Oh yes!



It gets worse with time. We are really worried about you, hon.



Have you considered simply packing his bags and leaving them on the step with the plan B letter, having changed the locks?

I just kicked mine out, even though legally Im not supposed to change the locks. With a loving letter showing him the way back, it wasnt my fault he was out of a home now was it?

Yes I've considered packing his bags. I've also considered going to my Mom's in FL for several days.

I am well versed in family law here as is he...just changing the locks would probably cause a huge issue.

Being pregnant really limits the things I really want to do where as normally I would just do them.

Right now I am torn between starting to work on us falling back in love and just kind of checking out emotionally. I felt that the other day when I was kind of checked out, he seemed more responsive. I feel like when I try - it's forced and he is resistant and it becomes so much more clear how not in love with me he is. I feel like so many things in this process have only made me so much less attractive to him... I almost feel like being cold and distant is better.

That isnt unusual. We all felt like that. I did. Thats why I like the plans so much. You put the emotion to one side and just check off the plan stages.



That is very typical wayward behaviour. When you are nice they DO like it but it makes them feel all sorts of guilt so they pull away. He has also spent time demonising you to excuse his behaviour in his mind, so he doenst like you to undo his image of you as unfeeling. You want him uncomfortable - that means its working. Guilt is your friend. As long as hes guilty, the hardening process, which is based upon demonising you, is kept at bay.

When you pull away and are 'cold' - they get a bit scared. They know they need you meeting some needs and they want to keep you around - but not so close as to feel the guilt. This is why their behaviour veers around so much.

Dont let him yo-yo you around. Waywards excel at that. Dont base your actions on his reactions. Relentlessly Plan A him, whatever his mood. SHOW him you are not cold and unfeeling. Show him he has been lying to himself. - his guilt is his own problem, you wont let up showing him how amazing you are - the whole time warning him he is about to lose the good stuff.

And then Plan B him. He wont be able to get back into your life without agreeing to ALL the conditions for recovery.

Hmm...interesting. So true about the demonizing... to hear him describe me you would think I had been exactly that, a demon, for 3 years. He's definitely uncomfortable right now. Yesterday was our shower for this baby. Only my best friend and her husband knew and he was so angry the day before about what "I" had done to him by telling her (my best friend) but he went anyway and faced them. He was definitely uncomfortable then and for the rest of the day but it didn't feel like a good thing. Was that a good thing? I didn't know quite what to do but I knew I wasn't supposed to shield him from the consequences of his actions.

So coming up he's got a lot of work outside of work to do (we both run businesses in addition to our day jobs). His side business often requires that he works after work til about 7-8pm. Right now I am of course VERY suspicious of these jobs. He could easily say I'm going to xyz, and meet OW AT xyz so tracking wouldn't even make a difference. The reason he could potentially meet OW at these locations is because this is after hours work at offices so no one or very few people are usually around. No one would notice if he sat in the parking lot with her for an hour before or after the job that told me would take 2 hours but actually only took 1 hour. KWIM?

So, in the interest of acting very Plan A-ish... do I just act like none of it bothers me and not ask too many questions? Or continue to hold him accountable for his time and whereabouts very strictly?

I'm inclined to not pay it much attention to be honest. Me being all needy for re-assurance and constantly checking up on him sounds very unattractive to me and not something I want to be anyway.

What have you read about this program? What books, articles, etc? I am curious about where you got the idea that Plan A meant sitting there and acting like nothing bothers you?

I read all of this:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

And this

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5525_qa.html

And everything about the basic concepts, love busters, radical honesty, joint agreement, and so on.

The reason why I think I should act like none of it bothers me is because from my understanding, the point of Plan A is show the WS what he can expect if he stays in the marriage, that you are a fabulous person to be with, what he'd be missing out on if he leaves, and to basically help restore some of the love that went away. I understand that Plan A alone is not meant to make WS fall back in love with you.

Therefore, if I am this needy, clingy, untrusting, insecure, controlling and suffocating woman - why would he want to come back to that? You know - calling him to make sure he is where he says he is, calling to see why he is running late (he is usually very good about this on his own which is why I perked right up when he wasn't last week) asking where he is going and how long he will be, etc etc.

He freely volunteers all this information and always did in the past. He only got defensive about it when he WAS talking to this OW. But then...from what I discovered last week is that he can still find ways to squeeze in seeing her without actually lying to me about his whereabouts or even affecting the time difference THAT much (of course it WAS enough for me to question it and get suspicious last week and of course catch them).

So... anyway, I feel that that type of behavior is a LB. No?

PS Melody - I am ordering the book today =)

Acting like you feel something you do not would violate radical honesty, wouldn't it?

Telling your spouse "It bothers me when you ... " is definitely not a love buster. It is radically honest communication. This is in general, not just in the case of an affair. The case of an affair is one exception where Dr. Harley feels it is appropriate to rise to the level of a demand.

True, but of course everything is going to bother me right now. I have ZERO trust in him. So either I actually stop caring or I pretend not to.

Ok. That's good to know. But the sentence coming out of my mouth right now would be:

"It bothers me when you are not with me because I feel I can't trust you at all unless you are."

Not good. It's 100% true, but not good.

Pretending like something does not bother you is not part of Plan A. Plan A only means that you tell your spouse you would be willing to meet his needs in the future if he ends his affair and commits to the marriage. The Marriage Builders program of recovery would require that he account for ALL of his time and not be away from you at night. We call that extraoridinary precautions.


But you don't trust him. That would be silly to trust an untrustworthy person. So there is no reason to pretend like you trust him. You don't!

It is not "clingy and controlling" to expect that your spouse tell you where he is at all times - and account for that time. That is a basic expectation of any spouse. I know where my spouse is at all times, and he knows where I am at all times. That is how people behave in a stable marriage.

With your husband, he is so untrustworthy that he can't be trusted out of your sight. In that case, I would make plans to go WITH him on his business tonight.

Your husband should understand that if he wants to stay married to you, that being apart at night will not DO. He has to account for all of his time. THAT is what the future holds for him.

You don't lure a serial cheater into a marriage by promising to ENABLE them; you promise that any future with you will be one of holding him ACCOUNTABLE.

If you were with him, none of this would be neccessary. If he never ran late, none of this would be neccessary. If you knew EXACTLY where he was, this wouldn't be neccessary. See what I mean? You shouldn't be put in the position to do any of this if he were following extraordinary precautions.

If my H were a serial cheater who was so sneaky that he met women in parking lots to get in a 20 minute quicky, I would be with him 24/7. You should be with him at every opportunity rather than playing pretend games. Your husband is not trustworthy and it doesn't help you one bit to pretend like he is.

If he says "YOU DON'T TRUST ME!!" Agree with him!

There are some concepts here that are designed to be used in a RECOVERED marriage. Radical Honesty is one of them, also the Policy of Joint Agreement, etc.

Right now, you cannot tell everything (Honey, I put a keylogger on the computer, or a Voice recorder in your car...)

Right now you are at war against the affair. So you need to employ all tactics necessary to kill the affair.

Plan A is part of that strategy. Be your best self.
But only to a point -- Plan A to an undeserving unrepentent still-active wayward will drain your lovebank QUICKLY.

Sounds like your husband is TALKING a good game so far -- what actions are backing up his words?

This is all a reaction to his untrustworthy behavior. It is much easier to change behavior than it is REACTIONS. So if you want this to change, then his behavior needs to change. That is where I would focus. You are insecure and untrustworthy for a good reason...

- He gave me all passwords and access to phone records, etc.

- He has started to show me honesty by going into greater details telling me about the EA. We had a long talk last night and he told me lots of things I did not enjoy hearing (all the details of how the affair developed, the extent of his feelings for her, the lack of feelings for me, etc etc) He told me things I didn't know about other women where there have been improper boundaries (no affairs, but inappropriate flirtations, etc)

- He tells me where he is going, how long he will be, why he is going there, etc. And I KNOW he IS going there but I don't trust that that is the ONLY place he is going or how long it should really take.

For example - today he was supposed to go do a job after work. He prepped and loaded all the equipment necessary for the job in his car. He planned to leave his day job about 1/2 hr early to complete this job. This is new. He has NEVER done that before. It's always right after work and he is home by 8pm the latest and we always have dinner together. For this job he is planning to leave 1/2 hour early AND still it will take him until 7 or 8pm he says. Could be true, might not be true.

Then I get a phone call just a few minutes ago. Today's job will be rescheduled for tomorrow and replaced with a different job (I have evidence of this 2nd job via text messages that I intercepted). Or he may have nothing at all going on after work today. It's the nature of his business though.

My questions right now are:
-Where is job#2? he's been to this client before but I don't know the location. I didn't ask because I didn't want to seem overbearing but I can ask later.
-I DID ask - how long will it take on job #2 if you go today?

Answer: I don't know.

Is that a legitimate answer - absolutely. Depending on the problem it could take 5 minutes or 3 hours. He won't know until he gets there and diagnoses the problem.

This is what I have to deal with. Yes, there is lots of room to cheat in the lives we lead...but then again we work so much that sometimes there really isn't. We used to joke with each other that neither one of us would ever cheat simply because we never had the time. Ha freaking ha.

I can't go with him. I have two children to pick up from school & daycare and take care of. Remember I have very little help here. It's not like I can ask my alcoholic dad to pick them up for me so I can go with WH.

Yes I can and am tracking him though. So I will know after the fact if he went somewhere OTHER than where he was supposed to be BUT I can never know (unless I hire a PI) if he was not with her or some OW the entire time.

And yes, I've considered hiring a PI. I decided against it because I can do my own spying and save some money that I may need for moving out. If he continues to be as sloppy as he is anyway, it won't be hard to catch him again and I'll save myself a small fortune.

[quote = MelodyLane]
If he says "YOU DON'T TRUST ME!!" Agree with him!
[/quote]

Yes, we've had this exchange =)

Snooping is ALWAYS exempt from radical honesty as far as I know. Even into recovery...

What are your requirements for staying in this marriage?

What extraordinary precautions do you think your WH would need to implement in order to affair proof your M?

Good questions.

Requirements for staying in the marriage:
- end all contact with OW#1
- be remorseful about it (for more than 60 mins) for f***'s sake
- end all inappropriate/non-professional contact with women that are not me

Extraordinary precautions to affair proof:
- simply hold himself to the same high standards he was holding me:
- NO friends of the opposite sex that are anything more than barely acquaintances
- NO unprofessional email exchanges with the opposite sex at work
- change his phone number so all the hoochie mamas that have it now no longer have it and STOP giving it out to women
- voluntarily tell me all of his whereabouts, schedule, plans etc and check in while he is there by phone until I can rebuild trust (he already does this but I feel like he's more covering his tracks *sometimes*)

In general:

- make a greater effort to spend more time together doing recreational things that we both enjoy to keep the love there; that means hiring sitters more often, more date nights out

- have sex more often (3 x per week minimum)

Instead of writing long, complicated posts about why you can't do something, how about spending that time finding a way TO DO it? For example, are there any other adults in your town? In my town we have other adults who can be hired to pick up children from daycare and take care of them. Being with your husband is much more important than anything else in your life right now.

In order to recover you need to create an integrated lifestyle that makes it impossible for him to cheat. And if you can't go with them, then he needs to stay home and schedule it for a time when you CAN go. But you shouldn't sit at home waiting and wondering what he is doing. That is going to drive you crazy.

Find a way to make it impossible for him to cheat instead of constantly coming up with reasons why you CAN'T do something.

I hear ya Melody. I have thought of ways, you are right, it's not impossible I just think it's unfair to my kids. I don't see them for 9 hours and then to have a stranger pick them up after-after school and watch them for another 3 hrs just so my husband doesn't cheat and I keep my sanity seems...well you know.

But I will try to think of something - rescheduling, he could hire someone temporarily, etc. because yes I was going crazy waiting tonight.

Today I found myself wishing there was a switch and I could just turn it all off.