Welcome to Marriage Builders, ukfansx5. Why don't you start your own thread and let us know how we can help you?

I dont do well with conflict with her. SHe puts her "lawyer: hat on and I never get my message across. Anyway, I was out of town for work, I sent her an email explaining my feelings and wow. i felt better.

We went to 6 sessions with a marriage counselr and what I differnce. She needed to her from a thrid party that WE should be a priority. The counselor recommended that we read 5 Love languages (?). Amazing, never thought it would be so easy.

Went from no imitancy (holding hands, hugs, kisses) to almost dating again. It has been wonderful. So, between this group and counselor and book. Life is good.

Good luck to you.

I'm glad to hear that worked for you. You may run into some trouble down the road with Love Languages. Let us know if we can help you!

Perhaps she feels something you are saying is demanding or disrespectful. If you can get her involved in filling out the love busters questionairre, and letting you know each week instances where you've been demanding or disrespectful, that might give you valuable information. Then she could tell you in a safe way, after the fact.

Also, there's a good chance she's simply in withdrawal, perhaps even depressed, and lacks the creativity/energy/motivation to keep brainstorming. Don't demand that she offer suggestions. Just accept what she has to offer, and keep brainstorming, yourself. Carry around pencil and paper and write down ideas when they come to you.

(from my other topic)

Thanks ML,

I've read "When to Call it Quits." and given it a lot of thought. I am fairly new to MB and I don't believe that I have yet done all that I can do to be the best husband I can be. I am trying to follow the advice to "fix the relationship first".

W and I exchanged EN questionnaires and we were able to agree upon plans to meet other (especially w's) EN. We are deadlocked discussing SF.

Perhaps it would be best to table this issue until we have a few weeks (months? years?) into working the MB plan. But it is part of the EN questionnaire and it would be dishonest of me to deny that I am unhappy and dissatisfied.

I don't know how to offer brainstorming ideas on this topic. It isn't as though I could suggest that playing checkers might meet this need for me. I have suggested that we try some intimate touching sessions that do not include intercourse as a way to learn to please each other and become more relaxed with SF. W neither rejected nor encouraged the idea.

I once wrote a list of some alternative SF activities that I thought might be pleasing and gave it to W. The next day I saw the list on the floor with a shoe print on it. When W asks me what I would like her to do, I am afraid to answer, I've experienced so much rejection. I told w how I felt when I saw the list on the floor and she surprised me by saying "I still have the list." At first I felt encouraged that she had kept the letter, but then I thought, She's had that list a long time and not done anything with the information.

W hasn't offered any ideas about ways that she thinks she might like to try. She tells me that she feels guilty and inadequate for not meeting my EN. That discourages me from trying to discuss the topic.

Right now I am thinking that perhaps I need to give the topic of SF a rest for a few weeks or months. Give my efforts to meet her EN and eliminate LB some time to do some good.

CIGB,

Note all the times you are afraid to take action.

Are you afraid your wife will be mad? or sad? leave? Might help to specifically think of how to deal with the possible reactions.

I think the MB point of view would be accept the fear and talk about it anyhow. Being afraid has led you to a very unsatisfactory situation. Just make sure that when you express how you are feeling (radical honesty) that you do it lovingly, with no lovebusters.

I think it is important for your wife to know you are unsatisfied with SF situation, because if she is able to deny this to herself, she will go to that scheduled doctor's appointment in December, and not even mention the problem (because she will not see it as a problem). BTW, the reason I know this is that I am a health professional dealing with women's issues, and frequently have postmenopausal women tell me there is no more intimacy in their relationship, but that both partners are OK with that.

If your wife does not know the extent of your unhappiness, she could say exactly that. And it is very possible, sometimes requiring a bit of medical help, for women to be comfortable with intercourse after menopause. Of course, you don't want to force the issue of intercourse before the medical issues are dealt with; you don't want anything to be an unpleasant experience.

Have you thought of calling for coaching with Steve or Jennifer? Maybe that can help you get past the fear of being radically honest with your wife.

I would table it for maybe 15 minutes, but no more. It should stay on the front burner until it is resolved. Your marriage will never get better by ignoring the problems. And if you continue to ignore this, your love for your wife will just continue to erode until there is nothing left.

Why would you want to do that?

Emily gave you great advice. Start being honest about your feelings. It is unspoken issues like this that causes a lack of intimacy. Don't sacrifice your marriage on the alter of conflict avoidance. Stand up and fight for it..

Agree very much with getting counseling from the Harleys. I think Dr Jennifer Chalmers would be great for your wife. She can teach you to learn how to be radically honest too.

Thank you Emily and Melody,

I have been honest with W about my discontent. We exchanged EN questionnaires and I indicated that SF is my #1 EN and that I am profoundly unhappy the way things are. The question is how persistent I need to be in keeping the issue in focus. W certainly avoids giving the topic much attention.

I brought up that I wanted W to join me in counseling. The result of POJA negotiation is that we have two appointments for counseling in person locally. I used MB principles in an email to three candidate counselors and selected the one most supportive of the goals of meeting each others EN and eliminating behaviors that make each other unhappy.

I have spoken to W's doctor (who is also my primary care doctor). Explained that I am concerned W is depressed. Informed him about W's pain during intercourse and that she hasn't made love (successfully) with me in two years and I an unhappy. He took notes.

I am not afraid W will leave me (perhaps emotionally she already has).

W might get angry, but I think I can handle that as long as I believe myself that I have acted ethically, respectfully and with compassion.

I am afraid that pushing too hard will further her alienation and detachment.

I am afraid that complaining too frequently will aggravate her aversion.

I am also afraid that not complaining enough permits denial and avoidance behaviors.

I can put aside my fears. What I can't put aside is this: I don't know that persisting in raising the issue of my needs is compatible with restoring our emotional connection. As you have pointed out more than once Melody, I can't expect W to be willing or enthusiastic about SF until she feels emotionally connected and confidant she will have a pleasurable experience.

When ask about "tabling the issue of SF for now", it is with those two objectives in mind. The (extensive) effort I am making to meet W's EN will hopefully help restore our emotional bond but may need some time to rebuild my love bank balance. And W may need medical help or reassurance in order to be able to expect a pleasurable experience.

I know first hand that having my EN unmet is harmful to my ability to feel an emotional bond. In fact, I feel pretty messed up. It does make me want to behave selfishly in hopes of meeting my needs. That's all the more reason for me to want to choose a course of action that is likely to meet those needs.

I am seeing gradual signs of W coming around. At our first dance class lesson this week, W's face was the happiest I have seen it in months. W still isn't sleeping in our bed, but she is stopping in for a few minutes of cuddle time here and there. She procrastinated making a doctor appointment for a month, but eventually made the appointment for 60 days out. (I got my appointment with the same doctor in 3 days when I called to say I needed help with depression.)

I don't know if I'm seeing W making real adjustments at a very gradual pace, or if I'm seeing very effective passive aggression.

I'm thinking plan A through at least December, since W won't receive medical advice until then anyway. Doesn't plan A call for a temporary willingness to cope with having ones own EN unmet?

It does sound like you are making a good effort at plan A.

Sounds like you are pretty clear that she knows that SF is an issue.

I think you are right that you don't want to complain daily, but be sure she remains aware. What would you think about starting a Sunday afternoon tradition of planning your UA time for the week? You could discuss time for SF and what specific activities she might enjoy. And the other UA time will be building your emotional connection.

Good work talking to your doc!

If this is a traditional counselor you aren't going to avail much. When is your appointment? And what is his/her plan to restore the love in your marriage? Does he counsel you together or apart?

Are you doing the things necessary to create an emotional bond? It will not happen by accident. It will happen by plan and design. What it takes is 20+ hours per week of UA meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs. How does she feel about this? Does she understand and agree to the plan?

My concern is that you are doing alot of work that will avail you nothing if there is no plan for UA time. This program does not work with this step.

Are you also aware that traditional marriage counseling has an 84% failure rate? They don't have the slightest idea how to restore the romantic love in a marriage and don't even believe it is possible. Does the counselor you chose a) believe it can be restored, b) have a plan to do that and c) equipped to motivate a reluctant spouse? It is very risky to go to a traditional marriage counselor when you have a reluctant spouse and you only have ONE SHOT.

Thanks for your encouragement Emily and Melody,

After breakfast, W spent 2 hours with me cuddling and SF. (note to Markos. Yes I was appreciative). Good for W. Not quite satisfying for me physically. Very good for me emotionally.

W is "on board" with the goal of 15-20 hours/week of UA time. We still have some work to do to get there. As "empty-nesters" we currently spend 30-35 hours/week alone together. Our challenge is to upgrade the quality of the "undivided" and the "attention".

We've taken some good steps. Enrolled in dance class. Shared some recreational road trips. Upped the frequency of eating out, dog walks together, going to movies.

On Friday I told W that I'd like to serve the lemon chicken supper I plan to cook for Sunday on the dining table. Yesterday W cleared the pile of her work stuff from the table to make it available. With the dining table clear, we'll be able to make some of our meal times UA (we've been eating in front of TV). That will add 2 or more hours of UA per week. I introduced the idea of eating at the dining table 3 weeks ago. It can take a while to put the pieces together.

My next UA goal is to get some affection time every or most bedtimes. W is still sleeping in guest bed and that removes many opportunities to meet EN for affection and SF. I've brainstormed the following actions I might take.
a) Buy the new mattress W has been wanting. We put this off last month due to financial stress of DD auto accident. I sleep on new mattress every night. W sleeps with me if she wants to be on new mattress.
b) I follow W to whichever bed she goes to. Snuggle in even if the bed is too small (guest bed is a twin).
c) Bring issue up with our joint counselor.
d) Thoughtfully request that W go to our bed with me at bedtime. If she is restless after I go to sleep, or agree to "lights out", she can then move to other bed and I won't complain.

Did the best I could selecting a counselor that will be supportive of MB principles. Had to respect W's input in selecting a resource. We go together in 1 week. Will learn more at initial session.

Is it a resource for your marriage, though? That is my point. Most marriage counselors are destructive to marriages so respecting her decision might not be in the best interest of your marriage. What is the marriage counselors TRACK RECORD in restoring romantic love to the marriage? Does he/she even believe that is possible? MOST DO NOT. What is his/her OWN marital status? See, this is critical information because it is not a virtue to just go to marriage counseling if it is detrimental to your marriage.

If it is detrimental to your marriage, why would you agree to it?

The strategy of traditional marriage counselors is to get you to solve your own problems by using talk therapy because it is believed that the "answer is within you." Do you believe that all answers are "within you?" See, I do not believe that. Rather, I believe my best thinking screwed up my marriages. If I knew how to save a marriage, I wouldn't be here.

The harm in using marriage counselors is they often validate marriage wrecking strategies and beliefs. When that happens, it is much harder to overcome that teaching. For example, many MC's believe men are "controlling." What if the counselor decides you are "controlling" because you want to have an integrated, romantic relationship with your wife? What if she believes it is "healthy" to have independent lifestyles? What if she tells you and your wife that romantic love is unrealistic and impossible? <-----most MCs do believe this. How will you overcome the damage of such beliefs once they are told to your already reluctant wife?

Do you see what I mean? You have one shot to get her to engage your marriage and you are spending it on a profession with an 84% failure rate.

Honestly, you would be better off getting pedicures and just using the Marriage Builders books AT HOME. You can buy HNHN, Lovebusters and Five Steps to Romantic Love USED at amazon.com and listen to the free radio show and come out much better than going to marriage counseling.

Study after study shows how ineffective traditional marriage counseling really is. That is why Dr Harley set up this forum, so people could get free help for their own marriages that was truly effective. He even gives out free advice on his daily radio show. He discusses traditional marriage counseling here: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2313031#Post2313031

and here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb.cfm/3/20

Please don't just trust your marriage to any counselor. You are taking a huge chance on a profession that sports an 84% failure rate.

My DH and I always go to bed together. One of us doesn't always stay in bed after the other one is asleep, though.

He usually sleeps 8 - 10 hours a night and I am happy with 3 - 5.

Right now he's still traveling, so we are only together three nights a week. When he's home on my work nights he'll stay up until I'm ready for bed, and just sleep in after I get up for work. When he's home and we're both working I'll lay down with him until he's asleep and then get back up after he's asleep and work. We do POJA that - at first he would wake up, now he doesn't wake up when I get up nor when I come back to bed at my usual (late) 2 am bedtime.

Melody,
I'll bear your concerns in mind. Based upon my phone and email contact I don't see signs of those issues with this counsellor. But neither of us has met her. I'm am strong enough to change course if the initial interview does not go well I will ask the questions. You suggest such as belief in romantic love.

W and I discussed sleeping arrangements. We enthusiastically agreed
A new larger bed
B redecorate larger room for master bedroom
C dark lined drapes
D new ceiling fan
E in meantime w and I will go to bed together. She can move during the night if she wants
The purpose is to make our bedroom attractive and comfortable for w

Good deal! And I would ask her for her PLAN for restore the romantic love. The KEY to this is 20+ hours of UA time. If that doesn't happen, you won't get there.


Sounds great!

Melody,

I do want you to know that I give careful thought to what you say and appreciate that you are offering your help. Thank you.

I sent the following email to the counselor. (names and salutations omitted).

"I have two questions about your philosophy. Will you help us develop a plan for restoring and maintaining romantic love? What role does spending time giving each other undivided attention have is such a plan?"

W and I can and will work on the UA time whether that is part of therapist plan or not.

I find it is a little like running uphill in sand. Every step I take, I slip a little, but I am making some headway. Example: When I served supper at the dining table yesterday, W asked to move the chairs around so we could both face the television in the next room. When I said I preferred to pause the television she agreed.

W has said she is glad I am promoting UA time and she seems less depressed. I think it is going to take some time for the changes in our habits to catch up with changes in our attitudes.

"Accentuate the positive" ---Baloo

CIGB,


The important part is you are taking those steps! Good work. Coming up with the idea to pause the TV show was a great example of you offering an idea, her accepting it. Those little steps are getting you where you'd like to be (even if it seems a bit slow at times).

Keep up with the respectful requests and the effort to get those UA hours.

Thank you Emily,
Your words are kind and I find your posts encouraging.