I have VAR in her car, keylogger on computer and constant access to her phone and records. Only thing I can not access is her work laptop and email but the security is so tight on that she would not be stupid enough to risk her career using them to carry out the affair. People have been fired for that exact thing.

That is my plan, I'm not going to agree to her demands in divorce, I will not waive the 6mo. "cooling off" period and will continue to be the best person in her world.

Exacty. People risk their careers and get fired for that. Your WW wouldn't be any different. Here's your task - find the way to put a keylogger to her work laptop. Does she bring it home with her? Does she work over remote access at home?

RCX-

My FWW and I are in recovery now and have used marriage builders as our guide step by step. I have read your thread and you are doing a great job to turn the tide.

However, I believe you have missed a critical piece to the puzzle (as I did at first after discovering my FWW affair).

Attraction and Respect.

I too, was guilty of poor past behavior (as many of us BS's are). If in your case the actual behavior was the real cause of her problems, wouldn't she be thrilled to have the man she always wanted and be willing to work on the marriage? Logic would tell you.. Yes. Prblem was, my behavior caused her to lose RESPECT for me and her attraction dropped to the floor.

However it is my belief that your situation is very similar to where mine was over a year ago. Your W may or may not be in communication with another person. What is clear is that her attraction level for you is low. Women follow their attraction. It comes in many forms. Respect, eliminating LB's on and on can improve this. Bascially, Dr. Harley's teachings.

What turned the tide for me was when I started focusing on ME, becoming stronger as a person. Happy all the time (even when I didn't feel it inside), didn't discuss our 'future' together, removed expectations and so on.

Once I started having standards for HER to live up to (even though at that time she still was undecided on what she wanted), started acting very self-confident, happy, go-lucky, she knew that with or without her, I was going to have a great life.

She began to see what she stood to lose. This is what you want.

Basically, I became the person she met years ago and the result was she fell madly back in love with me! Now we have FS at least 5 times a week, with her initiating it.

Her ATTRACTION level has skyrocketed for me. By using MB principles and also focusing on myself, we on a strong road to recovery.

Food for thought.

One additional point is that I also dropped ALL NEEDINESS in her presence. The more needy I was, the less she wanted to do with me.

When it became clear that I wasn't going to cling to her and act needy, this was a factor in her attraction growing for me.

neediness = attraction killer

20YearHistory,

I completely agree and this is exactly what I have begun this last week. I have been going out with friends, teasing (flirting) with her and when she is down or angry or grumpy I just smile at her and say something like "how can you be sad, look at how wonderful it is outside... I'm going for a run". This is another reason I think she is so angry, because I'm smiling in the face of tragedy. Another thing that makes her attracted to me is when I compliment her or someone else in public. Or displays of manly compassion, she loves that and for some reason lately my daughter's actions have allowed me show these acts of compassion like crazy over the last few weeks.

She was attracted to me when we first met because she said I had an "edge" and didn't back down from anything. I have not backed down from anything yet including her selfish demands in divorce. I was calling her a few times a day to "see how she was feeling today" to show how I cared for her but she told me to stop so I did. Now she is contacting me a few times a day to tell me simple things that could wait till later.

She may or may not be in contact with another man, if she is the relationship is SO new that it means nothing at this point (of course it could build steam quickly). However as of now I have no evidence of any other contact with anyone. I can see that she still loves me and still wants me by her actions. She is just so afraid of getting close to me and getting hurt again.

What concerns me, is that her first affair was never exposed. Does anybody in your family knows about what you were dealing with 2 yrs ago? Do you have children and do they know?

The second thing that concerns me is this:



I just do not believe it. This change in her attitude towards you is a result of something from outside. I would be glad of course, if it weren't, really, but this is just too common.

I will ask again - can you get her work laptop somehow and does she use remote access from home sometimes? I would also pay couple of surprise visits to her work place, ask her to lunch or coffee, ask her to introduce you to people, show you around or something, and watch her reactions closely. If that were a workplace affair then she'd be freaked out.

RCX,
I know we've given you a lot to think about. And I know it probably seems real urgent, and you just want this all to go away, but it does take time. You seem to have a great game-plan and a very good approach. I know you have the strength and resolve to maintain your path, and that's exactly what she needs (even though she won't admit it or even respond to it right now). You are the rock she will be looking for when and if she ever pulls her head out.

Have you been listening to the MB Radio show at all? I still say it gives such a different perspective on all this, I believe it's invaluable. We all tend to have our views which are more or less accurate I think, but when you hear Dr. Harley's tone of voice calmly explaining things, it just helps solidify what you've read. Tone never comes accross great in a post, email, or other means like actual voice of the author of this stuff.

Anyway, the above: I absolutely LOVE the idea by Recon6. She has given you a great tool. You will know everything you need to know just by showing up there. I also believe her reaction will give you something to "expose". Even if all you have is a lot of defensiveness and unease, it's something to go to the ones who support your marriage with: "I need your help. I think something is going on with Mrs. R. She acted very strangely when I went to see her at work. I think there might be something going on with someone there. Would you please talk to her and use your influence? She is not listening to me, ever since the texts I found with OM. This is too much like the EA she had before. I can't go through that again, we really need your help to save this marriage. "

I did my exposure very poorly. I hope you can avoid the same mis-step. You have an advantage I did not have - the Exposure 101 thread. Take some time to familiarize yourself with the concept now, in case you have to use it. That's my seasoned advice.

opt

I just wanted to add that I was very encouraged by this, RCX. I'm glad you're not playing into her desire to have the fantasy divorce (they ALL want it). I believe it's okay to let her know the truth in clear terms that you are in the marriage to stay and that you will not cooperate with any plans to destroy what you've built together, however broken it is or however rocky it has been. It's at least something.

[as an aside. I don't know if you know my situation but I have been dating a lovely woman for about 15 months. She is MB all the way and we use POJA, and talk about EN's and have all that going on. But, I have to tell you, we were sitting on the couch together the other night (we NEVER watch tv). Just talking about stuff and it occurred to me that no matter how good our relationship is there are 20 years of our adult lives that we did NOT share together. No looking back and saying "remember when we went to visit grandma in 1998? No "remember when DD was 5 and she said (whatever)?" These are things that the waywards never figure on. They just throw the whole thing away. It's sad]

Anyway, if you read threads here you'll see people that do risk their careers for their affairs. It happens a lot. Careers, families, integrity, community standing, religeous convictions, fortunes. the whole ball of wax. Remember, wawardness it a DRUG and activates the same brain chemistry as HEROIN.

opt

She works for a very large company, nothing is able to be installed or deleted on her laptop without admin rights. Any communication she does through her laptop is filtered by company firewall (emails, ims...etc)

No visitors are allowed past the lobby conference rooms so no chance to meet any of her co-workers. She never goes out with them after work so no chance for me to meet them there.

My family all knows about her original fling but not hers, I doubt they would object to it anyway as their baby girl can do no wrong. I call it a fling because It really could not be called an affair as the conversation was only flirty, nothing of depth or meaning. It was stupid, inappropriate, childish, immature, insulting, disgusting but she never opened up to the guy or confided in him. It was only surface level conversation and compliments to each other. She ended her conversations with OM on her own once I returned home. (I was out of the country on business for 6 weeks when she had the original fling) Once I was back home and fulfilling her needs she came back on her own, she knows she has a good husband.

I think her last flirting episode was similar, she was lonely and wanted someone to compliment her so she flirted with a guy. He was nice to her and talked with her and made her feel valued so she flirted again, he was not so receptive this time and told her he was not interested in her. At the same time I started paying attention to her again and making her feel valued so she has no need to flirt now. Of course I will keep a clear eye on her and I may contact her corporate IT group and ask them to be on the lookout.

My wife is an incredibly impatient woman, when she makes up her mind she will achieve whatever she wants no matter what the cost. Instead of shoot first aim later she is more like:

1. Shoot
2. Make sure something/anything got shot
3. Check the range for risk of collateral damage
4. Aim
5. Decide if you really wanted to shoot anything in the first place

The way she is going about this is that she was so mad at me that the only way she could be happy was to get a divorce. She was so certain that divorce is what she wanted so she dove in head first without thinking it through. I can see that she is having second thoughts about a lot of it especially every morning. She could have another man at work but I really doubt it, she does have a divorce cheerleader... but I also think it could have to do with the way she thinks. She is only focused on how divorce is the only answer to her happiness and she is not looking around at any other options or who will get hurt in the process.

She is and has always been a very selfish, shallow, self centered, immature woman. I always thought she would grow out of it, and she has a bit but is still very immature for her age and professional status (both therapists have told me this). Can marriage builders help her with these issues as well? Don't get me wrong I was a jerk in the past but I have grown leaps and bounds in the past few years (friends family and colleges have all noticed).

I think that the only "issue" she seems to have is that she has very low boundaries around opposite sex and thus the entitlement of flirting. Her flirting is not a result of you paying little attention to her but her low boundaries. Also, since there were no consequences to her previous affair, she is even more entitled.

If I were you I would call a spade ... a spade. This "fling" was an affair, emotional affair and this has damaged your marriage. Yes, physical would have been worse and you wouldn't perhaps call it a fling then, but emotional attachment to someone can be as disastrous as PA.

I'm almost certain that there is OM involved in your WW's life. No woman would pursue a divorce just like that, these are just rationalisations but no real reasons.


Now, IF you are serious about Plan A, this is something you need to learn - this is disrespectful and part of the Plan A is to stop lovebusting behaviours. Even if your WW is not here to read, you have to learn how to not disrespect her behind her back and to other people. It is OK to express how this all makes you feel, but it is a DJ to say something what you just did.

Snoop more and find a way to pay her a visit, you can show to the lobby, too, this has smaller effect, but it still might. Think harder and find a way to show up unexpectedly and some place she is usually alone.

Does she never work from home?

Mrs_Recon6mo

Her low boundaries have always been a concern of mine, how can I express this to her without sounding too controlling? Also I agree my rant was a DJ, sorry.

Any of you former waywards, would you have gone through with the divorce if you had not been exposed?

If she wants to stay married to you she should know what are your requirements, too. If you have trouble expressing them face to face without LB-ing then you should just write them down. To get the idea of extraordinary precautions, click the thread of EPs Here.

Does she have a facebook page, any male liking her here, twitter account, any male twitting to her? Have you searched for another phone? How much do you actually know about her daily schedule and activities?

No new phones, no abnormal FB activity (i monitor it closely) no twitter, she is really not very tech savvy, can't even download an app on her own.

Her schedule is very standard, plus if I call her at any random time she always answers and has a normal conversation.

When you were wayward did you want a divorce? would you have gone through with it or you wanted the best of both worlds?

I wanted my cake and eat it too No divorce.

Also was your A an EA or PA, if PA how long did it take to turn physical?

RCX, not sure waht you're driving at here, but if you're looking for justification NOT to expose, you wont find it on this board, I would venture to say. It is simply the most effective way to get a wayward out of the fog. Possibly the ONLY way as they tend to go from one to another until they realize that the "whole world" is watching their every move. Dr. Harley advocates exposure. In fact he states that if we all thought we were being watched all the time the world would be a much better place (I'm paraphrasing obviously).

Also, the time schedule for EA to PA is probably weeks to years. It is true that the entrenched PA can be harder to break. But the EA has wreaked havoc on marriages. I've seen in 1st and 2nd hand.

It will take time. I agree with all the encouragement to snoop. Remember too that they eventually screw up one way or another if they're cheating. They get sloppy.

I say keep up the plan A.
I believe in MB -- even with a "selfish" wife.
One thing at a time, though....

Opt

Definitely not looking for justification to not expose, I just don't have any evidence worth exposing yet. I have some suspicion and will keep snooping as hard as possible but still coming up with nothing.

I was merely asking the question because it seems that usually waywards want to stay married, they want the security of marriage and the lust and excitement of an affair. My wife wants a divorce more than anything right now so she will not be able to double dip. Although she is asking for everything in the divorce... so in her mind she will have all of the spoils of marriage with none of the liabilities. Of course she will not get that!

I asked about the timeline of an affair because in most cases it seems that the betrayed spouse never finds out about the affair until it is well established. The texts I found were from last week and the relationship was in the infancy state before it was extinguished. If she is currently looking to build another relationship is't it much harder for her since I am currently meeting her needs with my plan A? Wont it be more difficult for her to justify or desire a new relationship when she is getting all she needs at home?

She has shown slow but steady improvement in her attitude towards me and us, I see more and more signs that she really wants to get close to me again but she says she is just so afraid to get hurt again. This morning she woke up and told me she was sorry for how she has been acting lately and thanked me for helping out so much and just being a good guy and being nice to her. I told her I was not trying to be nice to her I was just doing what a good person does. She seemed to be taken back by that and when she left for work she came over to my side of the bed to give me a hug goodbye, once she realized what she was doing she quickly got up and left. She does this quite often, she forgets herself and does something sweet, when she realizes what she has done she does something mean.

RCX, I was a serial cheater, my affairs were all physical and it took only very little for them to become such. My BH has been through a lot of sh$t because of this. I know what I'm capable of and I am doing everything I can to keep my last chance with him. But back to you!



It might but WWs are very irrational, so do not try to make sense in their behaviour.

I agree with optimism - you should snoop as hard as you can and during that time Plan A. I understand that there is little to expose yet. This EA might never turn physical although they almost always do sooner or later. EA is as devastating as PA, so do not wait for that. Have you confronted your WW about the text you found last week?

Have you really read Plan A thread I posted you because this is not just being nice and understanding there is a carrot part and the stick part in this plan. Please read it very carefully, print it out and plan your steps, because I see several signs there that your WW is in the middle of an affair. It doesn't really matter whether it is only in the beginning or some place else.

Your WW should also know that she is not going to get the divorce from you by any means. That you would like to stay married to her and make it work. This should be stated calmly but clearly. Have you told her that?

Again, I'm not that good with the infidelity stuff, but I think you have her head spinning. That you are implementing positive changes for YOU is great for yourself and your daughter, and ultimately for your wife if she chooses to continue to be your wife.

I wanted to elaborate on something I said earlier in response to your question about MB. (remember, I'm a nuts and bolts guy). What you need to be in love with your wife is for her to meet your EN's and not lobebust. Period. She can be as selfish and immature as she wants as long as she can still do those things. You married her and presumably you were in love with her at some point (trying to evaluate that now is difficult because we betrayds have a way of revising history also). "I thought she would change" is a frightening notion, but people do mature and they do grow up; especially if they are allowed to do so by running into self-made adversity. You can help by holdign her accountable for her actions and protecting your boundaries. [I did a good job of allowing my wife to hold onto her neuroses by not having boundaries and not being clear with her on what "marriage" meant to me -- I didn't know the first thing about boundaries or MB at the time, obviously.)

I still recommend listening to the radio show. I just feel that Dr. Harley gives a perspective there that you can't get here, or from reading the material. As the betrayed, you tend to have a sense of urgency and you just want the pain to stop. Immediately. I understand the need for action, but I think we often rush things durign this phase of the recovery (I know I did) without having a clear understanding of the concepts or how they affect our relationships. In Dr. Harley's voice, I rarely hear that urgency. Importance and control yes, but not the same urgency. Be calm, be patient, be strong...and prevail. That's what I hear.

opt

Excellent post optimism. It s hard to be patient.