Hi everyone... it's my first post.

Please excuse how long this is in advance!

I've only been reading on the forums for a bit but I've read through the Surviving Infidelity article and much more.

I discovered my husband's emotional affair on Nov 8. It seems to have been going on for most or all of September and October until I exposed it in November.

We had been going through some issues and I knew he was unhappy to a certain extent in our marriage but things were being worked on already and changes were on the way. What I mean by that is I am currently 7 months pregnant with our 3rd child so big changes (the kind he wanted) were on the way and yes, he cheated on me while pregnant with his child. He has issues with me being neglectful to him & our family due to my ambition in pursuing and growing a business I started in addition to working a FT job. Anyway, like I said those issues were out in the open and being worked on BEFORE I found out about the EA.

Ever since I found out about the EA, he does nothing but blame me for IT and everything else in our marriage. Nothing is his fault, he shows ZERO remorse for the affair. It took him over a week to cut off contact with the OW and he is NOT being anywhere near as open with me as I feel I deserve.

I discovered the affair through emails. She is someone from work (of course). I confronted her too so she knows I know. She is [unhappily] married as well, with kids of her own. Once the affair was exposed, instead of wanting to be open and honest with me in order to move forward, he went into full lockdown mode - changed all his passwords and locked everything down even more - cell phone, computer, etc.

This is the supposed context and depth of the affair and what I know:
- they talked at work mostly and on the phone, their mutual connection was because they were both unhappy in their marriages
- once the EA was discovered by the OW's husband, cell phone communication mostly stopped because that's how he caught her (I had not yet discovered the relationship)
- they only met outside of work twice, supposedly. Once was a coincidence but they spent at least 1/2 hour together and were not alone - my kids and her kids were all there (playing together - how lovely).
- the second time was on DDay. I found out he was planning to meet her that day, we discussed it and he went to go tell her that I knew and that it was done (supposedly)
- he continue heavy phone contact with her for about 1 week after that DDay
- From what I can tell from my investigating, the timeline is accurate - the phone calls and emails and dates match up so I don't think it was going on any longer than that
- the content of the emails was all "sweet talk"...nothing sexual but definitely emotional and mushy (sickeningly so). "thinking of you"; "longing for you", "falling in love with you", etc etc
- he has not admitted to anything physical but I have not ruled it out...even if it wasn't sex, I know there is a possibility there may have been something and he will never tell me

I think I caught it very early. But... does that make it any LESS of an EA? Should I handle it differently than a LTA or a physical affair? As far as I can tell, he has not communicated with her since Nov 13. So we are in our 2nd week of withdrawal. I definitely see the symptoms. He has now minimized it to the point of "I don't consider it cheating" and of course it is 100% justified by how neglectful *I* had been in the marriage. SO, whenever I bring it up and try to discuss it in order to help me heal, he sighs, shakes his head and says "you'll never be able to get past this and work on the REAL problem which is YOU".

I'm done believing this is all my fault. The more I think about the timelines the more I realize that our marriage issues got EXPONENTIALLY worse the minute she was heavily in the picture.

We are on the mend...somewhat. There are good days and bad days and I feel like every time I bring something up, I make it WORSE instead of better. But I think we need to talk. He has to man up and take some responsibility for this. He needs to be open (no more lockdown)...I don't trust him one bit right now. I don't even trust that there is NC...there's just no way for me to verify right now.

But whenever I try to explain things like this, he says I'm "making it all about me". He is definitely in that fog where he has now made out our last THREE years of marriage to have been miserable for him...all this to justify what he has done. There have been tough times in 3 years, sure, and I was far from the perfect wife but...the way he paints the picture now is ridiculous. I now know it's the affair talking. I mean - why would we have agreed to wanting a third child if the marriage was so awful 5 or 6 months ago?

My fear is that by continuing to bring up the affair that I am making it a much bigger deal than it ever really was. However, by NOT talking about it, I feel like I'm being a doormat and letting him get away with blaming me solely for something he did that was extremely hurtful and disrespectful to me.

I know people here have gone through so much worse so I have only experienced a small percentage of their pain. Is this EA so insignificant that I should really just let him sweep it under the rug like this?

Should I just focus on us (my part) and forget about what I need (the openness and the for him to accept some responsibility and show an iota of remorse?) Should I give it time for the fog/withdrawal to lift and then re-approach him?

Thank you for listening. Oh we are both in our mid-thirties if that makes a difference.

Does he still work with the OW?

Also, how many affairs has he had?

Are you married? How long married? Have either of you been married before?

No other affairs [that I know of!].

We've been married 7 years and this is the first marriage for both of us.

Yes, he still works with her unfortunately. It's a situation where, in theory, he can avoid contact or even seeing her for several weeks at a time. There should never be a time where he needs to spend extended time with her (like say more than 1/2 hour) and they would never need to be alone.

Hi, Pieces. I'm sorry you've had to find your way here, but welcome to Marriage Builders.

Questions, please:
You say your WH and his OW worked together. Is that still the case?

Have you spoken to her BH to compare notes so you know what he's found out?

If he has locked down all his stuff, they have probably pushed the affair underground. It isn't over. If they're still working together, it's definitely not over.

Do your children know? Your parents on both sides?

How about their employer? Does their employer know that they are carrying on an adulterous affair using company resources?

It IS all about you, now, sweetie.

The affair is continuing if they have continued to work together.

EA's are equally devastating to PA's. Both involve deceit and betrayal from the person you trusted the most. It is NOT insignificant.

Here's the problem - they are still working together. The fog isn't going to lift under these conditions. One of them will have to leave that job.

Can you talk to OWH and get more info from him? That would be a good place to start. Do you know anyone at their job who would be willing to gather info on their activities? Can you show up there unannounced, like to 'surprise' him at lunchtime? (and see if he's with her)

Or he can see her every day, yes? Part of ending an affair involves no contact with the affair partner for life.

Ok, this is the problem. As long as they still see each other at work he will never withdraw and your marriage will never recover. You can just consider that as long as they work together the affair is still on. The affair will become more entrenched.

So that is where I would start if I were you. He has to leave the job. Have you exposed the affair to his employer? Exposing the affair to his employer will be a great incentive in getting him out of there.

If you expose the affair to the Director of HR and a key VP, they can watch them at work and keep them separated until your H finds a new job. That will not allow you to recover your marriage, but it might hold your marriage together until he gets out of there.

The fact that your husband blames you for his affair tells me the affair is far from over. He had the affair for one reason and one reason only: he has poor boundaries around women. And he is extremely unprofessional. People who have affairs at work are walking legal liabilities; loose cannons.

I would send this letter to the director of Human Resources, ccing a key VP and both of their supervisors. Then when your husband comes home tonight let him know that the only way this will work is if he leaves that job, ends all contact for life and commits to a program of recovery. [I will post some talking points in my next post]

The Aftermath
When things die down somewhat, it is important that you present a PLAN to your WS for recovery. The next step is to lead your marriage out of the ditch.

First step is to DEMAND your spouse end the affair.


Ask him/her to send a no contact letter to the OP that is written together, approved by you and mailed together. [template below from SAA]

Set her down and explain to her that you want to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and that you won�t stay in a loveless marriage. Tell her you are willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness. In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take to keep you interested:

1. end all contact with the OM for life

2. no more nights apart or going out without each other - create a healthy, integrated lifestyle

3. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc

4. no more opposite sex friendships

5. complete honesty about her affair<s> � passing a polygraph

6. commit to the Marriage Builders program for recovery as outlined in the book Surviving an Affair.

Tell her "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage." Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on her willingness and ability to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. She must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now she has failed. Unless she makes a 180 degree turn in her approach to what it means to be a wife, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage.

You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking this approach, because if she won't do these things, you will have lost nothing except a loveless, abusive marriage.

Thank you for the replies, I am going to try to answer all your questions...

Leaving this job is just not an option right now. There can be transfers but it could also happen that this woman gets transferred to the same place through none of their doing. In fact, it almost happened! When I exposed the affair I told him to put in for a transfer and he brushed me off. Just this week word came down that there was a possibility that SHE would be transferred to that same building I was asking HIM to transfer to (totally coincidental!). Had he gone for the transfer and hers gone through as well - they would have ended up in the same place again.

Here's where it gets VERY delicate. Husband and I also work together, met and married at work. Thaaaat's right. We ALL work for the same employer. We are spread out over different buildings and towns but, same employer. I can walk into his office whenever I feel like it and be almost totally justified so yes, that is an option. In fact, that is how and where I confronted the OW. They both [censored] their pants when they realized how serious this was b/c they know that three people's jobs are at stake here.

I have not spoken with the OW's BH. My husband seemed VERY protective of that whole issue. He claims that her husband knows but I suspect he has no clue the extent of it.

My kids don't know. Only my mom knows SOME information. Not all.

As for the employer knowing...they've probably heard rumors by now. Apparently rumors had already started which of course makes me question HOW much they were carrying on at work for rumors to start. Rumors don't start over phone calls that no one knows about.

Affair pushed underground...that's what I suspect as well...I can still monitor SOME stuff but he's being VERY careful now. Although he does account for his whereabouts voluntarily. He only gets defensive when/if I press for more details.

I think I can get someone to gather information on their activities... if not on my own... I have to be careful not to get myself in trouble at work though.

Poor boundaries with women = omg YES! When I got access to his email I quickly realized that he has been carrying on unprofessional communications with several women at work. Nothing close to an EA - but just things that are completely unprofessional... this EA was just a matter of time. The ironic part is that he CONSTANTLY preaches to me about MY boundaries with men to the point that I barely talk to or look at men AT ALL!

You're going to need to expose this, pieces. If his leaving the job isn't an option right now, is ending your marriage an option? That's what you're faced with, I'm sorry to say.

Here's your first exposure target. I suspect her husband is completely in the dark. Oh, she may have mentioned something in passing to him, but it probably went like this:

"You're not gonna believe what happened today. I was in Mr.Pieces' office, giving him some invoices, right? And in walks Mrs. Pieces, who starts yelling at me out of the blue to leave her husband alone! OMG, is she crazy, or what?? Like I would be interested in that guy at all, with my fantastic husband and children to come home to every night! Anyway, some of the other girls in the break room were telling me later that Mrs. Pieces has accused them of going after her husband, too! What a nut job!"

And that would successfully gaslight her husband, who is now going to be very wary of your contact with him. So make sure you've got something to back it up, like emails, copies of texts, times when he may have been with her, etc.

The employer is a good target for you, as well. They may be liable for a harassment lawsuit from anyone at that job. Is your WH in any position of authority over her, or anyone else?

His parents and your children need to know.

But this needs to be done all at once. Don't trickle expose - that can backfire on you.

My children are 2 and 6...I have to disagree with you there.

I am 7 months pregnant... I don't really think ending my marriage right this second is an option. It's not impossible of course, and I haven't ruled it out if necessary...I kind of accepted that that could be a possibility but that is not what I want and not what he says HE wants either.

No position of authority over her. However, I do suspect that if the right people at our employer got wind of this, they would do everything in their power to separate the two of them because this is a very volatile situation here at work. It's a ticking time bomb and they would know it.

I really would like to keep things civil. I know if I take it there, he's going to go into full defense mode for a long time and we won't get anywhere. I KNOW he doesn't want to leave his children and hurt them.

Isn't it possible that this relationship didn't run that deep yet? Isn't it still possible to move on without all the drastic job quitting, divorce threatening measures? Or am I fooling myself because I so badly want to believe it wasn't "that bad"?

Then this is definitely where I would begin. Notify Human Resources about the affair and they can either transfer or terminate your husband. Either way, you will win here. But he cannot work at the same place anymore. It didn't protect your marriage in the past and it won't protect it in the future.


That is great!! You know where the Human Resources Director's office is located! So getting those 2 separated will be the first step. The next will be to get YOU out of there.


I would do this ASAP.


Tell any children over the age of 4 and most certainly tell your mother and everyone else. Go read the link in my signature Exposure 101.


This all misses the point and will get you nowhere. He has to leave the job.

The basic issue is that you have lowered the bar SO LOW that recovery is impossible, Piecesofme. By keeping your H's activities a secret, you only serve to be his enabler. Stop doing that if you want to remain married.

YOU are ending your marriage by enabling it. I just want to point out that you are headed to divorce RIGHT NOW. Your marriage is being threatened by an affair and unless you do something about it, you will end up divorced. What we are telling you is most likely to result in a RECOVERY.

And of course a 6 year old can understand adultery and should be told the truth. Giving children false explanations for the source of tension in their home just teaches them to be dishonest. children also believe that THEY are the cause of the problem when parents lie to them.


Things will not be "civil" when you land in divorce court over an affair. What you are trying to do is avoid conflict. Avoiding conflict will lead you right to divorce.

You don't have the luxury of avoiding conflict and sweeping this problem under the rug when you have 2 little kids and one more on the way. You have to protect them too.

Dr Harley speaks to a betrayed husband who never exposed his wife's workplace affair. The wife was LEAVING him for the affair. This is where you are headed.

Dr H tells this man it is very hard to save a marriage when you are an ENABLER: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2814

Yikes... ok. This is scaring me... because it all makes sense.

Yes I am trying to avoid conflict.

Yes I am enabling...I can see that now. In my head, I was making it easier to move forward.

He says I have no right to make demands of him because this is all my fault anyway. So for me to demand all this stuff is going to send him over the edge... how can I do it without causing huge turmoil...or is that unavoidable and necessary at this point?

Should I wait until I make a plan? I'm starting therapy (for myself - he won't go) next week... should I wait until then?

If he has cut off communication with her (again, as far as I can tell) and it SEEMS that he is coming back around and actually working on us, wouldn't doing all this just bring us back to step one?

I think everyone will tell you you are not past step one. You are not even at step zero.

Nothing will work until there is no contact between them. You will remain triggered if you see her.

These are fundamental. No other questions are worth answering until this is accomplished.

Exposure ruins the fantasy. Shows them that scurrying around in the dark makes them roaches, not beautiful butterflies. That their beautiful flower is really a weed that wilts in the glare of the lights.

It will get ugly. For the affair. There will be anger. But avoiding anger hasn't gotten you very far yet, has it?

NC means NO contact. It is fundamental. You have to realize that.

I would put a VAR in his car under his seat or in the dash board. He probably talks freely to her in the car on his way to work. you will catch what they say with it.

Get a keylogger too for your home PC. Desktopshark is a great one and has lots of different options.

Your hubby has gone to lock down mode? That means the affair is still on ... he is addicted to the attention he is getting from the OW just like a crack head is addicted to his crack. Time to take the crack pipe away. Expect him to be angry ... blow his top .. etc ... but as far as marriage goes .. there is no privacy between spouses except the use of the bathroom. People who dont have anything to hide ... dont need to lock their PCs and phones.

If you get some hard evidence of the affair, do not let on that you have evidence bring it here for the vets to disect and direct you. You will need to expose this to everyone once ya got the goods.. far and wide so he can face the consequences of his actions. DO NOT WARN HIM .. just do it! If you warn him or threaten exposure he will turn it around and make you the bad guy before you get a chance to state your case and then things will get even tougher.

meanwhile ... read up everything you can here .. act like everything is ok while you snoop. Do a great PLAN A with a carrot and stick. Once the pressure is off .. he will slip up when he gets comfortable. Hopefully the VAR or the keylogger will find what you need. Then be ready for war.

MNG

You say he seems like he is coming around .. but that should not stop you from CONFIRMING .. all the while you do a good PLAN A. pretend like its all ok while you gather your goods!

Ok...so what is a VAR - I tried googling it and I'm not getting the right thing - what is it an acronym for?

I have access to his phone records & text msgs already (unbeknownst to him) - there have been no phone calls on his cell or text messages to or from her since the 13th.

And... if this even matters, all communication on his cell since Dday has been initiated by her only.

I am monitoring his home PC but not his work PC or work emails (at the moment, it's just a matter of time until I gain access to that again). His home PC activities (where I found evidence of the affair before, show NC with her) again, since DDay. HOWEVER, he does know that's how I caught him the first time so he might just be taking extra precautions on his home PC.


Because of my showing up at their place of employment, they were already completely exposed at work (in their building). So there's no place for them to hide there - it's not a pretty little fantasy for them there anymore. They were VERY much shamed by me showing up there in all my pregnant glory and exposing them. Everyone in their building knows. (just not the rest of the entire company, to my knowledge)

Should I try to gently ask him to open up once more before I pull out all the stops on snoop mode? I don't want to tip him off.

Thank you so much - I do think confirming the NC is a good plan for right now.

Do you understand what NC means. It is not this.

Sorry .. VAR = voice activated recorder. So if it was under your Hubbys seat attached at the bottom or in the dashboard hidden .. it starts recording as soon as it pics up sounds or someone talking. You can ge them at future shop ... radioshack... etc .. pretty much any major electronics store.

What does triggered mean? Sorry, I haven't found the definition of that one yet though I see it a lot. I wouldn't really see her unless I went out of my way...or she gets transferred to MY building which is also a possibility...would LOVE that! haha



I don't know...he seems to respond better and open up more when I approach him firmly, but calmly. Although... the one time that I did flip out, I could FINALLY sense some fear from him that he had something to lose, and a tiny HINT of regret... and HE was the one to back down... momentarily. It was when I said to him "Tell me what I have to do to get through to you. Either you stop talking to her or your find your clothes out on the front lawn when you get home."

It did SEEM to work... from that day forward there was NC - that I have detected, like I said.

Yes, I do understand...I guess I'm just trying to avoid making this a HUGE deal at work. We both have to work there... ugh. I would like to be a little bit more discreet about it.

triggered means .. reminded ... the reminder will set him back and drum up his feelings and it bring s him back to the beginning of the withdrawl stage each time his feelings are resurfaced. He will seem distant again ... etc.

Do not rule out a pay as you go affair phone now the hes on to you. HENCE the VAR!

Thank you!!! Will do!!

Get a digital one ... and put a large SD card it in like a 4gig. So you can leave it for a few days then retrieve it when he is sleeping or something ...

Play it on the low side ... pretend everything is ok while you PLAN A ... meet his needs etc while not expecting to have yours met for a while (temporarily)

Stop bringing up the affair to him for a while ... this will get him comfortable while you do some super sleuthing.

Kind of how he was acting yesterday... after returning to work after a week of vacation with me & the kids where everything seemed like it was going well...hmmmmm...


We agreed that he would tell me each and every time there was necessary work related contact with her or if he saw her, spoke to her, etc due to work requirements. I asked him on Monday he said there was none. I did not ask about yesterday.


Have not ruled out a second phone for sure or new email addresses... trying to find evidence of that...

He claims that he got caught so quickly because he "wanted to get caught". He told me he left a very lovey email to her open on his PC at home for hours one day just to see if I would catch him. He told me he could not keep up the deception and that he was "bad at it". Um, no not really...because I trusted him...

I will be blunt, you are not getting it.

Either she needs to leave that employer or you both do. No dancing around it.

All you asking for advice, plans, snooping, everything, will all hinge on NO CONTACT.

There is no alternate plan on here. If you are trying a different way, why ask for advice on here?

You are not getting it.

Get the keylogger for your home PC ... when he gets comfy again he will use the home PC to get his "hit" once he thinks your not on his case anymore. If you can not get into his account on your home PC ... get the hard wired keylogger. Plugs into the USB port in the back and sends you logs. www.desktopshark.com The software version is best as it remains hidden becasue if he looked at the back of the PC he would see the hardwired keylogger plugged in (unless you had a long USB extension that tucked behind the desk and it was sitting on the floor attached to the USB extension.

You can't avoid conflict if you want to resolve this, so just scratch this off your list. You are going to have HUGE, MASSIVE turmoil if you want to save your marriage and you are going to have to remain calm and STICK TO A PLAN. If you can put aside your emotions and follow a plan you can make it.


I would not wait at all. You can make a plan NOW. Just read the link in my signature and then come back and lets talk. That will give you an idea of what you need to do, along with good exposure tactics.


You are not even CLOSE to step one. That will never happen as long as they work at the same place. He is not working on your marriage and he is not even remotely serious. Just the fact that he blames you for his affairs reflects that. I bet if you put spyware on his phone and a VAR in his car, you would find they still communicate outside of work.

I know .. herb ... but since she is not in a position to force him to leave the job yet .. she needs other advice that she can work with until they get to that point. I agree that the AP has to go ... I would possibly (if i was her) try to get the HR going on a sexual harassment lawsuit suggestion, to get OW to "disappear". But in the meantime ... she has to confirm and gather some goods since the job situation is kinda tricky for them at the moment.

Quoting for TRUTH!

I am an alcoholic. Will I be sober if I take "necessary work related drinks" and just tell my husband?

You don't get it. Telling you will not solve the problem. The problem is that he SEES HER. Do you see what I mean? What does telling you do? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. The fact that he sees her makes withdrawal and recovery of your marriage absolutely impossible.


Your husband is a very mean, cruel guy who likes to play headgames with you.

Do you have the lovey dovey email so you can show it to her husband? I wonder if will be equally amused at your husband's cuteness?

I see also that OW is married! .. did you tell her BH? If you got any evidence in hard copy at all .. I would expose to her and her family too as well as yours if you got the "goods".

MrNiceguy, I don't think you get what herb is saying. He is telling her that his "honesty" about contact is worthless. It means nothing. What she has to do now is EXPOSE the affair. The confirming and gathering time is passed.

Mel ... I dont have a husband :P should fix that quote. lol

edited: thanks

She HAS the goods. Her husband has admitted the affair. She now needs to EXPOSE the affair and get her H out of there.

I see.... but if he only admitted it .. but she has no "hard proof" to back up her claims when she exposes. Couldnt he just claim shes crazy? (if he hasnt already).

I guess we should ask. Do you have hard evidence of the affair other than him admitting it to you?

Oh no, she does not put off exposure at this point. His admission is proof. That is plenty of evidence and she needs to run with it.

Ahh .. ok then .. If HIM leaving the job is possibly not an option in the OP eyes .. then she would have to come up with something to get OW out of the company somehow. I guess threats of exposure to OW wouldnt work... yeah .. OP has to expose ASAP to get rid of her .. and take the chance that both her hubby and the OW lose their jobs since a threat of exposure will only allow them time to whitewash it and turn it on OP.

Wow.... tricky situation with all 3 at the workplace.

Best case scenerio is hubby keeps job .. and OW looses hers.

It's not tricky at all, really. If HR knows about the affair, they can pull up their email and cell phone records and verify for themselves. As long as they know, they can watch the affairees at work and keep them separated UNTIL one or both of them are gone. They may even transfer or fire one of them.

That will help UNTIL the OP and her H get jobs elsewhere or one or all are transferred. Telling HR will bring it all out in the open and give them a chance to separate them. Working together is NOT an option.

POM, I've read your whole thread up to this point. Sorry you've had occasion to come here, but welcome to MarriageBuilders.

I'm also sorry to be writing to you as a man who got into an emotional affair, and kept it a secret, for a time at least, such that I allowed myself to get infatuated; and in such situations, emotional affairs become physical affairs. It happens to people whom you'd never have thought it'd happen to (I mean, I'd always been an upstanding family man, never the sort of "scumbag" who'd have an affair, right? I didn't even have major issues in my marriage, or so I'd have told you then.) Until suddenly, in the face of a bit of fawning attention from someone, I became exactly such a scumbag -- nice suit, crisp tie, clean-cut, and inside I'd become a scumbag all the same. And it doesn't take long at all... From a time when I'd never had a single remotely-questionable conversation with the other woman, to the time when I was in a full-blown affair, it took less than 2 months.

My point for you in relating the above is that it's a grave mistake to regard an emotional affair as any less serious than a physical affair. Given proximity and opportunity -- both of which abound in your husband's case -- emotional affairs become physical. An emotional affair is just a "baby affair" that hasn't grown up into a full-scale marriage-eater yet. All that's missing is time, and it doesn't require much. If you want to save your marriage, you'd better treat this as if it's THAT serious. Because it is.

But you have a problem that my wife didn't have once she learned of the affair: The problem is, your husband doesn't think it's THAT serious.

See, when my affair got busted by the other woman's husband's private investigator, the affair had already been going on for 2 & a half months, and physical for half of that. There was no minimizing it. My wife & I each had no choice but to take it seriously. She had no leeway for self-denial, and I'd put myself into a situation where if I wanted to save my marriage, I had to break it off, keep it broken-off, end the deception & stop lying to my wife & stop lying to myself.

BUT your husband is still lying to himself if he thinks he didn't have an affair. He's lying to himself if he tells himself it's not that serious. And he's lying to you if he tells you any of that. And his cutting off, rather than increasing his transparency toward you -- in terms of blocking you from his accounts, etc. -- is a dead giveaway, red-flag that his mindset remains wayward. If he tells you they're not in contact, without opening up & proving it to you, then you'd be a fool to believe him. Remember, I know waywards -- because 3 years ago, for an awful 2 & a half months, I was one.

For crying out loud, he's been caught red-handed, in writing, professing how he's falling in love with another woman. That is almost as f*d up as it needs to get when it comes to affairs. All that's left is for one of them to pay cash for a hotel room, so that it doesn't show up on the credit card statement. Deep down, he knows this is wrong. If he didn't think so, then he wouldn't be upset to have you reading his love-notes with the other woman. If those communications were so innocent, then why the coverup? Surely he would welcome the chance to get all the communications out in the open, to prove his innocence, right? The fact that he's reacted as he has, tells you all you need to know.

So you need shock & awe to change his way of thinking.

You need to expose the affair to family members. His AND hers. You need to expose it to their supervisors. With your written evidence if you still have it. And you need to expose it to mutual friends, clergy, coworkers -- anyone whose esteem your husband values.

And you need to tell him what my wife told me on the day I confessed my affair -- see 2nd quote below, in red text. You need to make clear that, even if he wants to lie to himself about how serious this is, you are not willing to lie to yourself or be willfully blind to where he is headed. You need to tell him that you love him so much that you're not willing to tolerate for another single minute this crazy risk he is taking with your marriage & your family.

I'm not sure how he'll react. But I think your odds of having him snap to are better if he realizes that he can't fool you, can't snow you, and can't lie to you any longer. Simply put, he needs the bucket of ice-water on the head, to help him realize that he's out of second chances and that he's at a point in his life where he truly needs to decide what kind of man he'll be remembered as, by those whom he professes to care most about.

And if he walks away, rather than agree to change his ways, to live transparently, and to resume actually being the man he's only been pretending to be lately -- then he won't have been worth having around anyhow.

So sorry to tell you that I highly doubt this was *just* an EA. Secret meetings? That is a HUGE red flag that the relationship went physical...already. And waywards meeting to "end" things almost usually always = sex.

This is important for you to understand (1) so that you are careful about STDs and (2) so that you are aware of the risk you run of OW getting pregnant. Please listen to the others about exposure and doing whatever you can to bust this up NOW.

I realize that your WH may have sworn on a stack of bibles that this was only an EA but please understand waywards LIE. When there has been any recent contact, you have to just expect that.

Why are you going to therapy? Have you been diagnosed with a mental illness that requires therapy? Because the only problem you've got that I can see if that your WH is having an affair. You can go to therapy until the cows come home and it won't change a thing, if you're going because he's having an affair.

The only reason he appears to be 'coming around' is because he's cake-eating. He's convinced Pieces to shut up about the affair, and she did. Now he gets the luxury of having his needs met by both women without his wife getting angry about it.

He is NOT 'coming around'.

My FWH met his skank online, talked for about 2 days via texts, met 2 days the next week, met for sex 2 days the week after that. He was "in love" with her the next week.

Affairs move fast.

Don't discuss the affair with him at all. Plan A with everything you've got. And snoop like crazy!

Have you read about Plan A? here

VAR = Voice Activated Recorder. (Although I'm getting caught up on your thread, so this has probably already been answered.) Don't get the cheapest one. Try WalMart or Radio Shack.

You're asking a lying wayward to tell you the truth about something? And when he answered, did he pinky swear that he was telling the truth? Your WH is wayward, Pieces. Waywards lie. It's what they do.

Please refer to my previous comment about waywards lying.

There does not appear to be anything in her sitch that would be cause for a sexual harassment lawsuit. However, if Pieces makes her outrage clear that the employer allowed a permissive atmosphere to pervade the workplace, allowing the affair to flourish, she may have grounds for a lawsuit based on a hostile work environment. I would go this route with your employer, Pieces.

Does your employer have anything posted regarding discrimination in the workplace, Pieces? They are required to have it posted in a prominent place. Do they have an employee handbook? Does it make any reference to workplace affair or dating between employees?

POM, from the questions you've asked here, it seems clear to me that you're not realizing something very important to know about the nature of affairs: Affairs are closely akin to addictions.

Read that again.

In their brain-chemistry impact, the infatuation of an affair -- the euphoric dopamine "rush" that an affairee feels from prospect of the no-strings attention & affirmation given by the affair-partner -- is little different from that of crack-cocaine.

In other words, your husband is a junkie. Just like I was when I was in my affair.

--Can you talk a junkie out of being a junkie?
--Can you reason with a junkie?
--Can you successfully ask a junkie to stop lying to you in order to keep getting his/her fix?
I don't know the answers to the above questions scientifically, but anecdotal evidence seems to be that it's mighty darned hard to do so if they're allowed to stay in contact with the junk. And if you interfere with junkies' getting their fix, they get surly & hostile toward you. They shut down toward you. Don't they? Hasn't he?

So, your idea of "gently asking him to open up" is not going to work at this point. Until he's gone through withdrawal completely & his head has cleared, he will see your soft-pedal approach simply as his having dodged a bullet, and he'll likely resume looking intently for ways to keep getting his fix. His fix of the other woman's attention.

Even if he hypothetically has a lucid moment when he has the best of intentions, he is likely to try to at least keep the door open for more of his fix at some point in the future, until he confronts the seriousness of what he's doing, and/or is forced to slam that door shut. Either way, for your marriage to heal, he must implement a strict practice of "no-contact" with the other woman, ever, for life, period.

About halfway through my affair, my wife had gotten uneasy about the other woman & about how much time I was spending with her, practicing music. (Yeah, that's how it started... it was that innocent.) Of course, by the time my wife & I had this conversation, the other woman & I were no longer just merely rehearsing music... we were also having conversations, sharing confidences increasingly, and building an emotional bond that I never should have tolerated, much less welcomed.)

Well, when my wife expressed her concerns, I told my wife (1) that nothing untoward was happening, and (2) that I'd stop being alone with the OW to practice music if it made my wife uncomfortable. And although I didn't admit to my wife at that time the fact of my attraction to the other woman, deep down I was indeed aware of where this inappropriately close friendship could well be heading -- and I even made a half-hearted effort to break it off. But because I was already a junkie, already infatuated, I chose not to slam that door shut. So I soon resumed taking her calls, and we resumed e-mailing each other. The affair rekindled with a vengeance. It went all the way physical, and almost cost me my marriage to the best woman on the planet.

I'm not going to say here that I don't mean to scare you, because I do. It's better for you to be scared now, and to act accordingly now to save your marriage, than to find yourself like my wife found herself, wanting to collapse into a sobbing heap, 4 or 5 weeks from now when you find out that the affair has gone all the way.

I know you don't deserve to be in this spot. No, it's not fair that your husband has put you into this spot. It's not where you wish to be. But you can't save your marriage now by acting as if you were where you wished to be. You are where you are, and you need to act based on this reality. You need to be calm, you need to stand firm for your family, by showing your husband a steel resolve that he can respect. You need him to know that you care for him & for your marriage & for your family too much to stand for the path he's on.

P.S. You might wanna get the book "Surviving An Affair." Our marriage counselor put us onto it in the days after my affair. My wife & I will both tell you, it may well have saved our marriage.

Maybe not sexual harassment, but it appears from what she said before that she does have significant leverage at work if she chooses:

Um, yes. That's what I said - it was in the rest of my post that you cut off:

Um, I was merely commenting that she herself says it's a powderkeg, so the threats of a lawsuit don't even seem required, not that she couldn't go that route. But from her post it sounds like exposure to the "the right people at [their] employer" would be quite effective.

Um holy crap. I am totally terrified now. The gross feeling in my gut is back and it's because I know that you are all right.

He's fine because he's cake eating...

Here's the thing about the evidence... you guys are going to kill me... I let him delete it. I had screen shots of all the emails and key logs and we sat down together and I agreed to let him delete them so we could "move forward" and start from scratch. Right now the only hard evidence I have is phone records from that time frame.

I know what I can do about work. I can force it so that they are separated however, it does call attention to our marriage in the workplace being an issue and one of us will probably have to go too...I would think.

Do I threaten him with it first?

I see how this could be an addiction and working in the same building would be an issue and this would never end. Do I gather more evidence first and then confront him again and lay it all down or do I just come out with it now?

I will go read Plan A now...maybe all the answers are there.

I think the big red flag for me is that I so badly don't want to go buy the VAR because I'm afraid I WILL get something...very soon.

Don't you guys think that if I expose at work to the extremes you are suggesting that he'll just turn and run out of sheer humiliation? I can't see saving our marriage if I out him like that at work... there's just no coming back from that...


GloveOil thank you so much for your side of the story... such insight...

Trying to stay calm and not flip on him right now...he's right here next to me...

Thats ok! You have his confession. That is good enough. When you expose him at work, they can access their email accounts and get all the hard evidence they need.


It will call attention to the grossly irresponsible, unprofessional behavior of your WS and the OW. One of them will likely have to go.


Oh no. That would be crazy and foolish. That is like handing your battle plan to the enemy. You need to expose without warning. Did you read my Exposure 101 thread? NO WARNING and expose to everyone on teh same day.


Expose the affair to the OW's husband, your families, the children and the workplace. You don't need more "evidence" to prove to him what he already knows. You tell him he finds another job or he needs to move out.


I just gave you the answers.


I would get a VAR, put spyware on his phone and computer tomorrow and then plan the exposure on Friday. That way when the affair goes into freefall you will have all of your intelligence in place.


You have it backwards. Your marriage cannot be saved as long as he works there with the OW. Hopefully, he is very humiliated. HE SHOULD BE!!

Is it ok to not want to know if this went physical?

Ok read the Exposure 101.

I think I already did most of that when I confronted them at work.

It was a very public exposure and confirmation of the affair when I showed up there. He was VERY angry.

They were both ambushed by it too, no warning was given.

Sure. If you're feeling lucky not knowing about STDs & your health & the health of your unborn kid. Or if you're OK with allowing your husband to keep thinking that dishonesty & deception remain options for how he relates to you. Or if you think a stabbing victim [figuratively-speaking, in this case, your marriage relationship] can heal properly & become better, if the wound is sutured up with the knife-blade still broken-off inside the patient.

Not knowing works fine for all of that.

How much you need to know is up to you. I wanted every gritty detail. Other posters want less. I would suggest you assume it was physical because the opportunity was there. I would get checked for STDs just to be safe.

POM, I should hasten to add a couple of things:

-- First, I'm not harshing on you. I have no standing to do so. I hurt for what you're facing. I just want you to keep it real about what you're confronting. I have unfortunately seen it from the inside.

-- Second, I'm not suggesting that you should wig out on your husband. One of the points about MarriageBuilders is that it strongly advises against so-called "Angry Outbursts." You need to show your husband that steel, but in love. Even if you're so angry you could spit nails. But you need to make clear to him what you won't stand for. The way my wife did.

-- Finally, re: your evidence, you need to be the judge of how much will be enough to convince. However, one thing you definitely should NOT do is give him or the OW any further forewarning whatsoever that you will be exposing. Just do it. Remember, exposure works best through its shock value. It keeps the affairees off-balance, and begins to make them realize that they aren't calling the shots & can't control events anymore. Confronted with this realization, many "cake-eaters" who still have a shred of a conscience simply throw in the towel on the affair, as it becomes far more trouble & disruption to their lives than they ever wished for.

No... I already considered getting my dr to run a full std panel...anyway. I am going to ask for it regardless of what else I find out. I mentioned it to WH and he said "test away".

You all told me this would happen and I had a feeling it would but not like this.

I've been doing what was recommended here: continued monitoring/surveillance/gathering information. Sure enough, he got lazy and my access only got better.

Today I found evidence of what appears to be A SECOND CONCURRENT affair with yet another woman. This 2nd OW is also from work (not in the same building or town even), is also married with children and has been a long time "friend" of his. I never considered her a threat or that anything was up because he always told me about her and never saw her (at least that I knew of). Anyway, he's known this woman longer than he's known me so I can't imagine this hasn't gone physical at some point.

Her email simply said that she couldn't talk now that but that she awoke this morning "CRAVING" my husband. She requested a txt. She sent three emails before he finally replied with pictures of him and our family and our kids from thanksgiving (no text). He proceeded to immediately delete all the evidence of the communication. (I screen capped) I'm can only assume he called her after that (work phone so I have no record of it).

So now... my plan is to just collect enough evidence on THIS particular A and then confront him and tell him I am done. As of today I have checked out emotionally and he suspects something is up. He was being so sweet to me.

What can I expect when I confront him with this second affair? I plan to gather enough evidence that he can't deny it's just "fun" or "flirting". Will he blame me again? Deny and justify, etc? What can I expect and/or how should I handle it?

I am done...I have checked out emotionally

Given the truth of your own statement, why confront "him" at all?

Put together a total exposure package, and send it out to his (and her) universe of family, friends, co-workers, etc, with a note explaining that this is why you are dissolving the marriage. Also provide copies to your lawyer.

Don't look for drama (in a face-to-face showdown) where there is no need for one. Big risk, no reward.

ITA, don't bother confronting him. Expose this far and wide, and then go into Plan B. You can gain much perspective and healing during Plan B, and if you decide to enter Plan D, it will benefit you greatly.

Gather your evidence, get your Plan B letter ready, prepare for Plan B, and then expose, and enter Plan B.

No! If you are really planning to divorce, the plan is completely different. You need to do all the same snooping, but hold onto your intel until you have researched divorce laws in your area and talked to a lawyer. It might make a difference in your outcome.

huh? This is news to me... Who said the plan is different if you plan on getting a divorce?

Piecesofme, Neverguessed is correct, you need to prepare an exposure packet and just send it out. Regardless of whether or not you get divorced, everyone should know of the affair. Most especially the OW's husband.

Good for you for patiently gathering the evidence.

Ok...it's a new day (sort of)...I'm not sure I want divorce. I think there is still hope. I know people have survived multiple affairs...I don't know if I'm one of those people that can or if we have a marriage that can but I'm still willing to try.

I went for my STD test today. He doesn't know but he suspects something is up because my demeanor has changed drastically. He is now very remorseful. He is now very sorry.

I want to give it one more chance. I know I need to expose - to expose to close family (i.e. his mom, sisters, etc) should I do it in writing or by phone?

Do I confront him and go into Plan A or Plan B? I'm not going anywhere and I'm not throwing him out. I will check out of the marriage though: sleep on the couch, stay just for the kids, etc. I just don't know what to do next. I still need to gather more evidence on the 2nd A though. At his rate, I'm sure I'll get some today...

What if there are 5, 10 affairs? What do I do? How do you handle a multiple affair situation?

Thank you for your replies. I feel so so lost right now.
ETA: How do I find out who OW#2's husband is? Again, we work for the same employer so I have to be careful not to leak my exposure plan.

Edited to say: NEVER MIND!! We already told you what to do and apparently you aren't doing that. There is nothing more we can help you with. As long as your H works with the OW and you keep the affair secret, this is hopeless.

Please stick to the same thread. I had to go back and re-read your other thread to get it.

Click on the carrot/stick link in my sig line.
Some of your questions may be answered there.
Carrot AND stick means Plan A is NOT "plan nice" or "plan doormat".

While you Plan A .... you get Plan B ready, just in case you need it.

LINK **** How to Plan B

NEVER discuss MB plans with a wayward spouse.
NEVER !

bump

They still work together. And the workplace has never been informed so your H is free to pursue workplace affairs.

Piece-
I guess only you can answer what to do if he has had multiple affairs..I think regardless of how many he has the key is if he will change or not..and don't think he had the affairs because of something you did, or didn't give him. It was all poor boundaries..so if you can work the MB program and he is willing to do what YOU require to continue the marriage then I think it's worth it but that will always be your choice..Good luck and never feel bad about snooping...!

Your marriage will not survive on-going affairs. And as long as your WH is working with these women, the affairs will continue.

Exposure 101 You'd better go back and re-read that. The only thing you did was to expose to the two people who already knew they were having an affair.

Keep gathering intel...


I wouldn't be so quick to take separating off the table. You can separate for a short time without the full intention of divorcing but rather to deliver the message that this is serious and will require permanent changes in his behavior to mend (kind of a "When to Call it Quits" newsletter approach).


TWO OW in an indication that he's a collector. Like susieq's husband, he likes the attention of many and all women in his presence. He didn't slide down the slippery slope into an affair...he IS the slippery slope. I don't know all the facts of your situation but I fear that making recovery easy at all with a player like this is going to cost you tears in the future. Not that recovery isn't possible but absent this guy hitting rock bottom alone in his sister's or his parents basement under the daunting thought of having to pay child support for three children for the next 18 years...only then, might he get it and be willing to do ANYTHING to make it better.

Once you get all your facts...consider calling into Dr. Harley's radio show.

Mr. Wondering

Understood, and I absolute agree - but clearly at this point, the problem runs deeper than that. OW#2 worked in the same building with him over 7 years ago. Not since then. He does not see her at work ever. We all just have the same employer. And clearly he's still carried on inappropriately with her. Unless he works strictly from home there WILL be other women at his next workplace.

YUP. I see that. So how do you deal with a collector?

EXACTLY!! In order to recover he would have to take extraordinary precautions and that would mean not ever working around women again. In the meantime, you should officially notify Human Resources of your husband's very legally risky, unprofessional behavior. By keeping his secrets, you become part of the problem.

Your marriage will not make it unless he makes dramatic changes in his lifestyle and I don't see you even taking the first steps to achieve that.

I know you don't, I'm working my way up to it. I just want to have it a good plan in place. Still gathering intel...this bit of intel was crucial so I'm glad I got it. Don't give up on me yet LOL

your stitch sounds eerily similar to mine 2 years ago. I found a EA in October, then found another OW in December.

Had I found MB immediately I could have saved myself alot of heartache.

Listen to what thses posters are telling you. And do what they say. They have all been in your shoes.

You can make this M work, but you have to get to the bottom of his lies, AND he has to be repentant AND willing to do whatever it takes to make you feel safe.

You can find out what all he is up to with a poly. I did a poly after 5 months of gut-wrenching trickle truth. That is the ONLY way you will discove the extent of his A's. DONT BELIEVE WHAT HE TELLS YOU! W'S LIE!! even if he sobs and pleads and begs you to believe him.....do the poly.

Once divorce begins, you need to use different tactics to protect your legal position. That's all I meant.

There are times when evidence can be used as a bargaining chip in the divorce. In some states you can sue the OW/OM for alienation of affection and you need to protect your information (and discuss with your attorney). After my divorce was filed I could not expose to WXH's work or family because there were injunctions preventing it until the divorce was final.

I was under the impression that the purpose of exposure is to help end the affair and restore the marriage. If the BS no longer desires to restore the marriage why would they do a widespread exposure? Can you help me understand, Mel?

Ok I have questions. Should I continue on this thread or go back to my original? (sorry about that)

What were you able to confirm with the poly?

Dr Harley believes in honesty regardless of the reason. Sometimes a BS may not choose to save the marriage but others should still know about the affair. People who know about the divorce should be told why. First off, there is no reason to keep it a secret or give false explanations for the divorce. And secondly, if kept secret, it puts a BS in awkward positions for years to come.


This is a good reason to expose the affair BEFORE divorce is filed. Keeping it secret is to enable his affair and that is not something most folks would sign on for. I would not be agreeable to that.

This is my plan right now, please tell me if I am on the right track:
1 - Start a solid Plan A (I've been doing it sloppily - too many LBs) while continuing to gather intel on the other A so that I can:

2 - Expose all affairs thoroughly

3 - Demand (?) no contact with all affairs (requiring job situation change)

3 - Demand (?) total transparency & disclosure (considering a poly for this portion) - i.e. he must reveal and open up all passwords, phone records (what else?) if we are to move forward

Questions:
-what do I do if he refuses any of the conditions? For example - his favorite is that he won't reveal his passwords because he still deserves "privacy". Yes I know it's so he can continue to cheat but what is my answer to that - just stand firm with my demand?

-What about his whereabouts? He can easily just lie to me about where he is - what if just sees the other women when convenient?

He's here be back in a bit...

STEP ONE

STEP TWO

The Aftermath
When things die down somewhat, it is important that you present a PLAN to your WS for recovery. The next step is to lead your marriage out of the ditch.

First step is to DEMAND your spouse end the affair.


Ask him/her to send a no contact letter to the OP that is written together, approved by you and mailed together. [template below from SAA]

Set her down and explain to her that you want to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and that you won�t stay in a loveless marriage. Tell her you are willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness. In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take to keep you interested:

1. end all contact with the OM for life

2. no more nights apart or going out without each other - create a healthy, integrated lifestyle

3. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc

4. no more opposite sex friendships

5. complete honesty about her affair<s> � passing a polygraph

6. commit to the Marriage Builders program for recovery as outlined in the book Surviving an Affair.

Tell her "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage." Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on her willingness and ability to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. She must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now she has failed. Unless she makes a 180 degree turn in her approach to what it means to be a wife, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage.

You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking this approach, because if she won't do these things, you will have lost nothing except a loveless, abusive marriage.

I will post on the other thread.

Yes


Yes. Ask him to start looking for a job where he can be held accountable. When you present your conditions, say it like this:

"this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage.." Don't say "I demand you do these things." Say this is what it will take. And these things are not negotiable.


You tell him thats not acceptable. There is nothing private in marriage. If he wants to keep secrets from you, you will rightly assume he is hiding something.


If he lies, then you should go to Plan B. These measures are not something to be grudgingly agreed to, but things that are designed to make you feel safe. If he is not enthuiastic about them then it is clear he is not interested in making you safe. If he won't agree to these things, ask him to MOVE OUT. Let him know you won't stay in the marriage under these conditions.

Thank you Melody!

The rest of my questions:
-what about fulfilling sexual needs? He doesn't know I got tested and I won't have results for 2 weeks. I expect to be able to confront and expose all affairs by that point so at that point do I ask him to get tested so we can continue to have sex? And in the meantime do I continue fulfilling that need?

-He did the EA questionnaire w/me and the top 3 needs were (in order):
1 - Family commitment
2 - Sexual Fulfillment
3 - Domestic Support
However, it seems to ME that the need these other women were fulfilling was Admiration. He listed that very low (#8) on his questionnaire. What gives?

Has he slept with these women? If you don't think he has, then I would sleep with him.


FC and DS are not intimate emotional needs and have nothing to do why he fell in love. [they are not intimate emotional needs] I would focus on the top 4 intimate emotional needs and put the questionaires aside for now. Focus on conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment.

The reason he rated FC and DS as hign EN's is because he is not in love.

PoM, if you clicky notify and send a request to the mods, they will merge your two threads for you.



Yes. Your only alternative is to agree to his 'privacy' to have affairs.

You Plan A for three/four weeks, so you sound like a broken record, telling him what your conditions are. If he comes back with a ludicrous request for privacy, you either ignore his response by changing the subject, walk off and make a romantic dinner or reverse fog babble.

fog babble : "I deserve privacy"

reverse fog babble: "yes, there has been way too much secrecy and I want us to have a more open, loving life together"

Then rinse and repeat until you are in Plan B or he agrees to your conditions.

indiegirl, you are a rockstar!!

No, I don't think he slept with the first EA I discovered (the more recent one) but I think the second one I just stumbled on yesterday has probably been going on much longer and therefore has a much higher probability of having gone physical at some point. I have no clue on that one. I only have one line in one email to go on, and insinuation that they have texted, and the fact that I know that they used to talk on the phone regularly (about 1 per month that he would tell me about).


He claims the lack of me meeting those needs is why he fell out of love with me or "became disconnected from me" as he puts it. So that's why I thought I had to focus on those.

Question... since I found out about the second possible A, I've been trying to be kind and still meeting his ENs but I couldn't help but become a little colder and more distant (at least for now). It seems to have flipped the switch in HIM. And now HE is the one being affectionate toward me. As of 3 - 4 weeks ago (first d-day) it was all me and if he didn't want my affection he had no qualms in letting me know.

ETA: Is a little bit of the cold shoulder a bad thing to do? I would think so going by MB concepts.

Also while in Plan A - if I discover (as opposed to him telling me) about any contact with OW#1 - what do I do? Keep my mouth shut b/c I am still gathering intel on OW#2?

When I do confront and expose, if he goes back into lockdown mode and I lose all my snooping abilities, then what? Plan B?

Found OW#2's BH!! I have a way to expose to him now!

And one more question: What if nothing else resurfaces regarding his relationship with OW#2 within the next 3 - 4 weeks? Do I confront and expose with the little intel I have?

Thanks Indiegirl! Will do!

POM, sorry if I'm missing info between the different threads, but you've got the OW's "craving" comment to your H on screencap already, right? That sounds like plenty to run with. You're not thinking of waiting 3 or 4 weeks to expose, are you?

No you aren't missing anything. Should I expose now? I feel like I'll have the strength to by tomorrow or the day after. I was a puddle of nothing today and the sooner we get this out of the way, the sooner we can start working toward recovery, right?

I'm just concerned that I'll get "That's all you got? oh please, that's nothing! That's not an EA!" Combined with a shock and awe of more exposure though - maybe it'll work. But I'm also wondering at this point if there are more OWs.

What do you suggest?

ETA: Also I was doing Plan A (albeit a sloppy one) since D-Day #1 but discovered repeated contact with OW#1 at least once per week the for the whole 3-4 weeks. He refused open transparency and will again, I am sure of it. I don't feel I got to do the BEST PLAN A I could. I can do better. So maybe 2 weeks of a kickazz plan A then expose?

ETA #2: (sorry for all the questions)
Like I said today he seemed very remorseful (for the first time!) and even called himself a "monster" for what he did to me, said that he didn't even know who he was (something I had said to him), and that I didn't deserve what he did to me.

FINALLY!

BUT...and here's the big but... he emailed OW#2 only yesterday... What. the. eff? My head is so messed up from all this...

EVERYTHING he has done, that is under our definition of cheating, over the last 18 years! From PA's to simply (not to say I take it lightly) looking a name up on the internet.

When I told him I had scheduled a poly....he started remembering things. It took a couple days of talking and note taking to get most of it, then he remembered a couple other things on the day of the poly.... He was SHAKING like a chihuahua when he sat down in that chair!

My FWH has been in law enforcement his entire life, he knows he cannot "beat" the poly.

If you find a great poly tech, and word your questions correctly, your WH will be singing before he even gets hooked up to the machine.

It's a sobering experience for a WS. And, when you insist he take one, his reaction will tell you ALOT.

Wow... so you warned him it was coming though. And he agreed to it? What if WS doesn't agree to it?

POM, your husband does not "get it" in any way/shape/form if he's still countenancing such correspondence. He is, as we say, totally fogged-out. If this were not the case, then he would be living a transparent life toward you.

If you know the OW#2's identity & can find her family members & work supervisors to expose to, then if I were you, I would expose quickly, "shock-&-awe" style, with no warning to any of the affairees whatsoever, including your husband. This throws affairees off their stride & may drive home to them that they are no longer in control of information or events. You can Plan-A after exposure.

Re: your wondering if there are more OWs: Your husband is going to have to commit to total honesty (including retrospectively, about the past), and to total transparency if you are to ever feel emotionally safe again in a marriage with him. If he makes this commitment, then you can ask him to take a polygraph about the past. If he balks, you'll know where his heart really lies.

I love hearing from you GloveOil b/c you are from "the other side" if ykwim so thank you for your replies!

If I expose lets say Friday... Monday is probably better, no? so they have to live with it the whole week at work? Friday gives them the weekend to recover and sweep under the rug...

Anyway, if I expose Friday, I will certainly lose all my access to passwords, computers, etc. I will have revealed all of my snooping sources - then what? Especially if I get the brush off on the email? Is it really enough evidence?

Yes, he could. But, if you include a "annual poly", or a "whenever you see fit poly" in your demands, he knows if he screws up you are done.

My FWH has had 2 poly's thus far.

He passed both of them, his second one was this last July. When I scheduled this one he confessed to a few minor (I don't take lightly) infractions...ie...tried to look up a name on fb, looked at porn, and drank once. All against our EP's.

After that fiasco and revelation, he now knows if he even commits a "minor" infraction of our EP's he is "outta here!"

Now, he tells me of any and all women that he comes in contact with. It may seem/sound awkward at first, but it has become second nature to him, and it makes me feel safe. And.. He and I both know that if another poly comes around....he has to pass if he wants to be a part of THIS family.

He does not even make eye contact with women, no talking to women,(unless it's work related, and I hear about it) and the list goes on.... Some would think he is an A-hole (to women) but, that's fine with me.

I have to brag a little here....when my FWH does presentations to groups, he puts our picture up on the powerpoint screen either before or after the gig. It's gotten a lot of positive responses, and it shows that he is happily "taken" and proud of me! (he did it just today)

This can be turned around POM, I wouldn't be telling you all this if I did not believe in the MB concepts.

Keep up the good work!

I would expose with what you have. Your husband has admitted to an affair with OW#1 so there is your evidence. You can also include the information about OW#2 and say that this is a possible affair also. Give her husband what you have.

After you expose you give your husband your conditions like I said. If he doesn't agree to them all, ask him to leave. Once he leaves, you go into Plan B.

Yes, he needs to know the questions up front, it gives him plenty of time to lose sleep over it.


If he doesnt' agree...

If you have listed it as part of your demands to stay in the M, and he won't do it, then he is not committed to recovering your M

I would expose on Friday. Your H won't be able to sweep it under the rug unless he is in touch with the OW, and he won't be. I would do it on Friday because that will give you time to deal with the fallout. And they may not speak to him at work until Monday, so don't tell him what you have done.

The affair needs to be exposed to the Director of Human Resources, a key VP and both their supervisors.

He is probably reading here. Does he have spyware on your computer?

Ok - what if he won't leave (because I'm fairly certain he won't)?

Also - with exposing to OW#2's husband, I only have his FB page right now. I can message him but that's about it - I have no idea if she's in his account or not - what if she intercepts?

ETA: Oh and how do I expose to the OW#2? Oh please, please tell me I get to say whatever I want to her! Something along the lines of:
Dear Skank #2,
Do me a favor and stop craving my husband and tend to yours. He was cheating on you too so you aren't even his only special little skank.

Ok. It felt good to write it LOL

What makes you say that? Nah...not at all... I don't think so. We are both computer techs and he is so wrapped up in his own secrecy, lies, and cover up that he doesn't even notice me googling polygraph tests right under his nose.

The reason for his remorse I think is that he felt guilty because the excuse I gave him for rushing to the doctor last minute like this is that I was concerned about the pregnancy. It freaked him out a bit. I want to believe it's genuine remorse but it's probably just that.

Then make plans to file for divorce/separation and get him out legally.


C'mon, this is stuff you can figure out!

I'm not an expert in that area...the vets can help ya there.


does he have a business name? email address? have you plugged his name in to intelius?

I would email him or call. (imo)


I had to laugh here...I didn't find MB until months after my DDay, and I was too scared to do anything like that. But, now that I have grown some.... I think of all kinds of creative things that I would like to say to the OW's.

Anyhow, the OW already knows she is boinking your H, no need to remind her. Though it would make one feel better.....

So some of you say I can Expose and then continue to Plan A for about 3 - 4 weeks. But doesn't that send a conflicting message?

I can see how this is going to go down:

I'm going to confront him about OW#2 and tell him total transparency is what it will take to keep me in the marriage (essentially an ultimatum), he is going to say "too bad, I guess we are at an impasse", he'll change all his passwords again, say that *I'm* destroying the marriage by continuing to do dig things up that are insignificant instead of focusing on the "real problem" which is [according to him] me & my not meeting his needs for 3 years - and then I'm going to continue to meet all his needs for 3 weeks and make him romantic dinners like nothing ever happened? Oh, all the while insisting on transparency over and over again and having him continue to deny it to me because I'm sitting there treating him like gold anyway?

How in the world is that supposed to work? It sends the message that my ultimatums mean nothing and that I will continue to kiss his butt while he continues to cheat on me.

Here are the other things he's going to say:
"You are so selfish. Stop consuming yourself with insignificant BS and focus on your pregnancy. TRY to relax for the baby. Lets please focus on having a healthy baby and you stop making this all about you like it's been for the past 3 years"

"I knew you wouldn't be able to get past this. I guess we are done because YOU can't get over some meaningless nothing words that I exchanged with someone else THAT YOU CAUSED to begin with"

"I refuse to live with you constantly peeling through all my private information. What kind of life is that? I have nothing to hide. I don't do that to you. I don't need to do that to trust you. It's the principle - you know how I am"

"I already told you. I am here for my FAMILY. I am here for you. I want this to work. What more do you want?"

The fog is so dense with this one...

Just as an aside... My FWW (and I suspect other FWS' here) also said tons of stuff during the A. "I don't love you", "you're selfish", "you are the type of person I would never marry", "this is your fault"...

deep down they know this is bull-puckey. In reality, they know that those things are true, but about themselves and not the BS.

Yes, you expose the affair and then you sit down with him and give him your conditions.[ULTIMATUMS] He either agrees or he moves out and you go into Plan B. If he says what you said above you will know he is not serious about making a radical 180 change and committing to your marriage.

The reason is because you don't have a marriage unless he does those things.

I don't understand where your confusion lies.

I think I understand your confusion now. Moving out is not Plan B. Ask him to move out now if he won't agree to your terms. And he probably won't because your husband is a gaslighter and a manipulator, so it will take some serious action on your part for him to believe you are serious.

Get him out and then take a week or two in Plan A to get prepared for Plan B. Plan B will take some preparation. But the first step is to get him out.

My confusion lies in the Plan A part. How can I Plan A AFTER giving him an ultimatum of do it my way or leave? Or am I giving him my demands with a 3 week timeline for him to meet them?

And lets say he chooses neither:
"I'm not leaving MY house. We will just stay married for the kids, but we are done"

Also can anyone point me toward some exposure success story threads? Yes the fear is there - I'd like to see some stories/examples of where this tactic is not going to completely destroy any chances of recovery.

You are missing the point, the same point that everyone seems to miss when they arrive here.

You don't have any chance of recovery unless you do this. NONE. Not now, not ever.

You may have a chance to not divorce and stay in a marriage like you have now. If that is your goal, then go for it.

You have NO CHANCE OF A RECOVERED MARRIAGE now.

You do Plan A.


What will you do? I need you to be a little more proactive here. What will you do?


You can read through the threads on the website. What we are telling you are best practices as advised by Dr. Harley.

The other thing I don't get is that I'm supposed to confront him about this OW#2, expose the affair, then turn around and be all lovey-dovey with him?

No. It causes a huge fight. We don't speak for hours. Everything is awkward and uncomfortable. Terrible things are said. He's in pain, I'm in pain. If I try to be affectionate or loving or caring or offer sex in the face of it all, I get shot down and get the "you are a hormonal psycho" look.

Exposure does not destroy marriages. It saves marriages. Almost all of the success stories here were due to exposure. Here is what Dr Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders, says:

here

I didn't know about MB for almost 3 years after Dday. I did exposure in a very half-*(& way. But I did expose.

Thankfully the exposure I did worked. I exposed to her parents, and our kids. Two groups that she feared repercussions from the most. I also exposed to OMW (who already knew but decided to not tell me).

It worked. I recommend FULL exposure though, as Dr. Harley suggests, because the wider the exposure circle, the better results you get (and possibility of support in saving the M).

My wife? She was thankful for the exposure. It sealed the end of her affairs. She didn't have to carry the secret with those she loved most and was held accountable.

Did I tell you to be all "lovey dovey" with him? What are you talking about?


Wow, you mean he would be upset at exposure?? I can't believe it!!

POM, when you expose the affair your husband will, OF COURSE, be furious. It would be silly to think otherwise. He will be enraged, will make all sorts of threats, "I am going to divorce you now.." blah, blah, blah....

That is an EXPECTATION. You don't fight, don't get upset and don't try to reason with him. And most of all, you don't come here and post his fogbabble because we don't CARE what he says. What we care about is what YOU say.

Ok, ok you guys are getting through

So wait for him to cool down from the rage of exposure (which could be days, I presume?) and THEN present the plan for recovery?

I also read that the Dr. is not so quick to expose when there is insufficient evidence of the affair. I don't think I have enough to go on yet with OW#2. He says "have enough to convince a jury" before exposure...I definitely don't have that on OW#2...yet.

Hey listen Plan A is most certainly lovey-dovey, especially if I am to focus on meeting the most intimate emotional needs of the relationship so he can fall back in love. Affection, recreational companionship, sexual fulfillment and conversation = lovey dovey for sure. And it is so flippin hard to do that when you know you have all this dirt on him and all these suspicions and you KNOW he's sitting there lying to you.

I keep making these little digs about honesty and trust... LB's I know...

What you will expose is what you HAVE to her husband. You can also tell Human Resources to investigate their emails, etc to see what is going on there.

And no, you should be presenting your conditions as soon as possible to your husband. You don't wait. He will calm down enough on the first day for you to tell him. He might reject it at first, so be prepared for that. When he rejects it, just stick to your story and be a broken record.


Plan A only means that you a) eliminate lovebusters and b) convey a WILLINGNESS to meet his needs IN THE FUTURE IF HE COMMITS TO THE MARRIAGE AND ENDS ALL CONTACT WITH THESE WOMEN.

Plan A is being FIRM and resolved.


Which lovebuster would that be EXACTLY? The basic issue is that he is not honest and can't be trusted. You need to be saying that. That is not a lovebuster.

Have you read about the concepts? What have you read so far?

I like this idea of giving him a letter. It removes all the emotions and he can read it and then when he calms down you can discuss it. So why not write it out with the elements I gave you and give him the letter after you expose? Give him the letter, ask him to read it so you can discuss later.

The reason you don't want to wait on OW#2 is because you are unlikely to EVER get the evidence since it is in the past. What are the odds they would talk about something in the past? It might never come up. Just go with what you have.

I would also make a copy of it in case he throws a tantrum and tears it up or something. Mel's right though, he will calm down enough the first day.

CV

There will only be a fight if you engage with him in a fight. So...don't.

Stay calm. You are on a mission, sister. There is no need to expend the energy by having a knock-down, drag-out. Be cool, be collected, be resolved. Don't fight back.

You don't need to be lovey-dovey with him, either. Lay down your conditions. Tell him you love him and want to keep your marriage and 'here is what it will take.' How he reacts is his business (and he'll no doubt howl like a banshee, because that's what waywards do, so expect it.) YOU remain calm.

Yes, emails seem to work with him so I could write a letter. Good idea.

WILLINGNESS to meet his needs....ah, that makes sense now.

I figured my jabs were LBs (angry outbursts) because they are snarky and always piss him off real quick and usually start an argument:

Exihibt A: I have this info that I'm sitting here stewing on... this morning as we are leaving the house I give him a school pic of one of our boys and I say "here, put in your office...maybe it'll help keep you honest"

And he gets pissed. "You see," he says "you are hell-bent on destroying us".

I read all the basic concepts.

I would lose the snarkiness and take a more direct approach like the one I suggested.

Note: Waywards could cause an argument in an empty house and would try to pick a fight with our lord.

You: Gosh, you're handsome and support me so well.

WH: I knew it! You are shallow about looks and only want me for my money.

This is where reverse fog babble is so useful because you can come back with anything, it doenst have to make sense.

A) Yes we are a good looking couple, arent we?
B) Want a cookie?
c) I especially like your sexy chin dimple...

etc....

Sarcasm is a form of disrespectful judgment.

Eliminating it was extremely hard for me.

And completely worth it.

(I still get to be kind of flirty sarcastic, sometimes, when she appreciates it. But that's different.)

Major turn of events...

For the past two nights he's come home late. Not VERY late but about 20mins late or so - without good reason. The GPS tracker was giving me a weird address that looked like nothing but a parking lot so I was suspicious yes, but not yet convinced (denial).

I went to check out the spot yesterday during lunch. Yes, just a parking lot about a 1 minute drive from his job. I left work early and drove straight there last night. And of course found his car parked there. I searched the parking lot but could not find the two of them (OW#!). Eventually he came walking down the street with his tail between his legs.

He said it was just this one time, they were planning to just go around the block to Starbucks, blah, blah blah. I know not to believe any of that. So of course, at this point I accept that it's been physical and that they met secretly (that I know of) at LEAST TWO more times since I caught them and since there was supposed to be NC.

I immediately exposed to OW's BS. Admittedly it was in the heat of the moment and I should have calmed down and thought it through a little more carefully and handled it a bit better but I left a message at his place of employment and now his whole office knows. My intention was not to hurt him but to expose.

I got everything from my WH last night. Remorse, regret, promises for total transparency, ZERO contact, even tears almost.

Everything except - now he has to talk to her to go over the repercussions of MY actions in calling HIM. Such effing BS. I was not prepared for the excuse this would give him to talk to her today. Not quite sure how to handle it today. I have insisted and demanded that he simply write an email but they already talked once and will continue to talk today no matter what I say. It is SO infuriating to me that I am on the verge of doing and saying things that I know I will regret so please help me cope with this portion of it.

BTW - I am a total convert - exposure WORKS! He was sooooo p!ssed and said all the things you guys said he would and I kept calm and kept telling myself "this means it's working!"

BUT... the twist is that now he says he sees me in a different light, and how could "I" ruin someone ELSE's life like that blah, blah, blah I know BUT...it's definitely making me VERY unattractive to him right now so now what?

Now you ride the exposure wave and stick to the plan. Remind him if he contacts OW he's gone and plan A your behind off. Of course he will blame you, but continue with exposure until the affair is completely dead. Finish the exposure today... friends, family, mailman, everyone you are close to that doesn't know.

No. Here's where you need to put your foot down and say, "No. See her again, and you're out on your [censored]."
Failing to draw this line is what you may regret most.

Ok I did say that in many different ways shapes and forms. The question is, how do I ACT now?

We have a holiday luncheon in a couple of hours so I will see him. Do I act like the fabulous wife I'm so supposed to be during Plan A or let him know that I am done because when I hung up the phone with him just now, it was because SHE was calling to discuss the events of last night. And I said, "I already told you how I feel, do what you gotta do". He IS GOING to talk to her today regardless of what I say or do. My threats are empty to him because I told him last night there was still hope if he was willing to do all those things he promised me. **please wipe your feet on me before entering**

Then change that. Follow through.

This is not rocket surgery.

I would firmly but gently tell him that he has an immediate choice to make. No contact or move out immediately. Go to the lunch and do your thing if you must, but remind him no contact is not up for debate. Change the locks if you must.


CV

Good cause I wouldn't know thing one about performing surgery on a rocket LOL

Sorry - couldn't resist.

Was she calling you, or him?

She called him first thing this morning and they spoke very briefly according to him.

I know they will talk again later today because she had to go very quickly. I don't know who will call who. I'm sure they are trying to communicate with each other to "find out what happened" and establish the no contact policy.

To "take care of it" as my WH put it and "it will be DONE with today".

He is concerned about the fallout from the OWs BH finding out. We work and are heavily involved in a very political world. The consequences of all this could be very far reaching.

I'm am enraged right now. He just doesn't get it. I told him {not to be insensitive or cold) but I don't give two sh..ts about what happens to her family. That is NOT my problem or MY doing. They spoke this morning, nobody is dead, nobody is in jail, it's fine. I need HIM to focus on US and the promise he made to ME just last night. But he doesn't get it.

***WE*** could have lost our baby last night. I started having contractions. But all he cares about right now is the fall out on HER end. So. EFFING. P!ssed. right now.

Sorry for the major venting.

More conversations with OW, without your involvement? You're right -- he still doesn't get it at all.

I would skip the luncheon. Being there with him is not what you need right now. Let him wonder & feel uncertain for a bit re: what's coming next.

My first instinct (and here I'm off my game, because I'm reacting with anger for you) is that Hefty, 39-gallon Cinch-Sack bags will hold lots of his stuff. If you have a single-family home, you could put them on the curb. If you're in a condo or apartment, you might have to check re: designated areas.

BUT: You shouldn't be stuffing heavy loads into bags. You need to take care of yourself & your baby. Is there someone, a friend or relative nearby, who could come & stay with you for a few days?

Your husband needs to realize his days of sleeping peacefully are over unless/until he straightens up & starts flying right again. I don't think anything but his junk on the curb is going to get that across to him. He can come back according to your conditions, including complete transparency. Anything less will get you more of what you've got.

Ok - we just got off the phone. It's done.

He is dragging his feet on transparency (I'm sure he's got some tracks to clean up) at the moment but I told him it was a condition of moving forward with us. I expect to have all passwords, phone records, etc tonight.

No contact.
And total honesty.

NOW we are finally at square one.

ABSOLUTELY NOT. That is not acceptable.


You need to send the workplace exposure letter TODAY to Human Resources and do your exposures. Go read the link in my signature and use those talking points. Don't be a loose cannon to shoot yourself in the foot, BE STRATEGIC.

Did you call the OW's husband and tell him? I want to make sure he knows everything and you are in continual touch with him. He needs to know they are still in contact today.

You are doing the right thing.
Please follow through, it is the only chance he will ever REALLY change. Consequences of his actions.
You are amazing. He does not have the right to put you through all of this. He is lucky that you evenb consider giving him another chance.

Do not cave. Do not make concessions. None. He has gotten away with this for too long already.

Wishing you well for tonight, and God bless you and your family.

Happyheart

So when does he leave the job? He can't work there anymore. You are not at square one until that happens. He is NOT honest. That is a lie. And he is STILL in contact. He just contactd her this morning so he could put his story together.

Have you told her husband? Does he know they are still in touch? Does the workplace know about his affair?

You are not doing the things necessary to effect recovery.

ALL HE CARES ABOUT IS PROTECTING HIS AFFAIR. He is in protect mode and if you don't kill this affair by finishing your exposures and getting him out of there, then the affair will continue. All he did was tell you enough to get you off his back so he can continue his affair. Dont' stop now!!

I hate to tell you this....



The purpose of their talk was to establish the NEW contact policy, not the NO contact policy.

They will more likely conspire to find a new way to communicate that is further underground and "spy-proof".

That is why NO CONTACT is established by a LETTER, not a visit or a phone call. That is why NO CONTACT means that YOU AND HIM prepare a letter to HER that says he never wants to communicate with her in any form ever again! And you then block all avenues of access to him.

Waywards think they need closure, which only further ingnites their love and need for each other. "Talking" only leads to "meeting" which leads to the affair being fully on, and more hidden.

From this moment on -- there are no more secrets between You and Your Husband. OW needs to be the outsider, and it needs to be YOU and HIM against HER.

He is not allowed to make her feel better, or let her down easy, or tell her that he really wants to be with her but his mean wife won't let him....

THIS IS 100% true.

what has he done to protect YOUR feelings and earn YOUR trust and make YOU feel safe?.......NOTHING YET

Absolutely NOTHING yet. We have to talk more when we get home tonight.

Yes her husband knows they were communicating today and yes I called him. I am in the process of exposing to his family all day today and no he doesn't know.

MelodyLane - I understand your pov on this and I appreciate every single reply you have made to my posts - they have helped tremendously, however, I cannot expose any further at work because we WILL BOTH LOSE OUR JOBS (I've been here 13 years, I know how it works) and we have a baby on the way and two other kids. Even MB says he doesn't always advocate total workplace exposure. He will put in for a transfer once the dust from all the election results has settled (very political world here, very delicate issues here) because until that happens, we don't know if they could both potentially be accidentally moved to the same location. I sense your frustration with me on this issue and if you must throw your hands up in the air at me over it, I understand.

New contact policy... yep, I guess we will see. Of course they can go further underground. Ultimately, if he wants to continue the affair HE WILL find a way. I cannot control every action of his. I have to accept that. And then HE will have to accept the consequences of that which are that he WILL lose his family. If he continues the affair after this he and I are done.

The thing is we could move to another state and he could still find a way to talk to her or start a new affair. At SOME point this IS out of my control and I have to accept that that simply means we are done. I mean, isn't that true?

How can I make that more clear to him - I feel like that part may not have sunk in... that we are DONE if anything like this happens again?

I feel like at THIS point it is so clear to me that I have to work my butt off to make him fall back in love with me.

BTW, does this mean withdrawal starts all over again for him? UGH. KILL ME NOW. Dumb question, I already know the answer. I can FEEL the answer. =(

Any tips for getting through this next part? Again?

Uh, when has withdrawal started?

I'm guessing it starts today?

Maybe, not if he keeps in contact, in any way. A glimpse from afar counts.

I gotcha. I am not frustrated because it is not my marriage, it is YOURS! And yours won't EVER recover as long as he works with the OW. You should make it one of your conditions that he find another occupation. And start looking now. Otherwise, this is hopeless.

As it is now, his affair is NOT OVER. As long as he works with her, you can consider the affair ongoing. The issue with your husband is that he is a playah and can't work around women.


Yes, but this fails to comprehend the nature of an addiction. Ask yourself this: am I more likely to drink while in the bar or while I am 100 miles from a drink? If I am in the bar looking at beers all day long am I more likely to be triggered than when I am in Subway sandwich shop?

See where I am going with this? Saying that he can find a way to talk to her if he is separated misses the point, because he is much less likely to talk to her if he is NOT TRIGGERED AND SHE IS NOT THERE. I am much more likely to drink if there is drink RIGHT THERE because there is opportunity and because my desire is triggered.

And yes, he can and WILL start a new affair. In any other state if he remains IN THE SAME ENVIRONMENT. That is why I suggested he needs a new occupation where he is not tempted. The solution to infidelity is to CHANGE THE ENVIRONMENT. Do you see that? Lets say I drink too much when I am in the bar, wouldn't it make sense to STAY OUT OF BARS? That would be the logical solution.


In order to "withdraw" he has to not see or speak to her. If he works with her, he obviously cannot withdraw. In order for your marriage to recover he has to WITHDRAW. Recovery begins when withdrawal begins.

It starts when he ends contact. ALL CONTACT.

Here is what it will take to recover your marriage:

here

Actually, YOU will pay the consequences. You and your children. He is very willing to lose his family, as you have already seen. Do you think the loss of his family prevented him last night? It hasn't stopped him in the past and won't stop him in the future. Trust me on this!!

So what do you do? You give him conditions and DEMAND extraordinary precautions to protect you from his abusive behavior. He can't have an affair if his life is structured so that it is SO TRANSPARENT that is impossible to carry on the secret second life necessary for an affair.

But again, this is your life, not mine. If you want help with this folks will help you.

Yes. Everything depends on this, Pieces. In my sitch, my husband was exposed at work by the OWH. He thanked God that her husband did so, because he didn't know how to end it.

There was a point where my H realized that he was in over his head and was in a bad situation. He determined to end it and make it a benign dalliance that I would never hear about. He tried for weeks to avoid her, but the addiction pulled him to her. He would swear to himself each day that he wouldn't go near her. He would walk into his office at 9, firmly resolved to have nothing to do with her. By 11, he was in her cubicle.

Her H even threatened him, and that didn't stop him.

The day they were exposed to their employer OWH made OW quit her job. (After threatening my H's employer with a lawsuit.) That ended the affair. Done. Dead.

This is an addiction. He won't be able to break this without leaving that job. He cannot have any sort of contact with her, even remotely. It's that simple.

So I guess all I can do now is go into plan A, hope that works while we wait for a transfer scenario or wait for either this affair or another that he could have ANYWHERE with ANY woman ANYWAY to end my marriage. What am I supposed to do, lock my husband in the basement to keep him married to me?

He WILL see other women in his daily life, regardless of where he works. Playah or not...if he's not in love with me he won't be faithful and THAT is now the root of the problem.

Where's the forum the teaches you how to "just stay together for the kids" because I can see that that is where we are headed.

YIKES this is not a 'marriage at all costs' forum. Why would you want to teach your children that marriages are fake?

Serial cheaters can change - but they will have to account for all their time, keep themselves very open to scrutiny and probably work from home.

If you arent up for that, you should consider Plan B and Plan D.

I just feel very defeated & hopeless right now. I see no end in sight. He walks around everyday like nothing is wrong - he is happy, he can eat, he can sleep just fine. I can barely function some days. Maybe I should cheat so I could be half as happy as he is right now.

Today I really do just want to leave. Today Plan B sounds wonderful to me right now. (why is it that every time there is a new discovery it takes more and more days for the numbness to go away and the pain to set in?)

My parents stayed together for the kids and it didn't teach me that marriages are fake. Only MY now miserable marriage destroyed the illusion of marriage that I once had.

Is this his first marriage?

Yes, his first, my first. We married when I was 27 he was 31 and we got pregnant on the honeymoon. I was on the pill but I had messed with the timing of it to try to avoid getting my period on the honeymoon and instead created my beautiful first born son. We've been married 7 years and been together for 11 years total.

Why do you ask? Is because most first marriages don't work out?

Actually more second marriages don't work out than first.

Not true. This is the only option you are willing to take.

Right, my other options are:
1 - force my husband to quit his job and work at home so that he never leaves the house without me and *hopefully* never sees another living breathing woman again. (You know he actually COULD work from home but it would STILL entail leaving the house and/or meeting with clients that could potentially be female)

2 - move out

Option #1 sounds ultra realistic.
Option #2 is totally possible but you are right - I am not willing to take this option right this second.

Option #2 will not bring him back to me. It will just give him all the freedom to have all the affairs he wants to so I may as well just get divorced. All I see of the plan B people on here is that they are prolonging an inevitable divorce while their WS happily continues their affairs without facing any of the repercussions of actual divorce and the BS has their life on pause. With a knife in their gut. Sounds great. Plan B for 6 or 7 months? Uh, no - that's called separation pending divorce.

I have considered, as a final feeble effort, writing a letter to the OW's BH asking that HE urge HER to leave the job. Do you recommend this?

And if that works then yay, OW#1 is out of the picture but what about all the other women in the world?

Let us know when you get serious. I refuse to waste my valuable time on someone who is less serious than me about her own marriage. When you start putting your energy into finding creative solutions instaed of creative and elaborate EXCUSES I will know you are serious. This post is not serious, it is stupid.

Good luck on that.

Have you still not exposed to OWH?

YES I have.

Oh and btw - my WH was FURIOUS when he found out. Said EVERYTHING you guys said he would. And then he calmed down and by the end of that SAME night - he was already saying how it was "probably a good thing".

I was floored. I am a total exposure convert!! Exposure is the absolute BEST thing ever. It's the ONLY reason why there may be a hint of a chance still here. If anyone is in doubt - just do it.

You obviously do not understand the purpose of Plan B.

Aside from not enabling your WS's cake-eating...Plan B = protecting yourself. Women who put up with the stress of dealing w/a wandering spouse end up with PTSD, nervous breakdowns or later in life a weakened immune system and other health issues.

I have a very good friend who endured her WS's A and abuse for much longer than Dr Harley recommends (3-4 weeks) and stayed in contact with him even after the D was filed. She tells me she wishes she knew about Plan B. She tells me that she is sure she suffered from PTSD and still is not recovered even though the D was final a couple of years ago.



Look at what you said yourself:


I may not have my marriage, but I have my health and my sanity. You want to try recovering with a WS who is still in contact/doesn't implement EPs, you are signing up for a life of HELL. Your choice. But please do not knock Plan B when you haven't even tried it.

Hopefully you will soon be a Plan B convert!


Honestly it is amazing. Six months and I feel totally fantastic!

My bar for recovery has gotten higher and higher. WH would really need to impress me these days to come back into the marraige. And my divorce is pending. Thanks to the healing of Plan B it really will hurt less if it goes through.

Where couples have reconciled as a result of plan B - you know it was because the BS finally got TOUGH. and that's how I feel - tough. I honestly dont care now if he never comes back but if he does, he must impress me a whole lot.

Separation IS risky - there is a risk they may never come back. A forever Plan A is certain doom however. Eventually enough must be enough.

I appreciated every bit of time you have spent on me and my situation Melody. Without your unrelenting insistence on exposure I would never have done it. It is because of exposure that we have a tiny chance here. It is because of that that I perk up particularly when YOU reply.

However, once finding out about OW#2 I think some of the solutions presented here fail to address the root of the problem and instead present unrealistic scenarios that are not solutions at all.


Can you honestly tell me that forcing my husband to work from home is a solution to the problem of him being a serial cheater? Remove him from the possibility of communicating with other women in the workplace? That is so unrealistic. How is that even possible - I can't FORCE him to do that! I can demand it, sure, he will say no, and then I have to follow through on my threat and move out. Final outcome = divorce aka he didn't want to be with me anymore anyway because he didn't want to try that hard.

If looking for REALISTIC solutions and options here make this post stupid to you Melody, then so be it. It doesn't mean I am not serious about my marriage. Thank you for your help this far - it HAS been invaluable! I hate to lose your input but I guess we've reached a point where you delve into the unrealistically creative solutions that guarantee the above outcome and I am still trying to find realistic ones that MIGHT maybe help.

Hopefully there are others here who CAN offer REALISTIC solutions and are willing to continue to help me. I would really appreciate it and could certainly use the help. If not I am SOL.

So, if anyone is still willing to listen, I ask once again:
would writing to the OW's BH asking HIM to work on getting her out of the workplace be a REALISTIC and advisable course of action?

At least I can start to address THAT part of the problem perhaps a little sooner than waiting for the transfer.

At this point I have very little hope left going by what all of you are telling me here anyway. Because based on what is being said here it has been determined that my WH is:

-a serial cheater and serial cheaters can only be cured by not being anywhere near the opposite sex so they can't be tempted

-the ONLY way we are even at square one is once the work situation changes because only THEN can withdrawal begin and only after THAT can recovery begin

If I sit here and don't Plan A in the meantime, I can guarantee you nothing will get fixed.

But let me ask you this - lets say he quits his job tomorrow and starts working from home... and I am doing a kick azz Plan A what is to stop him from going down to the store and picking up an affair phone and continuing? NOTHING.

THAT is the point we are at here. There are no more options. Unless I move out.

PLEASE, someone explain to me how I have that wrong.

No. Don't do this. You have no control over what's going on in their house. Don't attempt to insert yourself into that.

Ok so Plan B is moving out and moving on with the added twist of "oh maybe he'll notice how awesome I am now and come back to me but if he doesn't by the time I realize he's not coming back I won't care any more because I have moved on."

Ok, I get that. That's one option, yes. But like I said, that ends in divorce.

I'm not talking about staying in Plan A forever. I'm talking about giving it another 3 - 4 weeks and once I catch them again -- which now seems inevitable going by what everyone is saying here because like I said, he's NOT going to agree to work from home and never deal with another woman again because that is unrealistic and it certainly wouldn't come to be in 3 - 4 weeks -- then at that point I move on to Plan B which = eventual divorce.

Once again, please explain (not directed at you indiegirl - just in general) how I have that wrong and how that means I am not serious about my marriage and how that is not the point that I am right now - out of other options?

What will you do after your three four weeks of Plan A?

Plan B?

Plan D?

Plan FU?

If you want to divorce him, just protect yourself and stop him from cake eating by going into B.

And why does Plan B ALWAYS end in divorce in your opinion?

It didnt for sexymamabear and herpapabear.....

Have you read surviving an affair? You dont seem to understand the concepts.

Affairs make waywards happy because you meet 3-5 top needs, the OW usually only meets one or two.

Hence when you go the WS is very unhappy about the loss of those needs you always met.

Marriage Builders has the best plans out there to give your marriage a shot at recovery. And MANY MANY marriages have been saved here and RECOVERED. Recovery doesn't just mean ending the affair, but a whole new way of living.

If you do this right and you end up with an MB marriage, all the OW in the world won't compare to you and will be a non-issue. You'll have a husband who is committed to you ONLY and you to him. It's not easy at first and it takes a lot of courage to try but it's worth it.

Also, if you do this right and you end up in plan B and possibly divorced, you will have recovered YOURSELF and your life will be better than you ever thought possible.

We've already told you the best way for a CHANCE at recovery yet you are choosing NOT to do this and trying to convince the choir why it won't work.

What's left? You stay in a horrible, abusive marriage with a cheater until he finally leave you or you walk out with an empty love bank. That's a painful and unnecessary way to handle your life, especially when you know now that there's another way.

I hope you get it before it too late.

Best of luck to you.

Im gonna give this one more shot.

Options while he refuses to change.

1) Stay in an abusive marriage where the conditons do not change

2) Leave the abusive marriage now because he refuses to change and you are worth more than that.


Which is it?

Thank you indiegirl for not giving up on me!


Lightbulb moment. Yes he is unrepentant. I think it's partly because that's how far I had pushed him away. He really did not care about me anymore. Well, he was very unrepentant, at least, until thursday night. Thursday night when I caught him meeting with her, he was almost in tears. And like I said he promised to give me everything I asked for, finally. It may have been the turning point.


The option was presented and quickly dismissed. He's not willing to make such drastic changes "over this". He admits that had it been a PA or even "more serious" he would immediately leave work. I understand that according to MB, that means I should leave.




We agree here. I think we are just disagreeing that he needs to work at home in order for us to have a chance.



Got it - this is what I am doing. I am getting tougher with him. I am preparing my Plan B while I Plan A for another few weeks. He knows that if there is anymore nonsense we are done. I don't care if I am in the middle of my c-section when I find out - we are DONE. (aka Plan B)


All of this is happening right now:
-he has agreed to total transparency
-the work situation will change as soon as it can (transfer - could take months - this is where everything fails, I know)
-he has agreed to NO CONTACT and total honesty
-he has recommitted to working on us and our family
-he will account for all his time

The additional thing working my favor now that was not there before though is exposure. Exposure to friends and family but exposure to the OWH in particular.

In the meantime I will have to continue checking up on him to feel safe because I do not feel connected to him anymore. Both because of what I have done and what he has done so there is no way for him to make me feel safe in this marriage right now.

I will do Plan B.



I don't want to divorce him. But I will if he does nothing but continue to abuse me. I deserve better than that.




Because if you haven't properly shown him what he'd be missing out on (Plan A) and given enough time for him to fall back in love, Plan B just means he gets to continue his affair(s) and decide that life is better without you anyway. If he truly feels that way, fine.

I will read their story.


I have not, but I will. I think you get by now that I just have simply lost all faith and almost all hope in my WH and that is why I am doubtful that anything will work. I shouldn't knock the concepts. They probably do work for WS's who actually want their marriages to work. I may just have to face the fact that my WH deep down does NOT want us to work.



I don't think I was doing a very good job of meeting any of his needs for a long time. Too long. The ones I was meeting were at a bare minimum. Too many withdrawals. Huge negative balance by the time I found out about the EA. KWIM?

Thank you for your input. I think I do get it. I just disagree that him working from home is the only solution. If I am wrong then we will end up divorced but I won't stay in an abusive marriage - I know that's not better for my kids. I don't think that he gets that I'm serious about that part right now which is why I think we will eventually end up in Plan B. Maybe Plan B will work but I don't have much hope there.

I understand that these plans are meant to help put us in recovery. I guess I'm just hoping that we can get into recovery without the working from home thing because it's drastic and he's not going to do it. I understand that everyone here disagrees that that is even possible. It is because of that that I am so discouraged about this working but I have to give it one last shot with me doing Plan A. Does that make sense? Am I understanding correctly that most of you feel I should Plan B right now until he chooses to work from home?

He's not refusing to change anymore. He's just not going to work from home and he can't leave the current work situation immediately. It will take time. If the conditions do not change I will leave.

So basically this is the plan and the way I expect it to go right now:

1 - I will re-start a very good Plan A for about 3 - 4 weeks, during which time I will continue to monitor him.
2 - He has promised NC and total transparency and honesty
3 - I expect him to fail at the NC before 3 - 4 weeks is up because they still work together
4 - At that point I will be about 35 weeks pregnant and almost ready to deliver. I can move out - he won't move out, he's made that clear. SO... I will tell him we are done and that I am moving out as soon as I am recovered from my c-section.

The other option is that if he fails at NC and I have not yet delivered I can move out then.

Either way, unfortunately, I think I am seeing that he is feeling very cushy in the fact that he thinks I won't pull the trigger on moving out or anything like that while I am just a few short weeks away from delivering. So what that means is that he is putting me in the position where I am going to have to do it and will probably end up moving out of my house with a 3 week old. And believe me, I've had it. I WILL do it.

I believe the 'work at home' idea originally came from YOU, did it not? You were advised that he needed to leave that job in order to get away from OW, and you responded that there would just be another OW at any other workplace.

Your WH doesn't have to live on an island in order to remain faithful. He has to understand the importance of living a certain way in order to protect his marriage. We're trying to explain the you what that way is. The first step is to separate the adulterers and stop the affair. That's why you're being advised to demand that he quit that job.

It is comments like this that make me question how serious you really are. No one ever told you that working from home is the "ONLY SOLUTION" but that a serial cheater had to radically change his environment in order to stop cheating. Saying that the ONLY SOLUTION is for him to work at home is your own ridiculous [and snotty] extrapolation. Taking valid suggestions and twisting them to a ridiculous extreme is insulting and aggravating to people who are taking the time and effort to help you. We don't have to help you, after all.

We have several recovered marriages on this board where one spouse was a serial cheater and they don't work from home. Two did retire, but several others changed occupations where they work with their own spouse all day or arranged to work with only men. But one has to brainstorm to find solutions.

I realize that you understand that your husband would rather leave you than make any real changes. That is why posters are recommending Plan B. He won't change, but the point with all the above is that your husband won't EVER be motivated to change if you don't tell him your conditions. Before you go into Plan B, you need tell him what it will take to recover your marriage.

As far as staying together for the kids, living with a serial cheater will lead to divorce and possibly a nervous breakdown. This is why Dr Harley only recommends staying in Plan A for 3 to 4 weeks.

But you need to first get the book, Surviving an Affair so you understand what you are dealing with. They sell it in most bookstores or you can buy it used off amazon.com.

Yes, it came from HER, not the board. That is insulting to the people who are trying to help her and explains why I said we are more serious than her.

Seriously?????

Why in the world are you *restarting* Plan A? That is Plan PiecesofMe. Not Plan A.

Most likely you will have a harder and harder time preventing DJs and AOs, especially since you are 35 weeks pregnant.

It makes NO sense AT ALL to delay moving to Plan B to the time that you are set to deliver. NO SENSE. Unless you are not serious about Plan B.


Are you thinking once he sees the baby he will be more likely to "do the right thing"?

Moving with a 3-week-old and you are 35 weeks pregnant, so you are actually planning on Plan A for another 8 weeks? Right?

How can you possibly think you can go on this way for another 8 weeks?

And that's to say IF you could possibly have the emotional energy and strength to execute Plan B with a newborn baby after giving birth?

Why not actually demand that your H go NC now?

I am not understanding this AT ALL.

The plans take this into account. Most of us were like this! Thats what the 3-4 week Plan A is for. To show that in the future you will be willing to meet his needs if he agrees to recovery conditions.

As others have said, another two months of Plan A will drive you loco and be harmful to your health. You will definitely snap and ruin your Plan A with AOs and DJs. It is better to give him the Plan B letter and leave him with the impression that you WILL meet his needs and WILL NOT love bust.

A short Plan A where you are on form, work it like a rock star and disappear with a whisper and a kiss is far preferable to a drawn out Plan A which makes you look desperate and unwilling to make him face consequences.

If you are intent on doing this crazy thing at least get your preparations for Plan B sorted out NOW.

Click the link in my siggy for step by step advice.

I would highly recommend that you have it worked out so that if you do find yourself losing it, you can exit quickly without ruining your Plan A efforts, or indeed your health.

Where are you planning to go?
Have you spoken to an attorney and educated yourself about spousal support and child support?

Boy or girl?

Are your parents close?
Which grandparents are closest to the kids?

Just FYI .... the following is complete bullcrap

No No NO NO

He is unrepentant because he is descending morally and spiritually.

A person who is UNrepentant when caught cheating on their PREGNANT wife is currently not capable of discerning right from wrong.


Your WH's heart has hardened as a result of his sin.
Not because of you.

A PREGNANT Plan A'er needs to amp up the self-pampering part of Plan A. Are you doing that?

Advice:

Plan A for now.
But Plan B as soon as you can manage it.

A pregnant Plan A'er with a jerk-WH worries me.

I will buy the book because I do feel I am missing some things.

I am sorry if I misunderstood the suggestions or lashed out, my intention was not to waste people's time or insult but to point out that I felt some solutions were extreme. I don't recall who brought up working from home and I'm not going to go back to check, I get the point. Melody, thank you for coming back and replying.

That deception/hardening/destruction thing worries and upsets me a lot. I do feel he has hardened significantly and I think it's gotten worse with exposure.

Yes Pepperband...he really is being a jerk right now. I don't know who he is. And I've never felt worse in my life. I'm not the type to wallow in self pity, I'm NOT the type to put up with any bull. With every new discovery, I am losing a bit of myself. I feel abused, disrespected, unloved, and utterly worthless. But I refuse to feel that way for long - it's not me. I will pick myself up off the ground within a few days.

I have my Dad here but he is an alcoholic, I can't live with him. I can only count on his wife to help sometimes. Everyone else is out of state. I have almost no help here but I'm a big girl and I make money. I can take care of myself. I just can't bear to leave my two boys behind. But I will find a way to do it all.

Oh yes!



It gets worse with time. We are really worried about you, hon.



Have you considered simply packing his bags and leaving them on the step with the plan B letter, having changed the locks?

I just kicked mine out, even though legally Im not supposed to change the locks. With a loving letter showing him the way back, it wasnt my fault he was out of a home now was it?

Yes I've considered packing his bags. I've also considered going to my Mom's in FL for several days.

I am well versed in family law here as is he...just changing the locks would probably cause a huge issue.

Being pregnant really limits the things I really want to do where as normally I would just do them.

Right now I am torn between starting to work on us falling back in love and just kind of checking out emotionally. I felt that the other day when I was kind of checked out, he seemed more responsive. I feel like when I try - it's forced and he is resistant and it becomes so much more clear how not in love with me he is. I feel like so many things in this process have only made me so much less attractive to him... I almost feel like being cold and distant is better.

That isnt unusual. We all felt like that. I did. Thats why I like the plans so much. You put the emotion to one side and just check off the plan stages.



That is very typical wayward behaviour. When you are nice they DO like it but it makes them feel all sorts of guilt so they pull away. He has also spent time demonising you to excuse his behaviour in his mind, so he doenst like you to undo his image of you as unfeeling. You want him uncomfortable - that means its working. Guilt is your friend. As long as hes guilty, the hardening process, which is based upon demonising you, is kept at bay.

When you pull away and are 'cold' - they get a bit scared. They know they need you meeting some needs and they want to keep you around - but not so close as to feel the guilt. This is why their behaviour veers around so much.

Dont let him yo-yo you around. Waywards excel at that. Dont base your actions on his reactions. Relentlessly Plan A him, whatever his mood. SHOW him you are not cold and unfeeling. Show him he has been lying to himself. - his guilt is his own problem, you wont let up showing him how amazing you are - the whole time warning him he is about to lose the good stuff.

And then Plan B him. He wont be able to get back into your life without agreeing to ALL the conditions for recovery.

Hmm...interesting. So true about the demonizing... to hear him describe me you would think I had been exactly that, a demon, for 3 years. He's definitely uncomfortable right now. Yesterday was our shower for this baby. Only my best friend and her husband knew and he was so angry the day before about what "I" had done to him by telling her (my best friend) but he went anyway and faced them. He was definitely uncomfortable then and for the rest of the day but it didn't feel like a good thing. Was that a good thing? I didn't know quite what to do but I knew I wasn't supposed to shield him from the consequences of his actions.

So coming up he's got a lot of work outside of work to do (we both run businesses in addition to our day jobs). His side business often requires that he works after work til about 7-8pm. Right now I am of course VERY suspicious of these jobs. He could easily say I'm going to xyz, and meet OW AT xyz so tracking wouldn't even make a difference. The reason he could potentially meet OW at these locations is because this is after hours work at offices so no one or very few people are usually around. No one would notice if he sat in the parking lot with her for an hour before or after the job that told me would take 2 hours but actually only took 1 hour. KWIM?

So, in the interest of acting very Plan A-ish... do I just act like none of it bothers me and not ask too many questions? Or continue to hold him accountable for his time and whereabouts very strictly?

I'm inclined to not pay it much attention to be honest. Me being all needy for re-assurance and constantly checking up on him sounds very unattractive to me and not something I want to be anyway.

What have you read about this program? What books, articles, etc? I am curious about where you got the idea that Plan A meant sitting there and acting like nothing bothers you?

I read all of this:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

And this

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5525_qa.html

And everything about the basic concepts, love busters, radical honesty, joint agreement, and so on.

The reason why I think I should act like none of it bothers me is because from my understanding, the point of Plan A is show the WS what he can expect if he stays in the marriage, that you are a fabulous person to be with, what he'd be missing out on if he leaves, and to basically help restore some of the love that went away. I understand that Plan A alone is not meant to make WS fall back in love with you.

Therefore, if I am this needy, clingy, untrusting, insecure, controlling and suffocating woman - why would he want to come back to that? You know - calling him to make sure he is where he says he is, calling to see why he is running late (he is usually very good about this on his own which is why I perked right up when he wasn't last week) asking where he is going and how long he will be, etc etc.

He freely volunteers all this information and always did in the past. He only got defensive about it when he WAS talking to this OW. But then...from what I discovered last week is that he can still find ways to squeeze in seeing her without actually lying to me about his whereabouts or even affecting the time difference THAT much (of course it WAS enough for me to question it and get suspicious last week and of course catch them).

So... anyway, I feel that that type of behavior is a LB. No?

PS Melody - I am ordering the book today =)

Acting like you feel something you do not would violate radical honesty, wouldn't it?

Telling your spouse "It bothers me when you ... " is definitely not a love buster. It is radically honest communication. This is in general, not just in the case of an affair. The case of an affair is one exception where Dr. Harley feels it is appropriate to rise to the level of a demand.

True, but of course everything is going to bother me right now. I have ZERO trust in him. So either I actually stop caring or I pretend not to.

Ok. That's good to know. But the sentence coming out of my mouth right now would be:

"It bothers me when you are not with me because I feel I can't trust you at all unless you are."

Not good. It's 100% true, but not good.

Pretending like something does not bother you is not part of Plan A. Plan A only means that you tell your spouse you would be willing to meet his needs in the future if he ends his affair and commits to the marriage. The Marriage Builders program of recovery would require that he account for ALL of his time and not be away from you at night. We call that extraoridinary precautions.


But you don't trust him. That would be silly to trust an untrustworthy person. So there is no reason to pretend like you trust him. You don't!

It is not "clingy and controlling" to expect that your spouse tell you where he is at all times - and account for that time. That is a basic expectation of any spouse. I know where my spouse is at all times, and he knows where I am at all times. That is how people behave in a stable marriage.

With your husband, he is so untrustworthy that he can't be trusted out of your sight. In that case, I would make plans to go WITH him on his business tonight.

Your husband should understand that if he wants to stay married to you, that being apart at night will not DO. He has to account for all of his time. THAT is what the future holds for him.

You don't lure a serial cheater into a marriage by promising to ENABLE them; you promise that any future with you will be one of holding him ACCOUNTABLE.

If you were with him, none of this would be neccessary. If he never ran late, none of this would be neccessary. If you knew EXACTLY where he was, this wouldn't be neccessary. See what I mean? You shouldn't be put in the position to do any of this if he were following extraordinary precautions.

If my H were a serial cheater who was so sneaky that he met women in parking lots to get in a 20 minute quicky, I would be with him 24/7. You should be with him at every opportunity rather than playing pretend games. Your husband is not trustworthy and it doesn't help you one bit to pretend like he is.

If he says "YOU DON'T TRUST ME!!" Agree with him!

There are some concepts here that are designed to be used in a RECOVERED marriage. Radical Honesty is one of them, also the Policy of Joint Agreement, etc.

Right now, you cannot tell everything (Honey, I put a keylogger on the computer, or a Voice recorder in your car...)

Right now you are at war against the affair. So you need to employ all tactics necessary to kill the affair.

Plan A is part of that strategy. Be your best self.
But only to a point -- Plan A to an undeserving unrepentent still-active wayward will drain your lovebank QUICKLY.

Sounds like your husband is TALKING a good game so far -- what actions are backing up his words?

This is all a reaction to his untrustworthy behavior. It is much easier to change behavior than it is REACTIONS. So if you want this to change, then his behavior needs to change. That is where I would focus. You are insecure and untrustworthy for a good reason...

- He gave me all passwords and access to phone records, etc.

- He has started to show me honesty by going into greater details telling me about the EA. We had a long talk last night and he told me lots of things I did not enjoy hearing (all the details of how the affair developed, the extent of his feelings for her, the lack of feelings for me, etc etc) He told me things I didn't know about other women where there have been improper boundaries (no affairs, but inappropriate flirtations, etc)

- He tells me where he is going, how long he will be, why he is going there, etc. And I KNOW he IS going there but I don't trust that that is the ONLY place he is going or how long it should really take.

For example - today he was supposed to go do a job after work. He prepped and loaded all the equipment necessary for the job in his car. He planned to leave his day job about 1/2 hr early to complete this job. This is new. He has NEVER done that before. It's always right after work and he is home by 8pm the latest and we always have dinner together. For this job he is planning to leave 1/2 hour early AND still it will take him until 7 or 8pm he says. Could be true, might not be true.

Then I get a phone call just a few minutes ago. Today's job will be rescheduled for tomorrow and replaced with a different job (I have evidence of this 2nd job via text messages that I intercepted). Or he may have nothing at all going on after work today. It's the nature of his business though.

My questions right now are:
-Where is job#2? he's been to this client before but I don't know the location. I didn't ask because I didn't want to seem overbearing but I can ask later.
-I DID ask - how long will it take on job #2 if you go today?

Answer: I don't know.

Is that a legitimate answer - absolutely. Depending on the problem it could take 5 minutes or 3 hours. He won't know until he gets there and diagnoses the problem.

This is what I have to deal with. Yes, there is lots of room to cheat in the lives we lead...but then again we work so much that sometimes there really isn't. We used to joke with each other that neither one of us would ever cheat simply because we never had the time. Ha freaking ha.

I can't go with him. I have two children to pick up from school & daycare and take care of. Remember I have very little help here. It's not like I can ask my alcoholic dad to pick them up for me so I can go with WH.

Yes I can and am tracking him though. So I will know after the fact if he went somewhere OTHER than where he was supposed to be BUT I can never know (unless I hire a PI) if he was not with her or some OW the entire time.

And yes, I've considered hiring a PI. I decided against it because I can do my own spying and save some money that I may need for moving out. If he continues to be as sloppy as he is anyway, it won't be hard to catch him again and I'll save myself a small fortune.

[quote = MelodyLane]
If he says "YOU DON'T TRUST ME!!" Agree with him!
[/quote]

Yes, we've had this exchange =)

Snooping is ALWAYS exempt from radical honesty as far as I know. Even into recovery...

What are your requirements for staying in this marriage?

What extraordinary precautions do you think your WH would need to implement in order to affair proof your M?

Good questions.

Requirements for staying in the marriage:
- end all contact with OW#1
- be remorseful about it (for more than 60 mins) for f***'s sake
- end all inappropriate/non-professional contact with women that are not me

Extraordinary precautions to affair proof:
- simply hold himself to the same high standards he was holding me:
- NO friends of the opposite sex that are anything more than barely acquaintances
- NO unprofessional email exchanges with the opposite sex at work
- change his phone number so all the hoochie mamas that have it now no longer have it and STOP giving it out to women
- voluntarily tell me all of his whereabouts, schedule, plans etc and check in while he is there by phone until I can rebuild trust (he already does this but I feel like he's more covering his tracks *sometimes*)

In general:

- make a greater effort to spend more time together doing recreational things that we both enjoy to keep the love there; that means hiring sitters more often, more date nights out

- have sex more often (3 x per week minimum)

Instead of writing long, complicated posts about why you can't do something, how about spending that time finding a way TO DO it? For example, are there any other adults in your town? In my town we have other adults who can be hired to pick up children from daycare and take care of them. Being with your husband is much more important than anything else in your life right now.

In order to recover you need to create an integrated lifestyle that makes it impossible for him to cheat. And if you can't go with them, then he needs to stay home and schedule it for a time when you CAN go. But you shouldn't sit at home waiting and wondering what he is doing. That is going to drive you crazy.

Find a way to make it impossible for him to cheat instead of constantly coming up with reasons why you CAN'T do something.

I hear ya Melody. I have thought of ways, you are right, it's not impossible I just think it's unfair to my kids. I don't see them for 9 hours and then to have a stranger pick them up after-after school and watch them for another 3 hrs just so my husband doesn't cheat and I keep my sanity seems...well you know.

But I will try to think of something - rescheduling, he could hire someone temporarily, etc. because yes I was going crazy waiting tonight.

Today I found myself wishing there was a switch and I could just turn it all off.

All I will add to the excellent advce is that a fabulous person insists on being treated well. Cool, calm, loving - but most certainly FIRM.

It is not needy or controlling to say: 'Do not hurt me, Do not be thoughtless, make me feel safe with you'.

It is needy to be AFRAID of saying such a thing. Plan A empowers you to do so. You take care of his needs - but you say clearly that you will expect yours met at some point,

I know because I have been where you are now. Unable to ask for basic care from my spouse.

It is because you have been putting up with such abusive behaviour for so long that you are losing yor own confidence. Plan A will need to end for you soon for your own wellbeing. You will rediscover yourself in Plan B. Plan B is like - WOW! Guess what, I am still incredible! Why did I believe him when he said I was not?

What is unfair for your children is for their parents marriage to fail. But if that doesn't work, then I would suggest he give up his second job. It is not worth your marriage. I would find a WAY around this that protects your marriage FIRST. THAT is in your children's best interest.

How are you doing PoM? Stay strong, remember

Hi Indiegirl - thanks for checking on me...

I wanted to take a break from posting but I'm here as you can see lol




This struck a cord with me. Something has clicked and I feel stronger today. Gotta stay on THIS track



I totally agree.

I will post how last night and today went later on... Thank you so much for all your input and help. I'm off to search more about Plan Aing.

Its great isnt it? Like learning to ride a bike without training wheels or how to put on mascara without poking yourself in the eye. One day you just get it. The whole time you were so close to the right balance - and yet so far.

YUP! It is!!


Ok so I think I need him to confess to Tues and Wed night's meetings. I literally am losing sleep over it. Something struck me last night at 2am...tues was when I found out about OW#2...he may very well be telling the truth and did NOT meet up with OW#1 - maybe he met up with OW#2!!!

Anyway, I have the hard evidence but I don't want to give away how I know he was there. How do I get him to confess? I tried telling him I had a friend follow him but he's not buying it. Should I press that angle?

Where we are right now:
-Monday he came home and I was a wreck b/c the tracker wasn't working. He was being nice...we talked alot because HE brought it up which is never the way it goes. BUT...all he did was minimize like crazy again. I stayed very calm and just listened and explained firmly that I don't care how much he wanted to minimize it - it hurt me very badly and he had to understand that. He blew off all his slip ups as "not counting" except for Thurs night when I caught him in the parking lot.

- he continued to promise that it would never happen again, admitted to me that he thought about going physical with her but wouldn't do it because of "my condition" and that he told her that too.

I felt like I was being given tons of BS the entire time and I just sat there trying to figure out why.

Tues - he called me about a dozen times - all day checking in on me, letting me know exactly where he was going and what he was doing. For his after work job he told me all the details, called me and stayed on the phone with me while he was driving there until he got there. Called right when he was done and came straight home.

Hes a wayward. Everything out of his mouth is guaranteed to be nonsense. I am not sure why you are having little chats with him at all as all you will get is BS. I would write out the conditions for recovery - the most important one being to begin NC with OW



As he is a serial cheat I would add in MB counselling and the condition he gets a job which does not bring him into any contact with women

Its a yes or no conversation. You dont sit down and talk it out with him - you tell him what will happen if he does not get in line with your condtions. Divorce, a nasty one.

If you get fog babble like he wont go phsyical because of 'your condition' reverse fog babble with 'yes it is very wrong, and compeltely disgusting for people in the married condition to commit adultery. I am glad you see that now.'

Forgive me for forgetting but where did you get up to with exposure and OWH? Do you have a way to communicate with him so both of you can keep an eye on the APs? Exposure to the workplace done?

Dont expect conversations to make sense.

Do not get drips and drabs of confessions for him - you can get the full story from the poly and will not accept any 'stories' or 'promises'

Do not accept part-tme recovery - like his being transparant one Tuesday, to mean the same as full time recovery - which would see him meet ALL the conditions for recovery as you have outlined.

Tell him that you know. You don't need to tell him HOW you know, just that you do. Describe exactly how his car was parked, or how close it was to a fire hydrant, or whatever you can think of that will drive home the point that you know.

If he still balks and tries to lie, ask him if he would be willing to take a polygraph test.

I wasn't looking to talk on Monday night. He was the one babbling and yes it was all fog babble. I just kind of sat there listening to it all and knowing it babble. You are right, none of it made sense.

All of my conditions have been clearly outlined. At the end of his fog babble on Monday night I kind of ignored all the BS and said something like "Yeah well, back to what the point is here - the only way this is going to work is if x,y, and z"

Exposure: I can contact OWH whenever I want but I have chosen not to for the time being. I exposed in the workplace weeks ago (as far as I can without getting myself in deep [censored]) Exposed to targeted family and friends.

As for knowing his whereabouts those two nights - I did tell him I just *knew*...he denies, denies, denies. But I can tell he's worried. He keeps bringing it up when I don't. He tries to reverse it on me - yesterday I went to the gym during lunch as I always do and he called me cause I got back late and interrogated me and told me he "knew" I WASN'T at the gym. Trying to play games.

I don't have many other details other than he was at that location for a brief period of time those two evenings. Maybe if I try to reconstruct timelines I can get something...

Polygraph...he laughs and says sure he'll take one. He claims he knows how to beat a polygraph and has done so in the past. Yes folks, this is what we are dealing with here.

Is there anyway to know if he is in withdrawal? I noticed when there was no contact for days at a time he would do searches on his computer for things like "heartbreak songs". What I see now is him trying harder with me but I don't see signs of withdrawal. I see he is a little uncomfortable with the stronger me.

When empathy ought to be in play .... this is the crap your WH pulls.
Sad.


He's not.
He's in "I can outsmart you" mode.

Question:

When was the last time WH showed interest/caring in your emotional well-being?

He's lying.

LINK - Never trust words from a wayward's lips

They lie.

I know. I know. I know.

BUT I blame myself for Tues & Wed night. I know I shouldn't but I do. I didn't expose properly, pushed them underground, forced the in person meetings. It probably didn't go physical until then. Now I am positive it did.

Tues was the first meeting like that (of course that I know of) - wednesday morning he was soooo remorseful and repentant and calling himself a monster,etc. Yet wednesday night tracking shows he was there again. And then again on Thurs when I caught him.

This is going to eat me up. He has to confess. I don't want to give away my snooping sources though. I can't move forward without knowing what I'm moving forward from.

What if I send him an email so he can't try to manipulate me into giving up my sources of info?

I think I'm going to schedule a polygraph.

Where does any of this address the problem? He still works with the OW. He still has a job and a lifestyle that enables him to have affairs. I am confused. He still works with TWO OW and he still has the type of job where he is free to chase women.

Nothing will change............until that changes.

And what do you mean by exposure to the OWH? You already did that.... So what would you be exposing to him?

You need to call the OWH up today and give him your evidence.

Stop playing games, POM, and get serious. Tell your husband you know and STOP ASKING HIM. WHO CARES if your husband confesses? You don't need the confession of a liar to know the truth. Playing cat and mouse games is WEAK. You can't afford to be weak. You have to be strong decisive and straightforward.

Expose the affair to the OWH, expose the affair to your workplace, and tell your husband he has to leave that job. In order to stay married to you he is going to have to find a job where he is not working around women.

The above is not within your scope of power/control.
He's not going to confess.
If he does confess, it will be in a very minimal way. Admit to one thing in order to deny something else.

You need to concentrate your efforts on things which you have the power/control to do.
Such as .......

Are you preparing for Plan B?

That is irrational. You are so used to being gaslighted that this seems rational to you. Exposing an affair does not make someone commit adultery. If your H was faithful, nothing could push him to be an adulterer.

Yes. That is what I am using this "calm" time for. Getting my ducks in a row.



Because he has conceded that if it HAD gone physical HE WOULD make the job change. So the fact that he's keeping up the game that it never went physical means he gets to stay where he is, working with her.

Is it possible - please hear me out - that Thursday night and me exposing to the OWH WAS the turning point and NOW it's really done?

I've seen alot of people on here that knew about a WS's EA then months later found out it was a PA because the WS confesses. How does that happen? After being in recovery for awhile and the guilt brings it out?

Done?
Exactly what do you mean?

Right after D day, my H knew he was caught in an EA and thought he could get away with "It was only an EA." He would have said at the time "I was trying to spare you more pain." <~~~ They ALL say that.

I would say "You're lying again."
Then, I'd wait.
He'd talk some more crap ... I'd repeat "Stop lying."

The revealing was sort of in this sequence:

We're just friends.
We talked about getting physical but never did.
We just kissed.
We petted.
We had intercourse one time.
We had intercourse.
She never gave me oral.
She gave me oral.
I never gave her oral.
I gave her oral.
etc etc etc

Does the guilt bring out the truth?
I don't think so.
I think exhaustion and fatigue brings out the truth.
They can't keep their lies in order.

You ask about being in recovery bringing out the truth .... If you do not know the truth, you are NOT in recovery.
It's that simple.

This is crazy talk. I don't even know where to start. We are telling you how to recover and you are not listening.

Call up the OWH and tell him about the affair. Then tell your H has to leave the job. Stop asking him if he is having an affair and tell him you know. No one cares if a liar confesses the truth. You already know the truth.

call his bluff and do it.

He cannot beat it.

You need to do some research and find a good poly tech. Find one that it certified with the state, or nationaly. One with lots of experience in the area of infidellity.

Here in Texas it cost about $150, so it is well worth the money.

The tech we used asked my FWH, before the test, if he had researched information on how to beat a polygraph, or if he thinks it is possible to beat a poly. He did this so my H would "be thinking" about it.....

It's a lot of "psychological" conditioning before the test. The tech asked all the questions before he ever hooked him up, with me in the room.

Your WH may have taken a poly for a job requirement, this is completely different. Maybe he could beat that one, but not one like you are requesting.

It took me 5 months to get up the nerve to do it. My FWH trickle truthed the whole time, right up to the day of the test. He even confessed some things sitting in the chair right before the test!

Everything your WH is saying is typical. We have all heard it before. Save yourself the mental anquish and just do the test.

Please, show us the draft of your Plan B letter.
Often the first draft is better after some tweaking.

Haven't gotten to the letter yet. Have started drafting it in my head.

Melody - I HAVE exposed to the OWH. I have exposed at work to the extent that I can without risking my own job.

I was talking over the legal issues today with informed people today. I cannot physically lock him out of the house. Like I said, this is a VERY delicate work situation, highly political, law enforcement related. I cannot give more specifics. Suffice it to say that due to our jobs we both know our way around the family courts VERY well. If I play the system, he knows how to play it too. If I call in my favors, he's got his that he can call in. I have to be one step ahead of him there and that takes time to work out.

Anyway, I've been advised by an attorney not to leave the house or remove the children from the house. It will cause me huge problems with custody later on if it goes there. So that's out. I am in a serious pickle with Plan B that I am trying to figure out how to work out. Again, has to do with where we work and our positions. Even the attorney said I am stuck between a rock and hard place and I have to be VERY careful with my next move. WH knows that. I am very limited in what I can do.

I have very few options in terms of the living situation EVEN if I file for divorce.

Why have you chosen NOT to utilize your best exposure target? OWH needs to know that this has gone physical and that his wife may become pregnant by your husband. He's not in withdrawal if there is any contact. So you can be sure that he is currently NOT in withdrawal.

Lets see what your head has so far.

Give it up.

Exactly which 'ducks' of Plan B have you done?

This makes no sense. I've never heard of a job that has the power to force two divorced people to live together. Which, of course, is where you're headed if you continue on your current path.

Have you retained an attorney? I mean one who is actually worth his salt and who isn't just giving free advice to a friend?

Exactly my sentiments, Bliss.

I do know the truth. I know he met with either her or OW#2 on Tues and Wed night. I assume he has had at least one physical affair at this point with at least one of these two women if not both. What more do I need to know? That it was intercourse? Why? I got tested anyway. I may just as well assume it was because he will NEVER admit it so other than a polygraph I have nothing. And once the polygraph says yes, I only have confirmation of what I already assume. So I have to move forward at this point with the assumption that:

the affair has gone physical with OW#1 and/or OW#2


As you all have said, he will probably never admit it. So I have to set forth new conditions and extraordinary precautions that must be taken in order to make me feel safe in the marriage and prevent these things from happening again. I can't get him to agree to those things with either going into Plan B or the polygraph.

Sorry if it seems like I went in a circle here. Clarity and a little more control over my emotions has only come to me very recently. Remember that I am pregnant and therefore very hormonal and emotional.

...and very deserving of a husband who will cherish you and treat you like a princess. Instead of one who wants to play "gotcha" games and hide his true self from you.

Sadly, POM, I think you have the type of wayward that needs to really start feeling some consequences. To me, from what you write, he just oozes smugness.

That is a particularly disturbing quality in a wayward.

From much earlier in this thread. I cannot agree with the above more.

Unless your WH has a complete change of heart, he IS going to keep hurting you.

He is a deceiver, manipulator and gaslighter and I don't see any indication that he is going to change. Like Mr Wondering indicates, I think Plan B may be your only chance.

Plan B is NOT easy, but MANY MANY posters have done it and so can you, if you were really commited to it.

If you want Plan B help, I will come back and help you.

You do not know the whole truth. You know what little bits he is giving you.




O&H is one of your EP's. If he will not tell you the truth, then he is NOT following the EP's that require him to stay in the marriage.

1. Make out your list of questions regarding the A's that you want to know.

2. tell him he has to be O&H (one of the EP's) for you to feel safe.

3. tell him there are consequences for lying. If he is lying (proven through poly) then you go to plan B or file.

We know that, sweetie. No one is beating you up - our concern is that a schmuck adulterous husband is mistreating his poor, hormonal pregnant wife! The advice we're giving you is as members of your tag-team - we know your emotions can sometimes scatter when you're pregnant and we're ready to do the clear-thinking for you. That's why we're trying to earnestly tell you what you need to do to ensure your best chance at saving your M.

I suspect your little mister is going to dodge the truth until he sees there's no out-running it. I would be ready to set up a poly, and make one of your conditions be that he agrees to future polys at a moment's notice.

Thank you everyone for your continued input and help. I don't know where I'd be without your input right now but it would be in a much worse place for sure with no hope in sight.

Anyway... I just needed a break from all the intensity of emotions.

To answer some questions:

When I said I knew the truth I meant I knew by my hard evidence, not by what he tells me. I know not to believe a word he says. Yes, he's a liar and I know by the way he grabbed my face and looked into my eyes and very firmly said "IT NEVER WENT PHYSICAL!" that it absolutely did. Because he did the EXACT same thing 3 months ago when (before D-Day) I flat out asked him if there was someone else. That was as good as a confession to me. Now...polygraph? That's just how much detail do I want, and I don't want any. I've decided to move on with the assumption that it was physical, they probably slept together, and I've therefore been tested for STDs. Do I want to know how many times they did it and what motel they went to? NO. I've made it clear to him that I do not believe his lie that it didn't go physical.

I also confronted him about OW#2 (no details of what I knew) and told him to cut it off, whatever the hell it was with no explanation to her or anything else. I told him if I ever found out he was in communication with her again it was as good as if it was with OW#1 and we are done.

I got very little resistance to that. Not sure what that means but whatever.

As far as Plan B - changing the locks might work on some WS's that have no idea of their rights but suffice it to say that due to our highly political, law enforcement related jobs, we have access to all the family law info we need (and just because it's free doesn't mean it's incorrect). Its illegal to change the locks, I cannot kick him out like that. I know the steps I'd have to take and unfortunately that's not one them. An attorney has also advised me that I should not leave the home. If I can get him to agree to leave, great, if not I have to file.

So THAT will have to be my plan B. I will try to get him to leave but I know he won't. He's already made that clear. I can either get him to move out of the bedroom or I will and take the spare room. He'll get his letters and then I have to wait until I can physically leave or have the court remove him.

And while I agree that he oozes smugness and that he may only hit rock bottom when he has to spend the night in someone's basement - that's not going to happen here - he knows his rights and he will exercise them. Hitting bottom for him will be me filing.

That said... he has shown a lot of big improvements. Not a total change of heart like is going to be required but a lot of improvement. Me catching them that night and exposing to the OWH immediately what I had found was a big turning point. That much I know.

Total transparency, like I said. Forthcoming with all information about his whereabouts. He calls me dozens of times a day to let me know what's going on, where he is, etc. On Friday he was a minute late leaving work and called me, and stayed on the phone with me so that I knew he was actually leaving when he said he would. And lots more similar things...voluntarily.

So the past three or four days have been ok. But... what's missing is still repentance and remorse... not entirely, there is some there, just not as much as I would think there should be. Am I expecting too much? All I'm asking for is to feel like he cares about my feelings in this but I attribute his lack of care to the fact that he is not in love with me right now.

Also his willingness to spend the time required (15+ hours per week) is not there. I'm still getting the whole "back off a little" crap. He doesn't get that I am so done here that "back off a little" is THISCLOSE to getting him an answer of "f***off, I'm going to file".

It's not that we don't spend the time together, it's that it's not doing the things we should be doing - making an effort to reconnect. Watching TV on separate couches is NOT reconnecting.

Also - when does the horrible stuff (D-day, the words in the emails, finding his car in the parking lot, etc ) stop replaying over and over in your head? Is it better to just let it play out over and over again to desensitize myself to it or try to get my mind off of it by doing other things?

That is not Plan B. That is Plan "C", [for compromise] which is much more likely to lead to divorce. It completely defeats the purpose of Plan B and makes the situation worse. Start off by asking him to leave. Over and over again. If he won't do that, then file for divorce and get him legally removed. Once he is out, THEN you can go into Plan B.

A half-baked Plan B is worse than none at all. If you can't do a proper Plan B, don't harm yourself by attempting your version of it.

I'm sure he's quite happy. He's got you right where he wants you and his world's looking pretty rosy.

He's not remorseful because he doesn't think he's done anything wrong. And you're tacitly agreeing with him by showing him for there are no consequences for his behavior.

POM, it's very clear that you have no intention of following the plans here, and I'm sorry for that. I won't post to your thread again because I'd be beating my head against a wall and there are too many others coming here daily who will use the help. I don't want to be mean, but I don't want to waste your time either. You'd be wasting your time reading my posts if you're not interested in following the plans.

Good luck.

That isnt even remotely close to Plan B. Plan B means separating homes, never seeing each other in any way, no communicating in any way. People arent even allowed to tell me things about my WH, I have no idea what's going on in his life or even where he is living. Moving into the spare room is totally inadequate. Wait until you can Plan B before you attempt it.

If legal advice says you have to file first, then file. Concentrate on getting your ducks in a row for Plan B.

I understand that the MB path to recovery is very straight and narrow so I'm trying to figure out where I am and how to proceed at this point and if I can even do it at this point.

Where we are right now:

I know that b/c he still works with her technically the A is not considered over according to the MB plan even if there has been NC for 11 days now (by my calculations and investigating). We should have word by the end of next week where post-election moves have settled everyone. If they remain in the same building, that's not likely to change for awhile unless my WH can successfully be transferred and that can take months as well.

I also understand that most of you feel he should not work with women at all anyway. That is not going to happen so I understand that that probably kicks us out of the MB program as well. I need to find a path that does not involve that as it is impractical and unrealistic.

I have exposed to target family, the OWH, and at work (to the extent that I can without risking my own job).

He has agreed to recommit to me & our family, to try to regain what we lost. He has agreed to NC, total transparency, and has taken lots of steps to show me that he is trying to rebuild my trust in him, making me feel safe in the marriage, etc. He has shown remorse and taken responsibility (but not as much I would like or expect)

I am doing Plan A - showing a willingness to meet the needs I wasn't meeting before while focusing on meeting the intimate ENs (conversation, affection, SF, & RC). All while working on becoming a better person for ME.

In terms of Plan B:

He understands that if NC is broken, we are done. That is, I go into Plan B. Going by what I've learned here, b/c they work together it is inevitable that he will break NC. I read MF's thread on how to Plan B properly. Because I have a baby on the way in 7 weeks and because I have been advised by an atty, I am not moving out. He would have to move out. He will not b/c we work in a law enforcement related field and he knows his rights, so I cannot just change the locks. I can try to ask him to leave over and over as was suggested out but I know that he won't leave and I have been told that a sloppy plan b is worse so not quite sure what to do there. That's where I'm stuck on what to do next.

I can file at that point but that is not Plan B - it is plan D. Sooo...there is no plan b for me? If I end up having to file within the next few weeks I have already decided that it is ridiculous for ME to be the one to move out with a newborn when HE is the one who had the affair. I'm not going anywhere and neither are my kids so that's when it will get messy.

As far as truth is concerned: I have decided to move forward without the poly. Has everyone here who recovered gone through the poly? Just curious. I don't want the gory details. I personally believe that it went physical and I don't believe anything he says, only what I have proof of. Someone on this thread said that *I* determine how much I want to know and I have made that determination. Yet it seems like many here believe I am not being cooperative and stand no chance at recovery unless I force the poly issue.

So that's where I am right now. Definitely not the straight and narrow MB path so I'm sure many of you are going to quit on me. I understand. I've been going back and reading other threads and going over the concepts waiting for SAA to arrive. Is this a book I should give him to read too?

Since maritalbliss isn't coming back, can anyone explain what she meant by this:

POM, it is not our "feelings" that he should not work with women, and most especially his previous OW, but a matter of fact. But you already know that. We are all posters just like you and have no power to "kick you out of the MB program."

It is your marriage to manage as you see fit, but unfortunately, the path you outline here won't lead to recovery. Recovery is impossible as long as he continues to work with his OW and he does nothing to change the environment that led to his multiple affairs.

You don't have to please us, POM. It is your marriage, not ours. If you don't take the neccessary steps to recover your marriage, that is your prerogative.

That is because most people here are not going to help you on a destructive path. It is my personal policy to not throw a drowning person an anchor even though that is what the person wants and desires. If the drowning person wants a livesaver, I am there with bells on!

Take care.....

I guess I'll just keep on reading then...
I have tons of threads that I am reading:
FR, notable posts, boundaries, that I think will be very helpful. If there are any others that anyone cares to recommend I am listening...

We did discuss his boundary issues with women and he is addressing that. If him not working with other women is the "fact" that is going to make me out to be the one "not taking the necessary steps" then so be it. I guess all the recovered serial cheaters that were on here no longer work with the opposite sex? Maybe that really is the only path to recovery for us but right now it is totally unrealistic and that only leaves one alternative path for us: divorce.

Thank you everyone for your time and input. I'm sure I will still have questions and hopefully some of you will still answer [with the understanding that I am at step 0, I know that]

Right. It is up to you to protect your own boundaries, not him.


Only if he won't agree to your boundaries would it lead to divorce. And if he doesn't, you are headed to divorce anyway.


Exactly. If that is what it takes, they is what they do.

Actually Dr H recommends the first thing a betrayed spouse does is get a therapist in case they need ADs and a lawyer to protect both themselves and their finances from the abusive behaviour of a wayward. Many people (including myself) filed for a D when going into Plan B purely to protect themselves legally. If you are not keen on filing for a D, I would simply say that you do not want to file, you simply need him to leave until he goes complete NC. Tell him if you have to file, you will. That should get rid of him and that will mean you do not have to do Plan D unless he refuses to go, in which case you should for self-preservation.

I would get legal advice anyway in preparation. If he forces you to file by refusing to leave, remember that he can stop divorce proceedings at any time by agreeing to proper recovery conditions. If it takes him ages to see the light and you are divorced by that time, you can always remarry.

I don�t know if it is different where you are, but here in the UK the person who files (you) has the most control over how long a D takes. It also sends a strong message following Plan A, i.e. �Shape up quick, make it happen or you will find yourself divorced from the best person you have ever known�.

[/quote]

I didn't say I wasn't going to read your thread, I said I wouldn't tie up your time reading advice you don't wish to hear

What I meant by my quote is that he realizes that the consequences he's facing aren't that bad. He's still got you, the house, the kids, his job - he hasn't lost anything. Oh, he hasn't lost OW either, btw. He just knows to be sneakier next time so he doesn't get caught and have to deal with your anger.

Thank for the replies... taking it all in.

Question: was this a LB or letting the consequences of his actions fall on him:

Had an OB appt today...OB knows what's going on b/c of the STD panel and well, baby's health of course! WH knows that OB knows so he asked. And continued to pry - so what did the Dr say? I knew what he was asking.

"My Dr said you are stupid and to tell you he said so."

Well...you can imagine what happened next. The cruelty that came out of his mouth though...tells me exactly how wayward he still is. Of all the revolting things he spewed at me after that, the winner definitely was "Waaah for the pregnant girl".

I stayed calm, did not get angry, did not let anything else out.

As long as the politics of your situation matters more than your sanity, personal recovery or marital recovery, can you even wonder why he has the license to abuse you like this?

Start telling us the worst case scenario if this whole thing blows up - and get real. Can THAT be any worse than what you're going through right now?

Seriously. If you have the ability to succeed in that kind of career there are avenues to transfer that skill into other realms of private sector work. Get your resume and ducks in a row, get it in circulation and blow that dang situation up in HIS face. He still has to provide. Let him figure out how. STOP PROTECTING THAT YAAAAAHOOOOOOO!

I have to agree Pieces of Me, He thinks he has you over a barrel because of your circumstances. You may have to chew off a limb in order to get out of the trap he has set for you, i.e. the job, the house. Maybe get somewhere to rent, or stay with friends until you can make your WH support you legally



Disgusting, totally disgusting. But good job not falling into the 'anger trap' he set for you.

What did he EXPECT the doctor to say? Oh its not a big deal when a parent endangers their unborn child?

BTW - you misunderstand: Plan B and Plan D are not mutually exclusive choices. You can file for divorce to force him out so that you can Plan B and start to recover your sanity.

His High And Mightiness needs a comeuppance and filing for divorce and going to ZERO contact after you force him out of the house is the best thing for doing just that. Asking for possession of the house right now, in light of his harassment of a woman in your condition should be a cake-walk now.

You know, I'm finally getting there.

I have started playing out the worst case scenarios in my head and what I'm thinking is that if I wait until I'm on maternity leave, they legally can't fire ME though they can let him go if they see fit but at the very least, they can address the situation.

Me losing my job with 3 kids AND divorcing at the same time - yes, definitely worse than this. I know he has to provide but I am not the type of person to depend on someone else. I need to be able to support myself and my children.



Yup - realizing this now. That is what I will have to do if/when I have to implement Plan B.

Should I ask him to read SAA?

I wouldn't at this point. He's not ready to survive an affair. He wants to drown in it, actually. A man who can say what he said to you isn't open minded enough to consider preserving his marriage yet.

That's why I would get a check up from your doctor and start maternity leave early due to your condition (medical release), file for divorce, have him removed from the home, deliver Plan B letter, and have him locked out of the delivery room, and frankly out of the hospital when that time comes. The sooner the better with this beast.

Oh - and don't forget - you are NOT unemployable. Get yourself situated into a new job within 3 months of this baby coming. Plan and prepare to be independent, but make sure you get him locked into child support and day care.

When you turn the corner on this, you will start thinking more on your assets and capabilities and less on limitations. You want any hope of serenity, you start the ball moving toward starting your own consulting company, public relations or otherwise, and it's an election year so there are tons of customers out there, work quietly behind the scenes and get yourself a pay raise to boot.

Let him wallow in his sickness all he wants, but you get yourself clear of his cesspool!

So you already have a business off the ground.
Kayla is right -- you can explain to your OB that OW is at your work environment, and that is causing you lots of stress.
Ask for an STD panel to reinforce the idea that your husband is running around. Your OB will put you on a short-term disability until you go into labor.

Then you can focus on your other business and get it to a point where it can support you.

File for divorce, custody, use of your home, and financial support. Your WH needs a BIG wake-up call.

I just detest waywards that are not remorseful and continue to abuse! And especially you -- carrying his baby! What an AZZ!

x2.

Not to mention, Dr Harley says that unless a WH comes to you on bended knee and with hat in hand that you are basically wasting your time and that he is not serious.

Ugh. Ok I think I know where I am and what I need to do.

Prepare for Plan B so I am ready to execute when the time comes. Continue with Plan A for another couple of weeks.

What I'm struggling with at the moment is how to continue Plan A for another couple of weeks without checking out emotionally in order to protect myself from his continued emotional abuse.

Example...I am having a very weak day today, I admit. It's days like today where I KNOW I would be handling things so much better if I wasn't pregnant. The emotions are out of control. It infuriates me too because it's how I know he's taking advantage of my situation. So of course... major LB... a needy whiney, weepy moment this morning. The slap in the face was when he said to me "You can't keep me if I don't want to be kept". His arrogance makes it EASY for me to just check out.

But I know that if I do, there IS no hope of recovery, because basically we know he's not in love with me right now and I'll be intentionally trying to NOT be in love with him anymore. Plus it'll be LB city from me...

How do I find that balance? I used to know how to do this, how to handle him. Where did that part of me go? Advice?

You don't find balance, you find PLAN B. Trying to endure abuse is not wise, my dear. He has already taken a huge toll on you and it is getting worse very FAST. Most women cannot endure it for more than 3 to 4 weeks and that is when they start having nervous breakdowns and serious physical problems. And it will come on fast.

Hon, you need to abandon Plan A and get into Plan B sooner rather than later. You also have an issue of you working together, so I would be thinking of ways to resolve that problem. SEeing him at work will be a nightmare that will completely negate the purpose of Plan B.

I would agree with him and ask him to go. Pack his bags up and when he comes home tell him, you are absolutely right. I cannot keep you. Your behavior is so painful to me that I would appreciate it if you would leave. I have packed your bags and I am asking you to leave. Give me some peace from this continual hurt and betrayal."

Then go to your boss and tell him what has happened. Tell him being around your H is tearing you down emotionally and you have asked him to move. Ask him to either let you work from home or move to a place where you won't be exposed to your H, becauase seeing him and his OW CREATES A HOSTILE WORK ENVIRONMENT FOR YOU. <--------------MAGIC WORDS

Once you have him out and are not seeing him at work, THEN go into Plan B.

Dont be so sure. Plan A has a three-week limit for a reason. I only did two weeks and toward the end I was ready to have him shot.

The only thing I can suggest is use it to EMPOWER yourself with. The uglier his statements, the smarter your reverse fog babble can be, (read orchids thread on reverse fog babble) YOu only get this one opportunity to TELL IT LIKE IT IS.

i.e. FOG BABBLE: "You can't keep me if I don't want to be kept".

REVERSE FOG BABBLE: "Yes, I think you ARE going to wind up divorced. I hope youll be ok"

OR "That's right you wont be able to keep me under these circumstances. I hope you come to your senses before I move on."

Could you consider a temporary location for Plan B in the meantime? Vacation for those few weeks, move into a friends spare room?

If you feel you cant Plan A, you have to get out before you blow your top an become the 'psycho' all waywards think they are married to.

Agree with Mel. Dr Harley has spoken on the radio show about how many women will have immune system issues down the road after enduring a Plan A longer than a few weeks (tired, unable to get out of bed, etc) Why would you risk that?

As for getting WH out of your house, I called my MIL, both times, in '07 and this past time after telling him he was going to have to leave.

After telling them what he was doing, I asked for their support and added something like: I don't see why the kids and I should have to suffer more due to HIS poor choices and try to find another place to live. *and* He knows what he needs to do in order to fix this and he refuses to do so.

I do not think you will get as much resistance as you think from WH. I think he just knows that he can bully you. I would just pack up his stuff, change the locks and call your in-laws or anyone else that could help you.

Be very clear about the fact that you are going SOON because he isnt trying hard enough. Hit that Plan A stick

Be sorrowful FOR him, as though you think he's going to be really lonely and sad, but say you owe it to yourself and the baby not to have a better life than that. Repetitively tell him he can make things BETTER FOR HIMSELF whenever he wants.

indie, you crack me up, girl. But you make a good point - your love bank was pretty much depleted.

I love the way you think Im kidding....

Pieces,

Dr. Harley says that being betrayed causes WORSE trauma and stress than rape or death.

Even under the best conditions women should only Plan A for a few weeks.

In YOUR condition there is NO WAY you should live with a snarky, smug unrepentant cheater.

Does his mommy live close? I love that suggestion that you call her for assistance.

Ok...here is my current plan - tell me what you think:

-Next week he will be home all week with our son, no work, so it's alot easier for me to relax a little, verify NC, and continue to Plan A properly (as long as we make it through tomorrow without incident - how sad that this is a day by day thing); plus we'll be spending alot of time together

-then he goes back to work for 4 days. During those 4 days I will be able to implement conditions that will allow me to verify whether or not he is carrying on the A at work. If it IS still going on, I will certainly catch something during those 4 days.

When those 4 days are up, then comes the weekend and then he goes on a business trip out of town (he'll be under my Mom's nose the entire time, no worries there). The day he leaves is the first day I'll be able to verify any intel acquired during that previous week. If I find NC has been broken, it will be very easy to go into Plan B at that point because he will be out of the state.

During this time, final results of election related moves & transfers will be known and we will know where everyone is settling.

I will proceed with the following during the time he is away:

- I will pack his stuff (most of which he'll already have packed with him anyway)
- write him his letters/send as emails and not speak to him at all, use my mom as the IM since he'll be staying with her
- Tell the OWH whatever it was that I found and open up communication with him again
- Go see my Dr and see if I can be taken out of work earlier so I can't lose my job
- Write a letter to the bosses to expose the A to them
- Expose to his mother (I know, I know should've done that already)
- In the letter I will tell him that he must agree to the following conditions in order to come home:
-write a NC letter
-submit to a polygraph
-agree to follow the MB program
-absolutely MUST transfer at work

If he does not agree to those conditions before getting on the plane to come home, I will file for divorce and start proceedings to have him removed from the house.

*I* am pregnant and about to deliver a baby, *I* did NOT have a an affair so *I* am not going anywhere.


The other factors:
-His attitude: there are moments that I see true remorse and lots of effort... those become more frequent the less I talk about the A and more time we spend together. For example, on weekends - we usually do pretty well and his attitude is MUCH better...come Monday morning... I get my wayward husband back. Hmmm...no coincidence there, right?

This is why I think that combined with the long break from work (aka OW) and us spending lots more time together, I may be able to see if my real husband has a chance of coming back. Since I'll be able to Plan A properly, that gives us a better chance there too and I'll know that I've done all I could have up to this point.

-What if NC is broken before then? Well, same plan, just not as neat and easy to execute. I will have to file before I can get him out of the house and I won't have that nice built in "kicked out of the house" week (spent with MY mom no less!!) for him to feel the consequences of his actions

-What if NC is broken after he gets back and before a work transfer can be made? Same as above.

-What if NC is maintained but his attitude remains unremorseful and wayward? Well... that's where I get a little stuck.

That's what I have for now...

Pieces:

You seem to have every base covered. I admire your fortitude, especially while pregnant.

Waywards are such aliens! Who would DO that to his pregnant wife??!!?!?!?!?!?

Good luck with your plan,
Sweet Pea

This is what I have seen in person and from what I have seen here. This probably means that NC is not really in place, that contact is underground. Just a little heads up so you can think it through.

Which is why I'm pretty certain that I'll catch it. I'm pretty sure it's just underground too. I have to prove it though to get him to hit rock bottom and kick him out otherwise I look like the irrational psycho one for filing for divorce when "nothing is going on" - kwim?

I search for an affair phone everyday and like I said...I don't want to give away my methods but I will be able to ascertain broken NC within the next 17 days for sure. Not only because they will be forced to be away from the work situation and thus much easier to monitor, but because I will be able to check in on that work scenario.

Unless I continue to see a change in attitude, I'm fairly confident I'm going to find something and that's what I'm preparing for.

If he is unremorseful and wayward you will know he is not serious and should go ahead with your plan. Dr Harley says that unless a wayward husband is has his hat in hand and is showing true remorse, he is not serious. And you will also see how serious he is by his actions. If he is still wayward then you go forward with this plan. I cannot tell you how many WH's have thrown their BS's a crumb by ending their affair for a few days, weeks, just to shut her up. It is a death of a thousand cuts for the BS. You are better off being in Plan B if he is still acting wayward.

And of course, whether or not he still contacts the OW during this time does not negate the fact that he has to leave that job and find a career where he can be held accountable. If he goes off and gets the same kind of job, then this will happen again. The environment has to change..

Your husband is a playah who is out looking for action.

Also, you should tell his mother NOW. Why haven't you exposed his affairs?

Too many women think they have to have "proof" when the proof is in the cruelty of his behavior when he's home - he's attacking you verbally, traumatizing and stressing your body, which is carrying HIS CHILD!!! What more proof do you think you need?

This is not a remorseful husband in withdrawal, this is a currently wayward husband who thinks he has the upper hand and you have no choice but to take it!

Speed up the clock on your timeline to hours instead of days and weeks, and you have yourself a plan!

POM, Kayla is right, his attitude has not changed so I am unclear why you are waiting on this. You don't have to catch him contacting the OW to know that he is not remotely serious about committing to your marriage.

Don't bother verifying NC. It never started to begin with and you probably, deep down, know that.


Which OWH is this? OWH#1 or OWH#2? You must cover both as your WH is very likely seeing both of their wives.


Do this now, this minute. This is a huge chance for an ally and shouldn't be squandered. What about the rest of his family??


And with the above in mind, why are you so hesitant to change the locks and kick his butt out of the house? Picture the police showing up trying to figure out what has happened and why WH has called them. You, obviously pregnant and with two little ones in tow, tell the police that your husband is committing adultery with two other women, has been verbally abusive to you and so you want him out of the house for your own mental well-being.

Now, who do you think has more sympathy?

This is hard to read. You have more power than you think and are letting this guy get away with too much.

POM;

Melody Lane beat me to the punch -- you should expose to his mother immediately. Do you get together with his family for Christmas? Do they live nearby?

My son would get a good talking to if he did this to his pregnant wife. Tell her that you SAW these emails with your own eyes. Tell her what those emails said. Ask her for her help and support.

I like the rest of your plan. Very well thought out.
Nice job!

And did you ever put a VAR in his vehicle?
You would very likely catch some conversations going on that would be enlightening.

When you said you exposed to his family, who did you mean?
Who exactly did you expose to?

My son would be in BIG TROUBLE too. God help him if he ever behaved in such a low down trashy manner. I would also be on the phone with these skanks and their parents. It would not be pretty.

Thank you Sweet Pea.


This is true BUT it's not enough for him to hit rock bottom. He'll walk away thinking he's justified. I want to erase any and all logic in that.


I know...I read the False Recovery thread...months and months of NC and then back on again. Painful. The change has to be within him, not his environment (or not just his environment, I should say). There will always be women around. Yes you can reduce the likelihood but damn...if he wants to cheat that badly, I'm better off without him anyway, like you said. I don't want to be married to a man that I have to keep in a certain environment (like a gerbil in a cage LOL) just so he won't cheat. I'll never have any peace anyway.




Two main reasons:

1 - *I* don't feel ready to implement Plan B. I need to do it in a well thought out, deliberate manner so that I know I am not being ruled my emotions or hormones. Remember this man is totally not in love with me right now - so why stay? It's much easier to leave. The timing I've laid gives a chance for us to reconnect a little and for him to see what he'll be giving up.

2 - If Plan B has any hope of maybe not leading to an actual divorce, the only way will be by getting him to hit rock bottom. If I implement plan B without that - he'll just walk away feeling justified and he is. so. not.


And I DO see changes...his actions say the right thing but his words are still wayward. He has taken lots of steps to try to make me feel safe and try to begin to earn my trust back (for example: calling me constantly during the day at work and giving updates on everything going on; transparency on all email and phone, he tells me about every text he gets even when I don't ask - I am able to verify what he is telling me of course and he does not know that, he willingly and voluntarily accounts for all his time and whereabouts).

It's when we get into discussions/arguments that it comes out... the chain of events is always "you neglected me for 3 years which caused me to do what I did, therefore it's your fault". History is still being rewritten by him...

And of course...affection and concern for my feelings is lacking most of the time... not all the time, but a lot of the time. If he notices the slightest change in my mood, he's all over me "what's wrong, what is it" so there is concern there but it goes down the tubes when he starts rewriting history.

What are the signs of a remorseful WH in withdrawal? I'd like to compare...is there a thread I can read?

I'll reply to the rest of the questions in a bit...

Parents that do not condemn misbehavior by their children are not being PARENTS, they are wanting to be BUDDIES with their children...

The greatest love a PARENT can give his child is to love them enough to guide them through their life.

ENABLING AN ADULTERER IS NOT LOVING YOUR CHILD.

My own father STILL enables my brother by not condemning my brother's actions after he had an affair with my wife WHILE HIS OWN WIFE WAS PREGNANT which continues to affect my family...

BECAUSE...

My father's misguided view that loving his other son means tolerating all of his abusive behavior.

Jim

You are making a common mistake, a wrong assumption.

Plan B is not a ploy to change his behavior, to cause him to hit rock bottom. He will do what he wants. It is not a ploy to save your marriage, a tactic. It can lead to that, but that is not what it is.

Plan B is for you.

You need to STOP telling us how to recover. You don't know how to recover a marriage. We are in recovered marriages and YOU ARE NOT. So please take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth, young lady. Your best thinking has got you in this mess. You need to LISTEN and stop talking.


But you ARE married to such a man. That is my point. He is a serial cheater. So while you may not "want" to keep him in that environment [what you call a "cage"] is the ONLY solution to living with a serial cheater.

And you are missing the point entirely when you say that *YOU* would keep him in a cage. You don't have any such power. A person who is SERIOUS about changing his life would keep himself in a cage so he wouldn't slip. I am a recovering alcoholic with 26 years sobriety. My husband does not have to "keep me in a cage" because I OBSERVE APPROPRIATE BOUNDARIES. Not at the point of a gun. I do not go to bars, I don't hang out with drunks, I have CHANGED MY ENVIRONMENT SO I AM NOT TEMPTED. I do that for ME, not becuase my H has a gun to my head.

If you have to hold a gun to his head to get him to observe proper boundaries by CHANGING HIS ENVIRONMENT you have already lost. But for you, those should be your boundaries. You should not even consider staying married unless he takes point on this.

Will power does not work with addictions. So relying on will power with your serial cheater husband will not work.

You think you are going to change him from the inside and grant him some magic WILL POWER. That is silly and unrealistic. Will power did not stop him in the past and it won't stop him in the future. A person who is serious changes their own environment in order to lesson temptations.

Again, you are not listening to us. This is your own wrongheaded extrapolation. Please accept you don't know what you are doing and start listening.

None that you're seeing. From your post of 12/20...


I don't suppose you got an apology for that?

His goal is to be "honest enough" about most things and not about all things so that you quit bothering him about cheating on you. When you don't buy it, he deflects and blames it on you so that you argue about that instead of his cheating on you.

It seems to be working, wouldn't you say?

Call his mother. She's a big girl and can handle it. To assume otherwise is patronizing.

POM --

You're already jumping ahead and making assumptions about how recovery would work -- when you haven't completed Step 1.

Step 1 is ending the affair.

Unless you take that step, you do not need to worry about how he will handle recovery. Because you are going to follow MARRIAGE BUILDERS as part of your recovery plan -- you are going to get a husband that has a new outlook on marriage and his behavior.
So stop worrying about cages and ultimatums -- because those are not part of MARRIAGE BUILDERS. Marriage Builders is about putting your spouse first - and never being the cause of their unhappiness.

Doesn't that sound nice?

Take Step 1.

Excuses, long winded explanations for:

~ why you haven't exposed (you haven't executed proper Plan A if you haven't exposed)

~ why you aren't following Dr Harley's time frame to protect BS's health in Plan A

~ why you need more proof than the WS still working with the OP for contact

~ why ExtraOrdinary Precautions aren't for your situation because you want him to use willpower and not change the conditions that led to his affairs

All of these things are NON NEGOTIABLE if you are serious about using the MB plans.

All of this is HARD to implement, not a cake walk, we get it.

But...there is NO EXCUSE you can use to convince us that you don't need to follow the steps every other BS needs to follow when they get here, PoM. It's a narrow path and we have seen far too many posters come back with unrecovered marriages and more affairs to be distracted.

You are in Plan PoM, not Plan A/B path, which is most likely going to lead to a divorce or more affairs with risk to your health. Lets be clear about that.

This is what I suspect, yes.



I mentioned before...because of where we work he is not uneducated enough in family law to not know what to do next or what his rights are. I will have to file a TOP, he will cross file and then...well, b/c of where we work it just all goes nutty from there. Sure, I can pull the crazy woman thing, have the cops come to the house, make big scene, traumatize my kids the day before Christmas, get Daddy thrown in jail, exercise my power...yeah, not quite there yet.




I have seen neither hair nor hide of OW#2 since that email. And that's ALL I have to go on...there are no phone records, no other emails, no texts, nothing. I have one inappropriate email [from her] to go on. Which btw, he later admitted to inappropriate conversation with her, but nothing more. I know - doesn't mean anything. He did not fight me on NC with her at all. Not proclaiming his innocence, just telling you what I know.



And say what? "I found out WH has been having an A, he has promised to stop and I have no proof that he hasn't stopped as of 14 days ago other than him acting like a jerk and still physically working in the same building with her. Help me convince him to leave his job and change his attitude"?

Most people who don't know about MB would find the measures required (quitting jobs, moving out of state) to be extreme. If I prove that it's still ongoing, I'm not the psycho who can't get over his " brief inappropriate friendship with a co-worker" - kwim? And there goes my ally.

His sister knows. And she has [much to my disappointment] decided to stay quiet. I'm sure it's because the instant I told her, she broke down and confessed to ME that SHE had been having an EA with an old boyfriend (she is married as well) that HER BS discovered it and she ended it. Run in the family much????? Anyway...



Ok... I understand. I guess I am not ready for that yet this very minute, but I am getting there which is why I am preparing for it.


Melody...[if I may pause before putting the cotton balls in my mouth and going back to listening ] believe it or not we are saying the same thing. I know I wouldn't be the one keeping him in the cage. I WOULD be the one putting the gun to his head though and saying "either do it this way or I'm out". Then he would have to want to do it himself and stick to it. My point is that if he doesn't want to do it, I don't want to be married to him anymore.


Exactly. HE has to want to do it. We've discussed it. Not under the seriousness of me actually filing for divorce though. And he would not do it. Nor do I want him to if that's not what he wants. I want a normal husband who can co-exist with women and not cheat so I don't have to worry for the rest of my life. I can do it. Why can't he? Why is that too much to expect? If he tries and proves that he can't, I'm out. Addiction or not. I am not here to cure his addiction. Like the alcoholism analogy... I'm sure people drink around you or you are, at times, in situations where there is temptation around you. You had to learn to function with those temptations still around you to a certain extent. That's what I'm saying he has to do.


I did get one the next morning. Not that he came downstairs where I had slept on the couch that night and begged for forgiveness on his knees - but after some talking, he did apologize for that & everything else he said that night. Again, not saying he's mr. remorseful (because everything still had that air of "you're just being overly sensitive b/c you are pg), just saying what happened.




Step 1: end the affair.

To do so, cages and ultimatums are required here, that's what all the vets are saying:

1 - change work environment to one where there is little to no temptation aka "the cage" (ok, that was just a joking example people, lets not run away with that and use it to call me irrational or uncooperative)

2 - go into Plan B aka the ultimatum; the consensus here is that I should go into plan B now, not later. Plan B requires me to file for D due to the laws and our knowledge of and involvement with the law. Filing for D is definitely an ultimatum or maybe not an ultimatum per se, but instead, taking the first steps to ending my marriage. That is not the MB path to a marriage recovery....which yes, does sound very nice.

Unless you mean:

End the affair = transfer/quit THIS job and find another one. Melody feels strongly that that is not enough and my boundary should be change the entire environment



Yes, I understand that I am not on an MB path or even step one yet. I said that before. Basically I started out and did everything wrong and now I have a plan for moving forward the right way. [I think - that is why it is up for critique]

I'm not going to jump into it half-assed tomorrow or tonight when I have the opportunity to do it right within the next few days (which taking the steps to PROTECT MY OWN JOB, PROTECTING THE LIVING SITUATION AND CUSTODY OF MY CHILDREN, and setting myself up for proper living circumstances TO BRING A NEWBORN BABY HOME TO) ... IF my sanity & strength hold up that long. And yes, I know that is a major concern here. But I guess I just have to suck it up be a little bit stronger for my kids for a little bit longer.

To be clear, the ONLY other option I see here Susie is file for D tomorrow with the full intention of just going through with it. That's not being serious about the MB program either.

Otherwise you are talking about half-assed exposure at work tomorrow which could just get me fired if he {or I} makes me out to look like a lunatic b/c I didn't do it carefully, changing the locks, calling the police when he finds out, filing a restraining order, AND filing for D all tomorrow... 2 days before Christmas. Really not trying to make excuses, just trying to do it all rationally...

Well, yeah, sort of.

How about,

WH has been having an affair with a woman at work. He still works with her and has been hostile to me ever since I told him to stop cheating on me. We both value your input and need your help. I would appreciate your using your influence with him to get him to stop the adultery and commit to this marriage and family. There is too much at stake here and me and the kids need your help.

What they do next is beyond your control, but you have to actually ASK them to intervene and get involved.

I wouldn't leave any stone unturned.

I have to say I think that you are putting way to much stock in his pokerbluff of arrogance. ALL WHs (including mine) know their rights - but following the KEY STAGE OF EXPOSURE they dont want to look like a [censored] who kicks the betrayed party out onto the streets. They also know that the cops are not going to sort out a civil matter so they dont even bother. Get some childcare for the kids if you dont want them there, but there prob wont even be a scene. Just WH struggling to use a key that doesnt work and then trying to call a phone that has been caught off. Then he is what, going to try and sort legal pwork over the holidays? Leave it out PoM. The real reason is that you cant let go yet.



You simply say that he had an affair and refuses to end it. Say that you know it is ongoing, have seen inappropriate messaging and you need support to convince him to end his affair once and for all by ending contact with her.

I didnt have to expose a physical affair, I have no idea what they got up to. I found some texts and simply told one and all they were having an affair and refused to end 'their relationship' when he refused to go NC. You dont have to prove it to a jury. Just ask for support and expose nuclear style.

As soon as he did that everyone leaned on him to end his 'platonic friendship'. What mattered to people was that he was not honouring his wife or marriage - they didnt need a CSI report. Plus even if no one reacts they suddenly have a desperate desire to look like the GOOD GUY.



Filing for a divorce and meaning it IS MB. You have an unrepentant wayward on your hands who is going after your security and property. Dr H says the FIRST thing someone in your shoes should do is to protect their interests.

Unless you get into a Plan B you will be divorcing anyway, so you DO mean it when you file for a D. You mean it and he can only stop it by changing the circumstances which forced you to conclude a D is best while he unrepentant.

You need to show some steel. Addicts dont drop the business of inflicting pain because you say 'please'.

You are getting NOWHERE sitting there dreaming up excuses and 'what ifs'

Yeah but this is trickling the exposure. I didn't do the tsunami of truth properly the first time around - this time I will. That's why I'm waiting. The only remaining people to expose to are the bosses at work and his mother. I'll do them both at the same time.


Exactly. And you are right indiegirl, I am not ready to let go, not just yet. I am building up the steele.

Still not listening to us.....

If you aren't willing to defend your boundaries then you have no boundaries. That is the point. And you still don't get it.


Then you have your answer. So why are you wasting your time with all this other nonsense?


Then your marriage won't recover. It's that simple. In order to recover you must change the environment that made him vulnerable to an affair. Your analogy doesn't work with me, though, because the environment you described was never a temptation for me. The only times I am exposed to drinking situations is when I am with customers or coworkers at business dinners. That was not a temptation for me, and if it was, I would obviously avoid it. If my coworkers/clients want to drink it up after dinner, I politely excuse myself. Real easy. I avoid tempting situations, I am too serious about my sobriety to stay in a tempting situation.

And that is the point, your H will have to change his environment if he is serious. It is apparent he can't work with women.


But you don't have normal husband so your issue is acceptance of reality. You have to accept that he will always be vulnerable to an affair under certain conditions. Will power didn't work in the past and it won't work in the future. You have a husband who is a serial cheater.

You will worry for the rest of your life if he doesn't change his environment so he can't cheat. You say you don't want this or that, but you are unwilling to take even one step to effect such a change. I guess you think it works by magic. Sorry, it doesn't.

No, you are not here to cure his addiction, you are here to protect yourself. And unless he takes steps to protect you from his addiction, guess what? You won't be protected.

But once again, you aren't listening and are wasting poster's time here. You are in Plan POM.

POM --

Do you know what the successful MB couples have?

They recover their marriages through a process that makes the wayward spouse WILLINGLY and HAPPILY do whatever it takes for as long as it takes to put their spouses fears to rest.

You need to start seeing the end game and stop fighting with us about the process.

Everyone comes here thinking their situation is special. Sadly they're not. And yours is not either. Your husband working in a political environment doesn't make it unique. Nor does his knowledge of his rights. Even your pregnancy is something we see all the damn time.

Your husband really seems to have control of you. Do you always doubt yourself and second guess everything? You seem to plot out every response you think he will have, and doubt your ability to influence or control the outcome.

Like your example of how telling your MIL would go down.

This is gonna take some strength and courage. Do you want to save your marriage, are you interested in making it affair-proof?

Warriors do not build swords, they grab them. Grab the sword of exposure, Plan D and Plan B and fight your way out of betrayed hell.

'Building' or rather more accurately 'staying put and doing nothing' will only subject you to more gaslighting while his affair becomes more entrenched.

By the time you pick up those swords, you will be more gaslighted and weaker and the affair will be stronger. So act now.

You are already sounding VERY gaslighted. All you talk about is how strong and clever he is and how nobody would believe you.

If tactictly, we thought doing nothing would make you stronger, thats what we would tell you to do.

Art of War: Appear strong when weak.

You do your exposure with chutzpah - nobody will dare disbeleive you

You tel your h he is luck y to have you and you will CONSIDER giving him a second chance if he impresses you very much.

We can give you a rockin' plan B letter.

I think we are just disagreeing about the timeline here...

I did not want to do this this week because, like I said, Christmas, we had house guests, etc etc. Work is shut down (there is no one there to receive an exposure letter) Many reasons...anyway.

I know I sound gaslighted. I'm not. I'm actually getting stronger day by day and working out the plan. At this point, I already know that I have Plan A'd him to the best of my ability...no LBs...I've been superwoman, supermom, and superwife the past several days. I can move forward knowing that I did more than a decent job of showing him what he'll be missing, showing him a willingness to meet his ENs if the A ends, all the carrot. Time for the stick...

I would like help preparing my Plan B letter if anyone is up for it. Are there samples anywhere? Also...setting up the situation with the kids...not quite sure where to even start with that... Also - since he will be away when this happens, is it better if I just send the letter via email and have no contact with him after it is sent (except through the IM) or is it better if I talk to him on the phone and then send the email?

The ONLY thing I disagree with you guys on is the total change in work environment to one where he cannot be around women at all. That is really just silly. Women are everywhere. If he wants to cheat THAT badly, he's going to find a way. That is not one of MY boundaries for moving forward, that is what some people here have determined is necessary and required. If the only way this man can be married to me and not cheat is by doing that, I don't want to be married to him anyway. Who would want to stay married to someone like that??

I'll be filing for divorce along with Plan B anyway so what's the difference?

POM,

If your husand will agree to MB led recovery, I don't think you need to remove all women from his work environment. As long as you get a husband with a new sense of boundries and appropriate behavior around women.

But he has a long way to go.

Right now, its your job to permanently end his affairs, and get his agreement to YOUR plan for recovery. MB will do the rest.
He needs to buy in to the MB recovery plan 100%

Dr Harley says very clearly that the conditions that made the affair possible need to be changed.

Since your WH has had at least two workplace affairs at his current job, yes, that is at least one condition that would need to be changed if you two are serious about affairproofing and recovering your M.

It sounds to me that you are already anticipating that he will refuse to leave the job or maybe you would just prefer D over him losing his current salary, I dunno.

But these are Dr Harley's own words and we have seen the wisdom in those words play out on these boards over and over again with unrecovered marriages and repeat affairs. You can take it or leave it, but no, you are not going to convince us that you know better than Dr Harley.

And I agree. The MAIN condition that made the affair(s) possible is HIS LACK OF BOUNDARIES with women, regardless of where they work. THAT is the condition that needs to change.

Possible OW#2 worked with him in the PAST, 5 - 6 years ago, actually no, before we were married. He kicked that up long after he left that building.

It's akin to him working at McDonald's in Town A, leaving that McDonald's to work at the McDonald's in Town B. Then kicking up a relationship with a woman from McDonald's A while also kicking up a relationship with a woman from McDonald's in Town B. The problem is NOT McDonald's - its HIM and his lack of boundaries with women, period, regardless of where they work.

Melody hit the nail on the head with that one pages ago.

I've even seen (in the past)borderline inappropriate (nothing like the email exchange with OW #2) communications with old HS female friends. That was swiftly addressed by him giving me his FB password at my request and him cleaning out his friends list voluntarily. And it worked for that angle. I didn't have to remove him from all computer access. Yes, folks, HE is the problem, not JUST the work environment.

Whatever, I hate explaining this because I know it sounds like I'm defending him and I'm not. It's just that the logic is not there if you understand the circumstances. I don't think I know more than Dr. H - my guess is that he would agree that leaving THIS specific job environment (he has now initiated the transfer process with our supervisor) would suffice for THIS affair and that the root cause of the problem (HIM and his lack of boundaries) is what needs to be addressed after that.

My question right now is why? Why does he need to feed his ego SO much with all this female attention? What is the root cause of the problem here? Insecurity? Fear of something?

Anyway... would still love some Plan B letter help... and a sample NC letter. Will search too...

But you are using ONE condition to negate the other so this is not logical. Just because he contacted an old lover, OW#2, who he does not currently work with, does not negate the fact that he had affairs with women he DOES currently work with. Of course he has to tighten his boundaries and leave this specific job. That does not mean he should continue working with females. But that alone will not affair proof the marriage of a serial cheater. He is still not safe in a work environment where he is around females.

The "ROOT CAUSE" of your husband's affairs is the ENVIRONMENT he works in. That is the environment in which he is tempted. The solution is to change the environment. That means he cuts off contact with old lovers AND stops working around women, not either or. Those two conditions do not negate the other as you are attempting to do. Nor is a boundary the same thing as an environment. You change both, not just one. Changing ONE does not change the other. And just changing one will not affair proof your marriage.


If he cheats when he goes into McDonalds, wouldn't the solution be to stop going into McDonalds? If I get hit by a car playing chicken, would the solution be to become a better chicken player? Or would the solution be to get my [censored] out of the road?

POM, all sarcasm aside, I don't believe I have ever seen the spouse of a serial cheater so adamant that her husband continue to work with females. I find that stance astonishing.

If you put half as much energy into finding real solutions that you do in defending the status quo, I bet you would have an affair proof marriage.

Can you focus that energy on finding solutions instead of protecting the status quo?

POM, instead of fighting so hard against everyone, why don't you think about the jobs your WH could have that wouldn't put him so closely with women. While it is true that women are everywhere, there are jobs that have men and women more closely together than others. These types of jobs are obviously ones that your WH isn't capable of being trusted in.

See, all of the people here are fighting for YOU, and for YOUR MARRIAGE. They are fighting harder for your marriage than your WH. They are strangers, and they don't want to see you back here in a few years saying that he has now moved onto OW6.

Do you own the book Surviving An Affair? Many of your questions will be answered there, including a PBL, and NCL. There are also many many threads. Look up the Plan B properly thread in the notables section. Search the NCL, and read some threads that are discussing it to find it.

I have worked almost exclusively with men since 1989. Senninpa's wife has a job where she works exclusively with men. People can start their own businesses [consulting is just one idea] and structure it where they are not working side by side with the opposite sex. But one has to be willing to put more energy into finding solutions than they do in finding excuses why they can't do something and see the latter here. But thats ok! Its not my marriage to lose.

I get it, I really do. I'm not going to continue explaining or defending or putting energy into that.

Hypothetical (and sorry if the answer is in SAA, I'm still waiting for mine):

Lets say we do the NC letter, mail it, and she STILL calls/tries to communicate. Let's say she calls right away to ADDRESS the letter since it will be an abrupt end to the A and noticeably influenced by me, the BW - then what? WH ignores the call, but I saw it, she KNOWS I saw it and clearly doesn't care. I would tell her BS, of course, but what if they are done anyway and he doesn't even care anymore?

A "loaded question", like a loaded gun, is a dangerous thing. A loaded question is a question with a false or questionable presupposition, and it is "loaded" with that presumption. The question "Have you stopped beating your wife?" presupposes that you have beaten your wife prior to its asking, as well as that you have a wife. If you are unmarried, or have never beaten your wife, then the question is loaded.

In other words, it is a "what if" until/if it happens. Chances are, contact will stop.

If you take the precautions, your H will have all the telephone numbers changed and there will be no chance of that. If perchance she gets through, then YOU answer the phone.

more than a loaded gun, it's a red-herring... not relevant because it's not happening.

Really, PoM, do you think we or Dr Harley is ignorant of the fact that waywards have poor boundaries?

After my STBX had his second workplace affair (third overall affair), Dr Harley did not tell me "Your H needs to fix his boundaries". He told me we have to look at making lifestyle changes ~ one of them being that STBX probably couldn't work in his profession anymore due to his interaction with women.

I also don't understand all this resistance. Doesn't your H work with two of his OW anyway? He will have to leave that job regardless. Do you acknowledge this or do you think he can stay there somehow?

Two things, PoM.

1) Maybe email Dr H about the serial cheater thing. He has prob seen many couples jump this 'unrealistic' barrier you keep balking at. I am sure he could give some tips. I think he can also better explain the difference between a serial cheater - who is addicted to ANY WOMAN and therefore has NO boundaries and a one-time cheater who became addicted to ONE WOMAN through LOOSE boundaries. With a serial cheater, fixing the boundaries does not prevent or fix the addiction, it is already present..

It is like trying to cure a cat of the urge to hunt mice. The only way is to keep it away from mice.

2)I get the impression you personally do not want him to change jobs. Is this because of his earning potential? If so, say so candidly. If you would rather be divorced and him paying support from this salary, I couldnt blame you for that. His salary has never let you down and he has. Every BS has the right to bail and to decide whether the recovery conditons are too steep for her.

Dr Harley has done a good job of explaining the difference between serial cheaters and one time cheaters in the radio clip I posted. He has also explained hundreds of times since 2006 that the solution is to change one's ENVIRONMENT along with their boundaries. It can't be either or. Said it again TODAY, said it yesterday. Says it almost every day.

He has told me this personally - on the radio clip I posted - and he has told Susie this same thing personally. He has said it over and over and over again. He explained it in his articles and his books.

I don't think hearing it one more time after he has explained 1000 times is going to do the trick if the listener is not willing to listen.

The main issue I see here is that POM believes that the same expertise [her own] that led her marriage into the ditch can drag it out. And as long as she insists on believing that, her marriage will stay in ditch.

I hate to say it, but I fear she is alot like me. Her only educator is PAIN and LOSS. She has to go through the School of Hard Knocks to ever get anything. That is sad for her children.

That's what I wanted to know.




No, he works with one of them. The other one is with the same general employer - they USED TO work in the same building years and years ago. They have zero reason to communicate professionally anymore, no work functions where they would both need to be, etc etc. She is in a town 45 mins away - it's as good as if she worked for someone else. The same company cuts all our checks, that's all.

What I would prefer is for him to transfer to the building right next to mine. That is the transfer he has applied for.


Also, speaking of... can we get back to this serial cheater thing for a moment... we have deemed him a serial cheater based on the one email I found from possible OW#2. Have not heard anything about or from her since. It's been weeks... he didn't fight me on NC with her AT ALL. I'm NOT trying to defend his actions or his "friendship" with her at all, I definitely think it was inappropriate judging by that email, but is it possible that that one was not an affair and not enough to classify him as a serial cheater?



I think I will, thank you.


Not exactly but you definitely make a good point. Some conditions can be too steep. It's not so much the salary, it's the security and the benefits. That and because there are so many places to move WITHIN the company that would still remove him from the situation and change the environment that it really makes more sense to keep the job.

But I think the best reason is... we work in the same department - I couldn't possibly have better monitoring potential on him than I do now. We report to the same supervisors so there's no messing with time (i.e. he could NEVER get away with telling me he's working and actually take the day off to have affair time) he is so accountable in every action here. I know what his daily tasks are, I know where he is supposed to be and who he is supposed to be with at *almost* all times, I have lots of access to computer information and surveillance if I need. I legitimately have keys to his office for crying out loud and can legitimately pop in on him at almost any time - WHY would I give that up!

For example - today - he's home, not at work, I was able to thoroughly search his office for an affair phone, any evidence of contact with OW, etc and I was legitimately supposed to be there. If he goes to work for NoGirlsAllowed Inc tomorrow but the daily fedex chic that stops in for 5 mins makes his radar, how would I ever know? At least here it's just a matter of time before I would find out.


I thought I listened to it but I will go back and check again (it wasn't the one about how repeated contact with the OP was worse than rape?)

So your answer is: No, he doesn't have to leave this job.