The_Q, there is a recreational enjoyment questionaire in the questionaires section. Have you seen it? Have you read the article on friends and enemies of good conversation? There is plenty here you can use to drum up conversation between the two of you.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4500_resource.html

edit to add link to the questionaires.

Oh and here is the article on "when conversation becomes boring" from the "how to meet emotional needs" section of the Q&A area.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5056_qa.html

I agree that your husband has to stop the PC addiction.
But also think about what he gets from the PC games and figure out how you can meet those needs.
He may feel part of a team. He may feel admired. He may feel like he is acheiving goals. What things can you do together that make him feel that way as well?

MNG - I will look a those articles, It's been a while since I read through a lot of these.

wannabophim - that's a good point, I will have to think about how to address those, maybe the articles MNG suggested will help with that.

thanks everyone, I can't tell you how much I appreciate these insights and suggestions.

Thats all information he can get from many other places, such as radio, books, newspapers, TV. Since he has an addiction problem with the computer, I would get him off it completely. OR another thing you could do is just have one family computer that is set up [only you have the password] so you can only go on TOGETHER. Arrange it so you are right there watching movies or reading news together.

Movies? From where? Netflix? Hulu? (Pirated?)

For the streaming services you could look into a Roku box. The Xbox also does a lot of these services, and the Kinect... There are some fun RC opportunities with that (2 player fruit ninja is a blast!).

In writing this letter to him, what all should I be including? should I include ideas of how he could be making love bank deposits?

should I point out how our home or family is affected?

since gaming is the problem how far do I take it? when he hooks up with his friends they play D & D and magic which are physical games but the ones on the PC mean that he doesn't have to put in the same time commitment. I don't know this suddenly feel like a very complicated thing to address let alone resolve. maybe I need to sleep on this to get my thoughts straightened out...

Do I make it a stipulation of our relationship that he meets the 20hrs/week of UA first and only then he can play with his friends?

currently they meet every friday night for approx 4-6hrs, usually it ends up being magic or board games. however they just started playing D & D again(huge time commitments there) but they are talking about only playing it once or twice a month on a saturday (our only real family day) for approx 10-12hrs. so he is essentially gone for that day. He does understand that going out on friday night and then again on saturday is too much so they make it a trade off. he stays home on that friday and goes out on saturday instead.
very few of his other friends are even in relationships, only 2 of them are married(to each other), and none of them have kids. So none of them are in even a similar situation to understand that it's not acceptable to behave the same way you do as a bachelor as you do when you have a family... and this is where he finds his support for his habits as well. *pulls hair out*

If I'm going to address his gaming addiction I have to address it in it's entirety and have a solution for how to deal/handle the whole thing or there is no point addressing it at all.

I would say that any game your not included in ... doesnt happen. Period. Hence the policy of JOINT AGREEMENT (NEVER DO ANYHTING WITHOUT AN ENTHUSIASTIC AGREEMENT BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR SPOUSE) Until you guys are both in love again.

If his friends are encouraging him to not be at home? this is TOXIC to your marriage. Possibly time to get some new friends who share the same values as you do or ask them to all come over and play at YOUR place after his responsibilities are taken care of that way you can play too (provided your ENTHUSIASTIC) Dont forget though that the POJA is DOUBLE SIDED... his opinion counts too but the default is DO NOTHING until you can both be happy about whatever it is that your negotiating.

here is some more articles that may help you.
independant behaviour - http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5053b_qa.html

Plan A and Plan B - http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

When to call it quits - http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_quit.html

3 States of mind in marriage - http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3600_state.html

Policy of Joint agreement - http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html

Policy of undivided attention - http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_attn.html

Read through my thread Q ... make your hubby a letter that explains your feelings and how you are falling out of love and want to have a loving and FULFILLING marriage with your husband. Tell him that if the way things are continue that you WILL seperate from him because his independant behaviour is very inconsiderate to how you feel and how the kids feel. Tell him you know of a plan so that you BOTH can get what you BOTH want. SHow him the policiy of joint agreement (print it out) and tell him you want to live by it and that his excessive gaming is no longer acceptable and that it never has been and now your to the point that it is making you want to leave him. Tell him he has to make a PERMANENT change in regards to his gaming and his time spent with you otherwise your love for him will just fade away and who wnats to be in an unhappy marriage? Post your letter here before you give it to him so the vets can make sure it gets the point across respectfully. They will help you (as they already asked you to do)

There should be NO MORE SACRIFICING. No more If you let me do this I will let you do that ideology. That builds and creates resentment. neither one of you should gain at the others expense EVER. Do a stellar PLAN A but prepare for a PLAN B. Your mariage is the most important thing in the world! Even more important than your kids needs being met! Without happy parents the home is in a state of stress and the kids know it! If your hubby cant put on his big boy undies and grow up and be a father and a husband then he needs to go. Its very unfair to YOU and your KIDS that you guys are neglected because he wants to act single ... but have the benefits of marriage that only make HIM feel good. ITs TIME to stand your ground (respectfully no arguing) and if he doenst like it ... thats too bad then obviously he doesnt want to be married to you.

(vets if i am off on this .. plz correct me)

MNG


edit for minor details

I just wanted to note that I am the friend that sent The_Q here (she didnt know MNG was me until today). My wife and I know The_Q from high school and we want her to have a thriving marriage. One that she can be proud of.

MNG

I don't know that I would say that they are encouraging him to not be at home... they just want him to hang out with them. now if that means the same thing then yes. I used to go with him but once we had kids these other environments and situations weren't adequate to accommodate the presence of children. It was more stressful than anything to take them with us and having a babysitter wasn't very feasible.
I used to think if we just moved away then he would have no choice but to make new friends. apparently 40min away isn't far enough to deter him from going to see them. He is extremely slow to make new friends. we've been here 4 years now and he's only starting to feel somewhat relaxed here. We have invited them over but most of them don't drive. the one couple now lives only 20 min away and once or twice a year they will come over to our place, but more often than not he goes out there.
So I stayed home with the kids instead to make sure their needs were being met. Currently we can do a babysitter but only if we absolutely have to. grandparents are allowed to have the children over night once a month. H tends to go out on those nights regardless and says I thought this would give you some good alone time, so you can do whatever you want. or we're just going to be playing magic and I know you don't really enjoy that so just enjoy your time to yourself with no kids. I'm not sure how that makes any sense... if I spend every waking moment with the kids and seldom with my H, then doesn't it stand to reason that when the kids are gone I would rather catch up on time missed with H then spend it alone?

now I haven't finished reading through everything but...
are you saying that I should treat his addiction like a lover?

Then, sir, I suggest you do your best to be a friend to the marriage, and not the friend to a friend.

Q - what kinds of things did you two BOTH enjoy doing together BEFORE you had children?

HHH thanks! .. I agree .. i told her on FB that she needed to talk here .. Hence why i sent her here. I cant be the one to totally guide her due to creating a contrast effect. my wife is aware I talked to her and I showed her all our messages .. but yes I know .. i just wanted to get her off on the right foot and get you guys to guide her. She needs all the help she can get. I would like to see her marriage thrive!

HHH think I should stay off the thread? Is it contrasting to be involved here? Sorry .. i just want to see her helped.

TheQ, how is the letter coming along? Another big problem I see is the time he spends away from you playing D&D with his friends. That cannot possibly be good for your marriage and I would ask him to give that up. It might not be so bad if you were getting 20 hours of UA time a week, but you are not.

In the letter I would ask him to commit to 20 hours of UA time per week, since this program won't work without that step.

You've done well so far in sticking to strict MB articles.

alright, I have pieced together a letter....


Dear bear,

I feel like our relationship has crumbled and fallen apart. The love that brought us together has all but gone. We have reached a point where we are not emotionally connected but rather 2 entities existing in the same place. The children feel/see this too. I see it in the confusion on their faces when we are together; they crave your attention so much that when you are at tentative to them it�s always a big deal. Or when we have company over and you come down they are all over you, not me, they see me all the time and they get all the undivided attention they need from me. For me however it has had the opposite affect over the years. When I see you I don�t want your affection, when you come close I back away, you no longer have a place in my personal space. I mourn the loss of our relationship on a regular basis. That is not to say that it is gone for good or that it cannot be recovered. Where you spend your time is also where your relationship lays. At the moment your time is with your computer and gaming. Until that changes then there can be no relationship with me. My love bank is below empty and I have nothing left to give. I have no feelings of love for you, or patience. My love bank is in the red and has been for quite some time, this has manifest it self by the couple of times I have come to the brink of ending our relationship by kicking you out or not being able to find the strength or will to come home.

I remember a year after we had started dating, riding my bike home from work and still getting those butterflies and feelings of excitement when I saw your car parked outside my house. Most people get those feeling for the first 3-6 months, and that had held true in any relationship I had ever been in before, but not with you. I knew I wanted to be with you because those feeling had been there longer than ever before. Every time we were together your attention was on me and you filled my love bank, and I wanted to do things for you, to express those feelings I had for you. I wish I had known then what I know now� As gaming became part of our relationship it slowly replaced me. I still tried to give all I had before but I felt there was no return on my deposits. Eventually I stopped making deposits too. My love bank went dry and my attachment to you was replaced by anger and resentment. You made your deposits with your games and friends. You always say that men go into a relationship not wanting anything to change, and women go into a relationship thinking how they can change him. To that statement I have always said that it doesn�t make any sense because life changes and you need to change with the circumstances or get left behind. I would say that I was happy with the way things were until you changed them. It didn�t bother me so much when it was just the 2 of us and we could spend our time together whenever we wanted and however we wanted. However with the arrival of children in our home you cannot expect things to stay the same. You have to change to accommodate the needs of the children, and suddenly our time together now has limits and dimensions it never had before. The trick is figuring out to make things work within those new parameters.

Where did things go wrong? How do we get it back? Do you want it back? I know I want it back very badly, but you cannot jump right into intimacy and expect it to fix everything. I don�t even want you to touch me right now, in any way.

This last week has been nice in places. When you finished reading your book and we were able to discuss it together, even though I hadn�t read the book myself we were still able to share ideas on talk about the concepts presented, which led to other discussions we haven�t had in a very long time. Over time it feels kind of like we have nothing left to talk about but isn�t that one of the thing you liked most about me�that I was interesting? I know that I can�t keep up to your understanding of science and physics but that doesn�t mean that I don�t enjoy talking about it or learning about it through you in small doses, or sharing how I have developed an understanding of some of these concepts naturally.
I enjoy our time together that we spend watching shows at night, that in itself gives us something else to talk/laugh about, but it seems like the time you want to spend with me doing that has become a case of what is the shortest show possible so you can get back to what you were doing before.
Friday night was the first time in a very long time that you have even considered that I might want to come with you or join you in your activities with your friends, even if it was a game night. I had fun playing a board game with you and the others. It fell apart for me though when you decided to play magic and I have no interest in that game so I sat there knitting and watching your brother play video games basically waiting for you to finish so that we could be us again.
That time last year that we went for the weekend to the springs was wonderful, but it wasn�t enough. It was enough for that week, but if the time we spend together is not maintained them the feeling quickly diminishes, as it did.
Recently you have spent a little more time with the kids wrestling and horsing around and that is good to see, they need you just as much as I need you.

Our relationship is not going to make it if something doesn�t change. You have always said that you are not worried about us and that we will be together forever. When I am at the brink of despair over our relationship I don�t know how you can think that, I have never been certain of that but when we were married I had hope that it could be. That�s not good enough, I want it to be a thriving relationship that sets the precedent for the children of how a marriage/home is supposed to be, and to be able to emulate good, strong, and healthy habits in their own relationships as they get older. That can only happen if we show them how. I think we have always set a good example of dealing with conflict in that we have always been able to talk calmly about things when they come up. However, there needs to be more� much more.
I have been trying to figure out for years how to save our marriage, I don�t want to see the kids suffer through a split family situation, but I don�t want them growing up an abusive home either, that is really only abusive because of neglect. I have mentioned marriage builders to you before and tried to get you to look at it but you weren�t very interested. I propose giving it another chance and to fully immerse ourselves in the structure they have set out. It�s all based on mutual respect, and I believe it will work.

The 2 most important things that I can see that we need to make our relationship thrive is time and agreement. By these I mean that the children need 20hrs/wk with you, 20hrs/wk with me, and you and I need 20hrs/wk to spend with each other outside of the kids. We can�t make love bank deposits if we aren�t in each other�s company. The other one is for both of us to stop doing anything that does not have the enthusiastic agreement of the other. To follow the Policy of Joint Agreement (Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse) as presented by the Marriage builders program. They have lots of other things that affect a thriving relationship but I think these are the 2 most important ones that need immediate attention.

I know that this will be difficult for you as this is not what you are in the habit of doing, but I am here and I want to help you through this and make permanent positive changes in our home for everyone. I know your thinking �great this means I have to give up gaming� and your right. It is an addiction that has plagued our home for far too long. I know you don�t see it that way but you have proven to me time and time again that it is. Your other though must be how this is going to affect your time out with your friends, and yes that will be affected too. The thing that you should be thinking is what is more important? Your marriage or your gaming/friends? This doesn�t mean that you will never see them again but it does mean that the parameters of the time you spend with them will. when you do it will only be once the 20hrs/wk with each other has been met and it will not be to feed your addiction. If this means that they need to come to our home to participate in a game night then so be it. Your friends don�t need your deposits, I do, and we are more important that your friends or the computer. If I need to I can put a lock on your computer so you aren�t tempted to use it. It is also interfering with your ability to control your insomnia, which then interferes with your ability to function for work or with the family.

I think if we work together we can find ways to meet any and all of our needs together.

Q, several posts have had a "flag" raised as I've read your thread.

The children seem to come up a lot, and you said that "babysitting is a problem."

Your M isn't going ANYWHERE until that changes.

Also, your children do not need 20 hours a week. The recommended time for FC (Family Commitment) is 15 hours per week. Your children are not trying to create romantic love with their father.

Has anyone yet linked the article "Caring for Children Means Caring for Each Other" for you?

I STRONGLY suggest that you read that article before you give your H this letter - which has a strong amount of focus on the children.

FC is an emotional need, and having that need met is important... however, it is going to be MORE IMPORTANT that YOU make the decision to prioritize your marriage OVER YOUR CHILDREN. That means if you don't get 15 hours of FC time in so that you can get in 20+ hours of UA time, then it is WHAT HAS TO BE DONE.

Poking and prodding your husband off of the computer is not going to work IF YOU DO NOT MAKE YOUR MARRIAGE YOUR TOP PRIORITY AS WELL!

I'll bet dollars to dimes this is why your prior attempt to get him to stop failed - because he got off the computer to still come behind domestic responsibility and the children... he was "jonesing" because the alternative wasn't nearly as pleasant.

Are YOU ready to make your marriage YOUR number 1 priority as you request your husband does?

This means solving the babysitting issue. Your 20+ hours of UA are best spent outside of the home WITHOUT your children.


Caring for Children Means Caring for Each Other;

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_care.html

Agree with HHH. I would write the letter and eliminate all the disrespectful judgements. Simplify it to something like this:

Dear Bob, I love with you all my heart and want so much for us to have a happy marriage. I am desperately unhappy and consider the future of our marriage unhopeful at this point. I have to be honest and tell you I don't know how much longer I will remain in this marriage unless something changes.

I know I have made mistakes in the past and failed to make you happy in some respects. [give some examples]

I so want us to have a happy, romantic, loving marriage where we are both satisfied and in love. I do want to make you happy and am willing to do what it takes to achieve this. I know how we can get that again, if we can both make appropriate changes.

I am willing to make these changes to make you happy and am asking that you make changes too.

I am asking that you make the following changes:

1. stop playing games on the computer and get rid of your computer. Commit to never going on the computer unless it is you and me together reading news, emails or watching movies

As it is now, I feel that I come second place to your computer and this hurts me terribly.

2. commit to spending 20 hours per week with me ALONE focusing on conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment.

This step is essential to the rebuilding the romantic love in our marriage.

3. commit to going through the Marriage Builders program with me.

Please think about what I have said and lets go out to dinner and discuss it. I love with all my heart.

TheQ

Q, this is critical to understand. If he gets off the computer he will have a big vacuum in his life. It HAS to be filled with something he loves and enjoys. THAT NEEDS TO BE YOU!!! It needs to be you and your undivided attention - with no children around.

I GET that you want him to be a part of the children's lives, but FIRST fix your marriage and learn to use the POJA and the DS need can be addressed then.