None that you're seeing. From your post of 12/20...


I don't suppose you got an apology for that?

His goal is to be "honest enough" about most things and not about all things so that you quit bothering him about cheating on you. When you don't buy it, he deflects and blames it on you so that you argue about that instead of his cheating on you.

It seems to be working, wouldn't you say?

Call his mother. She's a big girl and can handle it. To assume otherwise is patronizing.

POM --

You're already jumping ahead and making assumptions about how recovery would work -- when you haven't completed Step 1.

Step 1 is ending the affair.

Unless you take that step, you do not need to worry about how he will handle recovery. Because you are going to follow MARRIAGE BUILDERS as part of your recovery plan -- you are going to get a husband that has a new outlook on marriage and his behavior.
So stop worrying about cages and ultimatums -- because those are not part of MARRIAGE BUILDERS. Marriage Builders is about putting your spouse first - and never being the cause of their unhappiness.

Doesn't that sound nice?

Take Step 1.

Excuses, long winded explanations for:

~ why you haven't exposed (you haven't executed proper Plan A if you haven't exposed)

~ why you aren't following Dr Harley's time frame to protect BS's health in Plan A

~ why you need more proof than the WS still working with the OP for contact

~ why ExtraOrdinary Precautions aren't for your situation because you want him to use willpower and not change the conditions that led to his affairs

All of these things are NON NEGOTIABLE if you are serious about using the MB plans.

All of this is HARD to implement, not a cake walk, we get it.

But...there is NO EXCUSE you can use to convince us that you don't need to follow the steps every other BS needs to follow when they get here, PoM. It's a narrow path and we have seen far too many posters come back with unrecovered marriages and more affairs to be distracted.

You are in Plan PoM, not Plan A/B path, which is most likely going to lead to a divorce or more affairs with risk to your health. Lets be clear about that.

This is what I suspect, yes.



I mentioned before...because of where we work he is not uneducated enough in family law to not know what to do next or what his rights are. I will have to file a TOP, he will cross file and then...well, b/c of where we work it just all goes nutty from there. Sure, I can pull the crazy woman thing, have the cops come to the house, make big scene, traumatize my kids the day before Christmas, get Daddy thrown in jail, exercise my power...yeah, not quite there yet.




I have seen neither hair nor hide of OW#2 since that email. And that's ALL I have to go on...there are no phone records, no other emails, no texts, nothing. I have one inappropriate email [from her] to go on. Which btw, he later admitted to inappropriate conversation with her, but nothing more. I know - doesn't mean anything. He did not fight me on NC with her at all. Not proclaiming his innocence, just telling you what I know.



And say what? "I found out WH has been having an A, he has promised to stop and I have no proof that he hasn't stopped as of 14 days ago other than him acting like a jerk and still physically working in the same building with her. Help me convince him to leave his job and change his attitude"?

Most people who don't know about MB would find the measures required (quitting jobs, moving out of state) to be extreme. If I prove that it's still ongoing, I'm not the psycho who can't get over his " brief inappropriate friendship with a co-worker" - kwim? And there goes my ally.

His sister knows. And she has [much to my disappointment] decided to stay quiet. I'm sure it's because the instant I told her, she broke down and confessed to ME that SHE had been having an EA with an old boyfriend (she is married as well) that HER BS discovered it and she ended it. Run in the family much????? Anyway...



Ok... I understand. I guess I am not ready for that yet this very minute, but I am getting there which is why I am preparing for it.


Melody...[if I may pause before putting the cotton balls in my mouth and going back to listening ] believe it or not we are saying the same thing. I know I wouldn't be the one keeping him in the cage. I WOULD be the one putting the gun to his head though and saying "either do it this way or I'm out". Then he would have to want to do it himself and stick to it. My point is that if he doesn't want to do it, I don't want to be married to him anymore.


Exactly. HE has to want to do it. We've discussed it. Not under the seriousness of me actually filing for divorce though. And he would not do it. Nor do I want him to if that's not what he wants. I want a normal husband who can co-exist with women and not cheat so I don't have to worry for the rest of my life. I can do it. Why can't he? Why is that too much to expect? If he tries and proves that he can't, I'm out. Addiction or not. I am not here to cure his addiction. Like the alcoholism analogy... I'm sure people drink around you or you are, at times, in situations where there is temptation around you. You had to learn to function with those temptations still around you to a certain extent. That's what I'm saying he has to do.


I did get one the next morning. Not that he came downstairs where I had slept on the couch that night and begged for forgiveness on his knees - but after some talking, he did apologize for that & everything else he said that night. Again, not saying he's mr. remorseful (because everything still had that air of "you're just being overly sensitive b/c you are pg), just saying what happened.




Step 1: end the affair.

To do so, cages and ultimatums are required here, that's what all the vets are saying:

1 - change work environment to one where there is little to no temptation aka "the cage" (ok, that was just a joking example people, lets not run away with that and use it to call me irrational or uncooperative)

2 - go into Plan B aka the ultimatum; the consensus here is that I should go into plan B now, not later. Plan B requires me to file for D due to the laws and our knowledge of and involvement with the law. Filing for D is definitely an ultimatum or maybe not an ultimatum per se, but instead, taking the first steps to ending my marriage. That is not the MB path to a marriage recovery....which yes, does sound very nice.

Unless you mean:

End the affair = transfer/quit THIS job and find another one. Melody feels strongly that that is not enough and my boundary should be change the entire environment



Yes, I understand that I am not on an MB path or even step one yet. I said that before. Basically I started out and did everything wrong and now I have a plan for moving forward the right way. [I think - that is why it is up for critique]

I'm not going to jump into it half-assed tomorrow or tonight when I have the opportunity to do it right within the next few days (which taking the steps to PROTECT MY OWN JOB, PROTECTING THE LIVING SITUATION AND CUSTODY OF MY CHILDREN, and setting myself up for proper living circumstances TO BRING A NEWBORN BABY HOME TO) ... IF my sanity & strength hold up that long. And yes, I know that is a major concern here. But I guess I just have to suck it up be a little bit stronger for my kids for a little bit longer.

To be clear, the ONLY other option I see here Susie is file for D tomorrow with the full intention of just going through with it. That's not being serious about the MB program either.

Otherwise you are talking about half-assed exposure at work tomorrow which could just get me fired if he {or I} makes me out to look like a lunatic b/c I didn't do it carefully, changing the locks, calling the police when he finds out, filing a restraining order, AND filing for D all tomorrow... 2 days before Christmas. Really not trying to make excuses, just trying to do it all rationally...

Well, yeah, sort of.

How about,

WH has been having an affair with a woman at work. He still works with her and has been hostile to me ever since I told him to stop cheating on me. We both value your input and need your help. I would appreciate your using your influence with him to get him to stop the adultery and commit to this marriage and family. There is too much at stake here and me and the kids need your help.

What they do next is beyond your control, but you have to actually ASK them to intervene and get involved.

I wouldn't leave any stone unturned.

I have to say I think that you are putting way to much stock in his pokerbluff of arrogance. ALL WHs (including mine) know their rights - but following the KEY STAGE OF EXPOSURE they dont want to look like a [censored] who kicks the betrayed party out onto the streets. They also know that the cops are not going to sort out a civil matter so they dont even bother. Get some childcare for the kids if you dont want them there, but there prob wont even be a scene. Just WH struggling to use a key that doesnt work and then trying to call a phone that has been caught off. Then he is what, going to try and sort legal pwork over the holidays? Leave it out PoM. The real reason is that you cant let go yet.



You simply say that he had an affair and refuses to end it. Say that you know it is ongoing, have seen inappropriate messaging and you need support to convince him to end his affair once and for all by ending contact with her.

I didnt have to expose a physical affair, I have no idea what they got up to. I found some texts and simply told one and all they were having an affair and refused to end 'their relationship' when he refused to go NC. You dont have to prove it to a jury. Just ask for support and expose nuclear style.

As soon as he did that everyone leaned on him to end his 'platonic friendship'. What mattered to people was that he was not honouring his wife or marriage - they didnt need a CSI report. Plus even if no one reacts they suddenly have a desperate desire to look like the GOOD GUY.



Filing for a divorce and meaning it IS MB. You have an unrepentant wayward on your hands who is going after your security and property. Dr H says the FIRST thing someone in your shoes should do is to protect their interests.

Unless you get into a Plan B you will be divorcing anyway, so you DO mean it when you file for a D. You mean it and he can only stop it by changing the circumstances which forced you to conclude a D is best while he unrepentant.

You need to show some steel. Addicts dont drop the business of inflicting pain because you say 'please'.

You are getting NOWHERE sitting there dreaming up excuses and 'what ifs'

Yeah but this is trickling the exposure. I didn't do the tsunami of truth properly the first time around - this time I will. That's why I'm waiting. The only remaining people to expose to are the bosses at work and his mother. I'll do them both at the same time.


Exactly. And you are right indiegirl, I am not ready to let go, not just yet. I am building up the steele.

Still not listening to us.....

If you aren't willing to defend your boundaries then you have no boundaries. That is the point. And you still don't get it.


Then you have your answer. So why are you wasting your time with all this other nonsense?


Then your marriage won't recover. It's that simple. In order to recover you must change the environment that made him vulnerable to an affair. Your analogy doesn't work with me, though, because the environment you described was never a temptation for me. The only times I am exposed to drinking situations is when I am with customers or coworkers at business dinners. That was not a temptation for me, and if it was, I would obviously avoid it. If my coworkers/clients want to drink it up after dinner, I politely excuse myself. Real easy. I avoid tempting situations, I am too serious about my sobriety to stay in a tempting situation.

And that is the point, your H will have to change his environment if he is serious. It is apparent he can't work with women.


But you don't have normal husband so your issue is acceptance of reality. You have to accept that he will always be vulnerable to an affair under certain conditions. Will power didn't work in the past and it won't work in the future. You have a husband who is a serial cheater.

You will worry for the rest of your life if he doesn't change his environment so he can't cheat. You say you don't want this or that, but you are unwilling to take even one step to effect such a change. I guess you think it works by magic. Sorry, it doesn't.

No, you are not here to cure his addiction, you are here to protect yourself. And unless he takes steps to protect you from his addiction, guess what? You won't be protected.

But once again, you aren't listening and are wasting poster's time here. You are in Plan POM.

POM --

Do you know what the successful MB couples have?

They recover their marriages through a process that makes the wayward spouse WILLINGLY and HAPPILY do whatever it takes for as long as it takes to put their spouses fears to rest.

You need to start seeing the end game and stop fighting with us about the process.

Everyone comes here thinking their situation is special. Sadly they're not. And yours is not either. Your husband working in a political environment doesn't make it unique. Nor does his knowledge of his rights. Even your pregnancy is something we see all the damn time.

Your husband really seems to have control of you. Do you always doubt yourself and second guess everything? You seem to plot out every response you think he will have, and doubt your ability to influence or control the outcome.

Like your example of how telling your MIL would go down.

This is gonna take some strength and courage. Do you want to save your marriage, are you interested in making it affair-proof?

Warriors do not build swords, they grab them. Grab the sword of exposure, Plan D and Plan B and fight your way out of betrayed hell.

'Building' or rather more accurately 'staying put and doing nothing' will only subject you to more gaslighting while his affair becomes more entrenched.

By the time you pick up those swords, you will be more gaslighted and weaker and the affair will be stronger. So act now.

You are already sounding VERY gaslighted. All you talk about is how strong and clever he is and how nobody would believe you.

If tactictly, we thought doing nothing would make you stronger, thats what we would tell you to do.

Art of War: Appear strong when weak.

You do your exposure with chutzpah - nobody will dare disbeleive you

You tel your h he is luck y to have you and you will CONSIDER giving him a second chance if he impresses you very much.

We can give you a rockin' plan B letter.

I think we are just disagreeing about the timeline here...

I did not want to do this this week because, like I said, Christmas, we had house guests, etc etc. Work is shut down (there is no one there to receive an exposure letter) Many reasons...anyway.

I know I sound gaslighted. I'm not. I'm actually getting stronger day by day and working out the plan. At this point, I already know that I have Plan A'd him to the best of my ability...no LBs...I've been superwoman, supermom, and superwife the past several days. I can move forward knowing that I did more than a decent job of showing him what he'll be missing, showing him a willingness to meet his ENs if the A ends, all the carrot. Time for the stick...

I would like help preparing my Plan B letter if anyone is up for it. Are there samples anywhere? Also...setting up the situation with the kids...not quite sure where to even start with that... Also - since he will be away when this happens, is it better if I just send the letter via email and have no contact with him after it is sent (except through the IM) or is it better if I talk to him on the phone and then send the email?

The ONLY thing I disagree with you guys on is the total change in work environment to one where he cannot be around women at all. That is really just silly. Women are everywhere. If he wants to cheat THAT badly, he's going to find a way. That is not one of MY boundaries for moving forward, that is what some people here have determined is necessary and required. If the only way this man can be married to me and not cheat is by doing that, I don't want to be married to him anyway. Who would want to stay married to someone like that??

I'll be filing for divorce along with Plan B anyway so what's the difference?

POM,

If your husand will agree to MB led recovery, I don't think you need to remove all women from his work environment. As long as you get a husband with a new sense of boundries and appropriate behavior around women.

But he has a long way to go.

Right now, its your job to permanently end his affairs, and get his agreement to YOUR plan for recovery. MB will do the rest.
He needs to buy in to the MB recovery plan 100%

Dr Harley says very clearly that the conditions that made the affair possible need to be changed.

Since your WH has had at least two workplace affairs at his current job, yes, that is at least one condition that would need to be changed if you two are serious about affairproofing and recovering your M.

It sounds to me that you are already anticipating that he will refuse to leave the job or maybe you would just prefer D over him losing his current salary, I dunno.

But these are Dr Harley's own words and we have seen the wisdom in those words play out on these boards over and over again with unrecovered marriages and repeat affairs. You can take it or leave it, but no, you are not going to convince us that you know better than Dr Harley.

And I agree. The MAIN condition that made the affair(s) possible is HIS LACK OF BOUNDARIES with women, regardless of where they work. THAT is the condition that needs to change.

Possible OW#2 worked with him in the PAST, 5 - 6 years ago, actually no, before we were married. He kicked that up long after he left that building.

It's akin to him working at McDonald's in Town A, leaving that McDonald's to work at the McDonald's in Town B. Then kicking up a relationship with a woman from McDonald's A while also kicking up a relationship with a woman from McDonald's in Town B. The problem is NOT McDonald's - its HIM and his lack of boundaries with women, period, regardless of where they work.

Melody hit the nail on the head with that one pages ago.

I've even seen (in the past)borderline inappropriate (nothing like the email exchange with OW #2) communications with old HS female friends. That was swiftly addressed by him giving me his FB password at my request and him cleaning out his friends list voluntarily. And it worked for that angle. I didn't have to remove him from all computer access. Yes, folks, HE is the problem, not JUST the work environment.

Whatever, I hate explaining this because I know it sounds like I'm defending him and I'm not. It's just that the logic is not there if you understand the circumstances. I don't think I know more than Dr. H - my guess is that he would agree that leaving THIS specific job environment (he has now initiated the transfer process with our supervisor) would suffice for THIS affair and that the root cause of the problem (HIM and his lack of boundaries) is what needs to be addressed after that.

My question right now is why? Why does he need to feed his ego SO much with all this female attention? What is the root cause of the problem here? Insecurity? Fear of something?

Anyway... would still love some Plan B letter help... and a sample NC letter. Will search too...

But you are using ONE condition to negate the other so this is not logical. Just because he contacted an old lover, OW#2, who he does not currently work with, does not negate the fact that he had affairs with women he DOES currently work with. Of course he has to tighten his boundaries and leave this specific job. That does not mean he should continue working with females. But that alone will not affair proof the marriage of a serial cheater. He is still not safe in a work environment where he is around females.

The "ROOT CAUSE" of your husband's affairs is the ENVIRONMENT he works in. That is the environment in which he is tempted. The solution is to change the environment. That means he cuts off contact with old lovers AND stops working around women, not either or. Those two conditions do not negate the other as you are attempting to do. Nor is a boundary the same thing as an environment. You change both, not just one. Changing ONE does not change the other. And just changing one will not affair proof your marriage.


If he cheats when he goes into McDonalds, wouldn't the solution be to stop going into McDonalds? If I get hit by a car playing chicken, would the solution be to become a better chicken player? Or would the solution be to get my [censored] out of the road?

POM, all sarcasm aside, I don't believe I have ever seen the spouse of a serial cheater so adamant that her husband continue to work with females. I find that stance astonishing.

If you put half as much energy into finding real solutions that you do in defending the status quo, I bet you would have an affair proof marriage.

Can you focus that energy on finding solutions instead of protecting the status quo?

POM, instead of fighting so hard against everyone, why don't you think about the jobs your WH could have that wouldn't put him so closely with women. While it is true that women are everywhere, there are jobs that have men and women more closely together than others. These types of jobs are obviously ones that your WH isn't capable of being trusted in.

See, all of the people here are fighting for YOU, and for YOUR MARRIAGE. They are fighting harder for your marriage than your WH. They are strangers, and they don't want to see you back here in a few years saying that he has now moved onto OW6.

Do you own the book Surviving An Affair? Many of your questions will be answered there, including a PBL, and NCL. There are also many many threads. Look up the Plan B properly thread in the notables section. Search the NCL, and read some threads that are discussing it to find it.

I have worked almost exclusively with men since 1989. Senninpa's wife has a job where she works exclusively with men. People can start their own businesses [consulting is just one idea] and structure it where they are not working side by side with the opposite sex. But one has to be willing to put more energy into finding solutions than they do in finding excuses why they can't do something and see the latter here. But thats ok! Its not my marriage to lose.