buyers and feeloaders article by Dr.H?

Your M used to be a buyers agreement, now you want a rental contract.

Do the post nup , divorce is the ultimate end no matter what is said.

OldMittens - time to get yourself a different lawyer, because that is the most asinine piece of advice I've ever seen.

You get a divorce when you want to end the marriage permanently, which is what I would do. However, since you have pretty much made up your mind that you want to give it another go with your wife, a post-nuptual agreement will protect you if it does come to divorce later. It will be a LOT easier for you to get your wife to agree to the terms of the post-nup than it will be if you get divorced. You file for divorce, she gets a lawyer, and you get a first hand look at what the word adversarial means.

A post nup acknowledging that the OC is not your child and that you and your wife agree that you will not be responsible for child support for the OC and that you agree to 50-50 custody of your biological children in the event of a divorce would probably meet any scrutiny by the court.

Are post-nuptials not as ironclad as prenuptials?

Oldmitt,

Good for you for not buying her sh*t about the mid-life crisis. You had it right: she was selfish and didn't want to get caught (Hope you still dont buy her feeling guilty during the A)

But I'd advise finding a new lawyer. The post-nup is a good idea, this divorce stuff is off. As others said, not part of the MB program and just counter-productive in general. Seek a new lawyer, get the post-nup done, and get to reconciling! (if thats what you still want, of course)

Dude, I think this is the first case we've had where the decision to divorce was POJA'd!

I would not recommend taking this easy out!

I wouldnt call if POJA if the wife was crying her eyes out.

That, and a divorce is not going to help recovery.

All a D will help is the lawyer get rich off of you. That, and you still can get a D if recovery does not work and you will have a post nup to protect you.

Time to find a lawyer that puts his clients best interests first his money clip second.

A person can very well behave in a certain way and at the same time feel guilty about it, without succeeding in stopping it. Especially if it is some kind of addictive behaviour (which affairs by the word of Dr. Harley often are).

Have you never done something like playing a computer game, while you knew in the back of your mind, that you should stop and do more important things? Of course having an affair is in another league, but the same mechanisms apply.

I wouldnt call it POJA if the wife was crying her eyes out.

I was referring to this statement:

But that if it made her uncomfortable we can go the Postnuptial route instead of the divorce route. After a lot of crying and arguing until three in the morning we came to an agreement that were going to go through with the divorce.

This does depend on Mitt being honest about the "we came to an agreement" phrase, but it doesn't change my opinion that this is a BAD plan.

It sows the seeds of impermanence in the relationship, and reeks of adolescent immaturity and indecisiveness.

Mitt, you've gone from "I'll divorce her", to "I'll reconcile with her", to "I'll phuque with her mind, and mess with her emotions!" You're better than that, amigo!

wow I never thought of it that way. The only reason I decided to go the divorce route was because my lawyer said it would be a lot easier. He said all he would have to do is refile and change the reason from irreconcilable differences to adultery. And that it would make it easier for me if we decided not to reconcile at a later date. But I think you're all right if were going to reconcile divorce is not the answer. I do not think that I have a bad lawyer he said it was the best idea because most people do not recover and that If I get the divorce done quick and easy it will save me a lot of trouble later. but I think you're right when you question the we In the decision I think I might have pressured my wife and she might've gotten the impression that this was a dealbreaker. and if she didn't do it i would just leave. (not that i would) She was very much against the divorce idea but said she would do it if it would make me happier.






as for telling people about the divorce especially our children the plan was not to. The plan was to divorce legally stay together and try and reconcile and if we did just get married again at a later date. but I can see how that Wouldn't work and could lead to resentment from my wife. and I do not want to send the wrong message to my kids. They have had a very hard time because of all this watching their mother acting the way she was I think really scared them. They don't like to be left alone with her now and they're always calling me asking me when I'm going to get home from work. That's one of the reasons why I think this vacation is a good idea it will give the kids a little breathing room and a chance To get away from all the craziness that's been our lives as of late. and someone asked a while back do the kids know yes they do know about the affair but not about the OC and that's the way we both want to keep it.






Yeah I think the whole midlife crisis thing was just a way for her to justify it to herself. I struggled for a very long time when I first found out with why but now I don't anymore because I know why because she wanted to she was selfish and she thought she wouldn't get caught. But despite all that I still do Love her very much and still want to reconcile. And as for guilt she herself said that the first few times they did it she did not feel guilty but after a little while the guilt started in and she says it consumed her. And I think I believe her from the e-mails I've read and all the information I've gathered it seems like guilt is the reason she ended the affair and she was the one To end it every time. And from what I can tell after the first affair ended she only started up again because POSFBF threatened to tell me if she didn't. So on my end reconciliation really comes down to if I can accept the fact that my wife nearly destroyed our entire family and put us through all this pain for just a bit of fun.



I think you're all right that divorce is not the answer especially if I don't have POJA with my wife on it. So I'm going to call my lawyer tomorrow and get a postNuptial done up for when we get back from our vacation. I've also been calling around looking for a place to get a polygraph done very hard to find somewhere in my province. Thanks for Listening to a sad man trying to figure out a sad situation your advice is very much appreciated. And To any fellow Canadians happy Thanksgiving

Oldmitt,

Cheaters can get crazy - I find it possible in her fogged mind during the A that she actually believed she was having a crisis - so she could feel a little better about not facing the truth: selfish, didn't want to get caught, etc.

As for the whole guilt thing, it seems that I may have been wrong. You know your wife, not us, so if you detect traces of guilt in their communication, you'd know it far better than anyone here.

I do think that exposure helps kill off the chance that a cheating spouse would continue an affair, although sometimes they are taken deeper underground to continue them. Hopefully the fact that your children and families know about it will keep her on the straight and narrow. Thats a result of shame, guilt, humiliation, etc. from knowing that everyone important in your life knows what you did.

If you decide to go to the post-nup route and not divorce, I highly recommend telling the wife soon. If I were you, I'd explain it as recognizing that the discussed plan wouldn't be helpful to a genuine attempt at reconciliation, HOWEVER, its not a guarantee that you will successfully reconcile. Having a divorce in the process of attempting to reconcile just seems like it would backfire and build resentment, like you said.

Have you two entered marital counseling. You mentioned earlier she is in individual counseling (which is good)

Let's hope NOT. Marriage counseling is destructive to marriages and IC is a distraction from resolving her marriage problems. He doesn't need that at this critical time in his marriage.

no we have not entered marriage counseling and were not going to. After reading what everyone had to say about it here and then doing a little research on my own I have come to the decision that it's not a good idea. And you're right I do need to tell her that I do not want a divorce and that we should do the postnuptial agreement instead i will talk with her in the morning.

That's a relief! A better plan for your marriage would be to spend that money on pedicures or a nice romantic weekend. And then buy Dr Harley's workbook for $11, Five Steps to Romantic Love, and follow the program in there. [or you can email his radio show and get it for free if he answers your question on air! I got most of my books free that way over the years. ]

Glad you are not getting the divorce. I would really hate to see that happen.

and that's the plan I very much want to follow the advice of this site and the marriage builders principles.And we already have our vacation booked we leave for Italy on Wednesday for a week. We already spoke with my wife's mother and she agreed to take the kids for the week so everything is pretty much set at this point all that's left to do is pack.

thanks for your encouragement MelodyLane.

C'monnnn, oldmittens!!

You CAN do this!!

You CAN DO THIS!!!

Thank you for the words of encouragement I think I can to.

Mitt, my friend, very glad to see you're back with the program.

Go on your trip, and reconnect as a married couple. There will be roller-coaster thrills in the months to come, but stay true to the program - UA, O&H, more UA, discover each other's key ENs and devise ways to satisfy them - and you have the chance for a full recovery.

We're here to help. Always.

Mitt, whats the current display of attitude towards her by family and friends? Everyone has a right to be angry, of course, but I'm curious if anyone has really gone off on her and continue to do so.

Since you're attempting to reconcile, there can be acts or words by family or friends bringing the cheating spouse down, to the point where its not constructive at all to the marriage. Cheaters can betray family also, so I get the anger. And sometimes words just come out when the blood is boiling. But if a Betrayed Spouse chooses to work it out, that negativity can hurt from family or friends. Have you experienced any thing like this from anyone?

I know I'm a little late to the discussion but thought I would add my take on the divorce vs. post-nuptial.

First, if there is any chance at R I think a divorce will almost kill it.

Second, I don't think the lawyer was trying to do anything other than give mitt the best LEGAL advice he could. A divorce now, gives mitt the grounds of A, and gives him the best settlement legally (quickest, financial, custody, etc.). If he waits and tries to R, he may lose the ability to D on grounds of the A. The post-nuptial will most likely give him the same (or better) outcome if she has another A, but not if R fails. In this case he would have to file on grounds of irreconcilable differences and wouldn't get the same settlement.

Mitt, I'm glad to hear that you're moving to the post nup and away from the divorce plan. I hear some hope and optimism in your posts as you're on the rollercoaster, that stuff will help keep you strong.

I still hope you are being cautious in dealing with the remorseful wife that Mrs. Oldmittens appears to be. She is already being transparent for electronic communication, which is great. But that only works for the accounts you know of, but I know you'll remain vigilant.

I was going to talk about VARs and a keylogger again, but I remembered that you mentioned it already. Of course, since your wife already knows about this site, she is probably already aware of tools used to bust cheating spouses.

I do think exposure to the family and friends in your case has helped kill any chance that your wife would continue the affair or start a new one, but cheating spouses must not be given the benefit of the doubt. You're doin good man, hang in there!

without a doubt the person most angry with my wife is my youngest daughter she barely speaks to her mother. and when she does it's never anything nice as a matter of fact it's starting to become a real problem. She refuses to listen to anything my wife tells her to do and will argue with Her mother about everything and anything and will only listen to me. My oldest daughter Is distant but not mean to her mother. I think that has more to do with my wife's actions after the Dday then it has to do with the affair itself. When I left the home after the day and I was moving On the divorce path I spoke with both of them about the affair and how it would affect them. And I told them that it changes nothing between us and that while their mother did a bad thing it does not change the fact that she is their mother and that they should love her and respect her.


as for everyone else in the family at first my family were 100% behind me but after my wife nearly had a nervous breakdown(The doctor call them severe anxiety attacks). and was hospitalized for a few days they pretty much turned on me. And sided with her and said that I was overreacting and said very hurtful things. My own mother said that the affair was my own fault and I should be grateful that my wife is willing to have me back. And at this point my parents and I don't really speak we have maybe spoken twice since my wife left the hospital. As for my sisters they have been very supportive of our attempt at reconciliation they did call me stubborn when I was going to divorce route but they did not say the kind of things that my parents said so we are still speaking. As for my wife's family all I can say is I wish my own family Behaved like them they have been nothing but supportive of me since they learned of the affair. and have told my wife repeatedly that she be lucky if I took her back and they were the only ones that did not blame me for my wife's Near nervous breakdown.






I have a key logger on her computer already and I tried to find a VAR but they do not sell Them at any store That I could find. so I had to order one online still another four days for delivery So I will have to put it in her car when we get back from our vacation. I also have the meeting with My lawyer when we get back. So we Start drawing up the paperwork on a postnuptial agreement.

Oldmitt,

I'm sorry to hear that your own family caused problems. That stuff about being stubborn, or its your fault and you would be lucky SHE takes you back - absolutely nuts! They fail to realize that you didnt cause her to go to the hospital for anxiety attacks, rather it was the exposure and blowing up of her fantasy world that caused it. She didn't get her way anymore, and it upset her. Throw in the harsh reality of destroying her family and boom - panic attack.

The benefit of truth - your wife can't blameshift on you or try to justify it to her family or yours. Doesn't sound like she is doing it now, anyway. I'm glad to hear that your in-laws are supprting you.

Hopefully your children will see and be influenced from your decision to take your wife back and work on rebuilding. And hopefully her IC will help in her behavior around the children, from the issues she has had after DDay. How did she take the news that you are not going to follow through on the divorce plan? I imagine she was quite happy and thankful in order to follow through on a healthy plan for recovery.

My wife says and I agree that her panic attack (and it was a bad one) was because I left and would not speak to her. (The affair itself had ended six months before I found out). And she was afraid that i would Divorce her and never speak to her again. she says that after She left the hospital she started to think and she came to the realization that she can't act this way and that all she can do is offer to spend the rest of her life trying to make it up to me and let me decide. I spoke to her and pretty much quoted you verbatim about the panic attack being because of her "fantasy world" getting blown up and she says That might have something to do with it but that the thought of not spending the rest of her life with me is what terrified her the most. As for the kids there's not much I can do other than tell them that while the mother did a bad thing She is still a good person deserving of love and that whatever happens between me and her she's the only mothIer they will ever have and they should love her anyway. when i told her that I think we should go for PN (Post nuptial) instead of the divorce She took my hand and very seriously said "you will not regret this I'm going to dedicate the rest of my life to giving you Happiness and pleasure to making sure you know How much i love you and how sorry I am for betraying you"


DizzleTelevizzle You seemed to have some insight into all of this if you don't mind me asking are you a BS and if so did you reconcile.





my wife and I leave tomorrow morning for Italy for a week. We plan on using this time to try and reconnect and to see if we still have spark in her marriage. I am very much looking forward to the trip but am a bit nervous as we plan on having sex and we have not done that since before D-Day. I very much want to start having sex again but I haven't found my wife very attractive since i discovered the affair. is it normal to not find your wife attractive after discovery and if so should I just pushed to the back of my mind and fake it till I make it? My wife had her first session with IC And the counselor told her that we should start having sex as soon as possible that it's very important for our relationship That we create as much intimacy as possible.

No, I'm not a BS.

Short version: I found MB after trying to help my best friend going through extremely bad marital problems. I felt that MB had the best chance for him to work on things, I checked out the boards, but he wouldn't try. Can't lead a horse to water.

I stuck around. My entire life has been surrounded by imploding marriages for all sorts of reasons, so MB taught me in hindsight lots of things.

Your story is eerily similar to a very good friend of mine who had this happen. I saw lots of mistakes in that whole ordeal, thought I could help.

I caution you on the trip: UA is good, its one of the best principles of MB. However, don't have too many expectations for this one week. Its a beginning - there is still much work to do. Maintain UA. And the sex thing, I assume you got STD tests back all clear?

The attraction issue- thats understandable. I'd say fake it til ya make it - but try to be as natural as you can. Planning sex can sound very routine and boring, and I know you didn't mean it the way I'm saying it. But it can be a slippery slope, so try to approach it as naturally as you can, and view it as the ultimate opportunity to begin reconnecting.

Unfortunately, life awaits you when you return. I imagin that the OM will attempt to contact her again. Its possible and likely that they atleast discussed the possibility that the OC is his child. She may say she didn't, but those two were in an affair for two years, its extremely unlikely didnt atleast bring it up. Now that he has nothing to lose, he may try to play that card of "it could be mine!".

It really sounds like she is trying to turn things around. If you need references to what a remorseful cheating spouse sounds and ACTS like, check out threads by MikeStillSmiling, WulffpackGirl, or CelticVoyager. Mrs. Oldmittens needs to show through actions, not words.

And one thing I've seen first hand (unfortunately) never underestimate what a cheater is capable of - be wary that SHE may restart contact.

We got back yesterday from a trip and it was amazing my wife and I had a great time I've always wanted to go to Italy and it was not a disappointment. My wife was amazing on the trip she had planned out a six-day tour of basically the entire country we got to see Rome,Naples,Venice,Milan, basically everything A Roman history buff like me would want to see. I had a lot of triggers on the trip Especially when I saw my wife talking to any other man be that the busboy for the tour guide. but my wife has been very supportive and willing to do whatever I need Be that keeping her distance for A little while OR listening to me scream about FBF. she says and has been following through so far that she will do anything I ask to show how sorry she is and how much she loves me and will spend the rest of her life thinking of new and better ways to show her love for me. But I still struggle with wanting to feel close with her There are times when we are very close and I feel like we were going to make it But at the drop of a hat that can change and I feel like I should just Leave and start a new life.

Another Roman history man! Excellent! I envy you sir, never been to Italy myself...

Since you've decided to try reconciliation, and if you're mind is scrambling, let me tell you this story you may already know:

Tiberius is married to Vipsania. Augustus needs Julia, a widow, to be married. So, he forces Tiberius to divorce Vipsania in order to marry Julia. Tiberius is crushed, but does as he is told. Afterwards, whenever he sees Vipsania, he is heartbroken, and tears up. Aides are forced to keep them apart so the future emperor does not cry.

A few thousand years later, here you are. As the rollercoaster goes up and down, you have the choice, which Tiberius did not. You've chosen to follow the plan here, in an effort to rebuild. Try keeping that in mind when you hit a dip - what is keeping you there. Hopefully, its the idea of a future with a rededicated wife committed to providing YOU with a healthy and happy future.It can be done! If I recall correctly, when you first brought up reconciliation, she told you about her research into infidelity and recovery. I'd take that as a good sign, others being her willingness to be transparent, no contact, follow the MB plan. Only you can determine if she is genuine in all this, but I sense that there is hope in your post, which is good!

Tiberius and Vipsania I never thought of it like that well said sir. And thank you for the words of encouragement

Its not exactly an easy fit, I never read of Vipsania having an affair on Tib, but my focus was on the option of having a choice.Reading your Roman history comment made it pop into my head. I'm glad to hear you had a good time on va-kay with the wife.Good way to start some new memories!

yeah right it is an uneasy fit but the story of Tiberius has always been one I've enjoyed its always struck me as kind of sad his mother marries the Emperor and he's taken away from his Home dad and forced call on you man father. And to top it all off he has to deal with the stresses of being the future Emperor.
And yes we had a great time and whether we stay together not I will never forget this trip.

I'm having trouble feeling attracted to my wife. We are having sex and it's great physically but I don't feel an emotional connection to her and was hoping to find out if that will hurt our recovery and if it's healthy. I spoke to my wife about it and it Really upsets her to hear me say that. I tell her that it is not that I don't find her attractive it's just every time we have sex I think of her and the OM And it's like it sucks all the joy out of Our lovemaking. So I thought I'd start This new thread to see if anyone else had this problem and how they've gotten past it I could really use some help as I think it will hurt our recovery.

Yes.

I still have mental movies, but not as often. Maybe this is TMI: @ 1-2 times out of ten I may have 'trouble' if you know what I mean. (after dday, it was SHE who was having trouble connecting with me in that way).

The difference now? We do not give up on each other if it's not perfect...our SF simply means spending more time together, in various ways, until, well, our SF is over.

And odd as this may sound being a BS -- I have found the most effective way to get through most of this is to concentrate that much harder on meeting HER ENs.

Thanks.

Not odd at all. We don't just do good things for those we like, we begin to like those for whom we do good things.

Its called the Benjamin Franklin Effect.

My wife and I are having a disagreement and I was hoping I could get some advice here. It seems like were having this disagreement ever since we decided to reconcile. She keeps saying that her affair has nothing to do with me And happened because she was afraid of getting old and wanted to recapture her youth. I find this hard to believe and feel that there must have been something wrong with our relationship or some EN one of us was not meeting for her to go out and do this. She says no that our relationship was great and that it was just a midlife crisis and that I make her very happy and she loves me very much. The question I have is do people have affairs without their being something wrong in the relationship from what I've read on this website that doesn't seem to be the case most people seem to have affairs when their marriage hits a rough spot and I was hoping I hear from some people who had affairs or their spouse had an affair and the wayward spouse said there was nothing wrong with the relationship.

Anyone is susceptible to an affair no matter how good the marriage, it is the boundaries and precautions taken that prevent an affair.

I would assume you are are missing some EN's for your wife even though she she says not. Read the book "his needs her needs" for pointers and perhaps try texting your wife at least once a day, use words that show you love her or flirt with her. If you not into texting, google for examples , don't go overboarand observe if there is a reaction on her side.

1.
It actually is hard for a woman to age. You can't do much about it (if you don't want to end up looking like a freak), but you notice that all women who are presented to be attractive in the media are younger than you. Well, except the one who is advertising for incontinence diapers, that is. And it is harder for a woman, if she has always been more than averagely attractive, because if people approach you because of your looks and treat you better than others, you become to think of this as normal. Until the day that you notice, that men are now opening doors for girls, that are your daughters age and staring at them while pretending to listen to what they say. And they don't see, really see you anymore. And you are starting to ask yourself if and how long you are still attractive. And along comes a man, who looks you in the eye and listens to every word you say and seems to find you attractive. You will have gained again, what you believed to be lost (you must be still hot ;-). And this may be the last time a mans was mesmerized by you, because you are approaching 40...

2.
Some people actually crave excitement in their lives. It is not listed among the 10 most common emotional needs, but Dr. Harley says in his book, that you can add your own needs, that you need for your spouse to provide. Maybe no the bungee-jump-kind of excitement, but probably more the I-can't-keep-my-hands-off-you-excitement.

3.
If you told her, that you have trouble finding her attractive, that must have really hit her hard. Because that is exactly the need the other man was probably meeting beautifully. I do not think it was just about sex. The panic about approachig 40 rather points at the problem I laid out under (1). You can still have sex with a hoast of people when you approach 70! And 70-year-old men will be perfectly willing to grab something on the side, I suppose. She wanted someone to want, to crave her, to feel exactly about her as the 10th commandment forbids. She wanted that to feel young and alive and sought after again. I severely doubt if it was the sex.
And now you are saying, that you have trouble finding her attractiv and are certainly not craving her at the moment. I am sure, she feels would rather be loved by you platonically for the rest of her life, than to be without you, but I do have the feeling (Having read your thread, not knowing her) that she also needs the feeling of (let's call it physical admiration).

Well, you know her a bit better, just think about it.

Happyheart

I was reading Happyhearts post on here and maybe chime in a little as a 40 year old woman.
First of all, 40 is a tough age to turn, I never thought of myself as a "woman" until then, I was always a lady or gal. Now suddenly I am middle age. It is hard to accept.
Now suddenly feeling "old" I want to feel young. When I look in the mirror I see lines that were never there before and the grey hair is creeping in and what used to be perky and firm isn't, it makes me kind of sad that my youth is going away.
EN are really important right now. A 40 year old woman wants to feel attractive, loved, important, young, sexy, beautiful (anything but "old") etc.
Just a little food for thought.

Another woman's perspective...no, I have not been comfortable aging either. I started focusing on it probably when I turned 35. I'll be 40 this year. Our culture tries to convince us that the "ideal woman" is a skinny, preternaturally young creature with an impossibly tiny waist and impossibly perky breasts (lol what goes through my mind when my girls are playing with Barbie dolls!!!). Ever notice how male actors often have longer careers as leads than female actors? Yes, there are notable exceptions, but seems like the leading ladies get younger while the leading men age.

I've never had a great degree of self-confidence in my looks anyway, but that whole getting older thing was in the back of my head. One of my top ENs is admiration. Allowing OM to meet that need was allowing him to make LB$ deposits. It was not about the sex at all for me. I wanted to feel beautiful and desired. I threw my life away for something so shallow.

Maybe...flirt with her like you did when you were younger and courting. Look into her eyes. Read SB's body language thread. Tell her she's beautiful. When my H and I were dating and newly married, he used to leave me little notes or say to me, "Good morning, Beautiful." Major LB$ deposits. I miss it.

Inner beauty is not so bad.
Inner beauty lights up the eyes and brightens the smile.

Wow great insights I never really thought of it that way I've always just assumed that if someone has an affair it has to be because someone was Doing something wrong. And it's very hard to find out that you can do "everything right" in the relationship and still have your spouse cheat on you. but perhaps your are all right And my wife was just afraid of getting old how do i deal with that how you deal with someone who can cheat on you for no good reason. I mean remorse and begging for forgiveness can only take you so far you still have to deal with how they could do this to you and that's what I still struggle with. So I guess I should rephrase my question and asked again. Is there any BS/WS whose marriage was in good shape before and during the affair and If so did your marriage recover and how????

Mittens, I was not trying to justify what your wife did. I am no expert, I am going through my own personal he11. I was just trying to let you see what it feels like to a 40 year old woman.

Exactly right - I think the point is that your W's "reasons" - whether it's fear of aging or anything - don't justify the decision to cheat. However, it may have caused her to have a greater need for admiration than perhaps she ever had before - our ENs do change - and having poor boundaries and allowing OM to meet her need for AD simply allowed him to get a foot in the door. Mitt, do you think she does not quite yet grasp what boundaries and ENs are? b/c if everyone who feared aging had an A, well, there would be a lot more people having A's. It's the combination of unmet ENs and poor boundaries that causes A's. You may have been doing an excellent job meeting her need for AD, but as she changed, her needs changed, and she began to need AD more. Rather than being O&H with you that it was something she needed, she started outsourcing that need.

I never thought you were and thanks for the perspective.





I'm pretty sure she gets the concept of boundaries and EN's it's just I think she's having a hard time with guilt Because Whatever we were doing wrong back then That caused the affair changed And the fog lifted and she gave up the affair. and now she feels guilty For what She felt back then and just doesn't want me to know and cause me more pain. I have told her that the truth is the best way for us to recover but I don't think she'll ever admit that I wasn't meeting her EN or what was really wrong to cause a affair.

My marriage was good before the affair. It was lousy during because... well, she was having an affair. Her motivations? largely to tick her parents off and get back at them. we are still recovering, but see light at the end of the tunnel.

Doesn't that piss you off that she would hurt you so bad for something so insignificant and Petty. I mean that's what gets to me the most that she would do this Over something so trivial as your age.

You are in my prayers today mitten.

You know how you see those newly dating couples around, those loving glances they do, those little touches, the 'I can't wait until I see you again' feeling. That is good for the EN's.

Years ago my WH surprized me one day. I came home, he was actually doing some house work, no shirt on and an apron around his waist (a man one, the kind made for b b q ing). This made me laugh. It was when he turned around, he wasn't wearing any shorts either. This made me giggle, he played it off that nothing was out or the ordinary, and continued to pick up stuff around the house. This made me giggle more. You know what, that was a good evening we shared.

Have you tried something like this, something to make her relax and giggle ?

I get what you're saying it's just hard to be spontaneous and "giggle" when you're not sure how you feel about your wife.

My FWW's told me the same thing.

However, our M at the time her A started was not at its best, but it was getting better, and she did tell me that it's possible the A may have never happened if things had starting improving a bit earlier. I consider that a lot of fog-speak - A are all about personal interests and usually have very little to do with the state of the M.



I suspect that had a LOT to do with it. My FWW fell for an OM that was twelve years her junior. Of course he was only in it for a bit of fun and dropped her like a hot potato when the A became known to me, but I think she was quite flattered by his interest in her, and basically fell for him.

I've also noticed within my community (and on here) that a lot of As seem to occur when the WW is somewhere between 35~45, and almost always a younger OM (or an older, but more "active" OM) is involved.


I'll tell you though - What surprised me is the little the OM actually had to do in order for my FWW to commit adultery with hmi. This was no long-running EA that eventually turned into a PA - apparently all he had to do was to say the right things at a few right times, make a move when the timing was right and that was it - she was hooked. The fact that it took so little does have me questioning the rest of our marital history and wondering if this was in fact her first A, but she swears that they have not been any others, so I suspect age, and that fear of getting old had a lot to do with her choices.

Maybe I should post this in my thread, but I thought it goes along with this conversation so I will post it here.

My wife has a high need for AD. I used to be able to meet this with ease, because honestly I thought the world of her. She is very attractive, and I told her such. She is caring, loving, giving, etc. But I don't see her that way anymore. Physically I see all sorts of flaws that must have been there before, but I never really noticed (they almost magically appeared when I found out about the affair). Now I know of all sorts of lies, manipulation, and selfishness and have a hard time admiring that person. As far as admiring the effort to rebuild our marriage, I see her doing the absolute minimum to keep me around.

So the question is, how do I admire someone that I see so much negative in?

Mim,

My FWW fell for an OM that was twelve years her junior. Of course he was only in it for a bit of fun and dropped her like a hot potato when the A became known to meOM found a younger girl than himself who he married, but I think she was quite flattered by his interest in her, and basically fell for him.

35~45, and almost always a younger OM (or an older, but more "active"cunning OM) is involved.

OM1 my age, OM2 younger, OM3 older & OM4 much older.

Funny how these stories are almost all the same except for small details.

God Bless
Gamma

Gable did Red Dust in 1932

Gable did Magambo in 1953 the remake of Red Dust

Undenialable proof, irrefutable proof that men age better then women.

Any body that want to argue that



However women keep in mind that you don't have to be skinny with a big rack to attractive. Also trips to the plastic doc I find only make you age worse. Women your perception of looking hot and being hot are not the same.

Best thing for a woman (and men) to do to look good is eat well, exercise, and use those height weight charts, make your goal for your weight to not go higher then the upper range for your height. You won't be model skinny, and thats good because that's too skinny. You'll be healthier and live longer. More SF then.

Today we see more actress' and everyday women still looking very attractive as they age due to eating smart and exercising and young looking hair styles. Why do you think the term milf came about today and not in the past?

I close with that many women forget to use their prettiest asset: their smile.

Ok I used to tell my wife, The most attractive actress out there,

And please dont call me a mommas boy,

Annette Benning

There is just something about her, not particularly young, not particulary skinny with a big rack.... but in my eyes amazingly attractive.

The whole eat well and play well is really important. My WW has gained some weight 10-15 and she looks amazing,,,pshcho but amazing

I think that's a fair question, unfortunately one I don't have an answer for. I'm probably venturing into DJ-land, but I suspect that could be why I don't receive AD from H anymore. His perception of me was rocked by what I did, not just the affair, but how I lied to try and conceal the extent of it, and who I was during that time did not jibe with who he believed I was. He referred to me as "evil" when he posted here, and just a few months ago told me I wasn't "worth it."

My hunch, nomore, is that your W "doing the absolute minimum" is in no way filling your LB$. The MB program is built on the premise that if one spouse, let's say the wife, is sucessful in filling her husband's LB$, then her husband should be in love with her, and would naturally want to meet her ENs, including AD...b/c if you were in love, you'd find lots to admire.

Gamma, the OM in my case was actually engaged to someone else at the time too! There was no possible chance that the A meant any more to him than "a hole to stick in", while he waited for his fiancee's return, and she was more likely no more than a MILF to him. Oh, and while this was all going on, he was carrying on an A with someone else (a much youger girl) at the office too, and my FWW knew about that! My FWW was pretty taken back when he stopped communicating with her immediately as NC was suggested - I was surprised that she was expecting anything else but that to happen.

My FWW is a smart woman, but her A was such an incredibly stupid act that it still leaves me wondering what on earth got into her...

**edit**

drifter, please do not wander on to a poster's thread and begin spouting non-MB advice. This is incredibly damaging and disrespectful to this poster and to the owner of this site, who has saved thousands of marriages that were on the brink of divorce because of infidelity.

Please read the concepts of this site and familiarize yourself with them before attempting to advise other posters.

I would suggest you start your own thread to tell us your story.

**edit**

You can live for yourself and divorce her without hurting your relationship with your kids.

Gotta be a divorce-lawyer!

A reminder to posters that the purpose of this forum is to help posters with Marriage Builders concepts, not to share conflicting personal philosophies. If you can help this poster with his marriage problems, please feel free to post. If not, kindly refrain from posting.

Thank you for your cooperation.

**edit**

Drifter,

Please start your own thread, you are obviously in great pain, posting on other peoples threads is less effective.

You won't be denied a forum of your own, they will let you state your state of mind and feelings there, but this is OLDMITTENS forum.

God Bless
Gamma

What a sad existence.

People CAN change. Through God all things are possible. What his wife did was horrible but it didn't then and won't ever hereafter define Oldmitten's masculinity. She can repent and change and they can have a valuable marriage again. It's undeniable that it's happened here on MB many times through the years.

Perhaps one day Oldmittens will be divorced...but I pray he never adopts this 'live for yourself' attitude.


Mr. Wondering

It has been a stressful week I've been having a hard time dealing with triggers especially the movies in my head. Every time I'm with my wife I picture her and the OM together and it can ruin my whole day. my wife has been amazing With helping me get through it it's hard to describe but it's just The way she always knows when I'm upset, she will Squeeze my hand Look me in the eyes and say she's sorry in a very soft and soothing voice. we have been focusing on are UA time together we have gone running together every day this week, we spend an hour and a half every day talking when I get home from work and have had SF everyday this week. And while it's nice I'm still having a hard time dealing with it all and frankly I feel embarrassed sometimes be seen With her. I love her and I hope we can reconcile but I just don't know how to get over My wounded "pride" if you will and really put 100% effort into reconciliation. Has anyone else ever felt embarrassed to be seen with their wayward spouse after D-Day and exposure and if so how did you get over it.

**edit**

I have no idea what this means, mitt. But I'm glad to hear you're working on recovery!

**edit**

Thank you for the support it's never easy but I'm hoping it'll be worth it. I still very much want my family and hope one day I'll be able to look at my wife the same way I used to with love and respect.

There is dissent and then there is dissent.

**edit**

Though I think I would of delivered the same fate to drifter.

One thing to rage about how a BS should divorce the WS and then it's another thing to site reasons why in a poster's case divorce is the way to go.

Not all marriage can be or should be saved. However I think you are doing the right thing to recover yours.

Old Mittens are you there still? Very painful past with you and me both, brother. I'm still dealing with a harsh EA from two years ago, and it was "only" an EA. We are moving forward, creaking along like the Mawflower crossing the ocean; leaks springing up here and there and stiff winds shifting things around on deck.

But when I read your post I am so sorry you have this great pain. From your wife's reaction, perhaps in all honesty she was in such a fog at the time of conception that it wasn't her true self acting at the time, but rather was a version of your wife that came out, evolved feom from her being unhealthy at that time - certainly her EN's not totally being met within the marriage. Truly it isn't your daughter's fault at all and she is lucky she has you as the father - the "real" father in every sense except some small DNA code. You are her real father and always will be.

If you can get your EN's met by your spouse, sounds like she's trying hard, and she can get hers met by you, and it sounds lie you are trying hard, then you are at least on the right track for now. I guess too that she has a Giver and a Taker and you may want to think ahead about her Giver and her Taker, making sure she's not the only one doing the Giving. No one wants to hear about our own contributions to the problem, but as betrayed spouses, we did have something to do with it. But it sounds like you are opening yourself to your wife, and trying ever harder to meet her EN's. She is also trying to meet yours. You will start to feel more empowered and in charge, and more in control if you re-double your efforts to think ahead and meet some of her EN's. You don't want her Giver to start tiring out and cause some kind of harsh Taker to pop out anfd rear it's ugly head.

Do you think that real love means possible vulnerability, and by opening ourselves to real Love you are also opening the door for potential hardships along the way?

I say all this to you so that I can say it to myself... I'm really only preaching to the choir.

L2L

As per TOS, please email the administrator with concerns regarding moderation. Further discussion of this matter will not be tolerated.

I don't think anyone minds honest and open discussion. I think it's a problem when it wanders into uninformed comments that are contrary to the concepts of the owner of this site.

Marriage Builders isn't the wild, wild west where anything goes. The rules are on the front door. Anyone who doesn't take the time to read them will likely be edited when they post against those rules.

Pretty simple, really.

Sorry for the t/j, mitt.

You might not like it, mayday, but them's the rules of this forum. It has been set up and paid for Dr Harley, and he has the right to enforce any rule he likes. We are all guests here and we are here by his privilege. If you don't like that, there are other forums where any point of view goes.

If you have an issue with the way the board is managed, please familiarize yourself with our Terms of Service or send an email to the moderators. But don't disrupt threads complaining about our TOS, which is against our TOS. When you sign up to be a member on our board, you agreed to our TOS.

I've been having trouble with my oldest daughter pretty much ever since she found out about the affair. At first it was more just a distance thing, She would just not talk to me and pretty much ignored me. but since my wife left the hospital she has become more and more hostile And downright cruel to me. She will say things intentionally hurtful just to get under my skin and anger me I always stay calm but it's becoming very hard to deal with. This led to a big blowout this past Wednesday where both her and I said things that are very hard to come back from and now I'm worried that our relationship may be damaged beyond repair. I love my daughter always have always will but I just don't like her right now. I was hoping to get some advice on how to deal with this has anyone else had to deal with a child who knew about the affair and sided with the WS and if so how did you move past it.

Sorry to hear about that Oldmitt. How is the wife been acting during these incidents?

When my parents got divorced, my dad said alot of stupid crap to my sister, who was a teenager at the time. One of the things he attempted to do was turn her against my mother. It basically backfired, and scarred the relationship, even to this day.

You write about what your W is doing for reconciliation, so there is no way I'd believe that she is saying things behind your back. Perhaps it could be that your daughter sees it along these lines:

she views your W's hospitalization as strictly your fault and the way you handled things - even it overshadows your W's affair. So instead of being angry at mom (which she might be), this anger over seeing your W hospitalized (which by no means whatsoever is your fault, rather a breakdown because her secret was out)is trumping any anger she has for the affair.

Its a dicey situation with children, but I'd say particularly challenging with teen girls. As I said, my sister and dad still are rocky, and she is now 32 years old. For my sis and dad, they never really talked it out. Let it build and fester. It sucks and is hard, but the only thing that would have worked for them , and something for you to consider, once the dust settles, is to keep tryig to talk. Even if you don't get anywhere at first, keep the lines of communication open.

What happened to your dad and your sister is what I fear will happen to me and my oldest. That things will be said and done that can't be taken back and our relationship will become Strained and distant and I do not want that. As for my wife this is not been easy on her either my youngest,who I'm very close with has been bad mouthing her to basically anyone who will listen. She barely talks to her mother and when she does it's never anything nice she's always giving her a dirty look and keeps telling her that I'm going to leave her any day now. The only good thing to come out of any of this has been That my youngest daughter and I's relationship has become much closer.

Oldmitt,

What killed any attempt at communication between my sister and father was their refusal to be composed and calm when the hurtful words started flying. They both said things they couldnt take back, but neither of them stepped up first: to be the one to calm down.

An apology by one of them to he other could have opened a channel. Who knows. Years later, damage is still done. I hope that you are able to begin resolving things.

I've been having trouble with my oldest daughter pretty much ever since she found out about the affair. At first it was more just a distance thing, She would just not talk to me and pretty much ignored me. but since my wife left the hospital she has become more and more hostile And downright cruel to me. She will say things intentionally hurtful just to get under my skin and anger me I always stay calm but it's becoming very hard to deal with. This led to a big blowout this past Wednesday where both her and I said things that are very hard to come back from and now I'm worried that our relationship may be damaged beyond repair. I love my daughter always have always will but I just don't like her right now. I was hoping to get some advice on how to deal with this has anyone else had to deal with a child who knew about the affair and sided with the WS and if so how did you move past it.

I am really scratching my head here. You allow your minor child to back talk you?

Is this a minor child?

Kids will often use projection when they don't feel safe telling the real source.

Her world was annihilated by your WW. Your very impressionable daughter now has one sourse for protection ... YOU!

Your daughter wants to know if she can hurt you as bad as mom has hurt her, will you still be around. She no longer feel safe by mom. Nope, mom has annihilated her world.

Your daughter is pushing her boundaries with you for many reasons.

1) Did dad hurt mom so bad that she cheated? If I hurt dad that bad what can I get away with and still have him love me? (You need to make sure absolutely Nothing - she is testing to see if you are safe )

2) If dad didn't cause mom's affair, then did I cause her to have an affair.

3) How far can I push boundaries with men to get what I need, let me test dad first. He seems to give mom things and she hurt him horrifically.


The key is to make sure you continue your safe and loving boundaries with her.

"Darling daughter I am your father and the words out of your mouth are not loving or kind. When you can speak to me loving and kindly then I will address you to talk about your issues. In the meantime - go sweep the garage and figure out how to speak to me in a respectful tone."

"Darling daughter, I understand your pain, and I want to reassure you nothing you do or say will change my devoted, committed love for you as your father. Under no circumstances are the hurtful words out of your mouth helpful. Please mop the kitchen until you can release your anger and then come speak to me respectfully. If you feel you cannot talk, then I also accept your frustrations in the form of a letter. I have work now, so if you want to discuss this then I can give you a two hour timeframe to either speak with me or write me a letter. I love you more than the world"

Mitt, I think you and your wife should set her down and let her know in no uncertain terms that she has to treat you with respect. Make it clear that you won't tolerate her disrespect as long as she lives under your roof. I don't view this as an issue with the affair but a issue with her disrespecting authority.

For real? You would say that to a teenager who had just back talked you and defied your authority?

Yes - and I would also make her mop the floor, take out the trash, and do something else she doesn't want to do. She is hurting for all sorts of reasons. I would put money on the fact she wants to test dads boundaries more than ever now. Mom did it so why can I?

What do you suggest?

I don't know what would work for his child, but I do know with my sons, all it took was an icy "I BEG YOUR PARDON?" I wouldn't dream of allowing a child to back talk me, because that just teaches them to disrespect authority when they get out of the house.

My suggestion would be to present a united front and establish a zero tolerance for disrespect for authority. And if it continues, then she starts losing privileges. That kind of disrespect warrants a firm approach, not a wimpy approach, IMO.

No, but I've had to deal with angry outbursts.

When you are angry, you are temporarily insane. Anything you are thinking of saying or doing will, by definition, be an insane idea. So do nothing.

Practice relaxing, every day. When you are able to relax, practice relaxing while thinking about things that upset you.

If you feel angry, shut up. Then, leave if you have to.

Let your daughter form her own opinions, even if they are wrong, okay?

hello there I have a question that's been on my mind a lot and I thought I should come here and get your advice. Ever since D-Day I've had this (I don't know what you'd call it) urge I guess to start over. Every day I feel more and more that coming home was a mistake and that reconciliation with my wife is not possible and were just wasting our time trying to fix it. it's not that she's not trying she has done everything you could ask and more it's just most days I feel apathetic at best and downright hate her at worst.I don't know what to do I feel this great sense of guilt at the thought of leaving And thus abandoning my family but at the same time I'm ashamed of myself for staying. I always said I would leave any woman who cheated on me let alone someone who would have an affair with my best friend for two years. I know most books say it takes 2 to 5 years to recover but I Don't know if I have it in me to hold out that long. Has anyone here had to deal with this and if so how did you get through it???

im still in recovery myself so i am still trying to get through what you are experiencing but here is my take on what ive had to deal with so far.

i have good days and bad days and then i have what i call self destructrive days, self destructive days are days that things just seem to overhelm me and i catch myself falling into old/bad habits it could have been a trigger or just me emotions getting the better of me for me i found that if i ask my wife to give me a half hour of alone time i go to the garage and grab my notebook and write out what i am feeling and why (if i know why) usually this helps bring me out of it because then i have an solid reference for what triggered me and how to avoid it in the future.

i cant stress enough about UA time do whatever is needed to get your 15-20 hours a week of UA time in.

patience nothing that is worth it and a loving fullfilling marriage is worth it comes easy it will take time for you to fall back in ROMANTIC love again there will be plenty of ups and downs so you have to be strong make sure you take care of yourself and UA time is a must in my opnion from what i am going through UA time will make or break a recovery.

Mitt, this is so normal for a BS it's not even funny. You gotta take it a day at a time... An hour at a time if needs be. You and your wife are going to have to work on building a ROMANTIC relationship. And you will have to do it when it hurts too.

Her 41 WW 2y A with FBF
A started 05/09
OC born 2/10
DNA test 15/08/11
DDs 14and16
DDay 02/07/11
DDay2 22/07/11
I agree to try to work on the marriage 26/09/11

You were betrayed by your wife. 1st.
You were betrayed by your friend. 2nd.
You were betrayed by your WW having unprotected SF and letting the OM knock her up. 3rd time betrayed.
You were allowed to believe the OC was yours. From 2/10 to 8/11. That's 1 1/2 years. 4th time.

So compared to many a BH you have to swallow a lot more betrayal. 4 times the amount.

Your DD was 7/11.
DNA test 8/11.
You decide to attempt recovery 9/11.

Your plate if full.

However plates can be cleaned.

Thing is affairs take two to five years to clean up. Your not two months into recovery. Three months to learning your child is an OC. Four months since dday.

Normal. Is what you are feeling. Rollercoaster ride of emotions. Part of the rollercoaster ride is at about 6 months after start of recovery the BS begins the anger phase. This is where the BS gets angry at the WS for having the affair. This phase lasts for about 6 months.

This rollercoaster is why people are advised to wait 6 months before they make major decisions.

Reasons to recover:
BS was happy/content, but can learn to have a better marriage post affair.
Family, intact and healthy better for the COM.

Reason to not R:
Can't get past what happened. This decision usually needs time to process what happened so a thought out response is needed instead of a knee jerk response.

And plates can be tossed.

Ole, that is a normal part of recovery and you can expect to feel this way for the first year. You won't always feel this way, I promise.

It takes 2-5 years to become recovered, not that those 2-5 years are all going to feel like this now. As others have said, it will get better. It has to.

I sometimes like to look at what your life would be like without using MB. Now THAT would SUCK.

Stick to it, and let the people here help you through it.

I'm trying so hard I just feel like such a loser for staying and feel bad for thinking that way. I keep telling myself that you're doing the right thing That everyone would be a lot happier if you just stick to it suck it up And save your marriage. It's just I feel so apathetic towards my wife I don't hate her and I'm pretty sure I still love her it's just I feel so empty when I'm with her. I don't laugh with her but then again I don't cry with her, I don't feel joyous when I'm with her but I also don't feel sorrow either, when we make love I don't feel a connection with her but at the same time it makes me feel a lot better when we do.I have been giving a lot of thought and if my feelings of apathy don't change by next year I will move back out it's not what I want but I can't keep living like this I feel empty all the time and I don't want to.

...if my feelings of apathy don't change by next year I will move back out it's not what I want but I can't keep living like this I feel empty all the time and I don't want to.

As a responsible adult, you do owe your children and your marriage the EFFORT to reconcile; you cannot be burdened with owing them the SUCCESS. That will either come to you or not. A lot of the elements that contribute to a successful recovery are going to be the responsibility of your FWW. I hope like HELL she knows that, and will do the work required.

Meanwhile, Mitt, make an effort not to concentrate on anything but today, each day.

Owe effort not success

Quote

As a responsible adult, you do owe your children and your marriage the EFFORT to reconcile;

Why? Given the circumstances in his marriage, I disagree. He has made this choice out of free will and is now, and probably will continue, to second guess himself. But he doesn't owe his wife anything at all, quite the opposite.

I would like to take the time to remind him the clock is still ticking on the process to protect himself from 18 years worth of forced child support payments.

OleMittens, has your wife made any effort at all to set your daughter straight about her attitude of blaming you?

As a responsible adult, you do owe your children and your marriage the EFFORT to reconcile - NG

Given the circumstances in his marriage, I disagree. - AJ

Really? You think that in terms of trying to find a short-of-dissolution solution Mitt owes NOTHING to

• his children who are innocent of transgression in this matter, but would by whatever study you'd care to name, be better served by being raised in a two-parent household
• his pre-affair wife, who at one time Mitt made vows to regarding sharing a life together until death

You can make the case (I don't, but you CAN) that an affair eradicates the second reason, but I see no elimination of Mitt's ownership of the first.

And taking your position, AJ, would mean that NO BS owes his marriage the attempt to reconcile? In response, I would point out the title of this site, and the subordinate title of this board, my friend.

As far as things go with my oldest thereabout the same she still blames me for her mother's hospitalization both me and my wife have tried to make her see that it's no one's fault and that were all just trying to get through a difficult situation. But it's hard my daughter has a lot of anger in her and I think she is scared that I'm going to leave and that my wife will end up back in the hospital or worse. Also my youngest has said on several occasions that if I were to leave she would want to come live with me and have nothing to do with her mother that more then anything else is why I feel I should stay. But at the same time I am torn because I agree with what americajin said about not owing my wife anything I'm really starting to believe that while I still love her It's not the kind of love you need for a marriage. so while I agree I have to stay and try to find a way to make this marriage work for my kids I do not believe I owe my wife anything and I don't believe we will get back to the way we Were. But that we can get to a place where we both can tolerate the situation( at least until both our daughters are out of the home)then in a few years once things calm down and go our separate ways.

I don�t think that a BS is obligated to recover or rebuild a marriage when there has been infidelity. For some people it is a deal breaker if the spouse cheats; for them cheating = goodbye. You don�t see those people here. The folks you see here are those who can acknowledge that they played a role in either the decline or demise of their marriage, and can envision their way past it to forgiveness and building a new and better marriage. They acknowledge not meeting their spouses� emotional needs and, while not condoning the deplorable act(s) their spouses committed, are willing to give their part in their marriage almost the same weight or gravity, and therefore are willing to be a willing and enthusiastic partner to recovery as long as the WS is also.

But there are also those here that did everything they could to meet their spouses emotional needs, did everything they could to make their marriage the best it could be, and just had a spouse that is self-centered, selfish, or in some cases just plain promiscuous with only a fleeting understanding of what the word fidelity means. For every truly repentant WS like wulffpackgirl there are people like PSUBiker�s WS. In WPG's case you almost wish that you could just shake her husband and say,"Man, look at the opportunity you have here, you can have a great marriage with a truly loving wife if you can just find it in your heart to do so" but i would never presume to do that because it is his own personal choice and not obligation. Who am I to fault her husband, even though I think the process she has gone through has made her a better person and someone that would never do that again? I think WPG would make an excellent wife, and there are other WS here that have become great spouses, because I think this program really works, it makes two people cooperate in every sense of the word, ensuring an involvement in each other�s lives that makes everything else pale in comparison. However, I would never fault any BS who says I�m just not feeling it and wants to divorce; I feel that is their right to do so. Two people are obligated to stay faithful to each other, when one breaks that covenant it releases the obligation from the other. If you wanted to stay married then you wouldn't have cheated. I feel that even more strongly in the stories when there is an OC.

Yes, it is important for children to have both parents involved in their life, doesn�t necessarily have to be a two parent under the same roof household although I do agree that is the OPTIMAL situation. But there are also many circumstances in which this is not possible or advisable, and we�ve seen it all here on these boards from physical/verbal/sexual abuse to neglect to substance abusers. Unfortunately in our society if a man divorces if often means that he is minimized in his child(ren)'s lives. I'll bet that if we changed that and made child custody a 50/50 split with both parents equally involved and responsible in their kids lives, there'd be a lot less divorces filed bceause one side no longer has an advantage. And being forced to stay with someone who does what they want because they know they can hold the children over your head like a marital sword of damocles will become a thing of the past.

I guess it all comes down to choice or free will, we all make decisions for ourselves and then get to live with the success or consequences of those actions. I think in a way you�re telling OleMittens that he has no choice, that he has been presented a set of circumstances not of his own making and should just suck it up for the common good. Is it better for OleMittens to have to support children that are not his? Is it better for his daughters? What are his daughters learmnign from this? If OleMittens had no other children, would we view his decision the same way? Even Dr Harley has advised men who have no other children that divorce is an option. OleMittens has a finite window of opportunity to get a paternity test done, what if he lets that go by and later his wife continues to �just want to have a little fun that doesn�t mean anything� and perhaps even having another OC? Should he continue to let this happen because he owes the effort? At which point does he draw the line?

In OleMittens case I would have filed for divorce the very next day, to me it is incomprehensible how a guy would stay with a wife that had a child by another man while we were married and then expect me to support and parent this child. Am I wrong to feel that way? That is not to say that I am calling other people wrong for doing so, that is their choice, not mine. And I�m not telling OleMittens to not make an effort, I�m just telling him that it is his choice and not obligation to do so. All of us here give advice to different posters and while most of it follows pretty common themes according to the Harley program, there are differing views on different situations, all you have to do is follow any thread about sex in MB101 to see that illustrated nicely. In this situation, I feel that OleMittens is placing himself and his children in jeopardy because I don�t think his wife is sincere at all, I don�t think she is really vested in building a new marriage and I think that she�ll cheat again because she placed no value on her marriage and was willing to commit paternity fraud in addition to the betrayal. She was only sorry that she got caught and created this big melodrama in her family.

OleMittens, sorry for the mininovel I've written here, I agree with the others that what you're feeling is normal for any BS and you'll probably be second guessing yourself for months to come. I'm not trying to tell you what to do that has to come from you and you alone, all i'm trying to point out is that i do feel that you should put yourself in a position legally to protect yourself if the effort that you should not feel obligated to make doesn't work out for you.

I'm with jin. Old Mittens has had a heck of a ride. He was betrayed by WW and his best friend from childhood? There's an OC here and WW says she did it just for fun?

That's some high cost fun.

It would be very, very hard to work through this and though the kids are innocent here, how happy will they be with a horribly depressed dad?

The best thing you can do "for the kids" is to model what marriage should look like;

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb.cfm/9/430

If your wife will not commit to an MB led marriage, the best thing you can do is tell her to hit the bricks.

The best thing you can do "for the kids" is to model what marriage should look like;

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb.cfm/9/430

If your wife will not commit to an MB led marriage, the best thing you can do is tell her to hit the bricks.

it's just most days I feel apathetic at best and downright hate her at worst.

It's just I feel so apathetic towards my wife I don't hate her and I'm pretty sure I still love her it's just I feel so empty when I'm with her. I don't laugh with her but then again I don't cry with her, I don't feel joyous when I'm with her but I also don't feel sorrow either, when we make love I don't feel a connection with her but at the same time it makes me feel a lot better when we do.
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Hi Mitt,

Sorry you have not been feeling well lately. I think it is very understandable.

Apart from how hard DDay and so on were, I would want to rule out that you are clinically depressed.
I will tell you about my own experience. I have always been an extremely cheerful and optimistic person. Even through the most gruesome (I use that word because that's how it was) experiences I would see the light behind the clouds.
Well when my 4th child was half a year old, I 'fell out of love' with my DH. I noticed that if he came into the door, I did not have that happy feeling that I never knew to have when I saw him, until I noticed it was gone. I felt: Nothing. If he carressed me, it did not tingle. He could have been a tree or a rock, I did not feel anything for him. Well, sex was still enjoyable, but that was it. I felt like he did not care about my feelings and as if everybody was having a ball and I was standing in the cold dark outside looking in through the window, and nobody noticed that I was not there. Nobody was interested in me.
At that time, the medical journal came in the mail (I am an MD) with an article on how to screen patients for depression.
The two questions to spot 90% of depressions were:

1.
During the last month, have you frequently felt depressed, sad, gloomy, or hopeles?

2.
During the last month, did you clearly have less desire for and joy after thing that used to bring you pleasure?

That's when I realised I had a depression. Before that I had contemplated leaving my husband, because I thought he deserved a wife that loved him. I was glad to realise that my lack of feelings were caused by my brain's chemistry and succeeded in recovering myself from this depression thing in three months. With ups and downs gradually having more ups.

I just told you this, because you described your lack of feelings, and it reminded me of myself during that period. I know your situation is different, and only you can say if you are feeling atypical or if it is your situation (although those can be intertwined). Just think about it.

I did not realise I was having one, allthough I knew the typical signs, but I had thought, that as I was still sleeping, having good appetite, not having suicidal thoughts and having an appetite for sex too, that I wasn't depressed. I did not feel very depressed or sad either. I was easily irritable but rather felt other people were mean to me and I felt that things were never going to be better in the future. It was bad and could only get worse. So I did feel hopeless in that sense, but you know, never imagined you could be depressed without feeling sad. Just numb, especially for husband, not so much for children.

Well enough about me, I hope this can help you or others differentiate between feelings and depr.

God bless you,

Happyheart


P.S. one last thing, During those days I noticed how you know you like something: because you feel good while doing it. BUT if you do not have these good feelings because of chemistry you feel as if you are not enjoying the things you used to like! We are very dependent on this chemistry so that our brain tells us the right things. (When you feel bad, you will find a reason for the feeling, rather than the other way around)

I feel that I should clear something up. My wife has been nothing but remorseful since D-Day and has followed then MB principles 100% since I came home if anything she's more committed to MB Then I am. She has done anything and everything I have asked And has been happy to do it She tells me where she goes and who she goes with Has given me all her passwords gotten rid of her cell phone And ended any friendships with males. Really the problem with our recovery has been me I'm the one who is distant doesn't want to spend UA time together who doesn't want to talk or spend any time together really. She will try to talk to me about my day or how I'm feeling and honestly I wish she would just leave me alone. And when I get like this it upsets her greatly and that just leads to fighting and by fighting I mean me yelling at her and her crying. I just don't know what to do she is trying so hard and yet I have the hardest time putting in the littlest bit of effort and this frustrates her and then her frustration leads to guilt and sadness and her frustration and sadness leads me to anger and the anger just makes me want to distance myself even more from her.


P.S I've said this a few times before my posts but I will say it again one last time my youngest daughter is MY daughter and nothing is going to change that I have no interest in giving her up and whether or not my wife and I recover My daughter will be MY daughter.

Mitt, the solution is to bring the body and the mind will follow. You are very detached and traumatized by your wife's betrayal. This was a huge shock to you. And you probably can get over this, but you won't FEEL like it at first. When couples start spending UA time together at first, they never feel like it. It feels WRONG. But before long, you will enjoy it and you will look forward to this time.

Start planning 4 dates a week where you are out ALONE without kids and without friends, doing something you enjoy, like going out to dinner and for drives. Focus on these top 4 intimate emotional needs: affection, conversation, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment.


Keep your conversations as pleasant as possible when you are together. Don't talk about the affair and don't fight. No fighting. But start doing this, Mitt. If you are going to try to make this work, you have to have an action plan. Having no plan is a plan to fail.

Also, didn't the affair take place in your home? Have you considered moving?

MelodyLane We can't move my wife lost her job because of the way she acted After D-Day. I hear what you're saying about Just sucking it up until the feelings start to return but that's what I struggle with. We never used to have to schedule time together it just seemed to happen so naturally I never came close in my life to meeting anyone is unique as my wife but now it's such a struggle to be with her and I just don't know if I have it in me to save this marriage.

I gotcha. It is not going to happen naturally until you get back into the habit of doing the actions that led to those feelings. Those feelings don't come by accident, they come by DESIGN. They come from ACTIONS, not the other way around. So you are going to have to go through the motions until the feelings come back. Feelings follow actions, feelings follow actions.

Yes it is a struggle to overcome. It is more of a struggle to have a bad marriage and get divorced. So get to work!!

Sit down tonight with her and SCHEDULE out 20+ hours of undivided attention time. Have her line up babysitters and make those plans, Mitt. Actually schedule this out even though you don't FEEL like it. It is much harder to put this aside when you have the time scheduled.

You have been through a horrible shock, Mitt, and the solution is to walk the walk until your feelings come back. They will come back. You just have to do the work.

You never had to do a lot of things b4 and you still don't if you want to give up........ and yes you have it just look at your post a little closer and really read what you are saying to us. we all have a hard time at times.
I personally dont know your wife, but I have been in her shoes before, exactly the same sich w/o an oc. You should be able to tell true remorse from her. If she is really trying then personally i would take her and go through the motions. Her sadness and depression is because of what she has done... she hurts too and will maybe always hold her head a little lower..... I feel like it now 3.5 years later, dont know what i was thinking.. cant believe it was me...but it was.
cant blame it on anyone but me.

I never came close in my life to meeting anyone is unique as my wife

It is possible she is back just extremely wounded just like you.

Work a plan like ML said
I hate this term but fake it until you make it.

It will come!

Something you said earlier struck me as exactly as I feel. UA is a central component to rebuilding a marriage that got destroyed by adultery. I fully understand Dr. H's science behind it and it definitely makes a ton of sense.

One of the things my wife threw at me as part of our problem was we didnt spend enough time together alone. Id go down to the den to watch TV and she upstairs to the bedroom to watch TV. And, many other things we just didnt do.

Just last night we were in the same pattern, I downstairs, she upstairs until I remembered that this was one of many things drove into the arms of another guy. And I went to the bedroom. Not to initiate SF or expect her to suggest it, just to be together. Sure, Ive been a little down lately, but me laying there was so forced and so unpleasant for me that an anxiety attack popped up from nowhere.

Replacing unmitigated love for the anger and hatred I still have in me continues to be my biggest challenge.

I have to commend those who have been able to champion their hatred of their cheating spouse. It takes an absolute special individual just like Jin wrote yesterday to move past a spouse's affair. You have to be able to neuter your feelings and create something that wasnt there.

So, Mitt, as most of us in betrayed positions think our story is worse than anyone else's, you, sir, have a doozy of situation.

I use a pretty childish concept quite often when I hit a low point and the blood is simmering looking to start a converstaion that will take us in the wrong direction. I like to think of myself like a superhero. (I have mentioned this before.)

A superhero possesses great power which he can use for good or bad. I choose to be a good SH. Using my power that can destroy a family to, instead, refocus my attention, my focus on something pleasant. (I got this technique from another poster on my thread.) I take a moment to think of something from many, many years ago that made me laugh hysterically and just the mere thought makes me laugh today. I now have half a dozen of these moments to recall.

Remember what is going on is predominantly in our heads. You did say your Mrs. is on board and remorseful, so what is troubling you (us) is in our beans. Maybe a simple mental trick like above can help. Who knows?

Lastly, I have taken lately to writing my thoughts into a notebook. Yes, the folks here are great and have been critical to my progress, but sometimes jotting down a thought in to my notebook really helps. I will never show my wife this notebook, its for me alone. I have my list of 100+ questions about the her affair I still have in my head written in there. She'll never be asked these questions. Actually, just writing them kind of lowered my need to know the answers.

Our roads are bumpy, some more than others, but all are fraught with the anguish. You are not alone. Good luck.

Mitt, I want you to know that your feelings are very much like mine just after my husbands' affair. We are in a fully recovered, passionate marriage today. Your feelings are very typical.

On the other hand, you might not be able to recover. But that is a foregone conclusion and a self fulfilling prophecy if you don't do the things necessary to restore the love in your marriage. If you keep doing what you are doing, you will not recover. You have to have a PLAN and you have to stick with it.

If you cannot get over your resentment in a couple of years, I would agree you should give up. But you should give up NOW if you aren't going to do anything, but this will not change if you don't.

I get what you're saying about UA time and how important it is and we do spend a lot of time together we go to the movies twice a week and spend one hour every day alone to talk. The problem is we've been doing this for close to 2 months and I feel the same as I did the first day and that is bitter. I don't want to feel this way and I know that what's best for everyone is for me and my wife to Recover our marriage but whenever I think about the affair I get so demoralized and then it just goes downhill from there and this happens on a daily basis.

MikeStillSmiling I also find it helps to write my feelings down and I do that here for the most part my wife does not know I post here and I do not plan on ever telling her and I find coming here posting my thoughts or just reading other people's posts helps a lot. also I think you are right when you say that the people who can move past the hate they feel for their spouses affair is nothing short of amazing. I was amazed when I read your thread that you were even able to attempt recovery of your marriage I know I would not be will to forgive my wife if she did to me what yours did to you.

What part of my story do you find unforgivable?

The fact that she brought OM around you and your children almost on a weekly basis for dinners and let him pretend to be your friend all the while having a sexual and emotional relationship with OM. the fact that even after she fell out of love with OM she continued the affair and as you said basically prostituted herself to him. But most of all is the fact that it went on for six years that amazes me the fact that you are able to forgive her for deceiving you for that long amazes me and makes me wish I had your strength of character.


P.S I hope I did not offend you in any way it was not my intent i only wished to convey how much I admire you for being able to forgive your wife. yours is one of the first stories I read on this site and it just blew me away you are a scholar and a gentleman sir and I wish you the best of luck.

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Really the problem with our recovery has been me I'm the one who is distant doesn't want to spend UA time together who doesn't want to talk or spend any time together really. She will try to talk to me about my day or how I'm feeling and honestly I wish she would just leave me alone. And when I get like this it upsets her greatly and that just leads to fighting and by fighting I mean me yelling at her and her crying. I just don't know what to do she is trying so hard and yet I have the hardest time putting in the littlest bit of effort and this frustrates her and then her frustration leads to guilt and sadness and her frustration and sadness leads me to anger and the anger just makes me want to distance myself even more from her.

The underlined sections of your post point to a problem, and that is how you deal with the betrayal, and the time needed by the BS, are not determined by the WS. Most WS would like nothing better than to gloss over everything, rush through the unpleasant parts, and get back to the way life was before they were caught. They get frustrated when they think things like "why can't he/she just hurry up and get over it?"

The efforts you described OldMittens are just EPs put into place for YOUR peace of mind, these are really minimal efforts, kind of like ground floor requirements for you to stay in the marriage and not leave. Getting upset because you are having a trigger or want a little time alone is not making an effort to be a better spouse to you. What has your wife really done to recover your marriage except get angry when it doesn't proceed like she wants it to?

Your wife owes it to you to tell your daughter the truth about who is at fault, if she was really inetersted in making things right she wouldn't need to be told this.

I see that you have made your decision about the child so I won't mention it again.

Please. Offend me? Not even close.

Yes all that really sucked. And I can name a dozen more things she did on top of those things. But, yes those are the biggies.

Keep this mind and I HAVE to believe it, each of those and all the rest hurt her worse. Her children know what she did and Id hate to have to live forever with that. Her husband is a depressed shell of his former self. There is a pall over this house and its of her creation. And so on.

But, enough of the negative, Old Mitt, life is short. Our wives put us in the situation but nothing says we have to stay in this situation. We can choose to move forward and do what is necessary to rebuild our lives. We'll have momentary lulls and excruiating pain for a couple of years and then, some say, things should get better.

Leaving the marriage and crushing my 2 kids is not an option and not something either my wife nor I want. Right now they are worth the pain and embarassment my wife gave us. And I do believe my wife is working hard to show me she's worth it.

(By the way, scholar and gentlemen is extremely strong. Forgiving in light of great hurt is my best quality.)

I think the first part of your post is right I think she very much wishes that I would just hurry up and get over it but I disagree with you that she's only put in minimal effort. She is the one who puts in the most effort she's always trying to find a way to include herself in the things I like to do. she follows the idea of POJA And always tries to be understanding when I'm upset. it's just I get upset so often it starts to get to her and I can't blame her and then that leads to a fight. And as for telling our children I was the one who decided not to tell them She has said on numerous occasions that if I feel the need to tell them than I should and that if we get divorced she thinks it's best that they know why.

scholar and gentlemen is something my grandfather used to call people it's just a habit I picked up wasn't meant to be Literal.

Mitt, you talk about your marriage BEFORE, but I want to point out it was that marriage that led to this affair. You don't want that back. You have to achieve something MUCH BETTER if you going to make it.

And you are not going to make it if you don't work really hard to turn this around. Your marriage will STAY like this. You will STAY bitter and resentful. You have to replace that bitterness and resentment with a great, happy marriage or this will be your future.

Marital recovery does not happen by magic fairy dust. It happens through hard work. If you don't do the work, welcome to your future.

I think I should clear something up we do not talk about the affair very often it's just I think about it a lot and that leads me to be bitter and angry all the time I've tried to stop thinking about it but I just can't seem to. And also one hour a day of talking and going to the movies are not all we ever do together it's just they're the only things that are consistent the rest of Our UA time is spent doing Things that are fun but not memorable so I didn't bother to put them in my post sorry for the confusion but we usually get 18-22 hours together ie Having lunch together going for walks when I get off work Going on holidays together things like that.

Thank you for the clarification. It will be a long time before you stop thinking about it. I am very sorry.


I don't understand what you mean. You talk about what? Can you finish that sentence?


What is your schedule for this week and what are the plans? How many hours do you have scheduled?

we don't really talk about anything specific it's mostly just about what we did that day and how were feeling and sometimes it's just small talk I've had a hard time coming up with things to say to my wife since this whole affair.as far as a schedule we haven't actually sat down and drawn up one in the literal sense but we make sure we have at least one hour conversation every day We have date nights every weekend sometimes we will go to the movies other times it will be dinner we have gone dancing a couple times in the past few weeks and have been talking about taking a class. Every day my wife comes to my work and has lunch with me and we have a book club that we have been members of for almost 6 years now so I feel that we are getting as much UA time as is practically possible.

Out of respect to the forum owner, I'll not mention where I lifted this from.


Now, I want you to pay attention to what I emphasized in your post, and what is emphasized in that list.

Talking about your feelings with each other is a goal in UA time - it is Intimate Conversation. You might also look again, and see where vulnerability (the beginnings of Intimate Conversation) starts.

This presents you with two pieces of information - where your interaction with your wife should begin, and where under Extraordinary Precautions, all her conversation with the opposite sex should STOP.