[tj]
Thanks everyone, for the birthday wishes.
[/tj]

Interesting talk with the exWW today. It started because I had to set my boundaries about something. About a month ago I was picking up DD10 and exww said something a little demeaning about OM#2 (who still hangs around quite a bit) and then �but we love him.�

That bothered me a lot but I wasn�t sure how to address it. So today I called exww and assured her that I was not teaching my daughter the same thing. I said that as a Christian I teach the kids to �love� everyone but that some people are to be avoided in their lives and they do not have to �love� anyone in particular especially if that person is known to have low personal integrity or moral fiber. I took the opportunity to reiterate my point that I didn�t want my kids around him, but that I wouldn�t tell her what to do; and that I would support her dating, just not OM#2 and that it was offensive to me what she said and that the kids should be given latitude when it came to their feelings for someone who was obviously �there for her� when she chose to dismantle their family.

She was very accepting of all this and understanding. She assured me that she�s not pushing OM#2 on the kids but that he�s around most times as a default because she �doesn�t have anyone else.�

For a while I�ve been feeling a little sorry for her. I realize I�m supposed to be achieving �indifference,� but these feelings aren�t anything more than human empathy. She has a dying father, a crazy dysfunctional family, and now nobody to support her (a choice she made to �not be married anymore� and �do things on my own�). I have rarely seen a poster here say they felt sorry for their exWS, so I was just wondering how unusual that was.

At any rate, another thing that came out was her insistence that she could never follow just one philosophy on something (like MB or Catholicism for instance). I�ve sent her some posts from time to time, and she just won�t latch on to anything here, even for her own recovery. This reminded me of the unlikelihood that we could have recovered our marriage. She is not someone who is interested in following a �plan.� It�s just not in her fiber. I was hoping for my kids� sake by now she would have had some revelations and reached a new point in her journey toward self-actualization, but it doesn�t seem much progress has been made.

I read someone�s tag line � a quote from PEP. "Please, don't stay together for the kids, TRY MB RECOVERY for yourself and for the kids." I tried the first part for many years. I�m reassured today that the second part wasn�t an option. Sad.

opt

Opt,

but these feelings aren�t anything more than human empathy. .......I have rarely seen a poster here say they felt sorry for their exWS, so I was just wondering how unusual that was.

Something about what you wrote struck me, I am not divorced, but when my W cheated on me I think one of my rationalizations was that what she was going through at that time somehow justified what she did. I can remember feeling hollow and destroyed, but I found the strength to comfort HER, and I would have to agree that at that moment it was something more like empathy than love that motivated me.

God Bless
Gamma

I don't go around saying it much, but I'm sorry for my WXH.

Our children won't have anything to do with him, his family of origin is dysfunctional, he's being sued because of somebody else's auto accident, and we're being investigated by the IRS.

I believe he thought he was going to ride off into the sunset with the OW and they would have this beautiful life together. Instead, their relationship has been off and on since we separated.

I honestly think my WXH is a narcissist and he doesn't feel like he's "real" unless someone is watching and telling him how wonderful he is. He's alone a lot.

Of course I feel sorry for him. I wouldn't be human if I didn't. It's a LOT easier to feel sorry for him since he stopped filing frivolous motions on a monthly basis, though. That was getting really old and really expensive.

Is it wrong that all I keep thinking is "PLAN B PLAN B PLAN B."

Don't waste your breath talking to your WxW anymore. It's useless. Don't tell her that you don't lie OM2 around the kids, just focus on teaching your kids right from wrong.

I like to do it in a way that doesn't vilify the other person. Instead, you teach your children that it is wrong to date while married(not talking specifically about WxW, but they will piece it together). Tell them that it is wrong to date someone who is married(or even in a relationship). Let them figure out that OM is scum on their own.

Another thing you need to do is stop talking to your WxW about her problems. You are being there for her, as a friend, and you don't want to cross into that kind of thing. Let her fall. She needs it to become a better person and a better mother to you children.

I know it isn't about MR, that's not even the point, just get outta affairland.

I don't think it's wrong to feel sorry for your ex to some extent but keep in mind that it was their choices/actions that put them where they are and they are not your problem anymore and above all, do not let that empathy affect your decision making. In other words, don't give them pause to suck you back in. They will try.

My XH ruined me financially, and to make matters worse, I lost my job and have been looking for five months but still haven't landed anything. The other day he called, looking for someone to bail him out of a situation (financially). Are you kidding? Seriously! I wished him luck and got off the phone as quickly as possible. Wow! He must view me as a huge sucker! Well I'm not...not anymore, my eyes were opened as a result of what he did to me.

Agree 100%. After hearing from posters like Mulan and Fred, I intend to stay in Plan B indefinitely with my STBX. May be something you want to think about too, at least limiting contact as much as possible.

Don't get me wrong, I could see why you feel bad for your XW, especially since you seem like a really nice guy, but waywards are experts at making people feel sorry for them. I'd hate to see you being manipulated in that way after everything this woman has already put you through.

And like Scotty alluded to, you are putting yourself at risk for meeting each other's ENs for intimate conversation...so you might be playing with fire there.

Do you guys see this happening?

I have been reading many many threads on here. I am finding over and over again the ones who cut all communication with their wayward (even after divorce) causes the wayward to really miss them down the road.

I hope I am explaining this okay ... Let me try again.

It seems once the dust settles the wayward doesn't do well when the BS cuts off all contact. I am seeing 95% of the time the wayward returns down the road. I am not sure how big of a sample needs to be taken to get an accurate read, but more often than not the wayward really misses the BS (especially after many years of marriage).

Frank Pittman describes the history is a major linkage. Sometimes I wonder if it actually an Emotional need.

The two partners get into a pattern relationship that is defined for each other. The longer the marriage the more entrenched the patterns become. Everything from brushing your teeth, daily routines, the food that is bought and cooked, political views, I guess you can see how it basis itself off the domestic/Conversation/family ENs.

Let's just say it is difficult to replace the betrayed spouse. It is difficult to train a new spouse to have the same dynamics that were built in the first marriage. I say train because that is often what happens in the second marriage. The comfort from the first marriage is attempted to be duplicated.

I know for me I decided my WH is as good as dead to me if he goes through with this divorce. I refuse to have a friend who hurt my children and myself in such an abusive and cruel manner. It is truly sociapathic how bad a wayward can treat their family.

What do I take into my next marriage.

*GOD, Integrity, Character, and Morals

1) I love to give facials, foot rubs, and back rubs
2) I am a fabulous cook
3) I can make a six figure salary
4) I can bake the best cookies on the planet
5) I can raise many many kids by myself
6) I am thin (down to a size 6)
7) I enjoy sports
8) I am very outgoing
9) I eat dinner with my family each night
10) I have remained faithful, committed, devoted to marriage to the very end.

ETA: Which are the exact things that were in my marriage. My next husband will likely be simular to my current husband because the above it what I do best. I hope there is a man who likes a wife like that.

My point is - it is very difficult to change or morph anyone into what you expect them to be. The wayward can try all they want with the AP, but the key is they will always want most of what the BS brought to the marriage.

My WH gave up a darn good wife. He will miss me someday. Especially when he lays his eyes on my much thinner frame.

Personally, I feel our waywards don't deserve to talk to us. We, BS, are a great group of people because we are survivors. We stood for truth, character, and our kids.

God Bless
Tough

I think you're absolutely right. My WXH thought the OW would have all of my good qualities plus all of her good qualities. But in reality:

1. She's not a very good cook.
2. My dd told me that he got mad at her because he doesn't like how she uses her free time.
3. She's not very good with money despite being a banker (and he's really stingy).
4. She may be thinner than I am, but her boobs are tiny and everything is saggy. Even her tummy. (Runners don't wear much, so I've seen pictures)
5. She looks MUCH older than I do even though we're nearly the same age.
6. She has brown eyes, but he has a thing for blue eyes. I have gorgeous blue eyes.

It's weird when I think about it. Physical attractiveness is a huge deal for him. I guess the fact that she is several inches shorter than he is (he's short and I'm average height) and can run long distances with him made it work. When they run together he doesn't have to look at her.

I think it kills my WXH when he sees me because I've lost 25 pounds and look better than I have in years.

No, I don't see it. I hope if you want your cheating husband back that plan B works for you and he comes to his senses and comes home to you.

I too would like to see an actual sampling...to me plan B doesn't yield returned WS....it is suppose to help the BS heal faster though. I think most people who actually go Plan B don't have children and/or move on to divorce and a new life. In other words we don't typically see long term plan B'ers hanging around the boards.

You can see it talked about in the different forums. I shouldn't really link it to Plan B. What is discussed over the past ten years on the forum is when the BS cuts off contact, the WS after some time (usually after divorce) has come back to the BS to tell them they miss many things about them. They are unable to replicate it with the new spouse.

It follows Dr. H's recommendation for Plan B because he has talked extensively about this on his radio program. He has seen it time and time again, the WS cannot find another BS match. They begin to really miss what the BS brought to the marriage.

Maybe. But at that point it seems to be a day late and a dollar short.

Yes it usually is always too late. That is why I said to OPT to go dark because his WW needs to feel life without him.

It is a really sad process because as Dr. Harley has seen in his 40 years, plus the threads back up his work, the BS is usually always the best option. They are hard to replicate and the wayward spouse usually spends their life with regret.

I am a long time plan B-er.
I have three children with my WH.

When there is a will (and an awesome IM), there is a way.

My XH always assumed that I would be around waiting for him. Whenever he was in crisis (i.e., he was losing his job, he got arrested for DUI, SA, etc.), he wanted to reconcile but I didn't take him back as I knew he wasn't sincere.

Till the end when I finally told him it was 'too late', then he got very serious about reconciling, but it really was too late.

Yes, BS's think only of themselves and keep doing whatever pleases them as long as they think they can get away with their actions.

Why does she need to feel life without him? He isn't trying to get her back.

I wish I had time to respond to all these great posts. For now let me just say I totally appreciate your words and the discussion. Thank you, I have some things to think about and your perspectives are very valuable.

I have to reassure my buddy Scot (and Susie), I have been careful to limit the conversations with exww; and I will be even more cognizent of the content -- not to encroach on the territory of intimate communications. I appreciate what you're saying. I would say we're friendLY. This affords me much more access to my kids than would a plan B at this time; a fair trade-off in my view. I also dont feel I need plan B for my benefit; I've definitely moved on and am happy pursuing a healthy relationship (with much MB related discussions!)


I have some other thoughts but I gtg. Hope to bbs. Thanks again for your input my good friends.

opt

It will be OPT's choice. You never know where life will lead you. Just stating some options.

I was thinking about this a lot. My related post was illustrating how I have a desire for my exww to come to some point of discovery and emotional growth/maturity. I desire this muchly for the benefit of my kids. The getting back together train has left the station. The hurt of the adultery has subsided (over 2 years since dday). So I believe my motives are sound, if even slightly selfish.

So, I would agree that one way for exww to come to her own conclusions and personal growth would be to feel the full effects of her actions, squarely on the head. No argument there.

There are plusses and minuses, however. At this point I feel my less extreme methods are sufficient for ME, and my kids.

opt

I just read this again scotty and just wanted to say thanks. I really do understand. I totally see your logic. I am trying my best to limit contact as much as possible. There is not really conversation except exchanging of pleasantries and then the OCCASIONAL talk like the one I depicted above. I'll stay on boundary watch for sure.

Just realized this whole discussion should probably be on my Divorced thread.

Meanwhile things continue to go really well with Nature Girl. There have been a few things that have come up. She continues to work through things with me in a very calm, non-dramatic and cooperative manner. We talk about MB concepts often together. I'm getting to know her EN's well and I love meeting them (one is conversation and I'm a pretty avid listener; I love her voice which helps). We often ask each other "how's your lovebank?"

She has nary a lovebusting behavior as she is very very sweet and considerate and unselfish. I have enjoyed my new-found confidence in refraining from love-buster behaviors; it's been good for all my relationships including with my self. We've promised to let each other know about any behaviors we find unattractive or concerning, so as not to be inadvertently withdrawing love units.

I immensely enjoy being with her and think about her a lot when she's not with me; but it's not like the infatuation in the beginning of the relationship. More of a warm comfortable feeling.

Still working toward blending families and integrating. This just takes time and patience I believe. Fortunately NG and I are enjoying things as they are for now.

opt