I guess it�s time to start my own �after divorce� thread, so here goes.

The (not-so) brief synopsis is that in about May of 09 wife became wayward with the next door neighbor. As things developed into a full-blown EA by July 4th (d-day: �I don�t know if I�m in love with him�), I started to wake up. ILYBNILWY happened in there somewhere, just can�t remember when. To this day I simply don�t know if it was ever physical, she never admitted to it.

I found MB after a couple months of worthless (and probably destructive) MCing. Started a thread in September and was encouraged to expose. In October of last year after WW returned from a trip to her mother�s and tearfully explained �we just weren�t meant for each other� (phone contact was still recurring with OM#1). Exposure ended the EA for the most part, but wayward continued to be wayward and simply transferred her affections to the across the street neighbor (OM#2), a long time friend - recently divorced. By December she was having coffee with him daily, going shopping, and got upset when I suggested that going tanning with him on Christmas Eve (traditionally family day) was not acceptable.

After exposure I was advised by folks on the SAA board to self-expose regarding a series of EA�s and brief (ONS and one 2-week affair) PA�s I had back in 2000-2001. This period of adultery on my part followed a PA on her part which resulted in my OC/DD9. She�s the light and the treasure of my life.

While things were getting more entrenched with OM#2 I had also found evidence of her seeking out (aided by a friend) another OM in the meantime and caught them together at a bar on Nov 22, he was a month away from his divorce being final.

In January WW and DS13 took a two week once-in-a-lifetime trip to Antarctica funded by my Father-in-law. FIL�s pictures revealed WW with yet another OM, all googly eyed and embracing. Email to him after we eventually filed in February read �My divorce will be final in a couple of months.�

Final straw was Jan 22 when I came home early from work (too upset about recently discovered continued contact with OM#1) and found her to be in OM#2�s home, �having coffee.� That�s the day I bought a ticket for the D train.

Mediation was as amicable as possible. Division of assets was more than fair from my end. I stayed in the home, bought her equity, and kept most of the good stuff. Custody is 3 days one week, 4 days the next - 50/50 joint legal and physical. WW just wanted a quick exit and a fantasy D. She got the quick exit, she�s not getting the fantasy D.

Court date was June 18, the divorce was final 90 days later on Sept 16.

I believe recovery has been expedited by lots of introspection and posting here, and getting feedback, following advice (most) from folks with more & different perspective. I�ve read �Boundaries� and attributed a lot of my life�s mix-ups to lack of them. That is my focus now, developing strong and safe boundaries. My focus is also my kids and trying to minimize the damage from the disaster of divorce. I�ve busied myself with projects in my home to make it more my own. I�ve become more active in the church and for the first time since HS attend mass regularly. I quit drinking 10 months ago by personal choice.

I resisted the temptation to date following the court date (in my mind a moment of finality) based on advice received here - and I am glad I followed that advice. After the finality date I asked out a couple of women but it wasn�t in the cards...probably for the best.

I look forward to engaging in active discussions about post-divorce life, dating, or not dating, dealing with loneliness and the inevitable �what-if�s,� and �if-only�s,� and other pitfalls of being a forty-something divorced father of two.

~Optimism

Hi opt, I guess this is my official welcome, even though I've followed your story for quite a while. The one thought that occurred to me while reading your story was, "Divorce is never easy, never perfunctory." Even if it moves without difficulty, there is always some reverberation, or ripple affect. Always.

I'm sorry for you. Now is the time, like the rest of us, to put your life in order. It can be done. It MUST be done, if we are going to move ahead and not stay trapped in our own mental prison.

Sigh.

Thanks Fred for your input.
What I hear you and others saying (in other threads as responses to some of my posts), is to look at being single as an opportunity, and not so much as an affliction (lol).

I certainly will try.

Strangely, the urge to date has waned, I suppose for a number of reasons, but largely from reading posts from good folks like you and others. I'm starting to see that 15 years of being married can only be counter balanced with a reasonable amount of time to...at the very least get the past in the rearview mirror and gain a more whole perspective on what's in front of me. I suppose I'll have more to share with someone, even on a casual basis, once I have gained some experiences with "me", and not "us." The "me" that is no longer half of one entity.

I WANT to move ahead, and not stay trapped in my mental/emotional prison. The knowledge I didn't have before (the lack of which lead to a failed relationship), I'm now starting to become familiar with. I believe in the concepts learned here, especially as they apply to marriage.

My question leading up to this point, and one I hope to grasp soon now that I'm really divorced, is how do I apply those same "marriage" concepts to my life as a single person, and as a single father?

~Optimism

Hey, opt. I don't know if this applies, but I offer it as food for thought.

I heard once in A.A. that it takes about a month of sobriety for every year of drinking to "recover." For me, I speculate that a similar "formula" exists. At least, without actually counting the days, weeks and months, I'm finding that it's safe for me to not get too anxious about dating.

You know from reading my posts that I too, am tempted. Part of me wants to test the waters, and another says I need to be cautious. The lady who I have been attracted to almost seems "safe," in that she's not overly outgoing (and I've seen no sign that she's seeing anyone) and might be suitable for "baby steps" in the scary world of adult dating...

Hey Opt, good to see you're still around.

This board is for post-D "dating and relationships", so I'm not quite ready to move from the other divorce board.

I'm still finding my way as a "single forty-something year old father of two", so I don't have a lot of advice or experience to offer.

I didn't join and it would take a minor miracle for me to ever consider internet dating, but I did browse one of the sites just to get a taste of what was out there. Guess who popped up on the first page? That's right, WxW. I guess she doesn't see the same wisdom of taking time to gain perspective or heal before diving in again.

I also noticed a lot of women list their current status as "separated". Really? They are publicly trolling for men while still legally married? There are men who would consider dating these women? Strange times we live in.

Keep us updated, maybe I'll freshen up my thread.

Wow, I guess I'm old fashioned. I figure if someone would cheat on someone else they'd sure cheat on me. So not interested in that game!
Maybe I don't belong on here either cuz I'm not dating either...since Jim broke up with me my biggest relationship is with my dog...my best relationship too!

{{{{Opt}}}

Boy, you sure do get around!!!!!......

Oh, and you get NEGATIVE points for the lack of creativity on the thread title.......

All kidding aside.......I promised I wouldn't comment any more on dating, though you know all I really wanted for YOU was to heal and learn. And I am very proud of you for doing that!!!!

I don't have much advice in the dating department though.....haven't done since I was a youngin'...... But I know you'll make wise decisions and even if you don't....well, think of them as learning blocks!!!!!

Live well my friend.....YOU deserve it!!!!!!


Not

Hey Sh2p! I know, I know. What can I say, I thought I was ready, lol. Now it's been almost two weeks of being single and let's just say when I stuck my toe in the water it was a lot colder and deeper than I thought it was going to be. More and more I'm deciding to wander around Solitary Island for a while and psych myself up for jumping in eventually.

I did the same thing as you. I joined catholic match a week before D was final to satisfy my curiosity, and get a profile started. Somehow they figured out D was not final yet and booted me off the site. The 12 hours I was a member didn't do much for me. I guess right now, that's just not my thang.

Frankly, I'm discovering I probably wouldn't be much for a date at this juncture. I hardly know how to talk to a woman, I was really never one to flirt or develop any interest in a woman since I was married (except for a period of being wayward, and that was altogether different); so... a little out of practice. I tried to flirt with the deli counter girl last week and as I was walking away, trying to hold her gaze for an extra second I smacked right into a guy who had moved up to my left side to place an order, lol. Smooth.

I understand and agree with you here. I also think there is a ton of ignorance out there. People just don't realize how devastating adultery is. Personally, I've redefined my view of marriage. I was ignorant. Probably why I didn't see the red flags in my ex's behavior; Probably why my marriage was so....unfulfilling for both of us.
Now I know what's right. Now I know how far I have to go. I may be in the extreme minority, but clarity comes with a price I'm willing to pay.

Hope all's well schtoop.

Opt

Hey Not! ((((Not))))

Hey, just cycling through the boards here, lol.

I always have the utmost respect for your opinion, even if I want to bop you for it! Happy to hear what you have to say. You've been with me here for a long time, so I really appreciate your encouragement. I have a long way to go, but life is a journey.

I'm glad you and others have cautioned me against rushing into dating, even casually (if there is such a thing). I am starting to embrace the freedom of being single. I'm also recognizing how that freedom would be encroached upon even with the most unserious of 'relationships.' And I'm also realizing that, sadly, I have not ever really been single. For no extended period in my life even in college would I consider myself to have been "on my own." I think that tells me something...

Finally finished the Boundaries Book. My Mother had taken a class and had a work book with no writing in it, so I may do a little home-study on it. Can't hurt. What little I've managed to understand about the concepts so far has been very powerful in my life already.

Always nice to have you checking in Not2. I hope you came out okay with your daughter and her little dating game.

Not sure what I "deserve" as I take full responsibility for the state of my situation at this point in time. However, what good positive things come my way, I will gladly accept.

Later 'gater,
opt

\That's riiiiiiiiiiiight.
Of course you do, silly.

Then again, I suppose we could ask to start our own board called "After Divorce: NOT dating"

If I raced you to join, who do you think would be first?

LOL, I don't know Fred, you're the runner.

These days, opt, I run at the speed of walk.

LoL, well, in that case Fred, it would probably be a tie.

**edit**

Well, I'm meeting a woman for coffee tomorrow afternoon. Not a 'date.' We're going to "meet up" and "catch up." Maybe that's what the kids are calling it these days. Someone I used to talk to frequently on the phone for business. Only met her once in person. I was encouraged (back in April) by another colleague that she always thought I was nice. Finally I called her and it's been texting ever since (I guess that's how it works nowadays). I have my boundaries all accounted for. I know what I'm ready for and what I'm not ready for. Looking forward to a nice time and some fun conversation.

Opt

"meet up" postponed. Oh well.

Sorry to hear that Opt. Any update? Hope you guys rescheduled the meeting.

Hey milkshake, thanks for checking in. That particular woman is very busy trying to find a new job I guess; she's cancelled a few times and...well, whatever, I guess this is the dating world.

I haven't been on here much, but I checked your sitch. You're getting good advice here.

I am actually going to dinner tonight with woman who my friend has been trying to set me up with for some time. I spoke with her on the phone a couple times this week and she sounds cool. I'm trusting my friend to some extent and let's face it it's just a date. It's not like we're buying real-estate together or something. I have no idea what she looks like or hardly anything about her; so I'm looking forward to just asking some questions and basking in the presence of a female for a little while.

I exercised some poor judgement and got involved with one of those internet dating things. Got to talking to a woman with the texting and emails (standard faire these days I guess). She sounded nice. Then I just found out she's "separated." Two months single, never met the woman, and now I have to figure out how to break up with her, LOL. (ohhh, the drama)

Opt

Dinner tonight! Yay for you. Hope you two have a nice time together.

Just tell her "still married" is a deal breaker for you, wish her well, yada, yada...

Thanks KC. I feel stupid about it b/c I think it was in her "profile" and I just missed it. Maybe some sort of subconscious wishful thinking. (or maybe it wasn't there at first and she updated it a couple days ago, I dunno). It won't be a tremendously hard conversation, but I still feel kinda bad cause we were planning to get together this weekend. Oh well.

As for the date this evening, it was a lot of fun. We went to a really nice place on the water. Neither of us were that hungry so we just shared a plate of muscles. The waitress knew not to bug us every 5 minutes, so it was the right place as far as the service.

She talked a lot, which was fine with me. She is adorable, she has a great voice and I was in heaven just sitting there listening and watching her move around like only a lady can and smell so good. Her laugh is intoxicating. It's been so long since I just heard a woman (who was interested in me) laugh sincerely like she was having fun and was relaxed.

She thinks I'm good looking (maybe her vision isn't so good, I don't know...) and fun to be around. The night ended with nice kiss and plans to get together Saturday.

Not bad for a blind date, and totally cool for the first date I've had since who-knows how long. Unfortunately, "dates" with the ex stopped being "dates" a looooong time ago...

Maybe I could've waited longer after the divorce was final (2 months ago). But I'm definitely glad I got this first one out of my system. I needed that. This girl ain't "the one" but I really enjoyed myself and look forward to another nice time this weekend. Realistically, I've put some safeguards in place to ensure I don't get too involved (locked up much of my 'free' time with various commitments). Plus, she's going to another state to live for 5 months this winter; leaving within a month I guess. Being vulnerable and knowing it, I think those are good speed bumps.

Any thoughts?

Opt

Sounds like you REALLY enjoyed your first date! Good for you!

Well, if you already know that she will be away for 5 months, I can see why you would like to put some safeguards in place. It will all depend on how quickly you two 'connect'...., then this 5-month separation can be a pretty tough one. If you intentionally put some distance, you won't get hurt but the separation will not be hard either.

Why is she going there? For work?

It sounds like you had a really enjoyable date, that's great! Being as everything went well, how is it you already know she is "not the one"? Yes, knowing she's going to be gone for 5 months right away is a good speed bump, and God only knows speed bumps are probably a good and safe thing.

Good for you man!! Does she have a sister?

Aww thanks you guys are great. It's so good to get the perspectives of trusted folks here who I know are in the same boat as me and have been through some similar experiences. Not to mention have knowledge of MB principles and can help me apply them to this crazy world of after-divorce life.

@milkshake: you're right, the next month I suppose could be a set up for the tone of the 5 months she'll be away (a planned re-location which she has access to through work.) I have no idea what lies ahead though, I'm just taking it a day at a time. On a positive note we talked on the phone today and both expressed that we had fun together. I have to admit that's a really nice feeling.

@KayC: I really appreciate your words. Who knows right? I was unfair to make a judgement about the future based on just one meeting. Again, I think one step at a time is wise. Right. I will be careful and keep my priorities straight. Thanks.

Opt

....

Was it worth the wait????.....



I'm glad it went well for you......truly I am.....

Not

Hey Opt, I have to say I was amused at your recounting of your foray back into the world of dating.

If you are ready and are safeguarding yourself against getting too serious too quickly, I say go for it.

I'm about 3 months out from the official divorce, and I can tell you that waiting a year ain't gonna happen. I don't want to jump into any serious relationship, but it would be nice to have some female company again.

I may have to bite the bullet and join one of these internet dating sites. Or, maybe your friend could set me up as well.

What does this mean?

AGG

I was curious about that too.

Wow you guys are tough. Can't get away with anything around here.

When KayC first questioned me on this, it really made me think. Not sure I've come up with an answer as to why I felt that way after the first date. Or why I chose to make the statement. I'm thinking I was allowing "logic" to prevail - the logic of probability that literally the 1st woman I go out with after a divorce could be the woman I wind up actually spending the rest of my life with. You've now got me questioning my "logic" - logic that got me into a marriage that, in retrospect, was not built on the right principles.

I have tried to get myself into an emotional state of strength to not fall into the "rebound" routine. Was telling myself 'she's not the one' my way of keeping emotional distance?

What concerns me was that I may have hastily come to some sort of weak conclusion that this person couldn't ultimately meet my needs for the long term (and maybe that I couldn't meet hers). That's bordering on DJ territory. She has some history - married to an alcoholic who also was unfaithful; did I let that mar my impression of her? (like I don't have some history...good grief!). She doesn't necessarily meet the picture I had in my head of the 'one' (she's a little older than I envisioned); now I'm wondering if I let that throw me off.

I think I need to go back to my EN questionnaire and make sure I have a strong sense of what's most important to me. Then, as this progresses, if it does, I'll be able to evaluate on the fly if there are flags or deal breakers lurking.

Thing is, I've talked to her a few more times. She's turning out to be even more nice, and sweet, and sincere, and honest than I thought at first. She seems to appreciate my position and was real sensitive to the fact that I'm only two months out (her D was pretty traumatic and was final about a year ago). She's voiced respect for the notion of taking one step at a time, while she also really digs me --now there's a feeling I haven't had in a really long time.


Well, we're supposed to go to a halloween party tomorrow night. I was flattered that she wanted to take me since she'll see some old friends. I feel a little pressure, but I think I'm up to the task; I'll try not to spill or break anything, lol.

I think I'll stick with honesty and openness, let her know how I feel about things and see where that goes. I already know what happens without O&H.

Opt

You already know the answer to that. I owe it all to you and others who joined the chorus a few months ago when I thought I was ready to take the leap. You helped me recognize some important boundaries that I had yet to evaluate properly. I really can't thank you enough.

Yes, it was worth the wait. In clear conscience and a position of relative strength I was able to enjoy myself and the company of a beautiful woman with many similar interests and experiences. And who knows what lies ahead, but we've already started off on solid ground as far as I can tell at this point.

Opt

Shtoop! thanks, man. No way not to grow stronger after going through what you have. You'll be much appreciated out there, when you're ready. That's for sure.

Opt

Well, my point in asking was that you don't need to make any decision at this point. Time will tell if she's the one.

What I would urge you to do, because I can see you going in that direction already, is to really hold off on the "exclusive" idea. You are too fresh from a divorce to put all your eggs in one basket at this point. You are likely to do what most of us did in your shoes - fall head over heels for the first person that was nice to us.

I would suggest that you see this lady again, but maintain all your other options, go out on dates with other women if you can, before falling into a "relationship". Try to focus on what you like about this woman, how you think she meets your needs, and whether she has any characteristics that you do not want in a partner. Remember, this is an evaluation process, not a race to get exclusive.

Sorry for being a bit of a wet blanket, just asking you to go slow. A lot of people say they "go slow" while they are in fact totally involved; I am saying hold off on being involved beyond your knowledge of this woman.

AGG

It sounds like it's going really well. I agree that it's way too soon for "exclusivity" and time will tell. Meanwhile, enjoy yourself!

Well, how did the Halloween date turn out? Fill us in Opt. Since I've broke up with my long distance girlfriend, I�m living my life vicariously thru you!!

Hope your date was another fun time together, Opt! Good for you TTF, you finally broke up with your g.f.!

Well, time has told, lol. I'll elaborate later.

I kept this in mind as we had our 2nd and 3rd dates over the weekend. You're totally right, and I'm glad you were kind enough to "wet blanket" me a little. I'll admit I could feel myself becoming quite smitten and could easily have gone the head-over-heals route, at least at first. She definitely has many good qualities.

This is excellent advice and I appreciate you saying it AGG. The evaluation process took place with pretty definitive results, but I'm not necessarily sure what to do about them. If I've identified characteristics that I "do not want in a partner," does that mean I can't see her again? We had a good time. I could envision other good times. She isn't looking for a "boyfriend" - made that pretty clear. And with dating being (as Gg puts it) high energy/low yield occupation, at this point I'd almost rather go with the medium yield and then focus other efforts on other things as well (like continued recovery, regaining independence, etc).

I have another problem with all this. With the limited (but somewhat intense) experience I had with this woman over the weekend, I'm not sure I have it in my nature to see more than one woman at a time. The barriers include not having enough time to hardly see one at a time, not having the mental capacity to keep everything straight, and quite frankly feeling like a cheater (even in the absence of big intimacy). As I was going through this in my mind throughout the weekend, I'm thinking I wouldn't have minded if she said she had other dates planned, but I just couldn't envision myself going out with someone else (a bassackwards way of not being exclusive, huh?). Again, the time commitments I have on my hands right now makes it exceedingly difficult to be non-exclusive. Just a little quandary I'm trying to work out.

Okay, I probably was in a bit of an emotional tailspin at the beginning of the weekend, but now I've reigned it back in. Fortunately, I think she feels the same way; gut feeling.

Thanks again for the advice and for taking the time, AGG; it was very helpful.

Opt

lol, TTF. You know what they say about gentlemen never kissing and telling. Let's just say there were some good moments... but you'll do just fine, I'm sure of that.

Opt

Thanks everyone for your support and caring. I read through threads here and often think I don't have much to offer, and yet those same folks are here for me. It's quite humbling.

Just to recap my above posts. Halloween weekend date was Saturday night. Again I found a very sweet, caring, very attractive, sensitive woman who was into me and seemed to bask in my energy as I did in hers. Very cool.

The conversation remained quite heavily one-sided, however, and this would continue when we got together again Sunday afternoon for late lunch and football watching in a fun Halloween atmosphere.

It became clear that as much as she insisted she's over the ex, she ain't. You don't talk about someone as much as she did if you've recovered and detached. It became laborious. I don't care to talk about myself anyway, but I'd like a date to be interested in at least something about me; she didn't really seem to be.

So, even though the ultimate nature of the conversation didn't do much for me, it was really really nice to spend time in the company of a beautiful sensuous woman; she (I know I keep going back here) smelled so good, and laughed so cute and pretty, and filled up her space so elegantly and gracefully. There's not much I would trade this weekend for.

I'd go out with her again (next opportunity wouldn't be til next Sunday and then the following Saturday - I'm a busy boy). But if she loses my number, I won't be devastated.

Opt

Opt, you are no different than many of us were post divorce. After being married for many years, the idea of dating numerous people does seem counterintuitive. Hence this:


However, I can assure that this is exactly the wrong attitude to take with you into dating. You are not married, and you are entitled (and encouraged) to look around. By getting "serious" with the first nice smelling (and looking) body, you are really depriving yourself of learning what you need and want in a partner. Yes, the nice smell and looks can count for a lot, but they can never make up for somebody being wrong for you. Three dates in a couple of days is too much, and does not give you the chance to reflect and to think about what you learned on each one. And before you know it, poof, you're involved up to your ears.

It sounds like you did manage to see some red flags, and I commend you for that . But given that, why plan the next date, and why pre-empt the option of seeing other women?

Dr. Harley encourages folks to date 20-30 people before choosing a partner. I never dated that much before getting married the first time, but I did the second time. And I can tell you that it makes a lot of sense. It gives you the ability to evaluate people without feeling the need or pressure to "get involved" before you really know them. It gives you the ability to say "I like A's smell and looks, but I like B's humor, and I like C's conversations with me, etc"...

You are fresh from divorce, do not look at dating as "spouse shopping" - look at it as a chance to gain some relationship experience, and when the right one comes along, you'll know. Hint - the right one will not be the first or second or third woman you meet, but that's OK - you'll learn a lot even from Ms. Wrongs.

AGG

Wow, this is deep, AGG. I learned a lot from this as well! Didn't know that Dr. Harley encourages to date 20-30 people! But this includes casual dates, not having '20-30 relationships', right? I mean, I will die if I have to have 20-30 relationships before settling........

Well that settles it. I'm never getting married again!

I just turned 59 and I don't think I've had that many dates in my life. And I've now been married and divorced twice. I guess it also explains why.

I'm horrible at dating. No, I take that back, I'm horrible at asking for a date. I am a gentleman and know how to conduct myself on a date, I just can't get to the starting line.

I'm reminded of my very favorite saying about running: "The miracle isn't that I finished, the miracle is that I had the courage to start." I simply lack the courage to start -- which is asking for the date.

And to do this 20-30 times? I'm sunk.

You are too funny Fred, but I agree!

Let's just say you can manage to have one date a week. This assumption itself is VERY aggressive. We are all busy here, having a brand new date every week, that's overwhelming and unrealistic. But even at that pace, it will take 5 - 8 months! If you have a new date once a month, then it well take 2 - 3 years..., just to go through all of these new faces!

We need to live for a VERY long time...........or stop working so that we can have 2-3 dates a week, which is just as equally unrealistic

On a second thought, you know what, maybe 20-30 dates does not mean that you have to have 20-30 dates with 20-30 different people. Among them you might have the same dates; if you can double count, then this number seems to be a bit more manageable. I'm sticking to this idea

It took me 8 years to get remarried, I don't regret waiting .

Sorry, but let me barge in on this thread.

Way to get back in the game, Opt! I agree with all of AGG's sentiments. This is the time to shop around, enjoy meeting new people, and not be in any hurry to find the next "right one". Just enjoy being with these women for their company, there are plenty out there that are in your same shoes and not in any hurry to lose their independence. As long as you're up front about where you are and what you are looking for right now, there is nothing to feel guilty about. You are not "cheating", and the only harm is to your wallet, LOL.

I have to confess that I have entered the sordid world of online dating. I was very reluctant, but it is a much better alternative than bars and I was going to go a llllloooonnng time before meeting someone the conventional way, especially as shy as I am.

All I can say is WoW! It seems if you have all your teeth, most of your hair, minimal gut, and can string a few coherent sentences together, then you are a much sought after commodity.

I have one date scheduled tomorrow with a woman who was a former pastor at our church and is now with another across town. Don't know why she's divorced, but I can only guess that adultery can find its way into any profession. Always found her attractive and she's great to talk to.

Have another date with a woman who has been divorced for 20 years. This woman is VERY attractive, and quite frankly out of my league. This one makes me nervous, so we'll see how it goes.

I've also been contacted by an ex-girlfriend of my brother's from many years ago. This one's a little awkward, don't think I'll actually follow through with a date with her.

Anyway, it's a whole new world out there and I think I'm going to enjoy exploring a little.

Excellent Schtoop! You'll have fun just asking questions and talking some more. Ain't nobody out of your league, either Schtoop. You have a lot to offer. We all know that from being with you here for these last months. It's just up to her to find out how awesome you are.

Opt

You asked if you needed to feel a certain way if you were to continue to date her... I would answer it depends on if you are wife shopping or just out to enjoy yourself. If it's the latter, did you enjoy yourself? Therein lies your answer. I would also be frank with her and mention you'd rather not hear so much about her ex, that it's the two of you enjoying company at the moment. (She needs to vent to her family, friends, therapist...not you.) It's a common mistake many of us have made when we were newly divorced and had someone kind enough to point it out to us.

Right. This philosophy might be directed to those in their 20's; folks that haven't been through a marriage. At 20, average 3 dates/year gets you married by 30, and well informed. Personally, I think my experience counts for something so I'm not necessarily waiting until the 30 mark to start officially spouse shopping.





Opt

Fred, seriously. You've defeated yourself so stop telling yourself this nonsense.
Try a different way of saying it, maybe you're getting caught up in the wording you hear in your head. There's always the "we should have a cup of coffee sometime, I would enjoy that." --not really asking out, but definitely putting it out there for a response.
You could do like me "My friend ------ gave me your number and said you might be interested in going out with me."
worked like a charm, lol.

If you're good on a date, think of how much you're depriving her by not asking her out.

Opt

Thanks so much KayC for addressing this question that was still lingering to me. Definitely not wife-shopping. I did enjoy myself and that was nice. She did too I think, and as I said she actually stated she wasn't looking for a boyfriend, which was fine with me.

As for being more assertive, I appreciate that suggestion. I was not kind enough to point it out. I am genuinely interested and was happy to listen, but I bet she would have appreciated it if I had just put the kibosh on further discussion of her ex. She actually said "I've said too much" and then would go on again. My instincts were just to let her talk, but it did get old after a while. I'd try to change the subject, then eventually it would get back to the old subject. Good grief. Maybe there wasn't really much I could do; turns out she might be a little off anyway - I'll elaborate later.
Anyway, I learned a lot from the experience and processing it here with you folks has helped a lot.

opt

I appreciate the support, opt. This is something that has troubled me my entire life -- and I'm not a spring chicken anymore!

I'm not sure where it comes from. The fear of rejection doesn't bother me in any other endeavor, but somehow the prospect of asking a woman out on a date paralyzes me.

A psychiatrist would have a field day trying to dope this out.

If the fear of rejection (which is normal, by the way) does not bother you much, then just go for it! It's just a woman you know..., in the end we are all humans, we like good food, nice conversation, having fun, wanting to love and to be loved....

Look at the celebrities. With the endless funding, fame, beauty, plastic surgery (lol), etc., they still have exactly same issues as we deal with day in day out. You are no different.

If asking someone straight out makes you feel uncomfortable, you can flirt a bit with her to see her reaction. And I don�t mean sexual flirtation, but innocent and fun conversation. Say you like to joke around and be a goof. You do this with her, and if she does not �get it�, and then maybe you don�t need to ask her out. You like her reaction, then stay casual and ask her if she is in a mood for a nice hot cup of coffee. As a woman, I prefer when a guy asks me out casually initially, unless I have known this guy for a while.

Opt, perhaps a gentle way to bring it up to her would be...when she starts to go on about her ex, interrupt at the first good opening and say "I'm much more interested n learning about YOU than your ex!" If she STILL goes on about him you might say, "He doesn't sound like anyone I'd care to know, can we talk about YOU instead?"

Oh Fred, you seem like such a nice person, if you were in Oregon, I'd ask you to coffee! (and I'm not even interested in dating) Don't sell yourself short, I'm sure you have a lot to offer and are very interesting. Just pretend you feel great and interesting and you'll come across that way...your feelings about it will catch up eventually.

You are soooooooooo right KayC. I thought of this (even the exact same wording) just about the time you were mentioning this situation above (about her bringing up the ex). Doh!
It was me just trying to change the subject; but I should have just come out and said it straight - what you said above. Oh well, I learned a lot from the whole thing, and as usual you folks here have helped me learn even more than I would've on my own. I won't make that mistake with the next one.

Opt

My thoughts are that if someone talks nonstop about their ex, the problem is not that they are talking about them, but they are obviously still mentally consumed by them. Which suggests to me that they are not ready for dating yet. So getting them to stop talking is not really fixing the underlying issue.

And like someone said, most of us did the same thing right after our divorces, because, well, because we were not yet ready either .

AGG

ooh, my one thousandth post! lol.

AGG, there's a good point. Very good.
I still wished I would have addressed the whole situation a little differently, but in the end, yeah, it doesn't appear she's really moved on.

Your statement is encouraging to me however: My ex never crossed my mind the whole time. Not once.

~Opt

AGG is a man with lots of wisdom

Indeed, Milkshake. We're lucky to have him.

Just to elaborate on something I mentioned above and never got back to:
Halloween Date has evaporated like a ghostly apparition. On Monday after, I got a call back from her in which she pretty much alluded to the concept that she wasn't interested in talking to me, at least for the rest of the night. I was a little dumbfounded, but calls wouldn't go through - voicemail full.

Haven't heard from her since.

I'll admit I'm a little heart-broken. I really liked her. And not knowing what happened is a little off-putting. I was really sweet to that girl. I can't think of anything I did to make her be like that.

Oh well. Since I have the luxury of making up my own story, I've decided that maybe I was simply too much for her. Or maybe that she's a Russian spy.

~Opt

I like this one.

tc, your sense of humor must be as bad as mine - I thought that was pretty funny too. I don't know why, it doesn't even make any sense, lol.

Sh2p!!! If you're around, I'm high-jacking my own threyad for you. I wanna know how this went:
Opt

I'm a twisted dude Opt, it's just the way I was made I suppose.

Well, in that case TCCG, I think we're both going to be just fine, lol.

opt

That WAS a very good point AGG...yes she's still wrapped up in her past. Russian spy, huh? Maybe that's what happened with my exfiance? LOL

Yes do please tell us about the other two. And why does the one who's been divorced 20 years intimidate you so?

Those are schtoop's. I'm hoping he'll chime in too with an update .

Meanwhile, I've moved on from the Halloween Heartbreak. Met a woman thru some on-line thing. We had been talking for a little while, finally got together for coffee last Sunday. 2nd date planned for Saturday. She's pretty cool, we had fun.

Tryin' to go easy.

Opt

I've gotta hand it to you, I'm not even remotely interested in talking to someone on line or anywhere, just don't trust people anymore!

Now you're talking!

AGG

Alright, since you asked....

I'm going to go ahead and start my own thread on this forum and stop hijacking Opt's.

C'mon over for the adventures in dating.

Awwww schtoop, it was a pleasure having you on my thread. Kinda like having a cool roommate for a while, lol.

--See you over your new "house."

Opt

I love that, really cute response!1

Haven�t updated in a while, so here goes.

I�ve been seeing this woman who�s about my age for a couple of weeks. She�s 41. Just out of a 5 year marriage. No kids. She works hard and has her independence. She�s genuine as the day is long and a little naive but with a pure spirit that I can sense. She has boundaries (although has trouble enforcing some of them around me...). She�s attractive but not glamorous; naturally beautiful and she�s confident like nothing I�ve ever seen. She�s emotionally mature and sure of herself.

I broke all the rules with her - 1. Don�t get too emotionally attached to the first one that gives you attention, 2. Don�t get too physical too fast, 3. Don�t date exclusively.
I knew what was happening but I didn�t want to stop it. I got caught up in it.

As the dates became more serious and more intimate, so did the talk of the future. Way into the future, including from AGG�s list (like who�s going to move in with whom, etc.). I started to feel suffocated. Unfortunately, when I expressed my feelings (on Tuesday), I got a lot of push-back. �You need to this...and you need to that...� and a lot of semi-accusatory questions �what�s changed?� and �what did I say?�

Not ready for that kind of intensity. And I definitely don�t need the drama.

So Wednesday I asked her to not call me for a couple of days. A request she honored. We were to go out today, Saturday. This a.m. I texted (she�s in NY with friends) and I said I couldn�t go out and I�d explain more when we talked. Haven�t heard from her all day.

I feel kinda bad. She was really into me and I wasn�t ready for the kind of commitment she was looking for. I can�t get into a LTR right now, GMAB.

So, what did I learn?

Not ready to date. Not like that anyway.

I wasn�t trying to be careless, and I never lied to her, but I definitely have to be more careful.


opt

Sorry Opt. Dunno what to say except sorry my friend.

Travis

Hey Travis, thanks for checking in. I know you have a lot going on in your situation, it's nice of you to take the time for others as well.

I haven't heard from her and that makes me think we're through. I'll miss her, but I'm not so concerned about me. I know she's disappointed and I feel bad about that.

However, I woke up this morning thinking that I never said anything to mislead her. I don't want to be that guy, not after all I've been through. Ultimately, I feel like I stepped in with the intervention as soon as I felt like things were spinning out of control. And certainly I could have let it go on for quite a while.

Opt

You know Opt, I think it's easy to get caught up in the good feelings. You did the right thing by putting on the brakes when you got uncomfortable though; you're right in that it could have gone on much longer with a lot more potential for... mayhem. Good for you for recognizing that. Probably doesn't make you feel much better though...

Hope you're having a decent weekend; trying to keep busy myself but it's challenging. Taking two of the kiddos out for a hike in a few. Fresh air is a beautiful thing!

Travis

Opt, sorry to see this outcome, but really, this is moving WAY too fast. Two weeks after the first date you are discussing who is moving in?? The other thing you sort of mentioned that would be a red flag is that she's "just out" of her marriage. That makes it TWO people who are not yet ready for a relationship trying to date each other, an accident waiting to happen. BTDT .

How about revisiting the idea of postponing exclusivity for a number of weeks after first meeting someone? It'll do you (and her) good .

AGG

Here's a question I've been wondering, AGG.

Is exclusivity (say, a month after beginning to date) considered okay if you've known the person well over a year before you started dating? Or is the clock somehow reset?

I don't think of exclusivity as a function of a clock, but rather as a function of how well you know the other person.

If you know the person well, such as through previous "friends" relationship, that is a definite plus, and counts for a lot. You probably can go into "exclusive" dating very quickly.

The whole point about delaying exclusivity is that exclusivity should not be granted lightly. When it is, it often leads to the awkward situations we see here time and again - people become exclusive, some surprise pops up, one person wants out, and the other accuses them of giving them false promises, etc. Dating always involves a certain amount of faith in the other person, but exclusivity is a bit of a promise, and should not be given lightly. I have learned this lesson the hard way too many times; each time thinking that I knew the person enough, getting "serious", and then finding out some "little" detail that the other person "neglected" to tell me, that was a dealbreaker.

Anyway, in your case, if you know the person fairly well, you are better off. Just realize that even in this case, there may be some facts that were never revealed to you as a friend, but would or should be revealed to you as a dating partner, and that may change your view of the person. So again, use caution .

AGG

Hey Opt, there you go again with the parallel worlds.

I'm at the same place you were, getting caught up with moving too fast. The only difference is that I haven't put the brakes on yet, not sure I want to.

All I can say is that you're doing the right thing by know what your limitations are right now and pulling things back in. I know it sucks, what if you're blowing a chance at what might turn out to be a really great thing? Lots of self-doubt there.

But, I certainly know how easy it is to get caught up in a new relationship. No wonder affairs are so addicting. Think of everything we've gotten caught up into, then throw in a dash of secrecy and adventure. Probably what it feels like.

Like I said, I'm kind of in the same boat you are without putting on the brakes yet. We're not yet exclusive and haven't started talking the long term plans, but definitely in the stage where you want to see each other every possible opportunity.

My big dilema is that she wants to meet the boys and not be exclude from what is now half (or more) of my life. I think I'm ready for her to meet them, but I want to do it for the right reasons and not for selfish desires. The whole thing has me really conflicted, and I even went so far as to tell the WXW that introducing her to the kids was something I was ready to do.

Talk about stirring up a hornet's nest! But, I'm not going to let her control my life anymore, either. It's just hard to know what the right thing to do is.

Thanks for letting me vent on your thread. I'd rather deal with these issues than an unfaithful spouse, especially when it feel so good to be together.

Good luck with your new interest. Hope ya'll come around and straighten things out. Remember what you've learned here, it wouldn't be a bad thing to call or meet her and talk all these things out. Just be honest and let her know how you feel.

Wow, I'm kind of shocked! It sounds almost as if she's looking to replace her husband...real fast! You'd do good to run. If she's as special as you say, it'll keep, but something tells me she'll hitch up with the next guy, real fast. She's going for what she is comfortable with.
Try to slow way down with the next one. Don't call every day, keep it on a lighter tone. Good luck, it's all a live and learn!

My ex-fiance and I got into our relationship too fast too...against my better judgment I let him talk me into exclusivity. Look where that ended!

KayC, thanks so much for that insightful response. I don't know how you picked up on that key element from the brief description of my situation but you stated the sentiment that was rattling around in the back of my mind: She looking for a "replacement." Well, actually I was considering myself more of an "upgrade" but you get the drift, lol. I actually felt a couple of times like I was ultimately being expected to step into a certain role. And all that in a matter of a few short weeks.
Anyway, with your assessment I think I'll try to back away as gracefully as possible. I actually did get a text from her Monday. She was cool and conciliatory and not putting pressure on me or anything; but I will try to just fade off into the sunset. Easier said than done because the SF was the best I've ever had without question (and yes that's a reflection of my M'd life, sad but true). However, you're totally right, KCS, I'm strapping on the Reeboks.

Opt

Schtoop!! Always good to see you, man, even if it is just like looking in the mirror, lol!

Yeaaaaaaah, no. After further reflection I don't think I'm missing out on any sipping-tea-on-the-porch-at-70-together type of relationship. Besides, like Kaycee said, "if it's real it will keep." Who knows what happens in a year once things have gone around once or twice?

You know I'm going to try to hold you back on that one. . Are you still in the 'infatuation' stage (thanks AGG from another thread)? Anyway I think the whole thing takes on an entirely new dimension once the kids are introduced. Why don't you just continue to enjoy each other for a while? The kids will always be there. You can't be all kissy/lovey-dovey in front of them anyway, right?
On a side note: My bonehead exww had a date on the night before thanksgiving and you know what she did? She invited him to family dinner for the next day (the loser had "no place to go," gmab)!! Her whole family and my kids were there of course. Words can't even describe my horror. I had a very serious talk with the kids after that.

Dude you're always welcome here! The beer's in the fridge, just keep your boots off my coffee table!

Yeah, I was pretty much honest and not really impressed with her response to that. She was not happy when I said I couldn't promise exclusivity. She was real real sweet, right up until when she wasn't so sweet. I'll never forget the good times though, kwim?

Yeah, I had dinner with the woman I met volunteering on Thanksgiving. We had a great time. She's way more conservative, mature, a bit older than me, cute and in good shape, pretty eyes, classy. She's been D'd 10 years and seems to have a good handle on the whole dating situation. We're going to play pool on Sunday afternoon.

A-frickin'-men brother!

Opt

Opt buddy, at the risk of sounding like a prude, are you kidding us here?? Two weeks after the first date and you are at the SF stage? Not to be a pot calling the kettle black , but when you are approaching a relationship this way, you hopefully know a priori that this will be a physical relationship rather than one that leads to anything meaningful in the longterm. Right? I have yet to see a relationship that turns sexual this quickly lead to anything good down the line.

AGG

AGG not to sound like a dog, but what can I say? One thing lead to another.
However, I appreciate your advice. I will show my ignorance here though: why does a quick jump to physical intimacy preclude a meaningful relationship?
Be gentle. I truly want to understand this and didn't date much before I got married, haven't had many "partners."
Opt

Yup, I get that .


I didn't have many partners before I got married either, and after divorce, I somehow still viewed sex as a matter of "scoring" (sorry to any ladies that are reading). So, the sooner, the better, I thought. Then I started realizing that I was having sex with women whom I really did not know well enough to be having sex with (does that make sense?), but it was kinda too late to slow down (the horse was out of the barn, so to speak). And, I noticed that it was difficult to build any emotional intimacy once physical intimacy has been introduced.

So I read a ton of books, like "If the Buddha Dated", "Boundaries in Dating", and "Passionate Marriage", and became a convert. I started believing and understanding that emotional intimacy should precede physical intimacy, and that sexual bonding should be one of the last ways in which you bond with your partner, not the first. Another phrase I heard that I agree with is that the best sex starts between the ears, not between the legs.

None of this obviously proves that early sex will prevent a good longterm relationship. It just means that once you let that genie out of the bottle, you can't put it back in, and in many ways, you'll be in over your head. I mean if you are already having sex, aren't you somewhat committed to the other person? Haven't you made some sort of promises? All to a person whom you really hardly know, despite what your hormones may be telling you.

From my personal experiences in dating, I found that if I got to know someone gradually, became exclusive after a month or two, and then allowed intimacy to take place after three months or so, that the sex was actually much better than if we took a shortcut. I was bonding fully with that woman, not just physically, and that made a huge difference for me.

YMMV of course.

Here is a good quote from some researchers:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/28/AR2010102808034.html

And another article:

http://ezinearticles.com/?Make-Your-Relationship-Last---Delay-Sex&id=3801416

AGG

Opt

BOUNDARIES

BOUNDARIES

BOUNDARIES


Go back and re-read.....(and ya might want to pick up the dating version like AGG suggested...... )

And while you continue learning and growing.......think on this

What does making love mean to you?

What are you conveying to your partner when you engage in love making?

Not

Ps....knucklehead.......{{{{Opt}}}}

I applaud your honesty and candor here. One thing that sex does is cloud the thinking. It can often be used (by women) as a tool for manipulation...trying to reel him in hook, line and sinker. Another obvious reason to avoid it. Not to mention there's too many things to catch out there and it's harder than you'd think to know who you can trust. Be careful and go slower! Try to just enjoy yourself and get to know the person/s you are dating. Time enough for all the rest.

BTW, it's easier for me to be objective with OTHER people's situations, much harder when I'm in it! LOL

But hey, you must be doing pretty well, I don't even run across people I'd remotely want to have sex with! I'm surprised she put out so fast, unless she was trying to reel you in, because women are attracted primarily through their emotions, rather than visual like men...I'm sure it's a combination for both, but still it's different for men and women. And I'm sure she did want to upgrade with her replacement, who wouldn't? I'd just be leery of anyone that wanted to cash in so fast. Something to be said for taking time...

Ma-a-a-a-a-a-ybe I shouldn't have said anything. . . but then again think of all the fun we would have missed!

I have the kids tonight so I can't respond to these posts now, but I want to say I sure do appreciate all the input. I'm a little embarrassed and officially all of the dopamine and serotonin has now drained out of my system, lol. But, I've found from this board that I learn more from openness and honesty (there's a concept). I respect people's opinions here (even if it's brutal) and I appreciate the time you folks spend to try to save me from future trouble.

opt

I'm staying out of this one.

Now Opt, I didn't scare ya did I???....

(I actually meant to put a smiley behind the "knucklehead"..... )

Do you remember about a year ago when Lexxy asked you a really hard question?


That's why I asked the above questions. I realize you're dipping your toes into the dating world. It's kind of your oyster right now....

But the thing to remember while you are enjoying the buffet, is what is important to YOU. Those are the things that that you put boundaries on.

I don't know if you have seen this, but a boundary is not the thing you cherish, its the PROTECTION you put around those things. Sex is all new and quite available right now, but instead of remember AFTERWARD what it means to you, the importance of it, its good to figure that out NOW, so you can defend it when it comes around the next time......

It's all a part of your growth......

Keep posting and please be forthcoming. Its good to have a sounding board during this time. And in all honesty, we all make mistakes and do stupid things....even ESPECIALLY me...

I'm glad to hear you and the kids are doing well....and about WXW- why am I NOT surprised....

Thank God you are such a wonderful dad!!!!! Have a wonderful holiday.....

Not

Folks were nice enough to give their input so I'll try to respond in kind, without getting bogged down in the details. It sounds like pretty much a chorus and I would expect no less since the philosophy on this issue around here is pretty clear and goes along with building a strong life-long relationship; it is Marriage Builders after all. I appreciate the input because as I stated when I started this thread, one of my concerns was how to apply the concepts, which I believe in, to the dating/after divorce stage. You folks have done a very good job of making clear how that is done, at least as for as the physical part of a dating relationship. I'm just glad I didn't know then what I know now.

@AGG: I appreciate your sharing your experience with me. I will definitely read those books. I am an avid reader when it comes to something that can help me understand something I'm interested in. I didn't know there was a Boundaries in Dating book, but Not2Fun turned me on to the basic version and it has been a big influence. The articles are excellent and mean even more since you referred them.

@Not: those are very insightful questions. I will do some more reading. And plenty of thinking as I move forward. Promise.

@KayC: In retrospect there were probably some "reeling in" attempts going on. Of course there's always the possibility that I'm just that irresistible, .
While my Boundaries may be weak in some areas, they are also exactly what saved me from being reeled in however. The strength I've gained in myself from going through the nightmare of infidelity and divorce, with support and reflection, gave me the power to simply move on when it became clear things weren't right. No self-guessing, just self-protection.

@Schtoop: h-ha, luvya, man!

@not again: yeah, I must be a knucklehead for sure because I'm just not seeing what Lexxxy's question has to do with my situation now. Frankly, I'm not sure I ever quite grasped it in the first place. At the time I think she was saying my infidelity from before wasn't a big deal then but ww's was in the present (highlighting the double standard).
~You know I always appreciate what you have to say and I know you have my best interests in mind. I'd be very worried about you if you dropped a grain of sugar on anything you said! [Geez did you call it about the exWW, huh?, thanks so much for the heads-up on that some months ago; made it so much easier to handle, especially since I had already alerted the kids about what to expect]. ...I don't always feel like a good Dad, but I'm doing my best. Definitely keeping all this drama away from them, lol.

I will continue to post. I have grown a thick skin and, again, I appreciate the help. Even if some of this doesn't get through my thick skull right away, there maybe someone in the future who reads this thread and fully benefits.

Not sure where I will go in the dating world next. However, I am definitely armed with valuable insight.


Thanks again, friends.

Opt

Yes, she was sort of saying that. But if you remember, Pep came back and highlighted it and said "EXCELLENT QUESTION!!".

Not just because of highlighting the double standard, but also because it was a good question. A question meant to make you think of the "Why" of it.

See, when you think of what sex means to you, the value you place on it, it is THEN that you start to make you boundaries around it and move to protect it. This applies to sex whether or not you are married. Unless, of course, your a dog.....

Seriously, I'm not trying to be a downer. And I'm really not even trying to bust your chops to much about what did happen. Like I said, we all make mistakes....and you are going to, too. But its when we LEARN from those mistakes that we grow....


It's would be much easier to just let do what you want, much like our kids. However, if I didn't care, I wouldn't say anything at all. You won't see me comment too much about your dating adventures. After all, this is one area I know NOTHING about....

Heck, even my "sex" advice might be a bit stricter than most, but then again, I've only had one partner.....

But I do think you want to grow from all that you have been through, and if you ever think my advice or thoughts aren't for you, you can say so.....I won't bite....



It's because I truly believe that your WxW is not your typical wayward. If she were, even without learning much about life, she wouldn't have dared engaged in another affair after her first one. Just take a look over on the OC board (which btw, I think you have a lot to offer over there with your experience...). It truly takes a saint to accept an OC. And yes, that is a huge compliment directed towards you, my friend.



This is good, though remember, kids pick up much more than we think they do......they are always watching, learning and soaking up what us parents do.

Cheers and have a great holiday!!!!!

Not

Not, as always I appreciate your time and effort. You have yet to lead me astray. Your advice (like others' here) is often challenging, but I like a challenge and I think I'm up for it.

You're right, I need to get over to the OC board. D9 is growing up and there will be some challenges there; I'll need help for sure. I feel like I need to get a couple of things behind me first (like the first period of being single, reestablishing my life, getting through the holidays, etc.). And I truly appreciate the sentiment, but I am no saint.

In the meantime, I was a little cavalier with the kids about the dating. They both saw her picture on the phone and knew when I was talking to her a few times. I don't think any of that is necessary, in retrospect. I'll be keeping my private life much more private in the future. I think the kids need to understand my devotion to them.

Hey NOT, you've known my sitch for a long time. You might be interested to know that OM#1 has essentially disappeared from the neighborhood. I have literally not seen his face since July 3rd when I gave him a "you disgust me, you cockroach" look (and he subsequently fired a bottle rocket at my house, lol). OM#2, pretty much the same; funny how he never wants to sit on his porch anymore now that Wexw moved out. I don't know if he still hangs around with her. I think he's moved on, lol. I guess wXw was more attractive with a ring on her finger.

Anyway, you have great holidays too, n2f! (((hugs)))

Opt

I'm kind of curious on your take on this one, not that it applies to my sitch anytime soon. For me, I would want to get my kids acclimated for lack of a better term to their father having adult female friends, dating, etc. So that when they do eventually meet one of these women that it's not unexpected and a shock. But that's just me and what I thought when I read your post.

I think it's possible to show your kids how devoted you are to them and at the same time, help them realize that the circumstances have changed and dad is getting out there, meeting new people. Shrug, what's your take on it? I know conventional MB wisdom is to isolate the kids from your dating life and I understand that to a point (not having them meet every girl you go out with) but why prevent them from knowing you're dating at all? Just curious my friend!

Travis

No, you have it right Travis. I appreciate your interest.
Just before the D was final I had a talk with both kids to let them know I would probably start dating and asked how they felt about that. I told them (mostly daughter) that Daddy's need to spend time with other adults from time to time. (Can't remember exactly what I said). I told her I would be going out with women, but that she not ever lose her place as my little girl. I wanted them to know there would be times when I wasn't as available (like if I was out on a date) because up till that point they were coming and going with little regard to the custody schedule, which was fine. But I said nothing was more important to me than them, so not to feel nervous about losing me or anything. Get my drift?

So, this latest episode, I think I was just a little to revealing; not that I feel a need to be secretive. In fact S14 asked today if I was still going out with "T." I said no it didn't work out and he asked why. I said she was trying to get too serious and I wasn't ready for that. He asked if I had kissed her and I said yes; I didn't see any need to lie (I didn't elaborate, lol). Any further questions would have gotten a "Nanyabusiness." ~~ I did the best I could.

Opt

Sounds good Opt, was just curious as to your take on it. Sounds like you have it down pat. Thanks!

Travis

Mmmmmmm I don't think so, but I sure am trying.

Opt

i am a fairly newbie in saa, but headed to d soon i believe. just wanted to commend your attitude regarding your future, and your children.
my entire guise of staying married to ws has for a long time, been our children. i am now realizing that a man who behaves this way is not really deserving of someone as special as ME .
i did not cause this separation/impending d and i am confronting my own part in our lousy relationship. sadly cathartic, reading a great deal, praying even more and learning to accept the reality-all difficult with so much unknown ahead of me and my children.
it is refreshing to get a male perspective from someone who truly cares about his children.
best of luck to you!

'Atta girl!

Thanks so much for the encouragement. It means a lot, truly it does, regardless of your experience with MB. I fall short in a lot of categories, but I suppose I could do worse. When it comes to the kids, I was blessed with the advice here that "someone has to be the parent with integrity and that ain't gonna be a wayward" (paraphrasing). I feel that responsibility on an awesome scale. I can't change that I married someone with immaturity to spare and no reason to anticipate any positive changes. But I can eliminate my immature behaviors and selfishness. And it's hard not to be selfish when you hold yourself in such high esteem, lol; but I try.

Thanks again MomInPink.

Opt

I was reading this thread and noted this Fred. Its good news to hear that formula, and I am no expert, but it does seem to be about right.

Someone whom I know who leads an AA group involving all substance abuse, say that "With the 12 steps and God, anything is possible". We talked about how it was important to include both things, because God is so loosely interperted,<sp>, and I have first hand experience in that. We need to be fully grounded, but reaching up, grounded being the first priority IMO, or we can not see up.

Well what came first to mind, when I saw the formula, was what I read some years ago in behavioral studies, that if you had a problem for 1 year, it would take a year to reverse its effects habitually. This of course is a depressing place to come from if you are trying to examine yourself with a microscope, because you try to fix it all, and think and feel differently, well, hehe, you will be going in a constant spiral as every revelation shows us we have made poor judgements, based on our limited knowledge, and our emotions. More self doubt, based on our own examination of ourselves, and our desire to be and do what is right, well it can drive us backwards in self-esteem and worth.

So that is where we must go to God for our value right? Trust Him that we are worthy of inner peace? I would hazard a guess that in that trust that we ARE loved and worthy we will also turn to trusting his guidance within our conscience also.

When I first read the 1 year to fix 1 year issue, I was 23. At the time I felt there were so many things I needed to 'Fix" about myself, and was willing to wait to really live for 23 more years. Ok, I can hear you laughing now, , I know, I really was taking things too seriuos. But eventually I got over it, and lighted up, and relaxed, and trusted God that my mistakes were made with the best of intentions, and that was what really counted, the intentions of my heart.


Anyway, just wanted to comment on formulas, and express how much relying on God and trusting Him for my future worked, and works better that anything I could come up with, examining myself.

Hope things are well with you, you too Opt, and anyone reading

This is probably common sense/common courtesy, but new to the whole dating thing, I simply don't know how to do it:

I've gone on a few dates with this woman I met at the shelter (we were both volunteering on Thanksgiving). She's really nice and we had really fun times, a couple of nice dinners and conversation then went shopping together which we both hate so made it fun for each other.

Unfortunately, I don't really feel like I want to go out with her anymore. She lives really far away and even though I'm drawn to her, the distance is a little too much to overcome. I can't drive an hour to date someone, sorry, I drive enough for my job. Maybe I'm a terrible person.

Anyway, not sure how to express this to her. I don't want to be a jerk about it. And, no, we weren't physical (just a few kisses ).



Opt

Hey Opt, good to hear from you and hope you have great Holiday plans with the little ones.

Not that I'm necessarily the one to be giving dating advice, but here is my perception. You are just in the "casually dating" zone now. It is expected that you will go out with a variety of women, some leading to more dates and others not. I think everyone knows this mindset going in.

That being said, if there isn't a spark or potential after 1-3 dates, there is nothing wrong with just letting things die on the vine. If you are to the point where you are calling each other once or more times every day, then maybe an explaination is in order. Otherwise, just let things die on the vine. Contact her less and less frequently, don't extend any other invitations for dates.

When things are still this casual, you don't owe any explainations nor are they wanted. This is just dating and everyone should understand.

I'd let her know it's the distance, not anything wrong with her. She should understand. I commute 100 miles/day for my job and I have no desire to commute for anything else. People can understand...or not.

Thanks guys. I think she'll understand. Or not.
Let's just say I'm glad things didn't move too "quickly" as this could have been much more difficult. I think I'm starting to get it.

Merry Christmas Everyone!!

Opt

Bingo! You definitely got it!

AGG

Merry Christmas to everyone here too!

Merry Christmas Opt!!!!

I hope your holiday was a good one for you and the kiddo's....you're a good man!!!!! May this year bring you the joy and peace you deserve!!!

Not

"I hope your holiday was a good one for you and the kiddo's....you're a good man!!!!! May this year bring you the joy and peace you deserve!!!"

Thanks NOT!! You too, I hope you had a great Christmas and best wishes for the new year!

I had the kids for Christmas eve and we had a great time far far away, went to a nice Christams Mass and then came home.I forgot to call their Grammy (my MIL) to do the traditional reading of Night Before Christmas. I simply forgot. I feel kinda bad, but hey the kids never mentioned it, not once. I still am completely unmotivated to make contact with any of my ex-in-laws. I just see no need. Maybe I'm a terrible person; some of them I actually liked. I just want to move on. The kids have total access to wexw's family, so it's not like I'm depriving them.

Anyway I'm rambling. We opened presents on Christmas morning then I dropped them at their Granpa's around noon. Went for a nice solo walk in the woods on the way home. I'm going to keep that tradition, it was great.

Met up with a nice woman later in the afternoon for a little open house thing. I've known her for a while but only as an acquaintance. We've had a couple nice dates, dispensing with a lot of the get-to-know-you basics since we worked in the same office for a while and have a sense of each other's general personality. Trying to go slow and be cautious, but I do sense something special about her.

My pool team made it to the playoffs! Yeh, pretty sure this year's going to be better than last, lol.

Opt

So I�ve promised a couple posters an update so here goes.

I�ve been dating a woman (same as mentioned in above quote) for several weeks. She is someone who I was planning to ask out eventually and the opportunity arose in December when I ran into her at a Christmas party. We knew of each other as we work for the same company and she was in the same office as me for a little while last summer. At the time I was going though the divorce and obviously not putting myself out there - she was also very respectful of my situation - something that would later play huge in my perception of her.

We work in different offices so I don�t see her at work so potential interoffice drama is minimal; its an environment where people are out in the field most of the time anyway.

She�s the 4th woman I�ve been out with since the D. I�m still ever wary of the rebound effect so I�m trying to be realistic.

Anyway. So far so good. She�s about my age, her kids are 19 and 20 with one out of the house the daughter in college. She�s been divorced about 10 years, dated her share and almost got married again.

We get along very well. I know this is anti-MB, but after our a little while I had no desire to see anyone else. I knew I would have a good time with her so whenever I could go out I would ask her. We go out 2-3 nights a week now. We text or call every day.

This woman is extremely compassionate and sincere and thoughtful. She understands my situation and loves that I am so committed to my kids (even though those 3-4 days of not seeing each other is getting more difficult).

What I like about her is that she is very comfortable with her self and has worked through a whole bunch of the issues that go along with being married and divorced with an alcoholic. She has boundaries and has made it clear that what I see is what I get. She told me the other night that if I discovered something I couldn�t live with then we would just move on an �it�s been an incredible few weeks.�

She�s also sensitive and completely honest and fills me with a desire to protect her. It�s been a long time since I felt this way about a woman.

The infatuation stage rocks!

Opt

Congrats on the developing relationship, Opt.

You're right, the infatuation stage definitely rocks, so enjoy it while keeping a realistic view of the future in perspective.

We're still in the parallel universe thing, just I'm a couple of months ahead of you in my current relationship. Totally understand about getting pressure about not being available when you have the kids. It's been the biggest source of internal conflict for myself, an some external. My girlfriend has been spening a good deal of time with me and the boys when I have them, like dinner and movies once a week and yesterday we all went for a nice hike together, but we both miss the more intimate time for just us when the boys are around, especially her. Just a heads up, it may turn into more of an issue, but the fact that your lady has been on her own for 10 years may work in your favor there and she may be able to keep a more patient perspective.

I like her healthy attitude about just moving on if there are issues you both cannot live with. I had the very conversation with my lady just last week. We both know that the potential road blocks to a future together are the fact that I have young children, and my unavailability to just take off or travel for weeks at a time.

I told her if it became apparent that we couldn't work through these, that I love her enough to let her go with just a pleasant goodbye and lovely memories. She actually took a little offense at that, asking "wouldn't you fight for me?". I responded that I would indeed fight if I thought that she could be happy with me and my situation, but would not fight if I KNEW that she could not.

Sounds like you are on a good road, Opt, enjoy!

Congratualtions, opt! What comes through in your update is that she seems to feel very much the same about you!

I guess this is why you're able to help me along on my own stumbling, hesitant thread.

Opt,
It sounds great, I also like her healthy attitude! Enjoy!

Shtoop, You helped me alot about what to expect with the mixing GF and kids thing. The custody schedule was different this week due to I'm taking a little trip to my hometown and so xww took a trip of her own. Anyway it worked out that I wouldn't be able to see GF for a week and that just wouldn't work so she stopped by for a very casual visit with her daughter on Friday night. My D8 had her little friends over so it was a relaxed and fun environment. S14 came home from a HS bball game later and just had the introductions which was fine. Point is I knew there were plenty of considerations based on your experience so....thanks!

@Fred, not sure how you picked up on that but, yeah, she kinda likes me . Thing is that she came out with it that she had had a "crush" on me since the summer but I would have never known because she NEVER let it show. When I found that out of course it endeared me to her a lot because it showed her boundaries and that she would never mess with someone who was separated. I literally had no idea she thought of me as anything more than another person in the office.
And for the record I don't really see you as stumbling Fred I think you're doing great.

@ KC, thanks! Fortunately she's still quite devoted to her kids as well so when I have my kids she has plenty to keep her busy. Her attitude keeps me in check b/c it's easy to get carried away -- I really like her.

Opt

Opt- so glad to hear things are going well for you, you deserve it!

Opt- I have read your story and I just want you to know that I absolutely dread the dating scene. Use to have fun with it when I was in college but that was 12 years ago. I am just about divorced (wife filed 3 months ago and we are just about done with the entire process) and I know that dating again is something that looms in my future but I about have panic attacks when I think about it too much!!! Ha ha....However, keep posting your stories....I'm learning a lot from you and Fred. You guys rock! Can't wait to be where you guys are. Seems like you are having fun and are at peace with your life. I'm just now trying to get off of the rollercoaster and "restarting" my own life....Still not sure why I stopped it in the first place, but when you are married and committed it seems like the right thing to do at the time....Live and learn, eh? Anyway, as i said, keep it coming. You are inspiring me to move forward.

Opt - I couldn't be happier for you. Thanks for the update!! Remember how scary it felt pre-divorce - "will I ever find another woman?" And look at you now!! I wish you nothing but the best - you deserve it, bud.

Remember to pay it forward on this site (advice-wise)! There's a lot of BH's here lately, and they need us to help guide them. A lot of the BWs here try to help them, but we need a larger male presence to help give a Y-chromosome perspective to the hurting guys out there (and sometimes to counter the "marriage at all costs" attitude of some of the more rabid MB'ers). We guys are a different species and have different needs, fears, and mental roadblocks than BWs have.

Onward to a more fulfilled, richer life!

Cardman, guess what!? I've been in your shoes too. And I couldn't IMAGINE dating again - panic attacks? Check, check, and check! But life on the other side is more beautiful than I ever dared to hope. I just tried to focus on my personal recovery, got some therapy, leaned on my family and friends, prayed, and repeated my mantra of "Living well is the best revenge" whenever I was hurt or angered by my WXW.

The high road is the best road, and it takes a strong man to stay on it.... even when it feels like you're being "weak" by not responding in anger, resist the temptation to lash out. True strength comes in the form of self-control, and "turning the other cheek".

I'm excited for what the future holds for you.

Arpeggi- I'm not going to hijack Opt's thread anymore (or at least try not to :)))) and I really know i need to start my own thread but I am still in the rollercoaster stage of the emotions (angry one minute, happy the next, etc.) but that is getting better. I am now spending 75% of my time thinking about MY future instead of worry about still pleasing the WW and trying to save something that is pretty much over! I've done my best to save it. Tried to go plan A (mostly) and now am in plan B for the most part. Through it all I have tried my best to take the high road and yet STBXW still finds a way to turn it all around and make me out to be the bad guy....Never thought they could be so ruthless and still wonder how anyone can be so self-centered. I am doing everything that the good people on here have done to try to aid and speed up my recovery. Church (STBXW didn't want to go anymore and for some reason I quit when she did), started reconnecting with friends, have been speaking to my school counselor (I'm a teacher) and it's amazing how much it helps because her sister and brother have both divorced. Started training for my first marathon. Looking for new jobs to get out of this town (this is her hometown). etc. etc. etc. Even been dreaming of my own home and being able to do the things that I want with it when my current house finally sells (however in this economy that is a scary thing and I wonder how long I will be broke on this). At least I know that I am not ready to date for a while (and I won't until the divorce is final anyway). I have a good excuse! I am broke! Barely scraping by!!!! Anyway, enough of hijacking Opt's thread. I'll continue to observe the good men and women in this forum and their progressions through the dating/divorced life. At least I understand that I am not alone!!!!

Hey Cardman, a shout out to you!

Here's a little tidbit that helped me:

It no longer matters what the WS thinks of you.

Get it? It works both ways, too.

Many years ago, there was a comedian who speculated on what aliens might think about us.

Cardman, start your own thread. Copy and paste this post into a new thread because I have some things to say, but I'm not gonna until it's YOUR thread.

kirby-Done....Over in the Divorced/divorcing forum. Figured I should post there first since mine isn't quite finished. However, I'll continue to keep an eye on all of these guys over here as I begin to move in this direction.

I missed this update Opt. So happy for you...and yes the infatuation stage rocks! I'm still there btw.

ingWoman,
Thanks for checking in. I just looked at some of your thread on MB101 (to unhappy husbands). I haven't been over there much but I was trying to see what you've been up to. It sounds like you love your husband so much and it's really encouraging that you can say the infatuation stage has lasted so long (married in Nov last year, right?).
I honestly would like to think this good state of affairs could last and I'm applying myself to that end. I have already developed what I would consider a deep communication level with my GF and have confidence that we are being really honest and open with each other. We talk about a lot of things that most couples probably don't after only 2 months dating. I know she feels safe talking to me; I've learned from this site sometimes just listening is the most important thing; I don't try to advise her. She doesn't judge me on anything; and I've been pretty out-front because I figure she might as well know me for real b/c a deal-breaker now is a deal-breaker 2 months from now. O&H seems to be a big EN for both of us although she isn't familiar with MB specifically.

It's nice to be in a mutually respectful and satisfying relationship. It would absolutely not be possible without understanding many of the things I've learned here.

GF came by the house tonight and met the kids for the second time. Both visits were short and informal. My daughter likes her, son is too cool to say anything but he is more than respectful and polite. I talk about her a fair amount, but I'm not rushing the encounters. I enjoy the nights with just the kids and she gets that.

Dating as a single father is very complicated. But I think I have a better opportunity to set good examples for my children now than I did struggling in a loveless marriage, then a M wracked by adultery, then attempting to fix things with someone who couldn't be persuaded.

I visited my family over the weekend and more than one of them (including friends) commented on my much more relaxed and in-control state. It made me feel like things were where they were meant to be, for once.

Opt

Good to hear things are going well for you, Opt!

Really liked the last comment about being in a relaxed and in-control state.

To be honest, I was pretty much there in my recovery until I met the GF. She kind of turned my world around and at times I was scrambling to balance giving of myself to her and keeping the boys the priority they should be. I think I have done a pretty good job, but the demands did introduce a little more stress in my life. The holidays falling right in the middle of all this didn't help, either.

But don't read this like it's a bad thing. Nothing wrong with have a little excitement and uncertainty in your life. I think I would have the propensity to hide in a comfortable, routine world of my own creation. Safe, without risks, and bland isn't a great way to go through life, either.

Things have normalized now and I feel I have a pretty good balance. Feeling more and more like "things are where they need to be".

Stay strong!

Yes. Things are incredible. Even with the crazy visitation schedules between his two boys and my one....we just love being together. Just now, he on the hour and half drive back from dropping off his boys and we talked as long on the phone as service would allow. Mostly about the various complications that come up with the boys and the Exs....but we also talked about our service today...and the first conversation we had where he was 'sold' and I was 'hmmm...maybe.' We have so much fun together.





This was our situation too. Some friends and family were concerned at how quickly we were moving but we told them, 'if you knew all the details of our conversations you probably would not feel that way.'

So much of it is in the timing. He and I were at the perfect 'post divorce' stage where we were really ready. And we had a strong sense of what we wanted and a really good BS detector.


Ditto


.
I hear this ALL of the time now. How my smile has returned....my old self is back...just last night I overheard an older friend say to another friend, 'I'm so glad SW has found her a good husband. She really deserves it.'

I am so happy for the two of you!!

Thanks all!!
Cautiously optimistic and really enjoying getting to know this lovely woman. We definitely have fun together. She makes me laugh and actually thinks some of my jokes are funny.
We spend a lot of time together but also have our own things going on and are respectful of each other's responsibilities.
~optimism

I'm truly happy for you, Opt!!!!! I've pointed a certain soldier to your thread for pointers for when he's ready.......


Not

[Thanks NOT! Nice to see you. I hope I can help a soldier or anyone else.]

Ugh. I think I might have thrown my little dating relationship forward into the Disillusionment (see AGG post in Schtoop's thread) stage -unwittingly. Is that possible? It's only been a couple of months. But it has been a blissful 2 months of adoring infatuation on both sides.

We had talked about her going to pool league with me on Tuesday night. I pictured her driving to meet me there. When it came time to go I didn't really follow up very well and I was on my way when I called. She had been expecting me to pick her up and go. I didn't want to be late so we left it as it was, she stayed home. [To be fair, the notion of her driving there was preposterous - she has no idea where it is and the situation was completely unfamiliar to her; way too much for me to expect of her.] Overall communication issue; but mostly me being a bit selfish in my perspective (not seeing things from my counterpart's point of view) until it was too late. She was definitely disappointed.

Well I did the best I could - apologized and brought her coffee real early the next morning (once it all sunk in to my head what exactly happened - typical slow responding male here). She says things are fine, but I sense a different tone. Bummer! For 2 months I was batting a thousand! She thought I walked on water - it was a nice feeling.

Maybe it seems all a little silly. But the thing is this: this is exactly the kind of situation that created distance between me and the now ex. Admittedly I've learned a lot and have a whole different perspective on my behaviors. I truly hate the thought of hurting this lovely woman; she is so sweet and kind. I can't picture her hurting a fly and she so doesn't deserve ill or neglectful treatment. I feel terrible to have caused her any amount of pain or discomfort/disappointment. I really do.

I've expressed all this to her the best I can. Just wondering if I can expect a different complexion to enter the picture and if there's anything else I can do. Maybe it's a good thing. But, If infatuation stage is gone, I'll miss it for sure.

Thanks for listening friends.

Opt

I think a lot if not most of marital/relationship issues that crop up could have been avoided or mitigated by good communication. So.... I guess you know it's something to work on ya? At the same time, I think this is a good thing in some ways BECAUSE you get to see how she reacts to disappointment, etc with you. I definitely think this is valuable information as you move forward in the relationship. Because you're not going to be batting a thousand for the rest of your life, you know? No worries Opt, small potatoes in the grand scheme of things!

Travis

Hey Opt, I think I can help here.

So you've been deep in the infatuation stage for 2 months now and this is the first time you've really hurt her? That's a great streak in my opinion.

Here's the deal, and I feel pretty confident I know what I'm talking about because I have been through this a few times with the woman I'm seeing. She's not hurt about the miscommunication or missing the pool night. She's hurt because it was a chance to be let into your world a little more and feels rejected because it didn't happen and you didn't make more of an effort.

How open has she been about introducing you to her friends, family, and coworkers?

I made the same mistake a couple of times. First was when my woman wanted to meet my boys, and I hemmed and hawed and didn't make her feel worthy. The second time was when she wanted to accompany me to my family's get together at Christmas, when again I hesitated.

Here's what you do to make it better:

1) Talk it out with her (or better yet, listen!). Find out what hurt her so much (I bet I'm on the right track) and avoid the deadly D's. These are instead of listening and empathizing with the other person's feeling, you get defensive, denial, and dismissive. Listen and let her understand you know why she was hurt and validate that.

2) You don't have to make it too obvious, but find another occasion (soon if possible) where you can pull her further into your world. She will notice and feel all the safer.

3) Let it go and don't dwell on the transgression too much. Feeling come, but they go just as quickly. Return to your normal caring and fun loving self is the best you can do.

Do these things and you won't be creating distance, you'll actually be pulling yourselves closer together. Intimacy is gained at a much higher rate when you have these bumps in the road that are dealt with successfully rather than a smooth, uninterupted ride. And don't worry, the infatuation stage is definitely NOT over yet.

That's the beauty of Infatuation buddy, the feeling of the other person not being able to do anything wrong. But as we all know, no one walks on water all the time, so my thinking is that it's better that this happened now rather than later.

From the way you described it, it was a misunderstanding, but I would not blow it up into you being a babboon or worse - miscommunication happens. The important thing is to see how you both react. You should apologize (which you did), and make the appropriate adjustments, and she should graciously accept. And if she does not, I'll be the first to say "hmmm". I would not go too far in trying to make up for the incident, as it will imply that you should never screw up again, and that is just silly.

I don't think this is Disillusionment Stage material .

AGG

Thanks guys so much. I knew I�d get some perspective here.

Travis. Thanks for you input. Also I noticed you haven�t been on your thread in a couple weeks � hope all is progressing. You�re right about her reactions telling me something. When we talked she did say essentially that this wasn�t a deal-breaker. Overall she did handle it gracefully and with dignity. She accepted my apology for sure. I also think the situation had her thinking things through on Tuesday night. Wondering if she was getting too attached for her own comfort. Understandable.
This evening in a text she said �it�s been a weird couple of days� [she doesn�t text much b/c no keyboard on her phone]. But I think things are returning to normal and ultimately these situations give depth to a relationship, I suppose. Or they bust it. In which case (as she�s said more than once): �we weren�t meant to be.� [we�re both still taking that healthy approach, which I like. Its been a fun time, but we get the level and aim of the process].

Schtoop. Always good to get your perspective and thanks for taking the extra time with a full-on response. I think you�re spot on in your assessment and I was instinctively leaning that way. She�s wants to know that I�m ready to introduce her in other areas of my life. (Is it a Harley concept that women want to be involved in all areas, like the rooms of a house? Or did I read that somewhere else?).
Thanks for sharing your experience and insight. I have essentially been implementing your advice today. I did give her a chance to talk (she talks a lot sometimes but I like that � her voice is very comforting and pleasant) � I just listened actively and acknowledged her feelings best I could. Also not lingering on the misdeed. I�ve learned. I won�t miss the next opportunity to let her know I�m totally proud to have her in my life. She is really special. If it all falls apart for some reason, I have been blessed to get close to her for this short time.

AGG: Was hoping you�d chime in! Thanks a bunch. I felt a lot better putting it all out here- and today has proven that she�s not dumping me like yesterday�s news paper. Maybe pulling back a notch, but I can deal with that.
I guess this all gives me a chance to experience it from my side before she manages to slip up and maybe do something insensitive or inadvertently hurtful (nobody�s perfect and I wouldn�t want that anyway). Hopefully I�ll keep my perspective and handle it as generously as she did.

I have to give this lovely woman a name for the purpose of these posts. GF is so generic. Fred already has �Ballroom Girl� and �Church Lady,� lol. How about Nature Girl (NG for short)? I just read a book of the same title and she does spend a lot of time walking on the beach and kayaking and loving God�s natural gifts. Motion made and seconded. NG it is.

Thanks again folks.

opt

NG it is. Works for me .

AGG

Boy, I hope that speed-readers don't mistake that for "No Good." That would be disastrous!

Hey Fred!
I'll update my sig line to make it clear~ I certainly wouldn't want anyone to think I
was dating someone who was "No Good," lol.

Guess what? I've signed up me and NatureGirl for a free BR dance lesson for a date this Monday night. We had talked about doing something like that, so here we go. Should be a hoot; I have two very uncoordinated left feet. I'll let you know if I break anything.

Opt

Hey opt, I think that's awesome! You know, I think going dancing (or taking dance lessons) together is a real $LB deposit! It's an activity you can do together, and have fun and laughs doing.

Here's another thing. The dance instructors will tell you that you should dance with as many different people that you can! This makes you a better dancer. So, while you're having an 'experience' together, you get to not be "clingy" at the same time.

It's a good thing we're not double-dating on this one, though. I'd hate to see what the dance floor would look like with TWO left-footed people trying not to look like elephants with flamingo legs!

Or is that flamingos with elephant legs? Oh well, you get the point...

Opt -------> <------- NG


Watch out for her toes Opt!

Thanks guys, I know we'll have a great time.

Well, S14 finally came out with it last night:
"it just makes me feel weird to see you with someone else and not Momma"
He was all bummed out and I noticed he's been resisting the notion of her joining us for anything.

I had planned a short evening out - dinner, the mall, bowling where he could bring a friend and I would invite NG. When it came time to leave, he hadn't secured a friend's company and it was going to be just the 4 of us (NG was available). We were to go bowling and have dinner.

S14: I'm tired, I have a headache, I want to stay home...

With what I would consider good non-probing questions I got him around to the above quote.

I respected his feelings and let him know it was okay to feel that way. I know it's awkward and let's face it he has 5 more years of memories of me and xww together than does D9. However, I wasn't going to change plans; I told him the reality was that things were different now. I did the best I could.

We picked up NatureGirl and had a real nice time bowling. We all played foozball. We had dinner (burgers and fries). NG was great - she is fun-loving and good with the kids. Her experience raising a son and daughter independently helps I believe. I was affectionate with NG but not inappropriate (obviously); although anybody can see I'm googly over her.

Son had been quiet on the ride up (20 minutes) but seemed fine once we were all together.

Where did I go wrong? What could I have done differently? What should I do next?

Optimism

t/j Opt Justus wrote this yesterday on the photo thread. Just wanna make sure you see it.

end t/j

Doesn't sound like you did anything wrong to me.

I don't see how you could have improved on that situation.

What should you do next? Same thing you did this time.... Validate his feelings and be honest and open about the reality of the situation.

Your son is lucky to have a concered Dad like yourself.

Sounds right to me Opt.

Hard to tell from where I sit, but maybe less of the PDA would help when your son is around?

AGG

opt,

I told my kids and her kids that you didn't have to like the other's significant other, but you have to be respectful, as you would with any other adult and person. . .

that's it

and that they can discuss their feelings with me privately when the other person is not around.

I dunno Opt, I still see an issue with this. Your son told you he feels weird with you being with someone else. You said you respected his feelings, but then you proceeded to disrespect them, IMO, by making him join you on a date with this "someone else", where you proceeded to be affectionate with her. Call it what you want, but I suspect your son felt that you were not respecting his feelings, but almost rubbing this someone else into his face. Again, it's hard for me to see from where I sit, but while I agree with wiftty that kids can express their feelings but not dictate your actions, I also feel that your actions show whether or not you respect the kids' feelings.

Maybe for now you can hold off being overtly affetcionate with your GF when your son is around? Or reduce the amount of times your son spends with you and NG on "family outings". I dunno, just some thoughts from the peanut gallery. I may be way off of course, so take it for what it's worth.

AGG

AGG,

if the question is, is opt bringing around someone too soon? i would agree. . . If opt insists on bringing around other people now, then I would not give the child the power to determine with whom the adult interacts. That is giving a child too much power over the adult actions.

However, the child is obviously not ready to accept another woman in his dad's life, so that is to what opt needs to pay attention. so I suggest that opt needs to present the woman not as a mother figure, but as a friend of opts, so that the child can get used to his dad being friendly with other women first, without a replacement mother with opt. . .

that is where the private conversation is for the child to feel comfortable with understanding his dad's intentions. . but i will say, the kids have the power to undermine a relationship, if they so choose, which is why waiting for adult hood for the children is best, adulthood meaning youngest in college.. . .

wiftty

No disagreement here. My point is that opt (like everyone else) can choose his actions, but he cannot choose the consequences. So, like you say above, it is perfectly appropriate for him to choose to interact with his GF however he wants to, and not give his son the power to say no. But, he cannot also choose for his son to be happy with this, that is his son's prerogative. Now, he can establish how his son acts out on his feelings, i.e. not make a scene or be rude or whatever. But, he cannot choose his actions and his son's feelings at the same time. So, if he knows his son is not ready for him to be bringing a new woman into his son's life, and he chooses to do so anyway - that is his right. But it is his son's right to be unhappy with it.

AGG

It's pretty easy to arm-chair quarterback Opt's actions and relationship BUT I think everyone needs to keep in mind that Opt is in the trenches so to speak. Would it be "best" for the kids if Opt didn't date until the youngest is out of the house? Debatable at best but certainly that wouldn't be what's best for Opt. I think he's doing his best to balance conflicting needs (his own versus the kid's level of comfort). There is no perfect solution; I don't get the impression that Opt is sacrificing his son's comfort in favor of NG. Quite the opposite, I think he did a great job acknowledging his son's feelings while not allowing the teenager to modify the "family" plans because of a feeling.

I know this is probably a hot button issue as everyone allows their kids different amounts of leeway. I've raised two teenagers and I can't recall forcing them to come with me and their mother pretty much anywhere except to a few family events. At the same time, Opt wants to acclimate NG into the family (I'm guessing) so... that requires a certain amount of his son's presence. That and the PDA thing... acting differently around the kids for me would be akin to representing the relationship as something it's not, plain old friendship. Too close to lying for this guy who's incredibly sensitive to dishonesty at this point. I mean, he wasn't making out with NG I'm assuming so... again, not sure I see the problem.

I don't know, I guess I'm the only one who thought Opt did a dang fine job here! lol...

Travis

I tend to agree with this.

How old is your DS? I don't think waiting for 10 years should be nessesry before he dates, again its his relationship with DS that is what would determine much of that also.

I Know it would be difficult for me to present my kids now with a new woman in my life. They are all adults now though.

I think it would be hard to present DS with a new, "Mommy", or any authority figure attached to Opt.

It will take a lot of investment from NG to become close to DS, I guess that will be the challange. Once that was done, I think things could flow much easier

Travis, I never said that Opt did anything wrong.. He was the one who asked:



And I simply offered some thoughts that I thought might help him.

AGG

Guys, I so appreciate the thoughtful responses and discussion. It's been a busy weekend (started a second job last week) and now I have to get going to work, so I can't give a worthy comment except that I have taken all points into account and you've given me a lot to think about.

opt

Count me as one who thinks Opt played this one perfectly.

Talk to your son and acknowledge his feelings, and also try to reassure him about your intentions with NG.

I went through all this recently with my 10 year old. When I first talked to him about being introduced to PG (preacher girl), he stated matter-of-factly that he didn't want a stepmother or step siblings. I was able to reassure him that we were nowhere even close to thinking about that, that we just like each other (a lot) and enjoy being together, and that I want the children to be part of that too.

We had the one incident that I went into detail about in my thread, and I had a serious talk with him about showing respect and what behavior towards PG, or any adult for that matter, would or would not be tolerated.

In the next weeks he was very good, but would sometimes roll his eyes and say "again?" when I would tell him she was coming over.

A week or so ago I talked with him again and asked what he felt about PG being around frequently. He said it's good and that it felt "normal" now. (Win!!) We even had a very nice dinner at my house with Preacher Girl, her father, and my kids where they were very well behaved and made me proud.

Moral of the story, I totally agree with those who say Opt cannot let his teenage son dictate who and when he chooses to be around. Let NG be around during fun outings, but also when you are just hanging around the house doing nothing. It will start to feel more "normal" to everyone.

Opt,

Don't feel guilty about having NG in your life. It sounds like you handled this perfectly - and I get the sense that you're the kind of guy who naturally puts his kids first. I'm sure you did and will continue to do the right thing intuitively.

Had a conversation with the kids in a very relaxed environment in which I asked what they thought about our time bowling last week. And how they felt about (NatureGirl) being with us. Ultimately, after some discussion, DS admitted that he was okay with her once she�s in our presence; it�s just that he�s having a hard time with the concept of me being with someone else. He said it just feels strange and uncomfortable to him. He said he doesn�t have an actual problem with her individually and that he understands she�s going to be around from time to time.

DD9 expressed similar nostalgia about when me and wxw were together. Of course they miss having a family with their parents who were at least auspiciously in love. I admitted I miss that too.

DD9 said she had fun with NG and �when will she be with us again?� She seems to be more able to separate her �Momma� from her �Daddy�s new GF.� --am I interpreting that correctly? It would make sense to me as DS had more time with his Mom and Dad together, and frankly the first 5 years of his life were idyllic - infidelity started creeping in around his 5th year and, obviously, the birth of his sister. My infidelity was highly secretive and was only devastating on a deep level.. . Overall wxw and I got along quite well, even through the wxw�s affair with the neighbor(s). We never fought that much and actually hugged quite a bit (wxw did have a EN of affection, but not intimacy/SF). We were very good roommates, and I suppose to a kid that suffices.

I asked them both if there was anything I could have done differently to make them more comfortable (clearly speaking mostly to DS). DS said no �it�s not like you were making out or anything� and �she�s your girlfriend, it�s not like you�re just going to ignore her.�

In retrospect, I think the smartest thing I did was not make DS relinquish his shotgun seat when I picked up NG - she sat in the back with DD. NG got the picture.

Well, that was the first real opportunity I had to talk to them after having read all of your helpful comments and thoughts here. I kept in mind what everyone had to say and initiated the conversation as much to get their true feelings as to let them know they are still #1 in my life; their feelings count (and so do mine).

Opt

One thing I wanted to address, is the idea of waiting until they�re grown up to date. I have been saying in these threads for a long time that I really regret bringing up my kids in an environment where their Mom and Dad were more roommates/brother and sister than husband and wife. I really feel they missed out on the modeling of what a real loving, mutually respectful relationship looks like. Early in the D process I ignorantly looked forward to being able to having a second opportunity for DS before he graduates and (hopefully) moves out. [I was not thinking about the timeline or the reality of how long it really takes to develop that kind of relationship, or even how rare it is.] My folks were not overtly �in love� until after I left for college - my R with wxw was very similar and had much of the same underlying disrespect (IB, DJ�s) my Dad had for my Mom (although they never cheated on one another). I understand the importance of not rushing anything and I certainly wouldn't force something false (kinda been down that road for 15 years...). But, I wouldn�t hold off on dating and miss an opportunity to demonstrate to my kids how two people treat each other when they are in love.

opt

Bingo! You make me really proud, Opt.

You have handled this perfectly and you are exactly right about demonstrating what true loving relationship is like for your kids. They are lucky to have a father like you.

And sounds like DS11 is right where he should be. Of course it's a little awkward to see his father with someone other than his mother, but sounds like he has it in the proper perspective. You'll be surprised how quickly and easily being together with her will start to feel comfortable.

Going on fun outings together like bowling is a great way to get to that comfort zone, but so is just hanging out at the house when nothing is going on or for a family dinner.

I had a couple extra minutes so I thought I�d bring things up to speed on my thread.

NG and I have continued to get along very well. It seems we�ve both been in relationships where trust was low, so sharing and openness was limited. I feel like we both have learned from those mistakes and know where that leads, so we�ve opened up to each other more than we might otherwise be inclined to. One thing I really like is that when she gets a bad vibe about something she brings it up right away.

Example:
I completely forgot about agreeing to go to her niece�s christening last Sunday afternoon (doh!)
So on Saturday night returning from a wonderful date of Ballroom Dancing (well, in our case Ballroom Tripping All Over Each Other, lol); it came up and it was clear I just totally spaced it.

Fortunately we were able to talk not just on a level of �how could you forget something like that?� type of thing, but more how it reflected on our relationship and what state our lives were both in. Somehow, just talking calmly and not making any accusations or DJ�s seems to be NG�s approach; at least at this juncture. Regardless of why, I�m noticing it�s so much more manageable to have these �discussions� when I KNOW she cares about me and there is no resentment between us (EN�s are being met for the most part). Also I�m still very aware of my want to protect her feelings and certainly she sensed my sincere regret for messing up my schedule.

As for the aforementioned BR Dancing, what a hoot that was! We had done a free lesson on Monday night as a date. We enjoyed it so I found a skating rink that holds dances every Saturday. We had no idea what to expect but decided to check it out (that�s one thing I really like about NG - she�s adventurous and manages to have fun no matter what). So we went in with a working knowledge of the box step (only) and low and behold there must have been 50 - 60 couples. Many had been dancing as long as we have been alive, it was beautiful. We went in the practice area so as not to maim anyone and sooner or later a couple took some pity on us and showed us the proper fox trot. We did a few dances with the general population and there were a lot of folks encouraging us. We hope to go back soon as it was a rippin� good time. I would recommend it to anyone and we were told there�s no need to spend lots of money on studios and lessons as most communities have offerings --- then it�s all about getting out and doing it.

Anyway, I like NG a lot and we have a lot of fun together. She likes me a lot too. A whole lot. I can tell. It�s really great. But it makes me a little nervous too. Is that normal?

opt

Awesome, opt. You're doing so much better than I am at this point. Especially in the dancing arena! LOL.

NG sounds a lot more adventurous and impromptu than Ballroom Girl. Hmmm.

Thanks Fred! It's hard to coordinate everything with my kids and my time with them, work and of course she has a couple kids even though they are older they still factor in. In fact I'm counting hours that we actually spend together (UA time) as much out of curiosity as anything. I like the 15 hr/wk minimum for bonding that Harley talks about (and requires for couples who he counsels). We're not there (maybe 10), but we're not married either, lol. I'm just glad she understands that my kids time is just that; even tonight she said she's not interested in interfering with that.

I'm still most thrilled by her tendency to get things out in the open right NOW. Today we talked about our plans for the weekend and hers didn't include me, which was perfectly good. A while later she called to check that I wasn't offended or felt discluded. She's very direct and attentive, sincere and empathetic. She seems to consider the relationship something to protect. It's very refreshing.

opt

That's awesome Opt. I am very happy for you.

Thanks MJ.
things continue to go well with Nature Girl. She intrigues me and amazes me with her outlook on life and with the way she approaches things. She's thoughtful and mellow but not without emotion and a lot of sentimentality. She's reading FilSil. She believes people can learn from their mistakes and change for the better - and has done so herself (kinda like Yours Truly).

I think the Disallusionment (sp) stage was starting to set in for me a few weeks ago. Not with NG herself, but with the whole situation. I was feeling like there was no way I could really give her (or the relationship) everything I wanted to between the kids and all obligations. That was bumming me out. I wanted to spend like all my time with her and the reality of being in a relationship for a 42 yo with so many responsibilities was disillusioning. I also think I like her so much I want to be perfect, and I know that's not possible.
That seems to have passed some and we've settled into a nice rhythm. In fact I think I'm back in the Infatuation stage.

We've had so many really fun experiences and have been sharing our interests with each other. She went to pool league with me one night, and I helped her with her landscaping side job one afternoon. We've walked around her home town and I've had dinner with her family. We watched the Super Moon rise together. I even walked her dogs on my own, lol.

Anyway, I'm not sure how to handle one thing: my past infidelity. It hasn't really come up specifically. But we've been dating around 4 months now. I know if it's really meant to be for the long term, I obviously want her to know everything about me (and me about her). She has said she has some belief in the saying "once a cheater always a cheater" and frankly I believe that as well, except for when it comes to me~ and I have learned so much about boundaries and the devastation infidelity causes that I know it won't be a problem for me in future relationships, I won't allow it. (I guess I'm a "recovering cheater"?)
So, when and how, trusted friends? What say you?

Opt

Hmmm, I would say "about 3.5 months ago" . It's different for everybody of course - some folks would never date someone who had an affair, others would. I think it's a pretty big "skeleton" to have kept in the closet all this time, but maybe she'll feel differently. Only one way to find out.

AGG

Hey Opt, glad to see you're still doing well with NG. Haven't seen you post in a while, but no news is usally good news.


Been there and done that, especially when you can sense the disappointment when we're not available to our partners.

And, do you have some underlying guilt from time to time? I know it's not accurate, but to sometimes feel like we're taking away from the kids somehow with the time we spend with our partners?

On the other subject, you may have missed the best opportunity to tell about your own affair. I'm sure you have had conversations where you talk about the state of your previous marriage and what you did wrong? That would have been the time.

O & H is also a key component of my relationship with PG, and she has confided about an EA she was involved with. We talked some about it and I was grateful that she had told me.

x2

Honestly, I wouldn't stress about it too much. If YOU truly know that you won't do it again, then I wouldn't mention it to her, and just put it out of your head. I'm sure you were a different person.

If you just can't stand not telling her, than tell her some time when you're being open and sharing your deep thoughts and feelings. Frame it with context and what you learned from it. Tell her why you're a different person now than you were then.

Either way, I don't believe you're committing a "crime of omission" by letting the past stay in the past. My advice would be very different if I hadn't read so many of your posts that reflect that you a now a man of good character.

Full disclosure: I DID tell my current girlfriend about the one time I cheated on a girlfriend. I was 20, young, dumb, drunk, and the girl was VERY intent on getting some action (she was coked up and not taking no for an answer). None of that made it okay, but after it happened, I told my ex-girlfriend about it immediately because I couldn't have lived with that dishonesty even then.
And when I told my current girlfriend about that incident, it led to a long conversation and she has brought it up in a few heated moments since then. But other than that, it hasn't been a huge deal.

This is something you definitely should tell any prospective spouse. If I were her, I want to know this sooner rather than later. If this is a knock out factor, it is better to know now before you get more intimate. I doubt I would marry someone with cheating in his past but I might. On second thought, you might be a safer bet than others because you understand the risks and have appropriate boundaries.

Dr Harley has recommended his personal history questionaire for prospective spouses. It is a great tool in that you would answer questions about any and all previous sexual partners. It does ask if you have ever had an extramarital affair. Personal history questionaire

Wow. That is one comprehensive survey! Thanks for the link, ML.

Lol, Mel, where was this when I got married at 18? Ah nevermind, I was to smart for my britches then anyway, even though all those questions would ones I wanted to know, and found important, it was full speed ahead and damn the torpedos because "I could fix everything" I was so smart, thoght I had been through so much, that I forgot it takes two..

Ah how that experience led into my hero status with second wife..Now thats when the questions would have been valuable if I used them, again I could fix it..yeah right..

This is a great tool for anyone who is in love and wants to love thier mate. The perfect outlook of the "In-love" state of mind gets challanged and brings in the love that says you want to understand all thier faults, weaknesses past and present, and love them anyways. You truly want to support them in everything.

My Pastor once said when he was talking about men complaining about thier wives, "What are you guys complaining about? You know who she was when you married her!" Unfortunatly, this is not allways true, and forwarned is forearmed. It doesn't mean you wont love them if thier are skeletons in the closet, it just means you deal with them right or find out if its possible to deal with them openly and honestly.

Gonna save it to my desktop.

Hey Opt, great to catch up with you here and I'm learning a lot from you again! Keep blazin the trail for me brother. I think I'm settling back in to some form of a normal life and can start hanging out on the boards more often. Need to start a new thread but not sure where. Here, or divorced? Maybe both.

Hi, Limbo. I'll jump in and answer your question since I mostly hang out on the Divorce and After Divorce forums.

Generally speaking, threads in the Divorcing/Divorced section have to do with issues surrounding the divorce itself. It's a great place to work through emotions, ask legal questions, discuss custody problems, etc.

In the After Divorce forum we discuss things that have to do with starting over. That's where you get dating questions, new relationship questions, that sort of thing. There's certainly some overlap, though.

For that matter, I have noticed people in SAA who should consider starting a new thread in Divorcing/Divorced but they have not. I think it's probably because it just turns into a continuation of their saga, plus they have a lot of friendships over there.

Thanks folks! I certainly didn�t expect such a volume of responses although I was fully expecting the vehemence. Clearly I�ve been around here long enough to know the right answer is to be fully open about my past. Nature Girl has a right to know who she is going out with and then act accordingly. Like the much repeated refrain �you can choose your actions but not the consequences.� I guess adultery is one of those actions that has life-long consequences.

Melody�s comment is thought provoking: at what point does one consider someone they�re going out with as a prospective spouse? I�m not sure about Nature Girl. We have a lot to learn about each other; but I suppose she has potential. Of course according to Harley just about any two people can have a successful marriage if they take the right approach and are willing to meet each other�s most important EN�s etc ( I realize that�s a theoretical construct and I certainly hope to spend the rest of my life with someone whom I can meet their most important EN�s as naturally as possible � and likewise have mine met with the same ease). I�ve seen that overwhelming questionnaire and would present it to a potential marriage partner; a little joint project I suppose. Maybe during a weekend getaway I could leave it on the night stand.

So, AGG, and MJ and Schtoop thanks for putting it to me straight. I knew I could get a little �encouragement� here. Funny thing is we�ve talked all around the subject including how much detail we really need to know about each other�s past. That�s one of the reasons I was hoping she�d get into some Harley material, so she could see why I�m so interested in knowing everything about her; I now know how important all that history is in achieving true intimacy. One of the very first things I said to NG was �I have nothing to hide and you can ask me anything � I will give you the truth� � I meant it and have honored it. She has yet to ask if I was ever unfaithful.

Arp, I appreciate your sentiment. NG knew me a while before we started dating and she would not have made herself available if she didn�t trust my basic character. I�ve vowed to go with MB to the best of my ability, so I feel it�s only right that I make an effort to disclose things about me that might not be too savory. You may be right: it may not be my true nature to commit adultery and the circumstances may have simply been too overwhelming for my boundaries at the time. But, the fact that I let it happen remains and that self doubt will be with me forever, however small.

Ugh. I guess this will either strengthen our relationship or �dot, dot, dot.�

Thanks for stopping in Limbo! I would get a thread going at D board as you will still have a few Divorce things popping up for a while. It takes a good amount of time to settle in, and Pink hasn�t even moved out yet. But don't be a stranger here!

thanks again everyone!

opt

Yeah opt, you get it though, we are driven by our needs, and everybody is suceptable to theirs. I left WW once and my boundaries were weak. It took 6 mos before I got together with another woman, and another 1 1/2 years with her before it ended with her. It was an affair, but I didn't see it that way because I felt I was going for good.

But in the end it was about me and the messed up emotional state I was in. I never did that again, although with plenty of temptations and mostly because I would not ever be a part of that again. I protected myself. As NG and you practice that, and share the lessons you've learned, trust can be built.

I don't think you need to announce all right off the bat, but as a topic comes up, be honest and share. It's hard to know this far into it if she's a prospective mate or not...but it might be a consideration on down the road and at that point it might be a little late in the game to suddenly disclose. You don't want to wait so long she feels you withheld information...maybe next time the subject arises...

Sh2p! This is a hard balance to get. No doubt. I guess it's the joys of being divorced, I'm sometimes preoccupied when I'm with NG wondering what D9 is up to; and I know S14 wishes I was around more. It's truly heart breaking and sometimes brings back the anger I have at wXw that she didn't try more.

My only consolation is that I know I'm twice the Dad I used to be and when I have them I am very focussed on them. I do what I can in between, but they know I have a life too. Fortunately, NG understands I'm a Dad first; and she knows if she didn't like it she would simply have a choice to make ~ I would say my boundaries are firmly in place when it comes to the kids.

There's no comfortable answer here; it's just the ugliness of Divorce: the kids are the losers. I see my job as making that loss as minimal as possible.

Opt

Thanks KayC, I spent some time with NG over the w/e and I've been very attuned to an opportunity to have that discussion about the past. I'm not worried about it, I just think it's only fair she know everything about me, and I expect she will as things continue to go very well. We keep discovering new ways that we think alike.
opt

Opt, I know you are trying to do the right thing, and I give you credit for that. Having said that, you know as well as I do that the above comment is a bit of a fig leaf . You guys are well past the stage of first or second date, therefore some topics become relatively obvious to have brought up without being asked.

I was never amused to hear about unfaithfulness, numerous bankruptcies, mental illness, etc, after weeks of being involved with someone, and being told "well you never asked". Sure, there was always an explanation and a "but...", but I wish I had been clued in earlier, before things got too tangled up.

The "don't ask don't tell" approach is one that should be left at the doorstep between casual dating and a relationship, whether or not the latter leads to marriage.

You know this as well as I do, so I don't mean to preach to you. You should tell NG about your past, and the sooner the better.

AGG

Well, I got THAT over with. And it was NO FUN!

She was really upset for a while and all I could do was give her time and try to reassure her without words, staying close and rubbing her back.

Eventually when we could talk she understood that it is in my past and I've done all the examination and learning from the situation that I could. No details disclosed, just that I let it happen and it was the worst most selfish thing I've ever done and I have already put protections in place to make sure it never happens again.

One of the things I love most about NG is how she handles things. She is emotional, but she doesn't let her emotions rule or cloud her thinking or her reactions. These are the demons of her past. She intends to keep them there.

She asked why I felt compelled to tell her and that she didn't need to know. I said that I felt like our relationship had very big potential and that it was important for her to know everything about me if we were to continue to get more serious/intimate. She got it.

Then we made pizzas using big portabello mushrooms as crust. An hour later we were slow dancing in the living room to Kenny Chesney.

...It was the right thing to do even though it suckkkkked. And she was a little upset that I didn't bring it up last week when there was admittedly a better opportunity to do so. I hope the subject of my past never comes up again.

moving on...

On a more upbeat note, she noticed I've been asking her "how do you feel about..." and asked why I phrase questions that way. Gave me a good chance to illustrate the concept of POJA. She was very interested and is into it.

opt

Good work .

AGG

Good job! You've done the right thing.

Good job! I'm glad it had a positive outcome.

Wow, opt. If ever there was a prime example of "man up," that was it! I'm proud of you!

Thanks everyone for the positive sentiments. It means a lot coming from folks whose integrity I admire.

Wow, what a weekend!
NatureGirl's birthday was Friday. I took her and her daughter to the nail salon and then her and her son out to a Boston club to see this band. We got back to her place at around midnight and daughter wasn't home which I was a little surprised about (she's 19). 30 minutes later a knock at the door: cops. "Mrs. NG, you're daughter's been in a terrible accident and she's on her way to MGH in an ambulance." Spent the rest of the evening and next morning in the ER. She is okay... a total miracle. Picked up my son at 9am Saturday as promised for hair cuts and clothes shopping. Dropped him and 1p ~ he does a little job with wxw; picked up DD9. Took daughter in to hospital spent a couple hours there until they released NG's daughter. Spent most of today with NG, her daughter, and DD9. I thought I did alright - able to keep my commitments to my kids (including tending to D9 and her fever/sore throat), able to get to church, colored eggs for Easter, walked the beach; and still was there for NG.

How does any of this relate to the topic of dating and relationships?

I guess it doesn't. Except that at no point did I consider not going through any of that with NG, or trying to do what I could for her. I guess that means something. I was also very impressed with NG's handling of the situation in a lot of ways. It told me a lot about her character and crisis management abilities. We worked well together; there's a wavelength match for sure.

opt

You know, opt, it sounds like two adults doing adult things and handling them like adults.

To which I say, "good for you." (And NG, too!).

Accually it is important that you both see how you act under pressure in a crisis situation. I think it means a lot. Now if she or you went into a three day drinking binge just to, well ya know, "deal with it", lol... well you get my drift...

Now you can feel even better about sharing yourself with someone you trust even more.

Like Fredo said. ITA

Hats off to you and NG! I, too, think it very important to see how people react in a crisis...because eventually, we all have them. I think you showed her you are a friend who can be counted on and you both learned something about each other. What a weekend, though, did you ever get any sleep?

Thanks guys. Yeah, things calmed down after a day or so. I went NG to get some stuff out of the car. What a mess. I can't believe she survived.

It's been quite a learning experience. Not just regarding relationships but what I have to be aware of as my kids get older.

Anyway, it definitely brought NG and I closer together. She said today how much she appreciated I was there for all of it. From my side, I am to the point that I just want to be with her, even if it is a crisis situation; I like her a lot. I was glad to have the opportunity to share the experience with her, even as arduous as it was.

opt

Wow, Opt.

I missed this update from a few days ago.

Anyway, it definitely says a lot about where you two are if you can come together at a time of crisis like this. It's very good on her end, knowing you well enough and feeling comfortable enough to rely on you in a time of need. And, it sounds like you came through with flying colors in being there for her.

Also, kudos for being able to accomplish all of this while still being there for your children. It can be quite a juggling act, believe me I know.

Went through something similar with PG a month or so ago. One of her best friends lost their 30 year-old son to suicide. A week of mourning was culminated in a small memorial service on the beach with just a handful of friends and family. She leaned on me pretty heavily during the whole ordeal and brought me along to help host the service and reception afterwards. She thanked me over and over for being there and willing to help, but I also let her know how much it meant to me knowing that she felt I could be someone to rely on like that. It works both ways and can really strengthen a relationship.

About the juggling act, do you ever feel stressed or overwhelmed trying keep NG, your children, job, other obligations, and most importantly, yourself all satisfied and in the proper priority? I feel busy and stretched thin at times, but love every minute of it. I feel more alive than ever before.

Sh2p, it most certainly doesn't surprise me that you've had a similar experience, lol. The parallel universe is still on course!

I do feel at times like I wish I could be more available to BOTH my kids AND my girlfriend. Plus- so many things I need to do just to keep the house running (laundry, shopping, cleaning). The only way I've seen to get around it is that I spend time with kids/gf doing things that I would do on my own: my daughter often goes grocery shopping with me, we make it fun together. NG and I have done the same thing, we also cleaned our cars together one lovely Sunday afternoon.

I think it's just one of the sad realities of Divorce. But then again, even in a good MB marriage you're spending 15-20 hours/week in UA (just you and wife, no kids). I'm not trying to compare a good marriage with D, and maybe I'm off base on this but it is something I've thought about; how much attention are kids allotted in a MB marriage? - perhaps someone can jump in and address that. Maybe a good question for the 101 board, but gosh, I feel a little out of place there, lol.

opt

Okay, I did some math on his time thing. Scary I know.

Lets say you get a babysitter and make Friday night "date night": 4-5 hours UA (Dinner, show, talking, $150)
Saturday you spend with the kids, presumably together going to soccer games, Little League, cleaning up the house/yard, visiting friends: 8 hours kids time
Saturday night you send the kids to the parents for the night (alternating weekly - good for you if you also have a sister in law or two to get into the mix): 6-8 hours UA (at home chilling)
Sunday am: 3 more hours UA over breakfast.
Sunday late am pick up the kids - Family Day: 8-10 hours kids time
Monday through Thursday night is a whirlwind of making dinner, homework, putting kids to bed: 1 hour kids time, then 1 hour UA if you can manage (NO TV!).

So, that's 16-19 hours UA and 18-22 hours kids time in an idyllic situation with everyone working together. [Me, I never had the in-laws to support the plan.... ]

Now, let's take divorce. It's obviously different for everyone due to custody arrangements.
I have my kids Wed night to Saturday and every other Sunday til around 3 or so. Wed - Fri is 5p-9p making dinner, getting ready for bed: 12 hours of occasionally tense kid time. Saturday: 6-7 hours kid time. [that's one week - the next week add 6-7 more for Sunday].
About 18 hours one week and 24 the next with my kids.
Meanwhile I spend most of Sunday afternoon and evening with NG: ~8 hours UA
Monday after work we get together: 4 hours UA.
Tuesday is pool night: 0 UA.
About 12 hours UA one week and up to 20 the next presuming Saturday I spend with NG. [and the ex-spouse has become a very expensive built-in babysitter]

Interesting.

~opt

Hey Opt, that sounds like a pretty good breakdown of UA and kid time, both pre- and post-divorce.

My guess is you were trying to achieve the pre-divorce schedule AFTER you had discovered MB's and were in your best plan A. If you were anything like me, there was nowhere close to 15 hours of UA before the affair when we had our heads stuck in the sand.

I'm also guessing that with NG, the UA is truely full attention. Preacher girl calls it being "present", where you have each other's full attention, really listen, and are fully interactive. It is easy to do that with her, maybe because the relationship is still new and fresh. I know that I fell way short of being "present" with my ex-wife, but that's easy to do when you have kids, work, and household duties all pulling at you.

One other word of caution, and I only say this from my own experience. Be sure you are equally "present" in the time you spend with your children. I found it very useful to adapt some of the MB principles to my relationship with the children, also. They need UA (which I'm sure you know), not just coexisting in the same room. They need to share RC. Most importantly, I have conciously learned to avoid angry outbursts and disrespectful judgements with them, also. If there is a behavior issue, we discuss it calmly, yet firmly. But, I try my best to avoid acting out in anger.

I also agree, having to split the children with the exwife makes achieving 15 hours of UA time with PG so much simpler.

Nice breakdown...just to clarify....when do you take the kids back to their mom on Saturday? And when you get them on Sunday what time do you get them? Just curious.

I'm trying it (15 hours UA) on my dog first...I figure if I can't manage it with him I have no business getting into a relationship! LOL

one hour a day walking
one hour a day tossing the ball/goose/etc & giving bellyrubs
two hours a week taking him on ride to park & A&W

= 16 hours/week Yay, I made it!

(I know, I'm over the edge...) Scary, huh!

Good breakdown in an ideal life. Real life gets in the way of these sensitive margins: overtime at work, car breakdowns, home emergencies, family crises, extra curriculars even cause tremors.

Officially I get them starting after school on Wednesday (so if they get sick during school xwx is supposed to deal with it, anything after school is my responsibility). Therefore 3pm is officially when I would then drop them off on Saturday or Sunday depending on the week. In reality, she tends to take them a little earlier as I often work a couple hours on Saturday and she tends to take them to Sunday dinner at her Dad's (who is dying of cancer). I also can pick up D9 on let's say Monday night and go shopping for an hour or two if I desire, and I've kept them both a little longer on the Sat/Sunday if we were out doing something. There is a lot of flexibility in our approach, much to the kids' benefit I believe. Like I said in someone's thread: xwx seems to be better at divorce than she was at marriage~ which actually makes sense given that in divorce there is no fear on her part of becoming intimate (possibly the root of her issues).

Why do you ask ing Woman?

Opt

I'd say you have a very lucky dog to get that much attention!

opt

Ah Kay, Thats awesome, lol, I bet I still would have to practice being that normal

Couldn't agree more Schtoop. In fact, the day I learned about LB's, my relationship with my kids took on a new life. 20 months later, I can't imagine going back to the way I was - not a bad Dad but the LB's with them (and wxw) undermined my own efforts.
Good guess. Won't make that mistake again.

opt

I'm responding to this because it's in a humorous vein, but I have actually made a decision for myself going forward that is completely serious.

I have decided to focus my UA time on my running and my guitar playing.

I am horrible at personal relationships. I'm better at running and guitar playing.

Not a lot better, mind you, but better.

'Cause I'm nosy. LOL. Also fascinated with a father (and there are many on here) that involved with their children.

XH just gave up the biggest part of his scheduled visitation this weekend to go on a 4wheeler ride. Ds is thrilled that he didn't have to go to his dad's. Your experience and care for your children is just different from what I am living.

And my dh would LOVE to have that much visitation. He was the BH and still only gets standard every other weekend. He hates it. He misses his kids so bad.

I find that hard to accept, Fred. Did something happen?

opt

Thanks SW. I feel like I've done plenty of things wrong raising my kids. But at least you've pointed out that I've done my best to spend time with them when I could. I've been very lucky.

opt

Good for you, Fred!

Yes it was humorous, but then again, if I can spend 15 hrs/wk UA with my dog, should it be that hard to fit it in with a spouse? Yes it gets more complicated with children...sometimes it seems like a juggling act trying to fit it all in. That's just another reason I don't understand how some people have TIME to have affairs! Oh yeah...they aren't spending it on spouse/children.

Yeah Kay, and then if you don't sleep it saves a lot of time also.

Hey Fred cheer up, your just having a down period probably, don't take it seriuos.
It will pass.

Hi opt, thanks for asking.

No, nothing happened. I've just been giving a lot of thought to both my past and present (who knows what the future will bring, right?). Two failed marriages, and a lack of viable prospects on the radar screen.

Dancing Gal is nice, and I enjoy her company, but it's clear that she's not looking for anything. Church Gal has found herself someone (she's brought him the past few Sundays and seems to really glom onto him). The online dating thing has resulted in a handful of one-message exchanges and then, *poof* - nothing.

You've read my thread, and you've offered a lot of good advice and support. But there's no getting around the fact that I'm not "good at it." Some guys (just read about the number of OM here) are real good at meeting women's EN and to them it just seems to come naturally. Not me.

This evening I ran into a long-time friend and his wife. In a moment of candor I said the same thing: I was giving up on relationships. I've had my shot. Her response to me was, "don't give up, just take a break."

Which is what I'm going to do. I'm running more and training harder, and now I'm renewing my love of playing music on the guitar. I'm just going to stop trying...

Accually Fred, this sounds exactly normal. I know how the online dating thing works, and you've got to realize, many of the people out there are right where you are. Sometimes they just need some attention and validation, and the PC can be an easier, and safer, way to get that.

I have responded to girls there, and got sporadic responses back also. Even though I have just wanted to start a dialoge and had no expectations. I think that when they get lonely, they get interested in contact, human condition since the begining of time.

Do what you want, you have nothing to prove to anybody, and we all know your caliber as a man. So does God, and he will give you the desires of your heart, you can count on it.

So, I took D9 to her mother's to get something. I stayed on the porch. Wxw not home. Lo and behold who shows up while I'm sitting there but wxw and OM#2. Ostensibly he's there to consult on some small construction wxw is doing, per their conversation. I said "what's up" and did not shake hands. Did not make small talk. Eventually D9 came down with whatever she was after.

Last night I was not "bothered" or "upset" but something about this scene did stick in my mind and make me feel uneasy. Was it just the "trigger-ness" of it?

Let's face it I have absolutely nothing to complain about - there are those (Including many here on this board) with much more gut-wrenching situations on their hands. I mean no disrespect and would not want to change places.

But, having little experience with these matters, I am not sure what this means. Is it normal to still have triggers even though I�ve totally moved on? For heaven�s sake, it�s been over a year on the separation, 9 mo since D was final, the kids are adjusting well, wxw and I are amicable & appropriate, and I am dating a beautiful woman who digs me to pieces. Why would it affect me at all that wxw is still chumming around with OM#2?

I�m fine today, looking forward to a weekend with NG (wxw has the kids starting tomorrow at noon). This was on my mind last night and I was wondering if anyone had any experience or thoughts to offer.

Opt

As long as it's just a break... and not permanent! ;-)

Seems to me, from reading your posts, you have a lot to offer the right woman.

Most of the guys I meet (online or IRL) seem to be only interested in one thing. And the few who weren�t said that most of the women they met were only interested in one thing-money or �a husband� (any husband, not necessarily that particular guy).

I hope your break gives you some time to focus on yourself, but if you really want love don�t give up!

And yes, I�ll try to take my own advice when I get discouraged myself.

I've been divorced 10 years, and I still get occasional triggers, or random feelings of bitterness, from some interactions with the ex. So, as they say, triggers happen .

None of them are of the sort of "I wish we had stayed together", more along the lines "if you hadn't screwed up, our kids wouldn't have to have two households", or "what a PITA it is to deal with you!".... So as you can see, these are not of the sort of wishing to be back with her, and I thank my lucky stars that given who she turned out to be that I am not with her, but they are nonetheless triggers of the "joys" of divorce.

Anyway, I am not making much sense, but I just wanted to validate that triggers are perfectly normal even years after divorce.

AGG

You make a lot of sense to me AGG. Thanks.
opt

Yeah Opt, after being screwwed over by someone you gave your whole heart and soul to, will allways be a trigger.

What could be worse.. Oh I know..when they act all friendly..

Nah its normal, it would abnormal if you didn't feel strange.

This thread has been very helpful to me with regards to triggers:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2243454&page=1

And yes, that's all it is and it's very normal...it doesn't mean you want her back or wish anything different, it just means that the brain has been taken back in time to another time/place and the emotions associated with that time are brought to the present. When this happens it's good to remind yourself of your current life and how much better it is, it helps squelch those triggers.

Thanks KC, that helps. Mark is awesome.

I do try to remind myself that I'm better off. That's not hard to do because it's so vividly obvious. However, I do still feel sad for my kids on a regular basis. I wish I could have continued to provide for them a safe, two parent household.

However, I wasn't happy. That is becoming more and more obvious even to me. I also believe the whole experience has allowed me to become a better overall person and a better parent, even if I am only actually with them 50% of the time; I'm a better, more tuned in person 100% of the time and that has to be good for them.

So, I'll let the triggers be triggers. It's natural and normal.

opt

I have an update.

NatureGirl and I spent the weekend together. Just her and I. No phones. Away.

We had it planned for a little while. I had concert tickets for a concert about 4 hours away (I REALLY wanted to see this particular band). The plan was to stay the night since it was too far to drive home that late. Then about a month ago we decided to take Monday off and stay two nights. So, we were together for a solid two and a half days.

Unbelievable. We had so much fun. We are so alike in the way we approach things. We had no set plans but managed to find things to do and totally enjoyed each other's company. We talked a lot about everything. There was not one conflict about anything. We totally relaxed, something we both needed.

The only thing that makes me uneasy is that I'm not uneasy, lol. I feel like I've been very fortunate to meet NG. I keep waiting to see something that isn't right, or some sign that it's all too good to be true, but nothing like that happens. We just keep growing closer.

opt

I'm glad to hear things are working out for you, Opt!

Sounds like you are really enjoying and appreciating your new relationship, and rightly so. You deserve it!

Sounds awesome Opt! Very happy for you man. Just stay in the present and enjoy it. If it continues to develop, great! Try not to over analyze if you can. I'm not speaking from experience here, just my opinion from the cheap seats. Who did you see by the way?

I liked Mark, too.

That's how it was when I was dating my wife, it just got better and better with time, so I married her . This is how it works when you meet The One.

Glad to hear things are going so well, bud!

AGG

People make mistakes, sometimes before they know better. It can get pretty brutal here because emotions run high where affairs are concerned, even years down the road.

Me too

I'm very happy for you, opt. A little envious, too.

Glad things are still going so well with NG, Opt.

A couple of things, sounds like you're still in the infatuation stage, which is most excellent. You said there wasn't a single conflict, and that is nothing but great.

However, no matter how perfectly things are going at this time, there WILL be conflicts. It's how the two of you deal with them as they come up that will make you guys or break you. But, I don't need to tell you that.

Triggers is an interesting discussion. I haven't been triggered by my ex-wife much since the divorce. There are times when she is unreasonable or condescending, and it makes me glad to be free of her, but nothing that brings back the horrible feelings of betrayal. In fact, she let it out that she is seeing someone regularly now and I actually felt a little glad for her.

I hope this never happens to you, but watch out for triggers with your new love interest. They can be really tough to deal with. I have inadvertently triggered PG a couple of times now, and I can see the hurt and love bank withdrawals. She even recognizes it as a trigger and not totally logical, but that doesn't erase what she is feeling at the time.

I just came back from a four-day weekend away with PG. Unfortunately, she gave me a major trigger on the third night, I won't go into details on this forum. Overall we had a great time, but it was still in the background on the final day that could have been better. Still trying to sort it all out, how much was me overreacting and how much was a legitimate gripe. Will maybe get into more later and resurrect my thread, but just want to give you a heads up on what's to come.

Schtoop- please continue to post or resurrect your thread. I think your experience would be helpful to all of us. Very glad to hear you and Opt doing so well. Plus it is always better to learn from someone else's mistakes and missteps. The future still looks very bright!

I think Opt and NG have dealt with a little bit of conflict, but that may be the wrong word here. I'm talking about Opt's recent admission about his past. Wouldn't call it a conflict, but certainly a moment of uncomfortableness for them both. I think he handled it superbly and showed her just how important honesty is to him moving forward.

Keep blazin' the trail guys!

Limb, thanks for your thoughts. I forgot to mention we saw Stone Sour. They were very good live and I recommend you look for them in your area. The tour never made it near you and it's almost over. Also Halestorm played and they are worth seeing as well.

Schtoop, why does it not surprise me that you and PG had a weekend together around the same time as me and NG. It's uncanny, lol.

Thanks AGG and CP. Time will tell. NG disclosed some news yesterday that I'm having difficulty with. I will elaborate later when I have time. I may be heading for disillusion stage, but I still feel very drawn to this woman.

Fred and KayC, thanks.

Sid!!!! Nice to see you. Hope all's well.

bbl

opt

You and NG have gone through some "emergency" triage relationship stuff Opt, it was a good sign of being able to depend on each other in a crisis. That is allways attractive to either sex.

Dis-illusionment well, you strike me as the type who doesn't want to live in illusion anyways, so the more you know who she is, warts and all, the stronger love can grow.

I am a believer, and a Christian, and if I only expected God to love me when I could fool him into being perfect, well I would be dancing around all the time with that fig leaf on.

That 1 or 2 faults I have,(JK), all the faults I have, and still I am around and valuable and he protects me. Well the same goes with relationships and we all have our blunders and blind spots.

As you know its how we deal with them that spells success.

You sound like your doin good Opt. Hoping for trust, communication,intimacy and everything to go in a good direction for both of you. Better than you even dreamed.

I liked Mark, too.


I've gone so far as to be in touch with Mark on the phone.

Any clarification or correction would be appreciated.

Thanks CP for the encouragement. You are absolutely right, and I also went into the R with eyes wide open; what she shared with me I suspected anyway. Again, I'll elaborate when I can.

opt

He is an incredible guy and very smart and has also helped me tremendously.

I do talk to him from time to time still. I miss him posting here too.

Hey Opt.,

If you're going where I think you're going with this, we truly do live in a parallel universe. I can only share my experience if it might help.

Our weekend getaway was to New Orleans and Jazzfest. What a blast! The only problem was there was just too much to see and do.

Mumford and Sons were definitely the highlight of the weekend.

Opt, I don't know where you are going with this, so I will wait. But I do want to say that you too recently shared some news from your past with her, so perhaps she feels safe enough to share something with you. It's all part of the discovery process, unless of course it's a deal breaker...Hopefully not of course.

I'll stay tuned.

AGG

Both had very insightful posts. Hope both are doing well.
Opt

I just saw Mark post on a thread elsewhere so he's still around.

That's good. Mark is excellent.

opt

IMO the man is a valuable asset not only to the forum, but to us people as well.

My feeling was that we are all here trying to learn how to apply the MB principles to our own lives, and help others do so when we can.

opt

okay, here goes.

it turns out that Nature Girl is flat broke and deep in debt. She filed for Bankruptcy last week. Based on my observations, I suspected she was already in bankruptcy. It�s not hard to figure someone doesn�t have a lot of disposable income.

Red Flag? Deal Breaker?

Here�s how I feel.
One thing I�ve found very refreshing about NG is her appreciation for the simple things. She has never asked for a thing. She�s never suggested an activity or to go out to anywhere specific. She would just as soon stay in and make dinner as go to a restaurant. We have fun together no matter what we do, so going out isn�t an issue; and it�s nothing that I find that enticing. I don�t have much money, and the Divorce made that even more true - so being frivolous is not my idea of a good time. Also FS is in the bottom half of my EN�s. In fact I like spending a little money on NG because she appreciates it so much when I do. Fortunately, I have had a lot of very elaborate vacations in my life (cruises and time in warm places); I�ve been there and done that, i can live without it...especially seeing how much fun I had with NG in cold climate Maine for the weekend.

Two things give me pause. One is that if I�m going to spend the rest of my life with this person, at which point does her lack of financial security, at this point (she�s 45), affect me personally? Ever? When we retire? When we want to take a vacation? When we get married and move in together...

The other is that personally I feel that it takes a certain something to get to the point of financial destitution. In NG�s case, evidently it was an extreme lack of boundaries, and a perceived need to be super-parent while her kids were teenagers (her divorce happened when the kids were about 10). NG�s ex became a falling down drunk dead-beat dad and never provided one cent for CS, according to her. I have no idea how he has stayed out of jail, but apparently he almost killed himself with the drinking more than once. She lost her house, everything, in the years after the D. Meanwhile she worked feverishly 60+ hours a week to make sure the kids had whatever they would have had with 2 working parents. I don�t have any reason to believe she was irresponsible per se. She has admitted she made many mistakes including not simply spending time in Alanon and having the kids do so. She is extremely embarrassed and regretful and literally did everything imaginable to stay out of this situation. She has been working with a lawyer/financial planner since before I met her to deal with it - her daughter�s wrecking the car last weekend was the last straw.

NG has an excellent work ethic. I work in the same company. I see how she is. She is healthy and smart and able to recover financially eventually.

As I said, I have thought something like this was going on since the second or third date when she didn�t offer to pay for anything. I kept going out with her because it didn�t bother me. Now that I know it for sure, it still doesn�t bother me that she has no $. However, there is clearly a history of poor boundaries (with the kids, with the ex). Do I go with my faith in humanity and believe that people can learn/change/grow? I got burned by that one once before. But NG definitely seems different. She�s so much more responsible and proactive than ExWW. And honest. She admits her mistakes. She tries to improve herself (again I see that in her approach to her profession). She�s reading FilSil, we talk about the concepts. She has Cloud and Townsend - wants to read that next. We�ve talked a lot about our want to grow and learn from our mistakes. Her $LB continues to be very high and I am very much in love with her. (She also thinks the world of me. )

Where am I going wrong? I'm truly interested in all views on this.

opt

My advice is simply to get a financial plan together, dicsipline yourselfs to it, and see how it goes. There is no hurry right? You both are adults and obviously she won't have to work those hours or wants to either now.

Its just Money, but it has to be managed, thats all.

Hey opt, I actually came across something like this in my dating experiences . I found that the key question in these situations is whether the financial problems were due to the person's inherent habits ( ) or due to extenuating circumstances beyond their control. I met one of each; one I ended up dumping like a hot potato, the other one I married . So it all depends on the big picture.

The first one did not tell me anything about her financial woes at the beginning. I "assumed" that because she worked at the same company as me, in the same profession, with similar experience (and thus had a good income) that she would be financially sound. But as we went out a few times, I started seeing some weird signs. I always paid for our dates, but on one date, after I paid for our dinner, she offered to buy us coffee at Starbucks. I thought that was sweet, until I ordered a mocha and she pulled out a few single dollar bills from her pocket and said something about "I guess I'll just skip lunch tomorrow"... Can we say "Lovebuster"? Then we had the issue of her telling me to not call her at home, and of course I started wondering if she was living with someone. Turned out that she never answered her phone because she had collections calling her all the time. She finally admitted that she declared bankruptcy recently, although she never explained to me how she ended up being bankrupt. And given that she had only visitation of her young kids ( ), that made it that much more difficult for me to understand what she did to end up in that situation. The problem for me was not that she had no money, the problem was the shroud of secrecy that I felt always surrounded her. I get it that no one wants to advertise having financial issues, but I found the secrecy to be way worse than the actual issue. So I dumped her, and found out that a couple of years later she ended up going on disability (although everyone knew she was not disabled), which just cemented my conclusion that she was bad news.

In contrast, I met another lady who by our second date wanted to tell me about a skeleton in her closet, in case it would be a dealbreaker for me. Turned out that she made a poor investment a few years earlier, and had to take on some serious losses in the process of unloading it. It really was no big deal for me, especially because I could see that she was upfront about things, and that her finanical balance sheet was presently in great shape, better than mine actually. So I married her .

So my point with these examples is that you have to understand the reason and background for the financial mess of your partner. If it is part of their character, I'd be very careful, because once you are married, finances get very hard to keep separate, and their poor choices/habits affect you (just ask holdingontoit on EN board). If, OTOH, the financial issues are due to circumstances that you can understand and appreciate, and their present financial habits appear to be in line with yours, then maybe you can get past it. But again, if you see present day habits that give you pause, do not overlook that, no matter how in love you might be. Financial mismanagement can be a fatal lovebuster. Remember the big three lovebusters in marriage (per AGG): money, sex, religion/politics.

AGG

I agree...

All in one years time my dh was divorced by his WW, had an accident that involved 8 surgeries on his knee and then lost his job. Bankruptcy followed within a year.

I listened closely to him about money and observed his actions.

I decided to marry him....

I had a dream not long ago that my near perfect credit score of 790 was brought down to 240 by him....lol...probably not far from the truth.

It is just money. And there are no guarantees about that kind of stuff. It can be here today and gone tomorrow through no one's 'fault'.

I want strong worth ethic, willingness to live within ones means and the trust that we will be fed and clothed.

As my good friend said to me, (the night I met dh as a matter of fact) 'you've been happy with nothing and happy with a lot and unhappy with a lot.'

Ah AGG, you have cracked the nucleus of my idea of a plan..

To explain, lets just say that many times lack of discipline, (myself included), leads to a place where we just look up and say, "What happened?", and we talk about how it was out of our control, but when we get honest, we must admit we had everything to do with it.

Of course, money is also a great equalizer, the things of this world, from the nesessities of life, to the frivolous, which can be purchased, also reflect your real values. If one member of a partership such as marriage causes total devestation and loss, and the other must make up for it, the bank doesn't care as an institution. It can't, if it is to retain objectivity in a world full of people making mistakes. It doesn't come easily, and its why you earn it as much or more than why, and how you use it that counts. Talk about "multiplying the loaves". " Give to Ceaser what is Ceasers" as Christ said.


So basically, creating a plan to get out of debt, and implementing it, will also mean we all must face ourselves, and our weak spots in finances. Its just money and it was invented and/or created to serve us. Having a surplus means very little exept that we don't have to worry about it. The real quality of life comes from within.

If while creating a plan, and implementing it, you discover problems with perception and personal weaknesses, you have the time to work them out, and with that willingness and humility you can learn so much together about yourselves and your ability to change and grow. The real value and the stewardship of money, and the value of the person or persons you are serving with it.

Because NG was involved with a real POS of a guy, and she was willing to work long hours to help her family is a good sign of her character, I can understand what she went through, as I am financially in quite a mess because of my own problems at home, and the mixing up of emotions and money and survival. Now she has a chance to work and live for what she wants in the future, and put those painful wastes of money and resources in the past.

I would encourage her to do just that, and to put them in the past where they belong, and help her to overcome any intenal struggles she might have in that also as she removes emotion from money. They really don't belong together, although we are forced to deal with finances in almost every aspect of a capitalistic society. Money is just paper and what it says it is, "Legal tender for debts both public, and private" emphasis on Private.

You and her POJA and enthusiastic agreement privately on the value of money and where it fits in your relationship is the challange now before you both, work on it and give it time, thats what love is right? Thats what we do with things we find important, we work on them, give our time, and even spend our money on them.

Great post SW.. ITA

Anyway, I still remember when you started posting here, opt. I haven't read this thread but I have seen little updates from you here and there and I am happy to hear that things are going well for you

Opt, you ask "Where am I going wrong?" but I don't see anything in your description of NGs financial woes that has anything to do with you...? My take on it is, just keep spending time getting to know her and monitor how she does.

This is a bit selfish of me to recommend, I admit, because it's the approach I'd want someone to take with me. While I didn't hit the point of bankruptcy, I came close when I couldn't pay the bills and my renters didn't pay rent for a couple months. Eviction aint always cheap. Note: I have renters because I can't afford to live in the house me and my ex bought but it's 150K upside down so I can't sell it either. It will take me about 3-4 years if I'm super-disciplined, but more like 4-5 years to pay that debt off, and that's with me currently living on about 1/3 of my salary. The rest goes towards debts. If I don't need to replace my 8-yr old car before then. If I keep my son in the not-so-great-but-free public schools. You get the picture.

It's gotten awkward with some guys I've dated because I barely have money for babysitting let alone money for eating out at the kinds of places they're accustomed to. So I never offer to treat, unless it's something I make at home or I can get free tickets for something.

But, on the other hand, you make an EXCELLENT point that at 45 one should be better with the budget. I am a fairly frugal person and anyone who goes shopping with me knows that my good looks do not come with premium price tag. Anyone who looks at my budget can see that I am really working toward this debt and am paying it off. I'm not being irresponsible. And I'm thinking only by lengthy observation will you know if her money habits are irresponsible or just circumstantial.

If I had a third hand, lol, I would mention that two of my friends are ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE with money/budgets/debts but their husbands absolutely love, adore, cherish them. They gripe about working hard to pay their bills but you can see a twinkle in their eye that whatever else those ladies are bringing to the table their men think it's worth it.

Yup what she said..

Well money is an issue because it's one of the leading causes of divorce. People view money differently, so it's important for the two of you to learn how you view money because it'll help you understand each other and how to deal with the money issue. Some view it as power, some as security, some as just a commodity, some it burns a hole in their pocket, others hang on to it as tightly as they can, you get the picture.
With any couple, it's good for them to discuss money, and to together set a budget and live within their means. There needs to be money set aside for a rainy day, a future planned for, and current bills paid on time. Both also need their own personal spending money and one person should not have complete control of the money. It is good that NG is not obsessed with money and can enjoy the simple things in life that don't cost much. It could be that some mistakes led to her situation but she's learned from them...at any rate, it's a good thing to discuss. If a person can't discuss money, they're almost sure to have problems later on down the road. Simply put, just because a person has had a bankruptcy in their past would not rule out having a relationship with them, but would be cause for discussion.

I just wanted to thank all of you for your words of encouragement and thoughtful commentary. I have plenty to think about and you folks have helped define some of the edges that were fuzzy for me in all of this with NG's financial situation.

We talked in some detail yesterday. She knew something was bothering me and told me later that she fully expected me to let her know it was all too much and that I couldn't go out with her anymore. She says she would have been deeply disappointed but would have understood; that everyone has things that are important to them. At heart, she continues to look at this relationship in a healthy way, I feel. She's enjoying me (as I do her) but understands we are dating and that comes with certain conditions (including possible temporariness).

I explained that it wasn't her financial situation per se that concerned me, but how it came to be and what steps she was taking to not re-live the experience. She has made a lot of forward steps and I really like how she admits to her failures, and takes responsibility for herself. To the point of being remorseful at times; I encourage her - we all make mistakes and it's what you do with them that counts.

I could go on but I really have to say I was overwhelmed with the support on this and I really appreciate all of your time and effort to help me out with this matter. Your guidance is as always well taken.

Suzie!! I want you to know that you helped guide me through one of the darkest times of my life. If there is ever any doubt of how you've affected the world in a positive way, please put it to rest. Not only am I personally in a better place due to your heartfelt (and direct...) input, but two young children have benefitted indirectly. Things could have been so much worse for them; the only way I can think of to thank you would be to attempt to help others as you have me. A tall order, but I will try.

opt

opt, that was so kind and I appreciate it so much You are definitely an asset to the forum and I am so glad you have stuck around to "pay it forward"!! Hoping it works out with NG ~ I smiled when I read about your story about the date and the pedicure LOL. Thanks again

I guess we've reached a new plateu. D9's dance recital is tonight and tomorrow night [hip-hop, so cute, lol]. I will attend tomorrow night with NG (tonight with S15). There will be MANY folks from the community of this small town present. I am very excited. I've never gotten into the PeytonPlace chit-chat, but I know we'll be noticed. I'm proud to be with NG. She was at the rehearsal with me and I introduced her to several friends. D9 is excited too, she loves NG.

Wxw will be there - not sure with whom (possibly her Dad). I don't anticipate any issues.

Any advice from my good friends here? Anything to watch out for? I know NG might be a little nervous, but I will reassure her.
opt

So NG has not met XW before? I'm a little surprised actually. I usually introduced to my XW anyone whom I was dating seriously enough to meet the kids on a regular basis - I think the X's deserve to know who comes in regular contact with the kids. This also avoids the first-time introduction in an awkward situation, like you are perhaps about to experience .

I think the best thing to do is when/if you come close to the XW, is to be proactive and come up to her and introduce NG. I would avoid showing NG off or being too affectionate with her around your XW, as to me that would appear a bit "in your face" and childish. Be sure to focus on NG so she does not feel left out, but also on your daughter since this is her event.

Don't know much about your XW, but unless she's a psycho, I wouldn't expect any issues .

AGG

Thanks AGG for the quick response. I was hoping to hear from you as I know you've had some experience in these areas. thanks for your view.

Actually NG and wxw have had their "hi how-do-you-do"s a couple of months ago. A chance meeting that worked out well, so that's done. Also, I still don't have NG around the kids all that much. Just once in a while at this point and for short periods - informal like.

Wxw is not physcho, lol. And I am not compelled to make her feel uncomfortable. I will make a point to be extra classy.

opt

That was a great idea AGG, about introducing significant other to ex prior to bringing around the kids. I would like to do that if the need should arise and would hope my ex would do the same courtesy.

Of course, I would have to find somebody first, but that's another issue!

Opt, you seem to be doing everything right. You are a class act my friend so I'm sure you will not have any issues at the event.

Yeah I don't know her either, but unless she is hell bent on looking innocent, or competitive, I wouldn't let it cramp my style or ruin you evening.

I like AGGs approaoch also, make the first move and introduce all around. Your DD will have a better time if you all seem able to handle things publicly well. At that age they are so self-conciuos.

Have a great time with NG and your kids

Thanks CP. NG's daughter was in the dance recitals several years ago, so she's really looking forward to reliving it a little. Last night was the first performance. An adorably excruciating 3 hours it was. ...I literally didn't even see wxw, so I have no worries.

The night will be significant mostly in that it will be the first time being out in public with NG in my home community on this scale. The significance will not be lost on NG; I believe it demonstrates another level of commitment.


Limb, I appreciate your sentiment and vote of confidence. I've certainly made mistakes. MB and this forum have helped me see things from another perspective so that "righting the course," not to mention anticipating what's ahead is much more possible.

opt

Sounds like everything went well, congrats .

AGG

Yup, thanks AGG. No problems at all. Didn't even see exww.
NG did her hair and makeup before the show. DS9 danced great and it was a really nice evening for her.

opt

You know, if you just remove one letter from your acronym, you'd have eww.

I wonder if that would start a trend...

Funny, Fred. I had a meeting wth my IC yesterday. She's coming along but I have a lot of work to do with her.

Anyway, she asked how me and exww were managing our "co-parenting" -- speaking of "eww."
-------------------------------------------------
Last ball I bought a small sailboat for my Daughter. (VERY small). Wexw wanted to go halves. I thought better of owning property with my STBXww at the time, so I bought it outright and ripped up the check she had given me. Today, having forgotten the accompanying phone conversation we had last fall, she asked if I wanted her help restoring the boat (it needs a lot of work). She felt some obligation since she was thinking it was half hers. I said "no thankyou, and by the way the boat is mine"
point: boy am I glad I did that. The thought of my Wexw lurking around here with paint brush in her hand..... no, I don't think so. D9 and I will be just fine stripping paint and making it pretty.


opt

Nicely done Opt. Sounds like a fun project for you guys.

Amazing, their mindsets! I'm glad you stuck to it!

Thanks Limb and Kay.
Its amazing the defense mechanisms that kick up. While I was talking to my IC, which I admit I do mostly for the sport of it... but it does help to verbalize some things with an �impartial� viewer... I again identified the resentment that I still harbor for my exww.

The resentments go from the recent emotional affair(s), to the secretive nature of her behavior, her haughty attitude towards our marriage, to her selfishness towards our kids, to her adoption of a sickeningly liberal attitude about human interactions, to the people she continues to surround herself with (including OM#2, a real pillar of moral character), to the lack of ability to let me know she was �lonely� for so long, to the lackluster attempts at recovering the marriage, to the total rejection of MB philosophy (calling it a �cult), to the original physical affair 10 years ago, to the refusal to try to get over whatever emotional block that prevented her from participating in SF (not to mention making me out to be the sick one: �you�re the sick one - married couples just don�t have sex that much�) [�I could go on, but the point I think is made�]

Other than that, I enjoyed being married to her.

I guess in their wayward little minds, we�re all just to �forgive and forget.� I will not forget. Doing so puts me in grave danger. Doing so puts me in the mindset that kept me married to her for 15 years: �she�s a good person underneath it all�she can change�her good outweighs her bad�I can do this for the benefit of my kids�I�m not perfect either��on and on like that.

Wexw also doesn�t have the insight that the woman I�m seeing (NG) is completely opposite of her. The contrast is quite striking. It makes me love and appreciate NG even more (and I tell her so frequently). My relationship also highlights just how unhappy I was. Wexw doesn�t want to believe any of this � the fantasy of it all leads to unrealistic expectations that I�m going to invite her over for boat painting parties. I wish her well, but I�m simply not interested in being friends with her.

opt

Bwaaaa haaaaa haaaaa haaaaaaa!!

I'll have to remember that line. It's funny how you slowly learn to put up with more and more awful stuff. I didn't crack until after 25 years of garbage. I'm glad you didn't wait that long.

I enjoyed some of my times with John too...not $50,000.00 worth of enjoyment however (that's what he took me for and we were only married for two years). No one is worth what he put me through! And now when I look back on the good memories, it's cast with a different perspective because I realize he was lying to me the whole time, didn't love me, hadn't made a real commitment, etc.

Hey guys, I may have to take this thread offline for at least some time. There is a discussion happening on another board that I am considering bringing to the attention of my exWW. If I do, there is the very real possibility that she will track me back to here. It would not be fair to NG to have the course of our relationship documented here be full knowledge of exww. I hope you all understand.

Thanks for all of your words thusfar-- NG and I continue to get along very well; she's a special woman and I feel very lucky to have met her.

...So, if this thread disappears in the next few days, that's where I went. I will still check in on your all's adventures!

opt

Take care, Opt, we'll be looking out for you...

I have to say I am very confused on why you would point your exWW here at this point in time. It's not your job to try to "enlighten" her anymore.

Yeh, I know Schtoop. It's about our D9 (OC). There is a very good discussion on the pregnancy board about when and how to inform the OC of their DNA parentage. It's pertinent and well-presented. Feel free to check it out - it's by writer1 if you're interested.

~Hope all's well for you and PG and the kids!


opt

K opt I hear ya on having to stay away from the board. I am glad you and NG are doing so well also.

I will be thinking of you as one of the personal recovery success storys here.


God Bless

Best of luck Opt. Hope it works out and you continue to pop your head back in from time to time.

Sorry folks, my thread is archived right now. I'll get it back and then ask the mods to merge this with it. For now I have this:

Hi all,
Sheepishly I return here after a prolonged absence. Nor have I offered my thoughts on other�s circumstances but I have checked in a couple times over the last months. The world has turned.

I�ve had a glorious 7 month relationship with Nature Girl. It has been a tremendous, heart-warming, life affirming experience. We hit it on all 6 cylinders and I never thought I�d find someone so compatible with me. We think the same way in so many ways. In Harley-speak, we met each other�s most important emotional needs.

Unfortunately, it gets complicated from there. I have two kids and 50% custody with them. Nature Girl has two kids as well; they are older (19 and 21) and I have made the tragic mistake of failing to recognize their potential impact on the relationship. My son has had a hard time warming up to NG, but has made progress in the last weeks with some talks and patience.

NG�s son seems to be following in his dead-beat alcoholic Father's footsteps. He was recently evicted and maved back with NG in her rented apartment, �just till the end of the month.� I am concerned this situation will repeat itself over the years in various forms.

The daughter has issues. I can�t get into them. However, on Thursday her insecurities landed too close to home when they directly affected my daughter, and indirectly my son. She accused my daughter of essentially �bullying� her, among other things, like dishonesty (to me), and manipulative behavior. [some babysitter, huh?] [for the record this is the first of ANY such report about D10. S15 was shocked and is also very upset about this whole thing]

Distressingly, NG went along with the whole thing, never giving my daughter a chance. She had her condemned without a single attempt to understand the entire situation or hearing another side of the story.

I have spent the last few days with my daughter. NG and me and the two daughters were all supposed to go away together, but NG�s D19 pulled out after the �bullying� incident�so my daughter and I made other plans � I wouldn�t subject her to a weekend of that kind of pressure without serious resolution and time to process it. I was able to get D10�s side of the story by patiently and unthreateningly questioning her. She did not deny any of the substance of the accusations, but says she was joking around and felt that NG�s D19 was going along with the game � it was a massive mis-understanding between the 2 girls.

On Friday I encouraged my D10 to apologize, which she did, in voicemail to NG�s D19. She was very sweet and sincere and frankly quite mature. She asked NG�s D19 to call her back. That call never came. A text saying �I appreciate the apology� (not ACCEPT), and would like to talk more in person.

Ummmmm, no. She said she was sorry. That�s enough. And that was the SECOND time my D10 had apologized � D19 did not accept it the first time either, stating �It�s fine, it�s fine� and not even looking at her (an observation D10 made herself�).


�..Sheesh, this is going on forever�.

So, meanwhile, I haven�t spoken to NG because I was with D10 and anyway, we had agreed not to talk about stuff like this over the phone. I texted on Saturday and said I had had a chance to sort some things out with D10 and would need to speak with her on Monday since I had the kids till Sunday (S15 is watching a movie as I write this � Limitless � it�s really good).

She texted back to ask what she did wrong and to let me know that my uncommunicative bahavior was � no way to treat someone you love.� Ironically the last time I got that line I was dating my now exWW. Over the years I realized it was the ultimate manipulative statement and has nothing to do with love. That dog will not bite me twice.

I texted back today (Sunday) saying I had taken the accusations against my daughter very seriously and that it was taking my whole attention. I asked her to be patient I would tell her what�s on my mind as soon as possible.

Tomorrow I think will have to tell NG I can�t see her anymore. We had been talking about spending the rest of our lives together. If it were just her and me, we might. However, I don�t believe our families can marry each other.

I�m sick over this. I�ve never broken up with someone (since HS). NG loved so deeply. I have been amazed by her capacity to engage emotionally. We had honesty like I had only read about. She�s going to be devastated.
However, as I read in another thread (Mel�s words), it would be cruel for me to continue with all these apprehensions and concerns.

***Thanks for reading, all you who are still here. I mostly wanted to organize my thoughts here, but would certainly welcome any of yours on the subject.

Opt

(((Opt)))

Dude, I think you're making a very wise decision.

IMO, the 19yo was utterly in the wrong even if your DD may have said the wrong thing. Your DD is a child and the 19yo is an adult.

Obviously NG's former marriage was really awful and her children have a lot of issues from their alcoholic father. I also suspect that NG has issues of her own that she hasn't worked through if she was so quick to assume that her own "adult" DD was right and your child was the one causing the problem.

I'm sorry. It must hurt a lot to have to end the relationship.

Opt,

I read your story a couple of times, and I am still not sure I completely understand all that transpired. Having said that, are you sure that you are not projecting your past issues with the ex onto NG? I don't see her text as manipulative, even if the choice of words may not have been ideal. I think she was simply asking you to tell her what was going on, after you went incommunicado.

I'd hate to see the whole relationship blow up over a misunderstanding (or even issue) between the kids, that seems like a shame.

AGG

I'm agreeing here with AGG.

What NG texted you was insensitive, but not that bad as a whole and certainly not indicative of a pattern of behavior. I agree that you were triggered, and that is on you and you shouldn't hold NG accountable for the extent of your hurt feelings.

I also think you need to give this situation with the kids a little time and perspective. Back off some, don't mix the families too much for a while, thens slowly reintroduce them. Bigger problems than the last episode will arise and you two will have to learn to work through them if you are going to be together.

I would certainly do that before throwing in the towel completely.

Hey, opt,

I probably should refrain from giving advice over here as I am not even divorced nor do I have any experience with dating after divorce but immediately one of Dr Harley's posts came to mind when I saw your update. I'll share it:



The rest of the post has to do with an affairage so I just pulled this part out. Here

So I guess what I am trying to say is: Since you were thinking of M with NG, have you discussed any MB princpiples with her such as POJA? Do you think you two could try to POJA this issue with the kids?

[As an aside, I will say that I am a little perplexed that a 19 yr old could feel bullied by a 10 year old child?? That is just weird... ]

I honestly feel that the one most manipulative person in your story was the D19, although, she may just need to grow up some more.

Opt, it's good to see you here.

I think you might be jumping the gun here a bit. If NG and you really do see eye to eye on DrH and MB type things, then I would say that you should have a frank and honest discussion about what is going on.

There are a few things that I see in your post, and I don't believe that this last incident is really the reason you want to end it, is there something else? Are you worried that this is going to be repeated throughout your R? Do you feel like it is you and your kids vs her and her kids?

I would try to work this out, as it may not be any easier to date ANYONE with children of their own, and then dating someone without children will pose other sets of problems.

Could it have been that you introduced the family to each other too soon, and there wasn't a real foundation that the two of you could stand on to fix issues like this?

Gosh you guys are great. Thank you so much for sharing your insights. It's still amazing to me how perceptive people can be when they truly care. IOW, I put down a lengthy somewhat porous post and you folks are able to see the salient points and offer reasonable suggestions all the way around. Overall, you helped me to get a full perspective prior to going into my talk with NG this evening.

* The update is that NG and I met after work to talk. While I don't welcome the drama of these situations (another reason to refrain from serious relationships until a substantial time has passed after the D is final....another rule I didn't really follow very well), I REALLY love the way NG handles the conversations that go along with them. She was very reasonable, understanding, humble, level-headed, optimistic, and conciliatory. Never did she antagonize, blame shift, get defensive, over-explain, raise her voice, cry (well, maybe a little), or do anything destructive.
* Ultimately, we decided to continue with some minor changes. We will deal with the kids' conflict in a non-threatening manner and NG actually asked for my help in teaching her D19 some social norms and more mature behaviors (we will POJA this - thanks Q!). NG admitted she was being overprotective and was sorry.
* NG had set some impressive limits with her son over the course of the weekend which I had been unaware of - difficult to do, but a step that endeared me to her for protecting herself emotionally; the boy is currently lost, unfortunately. She also assured me that he will not be allowed to wreak havoc on our relationship in the short or long term. I admitted he was beyond any help I could offer at this time.


@kirby - thanks for your input. There are definitely issues. What i've liked about NG all along is that she is willing to recognize her mistakes and is always trying to grow from them. Kinda like me.

@agg- always good to see you and hear your cogent remarks. You accurately identified that perhaps I was looking at NG's remark through the eyes of my past. Really, NG has no traits that would make her say something like that with the same intentions that exww had at the time. I was unfair to assume so.
I was re-evaluating the relationship (and it's potential) based on new information: the extent of D19's dysfunction and it's possible impact on my kids. So, I wouldn't allow one incident to destroy a viable relationship, but I was trying to define the future based on one incident.

@schtoop - I hope things are going well for you my good friend. You've been very dependable for me on these forums and I always look forward to your words. I will suggest we back off some on blending the families for now.

@Suzie- as I mentioned, the excerpt above was extremely relevant and useful. Thank you so much for offering it. Please don't hesitate to post here; you have been with me from the very beginning and I so value your input. NG has been very open to using MB principles, has read a couple Harley books. I will make an effort to talk about the POJA concept more directly. We tend to do it naturally when it's just us but I think we need to make a conscious effort in certain circumstances.

@Scot- thanks so much Scotty! I read your post after I got home from our talk. You hit it right - I was concerned that these situations were going to continue over and over in the long term. (remember, I married exww with certain expectations that never came to fruition. I'm intending to be very cautious here.) Anyway, I think NG truly desires for her D19 to develop in a healthy manner and she recognizes her retarded growth thus far (reasonably attributable to life circumstances, but still...). Your question is reasonable. I think we have a good foundation and lots of trust and admiration for each other. We may have rushed things with the kids. Ultimately there were some important lessons learned all around I think and while D10 was at risk for being steamrolled emotionally, with time and patience and teaching over the weekend (and her basic strong emotional nature) she has possibly gained the most.

thanks again everyone.
opt

That's fabulous! It sounded like her initial reaction was pretty defensive, but as long as you are both learning and growing y'all can work together on whatever issues come up.

Opt,
I'm sorry I missed getting on here sooner (I've had to cut back on computer time) but when I read you were going to break up with her, I felt it was a shame because I didn't feel her text was out of line, she was just letting you know she needed communication with you although it could have been stated in a more positive way rather than negative.

Blending families is extremely difficult but I don't see an answer other than working on it, unless you want to spend the rest of your life alone. The kids will grow up and leave home and the drama will lessen although the degree to which they interact with their parents after growing up varies greatly.

I just watch a Dr. Phil on this very issue and it was very good. His take is that parents need to discipline their own children and they need to agree on some ground rules and then both enforce those rules and present a united front. Some of the comments he made about the situations being dealt with were very good!

I wish you the best in your continuing relationship and all of the challenges that will come with it. It sounds like you have a great relationship. I wouldn't be as concerned about the statistics as I would making every effort to figure out the best way to make things work for everyone involved.

As far as her son goes...it could be that he is way beyond either of your help...prayer avails much but sometimes people have to hit rock bottom in order to realize they need change. Have the two of you considered going to Al-anon? It offers help and suggestions for family members of alcoholics. It helps you set boundaries and realize what you should and should not take on.

Hi, Opt. I just dropped back in for a bit.

I agree with most. Keep in mind, it's only be 7 months. For the children, it's been less than that, and adult children and be very resistent to a new person in the beginning. So, slow is key for the kids.

Also, keep in mind that because NG's children are adults, they are most likely never going to view your kids as siblings. They aren't growing up with them. I know that was really hard for my dad and his wife to accept.

And FWIW, I wouldn't allow NG's kids to babysit yours. Aside from the individual people involved, babysitting has a power structure that may not be conducive to blending families.

These challenges are good. See how NG handles them, see how well you resolve those. I swear I almost broke up with Mike 4 times before I married him. How we dealt with the big issues was what finally gave me the confidence to get remarried. I knew after two years that he was on the side of us, even when we were on opposite sides of an issue. I knew we could meet any challenge that came our way.

Kayce,
just wanted to thank you for your input. I will definitely consider your suggestions as usual. I like the Dr. Phil/POJA idea with the kids.
I don't get much chance to get back to these boards lately. Seems NG has got me into gardening this summer. NG and I are taking a sailing class together as well and every weekend seems to be something going on.
We'll keep plugging. It really is the blending families thing that is the challenge. Even her dogs have posed a problem (scheulding and then bringing them here - they stir up my 2 cats). If it were just me and her, we'd be fine...:)
well, thanks again.
Opt

Gg!! nice to see you! hope all is well.
Thanks for the point about having second thoughts with Mike -- that was inspiring b/c I know how great your relationship wound up being.
I will try to continue to take it slow with the kids. And no more babysitting - you make a great point and I wish I could have anticipated that.
opt

GG, your point about the babysitting was as good one.

Opt, It sounds like your life is full and going well, that's good!

Well, it seems as though we�ve gotten through some weird family blending issues. Time and limited interaction has helped. I learned a lot about NG�s daughter and son in the last couple months and I can see that they are quite affected by rough childhoods with a father who chose not to participate in their upbringing (who wouldn�t be affected by that?).
I�m going to have to be very patient and understanding with them.
Unfortunately my S15 is not so forgiving and is still upset with the way his sister was treated by NG�s daughter. As well he should be, but it�s hard for him to understand just how difficult it is for her, she is a very troubled young lady.
My strategy for now is just to keep either separation or supervision.

Meanwhile NG and I get along famously. We laugh a lot. She nurtures me and I love taking care of her. She�s a jewel. I wish I could be more, but I think she understands things have to move slowly as there are so many factors, not the least of which is it�s only been a year since my D was final (last week). I�m sure I still have barriers up. I trust her to protect me and our relationship, but sometimes I wonder if I�m really ready to give everything I have, or if I�m holding back for some reason, or am I just deficient in some way?

I don�t concern myself with ex, but that she still hangs with OM#2 is a source of irritation. He�s a loser and I wish he wasn�t around my kids at all. If she needs to be with a loser, at least pick one who didn�t have a hand in assisting the demise of my marriage � I think it�s insulting to the kids. I don�t know how some people do it when their exes marry and move in with OP�s and carry on like that; it must be so hard. My heart goes out to them so much.

I still love the way NG handles conflicts and problem solves. She encourages communication and talking. She is emotional but she doesn�t let it cloud her approach � not for too long anyway. And she apologizes! It�s so amazing to be with someone who admits when they see things differently than at first � with some introspection. We both seem to recognize that the relationship is far more important than little issues.

She�s still reading MB stuff and even was on the site a couple weeks ago. She gets a lot of the principles and we�ve been talking about POJA a lot lately. Her big thing is to sidestep the drama. How the negative emotions just make so many situations worse. In that, she has helped me see a whole new approach to life and it has been very compelling.

It�s been 9 months. I have been opposed to having her stay here when I have my kids � not wanting to send a message that overnights were okay for non-committed couples. However, one of the barriers to her getting to know my kids is that she isn�t here when I have them�
Catch 22?
If we get engaged, I would feel more comfortable with occasional overnights�
Am I a heathen?
Thoughts?

opt

Well, I think that you need to start having her over more when the kids are there, but not have her stay the night. If you're thinking of marrying NG, she and your kids need to start building a relationship. The only way S15 is going to get over his anger/hurt about how Little Sis was treated is to see that NG is a good person.

As far as overnights with the kids there...what have you taught them about sex outside of marriage? You need to practice whatever you've been preaching. I've always taught my kids that sex was for marriage, so when I start dating, that will be my standard.

Opt - I just have two questions. Has your WXW regretted anything yet? Does it seem like she realizes what she gave up in you?

Tough~

Kirby,
Thank you for your thoughts. I believe you are right and we have been trying to do more everyday activities with the kids and everybody all around at once. It is not easy. Basically it is just taking longer to get to that point than I expected. I suppose that is a good thing, because looking back I now feel I actually did rush some things with the kids when it comes to dating Nature Girl. My son wasn�t really ready for all of it, even though he thought he was, and said he was.
Fortunately, I think NG gets it, and she is patient. She does not put pressure on me, although we have talked about long term plans. I believe the kids (mostly S15) need more time to digest all this and develop trust of NG and that she is good for me.

In the meantime, we had another fantastic weekend together. Not my Saturday/Sunday with kids, so we took off for a rustic weekend in the woods and really enjoyed ourselves.

As for the overnights, Kirby I appreciate your words. I have had several discussions with my son about sex. Some of his friends started doing various sex acts at 14. He has steered away from them and has a couple of close friends he spends time with who share his ideals. I have stressed with him that sex is a huge responsibility and comes with many risks and considerations. I explained that 14-15 year olds simply aren�t ready to take on that role. So far that seems to have been sufficient. We spoke about sex again the other day and I will continue to just keep the lines of communication open. Personally, I can�t say I ever thought sex was only for marriage, so I can�t preach it.

opt

Hey Tough! Fortunately I can't really answer those questions. I don't honestly know what she regrets and what she doesn't. The last conversation we had about anything of that nature (our marriage) was maybe a couple weeks into the actual divorce, now over a year ago. Since then I have done a good job of keeping the conversations strictly related to the kids; she hasn't challenged me on that.
I don�t know what it seems like she feels either. I only know she seems to be the same stressed out drama girl I remember her as. Everything seems to be a big episode. Frankly I�m so happy to be away from it. NG is so opposite of that and has helped me develop a new even-keel approach to life�s issues. I wish I could deliver my kids from teh drama they get over there. But for now the best I can do is expose them to non-drama for 3.5 days per week.

Your question got me thinking about my regrets however. I can say that I still hate the idea of divorce, for my kids. I regret everyday that they can�t see their mother and father loving each other and treating each other with respect. Sometimes I think maybe there was more I could have done. Then I think about how resistant she was to change, and has proven to continue to be resistant to change. She has I suppose made some modifications, but she�s still with the same friends (including OM#2), watching t.v. almost constantly, and parenting with a �what about ME� attitude instead of looking for teachable moments or opportunities to bond. I also would still be dealing with the intimacy issues/painfully mismatched sex-drives, I�m certain of that. And it�s hard to be the parent you want to be when your wife is rejecting you; I know that from 15 years of experience. So, I wind up just regretting I ever married her in the first place. But then I would never have had two awesome kids who are truly a gift to humanity in my unbiased opinion. So I guess I just move on and try to learn from my mistakes and hope to imbue my kids with enough skills that they won�t make the same mistakes.
opt

So, it was my birthday yesterday and NG pulled out all the stops. She made me breakfast, gave me concert tickets, then later on came over and made dinner for me and the kids (my favorite - baked mac and cheese). Then more gifts (a couple smaller ones).

I was a little overwhelmed and uneasy actually. Why is that? Any insights? Is there an MB based explanation or do I just lack something?

My $LB is definitely overflowing as I love the Domestic Support. I just wonder why it's hard to embrace all the attention.


opt

Happy Birthday!! It sounds like you had a GREAT day.

Today is my birthday.

Here's my theory. NG's "love language" is acts of service and/or gifts. She did all those sweet things for you because that's one way she likes to show love. For you, either that's not your favorite way to receive love or you've been hurt/manipulated by someone in the past who did nice things then expected some kind of payback.

You've never posting anything about NG being manipulative, so IMO you need to relax and enjoy it.

That's kind of what I was thinking, only with a different slant...I was thinking it is maybe a trigger for you and that someone in your past did these things to manipulate you into loving them but they used you for their own purposes or it ended badly.

Hey, opt -- yesterday was MY birthday, too! We are twin brothers from different parents, it seems.

Happy birthday! It sounds like you had a great one!

Happy Birthday, opt & Fred!!

Wow, all the Birthdays! I think I remember that from last year, Fred -- HBD to you.
I hope you had a good one Kirb!
Thanks for checking in Susie!

I appreciate the insights. I suppose I've dated some manipulative women in the past; I can say that I don't remember being the object of such unselfishness.

Regardless, your encouragement is helpful. I will try to enjoy NG's generosity. She said today how much she liked doing things for me and making my day special.
One of her EN's is IC. I'm a good listener and so I have to remember there is "give" and "take" happening all the time.

I'll also re-read the love languages book. It's good.

opt

Happy Birthday, Fred!!

Thanks, Opt. It's been a good day.

Kirby, I'm sorry I didn't say it earlier ~ happy birthday!! My eyes went right over the pink font.

Happy B-day Opt and Fred !!!!!!!

Opt, the only thing I think I would add from the outside looking in is not to rush this, take your time, enjoy,

Take your time, the last thing you want is to in anyway rush into another marriage. And for sure you need to get through the infatuation phase of falling in love.

That said, I hope you enjoy to the fullest a wonderful relationship with NG, I hope she is the one for you..........

Happy b day
Don't get stuck.... I gotta say it must b nice to have someone who is happy making u happy......
My IC said to me today most men get married by 1 year post divorce but I am sure your not that guy.....
Good luck,....

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU ALL(Just like Scotty to come late to a party )

Why do YOU think you felt uncomfortable Opt?

Happy Birthday, both of you! 10/19 was my late husband and my wedding anniversary, kind of a difficult day for me now.
did you know it is also "Sweetest Day"?

Thanks for all the well-wishes! I love you all!
The best part of my Birthday was definitely sitting down to dinner with my two lovely children and my beautiful significant other. My son is finicky with food, but he loved the meal and that was a nice surprise.
D15 was so sweet to buy me a Yankee Candle with his own money he made babysitting; so cute. DD10 gave me some gift certificates she was saving; completely melted me. I said we�d get something together that we could both enjoy.




You know, Scotty, I�ve thought a lot about it, and obviously read the thoughtful responses here. I will not do the revisionist history thing. I could say it�s all my ex�s fault cause she was this and she was that (yes, she had a problem with shading the truth, but I tolerated it). I was at least 50% responsible for the feelings I felt and the position I was in for 15 years during that marriage. I could probably go back to other relationships as well although I never had many girlfriends.

I do believe the shortcomings of that relationship were a lack of trust and a lack of trust in sincerity. I don�t believe I ever could accept a gift in that relationship without feeling that I would be expected to reciprocate in some way (even if that wasn�t the case). Perhaps that was something I put on myself, but without openness and honesty, I was left to deal with it on my own.

The lack of sincerity and fear of getting too intimate with my wife-at-the-time probably stemmed from my infidelity from the years past and then keeping that to myself (I think there�s a subconscious fear that something will �slip� in the wrong moment when one is carrying around secrets).

So, for some of those reasons, I have to say I was never the object of such overwhelming generosity. Perhaps exWW was incapable of it; or perhaps I made it impossible for her to be that generous. Ultimately, when NG poured it on the other day, it was a humbling experience and I simply was not used to it. We discussed it again further on Saturday (there�s a whole lotta O&H in this relationhip).

In summary, I think my past relationships have contributed to my not being sure how to handle the attention. But I don�t want to say in a way that would indicate I was a victim in those relationships, that would not be fair; nor productive.

opt

[tj]
Thanks everyone, for the birthday wishes.
[/tj]

Interesting talk with the exWW today. It started because I had to set my boundaries about something. About a month ago I was picking up DD10 and exww said something a little demeaning about OM#2 (who still hangs around quite a bit) and then �but we love him.�

That bothered me a lot but I wasn�t sure how to address it. So today I called exww and assured her that I was not teaching my daughter the same thing. I said that as a Christian I teach the kids to �love� everyone but that some people are to be avoided in their lives and they do not have to �love� anyone in particular especially if that person is known to have low personal integrity or moral fiber. I took the opportunity to reiterate my point that I didn�t want my kids around him, but that I wouldn�t tell her what to do; and that I would support her dating, just not OM#2 and that it was offensive to me what she said and that the kids should be given latitude when it came to their feelings for someone who was obviously �there for her� when she chose to dismantle their family.

She was very accepting of all this and understanding. She assured me that she�s not pushing OM#2 on the kids but that he�s around most times as a default because she �doesn�t have anyone else.�

For a while I�ve been feeling a little sorry for her. I realize I�m supposed to be achieving �indifference,� but these feelings aren�t anything more than human empathy. She has a dying father, a crazy dysfunctional family, and now nobody to support her (a choice she made to �not be married anymore� and �do things on my own�). I have rarely seen a poster here say they felt sorry for their exWS, so I was just wondering how unusual that was.

At any rate, another thing that came out was her insistence that she could never follow just one philosophy on something (like MB or Catholicism for instance). I�ve sent her some posts from time to time, and she just won�t latch on to anything here, even for her own recovery. This reminded me of the unlikelihood that we could have recovered our marriage. She is not someone who is interested in following a �plan.� It�s just not in her fiber. I was hoping for my kids� sake by now she would have had some revelations and reached a new point in her journey toward self-actualization, but it doesn�t seem much progress has been made.

I read someone�s tag line � a quote from PEP. "Please, don't stay together for the kids, TRY MB RECOVERY for yourself and for the kids." I tried the first part for many years. I�m reassured today that the second part wasn�t an option. Sad.

opt

Opt,

but these feelings aren�t anything more than human empathy. .......I have rarely seen a poster here say they felt sorry for their exWS, so I was just wondering how unusual that was.

Something about what you wrote struck me, I am not divorced, but when my W cheated on me I think one of my rationalizations was that what she was going through at that time somehow justified what she did. I can remember feeling hollow and destroyed, but I found the strength to comfort HER, and I would have to agree that at that moment it was something more like empathy than love that motivated me.

God Bless
Gamma

I don't go around saying it much, but I'm sorry for my WXH.

Our children won't have anything to do with him, his family of origin is dysfunctional, he's being sued because of somebody else's auto accident, and we're being investigated by the IRS.

I believe he thought he was going to ride off into the sunset with the OW and they would have this beautiful life together. Instead, their relationship has been off and on since we separated.

I honestly think my WXH is a narcissist and he doesn't feel like he's "real" unless someone is watching and telling him how wonderful he is. He's alone a lot.

Of course I feel sorry for him. I wouldn't be human if I didn't. It's a LOT easier to feel sorry for him since he stopped filing frivolous motions on a monthly basis, though. That was getting really old and really expensive.

Is it wrong that all I keep thinking is "PLAN B PLAN B PLAN B."

Don't waste your breath talking to your WxW anymore. It's useless. Don't tell her that you don't lie OM2 around the kids, just focus on teaching your kids right from wrong.

I like to do it in a way that doesn't vilify the other person. Instead, you teach your children that it is wrong to date while married(not talking specifically about WxW, but they will piece it together). Tell them that it is wrong to date someone who is married(or even in a relationship). Let them figure out that OM is scum on their own.

Another thing you need to do is stop talking to your WxW about her problems. You are being there for her, as a friend, and you don't want to cross into that kind of thing. Let her fall. She needs it to become a better person and a better mother to you children.

I know it isn't about MR, that's not even the point, just get outta affairland.

I don't think it's wrong to feel sorry for your ex to some extent but keep in mind that it was their choices/actions that put them where they are and they are not your problem anymore and above all, do not let that empathy affect your decision making. In other words, don't give them pause to suck you back in. They will try.

My XH ruined me financially, and to make matters worse, I lost my job and have been looking for five months but still haven't landed anything. The other day he called, looking for someone to bail him out of a situation (financially). Are you kidding? Seriously! I wished him luck and got off the phone as quickly as possible. Wow! He must view me as a huge sucker! Well I'm not...not anymore, my eyes were opened as a result of what he did to me.

Agree 100%. After hearing from posters like Mulan and Fred, I intend to stay in Plan B indefinitely with my STBX. May be something you want to think about too, at least limiting contact as much as possible.

Don't get me wrong, I could see why you feel bad for your XW, especially since you seem like a really nice guy, but waywards are experts at making people feel sorry for them. I'd hate to see you being manipulated in that way after everything this woman has already put you through.

And like Scotty alluded to, you are putting yourself at risk for meeting each other's ENs for intimate conversation...so you might be playing with fire there.

Do you guys see this happening?

I have been reading many many threads on here. I am finding over and over again the ones who cut all communication with their wayward (even after divorce) causes the wayward to really miss them down the road.

I hope I am explaining this okay ... Let me try again.

It seems once the dust settles the wayward doesn't do well when the BS cuts off all contact. I am seeing 95% of the time the wayward returns down the road. I am not sure how big of a sample needs to be taken to get an accurate read, but more often than not the wayward really misses the BS (especially after many years of marriage).

Frank Pittman describes the history is a major linkage. Sometimes I wonder if it actually an Emotional need.

The two partners get into a pattern relationship that is defined for each other. The longer the marriage the more entrenched the patterns become. Everything from brushing your teeth, daily routines, the food that is bought and cooked, political views, I guess you can see how it basis itself off the domestic/Conversation/family ENs.

Let's just say it is difficult to replace the betrayed spouse. It is difficult to train a new spouse to have the same dynamics that were built in the first marriage. I say train because that is often what happens in the second marriage. The comfort from the first marriage is attempted to be duplicated.

I know for me I decided my WH is as good as dead to me if he goes through with this divorce. I refuse to have a friend who hurt my children and myself in such an abusive and cruel manner. It is truly sociapathic how bad a wayward can treat their family.

What do I take into my next marriage.

*GOD, Integrity, Character, and Morals

1) I love to give facials, foot rubs, and back rubs
2) I am a fabulous cook
3) I can make a six figure salary
4) I can bake the best cookies on the planet
5) I can raise many many kids by myself
6) I am thin (down to a size 6)
7) I enjoy sports
8) I am very outgoing
9) I eat dinner with my family each night
10) I have remained faithful, committed, devoted to marriage to the very end.

ETA: Which are the exact things that were in my marriage. My next husband will likely be simular to my current husband because the above it what I do best. I hope there is a man who likes a wife like that.

My point is - it is very difficult to change or morph anyone into what you expect them to be. The wayward can try all they want with the AP, but the key is they will always want most of what the BS brought to the marriage.

My WH gave up a darn good wife. He will miss me someday. Especially when he lays his eyes on my much thinner frame.

Personally, I feel our waywards don't deserve to talk to us. We, BS, are a great group of people because we are survivors. We stood for truth, character, and our kids.

God Bless
Tough

I think you're absolutely right. My WXH thought the OW would have all of my good qualities plus all of her good qualities. But in reality:

1. She's not a very good cook.
2. My dd told me that he got mad at her because he doesn't like how she uses her free time.
3. She's not very good with money despite being a banker (and he's really stingy).
4. She may be thinner than I am, but her boobs are tiny and everything is saggy. Even her tummy. (Runners don't wear much, so I've seen pictures)
5. She looks MUCH older than I do even though we're nearly the same age.
6. She has brown eyes, but he has a thing for blue eyes. I have gorgeous blue eyes.

It's weird when I think about it. Physical attractiveness is a huge deal for him. I guess the fact that she is several inches shorter than he is (he's short and I'm average height) and can run long distances with him made it work. When they run together he doesn't have to look at her.

I think it kills my WXH when he sees me because I've lost 25 pounds and look better than I have in years.

No, I don't see it. I hope if you want your cheating husband back that plan B works for you and he comes to his senses and comes home to you.

I too would like to see an actual sampling...to me plan B doesn't yield returned WS....it is suppose to help the BS heal faster though. I think most people who actually go Plan B don't have children and/or move on to divorce and a new life. In other words we don't typically see long term plan B'ers hanging around the boards.

You can see it talked about in the different forums. I shouldn't really link it to Plan B. What is discussed over the past ten years on the forum is when the BS cuts off contact, the WS after some time (usually after divorce) has come back to the BS to tell them they miss many things about them. They are unable to replicate it with the new spouse.

It follows Dr. H's recommendation for Plan B because he has talked extensively about this on his radio program. He has seen it time and time again, the WS cannot find another BS match. They begin to really miss what the BS brought to the marriage.

Maybe. But at that point it seems to be a day late and a dollar short.

Yes it usually is always too late. That is why I said to OPT to go dark because his WW needs to feel life without him.

It is a really sad process because as Dr. Harley has seen in his 40 years, plus the threads back up his work, the BS is usually always the best option. They are hard to replicate and the wayward spouse usually spends their life with regret.

I am a long time plan B-er.
I have three children with my WH.

When there is a will (and an awesome IM), there is a way.

My XH always assumed that I would be around waiting for him. Whenever he was in crisis (i.e., he was losing his job, he got arrested for DUI, SA, etc.), he wanted to reconcile but I didn't take him back as I knew he wasn't sincere.

Till the end when I finally told him it was 'too late', then he got very serious about reconciling, but it really was too late.

Yes, BS's think only of themselves and keep doing whatever pleases them as long as they think they can get away with their actions.

Why does she need to feel life without him? He isn't trying to get her back.

I wish I had time to respond to all these great posts. For now let me just say I totally appreciate your words and the discussion. Thank you, I have some things to think about and your perspectives are very valuable.

I have to reassure my buddy Scot (and Susie), I have been careful to limit the conversations with exww; and I will be even more cognizent of the content -- not to encroach on the territory of intimate communications. I appreciate what you're saying. I would say we're friendLY. This affords me much more access to my kids than would a plan B at this time; a fair trade-off in my view. I also dont feel I need plan B for my benefit; I've definitely moved on and am happy pursuing a healthy relationship (with much MB related discussions!)


I have some other thoughts but I gtg. Hope to bbs. Thanks again for your input my good friends.

opt

It will be OPT's choice. You never know where life will lead you. Just stating some options.

I was thinking about this a lot. My related post was illustrating how I have a desire for my exww to come to some point of discovery and emotional growth/maturity. I desire this muchly for the benefit of my kids. The getting back together train has left the station. The hurt of the adultery has subsided (over 2 years since dday). So I believe my motives are sound, if even slightly selfish.

So, I would agree that one way for exww to come to her own conclusions and personal growth would be to feel the full effects of her actions, squarely on the head. No argument there.

There are plusses and minuses, however. At this point I feel my less extreme methods are sufficient for ME, and my kids.

opt

I just read this again scotty and just wanted to say thanks. I really do understand. I totally see your logic. I am trying my best to limit contact as much as possible. There is not really conversation except exchanging of pleasantries and then the OCCASIONAL talk like the one I depicted above. I'll stay on boundary watch for sure.

Just realized this whole discussion should probably be on my Divorced thread.

Meanwhile things continue to go really well with Nature Girl. There have been a few things that have come up. She continues to work through things with me in a very calm, non-dramatic and cooperative manner. We talk about MB concepts often together. I'm getting to know her EN's well and I love meeting them (one is conversation and I'm a pretty avid listener; I love her voice which helps). We often ask each other "how's your lovebank?"

She has nary a lovebusting behavior as she is very very sweet and considerate and unselfish. I have enjoyed my new-found confidence in refraining from love-buster behaviors; it's been good for all my relationships including with my self. We've promised to let each other know about any behaviors we find unattractive or concerning, so as not to be inadvertently withdrawing love units.

I immensely enjoy being with her and think about her a lot when she's not with me; but it's not like the infatuation in the beginning of the relationship. More of a warm comfortable feeling.

Still working toward blending families and integrating. This just takes time and patience I believe. Fortunately NG and I are enjoying things as they are for now.

opt

You're welcome for the post. Just want to ensure that you are kept aware, that is all.

I am glad that things are going well between you and NG.

I wrote a letter to the radio show and just thought I would share Dr. Harley's response. My original email is below although the points he makes don't require reading the letter necessarily.
He didn't really answer all my questions but we were somewhat encouraged by that as it seems like he wasn't too alarmed by anything I wrote about what's going on.
I believe Joyce tried to call me a couple of times, but I was unable to answer and there was no message. I don't know if we would have much to offer the show, but it would certainly be nice to speak to her and express our appreciation.
~opt

Things have been continuing to go really well with NG. We have been doing more POJAing with respects to the kids (hers AND mine) and have really been patient with the relationships that are developing. My son is coming along. There was a heart-to-heart with him, me, and NG last week and he has been much more open. He seems to be much more trusting after hearing her speak and seeing her really listen to him, something she does very well. She tries to be as available as she can -- goes to all of his baseball games, even in my absense a couple of times.

I have been throwing around the concept of marriage with NG for a couple of months to get a feel for how the kids feel about this. D10 is quite positive. S16 kindof looks at is inevitable and is accepting. They have both expressed concerns for the kinds of changes that will take place as a result -- mostly the decreased amount of time they may have with just me.

I continue to be amazed at how well we communicate and how nice it is to have someone with me who has accepted the MB concepts. NG is attractive, funny, and so sweet and nice, I just never knew someone could be so kind-hearted. We share just about everything. She could even read this and I've offered any passwords.

She knows about OC/DD10. That was difficult. She has asked that I further limit my interactions with exWW; which I have. There was little interaction anyway. I was happy to give her the gift of refraining from something that made her uncomfortable (a luxury never afforded me by my exww).

I asked her Dad for her hand -- he's 80. It was very sweet. He said "yes". My folks were just out recently. They love her and have given their blessing.

The engagement will probably be 6 months. Some time after the 2 year anniversary of the D being final. I know the time-line seems quick when I look at it like that. I know there are lingering feelings of discontent with the fact that my marriage was blown up. I never wanted to be divorced and I still ache for my kids not having 2 parents who love each other. I still have some disgust, and maybe some resentment at the other men for burroughing their way into my marriage. But I believe that there's a way to turn something very bad into something very good.

I have a ring. I'm waiting for the right moment.

opt

Opt,

Love hearing the awesome update. Have you ever thought about Plan B your XWW? To have an IM and so you don't have to communicate at all? I'm sure NG would appreciate it tons.

How are things with her EX?

I'm sure you've heard Dr. Harley on blended families? I've learned so much on blended families and it's made our blended family so much better.

I bet you rose a LOT in the eyes of NG's dad by asking his permission. It's going to be a great thing in his golden years to have some young man ask something like that.

And yes...42 is young.

thanks KR
Much like me, she did a lot of things "wrong" the first time around. We were both married due to pregnancies (my wife lost our first after the wedding). No real engagement period. And she never got an engagement ring (or wedding ring for that matter I think). Her now-ex most certainly didn't go through any formalities.
So we are both looking forward to a more structured and controlled approach this time.

opt

opt

Brainy, I have though many times about Plan B but never pulled the trigger on it.

The big change in the last month or so is that I now sit and wait in the car for the kids to come out when I pick them up. It used to be I'd go in and be casual -- if exww was there it would be short small talk and if she wasn't around it was all well and good. Now, in response to NG's request I don't go in at all. And it's been really good. I can feel a certain pressure lifting because of the decrease in encounters; can't explain it at all because I never thought that there was any consistent discomfort.

Now it's been so long since the separation. Also, I'm so intent on not having ANY personal conversations (or sharing anything personal) that I'm not sure what I would say in a Plan B letter.

I am also not sure I could do a full-out Plan B with an intermediary. I honestly think it could affect my relationship with my kids and the ease with which exchages are happening. Having to shield my eyes in case exww happens to be walking the dog when I drop off the kids is really not the extreme I want to go to. Sometimes the kids forget their phones or the cahrge goes out so they wind up calling me on exww's phone. If I call back, sometimes she answers. Avoiding all that with a true Plan B would be, in my estimation, simply inconvenient.

My kids are aware that we are not friends, that there is no relationship there, and that we are simply parents of the same kids. Things are pretty low-key right now and I feel like I'm on the right track.

HOWEVER, I still would like to continue to limit my interactions with exww. Would you suggest a Plan B letter for that? And what would be the general content if I didn't want to get into anything personal? All I can think of is "Dear exww, seeing you and interacting with you brings up too much of the pain of the past and ...." See-- I'm already into the emotional aspect of this thing.
Do you see my conundrum? Can you offer any guidance?

opt

To your questions Brain, She has all but cut off communication with her ex. He still tries to get in contact with the kids, but she understands it has nothing to do with her anymore; they are big enough to deal with him themselves.
Also, yes I have spent much time analysing Dr. Harley's teachings on Blended Families. So has NG, and it's why I feel we're trying to be attentive to the MB principles[ we know the odds are not in our favor without strong tools.

I wouldn't do a full Plan B letter more of a I would like to only communicate through an IM about issues with kids.

I totally understand where NG is coming from. I plan B my XWH and my now WH still doesn't do a full Plan B with his X but the contact is less.

We have no dramma on my side but on my WH's side there will be drama when he starts getting sloppy with communication.

My XWH and I do parallel parenting and it's been awesome. I can't even think of the last time we've had any kind of contact. I don't even have a phone number for him. Granted my youngest is DD15 and so she has her own phone but we've been doing this for years. When he does come by the house to pick her up he stays out in the car and I stay in the house. I haven't seen him in probably over a year. I can't remember the last time.

I know with blended families the best medicine for everyone involved is the NC between parents. We've even had to deal with graduations and had no problems.

Congratulations, Opt! I wish you the best.

My kids' dad and I run into each other around town once every few months (small town) and don't have a problem with it but we didn't go through all the stuff you did either. His wife is horrid to me though and I'd love to not EVER have contact with her but our son is getting married in June so it's unavoidable, I avoid encounters as much as possible.

Opt,

Great to hear an update from you and congratulations!

You and I continue to live parallel lives. Things are going very well on my end with Preacher Girl and we have been ring shopping!

Now I just have to make the purchase and come up with a romantic way of presenting it to her. This should all happen in then next few weeks...Stay tuned.

Congrats schtoop

Schtooooooop!!!!
Congrats! I'm glad things are going well for you and PG and the kids. They must be getting big! I'd be curious to have the details, but I understand how busy things get and time on the boards gets limited.

On Sunday I popped the question. During a bike ride we were sitting on a rocky hill overlooking the ocean. The view was from where she grew up and I could see the town in which I now live (and the kids were there). Everything seemed right, so out came the ring.

I'm looking to enjoy the next phase of our relationship for a few months (at least 6, as we've discussed). So far it's been great. Everyone is so happy for us and some have even said they knew we would be married the first time they ever saw us together. I don't know if it's just the newness of it, but there is something different when I look at NG and see the person who has promised to spend the rest of her life with me. It's quite special. I can only imagine how it will be to have the actual marriage.

@BH and anyone new to this thread:
You folks really have no idea how uncanny Schtoop's and my stories have run along side one-another. Just about every milesone (good, bad, or ugly) he and I experienced since the beginning when we discovered our wives were cheating have been within a few weeks of each other. No planning or anything, just pure coincidence; it's bizarre. For the last 3 years we could have written a lot of each other's posts, and we've never even met.

schtoop I had chills for about 5 minutes when I heard you were getting ready to propose. good luck -- you'll do awesome!

opt

Congrats Opt! I am so happy for you.

Wow opt congratulation on the engagement.

What a parallel brotherhood for you and schtoop. Too bad it had to be like an affair that had to bring you together but non the less brothers. I remember following both of your stories.

Thanks Brainy and SW.
Hopefully things will continue to go well.
I'm reading B,R, &F's and seeing that Dr. H doesn't recommend certain things in dating relationships, or even during engagement (like full out POJAing). Sometimes I wonder if we are putting too much strain on our relationship too early.
But then I think about how this isn't the normal mid 20's/no kids type of getting ready to marry type of situation and feel that the true tests must be passed ahead of time.

I might write the show.

opt

Write the show. Let us know when he answers so we can hear.

I heard Dr. Harley say the best preparation for marriage is POJA. If you can do that successfully then you're on a good path.

Have you heard these?
Radio clip on engagement
Radio clip on engagement

Here is a copy of the letter I sent to MBRadio:

I'll post if I hear anything back.
opt

Thanks opt for sharing. I can't wait to hear what Dr. Harley has to say.

Oh, Brainy...I forgot to thank you for the links. They were very helpful.
I have a feeling he's just going to emphasize POJA, but who knows, maybe other things will come up in the course of discussion.

opt

You're very welcome.

I think so too, because I listen all the time and he always stresses POJA. It will be interesting his take on the "take MB too reverently too soon".

Hey Opt, get a couple damn kayaks and go with her... Guarantee you will enjoy it!

Hey opt.

Have you heard back from the Harleys yet?

Hey Schtoop! I went with her once last year and enjoyed it much. We plan to try and do it more this year infact maybe this weekend. I could use the UB workout too!

BH, I haven't got an email but someone called from that area code yesterday (my folks still live in MN as well), so it could have been them. I couldn't answer and they didn't leave a message. I know they're so busy. I'll report in if I get anything definitive.

opt

Hey opt.

Have you heard back from the Harleys?

Brain, yes in fact I spoke with Joyce a couple days ago. She is so nice. The night before I called back on a message I had received on my phone and Dr. Harley himself answered.

It's wild to talk to someone who, through their writing and then through an informal radio show, and through the interpretation of so many here have had such a profound affect on my life. Absolutely wild.

It's humbling to know there are such kind and generous people in the world. I seem to be surrounded in my life by greed and corruption at times. Debuachery and drinking, sex on t.v.; maybe the infidelity and waywardness I was experiencing for so many years blinded me or desensitized me to what goes on in this world, or maybe being away from it has brought out a certain cynisism. These guys have assuredly made enough money that they could be sitting out on a yaght somewhere in the Carribean, no problem. But they choose to hang around and give away the store with free books, free information, free advice on the radio, spending time that they could use elsewhere...it's very inspiring.

We are set up to have a call on Monday am. I'm going to try to conference NatureGirl in on the call, but I'm not great at technology, so it might not work.

Here's something interesting: the letter itself was written by me. On my own time, without input from NG. Makes it Independent Behavior, doesn't it? (In fact NG took issue with a couple points and we wound up having quite a discussion about it...she didn't feel the same way about how she abandon her kayaking habit, as an example). Brings up a point I've been wondering about with all this dating and being engaged: how much IB is normal or acceptable? We don't even live together, there are principles that seem to apply much more appropriately to married couples; is this one of them?

Also, I have this sense that many of the rough spots we have in our relationship at this point (and in the past), have been related to the fact that we aren't married and don't live with each other. So, then I think that marriage shouldn't be an "out" for any problems, in other words, "if it aint workin' now, marriage isn't going to fix it?" KWIM?
For instance getting 20 (or 15) hours of UA is sometimes a struggle because we have to drive to each other's houses (that's up to 2 hours total per week right there). DS is hard because were supporting our OWN households individually -- same with FS.
So does this mean that I'm wanting to get married for the wrong reasons?

I'd be interested to hear any thoughts, if anyone made it to the end of my coffeeinduced ramble.
Otherwise, listen to me make a fool of myself on Monday.

opt.

Thanks opt for letting us know. I will be listening and I'm sure you'll do fine.

The Harleys are so easy to talk to, that don't even realize you're on the show.

Wow, this is great, opt. I will be looking forward to hearing you and hopefully NG. BrainHurts is right, Dr. Harley and Joyce are easy to talk to on the air, especially if you have been reading and listening to them for years.

Agree with BH and markos, Dr Harley and Joyce are super nice and easy to talk to. Can't say enough good things about them...

OK, the only thing I can say is if you are like me and have "stage fright", you might want to have some notes down of questions or points you definitely would like to make as you might forget once you get "on air".

Cannot wait to hear as well because I admire your path, and admire you for standing on the right ground. I believe many of your issues will be resolved in marriage because the key factor will be getting your UA time in without struggle. I don't find any thing about you marrying for the wrong reason.

I will be curious to hear Dr. Harley and how to manage EN's while engaged and not living together.

I think your path is spectacular, and I pray it will bring you amazing blessings for your future.

Great Call ...

Thanks PI.
Having 2 on speaker phone definitely isn't good for radio -- I can see why that is an uncommon practice. But it was fine for this purpose I suppose.

It was quite an experience. It was really helpful as Dr. Harley got into some territory that I didn't expect him to, but it was certainly pertinent. I was a little embarassed that I hadn't been familiar with the Recreational Enjoyment Inventory.

The whole thing has been good because it prompted a lot of deep discussions between myself and NG, in preparing for the call. We went through some of the questions in "I Promise You" and now we will start filling out some of the quesionnaires.

Hopefully Brainy will pop in and post the link to our segment.

opt

Hi, opt; I usually hear the shows the next day, so I'm looking forward to hearing yours!

I just went and checked, and the link isn't available yet.

I was going to post it, but I don't know if you guys have noticed that there's something wrong with the archives?

A few of us have noticed and I've emailed asking. I'm going through withdrawal.

I was looking so forward to it opt. I will post it as soon as they fix them.

Also you probably have it already, but here it is.
Recreational Enjoyment Inventory

Ok here it is.
Radio clip of opt's call
Segment #2
Segment #3

I think they talked about them a bit more after they hung up, BrainHurts. YOu might post the next segment as well.

Ok thanks. I added it.

Loved the call. So what do you think about the blended family point that Dr. H brought up?

Thanks Brain. We had a great time and got a lot out of the call. It was really inspiring to talk to the Harleys. We want to be just like them when we grow up.

We are quite concerned about the pressures of blending families, so were very interested in the specific words offered for our particular situation. Interesting to hear about his anticipation that my D10 might be the source of some trouble in a couple years as step daughters have a tendency to "game the system." We'll definitely be keeping an eye out for that.

I have some more thoughts but I'll get to them some other time. I can say that we filled out the Recreational Activity Index together the next day. Fortunately it was almost uncanny how similar our numbers were. I haven't analyzed it in detail but it was an interesting and fun exercise.

opt

I have to say a blended family is tough, but if you put the work in that it can work. If we didn't put the M first it wouldn't work.

Did you see I posted the links to the call?

Yes I did brainy =-= thanks for that. We listened the next day, but now we can give it another go in the future. thanks again.

opt

You're welcome.

Things are all good here in Michigan.

I've spent some time looking through all the threads you started here on MB and see such a wonderful complete MB success story. Nice radio voice too. We don't get many of these that include d-day, Plan A, divorce, singlehood/waiting to date, dating, engagement....remarriage. I've got several MB friends that have divorced and are now happily remarried like Eph525, one4thegipper and Heartsore but they didn't stick around posting the WHOLE transition other than the occasional drive by post, email and/or phone call.

Congrats on the engagement and my wife and I wish you and NG all the success in the world.

Mr. Wondering

Mr. W,
I can't tell you how encouraging it is to hear that from you and your wife. I have read many posts from you and Mrs. W in various threads and it's clear that you have it down; I'm so happy I found someone who was interested in utilizing the principles here to try to build a happy, healthy marriage. NG is quite special for sure.

Maybe I'll try to look up a couple threads form those folks you mention, although time seems to be quite limited these days. It's all I can do to pop in here and offer a little guidance once in a while to new posters and then maybe update my thread from time to time.

You may have figured out from skimming my threads that I'm from Michigan. Good folks out there. NG is very much Michigan and not a whole lot east coast, another reason we get along so well. She loved Michigan when we visited and my family all adored her instantly. I've even recruited her as a Spartan (I'm sure we'll agree as to the best teams in Michigan wearing green...).

Well, thanks again for your encouragement. I expect we'll run into bumps along the way, but I'm confident we can employ MB to stay on track.

Opt

I too am confident you will 'stay on track'.
Because you are BOTH entering this new marriage mindfully and with reverence.
As far as I'm concerned, you are way ahead of the pack of about-to-be-married couples.
You will be amazed at how your love will grow (not diminish) over time. I am. I am amazed.

I am joyful over this news. Joyful.

Pep, I can't tell you what your confidence means to me. I read this several days ago and have been filled with more of my own confidence ever since. Encouragement from people like you and Mr. W is priceless because you are mentors to NG and I.

5 steps came in the mail from our phone call. we are excited to start filling it out. In the meantime, if I didn't mention it above, we did the Recreational Activity survey and were both quite pleased to know that we match up very well in many many categories.

Meanwhile I've encouraged her to post as I think she could help others, and also I think it helps to post as it keeps the knowledge fresh. That's a big reason why I hand around; it's nice to see how others implement some strategies, and offering guidance/assistance when possible helps me remain sharp in my understanding of the principles.

Well thanks again Pep.

opt

So is NG going to post?

I have encouraged her Brainy, but I don't know if she'll get around to it. Bless her heart though. I worked sunday am and got home to find she had done all sorts of work in my yard including laying down a bunch of new sod and replanting some flowers. Since DS is a big EN of mine, my LB is overflowing!

We had a super weekend. Sunday we went kayaking in the afternoon (that has been a point of discussion here) and I loved it. Now shopping for my own kayak. we had nice UA out in the water there are few distractions except the pending threat of a rogue wave, but it was really great.

I filled out my section of EN in the 5 steps book that the Harleys sent us. Maybe that's the next MB step for NG.

opt

Wow.

Well tell her we'd more than welcome her to the family.

just reporting in folks.
wanted to reiterate taht these concepts really do work.
case in point:
Had a strange week with NG last week -- communication was a little "off" and I could sense something, she could sense something. We weren't together at the end of the week because I have my kids and she was doing other stuff, but phone conversations were short and a bit strained.

Finally we talked on Saturday, and decided to stick with the honesty principle - I had to let it fly what was on my mind and it was pretty touchy although I don't want to get into details. Of course NG was a little upset and maybe a little hurt, but it was better having it out on the table and the situation was rectified the next day, much to my satisfaction and with commensurate, massive increase in love units.

She was also honest with me too, that she hasn't been feeling our UA has been that effective. Fortunately she had some time to think about what was missing and it was......(you guessed it) not enough IC.
So we focused a lot of time on just that, I tried to open up more about just random things (which tended to lead to more in depth conversations). And now things are back to the right track.

It's amazing what can happen with a good plan in place. Honesty (radical to some extent), and identifying and meeting EN's. strivign for plenty of UA.

Overall things have been good since I was here last. We went kayaking again and I am hunting for one now. We have some plans to camp next weekend and when NG gets together with the kids it's all smooth with lots of good energy.

Slow but sure.

opt

Opt,
You are a role model and inspiration to us all! I feel like I have footsteps to follow if I ever find anyone I want to date.

The best thing about life after mediocrity is that your experienced will teach you how to make the right choices.

Thanks opt for sharing your voyage. Love reading it.

Hello Optimism. I have read posts by you here and there, and just found this one. I am glad I did. I haven't read the whole thing yet, but will. It is nice to read it from your perspective.

I am just going to be blunt here. How did the Church help you through all of this, your divorce? There is not a lot of support for these types of issues here in my diocese anyway. I am struggling with all this. I want to do the right things for my children, myself and my salvation. I hope this isn't too heavy of a question. I look forward to any advice you can give me.

On another note, I read you are a Spartan fan, so that must mean you live or are from South Central MI. I lived there for almost 5 years. My oldest child was baptized in St. Thomas Aquinas Church there in East Lansing. People there were so nice. I don't miss the cold and the snow tho!!!

Thank you for reading this.

Thanks you guys! The rewards of trying to stay on a course have been amazing.
Go Green LB3!

AGG, you know I have the utmost respect for your posts. I have read this sentiment a couple of times from you and I wanted to get some clarification if I could. The philosophy kinda freaks me out because I've certainly had my share of consternation in my relationship with NG (and her with me). What I've leaned on is how we have managed to resolve the natural conflicts that come from 2 people trying to join up in a crazy world. There has been work involved, for sure; fun work, but work.

Where am I going wrong? Am I taking you too literally?
Perhaps you could go back to when you were dating your DW. There must have been things that gave you pause.

thanks for any input.

opt

optimism, I think you got so "green" that you forgot the middle part of my post, maybe?????? If this isn't something you feel comfortable discussing, I understand.

Lol. Not at all littlebit. Just real busy. I'll get to my thoughts on your question asap i promise.

Hey opt,

Thanks for the questions, they are good ones. I thikn it comes down to what the definition of "work" is. Obviously any relationship needs a certain amount of work to fine tune it, since no two people can be completely alike in every way (that would be boring anyway). And of course whenever you add the complexity of second marriages and kids from first marriages, that just makes it things more difficult. So, if we define "work" as an effort to improve yourself, improve the relationship, and learn about your partner to make you the best partner for her, then I am all for it. I am even all for "work" in the sense of trying to resolve small issues that you may have which are normal for two people coming together into a relationship. I believe that everything you had to deal with is in that realm.

What I refer to as "work" that should not be attempted in a dating relationship is work that is intended to overcome a basic incompatibility. So if you have two people who are totally incompatible in some ways, and start discovering that incompatibility as the butterflies wear off, I would suggest that they move on to find someone they are compatible with. You can't overcome serious incompatibility with work or therapy - you can learn to accept it and live with it, but you will never be compatible, and IMO will be selling the relationship short. That is the whole point of dating - find someone that you are compatible with.

From personal experience, I dated different women that I liked in many ways, but in each case there was something that was beyond a small issue that could be worked - it was a matter of not seeing important things the same way, or an issue that was so big that I had no intention of dealing with it (I am sure I shared my examples here before, but things like mental illness, dishonesty, brother who is child molester, poor boundaries with ex-lovers, etc, were dealbreakers for me). In contrast, when I met my now-wife, everything just clicked. I don't mean just the Infatuation-click, I mean even after two years of dating (and now 3 years of marriage), we just get each other and work well as a team. We never had to "work" on any issue of significance. It does not mean that neither of us had to make some adjustments, of course we did - but it was never work, it was to improve our relationship even more. Not to salvage a disaster. I see too many people on here trying to save a disaster relationship, and that is what I am always preaching against. There are way too many good people out there to waste time with Mr/s Wrongs...

But again, based on what I read about you and Ms. NG, I think you guys are in good shape, and I am very happy for you!

AGG

What does basic incompatibiity mean anyway? What would be examples of this? As the butterflies and newness wear off, realities will present themselves. I would think that you would know this person well enough to know whether or not they met the most basic compatibilities or not before you married them unless there was some dishonesty. ???? Maybe I am not seeing something here.

I believe that there would have to have been some pretending going on for "basic incompatibilities" to present themselves when the butterflies wear off.

Lovebusters can also make someone close down and not able to continue to meet certain needs that fell into the compatible category at first.

I believe that love, respect, caring for the other person, that person loving, respecting and caring for you, can overcome almost any "incompatible" issue.

I had a thought. I guess you might not know that the person you married is incapable of true honesty, true intimacy and b/c of this, certain issues present themselves. Then you may realize that you are on different pages. Then it would become a bigger problem when that person can't/won't work on those issues and keep on making the destructive choices. That would be an example of basic incompatibility. I couldn't ever get my H to want to change/not do these things and work on his issues so they wouldn't cause destruction. This falls under the category of dishonesty to me. So, you didn't know you weren't equally yoked, didn't know that there would be such incompatibility b/c you can't be in a relationship with someone doing destructive things, so, that means leave them?

Sorry, I can't agree with this. I mean, sure, love, respect, etc, can help you decide to accept the incompatibility, but the incompatibility will still be there.

You asked "what does basic incompatibility mean anyway?", and to that I suggest the best book I read on the subject, Will Our Love Last?. This book discusses the three basic dimensions of compatibility (and lack thereof), Sexual, Wavelength, and Practical, and makes the best argument I've seen for why love will not overcome significant incompatibilities in these areas. Sure, you can decide to love someone with whom you have a terrible sex life, who does not see eye to eye with you on many fronts, and who sleeps till noon while you are up at 6am, but the question is, Why? Why not find someone with whom you would not have to live with these incompatibilities?

AGG

You have a good point. But, don't most people KNOW these things BEFORE they get married? My H and I discussed almost everything. I believed we were on the same page about most everything. I see now where he was not being forthcoming about his inability to connect, to trust to truly be intimate. His words and actions seemed to match on so many levels. But, then it all began to unravel after we married. He didn't believe in cheating. He didn't believe in lying. He thought it was wrong to XXXXX. I didn't change my ideals, he changed his.

I can see not wanting to continue a dating relationship with a person who differs on these subjects, as that is why we date - to find a compatible mate. I think you actually referred in a previous post about not continuing to date this person, but, what if you are married to them and they get worse and worse to where you are not compatible?

I just wanted to add this to the discussion.
Following POJA when you're very incompatible

BrainHurts, my take on that article was that you have to care enough about your spouse to WANT to sacrifice for the greater good. You can negotiate for the marriage you want. When you feel that you have pretty much covered the important things, and are on the same page, it shouldn't be big stuff that makes you incompatible after you marry. At that point, it becomes thoughtless and selfish actions that are choices!!! I am not a big sports fan, but my H is. That is something he throws in my face quite often as one reason we are incompatible. Well, I still enjoyed going to games and sharing that with you. The only reason I stopped going was b/c all he did was call me on the carpet for not controlling our child better. Got mad that I didn't prevent him from kicking the back of the seat 2 inches in front of us. He was 3 and not a sports fan. After a while, I didn't want to subject myself to that when he ignored me the whole time and criticized me. I wanted him to do those things that gave him joy. I supported it! I wanted to share in it. He had other ideas I guess.

I believe there are incompatibilities. Some can't be overcome, but most, especially the small things, can be overcome. You just have to want to.

Littlebit,

Sacrifice is not MB.

The Policy of Joint Agreement

Well, on this board I am limiting my "don't waste your time with an incompatible person" to dating relationships. Married relationships are a whole separate category, since you have now made the "for better or for worse" commitment, which I believe should be honored in all cases short of abuse, infidelity, etc, especially if there are children involved. Not just an "I'm not happy" argument, like my ex chose .

You are right, people do change after marriage, and if they become incompatible (or find out that their partner was being a chameleon during dating), then they are sort of stuck with it. In that case, I would suggest using Harley methods and all other tools in the toolbox to get the relationship to work - but again, that is for marriage, not for dating, IMO.

AGG

\
Thanks AGG, that was clarification I was looking for. We both are very aware of the odds expecially with combining families. We are very intent on doing things correctly because we want it to work and we really enjoy yeach other. The time and effort put into coordinating schedules, talking about POJA, refining our UA, negotiating minor disagreements, and identifying EN's, not to mention contacting the Harleys and all that...I don't see it as the kind of work that would indicate we're not compatible. In fact in a strange way I think we both like to concentrate and communicate about the inner workings of our relationship.

I did read the book you mention (perhaps at your suggestion some time ago). We hit it all counts, which gave me more confidence.

So, thanks again for your time and your encouragement and your reassurance.

opt

Hi LittleBit. As to your question, I might not have much to offer but I will try. Keep in mind that I don�t know much about your situation, but later I might have time to get on your thread and check it out.

I can say that my Pastor was very...interested (and understanding) in my situation from the beginning. Not necessarily supportive. I went to see the Pastor one day about 10 years ago because I was not happy in my marriage. I don't remember much except leaving thinking that it was hopeless that I was ever going to have a substantial sex life in my marriage. I was distraught. It was about the time I started going wayward for myself.

FF to my WW's infidelity. We went and talked to the same pastor together. He again was understanding but didn't have much to offer in the way of counseling, but hey that's really not their job. It was just nice to have someone to talk to. [I can tell you that I don't believe the Catholic Church has much better understanding of infidelity than anyone else, besides Dr. Harley].

I continued to talk to the priest periodically throughout the divorce process. My pastor understood that I was doing everything I could to save the marriage, but could also see that I was the only one doing any heavy lifting.

Ultimately it came to divorce. Again my pastor was understanding. He was also quite pleased that I (WE) had made the critical error in judgment to NOT get married in the church 15 years prior [this had always been a real issue for my Catholic Mother, for obvious reasons, but what a blessing it turned out to be].

I was not saddled with the burden of going through an annulment because the church never recognized my marriage in the first place. Not that I ever really went to church while I was married; I had kind of fallen away from the church.

HOWEVER. NG did not have quite the lapse in judgment that I did. Under great pressure from her husband's family (Irish Catholic), NG was convinced to have her civil marriage blessed in the church a few months after the official union. SO...she will have to go through the annulment process before we can be married in the church. She is working hard on that now, in hopes of having the documentation in in a few weeks. I do not envy her one bit, only wish I could help , but I really cant. The Church wants people to suffer through that process for obvious reasons.

Soooooo�..I just read the first page of your thread LB3. It appears that you at least initially got some very good counsel there form pep and Mim. I didn�t� read on, too many triggers on that board.

Not sure where your at now, since you appear to only have been on MB for a month or so and are just learning how to fight adultery, implement Plan A and Plan B and try to restore romance to your marriage. You wouldn�t have posed the question to me unless you were considering the Divorce route.

Although I personally feel quite convinced of the biblical justification for divorce in the context of adultery; not to mention that I believe infidelity is a form of horrendous psychological abuse, I don�t now that you will find this same sentiment in every church with every priest/pastor. Let�s face it: it�s a big church. Yes there are basic tenets but also room for interpretation.

You have 3 kids. I could see a church rep not supporting divorce/annulment. However, it seems to me, from my limited experience, that you can always file the paperwork. There is simply no guarantee that it will go through in your favor. It�s like a divorce settlement �some judges accept certain things and some don�t.

From your first post, it looks to me like you would consider yourself someone who married under some duress and then tried to make it work for a whole bunch of years. The annulment process requires that you feel you made an ill-informed decision from the outset of the marriage. That�s the key.

Hope that helps a little bit.

opt