I have been with my husband for 11 years, we have 2 beautiful boys. He grew up with his mom doing everything for him and I always wanted to be a stay at home mom and I think he pictured the leave it to beaver household where the dad works, mom cleans & cooks, dad eats and kisses the kids goodnight and his part is done. I hate cooking but love baking. since I was diagnosed with diabetes though I've had to cut that part of my life out. He is great with the kids when he actually spends time with them. we have never "fought" the way I hear most people talk about it. we have our issues but we sit down and talk about the problem and try to find a solution together. he admits that if there is a way out doing something though he will either procrastinate it or think his way out of doing it. Yes he is an intellect. I have suggested counselling but he doesn't think we need it. I have tried to tell him that if we do it before we need it, it may just help prevent us from reaching that point. he disagreed.
I recently "blew up" I pinpointed what my needs were and tried to convey that to him, along with what I need to feel like my needs are being met. he nodded and agreed and I felt good that I had gotten it out and that he was now aware of exactly what I needed and could now take action. Once again though he just can't seem to bring himself to do what is necessary to not dissapoint me. He listens to me but I don't feel like he's really listening. it's almost like as if he's listens just so I can clear the air, feel better, and move on; but if talking doesn't change anything then what's the point in talking. I know that suppressing things is not healthy and I'm trying really hard not to shut myself down. I even tell him in the moment how things need to change and he just brushes it off. for example - I will point out that the playground we just arrived at is not age appropriate for the little one. but rather than say ok let's find a better playground that both the kids can play at he brushes it off so he doesn't have to do anything about it. but then I grow resentful that in order for anything to happen I'm the one that has to do everything! all the time!!!! He behaves like a child or a bachelor but expects to be treated like an adult and equal member of the family. He gets home from work and goes to his room to play on the pc. I have to call him to come down to dinner and to do anything else with the family. he ignores clean up unless I get on his case about it. I need him to be the man that the kids can look to for an example, an dI just don't feel like he is that man. The resentment I feel just builds and I think I hate him. I haven't loved him for years but I haven't told him that, and now I think it has turned to hate.

I have come to the edge a couple of times ready to kick him out. I have tried to implement the tactics from the basic concepts but he doesn't think there is a problem and therefore sees no reason to try to fix it. I am currently 6 months pregnant and virtually on bed rest/in pain all the time. I need him to help pick up some of the slack that I'm simply not capable of doing right now. I feel like a single parent most of the time. I have asked my church for help but their solution is to not help thus forcing him into a corner leaving him no choice but to step up. with this pregnancy he has actually agreed to help out a bit but as time goes on I can see he grows resentful and I get attitude any time I ask him for anything. Yes he has an addiction to the computer/gaming.

the problem is he's not willing, and all the effort to make it work is one sided. he sits in his room and isolates himself from the rest of the family, so if anyone wants anything to do with him they have to go upstairs to get him and then he gets moody if I ask anything of him. It's hard for me to be up and down the stairs all the time right now and I've had no voice for 3 weeks. I'm just getting my energy and voice back now to be able to deal with stuff again. I usually send the kids to be messengers for me just to make life a little easier. I really don't know how to keep it up when it's so one sided. I feel like I have nothing to give anymore, and he can't even throw me a bone. I feel like a single parent all the time, I just want him out.

We are currently taking a marriage and family relationship course as instructed by our church leader, I feel like I'm just biding my time though until the baby comes and this relationship ends...

sorry for any redundancies, I copy and pasted a couple parts from other conversations I've had.

You sound exactly as I did the first 10 years of our marriage. Now we're going on 20! and my H is moving out a second time. So who needs advice from me right ;p The main thing I got from your post was your focus on his shortcomings. I have learned to take real ownership for my part in helping to kill what love we had. I focused on the things H couldn't measure up to. I now see I didn't allow love and respect to grow either. We were both ill-equipped to marry happily, to say the least. You can hold onto that resentment and blame and disappointment for years but I am living proof it does nothing but add pain. Offer to him that you have had a part in your disconnection (as hard as it may be to believe;) and vow to start creating the marriage you both can be proud of. Work on the questionnaires together. And repeat to yourself, do I want this to work or do I want to be right. Take care and congrats on your pregnancy, I never could get pg and look up to you women, particularly the bedridden. I guess just because it's all so unreal to me.

Hi TheQ, welcome to Marriage Builders. The problem is that you and your H have fallen out of love. You are both extremely disrespectful to each other and it is destroying your marriage.

This program can turn that around if you use it. I don't know of any other marriage program that actually succeeds in restoring the romantic love in marriage. But, he is not likely to be interested if you present this program as a way to change HIM. I would read up and sell it by showing him how it will benefit him.

Check this out: How to Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts and Restore Love to Your Marriage

p.s. I would hit the notify button and ask the mods to move this thread to the MB101 forum. You are not getting divorced.

Welcome to MB, sorry you are here. However, this is the BEST place to be to give you the hope you need. Your marriage is very salvageable.

I am very glad ML (melodylane) noticed your thread .. she is one of the best here and if you follow her advice she will not steer you wrong.

I will add though that I feel your husband may be having an emotional affair if he is glued to his PC. I would do some snooping to see what his activities are on it IE: install a keylogger on his PC while he is at work and have it send you the repots of all his keystrokes and screen shots of what he is looking at etc. At the very least he has an addiction to online gaming and that is unhealthy for a married couple.

Stick around, read some thread and articles and such .. and ask more questions. You will get all the support you need here. If you snoop and find something you dont like? Bring it here for the vets to help you with a plan on what to do about it but DO NOT confront your husband with it yet or tip him off on how your finding out.

MNG

I have a friend that said his wife wasn't interested in this stuff either so he decided he would just implement and eventually she saw a change in him and wanted to know more.

I thought I would try that too but I feel like it just back fires on me. I try to implement this stuff but H just doesn't see that there is a problem, and now that I think about it, why would he if I'm always meeting his needs and and he has to do is just sit there and be the recipient.

I have a really hard time with the 15hrs time together thing. he grew up in a family that didn't interact so much. Everyone spent their time in their own room and only interacted if someone came to them or someone needed something. I don't want the children picking up on his addiction so we've isolated it to a small room that isn't big enough for 2 people. however in doing so he isolates himself. I spend all my time in the main area of the house so that I am available for him anytime. he comes out for 1/2 - 1hr after the kids go to bed to watch a show together and then he's done. we've tried playing board games and such together in the evening but we either aren't interested in the same games or I'm too out of it that late at night to learn a new game. It also got kind of boring playing the same games over and over and only with each other.
The other problem we've had is that I know one of his needs is physical touch and I can't give it to him. I draw away from him at the slightest touch. he gets too close and I move away. I need to feel connected in other ways before I can open that part of myself up.

I would go read the article When to Call it Quits here and follow the plan suggested.

Additionally, I would write your husband a love letter telling him about your unhappiness and what it will take to make you happy. Ask him to do those things, especially spending 20+ hours of UA time per week on DATES. Post the letter here and we will give you feedback.

Sending the letter is much better than discussing it with him because there is no chance for a fight. In the meantime, i would prepare for a separation.

And I would strongly suggest you read the book Lovebusters. I think you will be surprise to see that many of your behaviors on that list.

I know exactly what he does on the PC. A few years ago we lived in a 2 bdrm apartment and the PC was in the living room. I pointed out that I thought this was an addiction and he laughed at me so I asked him to prove to me that it wasn't. I asked him to stop gaming for 1 month. If at the end of each week he was "jonesing" then he could take 2 hrs on Saturday if he had to. well, he took that 2 hrs every single week and tried to negotiate and manipulate his way into more time. So at the end of the month all he had done was prove to me that he actually was addicted. Trying to get help for that though is almost laughable. It's only now starting to be recognized as actual addiction that is tearing families apart.

I figure I can't control him but I can control the children and guide them through healthy gaming habits as they discover it. They are not allowed near the gaming systems in our house. We talked to his mom one night(having gone through 2 marriages that fell apart due to addiction) I thought she'd understand. we went to play card one night after dinner and she stopped and said oh I guess we better not do that, he has a gaming addiction. I replied that it was to online type games. she said "oh, so he can only play the games that you say he can play with!" I knew I would find no support there.

I talked to my aunt and uncle one night about it, I figured that if I was having a problem with something them it was my problem and I had to find a solution or figure out how to fix it. This one night I couldn't find a solution and I couldn't bring myself to go home. finally my aunt and uncle said they've seen this as a rising problem among my generation, and knew of 5 other couples on the verge of divorce because of it. they pointed out that this was not my problem to fix, it was his. I was not willing to let anything interfere with my marriage so I came home with an ultimatum... either he gets it under control or I would turn this house into a military home(like I grew up with) and every moment would become regimented, allotted, and accounted for.

things got better for a while but I feel like it's always one step forward and 2 steps back.

since he has his his own little cubby now though it's like he feels he can do whatever he wants to do and he's not in the way of anything I want to do in the house.

He takes one night every week to go out with his friends to go and game together but I can't take time for myself unless he gives it to me and never does. He says I can go and do whatever I want too(as long as he doesn't have to be responsible for the children). I can do whatever I want as long as it doesn't inconvenience him in any way.

The solution is to get rid of the computer. If there is no computer there, he can't feed his addiction. I would make that a condition in your letter that he NEVER be on the computer. As long as he is emotionally invested in computer games, he can't be invested in his marriage.


This is valuable time that is being wasted on activities that don't benefit your marriage. This is time that could be better spent with you.

I completely agree!

Definitely take back the cubby. He would not be able to retreat off away from the family if the computer was in the middle of the living room. I know a couple who are both big gamers. Their set-up is two computers facing each other on the same desk, in the middle of their living room. They play together.

Trying to shield the children from gaming by creating that separate space has aided in the removal of their father from the family.

So, rearrange the house.

I agree with Mel about just getting rid of the computer, though, too. You wouldn't stock the bar if your husband was an alcoholic and just say, uh-uh, you can't touch it!

His one night a week out needs to cease until you are getting 20 hours of UA time a week AND it gets your enthusiastic agreement to resume.

If he intends to stay married, you need to enforce this kind of stuff as explained in the Quits newsletter.

I read the article you suggested...
I will have to think about how to put a letter together.
I'm not sure though, if I am already involved in another relationship course should I finish that and let it fail before starting this? that would give a clear outline/timeline for what factors work and which ones don't.

I had thought I had given this MB a try and wasn't working so I was going to give this other course a try and it was the last straw for me. at the end of it if there wasn't any improvement or change then I was done, but this friend pointed me to this forum and said ppl here could guide me better than what he or what I had tried on my own. so I'm willing to do/try anything, I don't want to see it end I want to see it get better.

Why don't you try what is the most likely to achieve success and that is MB? Other marriage programs don't even "work" if used as instructed because they do nothing to restore the romantic love. If you waste your one shot on a program that doesn't work, then your H is much less likely to ever try again.

Perfect! .. its not going to be an overnight fix either, it will take a while. This is a marathon and not a sprint.

I suggest you do as the vets have suggested with the love letter and post it here before you give it to your hubby. They can help you arrange it so it wont get defensive and so its not got any disrespectful judgements.

Keep posting and keep asking questions. All the while keep reading and arming yourself with the info available here.

MNG

I have thought about throwing out the computer but then I worry about being controlling. I feel like he pushes me into the roll of being his mother but I don't think that's an appropriate way for a couple to treat each other and wont do anything but breed resentment.

as for the allotted time before I kick him out... that will change as new ideas/solutions are tested or tried. this other course ends the end of Feb. so far it has focused on what each other brings to the relationship and how children behave when they see parents show affection for each other.

it might take me a few days to come up with a letter, I don't have a lot of time to read. even the time I have spent this morning on this forum is more than I'm comfortable with but I will try.

\
Unless it focuses on changing the destructive behaviors in your marriage and restoring the romantic love, you will be spinning wheels. Your basic problem is that your H is addicted to the computer and as such, your marriage has been neglected.

There is a very straight line to full recovery: eliminate the computer addiction, eliminate lovebusters and restore romantic love by spending 20+ hours of undivided attention meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment.

Anything other than that is a distraction from the solution.

Q, you need to speak up and tell him what a problem this computer is. Tell him you are not okay with the amount of time he is spending on the computer and the circumstances under which he does it. And then stick to that, every day: keep this problem on the front burner until it is solved.

Quoted for truth!

But I must mention also that for a while when the computer is removed there will be a time period of withdrawl from the PC. Just like any addiction, its not an overnight fix.

MNG

"So far it has focused on what each other brings to the relationship"

...is psych-speak for blowing smoke up your butt and putting on rose-colored glasses. Lipstick on pigs, so to speak.

MB is a behavioral program, and if people follow the guidelines for behavior (which is all they can control, btw), then feelings of being in a romantic relationship follow, just like they do in action-oriented courting situations. Did you fall in love with and marry your husband while he ignored you?

Just wanted to add that it must be said in a way that doesnt make him feel defensive. No disrespectful judgments, or angry outbursts or demands. State it as pleasantly as possible. But state it often.

I am new to MB, but not new to gaming addiction. My H is addicted to gaming. He started playing in 1998. We have had several big blow ups. He would stop for awhile, then find some excuse to go back. One thing he must do is admit it is an addiction. Just like any other. I found websites listing symptoms of gaming addiction and emailed them to him. Finally, he admitted that it was an addiction. But, he didn't stop immediately. But, it changed how we talked about it. "Gaming"
sounds fun, "Addiction" not so much fun. I was honest with him about how much I hated his addiction, hated seeing the back of his head, him ignoring all of us. Tell him how you feel about the addiction. I had many people tell me, "What's the big deal? He's not cheating on you, he's not at a bar somewhere." Really? Neglect, is neglect. I told him, I felt like he substituted me for an appliance. It got his attention when I told him I was going to substitute him for an appliance (if you get my drift).

My point in telling you this is....he must realize himself that he is an addict. He needs to know exactly how you feel about his addiction. If he still thinks it's "just like watching TV or reading" he is wrong. You must get radically honest about it.

Now for some hope. My H stopped gaming. He also told our children that they cannot game. Only educational ones are allowed. He apologized to me and the kids for years of neglect. We found MB, eliminated LB's and are spending close to 20 hours together. Don't give up!!!

I would very pleasantly pick up the computer and drop it out of the upstairs window. His computer is about like an alcoholic keeping booze in the house. his computer is destructive to your marriage and I would get rid of it. That crosses a boundary of YOURS, TheQ, that should not be crossed.

Isn't the Q from star trek? No one messed with the Q. :P

Edit to add: sorry had to lighten things up a bit :P

I wanted to do that. Take a baseball bat to it actually. And I told him, that if he didn't stop that would be the consequence. I was afraid of his reaction (violence, separation) if he came home and the computer was gone. I couldn't risk my kids seeing that. I chose a different route. Flat out...I was afraid.

I would add that he does not have to admit it is an addiction in order for her to enforce her boundaries. And having the computer in her home should be a boundary that should not be crossed.

Most addicts do not sober up until they are separated from their addiction FIRST and they do not admit their addiction until they are sober. For example, most alcoholics don't show up at AA because they magically realized the error of their ways and skipped to my lou to an AA meeting! Oh no!! They are FORCED there by the courts, police, employers and spouses. Many will go to JAIL if they don't stop their addiction and have to submit to drug testing.

In other words, most addicts don't wake up and magically realize the error of their ways. It takes a caring person hold a gun to their head and put a stop to it. In the case of an alcoholic or a computer junkie, I would not allow either of those substances to destroy my home life and would remove them.

Keep in mind that Dr Harley states that in the case of an affair addiction that polite requests do not work. It is because the addiction has the person fogged out, which is the condition that applies to gaming addictions:

From the new book by Dr. Harley Effective Marriage Counseling pg 94:


In this case we could reasonably say "While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate him from his computer addiction."

I have been sober for 27 years this April and I did not admit I was an alcoholic until I had been sober for about 3-4 months. Why was I sober? My H told me to stop drinking or get out THAT DAY.

I will be forever grateful for that motivator because it changed my life.

I've thrown phones in the toilet. I threatened another woman's husband with throwing his phone off the pier if it rang again while he was a guest at our table. Shut it off or pay and go away.

Boundaries are a good thing. Throwing out things instead of people are, imho, good boundary markers.

I started off with polite requests. Was ignored. Started making demands five years ago. Was ignored.

The thing about gaming addiction though, there's really only one person that can hold them accountable, the spouse. It's not illegal, it usually doesn't effect their job. Most people don't see it as morally wrong. It takes some convincing.

Of course, it violated my boundaries. But they can justify having a computer. "I'm a grown man, this is my house too, it's not illegal, it's not immoral. What's the problem?" I had to convince him, that it was immoral (gluttonous) and it felt like he had an "affair" (adultery).

I'm not saying that she shouldn't take the direct approach ie throw out the computer. I'm just saying be prepared with your arguments, and be prepared for his reaction.

I think this is where spouses of addicts get mired down and miss the boat. They try to negotiate with the addict. That is like debating with a falling down drunk. The bottom line is that boundaries are not negotiable; not up for debate. They just ARE. And the spouse either respects them or they don't. If they don't the offended spouse needs to be prepared to defend those boundaries. Or she can't call them boundaries. An undefended boundary is not a boundary, it is just hot air.

A demand cannot be ignored if followed by swift and immediate consequences. Like Harley states, polite requests are not likely to work.

I started off with, "I don't want you to have a cell phone because it provides secrecy."

I progressed to "I don't want you to give out your number because it gives your customers access to our time."

I ended with "If you answer that phone I will smash your face in with this soup tureen."

(dramatized. I actually put it in the toilet while ringing.)

"I will not compete with a machine for your attention" is enough of an argument for a rational human being. Then smash or splash, it is gone.

Wow, I wish I had this support years ago. I was a pushover for too long. If I had told anyone that I was leaving H over his gaming addiction, they would have laughed in my face. Seriously. I was too nice about it, uh? Had I taken the direct approach, yes, he might have left me for a computer game (pathetic), but he might have stopped much sooner. Again, it would've been great to have been validated by you guys back then!

I apologize, didn't mean to hijack. Maybe Q will get something out of this exchange. Hang in there Q!

I wouldn't suggest the route that got me off the computer... but I will suggest the route that keeps me off; eliminate Love Busters, and meet emotional needs.

I would much rather spend time with my wife, especially since she has eliminated her AO/DJ/AH/IB behaviors, and is a pleasant companion.

T/J I'd ask if you were kidding, but I have a feeling you're not. Sheesh.

Now off T/J. I'm with the write a love letter and let him know exactly how you feel. If he truly has an addiction then the computer needs to get out of the house. Every time he sees it, it will trigger him. I don't think you have to smash it with a baseball bat. Destroying property is really a waste of money...specially with stuff like phones or computers that can be sold and bring in some cash. Or pack it up and donate it to someone that can use it that can't afford one.

Here's another question...

We use the computer for more than just games. it is our contact with the outside world and entertainment. If we want to watch a show or a movie we go to the computer. If we want to know what's going on in the world or the weather(which he needs to know for work) we go to the internet. we don't have cable or cell phones to access these things by.
If I cut him off from the computer then it also cuts him off from his other sources of information as well.

when we first moved into our place here 1 1/2yrs ago we didn't have a working computer so a friend of his lent us a lap top to borrow. he didn't play any of his typical games but he did find all these little useless time consuming games like shoot the bunny out of a cannon - one simple action repeated, no strategy involved. and he would say that it's not gaming so I shouldn't have a problem with it.

and is it fair to cut him off when I still use mine.... I mean without it I wouldn't be able to access help like this.

The other problem gaming presents for him is that it interferes with his control over his insomnia. which on occasion inhibits his ability to go to work.

What is more important? Information? Or your marriage?

I would make one PC available in a public place in your home. Like the living room or dinning room and use it ONLY for information and entertainment when you are BOTH in an enthusiastic agreement to use it. Anything other than an enthusiastic agreement regarding its use means it stays off. No more private time for him on the PC or PC useage without your consent. POJA would say that unless you can come to an enthusiastic agreement about a particular issue, the default is do nothing until you are BOTH enthusiastic. THis does not include "if you let me do this, i will let you do that later!" That would be sacrificing. Something that should not happen.

MNG

doesn't information prevent the stagnancy of marriage? when all has been said what do you have left to talk about? if there is nothing new to talk about all that seems to remain is awkward silence, and redundant stories that have been heard many time over. you can't share insights/opinions if there's nothing to share insights about. Isn't a part of marriage about being able to share information and ideas?

we had a good discussion last night about a book he read that led to some interesting things we had never talked about before and he was surprised to see that I actually can understand some of the physics/scientific concepts that are hard for some people to even conceive.

My only other thought would be to bring in the newspaper?

I don't know about that, MNG, as the addict is an insomniac who will likely still stay up and use that computer, alone, at night.

I'd like to hear more from those who know more about addiction...

This is a disrespectful judgement on his behalf. No one should tell you how you SHOULD feel about something. If it bothers you, it bothers you and that withdraws love from your love bank for him.

Does he want to remain married to you? If so, he will need to find ways to resolve things that revolve around enthusiasm between the two of you or you will continue down this negative path until you eventually divorce.

MNG

Not if she just went ahead and put a password on his PC on him so he cant use it without asking her to unlock it! ?

The_Q, there is a recreational enjoyment questionaire in the questionaires section. Have you seen it? Have you read the article on friends and enemies of good conversation? There is plenty here you can use to drum up conversation between the two of you.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4500_resource.html

edit to add link to the questionaires.

Oh and here is the article on "when conversation becomes boring" from the "how to meet emotional needs" section of the Q&A area.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5056_qa.html

I agree that your husband has to stop the PC addiction.
But also think about what he gets from the PC games and figure out how you can meet those needs.
He may feel part of a team. He may feel admired. He may feel like he is acheiving goals. What things can you do together that make him feel that way as well?

MNG - I will look a those articles, It's been a while since I read through a lot of these.

wannabophim - that's a good point, I will have to think about how to address those, maybe the articles MNG suggested will help with that.

thanks everyone, I can't tell you how much I appreciate these insights and suggestions.

Thats all information he can get from many other places, such as radio, books, newspapers, TV. Since he has an addiction problem with the computer, I would get him off it completely. OR another thing you could do is just have one family computer that is set up [only you have the password] so you can only go on TOGETHER. Arrange it so you are right there watching movies or reading news together.

Movies? From where? Netflix? Hulu? (Pirated?)

For the streaming services you could look into a Roku box. The Xbox also does a lot of these services, and the Kinect... There are some fun RC opportunities with that (2 player fruit ninja is a blast!).

In writing this letter to him, what all should I be including? should I include ideas of how he could be making love bank deposits?

should I point out how our home or family is affected?

since gaming is the problem how far do I take it? when he hooks up with his friends they play D & D and magic which are physical games but the ones on the PC mean that he doesn't have to put in the same time commitment. I don't know this suddenly feel like a very complicated thing to address let alone resolve. maybe I need to sleep on this to get my thoughts straightened out...

Do I make it a stipulation of our relationship that he meets the 20hrs/week of UA first and only then he can play with his friends?

currently they meet every friday night for approx 4-6hrs, usually it ends up being magic or board games. however they just started playing D & D again(huge time commitments there) but they are talking about only playing it once or twice a month on a saturday (our only real family day) for approx 10-12hrs. so he is essentially gone for that day. He does understand that going out on friday night and then again on saturday is too much so they make it a trade off. he stays home on that friday and goes out on saturday instead.
very few of his other friends are even in relationships, only 2 of them are married(to each other), and none of them have kids. So none of them are in even a similar situation to understand that it's not acceptable to behave the same way you do as a bachelor as you do when you have a family... and this is where he finds his support for his habits as well. *pulls hair out*

If I'm going to address his gaming addiction I have to address it in it's entirety and have a solution for how to deal/handle the whole thing or there is no point addressing it at all.

I would say that any game your not included in ... doesnt happen. Period. Hence the policy of JOINT AGREEMENT (NEVER DO ANYHTING WITHOUT AN ENTHUSIASTIC AGREEMENT BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR SPOUSE) Until you guys are both in love again.

If his friends are encouraging him to not be at home? this is TOXIC to your marriage. Possibly time to get some new friends who share the same values as you do or ask them to all come over and play at YOUR place after his responsibilities are taken care of that way you can play too (provided your ENTHUSIASTIC) Dont forget though that the POJA is DOUBLE SIDED... his opinion counts too but the default is DO NOTHING until you can both be happy about whatever it is that your negotiating.

here is some more articles that may help you.
independant behaviour - http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5053b_qa.html

Plan A and Plan B - http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

When to call it quits - http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_quit.html

3 States of mind in marriage - http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3600_state.html

Policy of Joint agreement - http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html

Policy of undivided attention - http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_attn.html

Read through my thread Q ... make your hubby a letter that explains your feelings and how you are falling out of love and want to have a loving and FULFILLING marriage with your husband. Tell him that if the way things are continue that you WILL seperate from him because his independant behaviour is very inconsiderate to how you feel and how the kids feel. Tell him you know of a plan so that you BOTH can get what you BOTH want. SHow him the policiy of joint agreement (print it out) and tell him you want to live by it and that his excessive gaming is no longer acceptable and that it never has been and now your to the point that it is making you want to leave him. Tell him he has to make a PERMANENT change in regards to his gaming and his time spent with you otherwise your love for him will just fade away and who wnats to be in an unhappy marriage? Post your letter here before you give it to him so the vets can make sure it gets the point across respectfully. They will help you (as they already asked you to do)

There should be NO MORE SACRIFICING. No more If you let me do this I will let you do that ideology. That builds and creates resentment. neither one of you should gain at the others expense EVER. Do a stellar PLAN A but prepare for a PLAN B. Your mariage is the most important thing in the world! Even more important than your kids needs being met! Without happy parents the home is in a state of stress and the kids know it! If your hubby cant put on his big boy undies and grow up and be a father and a husband then he needs to go. Its very unfair to YOU and your KIDS that you guys are neglected because he wants to act single ... but have the benefits of marriage that only make HIM feel good. ITs TIME to stand your ground (respectfully no arguing) and if he doenst like it ... thats too bad then obviously he doesnt want to be married to you.

(vets if i am off on this .. plz correct me)

MNG


edit for minor details

I just wanted to note that I am the friend that sent The_Q here (she didnt know MNG was me until today). My wife and I know The_Q from high school and we want her to have a thriving marriage. One that she can be proud of.

MNG

I don't know that I would say that they are encouraging him to not be at home... they just want him to hang out with them. now if that means the same thing then yes. I used to go with him but once we had kids these other environments and situations weren't adequate to accommodate the presence of children. It was more stressful than anything to take them with us and having a babysitter wasn't very feasible.
I used to think if we just moved away then he would have no choice but to make new friends. apparently 40min away isn't far enough to deter him from going to see them. He is extremely slow to make new friends. we've been here 4 years now and he's only starting to feel somewhat relaxed here. We have invited them over but most of them don't drive. the one couple now lives only 20 min away and once or twice a year they will come over to our place, but more often than not he goes out there.
So I stayed home with the kids instead to make sure their needs were being met. Currently we can do a babysitter but only if we absolutely have to. grandparents are allowed to have the children over night once a month. H tends to go out on those nights regardless and says I thought this would give you some good alone time, so you can do whatever you want. or we're just going to be playing magic and I know you don't really enjoy that so just enjoy your time to yourself with no kids. I'm not sure how that makes any sense... if I spend every waking moment with the kids and seldom with my H, then doesn't it stand to reason that when the kids are gone I would rather catch up on time missed with H then spend it alone?

now I haven't finished reading through everything but...
are you saying that I should treat his addiction like a lover?

Then, sir, I suggest you do your best to be a friend to the marriage, and not the friend to a friend.

Q - what kinds of things did you two BOTH enjoy doing together BEFORE you had children?

HHH thanks! .. I agree .. i told her on FB that she needed to talk here .. Hence why i sent her here. I cant be the one to totally guide her due to creating a contrast effect. my wife is aware I talked to her and I showed her all our messages .. but yes I know .. i just wanted to get her off on the right foot and get you guys to guide her. She needs all the help she can get. I would like to see her marriage thrive!

HHH think I should stay off the thread? Is it contrasting to be involved here? Sorry .. i just want to see her helped.

TheQ, how is the letter coming along? Another big problem I see is the time he spends away from you playing D&D with his friends. That cannot possibly be good for your marriage and I would ask him to give that up. It might not be so bad if you were getting 20 hours of UA time a week, but you are not.

In the letter I would ask him to commit to 20 hours of UA time per week, since this program won't work without that step.

You've done well so far in sticking to strict MB articles.

alright, I have pieced together a letter....


Dear bear,

I feel like our relationship has crumbled and fallen apart. The love that brought us together has all but gone. We have reached a point where we are not emotionally connected but rather 2 entities existing in the same place. The children feel/see this too. I see it in the confusion on their faces when we are together; they crave your attention so much that when you are at tentative to them it�s always a big deal. Or when we have company over and you come down they are all over you, not me, they see me all the time and they get all the undivided attention they need from me. For me however it has had the opposite affect over the years. When I see you I don�t want your affection, when you come close I back away, you no longer have a place in my personal space. I mourn the loss of our relationship on a regular basis. That is not to say that it is gone for good or that it cannot be recovered. Where you spend your time is also where your relationship lays. At the moment your time is with your computer and gaming. Until that changes then there can be no relationship with me. My love bank is below empty and I have nothing left to give. I have no feelings of love for you, or patience. My love bank is in the red and has been for quite some time, this has manifest it self by the couple of times I have come to the brink of ending our relationship by kicking you out or not being able to find the strength or will to come home.

I remember a year after we had started dating, riding my bike home from work and still getting those butterflies and feelings of excitement when I saw your car parked outside my house. Most people get those feeling for the first 3-6 months, and that had held true in any relationship I had ever been in before, but not with you. I knew I wanted to be with you because those feeling had been there longer than ever before. Every time we were together your attention was on me and you filled my love bank, and I wanted to do things for you, to express those feelings I had for you. I wish I had known then what I know now� As gaming became part of our relationship it slowly replaced me. I still tried to give all I had before but I felt there was no return on my deposits. Eventually I stopped making deposits too. My love bank went dry and my attachment to you was replaced by anger and resentment. You made your deposits with your games and friends. You always say that men go into a relationship not wanting anything to change, and women go into a relationship thinking how they can change him. To that statement I have always said that it doesn�t make any sense because life changes and you need to change with the circumstances or get left behind. I would say that I was happy with the way things were until you changed them. It didn�t bother me so much when it was just the 2 of us and we could spend our time together whenever we wanted and however we wanted. However with the arrival of children in our home you cannot expect things to stay the same. You have to change to accommodate the needs of the children, and suddenly our time together now has limits and dimensions it never had before. The trick is figuring out to make things work within those new parameters.

Where did things go wrong? How do we get it back? Do you want it back? I know I want it back very badly, but you cannot jump right into intimacy and expect it to fix everything. I don�t even want you to touch me right now, in any way.

This last week has been nice in places. When you finished reading your book and we were able to discuss it together, even though I hadn�t read the book myself we were still able to share ideas on talk about the concepts presented, which led to other discussions we haven�t had in a very long time. Over time it feels kind of like we have nothing left to talk about but isn�t that one of the thing you liked most about me�that I was interesting? I know that I can�t keep up to your understanding of science and physics but that doesn�t mean that I don�t enjoy talking about it or learning about it through you in small doses, or sharing how I have developed an understanding of some of these concepts naturally.
I enjoy our time together that we spend watching shows at night, that in itself gives us something else to talk/laugh about, but it seems like the time you want to spend with me doing that has become a case of what is the shortest show possible so you can get back to what you were doing before.
Friday night was the first time in a very long time that you have even considered that I might want to come with you or join you in your activities with your friends, even if it was a game night. I had fun playing a board game with you and the others. It fell apart for me though when you decided to play magic and I have no interest in that game so I sat there knitting and watching your brother play video games basically waiting for you to finish so that we could be us again.
That time last year that we went for the weekend to the springs was wonderful, but it wasn�t enough. It was enough for that week, but if the time we spend together is not maintained them the feeling quickly diminishes, as it did.
Recently you have spent a little more time with the kids wrestling and horsing around and that is good to see, they need you just as much as I need you.

Our relationship is not going to make it if something doesn�t change. You have always said that you are not worried about us and that we will be together forever. When I am at the brink of despair over our relationship I don�t know how you can think that, I have never been certain of that but when we were married I had hope that it could be. That�s not good enough, I want it to be a thriving relationship that sets the precedent for the children of how a marriage/home is supposed to be, and to be able to emulate good, strong, and healthy habits in their own relationships as they get older. That can only happen if we show them how. I think we have always set a good example of dealing with conflict in that we have always been able to talk calmly about things when they come up. However, there needs to be more� much more.
I have been trying to figure out for years how to save our marriage, I don�t want to see the kids suffer through a split family situation, but I don�t want them growing up an abusive home either, that is really only abusive because of neglect. I have mentioned marriage builders to you before and tried to get you to look at it but you weren�t very interested. I propose giving it another chance and to fully immerse ourselves in the structure they have set out. It�s all based on mutual respect, and I believe it will work.

The 2 most important things that I can see that we need to make our relationship thrive is time and agreement. By these I mean that the children need 20hrs/wk with you, 20hrs/wk with me, and you and I need 20hrs/wk to spend with each other outside of the kids. We can�t make love bank deposits if we aren�t in each other�s company. The other one is for both of us to stop doing anything that does not have the enthusiastic agreement of the other. To follow the Policy of Joint Agreement (Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse) as presented by the Marriage builders program. They have lots of other things that affect a thriving relationship but I think these are the 2 most important ones that need immediate attention.

I know that this will be difficult for you as this is not what you are in the habit of doing, but I am here and I want to help you through this and make permanent positive changes in our home for everyone. I know your thinking �great this means I have to give up gaming� and your right. It is an addiction that has plagued our home for far too long. I know you don�t see it that way but you have proven to me time and time again that it is. Your other though must be how this is going to affect your time out with your friends, and yes that will be affected too. The thing that you should be thinking is what is more important? Your marriage or your gaming/friends? This doesn�t mean that you will never see them again but it does mean that the parameters of the time you spend with them will. when you do it will only be once the 20hrs/wk with each other has been met and it will not be to feed your addiction. If this means that they need to come to our home to participate in a game night then so be it. Your friends don�t need your deposits, I do, and we are more important that your friends or the computer. If I need to I can put a lock on your computer so you aren�t tempted to use it. It is also interfering with your ability to control your insomnia, which then interferes with your ability to function for work or with the family.

I think if we work together we can find ways to meet any and all of our needs together.

Q, several posts have had a "flag" raised as I've read your thread.

The children seem to come up a lot, and you said that "babysitting is a problem."

Your M isn't going ANYWHERE until that changes.

Also, your children do not need 20 hours a week. The recommended time for FC (Family Commitment) is 15 hours per week. Your children are not trying to create romantic love with their father.

Has anyone yet linked the article "Caring for Children Means Caring for Each Other" for you?

I STRONGLY suggest that you read that article before you give your H this letter - which has a strong amount of focus on the children.

FC is an emotional need, and having that need met is important... however, it is going to be MORE IMPORTANT that YOU make the decision to prioritize your marriage OVER YOUR CHILDREN. That means if you don't get 15 hours of FC time in so that you can get in 20+ hours of UA time, then it is WHAT HAS TO BE DONE.

Poking and prodding your husband off of the computer is not going to work IF YOU DO NOT MAKE YOUR MARRIAGE YOUR TOP PRIORITY AS WELL!

I'll bet dollars to dimes this is why your prior attempt to get him to stop failed - because he got off the computer to still come behind domestic responsibility and the children... he was "jonesing" because the alternative wasn't nearly as pleasant.

Are YOU ready to make your marriage YOUR number 1 priority as you request your husband does?

This means solving the babysitting issue. Your 20+ hours of UA are best spent outside of the home WITHOUT your children.


Caring for Children Means Caring for Each Other;

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_care.html

Agree with HHH. I would write the letter and eliminate all the disrespectful judgements. Simplify it to something like this:

Dear Bob, I love with you all my heart and want so much for us to have a happy marriage. I am desperately unhappy and consider the future of our marriage unhopeful at this point. I have to be honest and tell you I don't know how much longer I will remain in this marriage unless something changes.

I know I have made mistakes in the past and failed to make you happy in some respects. [give some examples]

I so want us to have a happy, romantic, loving marriage where we are both satisfied and in love. I do want to make you happy and am willing to do what it takes to achieve this. I know how we can get that again, if we can both make appropriate changes.

I am willing to make these changes to make you happy and am asking that you make changes too.

I am asking that you make the following changes:

1. stop playing games on the computer and get rid of your computer. Commit to never going on the computer unless it is you and me together reading news, emails or watching movies

As it is now, I feel that I come second place to your computer and this hurts me terribly.

2. commit to spending 20 hours per week with me ALONE focusing on conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment.

This step is essential to the rebuilding the romantic love in our marriage.

3. commit to going through the Marriage Builders program with me.

Please think about what I have said and lets go out to dinner and discuss it. I love with all my heart.

TheQ

Q, this is critical to understand. If he gets off the computer he will have a big vacuum in his life. It HAS to be filled with something he loves and enjoys. THAT NEEDS TO BE YOU!!! It needs to be you and your undivided attention - with no children around.

I GET that you want him to be a part of the children's lives, but FIRST fix your marriage and learn to use the POJA and the DS need can be addressed then.

Q, this is what I failed to do for years. He would quit for a while, then go back. He was bored. I had to become his entertainment. And honestly, the kids haven't suffered. They are just fine without me hovering, directing their every move. Anticipating their needs. Seriously, it's ok!

no I hadn't seen this one yet, thank you

I'm having a bit of ahrd time I think understanding what disrepectful judgements are because I wasn't aware there were any in that letter. is it simply the difference between using "I statements" vs. "You statements"?


That feels like a lot of love statements... should I lie about my feelings for him? I don't feel like I love him anymore. I want to get it back but I feel awkward about saying it if it's not real. I do things with love like I write this letter with much love and concern but that's not the same thing as saying I love you...

pre-marriage/dating? during marriage? I don't know if I can come up with anything here. I don't do anything without first taking him into consideration...




I feel like this is so hard to do right now. I'm pregnant and on bed rest, there is very little I am actually capable of physically doing until the baby comes, that's still 3 months away. and the few things that I am capable of doing he gets bored of fairly quickly. when I'm not pregnant there are lots of things that we can do together to build the love between us I just don't see how I can replace/fill that void right now. I can sit at the table and play a game with him, and I can sit and watch a show with him, but anything that requires any kind of physical anything is pretty much out of the picture. Even simple tasks like going up or down the stairs is very difficult and painful.

side note from another post - I understand POJA but what is DS? I thought it was darling son but that doesn't make much sense
"fix your marriage and learn to use the POJA and the DS need can be addressed then."

shouldn't I address his gaming time with his friends here as well or is that part of the discussion we would have over dinner?

is this so that he discover the program and read through it without being presented with my bias first on how to go about fixing things?


...I'm still reading the articles and threads and trying to make sense of it all and how it all fits together.

I have no problem with focusing on fixing my marriage first and then focusing on the children and FC. does FC tend to just resolve itself once the marriage restoration is underway?

gosh this feels like a lot sorry if my thoughts are scattered I'm trying to get them all organized, lol

Domestic Support - IOW household chores etc.

I can give you a rough guess as to something "wrong" you have done in the marriage; you prioritized your marriage below everything else - the house, the children... All of that.

You aren't alone in that. Many women have done that. My wife did. I reacted as your husband did; I retreated into games and friends because I was not in love, because my needs weren't being met. And when I withdrew, I stopped meeting her needs.

Its all a familiar script, Q.

You HAVE to PRIORITIZE your marriage above everything else, or you are going to continue the cycle, or worse.

There are so many I don't know where to start. Here is one of many: "You always say that men go into a relationship not wanting anything to change, and women go into a relationship thinking how they can change him. To that statement I have always said that it doesn�t make any sense because life changes and you need to change with the circumstances or get left behind."


What needs to be said is that you love him in a caring way but are not in love with him.


I am sure you are kidding here and just haven't thought it through. What does he want you to change in the marriage? Have you read the book Lovebusters? I think you probably do engage in lovebusters but are just not aware of it. I can tell this by reading your letter.




I feel like this is so hard to do right now. I'm pregnant and on bed rest, there is very little I am actually capable of physically doing until the baby comes, that's still 3 months away. and the few things that I am capable of doing he gets bored of fairly quickly. when I'm not pregnant there are lots of things that we can do together to build the love between us I just don't see how I can replace/fill that void right now. I can sit at the table and play a game with him, and I can sit and watch a show with him, but anything that requires any kind of physical anything is pretty much out of the picture. Even simple tasks like going up or down the stairs is very difficult and painful.[/quote]

So you think that even if you give him the letter now that he will agree to do all this? If he does, then you will have to work around this. What about going out for dinner? A drive?

[quote
shouldn't I address his gaming time with his friends here as well or is that part of the discussion we would have over dinner?[/quote]

Yes, add that too.


No. I don't expect him to do that.

Which MB books do you have, TheQ?

Oh, I'd also guess that you have engaged in Angry Outbursts, Disrespectful Judgments, and Selfish Demands as self-defeating tactics to get him off the computer.

Again, not alone in that.

If you click on the Articles box up top, there is one called "Why do Women Leave Men?" The answer is neglect.

Honestly after my time here, I believe neglect could be the answer to "Why do Men Play Golf/Video Games."

I have more... But phone posting sucks...

You're right I haven't thought it through, given time I'm sure I can find something, I just have a lot on my brain right now. I can think of a few things that have happened over the years like he hates it when I cut my hair off but I only do it right after the baby comes and starts puking in and grabbing my hair. I'm willing to bet that I do engage love busters but I have no idea what they are, I figured that would become clearer after I gave him the letter and we sat down to do the questionnaires together.

I have no idea if he will agree to it. All my hope for our relationship is riding on him putting us first above the games. I don't think I've ever come right out and asked him to quit completely, I have asked him to be more considerate of who is in his presence when he does it and I've asked him to scale it back from being out with his friends on all of our family time. I don't remember specifically but I must've asked him to scale it back to once a week. he did quit world of war craft shortly after I asked him to give me a month and prove he wasn't addicted. but it was quickly replaced with some other game but at least it was something he could put down when I asked him for help rather than "I can't, I'm in the middle of a real time quest with other people waiting and counting on me". I pretty much take the pluses where I can and as small as it may seem it did make a difference. At least I'm just competing with a computer and not other people.
- dinner and drives sound nice, he's in lock down mode right now about money though, because he just missed a week of work due to weather.

we don't have any of them, finances being what they are, I'm pretty limited to what I can find on the site. I thought before I approach him again about MB I would get together all the information that I can or thought we would need. I have already printed off the questionnaires but thought maybe I should do this letter thing first. then if he was willing to pursue it with me then I would show him the articles and sit down with him to do the questionnaires.

I would not depend on the articles and questionaires to understand this program because you won't get it. This program is completely different from others so you really need to get the books. Can you get some used books from Amazon?

I think it would help tremendously if you read it so that you understand it enough to be able to explain to your husband.

Here are some used books from Amazon:

His Needs, Her Needs for Parents here

Lovebusters: here

This is the workbook that goes with them: Five Steps to Romantic Love: A Workbook for Readers of Love Busters and His Needs, Her Needs

Another way you can get books FREE is to email Dr Harley on his radio show and ask his opinion. [it is all free] He will send you a free book just for emailing him a question.

If all that fails, email me at ohmelodylane@aol.com and I will send you some books. I buy them 2-3 at a time and give them away to my friends.

I found and read Domestic support but was not able to find the other one
You are right, I think I probably took it for granted that it was "under control" it always seemed like by the time everything else was done and he came home from work, all he wanted to do was game to unwind from his day, and have me cater to his every whim. I believe gaming has been his only coping mechanism since he was about 12yrs old. he's never had to be responsible for anything and life has sort of been handed to him on a silver platter.

Angry outbursts have never been a problem for us. I will walk away from a situation before it gets to that, and he was cautioned years ago before we ever got married to watch and guard the things that come out of his mouth because of the way he thinks he had the potential to hurt people very badly with out much effort. he has always tried to head that council ever since. when ever we have a problem we always discuss it very calmly and rationally. Even after re-reading the article about it I would still disagree that it's a problem for either of us.

Selfish demands - probably a little but not so much. I can think of an instance or 2 when I did but it was always for the betterment of our home or protection. before we had kids was the first time I remember ever doing anything like and it doesn't come up often. he wanted to bring a video game into the house and I had already seen it and decided it was not something I wanted in our home and I would be very embarrassed if someone else came into our home and saw it. so I told it was not to come in, and if it did it would be gone. 2 weeks later it appeared in our home and I felt very betrayed and that was first time he ever hurt me so badly that I know I did shut down towards him so much that I couldn't stand to be in the same room as him or get dressed in front of him. I remember thinking it was so bizarre that I felt like I had been severely abused, I was ashamed to have anything to do with him.

Disrespectful Judgments - until yesterday I would've said that it may have been a mild thing at most but not really an issue. however after the comments that MelodyLane has made I'm starting to think I don't understand this concept very well... I know one of the things we have always enjoyed between us was the banter we could give each other, maybe some of that is coming out in the letter. I remember one day sitting in the kitchen at his moms house and we we're goofing around like we normally would and his sister jumped up and yelled at us to stop fighting. we looked at each other confused, we weren't fighting in the least but to her it sounded so. To us it was a game of wits, regardless we were aware it was affecting others so we stopped, for years. until last year he reminded me of how we used to do this and so we tried starting up again it was a little awkward and I don't think it really lasted long before we just forgot about it. maybe that banter turned into some form of disrespectful judgments? I'm not sure. the one statement she did point out I never would've thought to be one, so I will take time to try and process it and understand it better.

but to get him off the computer I don't want to be in a parenting role, I don't think that's respectful of each other, and I've always tried to keep myself away from that position. I try to let his decisions over his actions be his choice. if I have a need that requires his presence I make it known and leave it up to him to make his own choices. apparently he lacks the ability to make good choices, and I don't know what else to do, which is why I am here.

I'm sorry if it seems like I marched in here and took the wind out of your sails, Q.

The thing is, I can't say that I'm in total agreement about your H having a gaming addiction. In fact, I think you were a little more on point when you stated that it felt like an affair.

In my short time here, I have seen this story play out over and over again. I watched my brother go through it, with the worst possible outcome. I went through it, and while I lasted longer than he did - I ended up with the worst possible outcome.

It's a pretty simple script; man and woman get married. Man and woman have children. Woman makes the children and household be the center of her attention, man steps aside to allow this to happen (after all, it's for the children!). As the man's needs are met less and less, his Love Bank dwindles... he withdraws into something else... tries less and less to get his needs met (and when he does, it's usually through Love Busters). Man enters withdrawal, replaces wife with; games, sports, cars, etc. Wife is neglected. Wife's Love Bank balance dwindles... wife enters conflict or withdrawal. Wife wonders what the hell happened. Wife thinks Husband is a bum.

Your husband is less likely an addict, and more likely completely unhappy in his marriage, and would feel like a cad to complain when you are a "wonderful wife."

But, he probably is a cad. Place a keylogger on his computer. I'll bet he's not just gaming, he's probably watching porn, too. He's checked out, Q. He's given up on you meeting his needs, and at this time has zero interest in meeting yours.

His gaming is "OK" because he's; not having an affair, not out drinking, not out chasing women, at home most of the time.

But, he has given up on being happy in the marriage and is probably holding out hope that some day a lightening strike will return the woman he married, rather than this woman who treats him like an old sock with a paycheck.

Before you can get him to turn around, you are going to have to demonstrate that you are willing to meet his needs and not just demand that your needs be met.

Okay?

The_Q, you are getting some GREAT advice!

There is alot to chew on and old habits to break. We all go through it and once you do you will feel alot better for it.

Keep posting. Get a copy of his needs her needs for parents and love busters. They are SO helpful and have SO much insight.

Just remember, its a marathon and not a sprint and feelings follow actions.

MNG

HoldHerHand,
I wouldn't worry about deflating my sails, lol, you have brought some interesting points to my attention. I do feel the need to clarify though if I don't think me or the situation are being understood correctly.


there is no doubt in my mind that it is definitely an addiction. I believe he was addicted before we ever got together but I never acknowledged it as an addiction because when it was just the 2 of us I figured he was a grown man he can make his own choices and I figured when children came around he would re-prioritize the same way I would have to. The thing that solidified it for me was that he is completely unwilling to allow ANYTHING to interfere with it, and he will sabotage any time out together just so he can get back to it. he feels like an absolute jerk afterwards, but that doesn't prevent him from doing it in the first place.

I don't think so, possibly a little, but that was an issue at the beginning of our relationship and I don't think he really is, not intentionally seeking it out anyways. That is the one thing I have always made very clear to him is that if he has a need there then that's what I'm here for. he did do a bit of counselling for that too before we were married. the door to his room is always open so there is always the risk of someone walking in on him. I could ask him, I trust that he would be honest with me.

I don't know that I've ever treated him like a paycheck(it is possible), he treats himself like that, and I've asked him not to, I've told him that he's more important than just being a paycheck.

That's what I've been trying to do, I just don't know how, and I don't expect that I will until we sit down to do the questionnaires. I was going to do that after I gave him the letter. so maybe I should back to focusing on doing that?

I would definately follow Melody's advice and email Dr. Harley. You really need to get the book LoveBusters and you and he need to sit down and read it together. And shoot Melody an email and get another book. The thing is is we really don't really we engage in love busters. Your statement of him not having to take responsibility and having a silver spoon in his mouth is a disrespectful judgement. Every time we roll our eyes, give a small huff, etc. it's a love buster.

Here's the other thing, you speak negatively of your husband on here. That means you have negative thoughts of your husband. This negativity comes out in body language, mannerisms, tone of voice, etc whether you realize it or not. And he picks up on this. And so he feels disrespected and retreats to the games so he won't have to deal with the irritability and negativity.

We get so entrenched in our reactions and the way we respond that we don't even realize we're doing these things. And strangely enough, our spouse sometimes can't even realize what's happening...only that they're not comfortable with what you just said or how you said it. And we brush it off as "I was just kidding" or "You konw I didn't mean it that way."

The problem is we invalidate how our spouse feels and then it's basically no big deal if they feel disprespected. And, like I said, they might not even realize it first until they find themselves feeling angry and upset for seemingly no reason. In other words, they don't want to be around you.

Thank you kilted_thrower, I appreciate your comments and insights.

I don't have a problem doing any of this but how do i do this, what do I do first?
do I try to get the books?
write a letter to H?
or email Dr. harley?
at this point I'm thinking I should wait on the letter,
1. email dr. harley and wait for his response,
2. and then get the books,
3. then write letter to H.

what order do I do things in? or do I do everything all at once?

I'm assuming someone linked the "When to Call it Quits" article.

Hold off on the letter.

Educate yourself first. Write Dr. Harley, read the books, and then prepare a Plan A ----> Plan B scenario. Be prepared for plan B well before you begin your Plan A.

This letter you are so excited to deliver would be given AFTER a short Plan A, before you go into Plan B.

Dr. Harley may tell you different, though.

I'm not sure if someone linked it, MNG may have.. but I have seen it.

alright, so I will compose something for dr. harley first, and get the books together. I agree I like to be educated first before I jump into things...

HHH, the letter is sent FIRST and is the start of her Plan A. Harley has told other women on the radio show to do it this way. The way it works is she sends him a love letter telling him what she needs to make her happy. She is asking him to do certain things. In it she tells him what changes she is willing to make too in order to make him happy. She gives her vision of a happy marriage.

This way, he is clear as a bell about what she needs to be happy. Harley recommends a letter rather than in person because it removes the emotional aspect. There are no fights, no emotions and there it is in black and white.

She then does Plan A for several months in the hopes that he gets on board too. If he DOESN'T, then she separates from him with no forewarning. So in the time she is in Plan A, she is working out a plan for separation in case it comes to that.

If I have time I will look for some radio clips on this. I know he doesn't mention this Plan A letter in the article, but he does talk about it on the radio show and I think it is a good idea.

ML .. and the rest .. thanks for helping out The_Q and guiding her on her quest to restore love in her marriage. This online community is the best!

so MNG said I should bring this up on the board... I came home from church yesterday VERY angry! I think that was the first time I ever came home feeling worse after having been there.
We've been going to this marriage and family relations course, yesterday the topic was faith, prayer, forgiveness, repentance. There was a focus on how if you put God first then everything will just fall in line. if you pray together then your spouse will know how your feeling and will be able to make changes. There were comments about ignoring annoying habits so that they don't become an issue. they read a quote someone said about isn't it better to just ignore things you don't like, Isn't it better to say nothing �bury it?
I finally had enough and stood up and said NO! that's how you foster a relationship of neglect and abuse where nobody's needs get met, it's self serving and that does no one any good! it's those annoying habits that when not addressed destroy the marriage. if they are annoying at the beginning and not addresses then they become major irritants and deal breakers later and then it's too late because you're so entrenched in what you've been doing all along and it take tremendous effort to correct or it becomes the straw that tears it all apart. how are you supposed to teach your children how to properly resolve conflict if you never address things and just ignore everything... it just builds and builds until someone explodes, and who benefits then???
The next class they talked about resolutions. I hate resolutions and I hate talking about them. I figure if you want to make a change in your life then just do it, don't set yourself and follow the pattern of failure. once one person starts to talk about how they failed their resolution then it makes it easier and easier to just give up on your own. and half the time resolutions start out with good intentions but in the end become too lofty to achieve and you have no motivation to stick to it because everyone else around you has failed and can't support you to continue yours. make goals, start a journey to get where you want to be but be realistic about it and allow yourself to fall off the boat every now without beating yourself up too much and then have a plan or a way to get back on. I had enough, my blood sugar dropped and it gave me the excuse I needed to leave a few minutes early. I'm sure hormones played a significant part in that frustration because normally things don't bother me to that extent.

so that's my rant, I don't expect feedback about it. it just is what it is, lol

ML I look forward to hearing those radio clips.

is this where I would dr. harley?
Office@marriagebuilders.com

I just found this one...
mbradio@marriagebuilders.com.

Thanks for the update there!


Several months?

That is both hopeful and horrifying!


The "When To Call it Quits" states a month, though. Which seems more consistent with the "normal" time period recommended to women. I also remember either reading in one of those articles, or hearing on the radio, about a woman spending several months preparing for Plan B before she began her Plan A so that if the Plan A portion did not work, she was absolutely prepared to take the next step. I think that's fair advice from Dr. Harley - to make sure you can successfully Plan B before you begin expending energy on Plan A. It could be quite distressful to be "stuck" in an extended Plan A because you couldn't make Plan B "doable" inside the duration you predetermined, you know?

Q,

The MB radio one is the correct e-mail. Shoot one off, and you just might be the radio clip.

This is exactly what I was looking for when you first asked me to write the letter... with this understanding I can try a new letter. thank you

done.

Q ... you are on the ball girl! Keep up the great work! and GET those books I mentioned!

MNG

What a sure fire way to FALL OUT OF LOVE! That is like putting a dirty band-aid on a wound and expecting it to heal. It doesnt' work. And this is one of the biggest problems with church marriage programs, they teach "unconditional love" which is a NON-BIBLICAL practice that leads to neglect and abuse. Harley has written several articles on that on the newsletter forum.

In her case, she is going to need more time because she is pregnant. Fortunately, she is not in a terrible situation, such as adultery, etc. I am hoping that she can get him off the computer now, though.

Q .. now that you are on #3 for kids .. do you two plan on having any more? Has your hubby considered a V? I would highly reccomend it if you dont want more kids. My wife and I were done at 2 and then i got my V. For your hubbies piece of mind .. it was no worse getting done than getting a tooth filled at the dentist, infact it was probably a faster procedure then getting a tooth cavity filled.

MNG

Understandable - and the longer period will help her build a higher LB$ balance, which is what I see as "hopeful."

we are soooo done this is it we are not having any more! the difficulty that I go through during pregnancy is just too hard on everyone, and I am constantly fighting depression during it because of the complications. when this one is born I will be getting my tubes tied or cut & cauterized I don't know and I don't care. That is the one thing that both H and I have a very enthusiastic agreement about! lol

haha, it's funny because it's all alias's here I forget that I actually know you, lol

well now I'm torn... for christmas and now his BDay his brother has given him a couple of packs of warhammer figurines to put together and paint(they are essentially army guys). One of the things that we used to do when we were dating that we both enjoyed was painting pewter figs(fantasy/hero figs that would be used in a D& D game). warhammer is plastic and army guys, so it doesn't have quite the same appeal to me. he sat down at the table to paint them and so I sat with him and did a little touch up for him. I told him this was nice and that we should find more activities like this that we both enjoy and can do together. he said that yes we could do this together, we would have to invest in all the supplies again but it was do-able. since I don't play D & D and I haven't seen him use them in along time I asked him what the point of painting the pewter ones now? he said they could become just show case pieces that you never really use. ok I could get on board with that... however, my concern now is that his brother gave him this stuff with the intention that he's going to get into playing this game with him. I'm apprehensive about this because I fear that this is just the same crap in a different pile. I kind of like sitting and painting with him but for him it's a means to an end. he's doing this so that he can game with them. he'll get them all done up but then get really pissed if I turn around and say later that no I'm not ok with him going out to game...*sigh

thoughts?

Do you not like playing these games? I get that impression... because I would think if you enjoyed playing them and you weren't invited to join you'd probably be even more angry.

Honestly, the collectable/showcase reasoning is a lot better for the marriage. Why? Because it is something that you both enjoy doing together.

Have you tried doing the board/tabletop gaming with him, or do you have absolutely zero interest in it?

I tried playing them and sometimes it was ok, but I would get so frustrated with the time and money commitment required to play them. mostly the time thing. There was a point when every time we gamed together everyone came to our house and I would cook for everyone, which I didn't mind but when we tried to get others to contribute to the meal fund they longer wanted to come. I feel like I could like the game but there are just so many factors that have built up and contributed to my hate for it. I tried playing magic but everyone else became so cut throat it was no longer enjoyable. it kind of developed that way to prevent my H from winning all the time, everyone would gang up to beat him. many of the games become like that everyone else works together to defeat H. he would make a fantastic army strategist! lol!

When I realized it was an addiction for him I wanted nothing more to do with it. I have always had the belief that part of this life is learning to control your own self and if you can't then you become a slave to whatever controls you, and you lose your freedom to make your own choices/ good judgments. I refuse to have anything control me. If I can't control myself then then the controlling factor is removed. just like alcohol or any other addictive substance. when you can longer control the when and how much of something you indulge in then I have no use for it. and I have removed things from my own life when I feel being drawn into them or like it's taking too strong of hold on me.
I agree but I worry about where it will lead to. he wouldn't be painting just for the enjoyment of painting he's doing it so he can play this game. once the painting for the game is done he will have no reason to continue painting. whenever we've done it in the past it was always a means to an end, the means was fun and enjoyable, but there was always an end.

I have zero interest in warhammer, i have a hard time with games that require large time commitments because there are more important things that do require time commitments that aren't being met. I like board games though, we both enjoy chess but not with each other. his strategy thought process is a beyond me. I have fun with the board games but he gets bored of them unless we are playing with other people. I'm constantly trying to find something that we can both enjoy together, and we have lots he just doesn't want to do it with just me. we almost got involved in a game of crib the other night. that was a staple activity in one of my homes when I was a teenager, and I liked it. we came home from school and there was always a pot of coffee or tea on and a game of crib going. we would sit down and play crib and talk about our day. It was great! I would love to do that with my family(minus the coffee and tea) but my kids aren't old enough and my H isn't interested.

edited...

I think part of the problem in finding something we both enjoy together is that I come to him with some thing that I think would be neat to see or do or try but he always says not interested. but is he not interested because his game is more interesting? so it really would be interesting if there wasn't other competition, or is it really something that holds no appeal to him? I feel like I will never know the answer to this until the games are gone and I feel like as a family we are missing out on many opportunities because of his lack of interest.
for example there was a russian fair that came our way a few weeks ago. H was adopted by a russian father when he was 2 or 3yrs old. his father had issues with his family so H never spent much time with them, never developed a sense of family or love for his heritage. I thought this would great opportunity to learn about it. it was family friendly so we could take the kids and it could've been a great learning experience for all of us, maybe shed some light on things he didn't understand about his heritage/family. But I got the not interested response. so everyone missed out on this potentially great opportunity to have a family day, and a learning experience. If there is one thing that we have both always agreed on it was learning and education. So I couldn't understand this...

It sounds to me like your H most enjoys things he can win, and that he does not enjoy beating you, or you beating him. So it seems he would enjoy it very much if you two got involved in something where you are allies and can beat someone else.

Trivia team partners? I don't know about your area, but here there are lots of pubs that have trivia nights, and you'd sit at your own table, alone together, and work out answers to trivia questions together.

Chili cook-off champions? Dancing competitions (lol)?

When looking for new things to do, keep in mind that he likes to use strategy and he likes to be able to beat someone else (but not you). Look for things where most of the 'game' involves just the two of you. I'm trying to think of more ideas, but perhaps your best strategy is to consider the things you like to do and the things he likes to do and find the common ones that allow him competition and you togetherness.

that might be part of it, but for the most part he doesn't find things challenging enough. that might sound a little arrogant but he is a physicist and mathematician.
I would enjoy that but he doesn't like the ambience of pubs/clubs/bars we used to play a trivia game with his parents but it was a little weighted with all the information pre-1970's and out of date or incorrect. we've tried finding a newer one that everyone would enjoy but so far nothing.

I try to get him to pick the activities because under normal circumstances I find enjoyment in just about anything and everything.

Why don't you ask him to jot down 10 different things he'd find fun. Hopefully somewhere in those 10 things, you'll find a few you'd find fun or at least willing to try out.

Golf...

It's the perfect solution. You can never perfect it and it will drive the mathematician/physicist nuts. You can each play independently from each other OR compete among yourselves or against other couples. You don't have to be an athlete to play (sure it helps) but ANYONE can hack at it and, with practice and dedication...improve.


Just a suggestion. You can take lessons together and be together outside away from distractions (like the computer). Get some Vitamin D while you are at it.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - this one just occurred to me .... geocaching Wikipedia - Geocaching

Went back and read the first page and realized my suggestions are a little ludicrous for a pregnant woman nearly on bed rest....with two other children under age 5.

I don't know what I was thinking...had I just looked at your signature line. I'm losing it....sorry

Mr W

lol, but it's not a bad idea for later on down the road

how long does it normally take Dr. harley to respond to email?

If you don't hear anything back within a few days, email them again. They have an overactive spam filter, and many people find that their first email gets lost. Happened to Markos and me.

If you don't hear anything after the second email, click notify and ask the mods to help you get in contact.

thanks Prisca!

Hey Q >. while your waiting for a reply from Dr. Harley, you can always read other peoples threads .. sometimes you can pick up or gain perspective from doing that. You are getting some excellent help here. Keep it up!

Melodylane, I have re-written the letter for my H...


Dear Bear,

I write you this letter with love and want so much for us to have a happy marriage. I am desperately unhappy and consider the future of our marriage unhopeful at this point. I have to be honest and tell you I don't know how much longer I will remain in this marriage unless something changes.

I know I have made mistakes in the past and failed to make you happy especially when I have criticized you in front of others. I know that was wrong and I will work on trying not to do that again. As I become aware of the things I have done to hurt you and push you away I can resolve to change them so that we can have the best relationship we possibly can.

I want us to have a happy and loving marriage where we are both satisfied and in love. I do want to make you happy and am willing to do what it takes to achieve this. I know how we can get that again, if we can both make appropriate changes.

I am willing to make these changes to make you happy and am asking that you make changes too.

I am asking that you make the following changes:

1. Stop playing games on the computer and with friends. Commit to never going on the computer unless it is you and me together reading news, emails or watching movies

As it is now, I feel that I come second place to your gaming and this hurts me terribly.

2. Commit to spending 20 hours per week with me ALONE focusing on conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment.

This step is essential to the rebuilding the romantic love in our marriage.

3. Commit to going through the Marriage Builders program with me.

Please think about what I have said and let�s see if your mom will take the kids on Friday night so we can go out to dinner and discuss it. I want to love you with all my heart.

Bo

I would just like to say that this letter is MUCH better than the previous one. To the point ... and owning your own mistakes and offering a solution to make it all right.

So I just got a call from Joyce Harley, Thanks to mods for helping me get in touch with them! I will be on the show next tues feb 7th.

Just by note I have not given the letter to my H yet, I was waiting to see what happens here with Dr. Harley.

thanks to everyone who has helped me with this issue, we shall see what happens next!

Hey Q .. this is great! I am looking forward to hearing what Dr.Harley has to say to you!

haha! after re-listening to it, I can hear my 2yr old in the background, lol!

So .. how did it go Q? What did you take out of being on the show?

well... I'm going to ask him to listen to the show tonight...I'm concerned about how that will go I will see what he has to say about it, see if he wants to talk to them... and I will ask him to commit to reading the material with me. They said that they will send us love busters to read.
I'm not completely sure they understood this was a problem outside of the pregnancy, but I think the advice still stands.
They said that I should address the issue now because otherwise it create a resentment that will become hard to forgive and will surface again later on down the road when things aren't bad if it's not addressed now. So if we deal with it now it will be easier to provide the opportunity needed to forgive him.
They said we need to sit down and find things we can do together. they suggested the computer may need to go.

Q! ... I only caught the end of the show where the harleys read out that you told them how awesome my marriage is and how we refered you to the MB site, but will listen to it all later with my wife ... Thanks for that Q I appreciate that! My marriage is FAR from perfect but compared to what it was before MB .. its amazing and it continues to get better all the time!

Thats great that they are sending you Love Busters .. its a GREAT book! Keep up the great work Q.

I am looking forward to listening to your radio show later with my wife during some UA time.

MNG

Good job on the radio, Q! I hope Dr H can get through to your husband.

Q!
I haven't been following your thread, but I heard you on the show and then saw your name here and sure enough it was you. I have nothing to add but wanted to thank you for going on the show. I listened with my GF as we often do. I was saying that even though some situations don't apply to us directly (e.g. I'm too old for video games, lol), Dr. Harley almost always manages to say something useful for all circumstances. That's why I feel the concepts are solid -- they apply to life in general and to all relationships.

thanks again.
optimism

Thank you, I hope so too. He worked really late last night so I didn't get to sit down with him to listen together yet but I'm hoping to do so tonight.
I agree, I am constantly impressed with how much it makes sense! it's very logical.

So I talked to my H last night... it didn't come out the way I wanted it to. he got home while I was out with the kids and he got a phone call from his mom saying his brother heard me talking smack about him on the radio, and was very concerned and wanted to make sure he was ok. don't worry about the one who is actually being abused/neglected/in pain all the time... that's right worry about him! his mother is a big contributes to half of our issues but that's right worry about him! coddle him! yah ok I'm just a little bit bitter here. sorry for venting.
so he did listened to the show.. and he was not impressed. he said that sucks and is not fair that he should shoulder all the resentment (the resentment B that Dr. Harley talked about) while I'm still pregnant. (well how is it fair that I've had to deal with this for the last 6years! as far as I'm concerned he can suck it up for a bit and 2-3 months is nothing in comparison)he talked about how bored he's going to be without it and tried to rationalize his time that he spend on the computer and I just kept bringing it right back to the fact of where he is spending his time and what we could be doing together instead. I suggested reading reading through the marriage builders stuff together but he said he already did that. I know he read a couple of things but I said that there are lots of couples that read this stuff together and then they can talk about it together. I think he was just too grumpy last night to really talk about it, I think he needs some time to process it. I will approach him again tonight sorry for the vent, I'm just frustrated with the way things went...

how did DH respond to his mother's assessment? I wouldn't be bothered by her unless he was feeding into it. Dr. Harley's show talks a lot about couples who have to separate or distance themselves from inlaws if they are not healthy to the relationship.

Wasn't it established that he is addicted to video games? Or am I mixed up? If so, his reaction doens't really surprise me. You've threatened the crack pipe.

opt

sidenote -- I totally feel the frustration with the old "I already read it" line. I got that from the now-exww. A computer history revealed a grand total of 10 minutes researching MB concepts. ugh.

he has always held to whatever his mother opinion was, until I convince him there is another way... he doesn't stand up to her and when we make a parenting change he doesn't bother to tell her, it's left up to me, and I become the object of her wrath. I just about came to blows with her 2years ago, we didn't exchange words for at least 6 months. now we have a tentative relationship. I've watched her destroy the lives of each of her children(mostly a step son 10yrs younger than me) and I never stepped in because I never thought it wasn't my place and I didn't feel that I had the experience to tell her how to raise her children.
we actually attended a parenting course together only the first session or 2 and the instructor took us aside and profiled each of us and told him that the only to make things work with the in-laws is for us to live at least one town away from each other or H needs to grow a pair and stand up to his mother. I am seriously considering the moving thing since he can't seem to stand up to her. The first time I did she threw a temper tantrum and went to her room! I was flabbergasted! I've never seen an adult behave that way!.
I felt that it was but Dr. Harley said to proceed like as if he's not right now and wait and see how he reacts to things.

I'm going to quote a note from MNG from a pm we had hope you don't mind ...
thanks, I really feel like crap right now, I have read both of those letters and printed them off for us to read together. I can only hope right now....
the problems in both of those letters seemed too extreme and bold faced, his mother is more paranoid and manipulative and does/says things with a laugh to smooth it over but that doesn't change what came out. like just the other day she says to my 2yr old that he can come over whenever mommy says he can. thus shifting all blame/negativity for the consequences to me. I told H that she shouldn't say things like that and its not right because it's not just up to me it's up to both of us and it also depends on her availability too. she just set it up so that even if she's busy that day the blame will still fall on me that the kids can't go over.
it's always just little things like that she doesn't come right out or get in my face about things she manipulates the kids. H has learned not to quote her to me

he took the day off work(twisted ankle yesterday) and he has been grumpy/moppy on the verge of snapping all day. I don't think today is the day to bring it up again. he might need a couple of days...

Just remember .. its a marathon .. and not a sprint.

Your situation did not just occur over night and the changes you want will not happen over night either. It will take time for things to sink in for your hubby.

It took my wife a LONG time to get on board.

Be positive .. be calm, especially when your bringing up MB. Anything other than positive reinforcement will only lead him to dislike MB even more. YOu gotta show him and display to him whats in it for him because if all he sees is the bad stuff and what he has to give up and not what you have to change for him then he will not be enthusiastic about following MB.

You gotta sell it to him in ways that HE can see the benefit.

I try to keep that in mind...
thanks MNG

I HATE HIM! I HATE HIM! I HATE HIM! I HATE HIM! I HATE HIM!
GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Fri night he started to show signs that he was kind of getting it. he says to me "so I guess your not going to let me go out gaming tonight with friends hunh?" I thought about it for a minute, and as much bitterness was wrapped in that statement I thought maybe I should let him go so if nothing else he set things straight with his friends, but I put a condition on it. "If you want to go out that fine as long as 3 things are met.
1. dishes need to get done(this is a huge sore spot for us because I'm not capable of doing them right now, and he hates doing them with a fierce passion)
2. you spend some quality time with the kids before you go
3. since this is taking away from our potential UA time you need to come up with a plan and figure out how and when we're going to make it up over the weekend."
he agreed
He came down and did the dishes, sat down with the kids for 5 minutes, got them involved in a couple of games, and then left. You cant do that with kids this young!!!! they need guidance to learn how to play the games!!! he gave the 2 yrs old a shapes and colours game... how is he supposed to know what to do with it unless you're there each step of the way????
I tried to blow it off and whatever... at least he did the dishes. maybe tomorrow will be a better day.. HA!

Saturday....
It started with breakfast, and I knew at some point today we would have to go out to do some kind of shopping. everyone wanted something different to eat so I suggested we go out for a breakfast buffet, or WE could go out to pick up the stuff to make it all at home or we could go out for breakfast and make a quick stop for essentials, or we could scrounge for whatever at home but then we still need to go to the store at some point.
he said "hmm" and rolled over to read a book.
I thought maybe he's thinking about it or processing it so I sat there for 1/2hr or so waiting... waiting.. finally I said my blood sugar is dropping, we need to make a decision about our day and what we're doing.
he says "well we could swing a breakfast out if that's what you really want to do" ...well no, I don't want to do it if we aren't in agreement about doing it. so I said screw it and went and got myself a bowl of cereal. and he returned to reading his book. when I finished eating I came back and sat down to wait for him so we could plan our day again.. after 1/2 an hour he looks at me says well aren't you going to go eat before something happens? .....SERIOUSLY??? already done!!! he says oh, and continues reading. I waited another 45 min, and went upstairs to bed to cry for 1/2 an hr.
he eventually comes up and says "I guess those hormones can be pretty hard to deal with" then right away says he probably shouldn't have said that. I looked at him and said "you know, I fight depression every day!"
"are you sure?"
"yah, I know what depression is, and part of the way I fight it is to have a plan everyday, so that I don't feel like the day is a total waste of time" and it helps me regulate how much I'm doing so I don't over do things.
He said "well why haven't you gone out to the shopping?"
me "because I was waiting for you to reciprocate your thoughts and desires for the day so we could come up with a plan!"
Then the kids came in so conversation ended. when they left he said that I could go to the store and pick up what we need and when I get back we(and by we he means I) could make a nice breakfast(it's now lunch time) and then we could all go to the library and he could read books with the kids.
I suggested that we could all go to the store so it would be easier on me,
he said I could take the 5yr old so he could carry the basket.
If I take the kids we take a shopping cart (so they aren't pulling on me or running away or touching, either way it's more difficult, if he came he could take the kids on little missions to get the items we need to save me some of the pain that these outings cause).
Well at least it some kind of a plan.... I went by myself...
got home and I was so exhausted emotionally and from being in pain, that I could barely stay awake. I dozed on and off for an hour or so in the chair with him right there reading his book and ignoring the kids(which is why I don't leave the kids alone with him very often) eventually going back up to bed to rest for 15 min.
I came down and asked him to pick something up for me from the store and he said he would do that if I would make breakfast. I felt like that was such an jerk of a request with the way he had treated me this morning but I had intentions to do it anyways so agreed. by the time he actually left I had breakfast almost completely ready... *sigh*
so because it was so late in the day now the library didn't happen, I have no idea what either of us did for the next couple of hours until it was time to get the kids ready for bed but either way he was back on his computer and we had to call him in for bedtime prayers... like we do every night.
he came downstairs and read a book while I watched a couple of shows and then went back upstairs to his PC. he posted a link on FB earlier about how gaming was going to save the world and how we need to game more.... I now sat and watched this 20min video of pure bull-piss! I was already tired and so I went to bed and cried some more...
He wonders why I'm fighting depression... it's because of him! I internalize the anger that I have for him. I spent the entire day hating myself, hating my life/situation, and then my frustration with him at the end of the day turns to hate which then turns to more depression because it's the only way I can deal with him and not throw him out since he has to be present in order for things to get better...

Oh girl, why on earth did you agree to him going gaming? You are shooting yourself in the foot. Time for gaming is AFTER your UA time is met...not after some blank promise to do it sometime later.

You are blaming him for YOUR actions. Knock it off!

That list of things to do about breakfst was way too long, too many options. In negotiating, I have found it best to state my first choice, an optional second choice I am enthusiastic about, and state openness to any other idea. 2 choices, and an open invitation, and that's it! At the most!

TheQ, I agree with CWMI about agreeing to his gaming. You made a sacrifice which made you all the more resentful when he didn't keep his end of the bargain. Sacrificers keep SCORE and when the score is not even, they become angry and resentful. So please don't agree to things you don't like anymore.

And don't get discouraged that your first foray into negotiations went badly! My own was so bad that my H and I can't show our faces in a certain grocery store again! Just pick it up and try again.

I thought it was only fair to him to give him the chance to set things right with his friends since this has been going on for years. I thought it might ease some of the resentment on his part so we could start fresh this week. kind of like giving him the opportunity to say good bye to a lover?
I wont do that again, that's for sure! he's had his chance.. as for keeping score.. I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing but until we get the handle on spending an adequate amount of time together (and because my baby brain can't retain anything for more than a day or 2) I made a chart so we can keep track of how much time we are spending together so that at the end of the week we can see clearly whether or not there is time/room for friends or other activities. I don't intend to keep it up forever just until we can get a handle on this. maybe I should keep it on the fridge so we can both see it easily, otherwise I was going to keep it beside my chair more for my own reference.

I will keep that in mind for next time, thanks. I would pause after each suggestion to see if it was something he was agreeable to and when there was no response forth coming, I would offer up another idea, wait, no response, and offer another one until something either sticks or I run out of ideas. but I can try it your way next time and see if that works out better....


I can't tell you guy's how much I appreciate your help and insights. It means so much to me... thank you all so very much!

The way to do this is to sit down once weekly and schedule out your UA time. It doesn't happen by accident, but by design. It is too easy to put this off if the time is not scheduled. You write out the date, time, planned activity. It should be away from children and ideally out of the house. But are you able to go out in your condition? Do you have the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love? There is an UA worksheet in there.

No I don't have the book, I do have the The Recreational Enjoyment Inventory from the website here. is that the same thing? or would it be in the love busters book?
I can do small things that don't require much like I can go to the movies or a coffee shop and sit for a couple of hours or long drives, that kind of stuff is about the extent of what I am capable of at the moment. I can do a short walk to our destination but there has to be a place to sit when I get there. I quite often compare myself to a frail granny who can't walk much. I can do about the same kind and amount of stuff, lol

I found the UA worksheet and graph online.. so I copied what I saw and made up my own pages that look the same for the meantime.

I have ordered the books, 5 steps to romantic love, and his needs/her needs for parents.

so as of right now he's not interested so much in the MB stuff, but he did take something to heart though... he said just sitting watching a show is not enjoyable for him but he does enjoy TED (http://www.ted.com/) and then it would be something we could talk about it, with the potential to lead to other conversation/ideas ect.
It's like once he's pushed in the right direction he decides how he wants to do it.
it's something I guess... a place to start, right? baby steps?

That's great you got those books on order. Did your copy of lovebusters come?


IT's still a bit early .. and part of that is probably due to his resentment that he can not do what he wants to do and the other part of that is probably because he hasn't seen whats in it for him yet.


The question you should be asking is Are YOU enthusiastic about his idea? If not .. then your answer should be something like "I am sorry hun, That doesn't appeal to me lets continue to negotiate until we can both really agree on how to spend our time together"


Its going to take some time .. but you will need to show him how the MB program will help make him feel in love with you! Its baby steps sure .. but you have to remember that time in front of the TV or computer is not really UA time .. it can be as long as your interacting during ... but if your ignoring each other, then it doesn't count.

MNG

Edit for spelling and adjusting

There are several presentations from TED which, in my opinion, are quite compatible with MB. Two of my favorites are on vulnerability and the power of being wrong.

not yet

I see it as being up my alley of what I am capable of at the moment. I watch shows because there isn't much else I can do, so if this is the type of show he enjoys and it gets us talking on any level then I think its a step in the right direction. I did suggest a while ago about getting the newspaper and reading it so we could discuss whatever is going on in the world... I don't dislike it, as long as it's not controversial to something I feel passionate about then it really doesn't matter to me what we watch. ...and really if I was capable of doing more than just sitting here, watching a show wouldn't be my first choice of things I would want to do either. I see it as he's making an effort to engage in something I am capable of doing but at the same time trying to find a way so it'd not so dull for him, which I can appreciate.

even if it's not so interactive, is it not one step closer to becoming that way? I mean, how can you be interactive if you can't even stand being in the same room as the other person? when it's just so uncomfortable being alone in each other's presence, could this not be a way to help break the ice for something more meaningful? the show is a way to help us become relaxed with each other and gives us something to talk about afterwards...

I am very open to suggestions! I will suggest those for watching tonight. thank you

Last sunday I found out that the bishop of our church has in fact talked to H one on one and asked him to step up. H's response was that he does all that he can. HA! ya right! he doesn't do half of what he could be doing!

So Friday night confrontation came as I expected it would...
I had a 4pm appointment with a stress coach and I had marked that there was a bridal shower at 7pm
H came home from work looked at the calendar and said ~ so I guess I have to stay home to watch the kids. oh! or my mom could take them over night and we could both go out to our things!
Me ~ well that's one thought but I have a couple of problems with that. #1. if she has the kids then our time out is wasted because we are not together taking advantage of it.
H ~ well we could go out for burgers afterwards...
Me ~ and #2 is that I am not in an enthusiastic agreement about you going out with your friends to game. I gave him last week to set things straight so that was his problem if he didn't do that.
H ~ oh so now you're not going to let me go out with my friends?
Me ~ when we have spent an adequate amount of UA time together then it can be negotiated.
H ~ well, it's not always about gaming.
Me ~ then will you leave your gaming bag at home?
H ~ no! we might decide to game!
Me ~ that's the problem!
he stormed off in a huff to his room and I went to my appointment(after making sure he was ok with me going). when I got home I asked what the plan was and he said he would stay home with the kids.
I suggested that there was another option, if he wanted his mom to take the kids we could both go out together instead.
he said he was too frustrated for that and told me to go to the shower. which I did.

today we had issues from the very beginning of the day, rather than actually dealing with the children he just kept yelling at them. so I figured this was left over from last night. I spent most of the day trying to do a little bit of laundry while he spent the day on his PC.
this was the tip of the iceberg...
I went out to do a little shopping, the more I do the more pain I'm in and the longer it takes me to do it. when I get home he tells me he doesn't understand why I do it all at once instead of breaking it up and doing some on Monday instead. really??? or he could've shown a little consideration and done the shopping for me! do I really have to spell it out for him? why can't he just have the decency to help out? I even told him before I left that if I go out to do this it will do me in for the night... do me in, no kidding! I started having contractions! I can only guess it's from the combination of over doing it and the stress! he will sit there and watch me get up and down a dozen times to deal with various things throughout the day that to me are very obvious, and never do anything to make life more bearable for me. he behaves like he deserves to be catered to when I'm the one in pain! what the heck???

no the books haven't come in yet, but I'm starting to become concerned about the effect of forcing this issue right now

I also just got a key logger I have it on my pc and I will have it on his by monday. I know he's still gaming even though I feel that I have made it clear that I'm not ok with it and that it needs to stop. he did listen to the radio show last week too! I knew this wasn't going to be easy but if it's going to cause me to start having contractions... I just don't know...

BTW, HHH... we did watch the TED about the power of vulnerability. we both found it interesting but couldn't talk about it because there was so much to process. we decided to watch it again tomorrow night.

I'm not an expert at MB, but I wanted to advise you to ask your H to help when you need it. Simply phrase a polite request, "Hey, honey, how would you feel about doing XYZ for me?" Make it very specific and make it a respectful request, not a selfish demand. If he says no, you will have to be courteous. But keep asking.

My H will always help if I ask; he doesn't know I need help unless I ask him. Sometimes, he will ask me if I need help, but by now, he knows he's "off the hook" unless I ask for his assistance. But I have to be very specific.

My daughter used fume about her H not helping after dinner with dishes or the children. I advised her to simply ask him politely, that he doesn't always see it or he figures the work is well in hand. Like my own H, her H is always very willing to help when courteously requested.

I'm sorry I can't answer to the rest of your post. The POJA is a wonderful tool, the foundation of a good marriage, we believe now, but both people have to agree to it. Both people need to learn to understand that it's not about asking permission to do things; it's about creating a partnership/marriage/friendship that will be free of the bad kind of resentment. You and your H will need to come up with some ideas that will take the place of what he used to do and that will make you both happy.

My H is/was also a gamer. He used to buy all kinds of game pieces, hundreds of them over time, and sneak them into the shed so I wouldn't find out how much there was. So now in our "new" marriage, he and I play games together and he enjoys this just as much and sometimes more than gaming with buddies. Over time, I became his favorite RC companion. It took brainstorming and an open mind and some time, but it can be done.

I always figured that if I say what needs to be done and express the effect it will have on me it gives him the opportunity to step up... but he never does
later that night I asked him what he wanted to about a bday present for his dad. he grumbled that I was supposed to do that while I was out. I said yes, but I came home said I am not capable of walking anymore and was done for the night. thus shifting responsibility for getting it done to him. I gave him an option and asked for other ideas and then he left for the store. he came back with a pop for himself. I asked him what we were going to do then, because I thought he was going out to get something for his dad. he says I don't know that was your job. so I offered 2 options the 2nd idea goes against our belief system, he chose the 2nd.

I changed the way I said things because he used to complain about me nagging him whenever I asked him for anything. so I figured the way around that was not to directly ask but make it known what was needed and wait for him to step up... I can go back to asking though, I don't think I ever did it disrespectfully, I always say please and thank you...

well last night we had a very long talk I asked him how he would like me to approach him when something needs to be done so that he doesn't feel like I'm nagging him. he said he would be ok if I went back to asking him directly.

we talked a lot about the MB concepts (without actually calling it MB), we talked a lot about his resentment and how much he feels he's been asked to sacrifice, he's really bitter about the friend thing, and doesn't know what to tell them. I told him that if they are true friends then he should be able to tell them that he's taking a break for a bit and will see them again when he gets his marriage back on track. Being true friends they should understand that, and knowing them myself I don't see that should be an issue, but that they will wish him the best and leave things open for him to contact them when he's ready to.

he said that he feels like he is constantly sacrificing and doesn't feel like his opinion matters because I do whatever I want to do regardless of what he says. but when I actually got him to talk about examples or specifics so that I could understand his point of view it came down to he didn't want to upset me so he just let it go. I told him that by doing that the problem isn't resolved though, and that I end up feeling like all the decisions are left up to me because there is no/very little input and makes me feel like a single parent. it made me think of the giver/taker article but I couldn't remember it exactly at 1am to explain it properly. I think I will have to review it and review the steps to negotiation. he said he doesn't know what to do with our UA time, so we talked about figuring out each others EN and using that time to meet them. we talked about his mom a little bit but he thinks he doesn't see the manipulation and stuff because he grew up with it and just became accustomed to it. I suggested that if it was a problem hearing about it from me (like if I just put him on the defensive about it) then he could talk to his uncle (who actually took me aside over the summer to see if I was aware of the way she treats the kids when I'm not around. nothing his uncle said came as any kind of surprise to me because I had already seen the same things and drawn the same conclusions).

I don't know for sure but I think he's coming around to it ...as long as I don't actually call it MB.

I made notes from the transcript;


http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2523084&page=1

wow! thank you... that's an awesome thread! that will definitely give us some meat to chew on for a bit. thank you

so to update...
so I thought things were starting to get better between us. His mom took the kids over night last friday so we could work on us and building UA time. we managed to get in 13 hrs last week YAY! as opposed to 8hrs the week before and even less the week before that.

I got the books, love busters, his needs her needs for parents, and the 5 steps to romantic love workbook. do I wait to read them until he's on board with reading them together? which is what I really want! or do I just read them by myself? I've already read most of the stuff on the site here by myself, is this just going to be me trying to fix things by myself again?

I put a keylogger on all our pc's, and today I finally got around to looking at the screen shots... he's been into porn... transgender porn.. what the heck??? Now I need to go find and read those articles about porn. I haven't finished sorting through and cataloging the findings but I feel like the more about him I get to know, the more I feel like I die little inside...

how can we have a relationship if I can't even trust him to be honest with me. I am feeling like he tells me what he thinks I want to hear, to pacify me, so he can do what he wants to do.

Every week I find out there's one more complication with the pregnancy and I have to reduce the stress in order keep things going smooth. I'm becoming increasingly concerned about carrying to term. Do I really need this stress right now? I know Dr. Harley said it would be better for him to suffer through resentment and to address this stuff now to make the forgiveness process easier... but at what cost? I feel so hurt and betrayed right now...

Q ... that sucks ..I am very sorry to hear of your hubbies porn addiction. You mention looking for the articles on porn .. so i went and found them for you.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5050a_qa.html - part 1

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5050b_qa.html - part 2

In my situation, I read the books I had first.Mind you I only had His Needs her needs (not for parents one) and that was the starting point for both my wife and I in regards to books but I still read it before we read it together.

Your hubby has to get away from the PC .. porn is a hard habit to break .. especially if the hubby feels his needs are not being met. However .. that is NOT an excuse. If you are offended by porn .. and feel its infidelity of sorts .. then you might want to take a look at this article.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8501_fft.html - Whats an affair?

I am sure the vets will be along to give you some better advice but figured I would post the info your looking for.

MNG

edit to add a link to a thread by Pepperband that you may find useful on this topic.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2567688&page=1

Thanks MNG I feel like I'm in shock, I can't believe you were right about this. I thought this was dealt with years ago and hasn't been an issue since, I thought it was just the gaming we were dealing with now(which he has stopped doing with his friends for the time being, but is still doing on-line). I feel like cancelling the internet but that would also cut me off from this kind of thing... that or else putting a lock on his pc so that everything he does is on mine and in the open...

does porn equate to an emotional affair?

well, I caught him on my pc this morning looking at it, so we had it out this morning...
he said it only happens while I'm pregnant and then quickly ends afterwards. He said he's ashamed of it, and he has agreed to go through the marriage builders program together and read the books together.

so I suppose something good might come out of this after all. he has agreed tonight we will sit down together and figure this out. I'm going to be in sooo much pain today after this, and I'll have to watch for other stuff... *sigh, of all days this could have happened, I suppose I should be thankful this happened on a day when I was scheduled to be in the hospital anyways....

Thats a great sign Q, I am glad he finally descided to take the plunge. I think you should start with the his needs her needs for parents book and then love busters .. followed by the workbook .. hopefully you didnt tip your hand to how you found out about his porn .. you should just "know" and he can wonder. (for now). This is a HUGE step forward .. he will finally see and be able to grasp the entire concepts now that you guys can work the books together. They make GREAT UA time after the kids are in bed.

Keep up the good work.

EDIT: Here is a link to what may be going on in your hubbies head .. its page 9 of the link i gave you before that lead to peps thread. http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2567688&page=9

Here is also an article on what the good DR. says about snooping... http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8121_snoop.html

Cool your jets, and breathe.

It's for more normal than you might believe when it comes to internet porn usage.

You can Google about Porn addiction and/or Pornography induced Erectile Dysfunction.

Those with testimonials include hundreds of stories of men falling into transgender, or even gay porn... despite no real-world attraction to these things. It's a function of escalation of the addiction.

It needs to stop, cold turkey.

I hear you HHH.. we talked about it last night and I did some research on it the day before, after I found out about it.

MNG I haven't told him how I know, last night while we were talking I told him the reason I was so distant the day before was because I was trying to figure how to ask him if he was having an affair or was into porn, because I knew that something wasn't right. he seemed satisfied with that.

I have gone through and cataloged everything from the keylogger. I found with the time he spends on gaming, porn, and other internet stuff seems to be pretty equally split. either way his time on the PC still outweighs the time he spends with me. that should get better with time though, I think, as we go through the books and address each issue one by one.

I thought after our blow up yesterday morning that would be the end of the porn, but sure enough while I was out he was at it again... but then we had a very good chat last night after reading the first chapter and intro to Love Busters. so I guess that's where we are starting. I think I will let this go for now and see if there is any change here on out. if it comes up again I will call him on it.

If he is into transgender stuff, it is going to come up again. It's part of escalation, and a hallmark of addiction. He'd probably never a book a flight to Bangkok to pay for a shemale, but he's looking at it because he has overstimulated the pleasure centers in his brain and needs hyper-stimulating images to induce response.

You would notice this in decreased sexual performance when the two of you make love - decreased erectile function, premature ejaculation, or difficulty reaching climax.

From what I have read, those who have broken the addiction take a 90 day period of abstinence from Porn, Masturbation, and Orgasm (PMO) to return to "normal" sexual function.

The problem is this; that's 90 days of denying those needs.

I don't know... maybe a modified version of sexual aversion exercises would work...?

dang and he was at it again last night... I really thought we had come to an understanding about it... I think my next step is to point blank ask him to stop and never look at anything along those lines again, and to come to me when he's feeling inclined to.
He offered me some SF last night so we talked about if he is just trying to fill my love bank by doing so or if it does something for him. he said he likes it so I agreed to it. I was hoping that might fill his need enough that he would be able to resist the other stuff, but obviously not. he didn't ask for anything more.

I did find it interesting though when I was going through the key logger yesterday that Internet explorer (I don't use) saved my search for the porn addiction article here in its history and he apparently saw and read them too...

Hi Q .. you can put some "cleaning" software on your PC that will clear that up if you dont want your hubby snooping on you while your learning here on MB. Its called ccleaner. get it here and run both the cleaners on it. When it asks you to make a back up of the registry just say no and fix all the issues it finds .. and repeat til it finds no more.

http://www.piriform.com/

I also went back over your entire thread and wanted to point out some earlier advice that was given to you .. maybe its time to take action with the suggested things from earlier.

First there is this ..


And this


And this one


Possibly even ESPECIALLY this one..


This one too ..


And ..... this one



ANNNNND this one!!!! lol ..


Infact, Possibly You should read and reread your thread a few times .. this way you can grasp your scenerio better and see where you were at before and compare it to where you are now.

Keep up the good work Q .. its a marathon .. not a sprint.

MNG

Thanks MNG.. I needed that.

well as far as the porn thing goes I addressed it point blank last night. as soon as he got home from work I proved to him that I can still fulfill his need for SF and then told him that I want to be able to trust him again but I can't do that if I keep getting inclinations that the porn hasn't stopped. So I asked him to commit to me to never touch it or look at it again and to come to me when he feels the urge or need arising. so he did commit. the words were very clear so that there was no mistaking or misunderstanding the meaning or anything like that. I told him that I don't ever want to have to talk about this issue again and I asked him to make it a priority so that we never have to be here again.
I feel that this is the most honesty we've had with each other in a long time. granted I was doing most of the asking and he didn't offer up any extra information beyond what I asked about, but I feel that he was more honest with me about it than he has been in the past and I didn't hold back with any questions or concerns that I had.

I can only deal with one issue at a time so since this feels like the priority issue I will give it a couple of days before pushing anything else as we continue to read the love busters book together.

I had an appointment with my stress coach last night but he said he didn't think that was fair unless I was willing to give him time out with his friends. That's the first time he has ever said that he wasn't ok with me doing anything. He sees things as though he's doing all the bending and I wanted to show him that I was willing to bend as well to make things work here so I conceded to it although it wouldn't have had any effect on our UA time, I decided to make my appointments for that during the day while he is at work, like I do with all my other appointments. it's just terribly inconvenient to try to find child care during the day. oh well, if he insist on me being home while he is then I am fine with that, because I feel it is worth the relationship.

So... I have just learned that my Husband has Aspergers. This explains A LOT of the problems we've had. Now I'm trying to learn as much as I can about it so we can better work through this.

They make GREAT students of Marriage Builders!! Many computer techs have mild aspergers. I think we have a few of those around here, Didn'tQuit's husband and Markos come to mind.

We have had quite a few Asperger's spouses here and most have been successful recovery stories. Aspies always tell the truth. Radical Honesty is their greatest asset. Also they love having and following rules.