Here is the crux of your argument - the anti-MB argument that has the vets shaking their heads in sorrow.

How do you know he 'used to have good boundaries'? You never checked up on him before. You were never there 100 per cent of the time. You have no idea if he told you everything.

Its possible that he had lax boundaries which lay dormant and hadnt got him into trouble yet.... but were waiting to. But GOOD boundaries?

What you are talking about is pure belief. Not facts, but a theory you liked to believe in and wish to believe in again.

Sherlock Holmes would say - Never twist the facts to fit a theory but form your theory to fit the facts.

The facts are:

Good boundaries prevent people from cheating
People with good boundaries do not cheat. They never allow temptation to build on their doorstep and so never need to employ willpower.
If someone has cheated they cannot by definition have had good boundaries.

Its not possible that he just walked up to a woman one day and all his good boundaries shed like a snake skin. No matter what was going on his life, good boundaries are self aware and in place for life.

Your former belief in his good boundaries was a comforting one and one you dont want to let go of.

And even if he did magically drop boundaries one day - why did he? To get the rush of new love that he once got with you. Serial cheaters are addicted to the chase.

Mel is right. You are going to need a false recovery before you are forced to drop your pretty fantasy. You think Plan A is a magic reset button to persuade him he loves you, a love that will magically protect him from the dopamine affair-high addiction hes been chasing and therefore he doenst need to protect you with the extradordinary precautions suited to a serial cheater. Its not. You HAVE done Plan A - he just isnt listening.

The maddening thing is, you dont have to do the FR - AT ALL. You can simply avoid all the pain by going stepping into Plan B and telling him to let you know when he is serious about recovery conditions that will work.

That is not giving up, it is being firm on what treatment you will accept from him.

And those recovery conditions should be ones that fit the facts of the matter, (MB plan) not ones that suit what is comfortable to believe about the kind of man he once was and will magically be again... (PoM plan).

Indie - you make very good points. I understand.

I'm not arguing with you guys anymore...I understand what the MB plan is. I understand that I am not on it yet. Please understand that I am working my way there.

I have reopened the lines of communication with OWH. We will be meeting to discuss/compare notes/etc this week. Any advice, tips - what should I say, what should I NOT say?

He's an attorney so I feel like I have to be extra careful...

I would start with the truth.

Don't know how you expect anyone to advise you. No one knows your plan or goals.

I am sorry PoM, but I am out.

You want support for your Plan C and I wont help anyone do that.

Ill keep watching for signs of light though.

One of the things you guys told me to do was keep the lines of communication open with the OWH. I am now taking that step. I don't understand how that is plan c and no one can help me.

One step at a time, no?

Only doing parts of the MB plan and not others is Plan C.

Kinda answered the question yourself.

There are no experts on your plan here and you will get no encouragement for it.

I have stumbled my way here somehow and have not read this entire thread, so forgive my intrusion and lack of thorough knowledge. It peaked my interest, however.

PoM, if you would - please explain why you are not on the MB plan yet. I don't have time to go back 35 pages - and have only read the last couple. Are you saying you know you should be on the MB plan but you are not able to do so yet?

I can only tell you what sticks out to me and what my background is:

First, I am in a recovering marriage (over a year now) from my H's infidelity. My H and I have been following the MB program and are doing well. However, I have experience with false recovery and believe me - that is NOT what you want. It is more heartbreaking than anything you can imagine!

To me, if your WH has been outed and he is not fully repentant and willing to do whatever it takes to make you feel secure, you still have a very wayward husband on your hands. The danger of this is, the longer he gets away with this state of being, the harder it will be for him to come back from this mindset. If I were in your shoes, THIS is what I would tackle first - and as SOON as possible. Plan A is VERY short-lived, for a reason. What will happen now that your H is outed is that A: you will lose your resolve to do anything about the affair. B: each day that passes you will lose your power of influence of the future. C: he will lose any motivation to change his behavior or mindset.

You truly don't want to get yourself into a false recovery situation. Nor do you want things to be as they are indefinitely. I've seen way too much pain from this line of thinking and the next thing you know, years have gone by with a wayward still being wayward and a behind spouse that is so shattered mentally, they do harm to themselves AND their children.

You need to make it clear to your WH that you will NOT live in a marriage with a 3rd party in it! When your H is repentant enough to do whatever it takes to save his marriage, a lot of other things work themselves out.

So very well said, sunny.

CV

Brilliant post, SDiT. We are all very worried about PoM's increasing chances of a false recovery and I was hoping someone with personal experience would show!

Well - I know the process of it all (false recovery) and know how easy it can be to fall into that trap. If there's any way I can help someone avoid that, I will!

When I first found evidence of an EA and "sexting" I confronted my husband. He had no choice to admit it, but I was too soft at that time. I thought by barking at him that I would not be cheated on him in my own home, going to counseling, doing "everything right" in the marriage, etc... that it was over. I had even asked him to leave if he was going to continue this behavior. He elected to stay and at that point we were supposed to be "working on our marriage" pffft. oh - I was working on the marriage; he was working on plans to visit OW!

Today, what still bugs me more than anything was that he carried on his affair AFTER we had agreed to make real attempts in our relationship and I had "forgiven" the inappropriate texts, etc... I deceived myself into believing that he wasn't all that repentant and over the moon about recovery plans because "he needed time" and all the other things you trick yourself into believing. Of course, when I found proof of the PA, I didn't make that mistake a second time!

It's natural to want to find relief from the trauma of discovering your spouse's affair. Once you've confronted them you hope that will be the end of it. You WANT it to be, that's for sure! You want to believe your spouse when they list their excuses and tell you what you want to hear. It's just very important that you listen with your brain during this time and not your hurting heart!

The sad part is, this was not my first go round with infidelity. I went through it in my first marriage as well. So, unfortunately, I have way more experience in this than I would like!

PoM, I share this because I truly hope you get through this and can have the life you want - either through recovering your marriage or not. Let my mistake be a warning. I asked "why" you weren't fully implementing the MB plan because I'm not sure if you are getting your ducks in a row or because it is a scary process.

I learned the hard way that action that is not swift enough can cost you. I urge you to get those ducks lined up as soon as possible. It's too easy to lose momentum - and resolve - and everyone gets used to the status quo much too easily when you wait. With my husband it meant dealing not with just an emotional affair, but a physical one. For others it means an affair going underground that they thought was over. I truly don't know what it can mean for you.... but hopefully you'll be wise and shrewd enough to do what needs doing sooner rather than later - and avoiding the pitfalls.

Thank you SO much for your post SunnyD. Very helpful.

Yes, the only reason I am not on an MB plan yet is that I am lining everything up.

I am about 3/4 of the way through SAA, I have reopened the lines of communication with OWH (very enlightening, btw)and I am working on coming up with real solutions to the job problem.

I don't feel that I am losing my resolve, if anything, I feel like I'm getting stronger by the day. I finally feel like I am acting, not reacting. And...believe it or not, WH seems to be getting more repentant and remorseful by the day.

But you are making me understand the need to speed up the timeline. Can you tell me - how did you find out you were in false recovery? How did they hide the A from you after you initially exposed it?

Glad to see you're still here POM.

We're all pulling for you. One reason we are all so insistant that you do this right, is because you only get one chance to really be firm about your boundries and requirements.

Once you act like a doormat, you start getting the doormat treatment. Your wayward husband will keep trying to shift your line in the sand because that worked for him before.

We'd like to alleviate you of that power struggle by being very very firm and exposing so he gets in shape quickly.

What did OWH have to share?

Definitely speed up your timeline! While you may feel more resolved, the passing of time does strange things, to all parties involved. I've seen people gain "strength" because a WS starts appearing remorseful - to be knocked back into shock when push comes to shove because the WS was just appeasing the BS for the time being. I use the quotation marks on "strength" because it wasn't real strength: it was fleeting, because it was based on the reaction of the WS, not on a purposeful plan and end goal. The dance between the two parties becomes the earmark of "how things are going" instead of keeping real results in mind - not good.

For me, it was hard to tell it was a false recovery, at least for awhile. As I said - I'd fooled myself into thinking that H was coming around. He had started spending more time with me and was more pleasant. He seemed truly sorry that I was hurt by what I'd read. He made efforts around the house and with the kids. But...he wasn't at that "ready and willing to do whatever it took" to save our marriage. He was not 100% committed to recovery. (Because he was having an affair, of course.) I didn't really realize this completely until I discovered proof of the ongoing PA. I confronted him and got my ducks lined up and within 5 days, asked him to leave if he was not going to commit and do everything necessary - including no contact, etc... He left. The next several days I exposed the affair - and immediately, it came crashing down. It wasn't long before I saw a REAL repentant husband. I could feel the difference in the air - see it in his eyes - and his actions were now ready to back up his words. A month later, he moved back home.

How did he hide the affair after I originally confronted him about the text messages? (That's different from "exposure.") He just learned to hide things better. He conducted most of the communication from his computer and phone while away from me and erased all traces. He became MORE pleasant to me during this time period than he had been previously, to throw me off the trail, I guess. (I thought because his words/behavior had improved that his feelings had as well.) He was so good at hiding it, it took me crawling out of the bed in the middle of the night, on hands and knees, searching for his phone that was hidden on his side of the bed to find evidence. There were email messages on there that had not yet been deleted - and he was busted.

Every time you go through one of these battles you weaken your position. I live with the knowledge that had I done a better job earlier on, perhaps a PA could have been avoided. Lord only knows the EA was bad enough... but the pain of all this is multiplied a bit when I think of how much sooner I could have forced an end to things. Nothing can take that back: no amount of money, job security, nice house....nothing. Still, I'm luckier than some. There are a few friends I've made throughout all this that experienced YEARS of betrayal and will never be the same - because they couldn't bring themselves to pull the trigger. I worry about them. I worry that they will never fully recover, on a personal level. Now divorced, they still live for the the past or being haunted by it.

This exactly.

OWH...well...lucky him HE has a remorseful WS. She hates herself, doesn't know how she could do what she did, etc etc. Our timelines match up and their stories all match up. The bad news though is that she is pretty much completely not in love with him and VERY much "in love" with MY WH.

I knew more than him in terms of details though, but she seems to be far more HONEST with him...

He believes with 99% certainty (he claims) that it never went physical because "she's not that kind of woman". HOWEVER, one thing he told me she said struck me as very, very telling. She got enraged when he pressed her and she said "What kind of woman do you think I am? Do you think I go around making out with men in parking lots".

Um, yes, I think you just told us EXACTLY what kind of woman you are.

We are comparing more notes right now...

I think that many recognize a "real" recovery in hindsight. For me, I was too eager to believe and ignore that gut feeling. Looking back, it was painfully obvious that it was a FR. Your description covers it pretty well.

I can't think many instances of a BS or former BS that thought their husband or wife was "that kind" of man or woman! Oh - there are a few that know they're married to the cheatin' kind, but most people who have affairs are not THAT type.

Her words of being "in love with" your husband should tell you that now is the time for you to be tough because this woman is NOT going to go quietly into the good night.

This happens to the best of people, unfortunately!

If I had to describe what REAL recovery should look like, it's this: the wayward should feel their world - as they know it - crashing down around them and that they stand to lose everything. They should feel the BS ready to walk out the door, and do everything they can to stand it front of it and say, "please don't go..I'll follow whatever plan will save us!" (and mean it!)

My thoughts exactly and was what happened with me.

I think I get overzealous, sometimes, in my posts to newly betrayeds hoping that they'll have that conversation with their wayward and jump-start the process in bringing the bottom up to their wayward. Unfortunately, sometimes it takes a while to get there, to get fed up, to refuse to live like that any longer.

Yeah, I know. The thing is, the sooner they can get there, the better! Time is not on your side when you're a BS. It takes some longer than others, for sure. It helps to have support and someone to hold your hand when you're going through it! Also, it helps too if the BS understands why: what they have to gain and what they have to lose. The fear factor can just be SO strong and people remain frozen. Been there!