I get it, I really do. I'm not going to continue explaining or defending or putting energy into that.

Hypothetical (and sorry if the answer is in SAA, I'm still waiting for mine):

Lets say we do the NC letter, mail it, and she STILL calls/tries to communicate. Let's say she calls right away to ADDRESS the letter since it will be an abrupt end to the A and noticeably influenced by me, the BW - then what? WH ignores the call, but I saw it, she KNOWS I saw it and clearly doesn't care. I would tell her BS, of course, but what if they are done anyway and he doesn't even care anymore?

In other words, it is a "what if" until/if it happens. Chances are, contact will stop.

If you take the precautions, your H will have all the telephone numbers changed and there will be no chance of that. If perchance she gets through, then YOU answer the phone.

more than a loaded gun, it's a red-herring... not relevant because it's not happening.

Really, PoM, do you think we or Dr Harley is ignorant of the fact that waywards have poor boundaries?

After my STBX had his second workplace affair (third overall affair), Dr Harley did not tell me "Your H needs to fix his boundaries". He told me we have to look at making lifestyle changes ~ one of them being that STBX probably couldn't work in his profession anymore due to his interaction with women.

I also don't understand all this resistance. Doesn't your H work with two of his OW anyway? He will have to leave that job regardless. Do you acknowledge this or do you think he can stay there somehow?

Two things, PoM.

1) Maybe email Dr H about the serial cheater thing. He has prob seen many couples jump this 'unrealistic' barrier you keep balking at. I am sure he could give some tips. I think he can also better explain the difference between a serial cheater - who is addicted to ANY WOMAN and therefore has NO boundaries and a one-time cheater who became addicted to ONE WOMAN through LOOSE boundaries. With a serial cheater, fixing the boundaries does not prevent or fix the addiction, it is already present..

It is like trying to cure a cat of the urge to hunt mice. The only way is to keep it away from mice.

2)I get the impression you personally do not want him to change jobs. Is this because of his earning potential? If so, say so candidly. If you would rather be divorced and him paying support from this salary, I couldnt blame you for that. His salary has never let you down and he has. Every BS has the right to bail and to decide whether the recovery conditons are too steep for her.

Dr Harley has done a good job of explaining the difference between serial cheaters and one time cheaters in the radio clip I posted. He has also explained hundreds of times since 2006 that the solution is to change one's ENVIRONMENT along with their boundaries. It can't be either or. Said it again TODAY, said it yesterday. Says it almost every day.

He has told me this personally - on the radio clip I posted - and he has told Susie this same thing personally. He has said it over and over and over again. He explained it in his articles and his books.

I don't think hearing it one more time after he has explained 1000 times is going to do the trick if the listener is not willing to listen.

The main issue I see here is that POM believes that the same expertise [her own] that led her marriage into the ditch can drag it out. And as long as she insists on believing that, her marriage will stay in ditch.

I hate to say it, but I fear she is alot like me. Her only educator is PAIN and LOSS. She has to go through the School of Hard Knocks to ever get anything. That is sad for her children.

That's what I wanted to know.




No, he works with one of them. The other one is with the same general employer - they USED TO work in the same building years and years ago. They have zero reason to communicate professionally anymore, no work functions where they would both need to be, etc etc. She is in a town 45 mins away - it's as good as if she worked for someone else. The same company cuts all our checks, that's all.

What I would prefer is for him to transfer to the building right next to mine. That is the transfer he has applied for.


Also, speaking of... can we get back to this serial cheater thing for a moment... we have deemed him a serial cheater based on the one email I found from possible OW#2. Have not heard anything about or from her since. It's been weeks... he didn't fight me on NC with her AT ALL. I'm NOT trying to defend his actions or his "friendship" with her at all, I definitely think it was inappropriate judging by that email, but is it possible that that one was not an affair and not enough to classify him as a serial cheater?



I think I will, thank you.


Not exactly but you definitely make a good point. Some conditions can be too steep. It's not so much the salary, it's the security and the benefits. That and because there are so many places to move WITHIN the company that would still remove him from the situation and change the environment that it really makes more sense to keep the job.

But I think the best reason is... we work in the same department - I couldn't possibly have better monitoring potential on him than I do now. We report to the same supervisors so there's no messing with time (i.e. he could NEVER get away with telling me he's working and actually take the day off to have affair time) he is so accountable in every action here. I know what his daily tasks are, I know where he is supposed to be and who he is supposed to be with at *almost* all times, I have lots of access to computer information and surveillance if I need. I legitimately have keys to his office for crying out loud and can legitimately pop in on him at almost any time - WHY would I give that up!

For example - today - he's home, not at work, I was able to thoroughly search his office for an affair phone, any evidence of contact with OW, etc and I was legitimately supposed to be there. If he goes to work for NoGirlsAllowed Inc tomorrow but the daily fedex chic that stops in for 5 mins makes his radar, how would I ever know? At least here it's just a matter of time before I would find out.


I thought I listened to it but I will go back and check again (it wasn't the one about how repeated contact with the OP was worse than rape?)

So your answer is: No, he doesn't have to leave this job.

That set up sounds pretty good to me, accountability-wise, but if OW is still there, he will be triggered constantly and never get through withdrawal.

So that scenario cannot even be attempted.

Even if OW was to move to mars, there are still some probs...

1) Would he have to work closely, i.e. in partnership with any women?
2) Would you make it a condition under your EPs that his workplace must ALWAYS be transparent and checkable, and that he must not work closely with any women, in the future?
3) I take it these conditions did not prevent the affairs originally, what would be different?

This is not my field of expertise so I will yield to the vets on the floor, but it seems as though the support of your managers will be key in keeping EPs.

The APs would need to be separated by management and legal should come down on them hard for inappropriate behaviour. You would also need the workplace's support in abiding by your wishes that he not work closely with any women.

There have been some managers spoken of here who have been supportive of this (it keeps the company out of sexual harrassment claims, not to mention people's mind on the job)If you work in a culture where a blind eye would be turned to affairs, however, you both need to get out.

You answered this earlier in this thread yourself:


There are WSs who, oops, don't realize the slippery slope of talking/flirting, enough LB$ deposits are made, they fall in love & become addicted to OP/the affair.

There are other cheaters (serial) who are addicted to getting their needs met outside of M ~ they get a zing/boost from flirting and cheating in general.

Your H is clearly the latter.

But honestly, I am getting tired of arguing with you PoM. Let us know if you actually want to implement MB. Yes, he will have to leave that job and yes, he will have to make radical lifestyle changes.

Point taken. If he turns out to be the latter, *I* want to divorce him. Period. I don't have the time, patience, or inclination to try and cure that kind of man, even if he is the father of my children. By your siggy, I would guess you felt the same.


Then don't argue with me Susie and lets focus on the next step: plan b instead of insisting on this or that criteria that is not MY criteria for making this work. Again, going by your sig, I would guess that MB didn't work for your serial cheater either so I don't quite understand why you are such an advocate of following it to a T. (yes I know - MB is not just for saving your marriage)

If you are right, and he is just a serial cheater, that's exactly where I'm headed anyway - divorce. The difference is will I make the choice to divorce him for myself because I realize who he is within a few weeks, or will I waste years of my life trying rehabilitate someone who can't be rehabilitated.

I asked for help with a Plan B letter and an NC letter - is that not wanting to implement MB? If it wasn't for MB, I don't know where I'd be right now. So believe me, I'm listening.


Correct. For me it would suffice for him to transfer out of the building that she works in so he no longer has anything to do with her. Our job does not require us to work closely with anyone. And read on...


If he changes buildings she won't be there.


1 - no, our jobs don't require that

2 - that is the condition set forth now and he is [so far] sticking to it - I have access to his office, his work email, his work computer passwords, etc

3 - he was not transparent about his work email before and I *trusted* him so I never questioned his "friendships" with other women in the building, nor did I ever exercise my abilities to check up on him because I trusted him. The difference now would be that he would have to fix his boundary issues AND maintain that transparency. And that I would be filling the ENs I wasn't before...

I dunno... he USED to have good boundaries... he used to tell me everything and never fall for other women's bullsh!t and kept them always at a distance...was very respectful of my feelings and our relationship WITHOUT my ever asking. I believe he can do it again - that's the man I fell in love with and that's the one I want back. If that's not him anymore, see ya.

I'm fairly confident that if this plays out the way I think it will, I *will* have management on my side on this one.

There is no point (to me) in helping you with Plan B when you are not following the MB plans to begin with.



Call me sensitive, but this was not a very nice thing to say to someone who is trying to help you AVOID the pain of FR and more affairs.

MB did work for me ~ my STBX was not willing to do what it took to really recover and affairproof our M and I am much MUCH better off in a D than in a crippled M.

Obviously I am not getting through to you, maybe someone else will be able to. Good luck.

That is so disrespectful I am shocked. Susie doesn't have to post to you and put up with your disrespect. MB "doesn't work" when one spouse won't work it. It has to be worked in order to work. When one spouse refuses to do the things necessary to recover a marriage, the solution is to go into Plan B. Which Susie has done. You should not be under any illusions that MB has the power to FORCE your husband to recover your marriage. Heck, it doesn't even have the power to force you to use it as evidenced by the fact that you are refusing to use it.

"Your criteria" led your marriage into the ditch. So why would you follow that criteria? Why would you even be discussing Plan B until you have done the things necessary to save your marriage? I don't know and I don't really want to know. I am talking out loud because I am so disgusted to see this disrespect to people who are taking time out of their lives to help you. I don't blame Susie for excusing herself and believe I will follow her lead.

I was hoping you didn't take it that way. I'm sorry, it was not my intention to offend. Just to point out that I know where I'm headed if this doesn't work. I can only try, MB is not a guarantee either.

I haven't read your entire thread closely, but I think I know what you are saying....that you don't WANT to try and work it out (which is your right) if he is a serial cheater.

I think (but not speaking for anyone!) that what has some upset is your attempt to cobble together your own plan.

Basically, either full marriage or full divorce.

I determined immediately that I was married to a serial cheater. I went straight to plan D. I knew I didn't want to spend the rest of my life married to such a man.

Do you?

And with this disrespect, I am OUT. As you see from my siggy, my WH isn't a serial cheater(that I am aware anyways) and I guess by your standards, MB didn't "work" for me either.

You can learn a lot on this site about the tools you need to use. You can also learn it from the book SAA. I wish you luck, and hope you are able to find peace in your life.

Correct. THANK YOU for understanding. So I want to see if we can get into recovery without meeting the requirements for a serial cheater. If that does not work because he is a serial cheater then I am out.

I think what everyone is saying is that he clearly IS a serial cheater so there is no other way. In that case, Melody is right and I will have to learn that the hard way and that's when I'm out.

What I don't understand is how I'm making my own plan. I did not follow MB correctly at first, so now I am starting
over and trying to do it right.


This is where I am. The A is not over because he still works with her. Correct?


After the first D-day, I was a mess. LBs all over the place. Fixed that now, Plan A'd him without LBs.



This FINALLY just happened last night. We had a long talk and he has finally admitted his feelings for her. He admitted that he was in love with her (or thought he was). I guess it's progress. He's no longer minimizing the affair. 8 weeks later. Finally.

Not quite sure what to do with this though. It's not something we haven't both known all along - it's just never been said out loud. Do I play it down? Leave it alone? Stop talking about it now? The one thing I do know is that now that he has FINALLY admitted that, he can no longer use BS and the minimizing tactic to avoid sticking to the EPs he must take and continue to take.


In my case: doesn't just leave the job, is waiting patiently for a transfer that could take months and will probably not be able to avoid seeing her or talking to her at work. More accurately, is probably intentionally carrying on the A at work.

If he is making feeble attempts at NC:


i.e. What will inevitably happen because they still work together.


What must happen next. What I am preparing for.

I don't know what else to do here.

Pretend nothing has gotten through. Humor me once more and tell me step by step what I should do. At this point I am very confused as to what is the MB plan and what is the PoM plan.


From what I gather:

I am not in Plan A, yet I can't Plan B because because Plan A was not done. Yet some people are saying I should already be in Plan B. Yet there's no point in doing that until I demand/force/insist that WH quit his job and change his work environment completely to not work with women yet *I* don't want that so therefore I must not want to save my marriage, so therefore I am not following any MB program, so therefore I am in plan PoM so I'm headed for divorce anyway with no chance for recovery - yet part of what should be my Plan B will be filing for divorce anyway.


At this point, going by all the different replies here, the only way I would be doing the right thing is by:

Exposing to his mother and work (the only two things left)

Demanding that he change the work environment to one where he does not work with women

AND kicking him out of the house until he does with a plan b letter.

If I don't do those 3 things IMMEDIATELY I am arguing the path, and fighting all those who want to help me, correct?

Do I have that close to right?

Like I said before, I'll just keep asking questions and those who want to help will reply. Those who are done with me, I'm sure it's my loss. I appreciate the time and energy you've put in to helping me this far, I really do.

Yes to both.


Yes, one of them will have to leave the job.


If he refuses to end the affair and get with the program, then I would ask him to leave and go into Plan B.


Yep, pretty much

Look, if you don't want to stay married to this guy and want to just divorce and get on with your life, we'd all understand. But if you'd like to see if this can be turned around, then I think you have the main bullet items already and know what you have to do.

Either way, we'd support you.

I will speak for the many trying to advise you. Hope I am not out of line.

There a several posting to you that have a lot of experience. They have seen hundreds (thousands?) like you come here, all thinking they were unique, me included. They have learned the MB plan and know what it is and have laid it out to you.

You are doing something different, by definition that is following your own plan. I don't think the people can advise you on that because only you know what that is. The frustration comes because you ask for MB help and only want to incorporate bits and pieces and expect it to function.

MB is not the "right thing" to do as you put it. It is a plan, well developed, proven by fire plan that will get you a recovered marriage OR (and this is a big OR) a recovered you.

You still seem to want tactics that will make your H straighten up and fly right and want the people on here to wave the magic MB wand and tell you how to do it.

Ain't gonna happen. He will make is own decisions. You are letting him not decide and think that staying married, even if he may not physically cheat on you again = recovered marriage. They are not necessarily the same.

MB is a structured plan with well documented steps and a concrete goal. That is a healthy you, whether married or not. It is not a free form set of concepts that can be adjusted to fit the situation. That presupposes that all situations are different, where MB recognizes that, at the core, they are not.

So, good luck with your plan. There is more than one way to skin a cat. The folks on here only know the way that is proven to work and is structured to be followed. They are not making it up as they go.