My marriage has been difficult for the past few years. Long story short... about 2 yrs ago my wife had brief (2 mos) EA with old high school boyfriend, she realized what was happening she requested we go to counseling. Our first therapist was somewhat effective in changing my behaviors but not hers. I found a second therapist who uses methods similar to MB principals this was much more effective for us (along with what I get here).

We have been doing very well for the past 8 months or so, the best our marriage has ever been. She always commented on how happy she was, how much she loved me and we had been talking about having another child. This brings us up to about two weeks ago. I have been very busy with work and haven't been able to have our alone time or meet some of her ENs (help with our daughter or do house work). I always asked if she was ok and she always said "im fine, i understand you have to work"

This weekend she dropped a bomb on me... she wants a divorce. When I asked why she brought up a lot of my old behaviors which drove her to the EA in the first place and how they hurt her. I have not exhibited any of these behaviors in at least 6 months but she still seems to be hurt by them. She also brought up "never" helping out around the house which I agree I had not been keeping up on in the recent weeks but was doing a very good job up until then. When I asked why she didn't tell me of her feelings sooner she said something like "I shouldn't have to tell you"

I am 95% sure she is not having any sort of affair as I am a seasoned snooper after the first EA and she doesn't really exhibit any cheating behaviors.

I do believe she has PMDD. About a week before her period (which will start in a few days) she gets completely irrational and any little annoyance will cause nuclear war. About 6 months ago she threatened divorce (again just before her period) because we had a stupid argument, she ended up backing down a few days later.

Anyway here I am tonight scared confused angry and sick. We have talked about what happened and she told me some things i have been lacking on (I agree I have been lacking but not enough to warrant a divorce). I have gone into "super husband" mode paying special to her most important ENs trying to show that nothing has changed over the past two weeks and re-affirming my commitment to her.

Here are my questions and fears
1. Anyone here have experience with PMDD?
2. Anything else I should be doing besides Plan A
3. Should I keep up Plan A until the divorce is final (we have not filed yet, and it will take 6mos minimum to complete after filing)
4. Should I even want to save my marriage since my wife seems to have so little equity in it? I cant believe she is willing to break up our family because of a mis-understanding. One of my biggest fears in our relationship is that sometime she can show minimal commitment, like a fair weather fan (this was discussed in therapy and she said I was crazy for thinking it). Even if she does back down from divorce once her period starts I will always be worried about when it will happen the next time.

Sorry for the jumbled story, I'm just confused and exhausted.

Thanks

RCX,

Welcome Aboard MB !!!!!!

So sorry your struggling right now, I'll give you my impressions

1. My EXWW is was periods were pretty mild compared to what you've got going on. She would get testy but that was about it...... sorry no help on that one

2. Besides Plan-A I would put a DVR in her car and maybe track her as well, I kinda smell a affair on her part in spite of what you said. Only way to know for sure is to look real close. She may have just got better at hiding it, and if there is an A then you have no chance of recovery til that's busted up

3. Yes I would Plan-A until you can't stand it anymore, no one can tell you when you will reach that point. Plan-A is the best chance to move towards recovery (assuming no A is going on)

4. This is where I sense she is a user and sees that her needs are what matters. When you say she has so little invested I have to agree, she in many ways has already left the marriage and now she just wants you jumping through the hoops while she does nothing to help restore the M.

When you walk away from this I think it's important that you know in your heart that you did everything you could to save the marriage and honored your commitment.

Hang in there, I think you still got a chance to save this thing but you're going to have to find a way to get her to engage, Steve Harley does a great job counseling, there is a link to it on the home page under coaching center.

SC

PMDD would not make her ask for a divorce. (Do not get distracted with this idea and go down a path addressing it).

Snoop more. She has someone else in sight somewhere.

Meanwhile, do your best Plan A.

I would do a better job of snooping because I think you will find the affair has resumed. What are your current snooping resources? Do you have a VAR in her car? Spyware on her phone? That is where I would start. Get cell phone spyware with a built in GPS if you can.

Yes, it would. My daughters and I have had severe PMS/PMDD at times. In a week or two, she will probably be ashamed that she started talking about a divorce. The OP needs to go WITH his wife to see her gynecologist to discuss treatment options for her PMDD. She may also need individual counseling with someone who is familiar with the problem.

I hope you are right Kirby. Her period started yesterday and she seems to be thawing a bit yet is still insistent on a divorce. How long would it take you and your daughters to come around after your period started?

I have spyware on her phone and gps on her car, nothing unusual in her activity. Like i said she is not showing any signs of an affair, hasn't asked me to move out, hasn't said I love you but not in love... etc. She is always available during the day if i call and we are actually spending more time together. She has no new friends or new activities absolutely noting out of the ordinary. She is a very bad liar and I have asked her several times if she is interested in anyone else, her reply is a sincere No every time (I believe her when I look in her eyes). Believe me I am not in denial, I was actually hoping she was having an affair. I mean at least that would make sense.

Its so absolutely crazy the way she talks, like she wanted a change and had to choose between repainting a room or getting a divorce. But paint wasn't on sale this week so she is choosing to get divorced.

Welcome, RCX. Can you tell us what type of snooping you've been doing? You may be 95% sure, but it's the other 5% that concerns me.

It can be 2-5 days after it starts. Yes, it's awful. How old is she? Peri-menopause can do a real number on some women, too.

RCX,
I wonder if you could give an account for just how much extra work you've been doing and what it means that you "haven't been able to have alone time" and for how long has that been an issue.

Having a condition (which I know nothing about btw) coupled with decreased, or lack of, UA; could in this situation be very devastating for your wife...

...just an objective opinion.

opt

Quick update

Today is the 2nd full day after her period and things seem to be improving... yet she still wants a divorce. I asked her if she felt any different about me this week as opposed to last (pre period) she said that she does feel differently but is sure her negative feelings will return. She said she wants a divorce so she never has to have bad feelings about me again. I gave her a hug and told her I loved her, she almost cried. I believe she is still in love with me but she is just terrified that our relationship will return to the way it was a year ago. Her flight or fight response is definitely FLIGHT both of our therapists have pointed this out to her.

Optimism,

I think you may be right, during the two weeks leading up to her wanting a divorce I was working late hours and unable to return her phone calls. This made her feel like a very low priority. I was also not home when she fell asleep, she loves to cuddle just before bed while watching TV. Not meeting her needs during her "phase" only magnifies her concerns and fears in our relationship. Some symptoms of PMDD are:
- Only able to see the negative traits in people
- Hopeless about the future (including relationships)
Its easy to see how she would feel we were headed right back to where we came from.

okay, so can you start by scheduling some UA time? As much as you can muster. 20 hours would be the goal to get to. At first, she may not be interested in sitting down and looking at a calendar with you, but that's okay, figure out when she will be home and plan to be around at least. After a couple weeks of this she should start to notice. Eventually, 15-20 hours of spending time together, doing things you both enjoy (talking, cleaning the house, NOT watchign tv, WALKING/exercising, cooking, painting something, playing cards)...you can't help being in love with someone. It takes time and commitment but you can do it. I think this would be a great place to start.


opt

This is a great idea. I still think you need to take her to her Gynecologist and discuss treatment options. Don't go in there saying that she has PMDD, just say that she has these symptoms is there anything that can be done to help. Medication can be VERY good thing.

We have been having UA time as much as possible. This weekend was great we spent all weekend together working around the house and playing with our child. She was in good spirits and even quite flirty with me, however she is still saying she wants a divorce.

When I ask what would make her happy she says "Im so happy right now, but its only a matter of time before you change back". Just to clarify I have been rather grumpy for the past few weeks due to work and I am sure I have vented my frustration to her. It was not intended to hurt her but she took it the wrong way, when I explained this she accepted my apology but said she doesn't want to feel hurt anymore.

Here is where I get mixed signals, last week she was ready to file for divorce but I asked her to wait just one week to let me process everything. She agreed and said she would go this Friday. Last night I told her how sorry I was for making her feel bad for so long. I said I wanted to try to make her happy for our last few months together, she then commented that she thought we should separate before the divorce is final. When I asked why she was in such a hurry to get divorced she said "I'm not in a hurry, i don't think I will even have time to file on Friday". Yet later that night she told me she is trying to set up a meeting with a Realtor to look at a house on Friday.

She hasn't asked me to sleep in another bed, and during the night she will end up on my side and snuggle with me. If she wakes up during the night she quickly jumps back to her side. The other morning when she first woke up she took my hand and held it to her face lovingly, she then realized what she was doing and quickly got out of bed.

If I call her during the day she is super nice and loving, then its like she catches herself and starts being cold to me. Some times she is very loving and sweet to me, then she follows up with a harsh comment like she is reminding me that she hates me.

I see two options:
1. she is trying to get her new life all set up before she leaves her current one
2. she is not sure if she still wants a divorce but wants to watch me squirm for some time

And yes, as of now there is still no evidence of an affair. I have been tracking both her car, computer, and phone and there is nothing out of the ordinary.

I have never been more torn about what to do. For now I will just keep secretly implementing the UA time, it just sucks so much to stew in this whirlwind of emotions.

In general how effective/successful is plan A when practiced by only one person in the relationship? Could I actually push her away or make her shut down? She says the fact that I am being such an attentive husband is actually pissing her off. She said "how would you feel if you threatened divorce and all of a sudden I had a lot of sex with you"? I told her "as long as I felt it was real I would give you the benefit of the doubt".

My opinion is as long as I am genuinely doing things because it is the right thing to do and the right way to treat her she will have no choice to see that it is for real. Hopefully she is seeing this now and that is why she has not filed for divorce yet, hopefully i have planted a few seeds of hope in her mind. I explained that this has been like a near death experience for me, and I now know what is important in life (its not work). That all of my actions are real and will not stop because she is a good person and deserves to be treated well. I guess I have a few more months to prove this to her... if she still proceeds with the divorce at least im a better person in the end.

rcx, I don't have much time right now but I want to give you some thoughts later. For now I just have to say this above is excellent. I think you are approachign Plan A right. And you are right to understand that it's the actions, not the words that will eventually make an impact. Consistent actions over time. And if you modify your behaviors (the ones you think were negatively impacting your life) for the RIGHT REASONS as you stated, You really can't lose RCX. Remember too that those actions repeated become habits and habits changed consistently begets a character change - you literally can become a better person by conscientiously changing your behaviors. I can attest (although I'm still striving to improve in some ways, lol).

My ex said the same thing -- "you're pushing me away". I don't know why they say that. She was wayward, I'm not sure your wife is, but it's funny they both say the same thing. I think you're right to tell her how you feel also -- honesty and openness is NOT a lovebuster if presented in a caring and humble way.

You might not be able to sustain plan A forever, but be patient and let your giver take over for now. You seem to be coming at this from the right angle -- knowing that you have set up conditions that have contributed to your wife's unhappiness. You are taking responsibility for your role and trying real hard to make amends. In the process, over time, you will regain the trust of your wife (and yourself). But that doesnt' happen instantly and it certainly doesn't happen just because you say youre going to do something different. actions not words -- you're doing well.

opt

have you pursued medical attention WITH your wife?
I was going to say that we men don't always know how to deal with female issues, but as a married couple, if there is a problem it seems you would be best to consider it an "our" issue rather than an "her" issue... kwim?
I had something similar in my marriage, in retrospect I could have handled it differently.
opt

Optimism,

Thanks for your feedback. Just to clarify she never said I was pushing her away she just said it was "pissing her off" like it wasn't worth my time to show her love every other day but now that she wants a divorce she is valuable to me. My fear is that by me showing her love now could it piss her off so much that it actually pushes her away?

Once in a while I will come up behind her and give her a little massage, I asked her if she was enjoying it and she said yes. So she doesn't "hate" me and is not repulsed by me, I think she is just scared I will hurt her again. Some how I have to get her to open up just a little and allow herself to get closer to me over time. I think this is why she made the comment about separating before divorce, she is afraid of getting close to me again.

Also, I have not approached the hormone issue yet. I believe this is only a symptom or magnifier of our marriage issues not the cause. We will cross that bridge together when our marriage is strong enough to make the journey.

They usually want to separate so they can pursue the affair. So, I hope you'll forgive us who have been blatantly betrayed if we tend to lean back on those ear-mark signs of waywardness.
I believe you are right about the time factor, but only you can realistically predict how long it will take your wife to regain whatever trust she had in you. Only you know just what transgressions have lead to her feeling this way towards you. Only you can provide the consistent safe actions over time. But I still come back to your original statement that living right is advantageous in itself and should be strived for even without expectation of any other person's reactions. She may come back and she may not, but eliminating lovebusters is critical for your own healthy functioning and satisfaction with life.
It does take time, though, by golly. We've made such habits out of bad behavior which is generally accepted. The good news is that it doesn't take that many years to undue something -- the brain's plasticity (adaptability) is a wonderful thing. Persevere my friend.

I think your "Plan A" is going well although I encourage you to understand you are using it a little unconventionally. I think it is providing you a great opportunity for introspection and concentration on how you can make RCX a BETTER RCX, for you, your kids and your wife, and all the others in your life, but mostly for you.

I hope you are taking time to read the concepts here and maybe even a couple of Dr. H's books. Lovebusters is essential to you I believe, based on the posts you've made, and your areas of concern.

I wouldn't discuss the "Divorce" with her. Let her know you hope she doesn't divorce you but that you understand she has free will in the relationship and that you can't force her to be married to you. When she says 'divorce,' tell her you would rather create the best relationhsip with her that either of you ever imagined...even better than that. And that you believe you have found a program that will help you do that. The program you've been using thusfar has not lead to the BEST relationship (it's the same program that leads to 40% divorce rate in this country -- none.) She probably won't sign on right away -- lead by example and expect nothing.

opt

And keep being "around" 15-20 hours/wk. It's critical.

Thanks again for the support, I am still snooping but still no signs of anything suspicious. I met with our marriage councilor yesterday (the one who uses a method very similar to MB principals). After I explained the situation the councilor agreed the likely hood of an affair was low but not out of the question. She seems to think that my wife is very confused about what to do. She agreed that the way she is going about proceeding with the divorce seems very strange but that the path I am taking is the best one for our situation.

I also understand my approach to save the marriage is unconventional but I don't see another way to go about it. A major love busters for my wife is any kind of criticism so even suggesting she help work on the marriage would be like telling her "you broke the marriage now you fix it". I have to nurse us back to health and when the wounds have healed enough then we can begin working together.

During the discussion with the councilor we agreed upon the following:
- Working late = Wife is not a priority
- Working on weekends and not working on honey do list = Wife is not a priority
- Not available to take her calls = Wife is not a priority
etc...

This all happened over a 2 week time period when she was hormonal and also her period was late (so extra strange hormones). My wife's concern that she was not a priority during a hormonal phase magnifies everything and causes all kinds of old wounds to be reopened, her reaction is to run as fast as possible to avoid being hurt. Now that the hormones have subsided my wife is very confused as to why she was so certain she should get a divorce last week but not this week.

The councilor thinks she is in a "testing" phase keeping the divorce on the table but seeing how I react to things. This would explain why she hasn't filed yet and has no plan to file tomorrow. It also explains her hot cold behavior (does something nice followed by something bitchy) to see if I will lash out at her or blame her. She feels that my wife's comment about separating before the divorce is because my wife senses herself getting close to me again and wants to create some distance (some of my wife's other behaviors also support this theory).

We will see how the weekend goes, I'm hoping for the best but planning for the worst.

RCX, you're doing fine. It's a big long marathon and a daily uphill climb, but you can do it. Keep learning and reading and writing and asking questions her eand we can help buide you. At home, just keep being the best hubby you can be and let the chips fall where they may; that's not advice, just encouragement from an objective observer.

Your approach to savign the marriage is not unconventional around here -- we all tried plan A for at least a while. I was only saying that it's usually used in an affair situation to set up an eventual Plan B (separation with conditions on getting beck together). It's "look how good our marriage could be" as a last view of the R before separating adn saying "sorry, but I can't be around the abuse anymore, if you want to get back together, here's what I need to see from you..." Thats' a synopsis but you can read all about it on this website.

Read about Plan A. Read about LBers. And try to learn as much as you can about POJA. It's a gift from the heavens if you really can implement it, which you probably can't at this stage with a reluctant spouse, but eventually you can and must for your marriage to thrive. Which it will once you have reestablished yourself as the best husband your wife could ever dream of.

For this weekend I suggest you keep it light, but be around and try to do things with her when you can and if she'll let you. Try to meet her needs if her $LB is open to you at all; but don't expect anythign in return. She's very very protective (maybe even selfish...) right now most likely.

You've done well to NOTE what she feels she can't live with (the reasons to leave). So often, they don't tell you ("he should know by now what I need" -- that's manipulation and set up for failure, BTW, but let it go for now). Make your obervations and then make your adjustments.

Let her be "pissed" if she wants -- you're just trying to be a good husband and a better person. Let it be uncomfortable for her to consider divorcing someone so wonderful. Let her head explode with the conflict of it all. Ultimately she might come to the concluusion that she's most best off by being right at home with you where she is loved for sure.

Generally I am a huge detester of counsellors, but yours seems okay. If not just to talk about what you're learning here. I have no idea what a "testing" phase is. Good grief. Just be careful because they generally wreck more marriages than they save (like 999999 to 1).

opt

Well im ready for all the I told you so's... she has been texting a guy. Im not sure how far along it is (I think they have just met) but she is definitely into him. I found some texts talking about how he chose sleep rather than talk to her.

Uh oh. I was catching up on your thread and was about to post in support of the advice Optimism is giving you and pat you on the back for doing a fine job, and then I saw this.

Okay - maybe just another 'speedbump', maybe real bad news.

You need to confront this new situation ASAP. She is obviously still deep in the fog (sometimes I wonder if a Wayward EVER get out of the fog) so don't expect much. But let her know that you know what's going on, and let it be known that this is Independent Behavior and your marriage cannot survive IB. Plan A has a Carrot and a Stick - you've been awesome with the Carrot, time to use the Stick, no?

Linus

This will be her second EA in 3 years. Im not sure if I will ever be able to trust her again.

RCX,
please click "notify" at the bottom of your post and request that a moderator move your thread to the "Surviving an Affair" thread. Folks there will be more expert in helping you navigate Dr. Harley/MB principles for saving your marriage. You should order "Surviving an Affair" and read it, along with all the other material that's been suggested.

Nobody will say "I told you so." You never really recovered from the first affair (I have the tee-shirt on that situation). So, she's just going back to familiar territory (as you did to some extent).

This is your chance to recover the MB way and make your marriage better than before. It will have to be better, because obviously what ever you had before leads to affairs.

You are going to get a LOT of advice. It's going to be overwhelming. Don't panic. Try to take things one step at a time and be patient.

One more thing: I'm really sorry, man. Nobody deserves this treatment. You have every right to be all manner of emotional. You've done nothing wrong.

You can win this fight RCX. And I hope you do.

opt

Also, I agree with Linus that it's time to talk turkey.
It is NOT a love buster to outline what you'll tolerate in your marriage. If you are respectful and clear, you are doing nothing wrong to state what you'll accept and what you won't accept in your relationship; what you signed up for and what you didn't.

Your head is spinning right now, but when you are more focused you can absolutely let her know that you are not interested in a relationship with 3 people involved. Also, that You are also not in favor of a divorce where everyone holds hands and gets along like nothing ever happened. You can remind her that you signed up to commit to meeting her needs and although you've faltered that's no excuse for her to go outside the marriage, that you will fight for the marriage, to honor yourself your child and ultimately her, once she comes to the reality of what she is doing.

opt

Perhaps my feelings will change in the coming weeks but right now my thoughts are this

I will continue to be the best husband I can be, I can see I am already in her head and she is totally confused as to what is going on with me. When we talk about us she gets all teary and emotional, she knows she is leaving a good thing and the internal struggle is tremendous.

Her fling seems to have just started within the past two weeks. She was asking a friend of hers (who was also wayward) what he thought one of the texts meant that she got from her new crush. Based on the context my assumption is that she is asking her friend if he thinks the new guy is into her. But in another message she is telling the same wayward friend that she was sad because her crush wanted to go to sleep rather than talk with my wife, so it seems the other guy is not super interested in her. It seems to be flirting at the moment but still crossing boundaries.

If the fling fizzles out she will come crawling back to me... as of right now I do not think I will be there for her.

She was also telling her wayward friend how happy she was to go file for divorce tomorrow and they were going to have a party (what empty souls they are). So I cant imagine telling her that I know about her fling will really change anything right now. She is really trying hard to fast track our divorce to get on with her super awesome new life!! Eventually she will realize that her new grass isn't any greener and she will finally see the beautiful pasture she left to go wallow in some saw grass. I believe when she makes this revelation it will be the hardest point for me because I will have to decide what to do.

I'm just not sure I will ever be able to trust her. My fear in our relationship has always been that she didn't respect boundaries until they had been crossed. We addressed this after her first EA and she promised it would NEVER happen again. She told me she would let me know AS SOON as she started to feel lonely or vulnerable. And here we are once again in the same situation except for the first EA our marriage was like a beat up old junker that barely ran. I was much more understanding of why she would venture outside of our marriage then. Comparatively the marriage we have today is like a 2 year old Lexus that has a scratch in the door. It has its ups and downs like any marriage but apparently her vows didn't include the words Worse, Poorer, Sickness. She is in love as long as she has the world by the balls, as soon as things get a little difficult she is jumping ship.

BTW I think her new guy is at the gym she works out at, maybe ill show up tomorrow and hop on the machine next to them!! We can talk about how we are going to work out the sleeping arrangements over the next few months.

Hi, can I ask you something? In your earlier posts you said your wife wanted a 'change' and she was deciding on repainting a room or divorce....

**efit** Does she work? **edit**

In terms of love busters. **edit** Get her to order her emotional needs in a simple list then you can see where to focus. It seems the domestic need is high seeing she mentioned house-cleaning.. if your work is interfering with your time at home maybe you want to make some lifestyle changes for the sake of your family.. what is most important to you?

Make a list of your emotional needs as well. Dr. Harleys list. Don't get too thorough.. just a simple list. If you over-analyse you will lose sight... I hope this helps...

A reminder to posters that the purpose of the forum is to help posters learn Marriage Builders concepts. Please help this poster do that.

Thank you.

I will continue to be the best husband I can be, I can see I am already in her head and she is totally confused as to what is going on with me. When we talk about us she gets all teary and emotional, she knows she is leaving a good thing and the internal struggle is tremendous.
--- so you're plan A is having a positive effect. Good. Let her struggle with the poor choice she is making.

She was asking a friend of hers (who was also wayward) what he thought one of the texts meant that she got from her new crush.
--- RCX. Seriously. This a boundary that you must develop. No opposite sex friends. Period. You can see the devastating effects they have on a relationship. Please tell this loser to leave your wife alone. Protect your wife. Protect your marriage. This POS has no business influencing your life. Tell his wife, too.

If the fling fizzles out she will come crawling back to me... as of right now I do not think I will be there for her.
--- This is where the MB program must be implemented correctly. You recovered on your own last go-around. And look where you are now. If she comes back it must be on YOUR (MB) terms this time. Do you want to keep going through this? Maybe you don't take her back; that's your right and nobody will fault you. I urge you to consider the devastating effects of divorce however, not just on you but on your child, and on your financial situation. It's real ugly, man.

So I cant imagine telling her that I know about her fling will really change anything right now.
---Absoltely wrong. RCX. Half the fun of her little wayward escapade is that nobody knows about it! It's mysterious and fun, and clandestine and sneaky and exciting! You MUST elicit the help of everyone that cares about your marriage and ask for their help and guidance. You must shine a light on the sick little dark secret of hers. Expose it for what it is: a nasty disgusting addiction to a world of smoke and mirrors, and debauchery. Tell her you know. Don't let her operate in secret - it only prolongs the excitement for the wayward.

I'm just not sure I will ever be able to trust her.
---This is how I know you don't have a full understanding of MB principles. No MB spouse speaks of trust as a virtue. We hold our spouses accountable. We WANT our spouses to hold us accountable. It's a sign of our love for each other and our valuing of the marriage. Dr. Harley has comcluded that ALL spouses would cheat given the right circumstances and that NO spouse would cheat given the right protections.
---If you recover the right way, you will forget about trust and put extraordinary protections in place for each other and with each other. So this will not happen again. So this agony will not repeat itself. So you can teach your child how to have a loving protective marriage and she won't go out and find a mate someday and fall into the same traps the rest of us have.

BTW I think her new guy is at the gym she works out at, maybe ill show up tomorrow and hop on the machine next to them!! We can talk about how we are going to work out the sleeping arrangements over the next few months.
---This guy sounds like a typical loser out for some sort of excitement with a married woman. The lowest form of detestable, ignorant scum there is. However, I also don't think he's all that interested in your wife. I would expect he'll go away like a fly if you wave your hand at him. I would get his number and text him (maybe with your wife's phone). If he shows up again, let all hell rain down on his puny pea-brained head.
---In the meantime. This is only another of a string of EA's/PA's you can look forward to if you don't handle this correctly. The path to recovery from adultery is narrow and specific RCX. Dr. Harley has counselled thousands and has come up with a plan. A SINGLE plan that works. IF you follow it to the letter, you will succeed and restore your marriage to new heights not before imagined.

Again. You'll get consistent accurate and plentiful advice on SAA board. Take the thread over there for a real plan of success. But again I urge you to be patient; everythign seems urgent but this process does take a while. Including divorce -- she can't "fast track" it unless you comply with her selfish demands.

Oh, BTW, she's not going to like any of this. AT ALL. That's okay. It's still not a LBer. It's you protecting the marraige from a POS and from her already proven WAYWARD tendencies. It's you protecting yourself and your child and your wife.

And one more thing: before you go to the gym, GO TO THE BANK. Put a lock on your accounts or put your money in safe place. She will drain you, because you've "gone out of your mind, and I needed to protect myself from him." They always do.

opt

Optimism, Thanks for all of your support I see your point about exposing the affair and taking away the thrill of it.

Her wayward male friend has already divorced his wife so no use exposing there. It is just sickening how he is cheering her on, as I mentioned in an earlier post last weekend was great but after she went to work on Monday she was back forcing the divorce full steam ahead. Due to the POS cheering no doubt.

She is texting her new guy on a company issued blackberry that I can not add any spy apps to (locked down) she left it open last night by accident and that is how I saw the texts. Im considering calling her bosses and telling them she is using company property to carry out an extramarital affair. What are your thoughts.

Also exposure to her parents or family will do little because they will all say "well can you blame her, she was married to a monster" (her mother has painted me in a terrible light to their family, she is also petty and shallow). I am a fairly serious person and they are very bubbly... they take my seriousness as stuck up or grumpy.

She is supposed to go file for divorce today at noon... I would say there is an 85% chance she will actually do it. She was tossing and turning all night last night. She got up at 4:30 and wanted to talk. She snuggled with me (maybe for old times sake) and was very sweet and genuine then got ready for work. It took her ~3X longer than normal to get ready and I heard her crying so I believe she is quite torn about what to do.

I guess the main reason I doubt I will ever trust her is because of who she is. First she wanted a divorce because I never help out around the house, then it was because I didn't respect her, then it was because I didn't want to build a new house, now its because we don't go out on dates. She is such a materialistic person with little to no moral fiber. I knew this when I met her but I always thought she would develop into a real person. However after 9 years of marriage she is still a shallow 16yo girl who is only interested in what ever is popular today. She has no emotional attachment to anything, she has no depth or character. I'm not sure MB can teach someone how to have character.

I do have some love to her but not enough to want to save the marriage to be with her alone. If it were not for my perfect in every way daughter I would have left a long time ago. I honestly can not stand the thought of my daughter being raised by this simple shallow selfish woman. I suppose if she has a come to Jesus moment in the coming days/weeks and confesses all (total surrender to marriage) I will have to give her another shot but right now there is just not enough love for her.

I will request this thread be moved to the SAA room, please stay in touch.

EXPOSURE is you best weapon even if you don't think so at this time.

It has killed thousands of affairs and has saved many marriages.

You have a lot going for you in terms of saving your marriage. Simply EXPOSE and get into the Carrot of Plan A ... Be the best darn husband and fill her up with lovebank deposits.

Based on my story how would you recommend I go about exposing it. Also I have very little evidence of the actual text messages to her new fling. Only a message where she is talking to her friend about the messages to her fling with little detail to the message content.

RCX. I will follow you over there.
Exposure is important. But...
For now, I want to urge you to go to the bank. If she's going to the lawyer the next stop is the bank for her (unless it's prior).
You can always explain later but waywards always feel entiteld to the marital assets including the money. especially the money. put it somewhere safe and don't allow her to finance the war on your marriage with marital assets.

Your wife has succeeded to convince you that the current situation is somehow your fault. Which it absolutely isn't.

You have to realign your focus from your marriage "problems" which your WW has spoonfeeding to you to distract and blind you.

The real problem is her waywardness and affairs. You have to kill (expose!)the affair and show that you cannot be disrespected and cuckolded like that. Only then you can get back the respect and love from your wife.

Believe it or not, my wife still thanks me for the exposure and tells that her love and respect towards me increased greatly.

All assets we have are in both our name with mine as the primary, she can't touch anything without my signature. The only thing she can move is her own 401K.

She has not convinced me of anything, I freely admit that I have caused issues in our relationship (like every husband has) and I am working on my own issues. If being a better husband saves my marriage great, if not I'm a better person in the end. Even if she decides not to file for divorce the only way I will take her back is if she confesses all and starts acting like an adult. She has major accountability issues and nothing is ever her fault. She needs to understand that a marriage takes two to make or break it.

About the texts, I confronted her about it (yes I know not following protocol) she cried and confessed and showed me the texts. She was so ashamed and embarrassed since they guy she was flirting with (it was such childish flirting, inappropriate yes but not serious or sexual at all) told her he was not interested in a married woman, newly divorced woman, or single mom. She was so embarrassed that I knew and that she was rejected by the other guy. But maybe there are a few good guys left out there.

I met again with our counselor today, she basically asked me flat out "why do you want to save this marriage" referring to the fact that my wife has shown no growth whatsoever. Only the coming weeks will tell our fate, hopefully my good example will inspire her to grow hell up. If not I'm quite a catch and any adult woman would be happy to have me!

RCX, I'm glad your money's safe. They don't respect our hearts, our dignity, or our sanity, so why would they respect our financial well-being?

You don't seem to be falling prey to the gas-lighting. That's good. You seem to have an understanding of how this works. It's like a wayward sine wave. The only thing that will flatten it out is MB program with complete transparency and extraordinary precautions. "I'm so embarassed" is NOT recovery.

-- I would spell this out in no uncertain terms. In writing. Please don't leave it up to her wayward interpretation, they aren't even sane. Give her your conditions and hold her accountable. Start planning how to implement Plan B as you may need it; if you're thinking divorce anyway, this is an excellent course of action as a last effort IF you need it. (I couldn't follow that advice myself. I freely admit that. For whatever reason I couldn't muster a plan B. I often wonder what would have happened...)

This gives me great pause. My exWW to this day, even in her misery, will not consider that she might not be the best navigator of her own fate. She continues to try the same bad plans and hopes for different results. For whatever reason, the idea of implementing a plan "from a book" or concepts that have helped thousands of people save their marriages is foreign to her and beyond exploration. Some people just aren't cut out for MB. Unfortunately, without both of you involved to a high degree (it doesn't work in "just a little" MB mentality). I think this should be one of your conditions. I also think Plan B might eventually become necessary for her to see what she's giving up in her pursuit of divorce.

I applaud your confidence and I have no doubt you will be an excellent husband to one who accepts you one day. I hope that is your current wife. However, this thinking is a little premature in a way -- D takes a long time and I don't recommend dating for a while after anyway (also, if it goes this way it's going to be VERY tough for your kid, so dating too early poses serious problems, unfortunately I know first hand). If you are going to try to save your marriage, I recommend going in with both feet in the pool.

Typical.
Yes, a legitimate question and one you should have an answer to.
MB will provide you both with a way of growing TOGETHER and establishing a marriage you, your wife, and your child can be proud of.

~opt

So yesterday she was supposed to file for divorce at 12:30. She called me at 11:50 to tell me how much it sucks to have to get divorced and how if I would have been a better husband we wouldn't have to do this...etc. How she didn't want divorce because she has absolutely no feelings towards me but it is convenient for us to live together (total lie, she still has very strong feelings for me) I listened to her, didn't argue with her and just said "it doesn't have to be over". She continued with blaming me for our marriage trying to convince herself that it really was all my fault. I listened and didn't argue with her and when she finished all I said again was "it doesn't have to be over". She went on to tell me how if our marriage would be like it is now she would be completely happy and she is so mad that it took a divorce to turn me into a good person. I told her I don't blame her for being mad at me and how she was a smart woman (LB Deposit) to think my actions are all fake in an effort to avoid a divorce. I told her she was smart to not trust my words but I hoped her heart would trust my actions. Then I told her no matter if you file or not my actions will not change, I will continue to treat you like you deserve to be treated. She said well it doesn't matter because I'm filing and that's it.

After her trip to the lawyers office she was scheduled to look at some new houses for herself. She really can not afford any of these houses on her own unless our house sells quickly and for full price.

On my way home she called and said her and my daughter were at the mall (not at the gym like usual) and wondered if I wanted anything for dinner. When she got home I asked how the house hunting went, she was quite discouraged nothing was acceptable. Then I asked how did the filing go, she said she had to fill out a form and go back on Tuesday. This is not true the form is merely an application and only takes one person to complete, if she wanted to file she would have.

We had a pleasant evening and last night she snuggled up to me during the night more than ever. Even when she woke up during the night she would only scoot away a bit rather than all the way across the bed.

I really wish she had someone positive she could talk to to explain to her that all marriages are difficult at times but so worth it to work though.

Lets see how today goes

RCX,
I'm glad she didn't file. She's definitely on the fence. But what she does or doesn't do is nothing you can control. You are wise to thrive to improve your own behaviors regardless of her choices.

Sounds like she was bating you on the phone and you didn't bite. Good job. She wanted one last "see what I mean?!" before going to the lawyer's office.

I hope you have a good day with her and your daughter. Do something fun where you can talk (not the movies). Your daughter senses the tension I promise, so extra Plan A will help all the way around. I wouldn't ask about house hunting anymore or anything that has to do with divorce. That's her project that she can work on alone. You can talk about your marriage with her and how you'd like to strive with her to make it more enjoyable than ever before.

Right, but she has Divorced, Wayward, MALE, Work FRIEND instead.
I really don't know how to handle this aspect, but I think IT (I refrain from calling it a "him") is a real problem.

I'm wondering if you would speak to Joyce and Dr. Harley on the radio show. You could tell them about this "friend" at work who is having an effect on your marriage (in the ABSENCE (as far as we know)) of an affair with her. Also, voice your frustration that she has nobody in her life who views marriage positively (and she's not listening to you because she is wayward) and see if they have any guidance. --- The bonus would be that you MIGHT be able to get her to listen to the show.
The other positive influence would be Steve Harley in a phone counseling session. If you could get her to talk to him a couple times, she might just buy into the MB program with you. It's a lot of money. But so is divorce. If I could do it differently, I would have talked my ex into taking the money we would spend on lawyers fees and give the M a real shot with proven winners. Give it one year of really trying to implement the program (what's one year in a 7+ year marriage, right?). If it doesn't work you're only a year older and 4 grand in the hole (10 sessions), which is nothing compared with the thousands you will spend on a divorce.

opt

Okay, you have listened to her commiserate about how everything was your fault, how you're horrible, etc, BLAH BLAH BLAH, and you somewhat agreed with her, you can not do this again.

You don't talk to her about the divorce. You don't talk to her about the houses she is looking for. When she talks about these things, you say things like, "I will only discuss marital recovery with my wife, would you like some tea." She will get mad, but that's okay.

The reason she was so snuggly yesterday is because she is getting COMFORTABLE. A comfortable WS is BAD for your marriage.

Scotland,

Thanks for you input, I'll keep your comments in mind. However I do not think she is getting comfortable I really believe she is getting attached to me again. I talked to her about our marriage this morning and how it would be better for everyone if we just fix whats broken and stay together. She started getting mad and saying "why should I trust that you have really changed, I can't take your constant criticism any more, It will probably be the biggest mistake of my life to divorce you but I just cant take your negativity any more"

I have been quite a negative person in the past, I admit I do critique her quite a bit probably something like a "tiger mother" My father was the same way with me and I know how it made me feel so I can only imagine how it makes her feel. Like she is constantly being judged and no matter what she does it will never be acceptable to me. Our original marriage counselor pointed this out to me but I never fully understood, he said my wife is a somewhat weak person and has trouble standing up for her feelings... but I am one of the strongest personalities he has ever seen. Her homework was to strengthen her back bone and mine was to RELAX. I have settled down a bit in the past year, I quit nitpicking her on most things but I can still see how I negatively effect her. All she ever wanted was someone who accepted her for who she is and who was pleasant to be around.

However during this divorce process I have really changed my outlook on life, probably similar to a near death experience. Every day is a new adventure and always focusing on the positive, this transformation happened basically over night so I understand my wife's skepticism.

Anyway back to today, as we were talking I told her she was smart to be hesitant in believing that the changes in me are for real but I asked her to just watch my actions over time and trust her heart. She then yelled... I CAN'T TRUST MY HEART BECAUSE MY HEART LOVES YOU SO MUCH RIGHT NOW AND WANTS YOU BACK SO BAD... MY BRAIN IS THE ONLY THING KEEPING ME SAFE SO I DON'T GET HURT AGAIN! I believe when she is sleeping she is not listening to her brain and only her heart, I don't think she is getting comfortable she just lets her guard down. Also she is very sweet in the mornings before she has time to stew in all the negative feelings she has towards me during the day (or talk to her affair and divorce loving friend).

I think it is clear that my plan A is working and I just need to keep going.

\

RCX, you have a great opportunity to turn this around if you will use it. Just stopping criticizing her will not change your marriage much, though. What are you supposed to do if you have a complaint? Suck it up? That will eventually erode your love for her and create enormous resentment. A better solution is to learn how to handle complaints in a constructive positive way that complements your marriage. That is what the Marriage Builders program does. It teaches you both to complain in a productive way.

The other issue I see here is that she does not believe your changes because there is really no plan here. Having no plan is a plan to fail. I would strongly suggest you consider counseling with one of the Harleys or going through the MB program. My H and I did the latter, but since your wife needs to be SOLD on the idea of saving your marriage, you really need the help of the Harleys. If you can swing a few sessions, [$200] I predict that would make a big difference.

Yes I agree the way i see it is my homework is to:

1. Relax and enjoy life more (stop being so negative)
2. Think about things before I say them (is this criticism constructive or just nit picking)
3. Help her more around the house
4. Just listen to her (don't analyze or correct everything)

Her homework is:

1. Learn to deal with conflict in the marriage (including criticism)
2. Develop a backbone to tell me when she is unhappy
3. Learn and respect boundaries in a relationship (everyone likes it when someone else briefly flirts with them but it should end at that)
4. Communicate better (this is for both of us)

My homework has already started, we will need some help in approaching her homework. She is totally unreceptive to any sort of counseling right now, I hope after a few more weeks of plan A she will come around after she sees how devoted I am to her and our marriage. But for now the only thing I can see is to nurse our relationship back to relative health on my own. She is coming around and showing positive signs but I will need a lot of help knowing when it is the right time to start re-hab on our relationship, how to help her understand that it is our problem and will take our solution not mine or hers.

That plan is unlikely to turn things around because she is not motivated to engage in your marriage. My suggestion is to get counseling with the Harleys and have Steve Harley sell her on the idea saving your marriage. Motivation is your problem and he can be very persuasive.

You can counsel the first time with him alone and he will tell you how to get her on the phone. He doesn't counsel couples together anyway so you don't need her there. He will ask you to ask her to talk to him so he can get her perspective.

you don't need alot of counseling, you need just enough to motivate her and you are unlikely to do that on your own since she is alienated from you.

Sorry, but I have to say this is spoken like a true victim of marriage counseling.
The statistics on marriage counselors is that they are so bad they ruin marriages that they don't even know about. Something like 112% failure rate.

I jest. but it's not that much of an exaggeration.

In seriousness, I had issues with AO's for years and years. Anger management classes, counseling, praying, reading. It all added up to next to nothing until I read Dr. Harley's Lovebusters and started looking at my Behavior from a relationship and marriage (the MB marriage) way.

Apply the book to your situation and see if you don't look at it differently. DJ's, AO's, SD's. These might be areas of focus based on what you've said above.

opt

MelodyLane,

I will contact the Harleys on Monday and see what they recommend.

Optimism,

All of my homework is related to her LBs or ENs but in language I can understand. A huge LB for her is negativity, I am negative because I am so tightly wound, when I relax I am not negative and she likes to be around me. Another LB for her is criticism (DJ), of course we all need to take some criticism but I believe I give too much criticism and in the wrong tone. I also do not give enough positive reinforcement which is one of her ENs. So this is a two for one change. Help around the house is "domestic support", just listen means stop DJs and just have a conversation (another two for one)... so I think all of my homework is related to our marriage, eliminating LBs and meeting her ENs I just may not be spelling it out correctly.

When I am meeting all of her ENs SF is usually met with ease. Most of her homework is related to my EN of honesty & openness and family commitment. I know I will need help in getting her to understand the connection.

As far as I understand, she is still in an affair(?). If this is so, you need to kill it first, otherwise all the homework will be in vain.

This "I love you but I will divorce you" nonsense points strongly towards the affair. Maybe it was thrown to keep you distracted as long as she will be free and her true intentions revealed.


I think she was waiting you to stop her to bullshitting you. But you didn't - hence she still thinks that she can't respect (love) you.

Look, I wasn't the greatest husband either. I was addicted to computer games, sometimes quite lazy, independent behaviour etc etc. But the turning point for our marriage was the moment when I finally understood that my wifes affairs have nothing to do with me and I stood up for my self.

RCX, I admit I tend to hold "marriage" counselors in very low esteem. So, I should have prefaced my statement with that disclosure.
I really like that you have translated the information/advice to the MB approach. I just think it's more effective that way. I think it's easier to see how important it is to really adopt different behaviors for real and for ever, if we want to have healthy and happy relationships. So many times the same advice tends to lead to temporary changes (at least it did with me); but once I heard some of the same things, in context of MB principles and philosophies as a whole, the effect was more powerful.

I would only mention that I believe you are right that we all need to be able to take some criticism. However, I believe I've heard Dr. Harley say that we simply cannot be criticizing our spouses. That's where POJA comes in. It's where Selfish Demands turn into respectful requests. --Just trying to give you the MB slant on a comment made above.

I hope the rest of your weekend went well. Did you get any UA time in? Was your wife receptive at all to some LB deposits?
Have you read an article here on "friends and enemies of good conversation"? That would be very beneficial to you in your quest to increase the effectiveness of your communication with your wife, I believe.

opt

I agree with this BTW. But Recon, if RCX is in Plan A wouldn't the "homework" efforts still be important to maintain? IOW, I don't believe the homework effort (or trying to eliminate LB's, trying to be the best husband possible) are ever in Vain. They may not net immediate results, but are still important for inherent reasons. I also think at the very least he has her questioning her own waywardness.

Plan A, and snoop like crazy, no?

opt

Still snooping like crazy but as far as I can tell there was/is no affair just some flirting. It was IB and disrespectful to me but nothing beyond immature flirting. It didn't go anywhere as the OM was not interested in her. I'm keeping a close eye on her but so far nothing else.

She is not acting like there is anyone in particular to replace me, its more like she is just excited at the thought of being taken out on dates and wined and dined... like she just wants that new relationship smell back. She wants someone, anyone new. And its the same way with everything, she is excited about moving to a new house and having new neighbors... like she is just bored. Somehow she has the idea that divorce will be easy and fun. I have told her that I want the same thing (going on dates with her and changing our lives) and we could do it together but she says no its too late, I'm not risking it any more. You will be great for a month or two but then go back to your old self again.

As I mentioned we have had a rough time in our marriage, it got better then worse, then better then worse. It wasn't until a few weeks ago that I finally "got it". I have been a completely different person since then but she doesn't believe it and thinks all the changes will return to the old me soon. This weekend I told her how our "good" marriage counselor (the one who used methods similar to MB) commented on how I "finally got it" and seemed like a "completely different person". She teared up and looked lovingly into my eyes, but then pulled back and said she still didn't believe me.

I'm confident my "plan a" is working with her but its almost like she is using "plan b" on me at the same time.

I think you are right, optimism. Plan A it is.

But this


is not exactly plan A. Especially item 4. If she says that all is RCX-s fault - should he listen and nod?

Mr_Recon6mo,

My "homework" is all about eliminating her LBs and meeting her ENs but in my words. Just listen does not mean be a door mat for when she wants to attack me (she rarely attacks me anyway), it means just listen to the story she is telling... not the words she is saying. If she is talking about how she wants to go on a vacation just hear that she wants to spend some alone time with me to relax and get closer... not reply with "we don't have time for a vacation now... "do you know how crowed the resorts are this time of year"... "I'm too busy at work to go on vacation"... etc. Instead I should just say something like "I'd like that, lets plan something together".

RCX,
I'm short on time but I just wanted to say your above post is a very good example of the "friends and enemies of good conversation" -- it appears you are familiar with the concepts so that is very good. I'm encouraged by that and hope you can continue to consistently stay in Plan A for now.
I think you said you might write e-mail to the Harleys and listen to the show. I still think that would be a very wise idea, hopefully they will talk to you on the phone; then if you were to play the interview for your wife I believe that would have some positive influence over her waywardness.

Your wife unfortunately reminds me a lot of my ex. I was able to kill an affair of hers for the most part, but she got that taste in her mouth and continued to act like a teenager in heat, wanting go out, having male friends, drinking- it turned out to be more than I could bear. I hope you have more strength & patience & resolve than I did. I admit I had little motivation as the reality is that there were also other factors at play, but I can see how the plans (like more plan a and then plan b) might have worked if I had stuck with them. So, that's just experienced "advice" for you.

In my experience on this board (and I admit I'm obviously no expert -- I consider myself more comfortable with the BASIC concepts, not so much the infidelity stuff), there is a certain amount of concern that we betrayeds don't become doomats in our Plan A. It's a fine line and comes down to boundaries and making it clear to the wayward what we will tolerate. I've brought that up with you before. It's not a lovebuster to protect yourself, your marriage, your children, or your wife. I think you understand that. Others here may try to reinforce that and that's good because it certainly bears repeating.

opt

So as I mentioned earlier, on Sunday I had told her that I had gone back to our old MC for advice. I told her how our MC had seen big changes in me and was quite impressed. My wife blew it off and said I was lying, I asked her if she would go with me to a session this week and she said no.

Well yesterday she called and said if I still wanted to go to see the MC she would go with me. I asked why she wanted to go and said if it was just to appease me to not do it. She said she had some doubt that a divorce was the right thing to do and she wanted to see if the counselor really thought my changes were real. I was elated and scheduled an appointment... well sometime between 10am when she called me and 3pm when our appt. was her mindset had completely changed and there was no other option besides divorce. The session did not go well, she was unwilling believe that I could change this much (the therapist supported me and told her how I really did understand my role in our cycle). She refused to see her role in our cycle and she blamed me for every problem in our marriage. The counselor asked her if she thought she was perfect and didn't have any role in any of the problems in our marriage. Her response was "well no one at work ever has a problem with me so no I don't see how I could be the problem".

After the session I talked with the therapist for a bit, she didn't know what to think. She only said "she is not thinking clearly or making any sense", but also said she was not acting the way she would if she were involved in an affair. I agreed and said it seems like she is at a cross roads where she cant decide if she wants her real life with me or a fantasy life without me. The therapist thought and said maybe... "but clearly she is delusional of what a divorce is like"

My wife is a woman who can be the kindest sweetest most loving woman I have ever met, and the next day she can be a cold heartless, soul-less robot. I'm not sure what to think anymore. She is set to file again today, she did't go through with it last Friday, and yesterday she had considerable doubt in her mind. I know that deep down she does not want to get divorced, but I think she is so tangled in her thoughts and feelings she doesn't know which way is up. If she does file today I think I will just keep up what I am doing but quietly prepare for war. The bigger question is what do I do if she does not file today, what if she stalls again?

You need to expose, my friend.

- you are wasting your time and money in counseling while her affair is still on.

- her affair is on. Her fluctuating between divorce (read: OM) and you is a result of an ongoing affair. Her foggy mind thinks that there is a future with OM, at the same time she knows that she is a married woman and shouldn't pursue other men and that she should stay married to you. Plus all the benefits that come with the marriage. Blaming you all the time is just gaslighting. I know it, I used the same weapons against my husband.

- exposing her affair would be the first step towards defogging. She needs a reality check and you cannot talk sense to her yourself nor cannot any MC you are using. Your only priority right now should be to expose the affair. If you are worried about losing your wife because of expose think this - you have already lost her, to OM and affairland, this is not the woman you married nor is she one you would want to continue to be married anyway.

- OM workplace (HR, boss) and family, WW's family and friends, your mutual friends - find the contacts and expose it. You do not know who will or will not support you and exposure is not about support but revealing important information, because affairs thrive in secrecy! This affair is far less likely to continue when everyone knows about it.

- do you have Surviving an Affair by Dr Harley?

- Read about Exposure 101
- How to PLan A properly during the time, read this: Carrot and Stick of Plan A

I will bump them up for you.

Recon, I'm glad you're involved here because I'm at a loss on what to tell rcx about the exposure part. I believe you are right, but I think he has little if any evidence to expose. The original OM is out of the picture supposedly (convincingly at least). I do believe there is someone or many at work who are, at the very least, a cheering section for Mrs. RCX, but that's a difficult thing to expose, no? See, I had the same damned problem. My ex was wayward with the neighbor. Once that was over it was this "friend" and that "friend" - all males. I couldn't tolerate another male "friend" because of the growing track record, but how do you "expose" (to a bunch of normal idiots in real life) that your wife has a "friend" that she smokes with every morning? That was one of my failures and I hope RCX can avoid it. Divorce sucks.
...
It's a puzzle to me and I hope someone can help RCX better than me.


RCX, I picked out a couple of lines that jumped out at me yesterday but I haven't had a chance to post until now.


This indicates, as you have suspected, something is going on at work. Is it possible that the whole "he isn't into you" thing was a clever ruse to throw you off the trail? Waywards will go to quite the extreme to cover up their affairs. Have you ever visited your wife at work? Have you ever met any of these people?

Exactly my point about marriage counselors. They simply don't know the first thing about adultery. That she isn't making any sense is EXACTLY proof that she's in an affair. Good grief. There used to be a famous quotes of WS's thread. We should start a famous quotes of "marriage" counselors thread. Mine compared MB with DIONETICS of all things. Without having read a single word Dr. Harley had ever written. I'm telling you they just don't get infidelity.

She is the best chance you have at having a happy loving marriage, believe it or not. She's the mother of your child and that counts for a whole lot. You are also the best chance she has at being happy, although the fog has got her right now; Plan A is the best course of action to get that in her head, even if she just files it away in long term memory for now.


This is the fog. She's wayward. In one way or another, she's wayward. She wants the best of both worlds as Recon6 is saying above and Scotty stated a few days ago. She wants the security you offer and she wants to be party girl with her work friend(s).


She could continue to go back and forth a hundred times. You can not control her, rcx. You can't control her actions. You can lead by example, and gently persuade, but if she decides to file, then she files. Divorce takes a long time. You can stall it. You still have time even within the filing date and even the first court date to keep your plan A going and possibly even Plan B. She may even decide to move out at some point (a built in Plan B opportunity for you). But take one day at a time.

But none of that changes the fact that you are in a quest to be the best RCX you can be and to do everything you can to save the marriage for you and your daughter and for your wife who currently seems to be away on vacation. Be the pillar of strength and conviction. Know you're doing the right thing for the right reasons. Let her crash and burn with her loser friends and poor stupid teenage choices. With patience and perseverance and strength, you will win this marathon. You're on the good side of this and you will win. You're daughter is watching.

opt

What I would do immediately:

1. expose her previous affair. Past indiscressions are as important to reveal as current ones, so that BS's can keep a close eye on their WS's and actually know the truth about their past. This affair needs to be exposed to OMW, his family and WW's family and friends and mutual friends. OM may be out of the picture but this OM AND your WW are still a threat to other people's marriages and your WW needs to know that this is a no-go.

2. find out as much information about who is this scumbag your WS is texting. You claimed to see the texts. So? Number, name? Install a suitable keylogger for the computer and her phone, too. And VAR - voice activated recorder - in her car.

As soon as you have found out WHO the person is, you should expose it to the same range of people: OMW, family, your WW family and your mutual friends.

Do you have children? They also need to know: how to tell children is covered also under Exposure 101 thread.

3. At the same time don't forget Plan A (read the thread link I posted) and do not reveal your plans to WW.

You need to show them scums that this is not the way to treat you and your marriage and there will be consequences.

My H did an excellent exposure. He said to me first that I was free to do whatever I wished, and that he will divorce me. The next minute I had a furious OM on the chat who said: wtf, your H just sent an e-mail to my wife! My life is ruined thanks to him! And now he is not man enough to pick up his phone!

My next thought was - look, who's whining here... and who ruined who's life, and who are you to say who is man enough..

The exposure did the trick to reveal OM in his true colours and also did the trick to show ME who is the MAN here!

So a new twist to the story, I thought she only had to fill out a simple piece of paper last Friday to file for divorce but did not do that. What really happened is she filled out multiple pieces of paper at the lawyers office and brought one home to complete. She actually did start the divorce process on Friday and finalized the application yesterday so she is for real.

I have never stopped snooping and have not found anything since the original texts, which were more stupid than inappropriate. The other man was not interested in her at all. I see no signs of anything going on with anyone else. She is always available to talk during the day, and she is on a very rigid schedule. Like I said I will keep snooping but so far nothing else. I know you all think I am being naive but I promise you I am one of the most skeptical people you will ever meet and my wife is also one of the worst liars I have ever met.

The fog she is in is more of a rage against me not like the fog of being in lust (like the EA she had a few years ago). She seems to think that I could have been a good person all along but held out until she filed for divorce. She doesn't seem to understand that it's challenging moments in life that make people develop into themselves. Not that I was a terrible husband, I just used a few most powerful LBs against her while not meeting her most ENs for a period of time.

Until I find something new I will just continue with plan A and hope for the best. I truly believe when her rage wears off she will stop to look around and see what she is doing. Right now her walls are built up so high that she can not see what is in front of her.

How exactly do you snoop? Do you have a constant access to his phone activity, internet activity? VAR in her car?

rcx,
naivity (?sp) has nothing to do with it. It's experience. People come here all the time with similar stories swearing up and down their spouses aren't in affairs, only to find at a later date that they were being gaslighted to the max. We're just trying to help you cover all the angles, and in this case the most destructive one (and most likely just given the SYMptoms).

Do you have a VAR in her car?

In the meantime. suppose you're right and it's just a case of she's really sick of you. okay fine. she filed. now you continue to plan A. You still don't have to participate in her little scheme to destroy your marriage and your family. You can keep trying. The dates will come and go. She started the process and she can end it any time. Don't panic. Keep up your game plan.

(and keep getting snooping).

opt

I have VAR in her car, keylogger on computer and constant access to her phone and records. Only thing I can not access is her work laptop and email but the security is so tight on that she would not be stupid enough to risk her career using them to carry out the affair. People have been fired for that exact thing.

That is my plan, I'm not going to agree to her demands in divorce, I will not waive the 6mo. "cooling off" period and will continue to be the best person in her world.

Exacty. People risk their careers and get fired for that. Your WW wouldn't be any different. Here's your task - find the way to put a keylogger to her work laptop. Does she bring it home with her? Does she work over remote access at home?

RCX-

My FWW and I are in recovery now and have used marriage builders as our guide step by step. I have read your thread and you are doing a great job to turn the tide.

However, I believe you have missed a critical piece to the puzzle (as I did at first after discovering my FWW affair).

Attraction and Respect.

I too, was guilty of poor past behavior (as many of us BS's are). If in your case the actual behavior was the real cause of her problems, wouldn't she be thrilled to have the man she always wanted and be willing to work on the marriage? Logic would tell you.. Yes. Prblem was, my behavior caused her to lose RESPECT for me and her attraction dropped to the floor.

However it is my belief that your situation is very similar to where mine was over a year ago. Your W may or may not be in communication with another person. What is clear is that her attraction level for you is low. Women follow their attraction. It comes in many forms. Respect, eliminating LB's on and on can improve this. Bascially, Dr. Harley's teachings.

What turned the tide for me was when I started focusing on ME, becoming stronger as a person. Happy all the time (even when I didn't feel it inside), didn't discuss our 'future' together, removed expectations and so on.

Once I started having standards for HER to live up to (even though at that time she still was undecided on what she wanted), started acting very self-confident, happy, go-lucky, she knew that with or without her, I was going to have a great life.

She began to see what she stood to lose. This is what you want.

Basically, I became the person she met years ago and the result was she fell madly back in love with me! Now we have FS at least 5 times a week, with her initiating it.

Her ATTRACTION level has skyrocketed for me. By using MB principles and also focusing on myself, we on a strong road to recovery.

Food for thought.

One additional point is that I also dropped ALL NEEDINESS in her presence. The more needy I was, the less she wanted to do with me.

When it became clear that I wasn't going to cling to her and act needy, this was a factor in her attraction growing for me.

neediness = attraction killer

20YearHistory,

I completely agree and this is exactly what I have begun this last week. I have been going out with friends, teasing (flirting) with her and when she is down or angry or grumpy I just smile at her and say something like "how can you be sad, look at how wonderful it is outside... I'm going for a run". This is another reason I think she is so angry, because I'm smiling in the face of tragedy. Another thing that makes her attracted to me is when I compliment her or someone else in public. Or displays of manly compassion, she loves that and for some reason lately my daughter's actions have allowed me show these acts of compassion like crazy over the last few weeks.

She was attracted to me when we first met because she said I had an "edge" and didn't back down from anything. I have not backed down from anything yet including her selfish demands in divorce. I was calling her a few times a day to "see how she was feeling today" to show how I cared for her but she told me to stop so I did. Now she is contacting me a few times a day to tell me simple things that could wait till later.

She may or may not be in contact with another man, if she is the relationship is SO new that it means nothing at this point (of course it could build steam quickly). However as of now I have no evidence of any other contact with anyone. I can see that she still loves me and still wants me by her actions. She is just so afraid of getting close to me and getting hurt again.

What concerns me, is that her first affair was never exposed. Does anybody in your family knows about what you were dealing with 2 yrs ago? Do you have children and do they know?

The second thing that concerns me is this:



I just do not believe it. This change in her attitude towards you is a result of something from outside. I would be glad of course, if it weren't, really, but this is just too common.

I will ask again - can you get her work laptop somehow and does she use remote access from home sometimes? I would also pay couple of surprise visits to her work place, ask her to lunch or coffee, ask her to introduce you to people, show you around or something, and watch her reactions closely. If that were a workplace affair then she'd be freaked out.

RCX,
I know we've given you a lot to think about. And I know it probably seems real urgent, and you just want this all to go away, but it does take time. You seem to have a great game-plan and a very good approach. I know you have the strength and resolve to maintain your path, and that's exactly what she needs (even though she won't admit it or even respond to it right now). You are the rock she will be looking for when and if she ever pulls her head out.

Have you been listening to the MB Radio show at all? I still say it gives such a different perspective on all this, I believe it's invaluable. We all tend to have our views which are more or less accurate I think, but when you hear Dr. Harley's tone of voice calmly explaining things, it just helps solidify what you've read. Tone never comes accross great in a post, email, or other means like actual voice of the author of this stuff.

Anyway, the above: I absolutely LOVE the idea by Recon6. She has given you a great tool. You will know everything you need to know just by showing up there. I also believe her reaction will give you something to "expose". Even if all you have is a lot of defensiveness and unease, it's something to go to the ones who support your marriage with: "I need your help. I think something is going on with Mrs. R. She acted very strangely when I went to see her at work. I think there might be something going on with someone there. Would you please talk to her and use your influence? She is not listening to me, ever since the texts I found with OM. This is too much like the EA she had before. I can't go through that again, we really need your help to save this marriage. "

I did my exposure very poorly. I hope you can avoid the same mis-step. You have an advantage I did not have - the Exposure 101 thread. Take some time to familiarize yourself with the concept now, in case you have to use it. That's my seasoned advice.

opt

I just wanted to add that I was very encouraged by this, RCX. I'm glad you're not playing into her desire to have the fantasy divorce (they ALL want it). I believe it's okay to let her know the truth in clear terms that you are in the marriage to stay and that you will not cooperate with any plans to destroy what you've built together, however broken it is or however rocky it has been. It's at least something.

[as an aside. I don't know if you know my situation but I have been dating a lovely woman for about 15 months. She is MB all the way and we use POJA, and talk about EN's and have all that going on. But, I have to tell you, we were sitting on the couch together the other night (we NEVER watch tv). Just talking about stuff and it occurred to me that no matter how good our relationship is there are 20 years of our adult lives that we did NOT share together. No looking back and saying "remember when we went to visit grandma in 1998? No "remember when DD was 5 and she said (whatever)?" These are things that the waywards never figure on. They just throw the whole thing away. It's sad]

Anyway, if you read threads here you'll see people that do risk their careers for their affairs. It happens a lot. Careers, families, integrity, community standing, religeous convictions, fortunes. the whole ball of wax. Remember, wawardness it a DRUG and activates the same brain chemistry as HEROIN.

opt

She works for a very large company, nothing is able to be installed or deleted on her laptop without admin rights. Any communication she does through her laptop is filtered by company firewall (emails, ims...etc)

No visitors are allowed past the lobby conference rooms so no chance to meet any of her co-workers. She never goes out with them after work so no chance for me to meet them there.

My family all knows about her original fling but not hers, I doubt they would object to it anyway as their baby girl can do no wrong. I call it a fling because It really could not be called an affair as the conversation was only flirty, nothing of depth or meaning. It was stupid, inappropriate, childish, immature, insulting, disgusting but she never opened up to the guy or confided in him. It was only surface level conversation and compliments to each other. She ended her conversations with OM on her own once I returned home. (I was out of the country on business for 6 weeks when she had the original fling) Once I was back home and fulfilling her needs she came back on her own, she knows she has a good husband.

I think her last flirting episode was similar, she was lonely and wanted someone to compliment her so she flirted with a guy. He was nice to her and talked with her and made her feel valued so she flirted again, he was not so receptive this time and told her he was not interested in her. At the same time I started paying attention to her again and making her feel valued so she has no need to flirt now. Of course I will keep a clear eye on her and I may contact her corporate IT group and ask them to be on the lookout.

My wife is an incredibly impatient woman, when she makes up her mind she will achieve whatever she wants no matter what the cost. Instead of shoot first aim later she is more like:

1. Shoot
2. Make sure something/anything got shot
3. Check the range for risk of collateral damage
4. Aim
5. Decide if you really wanted to shoot anything in the first place

The way she is going about this is that she was so mad at me that the only way she could be happy was to get a divorce. She was so certain that divorce is what she wanted so she dove in head first without thinking it through. I can see that she is having second thoughts about a lot of it especially every morning. She could have another man at work but I really doubt it, she does have a divorce cheerleader... but I also think it could have to do with the way she thinks. She is only focused on how divorce is the only answer to her happiness and she is not looking around at any other options or who will get hurt in the process.

She is and has always been a very selfish, shallow, self centered, immature woman. I always thought she would grow out of it, and she has a bit but is still very immature for her age and professional status (both therapists have told me this). Can marriage builders help her with these issues as well? Don't get me wrong I was a jerk in the past but I have grown leaps and bounds in the past few years (friends family and colleges have all noticed).

I think that the only "issue" she seems to have is that she has very low boundaries around opposite sex and thus the entitlement of flirting. Her flirting is not a result of you paying little attention to her but her low boundaries. Also, since there were no consequences to her previous affair, she is even more entitled.

If I were you I would call a spade ... a spade. This "fling" was an affair, emotional affair and this has damaged your marriage. Yes, physical would have been worse and you wouldn't perhaps call it a fling then, but emotional attachment to someone can be as disastrous as PA.

I'm almost certain that there is OM involved in your WW's life. No woman would pursue a divorce just like that, these are just rationalisations but no real reasons.


Now, IF you are serious about Plan A, this is something you need to learn - this is disrespectful and part of the Plan A is to stop lovebusting behaviours. Even if your WW is not here to read, you have to learn how to not disrespect her behind her back and to other people. It is OK to express how this all makes you feel, but it is a DJ to say something what you just did.

Snoop more and find a way to pay her a visit, you can show to the lobby, too, this has smaller effect, but it still might. Think harder and find a way to show up unexpectedly and some place she is usually alone.

Does she never work from home?

Mrs_Recon6mo

Her low boundaries have always been a concern of mine, how can I express this to her without sounding too controlling? Also I agree my rant was a DJ, sorry.

Any of you former waywards, would you have gone through with the divorce if you had not been exposed?

If she wants to stay married to you she should know what are your requirements, too. If you have trouble expressing them face to face without LB-ing then you should just write them down. To get the idea of extraordinary precautions, click the thread of EPs Here.

Does she have a facebook page, any male liking her here, twitter account, any male twitting to her? Have you searched for another phone? How much do you actually know about her daily schedule and activities?

No new phones, no abnormal FB activity (i monitor it closely) no twitter, she is really not very tech savvy, can't even download an app on her own.

Her schedule is very standard, plus if I call her at any random time she always answers and has a normal conversation.

When you were wayward did you want a divorce? would you have gone through with it or you wanted the best of both worlds?

I wanted my cake and eat it too No divorce.

Also was your A an EA or PA, if PA how long did it take to turn physical?

RCX, not sure waht you're driving at here, but if you're looking for justification NOT to expose, you wont find it on this board, I would venture to say. It is simply the most effective way to get a wayward out of the fog. Possibly the ONLY way as they tend to go from one to another until they realize that the "whole world" is watching their every move. Dr. Harley advocates exposure. In fact he states that if we all thought we were being watched all the time the world would be a much better place (I'm paraphrasing obviously).

Also, the time schedule for EA to PA is probably weeks to years. It is true that the entrenched PA can be harder to break. But the EA has wreaked havoc on marriages. I've seen in 1st and 2nd hand.

It will take time. I agree with all the encouragement to snoop. Remember too that they eventually screw up one way or another if they're cheating. They get sloppy.

I say keep up the plan A.
I believe in MB -- even with a "selfish" wife.
One thing at a time, though....

Opt

Definitely not looking for justification to not expose, I just don't have any evidence worth exposing yet. I have some suspicion and will keep snooping as hard as possible but still coming up with nothing.

I was merely asking the question because it seems that usually waywards want to stay married, they want the security of marriage and the lust and excitement of an affair. My wife wants a divorce more than anything right now so she will not be able to double dip. Although she is asking for everything in the divorce... so in her mind she will have all of the spoils of marriage with none of the liabilities. Of course she will not get that!

I asked about the timeline of an affair because in most cases it seems that the betrayed spouse never finds out about the affair until it is well established. The texts I found were from last week and the relationship was in the infancy state before it was extinguished. If she is currently looking to build another relationship is't it much harder for her since I am currently meeting her needs with my plan A? Wont it be more difficult for her to justify or desire a new relationship when she is getting all she needs at home?

She has shown slow but steady improvement in her attitude towards me and us, I see more and more signs that she really wants to get close to me again but she says she is just so afraid to get hurt again. This morning she woke up and told me she was sorry for how she has been acting lately and thanked me for helping out so much and just being a good guy and being nice to her. I told her I was not trying to be nice to her I was just doing what a good person does. She seemed to be taken back by that and when she left for work she came over to my side of the bed to give me a hug goodbye, once she realized what she was doing she quickly got up and left. She does this quite often, she forgets herself and does something sweet, when she realizes what she has done she does something mean.

RCX, I was a serial cheater, my affairs were all physical and it took only very little for them to become such. My BH has been through a lot of sh$t because of this. I know what I'm capable of and I am doing everything I can to keep my last chance with him. But back to you!



It might but WWs are very irrational, so do not try to make sense in their behaviour.

I agree with optimism - you should snoop as hard as you can and during that time Plan A. I understand that there is little to expose yet. This EA might never turn physical although they almost always do sooner or later. EA is as devastating as PA, so do not wait for that. Have you confronted your WW about the text you found last week?

Have you really read Plan A thread I posted you because this is not just being nice and understanding there is a carrot part and the stick part in this plan. Please read it very carefully, print it out and plan your steps, because I see several signs there that your WW is in the middle of an affair. It doesn't really matter whether it is only in the beginning or some place else.

Your WW should also know that she is not going to get the divorce from you by any means. That you would like to stay married to her and make it work. This should be stated calmly but clearly. Have you told her that?

Again, I'm not that good with the infidelity stuff, but I think you have her head spinning. That you are implementing positive changes for YOU is great for yourself and your daughter, and ultimately for your wife if she chooses to continue to be your wife.

I wanted to elaborate on something I said earlier in response to your question about MB. (remember, I'm a nuts and bolts guy). What you need to be in love with your wife is for her to meet your EN's and not lobebust. Period. She can be as selfish and immature as she wants as long as she can still do those things. You married her and presumably you were in love with her at some point (trying to evaluate that now is difficult because we betrayds have a way of revising history also). "I thought she would change" is a frightening notion, but people do mature and they do grow up; especially if they are allowed to do so by running into self-made adversity. You can help by holdign her accountable for her actions and protecting your boundaries. [I did a good job of allowing my wife to hold onto her neuroses by not having boundaries and not being clear with her on what "marriage" meant to me -- I didn't know the first thing about boundaries or MB at the time, obviously.)

I still recommend listening to the radio show. I just feel that Dr. Harley gives a perspective there that you can't get here, or from reading the material. As the betrayed, you tend to have a sense of urgency and you just want the pain to stop. Immediately. I understand the need for action, but I think we often rush things durign this phase of the recovery (I know I did) without having a clear understanding of the concepts or how they affect our relationships. In Dr. Harley's voice, I rarely hear that urgency. Importance and control yes, but not the same urgency. Be calm, be patient, be strong...and prevail. That's what I hear.

opt

Excellent post optimism. It s hard to be patient.

Thanks again for all the support, this experience has been life altering for me. So far I think I have learned this:
1. The meaning of life (for me at least) is to be involved in the people I love lives every day and to be an asset to them not a liability
2. Patience (this one i'm still learning)
3. Selflessness (also still refining this one)

The only chance she has to conduct an affair is on her company laptop, I'm considering calling her company IT/Ethics group and asking them to investigate any illegitimate activity... what are your thoughts?

In the mean time, patience and Plan A.

What is your evidence that you do have?
So are you saying you're 100% sure there is no affair right now?
You couldn't expose because you don't have enough evidence? What about the two month EA she had with her exbf? Why can't you expose that?

If you're trying to figure out how WW think you may make yourself crazy because they aren't rational people.

If your WW is still talking about D most likely she is in an affair. Most WW don't leave unless they have OM lined up.
Carrot and Stick of Plan A

Right now the only evidence I had was some texting she did with another guy. She flirted with him, he was nice to her, she flirted again he said he was not interested in her... end of texting.

I'm not 100% sure there is no affair but as much snooping as I can do I have not found any more evidence. I'm considering contacting her company ethics department and ask them to confirm any communication with her company laptop.

The two month EA with her EX BF was more than 2 years ago and it was exposed

My wife has her own income and could provide quite well for herself so she is not dependent on another man.

Another thing, I was served the divorce papers today and in discussion with the lawyer I made mention that I still hoped to work things out. He mentioned this to her and she flipped her lid, she called me and was incredibly rude and bitchy condescending and insulting. These are the times when I question if she really deserves me. I'm sure some of these comments are DJs but it is just so demoralizing.

I am a human, I have made mistakes, I have learned from my mistakes, I'm a better person for having made mistakes. She has commented multiple times that she absolutely can not understand how she could negatively effect our marriage. She states "I don't understand how he could have any problem with me, because no one at work ever has a problem with me".

End of venting

To you or to the lawyer, RCX?
Remember, you are threatening her little fantasy world. You have to be ready for her to "flip out." It's normal behavior for someone who does not currently have a LONG TERM approach to marriage.

She does deserve you. She also deserves to have a man who is not willing to give up on a dream of having a loving caring wonderful family. She also deserves to have the discomfort of not getting whaqt she wants at the expense of others includign her own daughter.
I hesitate to offer advice about how to handle the "exposure" or "investigation" of her work situation with the aide of the IT guys, but this would be a GREAT quote to use as an opening with them.
opt

I have also been considering talking with her parents and apologizing to them for the way I have treated her in the past. I would explain that I never physically hurt her but I also did not support her as a good husband should. How this whole process has shaken me to my core, and now I see my mistakes and have corrected my behavior. I would not ask them for anything but their forgiveness, if they offer their support in trying to repair our marriage I would accept it.

I would really like to deliver this message in person however they live ~3hrs away.

what do you think

Also the quote about how no one at work has any problem with her is her saying that I shouldn't have any complaint about our marriage (her performance as a wife) since her boss doesn't have any complaint about her as an employee. She doesn't see the difference between a marital relationship or a business relationship.

RCX, I think contacting the IT/ethics department is a great idea. But, since you do not know who is her sweetheart from work, it might be one of them, so it is 50/50 chance to get anything from them. But it definitely is worth of try.


To whom exactly?

Do not sign the papers. Her boss is not her husband and there is actually no point in engaging yourself in this argument. State very calmly that you are interested in making your marriage work and not to divorce and you won't do the opposite.

What exactly does your daughter know about her mother's past affair and now this situation?

Steve Harley advised me to "Plan A" her parents, especially my MIL. I would make it a brief conversation if possible and then prove your intentions with actions in the next months. You could always start with "I don't want a D with your daughter, I want to be a better husband and SIL and Father to your Granddaughter than I have been in the past. Here are some of the changes I've been making..., but I don't expect you to believe my words, I intend to prove it to you over time if you'll be willing to work with me..."

I've heard Dr. Harley say that it's no wonder so many workplace affairs happen as we tend to act TOTALLY different to people we work with. It's really frustrating that your wife wont recognize this, since it seems so obvious. But people really don't get it. They just don't.

opt

Weekend Update:

Saturday was fine, spent the first half of the day cleaning. In the afternoon I took my daughter to have some daddy - daughter time, we met my sister and her family and all the kids played for the afternoon. When I arrived back home we put my daughter to bed and my wife said she wanted to talk. She told me she missed me this afternoon and was sad she could not come to be with my family and how much she will miss my side of the family. She was sweet and loving and sincere.

During the night my wife developed flu like symptoms, in the morning she could barely move. I took care of everything (shopping, cleaning, cooking, laundry and my daughter) while she just rested. I took care of my wife better than anyone else could have, she noticed and was very appreciative. At one point when I brought her a snack which was prepared exactly the way she likes it she looked lovingly into my eyes, grabbed my hands and told me thank you in a way I have never heard before. She was pulling me close and arching up like she wanted to kiss me?? The rest of the day was like we were back to normal, a loving married couple.

I'm not sure what to think of all of this, she hasn't wanted to talk about divorce in a few days and I have been making LB deposits like crazy!

Only new discovery from snooping was that her workout partner at the gym is a fairly white trash divorced woman about the same age as my wife. She put my wife in contact with her lawyer. I can imagine her telling my wife how much fun it is to go out on dates and meet new people. How divorced life is so great and you can have so much fun and freedom... never mind our daughter who is an innocent passenger in all of this. I hate that my wife surrounds herself with people of poor character.

Any words of advice?

RCX, any chance for you to spend this recreational time together?

According to Dr. Harley, there are 4 most important emotional needs: affection, sexual fulfilment, recreational companionship and conversation. Meeting these needs romantic love is created.

You should get rid of this divorce cheerleader, she probably has hooked your WW up with someone already. Try focus on spending all your leisure time together.

My wife's most important needs are:
- Admiration
- Non-sexual affection
- Domestic support
- Family commitment

The last two have been easy to meet in the last few weeks, the first two not so much. Sometimes she is OK with me touching her or being close to her so I can show her some affection, but other times she wants me to keep my space. This weekend was a good chance to give her the affection she needed in both how I took care of her (showing that I know what she needs to feel better and being a loving husband) and rubbing her back or feet when she felt bad (non sexual touch). I'm working on the admiration as this is the toughest one to work in without it seeming forced. By nature I am not a complimentary person, so this has a negative effect on her. I have explained that in my heart I constantly admire her but I just have trouble putting it into words, I told her from now on I will just speak from my heart.

Domestic support and family commitment do not create intimacy. Intimacy is created by spending Undivided Attention time 15-20 hrs a week meeting the needs of affection, SL, conversation and recreational companionship.

PLease read about Policy of Undivided Attention here.

Try to get her away from her workout partner. Now that she is being sick, it is a good time to turn this around and suggest workout time together.

I see your point, actually we have been spending a lot of time together going through old things cleaning out the house. It has spurred a lot of memories for both of us. We have been eating dinner as a family much more lately talking and laughing together. We have been talking about random things much more lately as well. Generally it is her who initiates the conversation and I just go with it, previously I would have corrected her at every turn or told her how her plan would not work....etc.

I have said I wanted to go to the gym with her but she just got mad and told me "I wanted you to come to the gym years ago and you wouldn't... now you want to". She does do some exercise at home, I have been joining her when does this and I can tell she enjoys it.

So actually we have been spending quite a bit of time lately having conversation, recreational companionship, and a bit of affection (for her) here and there. I will try to maximize these moments and work in some LB deposits during these times.

What did you say back to her when she said this? This a great opportunity to make LB deposits.

I told her that I didn't realize how much it meant to her for me to go with her. I think if I were to go with her now it would be a LB as she would feel that I was crowding her. For now I will find ways to work my way into her other activities, if we make it through this I will definitely join her gym.

Based on the information I have as of today I still think there is no one else in her life. I think she is having an affair with the idea of being single and free. She is in love with the idea of having simple easy relationships and creating sexual tension without the expectation or commitment to have sex. She want't to be chased and admired and have the butterflies you get when you first meet someone. She doesn't want to have to worry about meeting anyone else's needs. She wants to be free to build the house she wants and watch the shows she wants and go to bed any time she wants and not have to worry about anyone but herself.

What she is forgetting is how much I actually do around the house. How without my paycheck she will not be able to go clothes shopping when ever she wants. How she will not be able to go to Disney with our daughter every year. How she will have to pack lunches every day, how she will have to cook every night, how she have no free time.

I know plan B is designed to bring people to these realizations but right now our plan B will be finalization of our divorce.

This is exactly what she wants - privacy!!! The reason she got angry was exactly proving it. She is up to something with this workout partner, and I'm afraid you are loosing valuable time here to find your way into her other activities. You have to come between them, this is your right! You are doing exactly what she wants: doing your duties around the house and giving her privacy when she is without you. Joining her in gym should be your first way right now. Can you actually join her there unexpectedly? Do not worry about her anger, this is to be expected, it is temporary.

She is a freeloader. All WSs are. But be careful not to through that into her face when you feel like it. You are in Plan A.

Order this: Dr. Harley's book "Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders". There is a way to get her back.

You know, RCX, I think you've described the phase my ex was in for the moths prior to the divorce being final. It sounds exactly like her frame of mind after the first affair was broken up. Unfortunately, this "frame of mind" turned out to be more than I could stomach. It was almost worse than the affair for me because I could never really know what was going on. Finally it was too much for me when I came home from work early one day and she was at the other neighbor's (I called him OM#2) "having coffee." It was just simply too much for me. I told her I was being abused and that I always said I could endure anything in a marriage except abuse.

I am confident that you can get through to her before this nebulous but destructive mind-set does it's damage. You seem to have more resolve thanb I did, so I wish you luck.

opt

Recon, this is where I have trouble with some of the Plan A stuff. Joining the gym without talking to her is clearly in the realm of independent activity, a major lovebuster. My ex called me on it a couple times when I was in Plan A and I wasn't sure how to respond. But then there is no way to reason (or POJA) with a hormone infested wayward. Melody would probably say you don't reason with a druck, you just take their keys away.

The question is that does she secretly want him to show up, join, whatever; to be that strong, Protect the Marriage, Save-me-from-my-Animal-Urges husband? I've heard former waywards say this was exactly what they needed even though they might have railed against it while it was happening.

During my Plan A, I talked to the ex one day on the phone and she said she was in the grocery store. So I happended to be where I could stop in there. I found her and guess who she was with? "Friend"/OM#2. So, now I'm "following her around." ...They're all the same.

opt

I guess you could say something to the effect of
"I'd like to join the gym and start going with you to your workouts"
"Dr. Harley points out taht people often fall in love wsith their gym partners due to the endorphins and adrenaline and positive feelings associated with it. Since I love you so much I want you to be in love with me, so I'd like to see if he's right."
push comes to shove:
"I also find that you act differently twoard me when you return from the gym - it makes me feel that there is something going on there that I would like to know more about, because this is my marriage too and I feel I have the right to know what things are affecting my marriage."
--no DJ's there, right?

opt

Opt, I understand your concerns about lovebusting behaviours, showing up in a gym might fly his WW to the moon, but I wouldn't worry about that, really, this is typical WW anger and this comes and goes as the rest of her moodswings. I don't remember exactly how many times I said to my BH that "that's IT!!! NOW you RUINED IT!" but I said it a lot. Never changed a thing, actually.

I try to encourage RCX to find out WHAT is going on. Another possible solution is to send someone else who RCX trusts to see what is going on in the gym instead of himself. This has to be someone WW doesn't know, but who can spend some time close to her and this female friend and tape what they are talking about. This might work perfectly.

Recon,

I have already done this, the wife of my friend works out there too she said my wife is always with the other woman and OW's sister. They just complain about men and how they don't need them and would be better off alone. They all support each other saying how any man would be so happy to have any one of them and their husbands don't or didn't deserve them but no talk about any new men or dating cheating...etc. They just want to have a divorced wives club. Like I said, it seems as if she just wants to shed all responsibility of being an adult and go back to being 16 again.

Last night was a pleasant night and she was quite talkative. We had fairly intimate conversation for about an hour before she went to bed. She actually drove the conversation telling me stories about her childhood and how certain things still comfort her today, we talked about happy things in our marriage etc. Then during the night she ended up coming over to my side of the bed for most of the night.

Today she has been very pleasant texting me quite a few times just to make small talk.

Its so confusing...

Hang in there, it is hard, I understand, but Plan A is working, keep it up. Your next move should be to get her away from these witches and start spending ALL your leisure time together.

We will have a long weekend this week, I will try to plan some activities for us to be alone together. I know she wants to do some more spring cleaning so this would be a good opportunity for me. I will also try to sneak in an excuse to go shopping with her (she loves when I go shopping with her).

It seems as if she is teetering between withdrawal and conflict most of the time, although at some points it seems as if she forgets herself and is actually in intimacy (like this morning and on Sunday). I wonder if this is because her capacity for conflict is so small. She absolutely hates and avoids conflict at all costs so maybe the journey through the conflict state is very short??

I know I should just stop thinking and keep doing my plan A

I don't have much to add right now RCX. But I wanted to suppose for a second that there is indeed no actual OM in the flesh, so to speak.
In that case, I have high hopes for your plan A based on the past couple of posts. I know you can keep it up and remain consistent. Every time she texts YOU she's coming to you as a companion. Leisure time and sharing her thoughts with YOU an not another man/person/vampire.

I believe that given time and consistent behavior (on both of your parts, in the manners described above will eventually win out over negative immature, and illogical thinking in the typical lets-all-get-divorced club. I do believe that.

I wanted to ask if you ever pursued anything with the parents (sorry if I missed it), or if you have a plan.

I would love to see you encourage her to go shipping with you. Sneaking sounds to IB to me, in your situation (in mine too - I don't like surprises however innocent even in my dating relationship). Can I suggest doing some recon in the area? Does she need new shoes, blouses, jeans, hats, undies? Specifically state "I have a feeling you're due for a new pair of ________, I'd really like to go with you to pick some out." She might think it's insincere at first - that would be very much to be expected. Start planting a seed that you have realized how much you like and miss being with her and even if it is something you used to consider boring, you now don't consider it boring anymore, because you're with her and you always enjoy yourself when you're with her. ---make sense?---

opt

I am confident that I can continue my behavior but her's is very random. Yesterday she was caring and nice, today she is cold and snotty. Its times like this that I feel like I am being a doormat for her and loosing her respect. I will just remain calm and pleasant but firm and confident.

These times also makes me question if our marriage will ever work? Unless something drastic comes over her I can almost guarantee she would never agree to have extraordinary precautions in our marriage, as this would be too much of a burden on her. She is of the mindset that marriages are free and should take no work to maintain whatsoever. She has never acknowledged her role in the difficulties in our marriage and sticks to the "No one at work has any problem with me so why should you" defense. Through out this process I have asked her many times why she wants a divorce her most common response is "I don't want to have to worry about anyone but myself"

I know she has not really considered what it will mean to be divorced by the way she talks. Like this weekend when she got sick, she said "if this happens after the divorce you will have to come over and take care of us (her and my daughter)", her biggest concern is if she will be able to find a new house up to her standards within her price range. The way she talks about things and people, including family... everything is disposable to her. She said one reason she wants a divorce is because I don't respect her wishes to build a new house or have another baby. She wanted to have another child like 2 weeks after the last time she called a divorce lawyer!! She goes from boiling hot to absolute zero in a mater of seconds!

As of now we are still sleeping in the same bed, eating together and talking like normal. The only difference is that we don't kiss, hug or have sex anymore. Do you think my plan A will backfire because she is getting the idea that divorce will be the same as marriage except she doesn't have to care for me?

Last weekend she told me she missed me when I went to see my family without her. I am not sure if this was genuine or was she just being nice to me to cover up for feeling guilty about me looking at her texts? I have to travel for work for a few days next week, maybe this will be a little taste of plan B, maybe she will realize what I mean to her?

I am really in need of some advice/support today

The best way to sell the programme to her is to show her the benefits, how it works for you, she has to see what's it in there for her. You are doing well, this takes some time.

Have you talked to her about the divorce - that you do not want to divorce her but make it work? (However, MB is not a marriage at all costs, so you have to decide yourself if YOU want to be married to such a freeloader at the first place.)

Have you also told her what it would be like when you were not married anymore? Sort of given her the glimpse of her future reality?

Do you snoop openly? How does she know that you have seen her text messages? You should snoop so that she does not know, otherwise she knows where to outsmart you..

I have not shown her the MB program yet, any time we talk about how I want to salvage our marriage she gets irate and says "see you still don't respect what I want". She is so focused on finally "getting something she wants" or "getting her way" that its like she wants a divorce at all costs. I will have to be patient and wait for the right opportunity where she shows an opening to bring it up.

I may get my chance when we get the details of selling our house. I don't think she realizes how much of our equity will be eaten up by commission and taxes, this will kill her plans to build her new home. Its sad that the only reason she may give our marriage another shot is because it is financially beneficial to do so.

We have talked a bit about divorced life and she seems to think it will all be happy times. She will finally be free from the terrible monster of a husband that I am. I am considering asking a friend of hers who recently went through a divorce (her husband had been cheating for years) to talk to her about how much of a change it is and how she really wanted to work things out but her husband wouldn't come around. This woman is a very responsible person who I have a lot of respect for, not a divorce cheerleader. What are your thoughts?

I know that I should expect this to be a roller coaster of emotions for both of us. We will be taking one step back for every step forward for some time while we both test the waters. I suppose I should view her purposely keeping her distance from me as progress since she has to concisely make an effort to avoid getting close to me. Eventually her heart will win over her mind right?

She does not know how I snoop but I did tell her that she was talking about someone in her sleep (she actually was talking in her sleep but it was about my daughter). She said she just fantasizes about meeting a great man and spending her life with him. She has told me this before and that she has done this since she was a young girl... like a teenage romance movie where awkward nerd girl meets rebel boy and they fall in love.

This is a bunch of fog, RCX, and nothing new.

Lots of WSs think that everything will be great after divorce. She can find some other guy and have YOU on the side.

Of course she doesn't want to work on the marriage, that would interfere with her new single lifestyle...

So what do you recommend? I have not found anything of use snooping, the only thing I can't see is her work phone and computer. If she is in a relationship it is only a week or two old. Like I said it seems that she is having an affair with the idea of being single.

Maybe not having me around next week will give her a taste of single life and how "GREAT" it will be?

She is likely trolling for an affair if she is not in one already.

If you are going to be gone the odds are good that she will do it then.

Continue to snoop.

RCX, I discussed your situation with my DH and we are quite confident that she is having an affair or planning to have an affair with the help of her workout partners or someone from work.

It just doesn't make ANY sense to want a divorce out of the blue. This monster talk is just SOOO common wayward talk. She seems to be in such a thick fog that I wouldn't really count on her mind or heart to change back itself. She is getting her "shot" from someone or somewhere.

Does she carry her work phone with her? Try this - http://www.okaztle.com/2011/09/hack-or-crack-password-protected-memory.html. I found it on Google. Any help for such things you can actually find online.

Any way you can put the house under surveillance? I think you GPS her car so that's good. Is she planning to have your daughter watched by anyone while you're gone? A couple of nights gone is all she needs to get the real "freedom" she's been pining for. I have concerns.

opt

A few days is nothing to a real Plan B separation. It's more like a mini vacation where she can plan all sorts of debauchery and let the housework slide for a few days.
While you're gone you have to stay in Plan A. Call her a lot. Stay in her head. Disrupt any plans she may have. Leave notes around the house. --these are all suggestions made to me by steve harley himself when my wife went away for a couple of weeks during my plan A. Can you have trusted couples or friends "stop by" to make sure she's alright without out, offer to bring dinner or take them both out? Protect her from her own lewd temptations....
opt

This is all cake-eating behavior. They are amazingly selfish. "You can't just give me the divorce I want". It's unbelievable -- what about the MARRIAGE that YOU want?
I agree with others that she is a big-time freeloader at least right now. (Another book to read for you)_. But having read the book, I believe that people can go from one phase to another, and perhaps one day she can be a real life buyer. First she has to buy into the idea that you are the best thing that ever happened to her and if she gives it up she will NOT be happy. You will NOT be coming over and taking care of her. You will be taking care of someone else, yourself, and possibly someone who cares about you and would never trust you around your ex wife. Mine envisioned vacationing together, me her, my new wife and all the kids. ummmmmm, no.

I don't know if your marriage would "ever work". I think you are doing the right thing however to fight for it until your last drop of energy is spent doing so. AS I've said, no matter how happy you can be in another relationship, it will be nothing compared to that of a strong healthy relationship with the mother of your daughter, and someone with whom you share a real history.

Do you guys do your finances together? Does she have any understanding of what it takes to just go out and buy a new house and have another baby? That you dont just wave a wand and presto it appears? Have you talked about financial goals with her. She sounds half spoiled and half ignorant. Excuse me if I'm presumptuous here.

opt

So after my mini break down yesterday something strange happened when I got home. She was very loving and sat me down to talk and told me that she really appreciated all the changes I have made in the past few weeks. She told me she was sorry for the way she had been treating me and asked me if we could just sit and talk for a while. She explained that she would be happy in our marriage the way it is now except for my "grilling" her on some things. I explained how the only reason I was "grilling" her was because of the texts I found in her phone (the flirting that fizzled out a few weeks ago) She said she understood and told me again how sorry she was and how embarrassed she still is. She said that just like my actions have proven to her that I am trying to change, her actions over the next weeks will prove to me that she is an honest woman.

The discussion was very easy and sincere so I felt this would be a good opportunity to bring up MB and how it has changed me. She listened and said she would be interested in looking at it but said something like "I think we just have too much baggage together and need a fresh start". I explained to her that we both had baggage from each other but MB has helped me let it go and how I have learned to clear out my resentment for our past. I explained how we shouldn't think of it as fixing our marriage but tearing it down and re-building it correctly.

She then went on to say that she hated being around me and tries to avoid me as much as possible, when I touch her it hurts her and she doesn't think she will ever be able to get over this. I told her I knew she was lying because I can still see the love in her eyes. I told her how when she was sick she showed me love that I had not seen in years. She started crying and said I was right but she is just so afraid of getting hurt more. I told her in the past I didn't understand how my actions hurt her but MB has taught me how they affect her. I told her that we could have a great marriage, so much better than before but it will take work from both of us. We can do it together helping each other along the way, she said something like it shouldn't be that hard and I said "do you think divorce will be easier"?

I told her I was not asking for forgiveness or another shot or to call off the divorce, all I was asking for is to let me in a little bit so we can try to start over. She told me how she was so scared to let me in and how she has already shut down and doesn't love me any more. I told her I still knew she was lying and I gave her a hug, she hugged me back. I asked if we could just talk for a bit, she agreed. I told her the reason she doesn't feel love for me is because she has not allowed me to show her any affection or talk with her. I explained how this is how intimacy in a relationship is built and maintained, she listened and seemed interested.

For the next two hours we laid in in bed while I held her and we talked about tons of stuff. I asked her how it felt for me to hold her, she said it made her feel warm and loved and safe. she said in the past when we talk I always had my arms crossed, this made her feel like I was judging her and on the attack. I explained that was just a habit and how all the men in my family just did it, I told her how happy I was that she shared this with me and how I will keep it in mind. I asked her if she could agree to just sit and talk with me while I show her some affection for a few weeks and see how it goes, she said she could not agree to that. Then I re-stated "what I meant to say is can you agree to do this until my behavior starts to make you feel un-safe in our relationship" she enthusiastically said yes!

I think all in all it was a good night, I'm not expecting anything but at least it may be a start to re-building our marriage. She seemed surprised when I told her I was not sure if I still wanted to be married to her yet. She asked why are you doing all of this then? I told her first it is the right thing to do, and second I am not doing this for you or for me but for us as a family. I told her that what we have or what we could have together is definitely worth fighting for.

Your Plan A is working, nice. However, it seems that she is unwilling to become an honest person, she is not telling you everything, although she claims to be an honest woman and expects you to just stop "grilling" her because of that. She has not come clean, yet.

yes I agree, I will keep snooping. We will go to her parents house next weekend, I will discuss this with them and ask them to support me in being the best husband I can be to their daughter. I can understand they may be disappointed with me but I think they will have to respect the fact that I want to be the best person I can be to their daughter and granddaughter.

I think you will benefit from having a call to Steve Harley, it is told here that he is the best of talkin WS's around and get them engaged to the programme. Please consider this.

Agreed. Though I'm not sure if me and WW are in recovery yet, she has made some significant improvements since we started telephone counseling with Steve. I tried implementing the MB principles myself and getting her to commit, but it wasn't working.

Steve didn't tell her much of anything that I hadn't told her (ok, he told her the same ideas but in a much more professional manner), but it was coming from a third party...and that makes a HUGE difference, especially for foggy waywards. If you can afford it, the counseling is worth it. My marriage may not be saved, but I know I helped it A LOT by talking with Steve.

I read the article where Dr. Harley is talking about electric fence personality... I think this may describe my wife quite accurately. Any advice on this?

Ok so if she does, what are you going to do to get on her side of the fence?

When she is honest with you how do you react?

In the past if she told me something I didn't like I would get angry and scold her much like a parent. Going forward I will have to prove to her that she can confide in me and I will be supportive of her. I have told her that I did not trust that she would come to me if she was feeling un-safe in our relationship. I told her I didn't trust that she would be aware of our situation until boundaries had already been crossed and she was in too deep to get out of. I think only through my consistent support of her will she develop this trust and let me know where her fences are. I think I will show her the article some day and see if she sees any similarity in herself... but not today.

It is fairly clear now, I always felt abandon when she would pull away from me. I would then chase her and pull her closer to me to not feel abandoned. She was not leaving me she was just trying to get to safety. I have recently learned that when she pulls away she just needs her space, if I let her cool off for a bit she will find a way to cross the fence safely when she is ready.

RCX,
I am encouraged by some of your posts. You seem to have a good mix of reality and still protecting yourself and your marriage.
I can guarantee you will benefit from a call to Steve. It's expensive but very worth it. I would suggest talking to your wife about it and taking the action when yo both feel it's something you want - otherwise we're talking Indpendnet Behavior, in my view. If I could do that part again, I would have talked about the expenses of divorce in comparison with the expenses of trying to save a marriage. Even if you spend a couple thousand trying to get some sort of common language going, and then wind up going D, the 2 or 3 grand wrapped into the cost of the divorce will not even be felt.

Waywards are a hard sell because they just simply can't envision a happy marriage with their BS's. But Steve's approach is that the day you were married, you simply couldn't envision being in the situation you are in right? So logically, things CAN happen even if you don't see the possibility. Since divorce is so monumental and life changing (in spite of what one might hear from their workout partners), it's worth a shot to at least consider the possibilty of getting things on track. The right way this time - with a PLAN, since the plan you've had has lead you to this (I know you have a plan RCX, I'm talking conceptually here).

opt

So we spent the entire long weekend together, it was pleasant. We spent some time snuggling and talking every night before bed... yet she is still full speed ahead with the divorce??

I can see that her feelings are changing, she is much nicer to me lately. She compliments me and is very considerate of my feelings (these are her love languages not mine) much more than a few weeks ago. I have to believe that her giving me LB deposits is a good thing (even though the currency is wrong). I have been showing her affection without smothering her and she will react in a very loving manner at first, but sometimes she catches herself and pulls back.

We went on a "date" on Friday night and she asked how I was feeling, I told her I was sad that our marriage was ending. I also said I was kind of hurt that she was treating this divorce like a process and her biggest concern was what color walls her new house would have. She teared up and told me she understood but that this was her way of coping. She admitted that she tries as hard as possible to not think about it. She also agreed that she buries herself in her work and going to the gym so she doesn't have to think about divorced life. She said she really really likes work and the gym because everyone there is nice to her and gives her compliments (she has a huge thirst for compliments and praise). I have been trying to compliment her or at least notice everything she does lately, showing my appreciation for all of the little things yet keeping it genuine.

My guess is that your advice will be to stay the course and pursue some counselling with the Harleys. I know that my intentions will only be proven through consistent actions so that is not an issue. But right now I know she will totally reject any form on counselling.

On a side note she has been spending much less time at the gym over the past two weeks, and she leaves her phone on the charger when she is home. I have not found any new evidence of inappropriate behavior, but spending more time with me and less time at the gym and with her phone seem to be good signs.

RCX,

I would still call to Steve. It is told here that he is very good in talking WS's over. It is definitely worth of it. You may not get through to her yourself, but Steve can. Then you can actually say that you've done everything in your power to turn this thing around.

Take a look here : http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=6

I emailed my situation to them, they said they will review and email me back on how to proceed.

Agreed. Steve is the man. He has helped my WW come out of the fog and given me a plan as well. I doubt my marriage will be saved, there's just too much pain on my end, but at least now I know the truth about our relationship.

Call Steve. You won't regret it.

Of course every situation is different but approximately how many sessions should I expect to take?

I think you can buy a package of 3 or 5 sessions for less money per session.
I would record each session -- I did one with steve in my car on speaker phone with my VAR running. It was helpful to listen to it again.
You'll definitely need one session with you, one for her, and then at least one as a followup (maybe for both of you); to get the most benefit -- that would be my view.

I'm really glad you've contacted the radio show. I think that is a great place to start. I don't listen every day so I hople you'll post when its going to be on.

I still have apprehensions for you about spending money without consulting her -- it's IB, and plenty of it. I'd like to hear how other posters would address this. IOW, if sh'es not on board for counselling (which you don't really know by the way, from yor posts); then she certainly isn't going to be on board with spending cruise money on a talking session with someone she doesn't know half way accross the country.

I think you're on the right track RCX.

opt

--this is a huge opportunity rcx, which I'm sure you recognize. One of the best forms of RC per Dr. Harley is walking every night. 20-30 minutes. It's exercise, plus there's nothing to do but talk. Doesn't have to be a big deal going to the gym and all that, just a nice brisk walk after dinner. It's like a miracle drug for marriages. I hope you can do this.

opt

AJoseJake,

I doubt my marriage will be saved, there's just too much pain on my end, but at least now I know the truth about our relationship.

Steve may be able to help your WW overcome her addiction and live a better life. With or without you she is still your childs Mother, and for that reason alone is she is worth saving. With the path she is on she will end up with some psycho, drug addicted or with some horrible disease and your child will have only one parent left.

Yes it is difficult to comprehend 8 OM and she is still only in her 20s.

God Bless
Gamma

I have not purchased any sessions yet, I will definitely clear it with her before I do. In my email to MB I asked them how the best way to get my wife on board would be.

Her attitude towards me has been steadily improving over the past weeks. If it were not for the lack of kissing and sex I doubt anyone would be able to tell that we were having any problems. We have been talking more and more every day/night and she has allowed me to show her increasing amounts of affection. Last night I ran my fingers through her hair while she fell asleep, when she fell asleep I tucked her in and gave her a kiss on the forehead she told me "thank you honey". I am hoping over the next week or so she will show some willingness to work out our issues. This is when I will propose MB phone counselling.

The only need I can see anyone other than me meeting right now is admiration. People at work compliment her and tell her good job, people at the gym tell her how strong of a woman she is and how she deserves a great husband...etc. Can intimacy be built with admiration (I guess you can add RC at the gym)? I don't think RC is really that important to my wife for her it is more about affection and admiration. I hope she values my opinion of her as a wife/person/mother over her employers opinion of her as a worker.

we see a lot of false recoveries on this board so forgive me if I have some concerns about the lack of kissing and SF -- it often is because a wayward doesn't want to "cheat" on their AP. Believe it or not, that is how twisted the logic gets.

However, I share your encouragement and I still think you're on the right track.

I hope if you get dr. h on the phone you can have him address why workplace affairs are so common, and more importantly why people often feel more "appreciated" at work than at home. He has some good logic on that subject.

Concepts: RC IS an intimate EN. 1 of the 4. conversation, SF, RC, and Affection. So, she may not identify RC as a high EN, but it is part of an intimate relationship.
I would also submit that spouses in withdrawal often don't acknowledge an intimate need (SF, Affection, etc.); it's some sort of phenomenon I've read about here somewhere.

I would keep that in mind as you schedule your time together. Re-read about RC and how it strengthens a relationship; perhaps share it with her as further introduction to the material you've come accross that has helped you see things differently and helped inspire you to change the behaviors that she has noticed.

opt

In my email to MB I asked for advice on how to get my wife to agree to get on the phone with Steve. He called me personally today to answer all of my questions! So I told him our story and he said it does not sound like my wife is involved in an affair so to speak, but he thought she is in what he called a "fantasy" mode. He said she is most likely flirting to test the waters and see how she could do as a single woman. I would agree that this theory sounds like her personality, and most of the things she is saying/doing also support this theory.

He told me I seemed to be doing a great job and the changes in her behavior towards me are promising. He said the best thing I can do is keep explaining to my wife that the changes I have made are different this time because it is a "life style" change. I'm doing things now because I understand how important they are for our marriage, not just because someone told me I was supposed to do them. He stressed the importance of consistency in plan A because it can not seem fake, and told me she will have a very difficult divorcing the good husband I have become.

Her behavior around me is continuously improving, and she is opening up to me a little more every day. Last night she talked with me for quite a while about her job, this was a big step because a major love buster for her was when I make DJs about her job. She has avoided all discussions about her job in the past month or so, but last night she was telling me all kinds of things and asking for advice about her career.

For now I'll keep up the plan A and wait until I feel she will be receptive to some phone counseling. It will definitely take someone other than myself to get her fully on board to rebuild our marriage.

I have read many posts where divorced people are talking about how they wished they would have given it one more try and how the connection they had with their child's parent was so much stronger than the new connection they have with spouse #2. I really wish she would read some of this and give it serious consideration. I know I could get married again and maybe be happier with my new spouse than my current... but it would not be the same, we would not have the same family bond. I really wish she felt the same way, who knows maybe she does feel this way but is too scared to admit it to me or herself?

Good job RCX. I'm so happy for you for getting direction from Steve.

You sound like you have refreshed, new energy. Keep it up.

Very good job, RCX, very good.


Well, what you can do, is to print something out and accidentally 'leave' the pages on the table or somewhere she can see them. Try with those pages first which are positive, so that she might see what is positive about MB, what she can benefit in MB marriage. Along with some success stories.

Her behavior around me is continuously improving, and she is opening up to me a little more every day. Last night she talked with me for quite a while about her job, this was a big step because a major love buster for her was when I make DJs about her job. She has avoided all discussions about her job in the past month or so, but last night she was telling me all kinds of things and asking for advice about her career.

-yup, that's how LBs destroy a marriage, little by little. It's part of the "we've grown apart" eventuality. That you've recognized it, taken responsibility, and are making changes bodes very well for you RCX. I'm sure you understand the magnitude of it. You are now reversing the tide, that's monumental and to your credit. But it is a big tide, people are fragile, so time and sonsistency are critical. Dr. H was saying yesterday the tremendous capacity women have for REMEMBERING the hurtful things they have experienced (I think I'm part woman because I'm the same way).
Point: that you're listening and giving encouragement and admiration, must be so refreshing for her. You seem to realize that its more in line with a happy partnership to do so, your actions are sincere; and that will be your ultimate success. You don't need to worry about reverting back because you are being honest. It's going to to a long ways for you

Glad to hear you got Steve on the phone. He really is something.
I would continue to walk the walk and when and opportunity arises you can talk the talk (don't push it in her face, like we BS's often are tempted to do). "Honey, why are you being so supportive?" rcx:"It's called Admiration and I never realized how important of an EN it was until I discovered MB philosophy for healthy marriages". I like MRS R's suggestion but I also think waywards get suspicious when they see stuff printed out. "What was so important to print out and what were you planning to do with it?"
I'd just keep leading by example.

opt

Yes I like the suggestion to try to put a bug in her ear that your first marriage will always be your best... but she would not appreciate anything left around the house. She gets very suspicious about things like this. One time when she went on a trip, as a favor to her I loaded my ipod with a "top 40" play list (her type of music) that I downloaded. The play list contained the song "I need you now" by Lady Antebellum and she thought I strategically put that song in there to manipulate her.

The good news is that she has not discussed the divorce in a few weeks. Originally she had an entire list of things that needed to be done and agreements that needed to be made. She has not brought any of these up in the last few weeks. She has been looking at houses and property, but it is nothing that she can afford and the locations are not practical for her. I really hope this is all just part of the "fantasy mode" that Steve talked about, of course this could be just wishful thinking on my part?

It has been a little over one month and she has gone from getting irate when I try to talk to her, showing pain when I try to touch her, and avoiding interaction with me at all costs, to calling me to just chat once in a while, if I put my hand on her knee she will usually put her hand on mine (at least for a while), asking me to eat dinner at the table with her, and laying in bed making full eye contact and just talking about lots of things.

I keep wishing for a "lightning bolt" (figuratively not literally) to hit her and snap her out of this but I think it is more like making wine, it takes time and very consistent stable conditions to have a good end product.

Just keep doing what Steve tells you and your consistencies will be her lighting bolt.

This is ALL good in my view.
You've come to the conclusion that you could have a better marriage than you ever thought possible. You've also recognized that it doesn't just come naturally.

This was illustrated in another post and I drew a parallel to everything else. The statement was from a crazy wayward (much like my exWW used to say), "a good marriage should just come naturally if 2 people are meant to be together"....blah,blah,blah; they are in fantasy mode with their AP's usually. The parallel is, well, let's see it would be nice if financial well-being just came naturally too, but it doesn't. How about physical health? How about a good golf swing, or the ability to play the piano, or crafting a good wine? It would be nice if everything came natural without having to put some effort into it.

The real good news is you've adopted a policy that actually works. The "effort" of meeting EN's, eliminating LB's, and using POJA (#1 rule), and minimum UA time (#2 rule) create conditions where two human beings continue to be in love with each other.

She's learning that she can trust you RCX, and that she can count on you to be there for her. She's learning she can be safe with you. That's a great foundation.

Next step is going to be selling her on the proposition that in order to fully recover so that things don't revert back to pre-affair state, both of you will need to have a new plan. If you both lost 50 pounds then said "we're all set, where's the ice cream" then you'd be right back where you started. But I don't think there is an urgency to get the principles out on the table, you're making progress now, I say stay this course for some time. YOU need to always have a plan for now. So what's ahead?

Do you have any trips coming up?
What's on the schedule for the weekend?
How much UA time can you get in?
Are you meeting her EN's -- and is she meeting any of yours- perhaps without knowing it?

Just a few thoughts.

opt

Nothing really new to report, she has been pleasant to be around and she is treating me the way she likes to be treated so I guess she is making LB deposits to me (unfortunately the currency is totally wrong). I was flirting with her quite a bit this morning, she seemed to like it and played along.

I guess for now as long as things don't get worse I should assume they are getting better... Its a very long marathon right?

During my plan A I have been spending a lot of my time cooking, cleaning, and doing other jobs around the house. At night I try to spend as much time with my wife as possible talking, I have been asking her about stories from her youth and also talking about funny things my daughter has done (trying to recall the good memories) Anyway I really have not been doing much for myself other than work out after she goes to bed. I'm wondering if this is causing her to loose respect for me? I have not been mopy or depressed at all but I have not been the dominant take charge guy she fell in love with. I'm wondering how I can show her that I will be fine without her and I am not a feeble guy.

As I have mentioned she has been steadily looking at houses and property but seemingly not working on the divorce. I take this as a good thing since she has always looked at properties and houses as kind of a hobby, and hopefully not working towards the divorce means we are in a "holding pattern". I was wondering if it would send a good message if I started looking at houses for me while continuing my plan A? Like saying "I will continue to be this person that I have become weather you are with me or not". Let her know that she doesn't hold all the cards, that I will be fine without her yet that is not my first choice? Her property search is all over the place, looking at lots that are not build able... too expensive... too far from good schools... nothing realistic. If I found a suitable house near good schools and put an offer in on it I think that would let her know that im not her little lap dog waiting for her to take me back, that I will have a great life with or without her.

Of course I would continue my plan A and I would let her know what I was doing so it wouldn't be IB but just show that I to am preparing for life without her.

What do you think, should I try to break the stalemate or keep up what I am doing for a few more weeks??

Why not look at houses together? LB deposits and UA time?

Steve keeps telling you to stay on track, correct?

It is working, correct?

Is your taker coming out?

Why would you working out cause her to lose respect for you? You're looking good for her? Why not workout together?

To me you're doing a great job. Remember marathon not a sprint.

I wouldn't say my taker is coming out because I'm not concerned about my needs, but I'm starting to get frustrated with this situation. She is not in an actual affair with any real person (as Steve said she is most likely in a fantasy world imagining a different life), I don't beat her, I'm not an alcoholic, I don't gamble, I am very attractive, I make a very good income, we live in the house that she designed (her dream house). All that I am guilty of was making some DJs about her job and not being around for a few weeks. This is nothing to get divorced over, this is an immature little girl throwing a fit because she didn't get everything she ever wanted at her sweet 16 birthday party!!!

She is not at all considering what she is destroying, the emotional and financial damage she is creating (yes I know, if I would have done a better job of meeting her needs we might not be in this situation). She is a little unhappy at the moment so she is making rash decisions that will effect us and our daughter for the rest of our lives. She is a text book renter, her mother is the same way. The only reason they are still married is that her father is more than happy to be the full time maintenance man tending for their marriage.

When ever I talk about how this event has changed me and how before I was doing things because I thought that is what I was supposed to do, but now I'm doing things because I understand how the will help or hurt our marriage she always just says "well you should have figured this out months ago" or she will make some business reference to me like I'm a supplier to her or something. In our last counseling session she again was unwilling to see how she could have any part in the breakdown of our marriage, in her eyes she is the prototype person, perfect in every way.

Sorry for the rant but I needed to get that off my chest, I love my wife but I hate when she acts like a spoiled brat. I want desperately for her to become a buyer and do what it takes to maintain a happy safe marriage but I fear that will never happen. She is basically a renter in every aspect of her life, everything including her direct family is disposable to her if they don't serve a need to her any more. She is always on the look out for something newer, and better.

I know, I know, this post is full of DJs towards my wife... but I am just looking for the subtlest clue that she is willing to consider becoming a buyer.

This is from Dr. Harley's Giver and Taker Article here The Giver and Taker

RCX you're doing a good job. This is a very painful situation.

When is your next session with Steve H? Have you asked him about you thinking she has "the electric fence" personality and how to deal with that?

What has Steve told you about her being a renter?
Steve doesn't think she is still involved in the affair anymore so he keeps telling you to keep your head down and keep going? Correct?

RCX, I will disregard your very last post and try to answer this one.


Keep it up. I can see that you are worried about being a doormat or something. This feeling can be avoided when you don't act like one. You calmly but firmly talk about your feelings and practise radical honesty, too. Plan A is becoming a better man, sort of practising and showing to your WS what's it going to be like if she chooses to stay married to you. If you choose not to speak your mind you will give her wrong impression. That you take HER unconditionally while she can take YOU for granted.

Here's also a quote from Carrot and Stick of Plan A thread that might cheer you up:

Mrs Recon,

Thank you so much for that, reading that woman's story brought tears to my eyes and filled me with inspiration. There is so much in there that relates to my life.

Some quotes that really gave me inspiration and reassurance were:

Plan A'ers are not like doormats to wipe your feet upon and to mis-use .... more like a *welcome home* sign... if both persons choose to re-inter the marriage!

So far I have not been a doormat to her but I am scared of being perceived as one. Reading this reassured me that I am not her doormat but more like her light house guiding her to the safe harbor of our marriage should she choose to to come home. I know when I am being taken advantage of and I can choose to politely and respectfully draw the line there.

And, asking this question to the *fogged-in* infidel is pointless. They got INTO the affair because they were lost to themselves, and went searching for a new self .... and, INSTEAD of differentiating themselves ... they fused identity to yet another relationship ... actually moving away from a healthy differentiated view of their self-worth ----> I am wonderful because my affair partner thinks so.

This is so true, but in her case it was "I am wonderful because someone at work complimented me more than my husband" or "I am important because the girls at the gym admire me more than my husband". I need to be her inspiration and be a model of "Im important because I think I am" or "I am a good person because I am proud of myself" (...or something like that). Show her that self worth and happiness comes from your family and your self not a new house or a new pair of shoes or some random stranger at the gym. I once read an article that was comparing marriage to two broken bottles. The story goes that there were two broken bottles that were no good as a vessel on their own, however luckily when they were put together the shards fit just right that the two bottles together could hold water. This worked fine until one of the bottles changed ever so slightly, then the two bottles no longer fit and could not hold water. Two broken people are no good in a marriage over time, it takes two "healthy on their own" people to make a marriage grow over time.


Yesterday afternoon we talked a bit, my behavior came up and she said something like "I am very proud of what you are trying to do but I know it will change back and I don't want to be here when that day comes, so my mind is still made up, we are getting divorced". I explained that my behavior will not change because the changes I have made are based on a belief system change not an attitude adjustment. I told her the changes were not for her but were for me and our daughter who needs a good male figure in her life. She said something like "well what ever we are still getting a divorce, I will never be able trust you and I just deserve to be happy". She was starting to get a little angry and hostile so I just told her I agreed that she does deserve to be happy, I gave her a smile and kiss on the forehead and left her alone. A few minutes she came over to me and gave me a little smile and started to flirt, so I flirted back and we ended up in a "play fight" wrestling on the living room floor. My daughter came over to see what the fuss was about so we stopped but then she still sat on my lap for a few minutes holding my hand?? I don't think these are the actions of someone who is 100% set on divorce. Much like it is said to people in plan A "actions speak, not words" I think I should keep the same in mind for her. She may tell me she is dead set on divorce but all of her actions say otherwise. Im sure there is some part of her brain telling her that all of this is fake, but there is definitely another part of her telling her it just might be real.

You are a good woman Mrs. Recon, I can see why your husband fought so hard for you. Thanks so much for that post, it was just what I needed.

Read this for some inspiration.

Be the lighthouse...a post for those feeling tossed to the waves

Thanks BH,

I just need to remember time and patience, time and patience.

I suppose I should feel some relief that it doesn't seem that she is trying to fill voids in her life with another man, but it almost makes me more frustrated that she is trying to fill the voids with empty compliments from strangers, a new house, a new phone, new clothes, ... all material things.

Eventually when all of these things fail to fulfill her maybe she will follow my light home.

Yes you're correct time and patience time and patience. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Remember even though she is out of the affair sometimes waywards take a time to completely come out of the fog. That is why the BS HAS to be the rock.

You sound much better today.

RCX,

When's your next session with Steve H?

I feel much better today!

The people here are my rock, I will always be in debt to everyone who posts here.

Thank you so much

Haven't scheduled another session yet, since he didn't feel she was in an actual affair he reccomended "riding the wave" and maintaining my plan A until something new develops or I can't take it anymore.

I'll keep you all posted

RCX,
I was away for a few days but I can see that you were getting excellent counsel!
From reading your posts I can see that you are drawing exactly from this expeience what AI would hope most would. You are becoming a rock and a lighthouse. It's remarkable.

As for the "you'll change so we're still getting divorced" (that stuck out to me).
Sounds like you handled this fantasy/fog babble perfectly. I would expect you have portrayed that you would EXPECT her to leave if you reverted back to the pre-affair RCX, no? Isn't that the point of all these changes, all the insight, all the effort, all the concentration, all the introspection...?
Also I think waywards have a tendency to test the resolve of their betrayds. This my be just me theorizing but people do test each other, even if unknowingly I think.

In the end it's everyone's right to pursue a divorce. "I might divorce you" is nothing until the judge slams the gavel. So, point is, she's not telling you anything you didn't know. In the MB world it's nothing more than a complaint. And complaints are good (helps if they're more specific, but we can work on that as we go along). They help us identify where love units are being lost. I would hope my girlfriend (possibly fiance soon...) would let me know if I was doing anything to make my love units with her go down. I want her to stay in love with me; it's a nice feeling.

BTW. I find the LB concept to be quite a good place to start with all the MB stuff, if your ww shows any interest. It's even good for kids -- I have my kids thinking about it. So cute -- one will do something to the other and it's "Okay you just withdrew 1,000,000 love units!"
I've heard this concept in the business world as well (relationship bank or something like that). So it can be presented without being obnoxious or pushy....

Good luck you're doing awesome. Think (Boston) Marathon!

opt

Nothing really new to report, yesterday she called me on her way home from work just to chat (like she used to do) after about 15-20 min I think she realized what she was doing and quickly said she had to go.

I called her today to just check in on how her day was going, we talked for ~20 minutes it was a nice talk. She told me about some issues at work and I said I was proud of how she handled them. This should make major LB deposits.

She also got some quotes back from house plans she was looking at, they came in WAY over her budget. Hopefully my consistent behavior and no prospects of a new home are starting to fracture her "fantasy world".

I'm sure you all know this but it sure is lonely being a light house!

When you're feeling alone, picture us standing beside you.

Like!

Next time when she calls tell her how much you like when she calls you in the middle of the day (in case of course, you really do). Every time when she does something that you really like, tell her so. Show her that it is safe for her to do the things you like and that you don't misuse this care, whether it was accidental or not.

I'm sure it felt AAAWWWkward to her to realise that she actually cares. But I'm also sure that she likes it when your relationship is warm and friendly.

We have been telling each other on occasion when we like something or not. However I worry that if I tell her I like something she will stop doing it because she has told me things like "I worry that by doing XXX or YYY you will get false hope that I want to stay married".

In my mind she has shown by her actions and emotions that she still loves me, however her brain (and history) is telling her our marriage is unsafe for her so she should get a divorce. To me the only way to help resolve her inner conflict it to stay the course and make sure my signal light is always shining bright no matter what the circumstance.

What do you all think?

I think it's more twisted fantasy/fog babble and should be regarded as such, and should be countered with nothing more than your current plan, which is a solid Plan A. You'll read on the recovery boards about FWS's who thank their BS's for showing resolve in the face of their mania.

RCX, she can do, or stop doing, whatever she wishes. You are building a new RCX and a wonderful marriage here. Both of which she will be proud to be involved with IF she decides to stay with you. You have no control over that. What you do have control over is whether you adopt the principles of MB, for you and your family. One of the principles is Openness and Honesty. If that policy is applied, then when your wife does something you like, you absolutely should tell her about it. End of story. Likewise if she does something you don't like (an annoying habit, LoveBuster) -- in a nice, respectful way, those thoughts are voiced. So that you can stay in love with her.

Be the beacon. Just because the ship is being tossed about and going off course doesn't mean you go off your mooring. Then you BOTH wind up lost.

opt

Thanks Opt,

It is just so frustrating some times, but I just need to keep reminding myself "she is drunk, she doesn't know what she is saying". We did talk a little last night, I asked her what she was afraid of in divorce. She said she was concerned of how my daughter will react to it, and she was scared of being alone. I gently brought it up about how most people who get divorced say their second marriage is no better than their first (the people who didn't heal themselves after the failed marriage) and how people who do remarry generally never have the same bond with their new spouse as they do with their child's parent. She said she has also heard this but hadn't given it much thought. I couldn't tell if she was really listening to what I was saying or if it was going in one ear and out the other??

I'm thinking I need to "differentiate" myself from our relationship more (as the light house article posted by Mrs. Recon said). I need something of my own, something to show her that I will be fine with or without her. I have always just had my family and my work to take all of my time, currently my work is suffering a bit because I am trying to spend as much time with my family as possible. I do work out after everyone is in bed but that is it.

My day looks like this:
Morning, wake up, daughter and I eat breakfast together we do our morning routines and drop her off at school ~8:15

Work until ~6 pm (used to be later) get home and eat dinner with daughter, sometimes wife. Read daughter a book and she goes to bed between 730-800. Generally wife will also get in bed ~8:00 she will watch TV for 30min to an hour and then go to bed as well. I try to sit with her and talk as much as possible (she is not on board with MB so no UA yet) after she falls asleep I will catch up on some work or go downstairs to work out.

Any suggestions on how I can "differentiate" myself?

Here it is again for you when I posted it to you.

Here it is for a refresher.

Indeed, there may not be much reaction but the words you say now might rattle around in there and eventually come to rest someplace in her neurons. Keep speaking the truth and letting her know your feelings in a respectful way and you can't go wrong. She's right, there are a LOT of lonely ex-wives out there. It's not a pretty picture.


Seems to me you're differentiated enough just in the fact that you want your marriage and your family to be wonderful and your wife is currently indecisive on the subject.

I don't know about this. Usually it's the differentiating that makes people drift apart in a marriage. It would be really nice if your wife joined you at the table. And what was the response to the idea of walking together after dinner? Perhaps as part of your daily workout...

opt

Yes it would be wonderful if one day she woke up and said good morning, I have thought long and hard and I think our family deserves another chance, but that doesn't seem likely to happen. Sometimes she calls me to just chat, and other days she seems to try and keep her distance? I have told her that we should do some things together and she has been kind of ok with it but not fully on board. Maybe this weekend we can have some good UA time working outside. She has actually told me in the past that she feels really connected to me when we do a project together.

I have kept up the snooping but still have not found anything new. I remember the way she acted in the past when she was texting her old boyfriend (2 yrs ago). She was always cold and never wanted to talk much. She does not seem the same way this time, if I call her she is happy and cheery, doesn't seem in a hurry to get off the phone. When we are together she is generally warm and depending on the situation she may even show love to me? Could a woman who is pursuing an affair act this way? How could someone who is so hurt by their husband that that must get a divorce act this way?

Gotta disagree here. I'm remarried and have a connection with my DW I never had with WXW. Things are a million times better and I have a baby on the way.

I woldn't go back to my ex if she was the last woman left on the planet. I would never speak to her or associate with her in any way if it wasn't for my kids.

I once felt just as you do.

Where do things stand legally. She may be talking divorce, but nothing happens unless the ball gets rolling and I can tell you that there is no such thing as an amicable D.

I was served with divorce papers about a month ago so the ball is rolling. In the beginning she was trying to fast track everything and get the D finalized as soon as possible, but now it "seems" as if things have slowed down, she has not been in contact with her lawyer since I was served, but that may not mean anything. Right now she is under the impression that it will be a "pleasant parting" but if things keep headed in this direction she will be in for a fight. I will sacrifice everything to have equal physical custody of our daughter, this whole process has shown me that family is the most important thing in life.

As far as our relationship goes she has not asked me to move out, all of our interactions are pleasant, she is even flirty and loving towards me occasionally. We are still sleeping in the same bed (no kissing or sex) and we talk on the phone several times a day. I have discussed this with Steve Harley and he didn't think she was having an actual affair but thought she was in a "fantasy mode" where she may be flirting with guys and kind of testing the waters to see how single life would be. I agree with Steve's theory since she is the type of person who is always looking for something bigger and better. He recommended continuing with plan A until things change (good or bad) or until I could not do it any more.

I wanted you to post here so I could ask you what you would have done differently during your discovery of your wife's affair and divorce? I understand you are much happier with your current wife/life and I am sure I could go find a new wife who would make me much happier also, but I owe it to my daughter to try to salvage the family I have now.

I don't have any expectations of my plan A except that I will come out a better person... but hopefully I can serve as an inspiration to my wife should she ever choose to remove her head from her [censored]. Our relationship has never been great, but based on the personal growth I have made I believe it COULD be great if we both were dedicated to it.

I would have stood firmer.

Follow the carrot/stick of Plan A.

I see some similarities to your situation. WXW and I would go on dates. I clung to hope. I thought that making things easy would lead to a better chance to reconcile down the road.

We would go out, have some laughs, etc. It was all for just one purpose: It was her way to walk away with less guilt.

So if D comes up, make it clear that you don't want to go down that road but that if she insists on doing so that you won't make it easy and you sure as hell aren't going to be friends when it is all over.

She has a delusion in her mind that you will be friends.

Trust me when I tell you, if you go down the D route you will not be friends.

I can't emphasize this to you enough. There is no "being friends" post divorce. That works in Hollywood, not in real life. In real life women won't want to date a man who is all "friends" with his ex. It is one thing to be amicable and get along well enough around the kids, it is quite another to be friends.

But my main advice to you is to start resisting talk of D. I tried to stand my ground on D once, saying I wouldn't go along with it. She brow beat me, screaming that if I fought it that I'd ruin any chance of reconciling down the road and that it would be ugly and we'd never be friends.

So I sulked, said sorry, and went back into her plan.

What did she do when the papers were signed? She declared herself free and started looking for guys online right away. 9 months later she was living with someone else while I paid out the nose for child support and hardly saw my kids.

I finally woke up and fought and it cost me $50k in legal fees. Would have saved a lot more if I had been firm and resisted from the start.

And whatever you do, don't be the one to move out.

So if D comes up, make it clear...that if she insists on doing so that you won't make it easy and you sure as hell aren't going to be friends when it is all over.

Repeated for emphasis...

And btw, even THINKING about gracefully vacating your family home at her request indicates you need a strong injection of "No Eff-ing way!" extract.

I can't emphasize to you enough, speaking from experience, that you can't play this game nicely and hope to recover your marriage.

A WW is under the delusion that you guys will split amicably, and that you'll be happy rarely seeing the kids, paying out the nose in CS, and content she found happiness while she frolics in the fields with bunnies and rainbows with her OM, the kids, and you all stare lovingly at how wonderful her love is with her and OM.

So your job is to shatter that fantasy, paint the ugly reality of D for her, and show a much more appealing alternative in recovery.

So when's your next apt with Steve? When's your apt with your doctor? I also found this on AD's from the good doctor himself. concentration in this time of unprecedented crisis?

There has been little talk of divorce lately and no talk of fast tracking it. If she brings up waiving the 6 month waiting period I will simply tell her no way, when she asks why I will say "someday when our daughter asks me if I really did everything possible to keep our family together I want to be able to say yes I did".

I have a prescription for Xanax, those things are magic! I take half a pill before I come home to ease the tension. I can't understand her she is treating our marriage and family like some kind of business arrangement. The longer this goes on the uglier she becomes to me. She refuses to think of what divorce life will really be like, instead she focuses on her career, and finding a house plan that is "up to her standard". It is disturbing that she thinks this little of our daughters future.

From all of my snooping I still can't find any other man, like I have said before it seems like she is in love with the fantasy world she has created in her head. She still calls me to tell me if something good or bad happened during the day, calls to see how I am doing, if I call her to see how she is doing she is always chatty. Are these the actions of someone who has replaced me? Or is the behavior of a renter/freeloader?

BTW I would love any advice on how to get 50% physical custody of our daughter. Seems that the courts almost always side with the mother, but I have seen some exceptions. Any advice would be appreciated, both about custody and dealing with a renter/freeloader.

RCX,

Men who fight for custody tend to end up with the 50/50 arrangements. There is an art to getting custody as a father since what works for women doesn't work for men.

Document like crazy. Argue about them, not about you.

The secret doesn't lie in painting her as a bad parent but showing that you are as good, if not better, than she is as a parent.

If she is willing to settle for 50/50, then take it. Settle and walk away if D is inevitable.

Your best bet is to get her to agree to it.

There are books out there than can help. Custody for Fathers and Father's Rights both come to mind and are good reads worth every penny since you'll pay thousands in legal fees for the same advice.

Men lose more often in court due to mistakes made, not necessarily by the biased court system.

Fight and you'll come out ok. Let her walk away with it all and with promises that you'll get to see the kids and you'll be hosed.

RCX,

I see several options here giving your feelings and the situation:

1. Wait and see. Maybe she will turn around. Pick a certain timeline for yourself - 3 months, 6 months, a year, for how long will you be able to stick to PLan A. In the meantime, maybe this is a useful read: Can a Marriage Be Saved By One Spouse?

2. If I were in your situation I would have lost my patience much sooner and filed for divorce myself. At least I think so. What I see is that your lovebank is starting to hit the critical low and maybe it would be wise to call Steve again and ask for some advice on how to proceed.

3. It is very hard for me to believe that it is just a fantasy itself. There has to be something FEEDING this fantasy. While I think you are absolutely great in Plan A, you have not used every resource of snooping to find it out. You have no access to her work computer, phone activities. May be she is hooked up to internet dating/single whatever site/chat. Fooling around with strangers on the Internet is also an infidelity. People can grow very attached to this type of thing. Is there any possibility to ask someone from the IT department to help you with that?

RCX,
You've been doing a great Plan A for some time over a month. You're being a great Father, learning to live without LB's, and turning things around for you.
I'm glad HTLD's showed up because he has said in more clear terms what I was trying to get to back in the beginning of your thread about letting her believe in a fantasy divorce. There's no such thing as "for the children" friendships -- marriage is "for the children." Being friends with someone who has selfishly destroyed a marriage contract is teaching kids that it's okay to allow others to treat you any way they want and still have them as "friends."

I think the suggestion to pick a time line is a good one. As I've said before there tends to get to be an urgency on these boards that I don't pick up when I listen to Dr. Harley himself speak on the radio show. From my own experience, you are weighing a few months of pain against years of being unmarried to the Mother of your children. I grieve every day for the family I once had, but have all but forgotten the visceral pain of having my wife living in an alternate reality.

This concerns me:
Ask Steve about Plan B. Read about Plan B. Consider Plan B. If you do this right, you can save the love you have for her by going to Plan B and not having to expose your life to her painful selfish actions. Plan B, before she drains your love bank, gives you a chance to be very clear: "you remember that marriage 'contract' we agreed to? Well, you're not holding up your end of the agreement, and it's too painful for me to be involved with someone who refuses to put anything back into this marriage, call me when you can agree to these terms (a,b,c terms), and until then we will communicate through an intermediary."

What about the radio show? I thought you were in communication with Joyce at some point?

Hang in there. I think Dr. Harley suggests several months of Plan A for us men. (less for women because they tend to be very emotionally devastated by affairs -- it becomes too unhealthy). Did you read Surviving an Affair? That might give you some perspective.

opt

RCX,

BTW, I share this info with you exactly because my WXW still, to this day, can't understand why I'm not warm and fuzzy with her and am not basically on a friendly basis.

It's not that I desire to be an a$$. Quite the opposite. I'm cold towards her, not showing either happiness or anger. She just is. I deal with her in the same way I would deal if ordering a plane ticket on the phone, or a pizza for delivery.

She wants more of the fantasy scenario where we're buddies for the kids.

I may not be angry towards her anymore, but she simply isn't someone I wish to associate with and many men get to this point with their exes. So I understand your comment about the longer that this goes on the uglier she becomes.

If you wish to save things, then follow Steve's advice. Shelve the divorce talk, but have a lawyer on standby if you need him/her.

RCX, I hope you had a good weekend with some good UA. I remembered something that Steve told me in one of the sessions I did with him that might apply to you and your wife. He said that to get her to buy into the program I would have to appeal to her "selfish side." He said that waywards tend to be so incredibly selfish (or at least in that mode for the time-being), that it's the only way to get through to them. I believe "fantasy mode" may have the same characteristics. What he was saying if I remember right was to present everything as how it would benefit HER, not us, not family, not daughter. Since she's at the forefront of her own mind at this juncture, it's like the only language they understand.
[Me, I ran out of patience. I ran out of LB balance as I believe it started out on the low side from years of lack of SF and other unmet needs. I didn't opt for Plan B which might have helped - I didn't understand Plan B and thought it would provoke her father to fund a lengthy court battle which would eliminate my chances to see my kids; I never trusted him anymore than I trusted the ex. You seem to have more going for you -- I hope you can maintain the good and turn this thing into a marriage neither or you imagined]

I hope you can get on the radio show. Or get her to talk to Steve. I think these things would be helpful.

HTLD: I'm not at all inclined to disagree with you on the lawyer idea(or anything else in the field of D or protecting yourself). Do you have advice on how to secure a lawyer without sending the wrong message? Or how to lawyer up while sending the right message? It just seems like a dramatic step, albeit important and perhaps necessary; but their is definitely a timing thing and it tends to put others on the defensive.
I wonder if Mr. W is around -- I think he's an attorney.

opt

Well not a good weekend, we had some UA time but it does no good. She is 100% set on divorce, we talked in depth about it and based on all of the things she is saying I am more convinced now than ever that she is just not cut out for marriage. She wants everything that comes along with marriage but none of the responsibilities. She is simply running from our marriage because it involves too much investment from her. She is only comfortable in a relationship where she gets constant praise, can set her own boundaries and can get out of the commitment whenever she feels like it.

In our early sessions of marriage counseling (2yrs ago) the therapist said I had an incredibly strong personality and she had an incredibly weak one. I would definitely agree with this and at times I would use my personality to "bully" people both at work and at home. If my wife felt the least bit bullied she would emotionally retreat away from me, this would make me feel abandon and I would go chasing after her. Since the therapist pointed this out to us I have mellowed my attitude magnitudes and now I would say that I am fairly normal most of the time. She on the other hand has not strengthened herself at all. She still runs at the sign of the slightest conflict.

I tell you this story because this weekend she was telling me how she is done with our marriage because she knows I will blow up at her again one day and I still badger her. When I asked how I still badger her she said "your doing it right now"! I told her if you don't tell someone when they are doing something that bothers you how do you ever expect them to not do it... her response... "you should just know"! Finally she told me it was badgering her to ask what time she would be home, or how her day was or if she was happy... anything to try to make conversation with her is perceived as badgering. Later in the day I told her that I wanted the Realtor to relay any information about our house via email to both of us. She said "what you don't trust me" and I said "no I just don't want to have to ask you if you got any news today because I don't want you to feel badgered".

I truly believe that right now she is just too weak of a person to be involved in a real relationship. She wants to "turn off" all commitments and relationships as soon as she leaves work. She doesn't have the capacity to deal with daily conflict in her personal or professional life, in the past she has actually requested to transfer positions because she didn't get enough positive feedback from her boss. I have stopped praying that she finds her way out of the fog and started praying for her to gain the strength to get up and realize that she is actually in the fog, then find her way out.

As for my love bank it has been empty for a long time... maybe a year or more, the only reason I fight is for my daughter and her LB balance will always be in the black. I have been hoping that my example will help my wife grow into the woman she needs to be, but the longer this goes on the farther down her road of materialism, selfishness and immaturity she goes. This is why she is getting uglier to me. Right now we have basically agreed to 40:60 custody but i'm wondering if I should keep fighting for 50:50?

Sorry I know this is not what you all wanted to hear but it is what it is. I can keep up plan A until the divorce is final but it is only to prove to myself that I can be a selfless person. As of yesterday I have lost all hope for my marriage, I know that you should never have any expectations in plan a but I think we all do. As of this morning I honestly have no more expectations, from here on out it is all about me and my daughter. In the back of my mind I feel a relief, I have not taken an Xanax in a few days and I feel fine very little stress.

I'm very sorry to hear that things have taken somewhat final turn.

I hope and pray that this is not the final turn but I am emotionally and mentally prepared for it to be (no more expectations). When I think back on my life I see milestones that have molded me into who I am today. Two of the biggest milestones were the day my daughter was born (of course) and the day my wife filed for divorce. The growth I made during those two days is probably more than all of the other milestones combined, so I can not say that nothing good came from my marriage. Of course if we could just split the house and cash and go our own separate ways life would be much easier... but much more lonely as well.

Interesting.
If you can reflect back with unfiltered eyes, was WW always unreasonable & emotionally immature? Or, is this new behavior that is part of her wayward personality?

No this has always been typical for her since the day I met her. Many people over the years (including therapists) have commented on how she has always seemed immature for her position in life. She never wants to talk about anything, she sweeps all conflict under the rug, and the only thing she gets real happiness from is shopping for clothes. She gathers most of her self worth from empty compliments from strangers. She has told me several times "the clothes make the person" and she has actually told our daughter "you should wear this shirt because the other kids will like you".

She is a very responsible mother who takes great care of our daughter, but she is also teaching her poor habits. I worry that my daughter will grow up with no self esteem like my wife if I am not in the picture as much as possible. I would feel like a complete failure if my daughter has the same value system and outlook on herself and life as my wife does.

Looking back I remember thinking how incomplete she was as a person. Like she was an empty shell trying to fill herself with brand names and labels. When she met me all she talked of was how we could build a big beautiful home on a lake... that didn't make her happy so she decided we should have a baby... that didn't make her happy so she talked about how we should build a new bigger house on a better lake. When I put the brakes on this new house that is when she started getting restless. Telling me I didn't respect her wishes to build a new house (and rack up more debt), telling me how she deserves better and how I don't care about her wants or needs in life. I knew going into marriage that she was not the "right one" for me but I always thought we would grow into each other. I admit I have been a hostile husband at times but nothing worth getting divorced over.

She rarely shows any emotion other than a smile which can turn to a furious scorn at the drop of a hat. She is either happy as a clam or calling a lawyer for a divorce, nothing in the middle. I have come to realize that she is a spoiled child who wants to be in her club alone where she does not have to share with anyone else or allow them to vote on what is done.

It took divorce to humble me to my soul and make me really take stock of what I value in life, I wish I knew what it would take to humble her. She thinks a new house will make her happy, or maybe a new boyfriend, someone more outgoing and friendly who likes to take more vacations and looks up to her (her words not mine, I imagine this was the guy who turned her down). In reality she will not find happiness until she reaches rock bottom, looks at herself in the mirror and asks "who am I, and what am I doing". Rock bottom happened for me a little over a month ago, not sure how long it will take her?

Was she ever abused as a child?

She says she was never physically abused but she did tell me that her dad was very hard on her when she was a kid. Of course hard is relative but she says he would go to her sporting events and constantly yell at her. Always yelling to hustle up or get the rebound...etc, except he was yelling at her and not supporting her. She said she was very embarrassed and hated him for it. Unfortunately I see her doing some of this to our daughter some times, she looses patience very quickly and snaps at her.

She was also overweight as a child so that probably contributes to the insecurity and low self esteem. She is a beautiful woman now but always thinks she is fat or this looks bad or that looks bad.

It would be interesting to hear what steve might say about converting a renter or freeloader into a buyer. I have the book but haven't read the whole thing, I know enough to know that people go through different stages in their lives; I was surprised to know that we are all those things at different times.
I don't know about past childhood experiences or upbringing. I do believe that MB/Dr. Harley tends to disregard as most of that can be transcended with a Plan for modifying behaviors which then leads to modified brain chemistry. RCX, you have experienced this in just a short time. You will continue to see your behaviors elicit different outlooks on certain things. It's quite amazing. At one time, I couldn't imagine going a week without a beer. Now I don't really know why I would want one. I had a bad habit of AO's, now the thought of it is repulsive.

I had a conversation with someone today who had some insight into your situation. I hope you can hang on because I don't have time to elaborate right now. Maybe tomorrow. stand by please.

opt

Opt,

I'm not going anywhere and I'm still not going to fast-track our divorce. She will have to put up with my pleasantness and loving supportive demeanor for another 4 months minimum!!

I definitely agree that modified behavior will change brain chemistry to make changes permanent. But it takes conscious continued effort to initiate the changes. The person has to want to change themselves, if the person in question never strives to be better no changes can be made. She will somehow have to see herself from another point of view and realize she is not the best person she can be. Since a major love buster for her is any sort of feedback which is not 100% praise I really doubt she will ever think on her own "am I really the best version of myself".

Basically I think she will either have to become a buyer in the near future (will have to hit rock bottom) or realize that there are no better rental properties available (come back to reality). Of course I want no. 1 but I would be OK with no. 2 if she would at least entertain the idea of looking at MB concept.

Honestly I feel good right now, no pressure, no expectations, I'm living for myself and my daughter now. I have some good leads on a new home if it comes to that. I know I will be fine, I know that I am much stronger mentally and emotionally. Yes I will be lonely at times and I am scared of the life changes ahead but I know I will be able handle anything that comes my way. I am a fighter and a survivor, I always have been and always will be. I have a great support team here and my family has been wonderful, I am so proud of them and I have told them how much I love them.

I look forward to you posting your friends insight.

Thanks again

RCX, Dr Harley believes that childhood has nothing to do with marital problems. If you read the link about Can one spouse save a marriage? then in letter 2 for example he said that

More here

My father was an angry man, too, he was quick to punish us more often than I'd like to remember. I have been struggling with my weight in and out during my whole life. But my choice to be unfaithful and treat my H like crap had nothing to do with that. It was my fault entirely.

So this is not an excuse.

I don't understand couple of things.

- You say there is no infidelity activity based on your sources. Some while ago you reflected over the possibility that there might something going on at her workplace you have no access to. Then you came to the idea to ask her workplace IT department for help. Why have you chosen not to contact her IT department?

- Do you want to have a divorce yourself and why? If she were not that wayward would you like to stay married to her?

I very much like the idea Steve told Optimism. That would be something to try. I am a little confused over this, though, I mean I don't have an idea what lines to actually use to get under the skin of WW who only understands me-me-me, but doesn't understand US, but the MB is about US not ME. Maybe Opt or someone else have ideas which words/lines to use.

Welllllllllllll, not exactly a friend.

Your wife sounds so much like my exww I felt compelled yesterday to break one of my rules with her. I asked a bit of a personal question. There are risks involved but I feel there is enough water under the bridge and we are both pretty reasonable people, so I indulged my curiosity and pursued some info for your benefit hopefully.
I set up the scenario as is and explained that I was wondering how to advise you. Particularly how to respond to the old "you're badgering me." See my exww was like that toward the end, just defiant as hell. The more I wanted to know what was going on in my marriage, the more she acted like a selfish teenager.

She (exww) was very insightful though. She said that everything I tried was all wrong (to that point - I agree that I was not carrying out the MB plan very well. I was way to impatient and stressed out. You seem to be more of a cool customer and that I believe is much to your credit and will lead to a better result.)

Her insight was that what I should have done was "separate" from her and let her see how hard things were really going to be. Now, she still knows nothing of MB. But the translation of that is: Plan B.

She went on to say that things were much harder than she ever thought they were going to be without me. She didn't elaborate on what exactly was harder - the finances, the emotional part, the loneliness....I don't want to know. I feel bad enough for her as it is. She's alone, One guy (OM#2) she still hangs around a couple times/week in a most likely platonic relationship (the kind that still breaks up a marriage when coming off a full "ILYBNILWY" relationship with someone else); but he's a loser. Her friends are married and she is working so hard she doesn't have the time or energy to go out and meet people. Her back is bad, probably from the stress and extra work (she minds a couple of babies).

This is a woman who once commanded the attention of every man within a 5 mile radius, knowing how to carry herself and to dress in a classy way, cute, bubbly, and (apparently) affectionate. She probably thought they would be falling all over her once she got rid of me. Well, they're not.

She wanted to talk to your wife. She sounded very sad for her. She also said, however that some people are just so shallow, that they can make it "work" for them. She cited a former friend of ours who went through the process and had a boyfriend within weeks to "take care of her." Unfortunately, this woman, in my view, is a complete mess. Her daughter was friends with my daughter and is now so wrecked you can see it in her face and her behavior has completely changed -- the mom is hardly ever home, out partying a lot, going to casinos and drinking. Frankly I'm not even sure the D is final, it's a disaster and even if someone is "taking care of her" now, these aren't the type of men who stick around.

I wish your wife would really open her eyes to some of the reality of the situation. There is death and destruction all around her, but it's disguised as glitter and gold. She just doesn't get it yet.

opt

Mrs. Recon.

I completely agree that our past has nothing to do with who we will become. However I do believe our past sets us up for who we are or were. I learned how to be a man and a husband based on my father... it was up to me to realize that my lifestyle and family dynamic is completely different from the one I was raised in. I had to step back and realize that what worked for my parents will not work for my wife and I and make changes accordingly. I had to think about what my dad did to me that I didn't like and decide to never do those things to my children... but again it is the individual who has to recognize the need to change.

It took me a long time to realize that I can not go through life just doing what I felt I should do at the moment. I finally realized that even though I feel like I am doing the right thing, my actions can sometimes have a negative impact on others. So now I kind of look at things backwards, I figure out the end result I want and find a way to make that happen without pissing anyone off. It is not always easy and I have to manage my emotions carefully but I am getting better every day.

She on the other hand is still completely reactionary, she doesn't understand her behavior and how it impacts others. If I ever told her how something she did hurt me she would say "oh big tough man is hurt by little old me". If she is in a good mood she is warm and loving but if she is not, she is a cold ice queen. The therapist told me it was sad that my wife can not see how her actions impact others, she said my wife would probably never recognize any of her faults until other relationships in her life started to break down. The other problem is my wife surrounds herself with people of poor moral character. These people don't challenge or inspire her to be the best person she can be, they are low life enablers.

As for the work thing I did contact the IT department and they monitored her for a few weeks and said it was mostly business stuff with some personal texts to her friends, but nothing romantic or inappropriate. Her actions and behavior also suggests that there in no one else.

Opt,

I really appreciate you asking your XW about my situation, it sounds like she had some good insight. I think she is right, my wife has no idea how hard it will be, she is only being selfish and thinking about herself right now. But right now I am still not ready for plan B.

I'm not sure what to do right now, it has only been a month and a half of plan A. At first I saw signs of life but lately she has been a zombie without life or emotion, we are only acquaintances in the same house. I'm not sure what happened but this weekend I think I jarred something loose. Maybe it was me standing up for my rights as a father, or maybe she got a glimpse of what divorce will mean but she seems to be showing some emotions again. Another thing is that she seems to be grasping at things, to justify her decision. Yesterday she called me for no reason, we chatted for a bit and I told her I was sorry for the mis-understanding we had in the morning. She said something like "well you see this is exactly why I know i'm making the right decision" She would be the only person in the world to take what I said and interpret it the way she did. Then she started talking about how I said this and that all weekend long, she said I was constantly jabbing at her. These were stupid things like if I would have said "looks like it's going to rain soon" she would interpret it as "because you took too long to get ready we will have to drive and walk in the rain... it's all your fault and I hate you". What is this.. where does this come from?

I would love it if your ex could talk to my wife, but right now she would not take it well. Maybe if she sent an email and I could present it to her later when I feel she is ready? But right now I'm not sure if it would do any good, she would probably only feel judged and belittled. If you could keep the option available I would appreciate it.

Finally the root cause of all of this is that she just has too thin of skin. I admit I can be a bear at times but I truly believe I have that under control I am probably about average now as far as "aggressive" behavior. She needs to realize that she will never be able to have any kind of relationship until she develops some capacity for conflict and some self esteem. Self esteem that comes from overcoming adversity not from someone telling you "nice shirt" or "good job on that power point". Coming to this realization has brought me a lot of inner peace, that it was not only me that brought us here, realizing that no matter who she would have married she would have ended up here also.

I have to admit, RCX, that your story doesn't add up.


Let me tell you how this seems over here. Your WW shows and talks wayward. She doesn't have an affair, yet she wants divorce.

You have told us that you have been hostile towards her and you talk about her ... real bad (in fact, I haven't detected anything you admire about her or have admired in the past) - we all know how childish and shallow she is, and yet she is a woman you fell in love with - and like you were forced to marry her or something like that. She is not having an affair. And you seem somewhat casual about snooping, like it is not really a subject at all. I strongly suspect that her "affair" is just a cover-up story to what is really going on.

Have you had an affair yourself and/or treated your wife really bad?

Am I completely wrong?

Sorry little more information
Mrs Recon you asked "- Do you want to have a divorce yourself and why? If she were not that wayward would you like to stay married to her?"

I do not want a divorce but I do not want to be married to HER any more. I want her to grow a back bone and hold me accountable, if I am doing something that bothers her I need her to have the strength to tell me. If there is something wrong in our marriage I want her to take a stand and protect our family by raising the issue, not texting some other guy or running to a lawyers office. I want to be married to the beautiful strong confident woman that she pretends to be during the day, not a scared selfish spoiled child.

Also I have tried to appeal to her selfish side telling her we could build her real dream home and go on vacation several times a year if we stay together. Basically stating that we could live like rock stars if we work things out, she said "its not about any of those things, I just don't want to get hurt any more". She has asked me to not expose my daughter to any women I meet after divorce and said she will do the same. She wants my daughter the majority of the time so she will not even be able to date or live the party life. When she says these things she she does it in a very humble tone (like a protective mother), so I do not think this is fog babble. I honestly think that she is just too weak to be in a real relationship, she just wants to be alone with my daughter.

I'm hoping that her "grasping" at reasons to get a divorce is a sign that she is still torn, and is struggling to convince herself it is the right decision. She has lost a lot of weight and I have noticed she is starting to show signs of hair loss since she has filed, the stress is definitely taking its toll on her.

Mrs Recon,

Not really sure how to respond to that? No I have never had an affair cheating is something I take very seriously. I have not even flirted with another woman since we were engaged. She had a texting "fling" about 2 years ago when our problems reached a breaking point and tried to start another fling about a month ago when she first filed for divorce but this one never went anywhere. Since then I have been monitoring everything possible as much as possible and have not found anything. Yes I am sure she is flirty with every guy she meets, I'm sure she conducts herself in ways that are un-becoming of a wife but what can I do follow her around everywhere she goes? It makes me sick that she has stopped wearing her wedding rings, advertising that she is available now. I have told her that we are still married and until the divorce is final she is still my wife, I would appreciate if she wore her rings until then. She will wear them for a few days and then take them off for a few days.

Yes I admit I have treated my wife poorly in the past, I have made tons of DJs and had many AOs, but never cheated or physically abused her. I have always provided for her and tried to give her the "things" she always wanted but I was not supportive of her like I should have been. I didn't understand what her needs were... I didn't understand what my needs were. I think I treated her poorly mostly because I too was a child and had not learned about POJA or emotional needs or anything like that but I know some hostile actions were to get a "rise" out of my wife, any sort of reaction to show that there was someone alive inside of her as she can be very cold most of the time.

We are both guilty of committing AOs and DJs to each get our way in marriage, we were two married children fighting over toys, I understand that now. But I have grown up and seen the error of my ways, every day I try to demonstrate how I have grown, she has not. I desperately want her to grow up and become the woman she should be.

You ask what I admire about her, I admire her ambition, I admire her eternally positive attitude, I admire how she can go into a room and brighten it with her attitude, I admire her as a mother.

Honestly im not sure if I have ever completely loved her, I think I loved the person she could be but never the person she was. I know this sounds terrible but I am just being honest. I grew up in a family that demonstrated tough love, I have realized that some of my DJs were intended as tough love but I now know that tough love has no place in a marriage.

Have I been the best husband to her....no, if I treated any other woman the way I treated her would they want to file for divorce... probably not. Most likely they would have sat me down and told me "look you are really pissing me off when you do that, please stop". But she has never done this, if something is bothering her she does nothing until it gets so bad she wants to cheat on me or get divorced. I think the issue between us is kind of a perfect storm. I was raised in a family with tough love, compliments were hard to come by, and nothing was stronger than family. She is a very sensitive person, needs constant praise and there is really no family bond.

From her side she is married to an un-appreciative, abrasive husband. From my side I am married to an un-committed shallow immature woman. It has not been good for either of us but since I have found MB I have completely changed my ways. Perhaps it is too late for us, I don't know yet but I have realized that it is not JUST me. I read stories on her about husbands that are serial cheaters and expose their wives to STDs, who come home drunk and beat their wives and children, who gamble away their entire life savings and these women still love their husbands and fight for their marriages! I have never been a monster or terrorist, I also have never been a cuddly teddy bear. Both therapists who we have seen have told me that in a "normal" relationship my actions would not be cause for divorce. They would definitely cause some issues in a marriage but no where near a divorce.

No one here is perfect, I have hit rock bottom and seen the error in my ways. Every day I try to be a better person in every way possible. I am still learning but I am learning fast. I originally posted this thread in the divorcing divorced category but when I found her latest texting I asked to move it here. I have never said that the problems in our marriage are all my wife's fault, but I know they are not all my fault either. If it is too late for my marriage then it is too late, I can say I did my best to save it. But it is especially frustrating when my wife says she wants to end it because she has been fighting so hard to keep us together for the past two years. All she did was to to therapy and sit there telling me how my emotional needs were "stupid" and "its not important to me so it shouldn't be important to you" or "you married the wrong woman if that's what you want".

Again I fight because of the woman my wife could be, not the woman she is. I fear that I have never created a nurturing environment for her to mature in, I have never set a good example to inspire her. Honestly we should have never gotten married, we were both too immature but that is water under the bridge. I am trying to rebuild what could have been with a solid foundation. All I want is for her to come look at the footings and say "hmmm these look better than the original ones, maybe this will be stronger"

Just a couple observations RCX. The married children idea indicates to me that the LB most likely is SD. Usually you get AO's, and then progressing to DJ's, when you start out with Selfish Demands (instead of respectful requests). I think this is a common feature of today's couples, for whatever reason. I know, in retrospect it was a big part of my marriage. I am just realizing that now (perhaps because in the relationship I'm in there is such a dramatic absence of SD's). SD's, in my case also lead to IB - "if I can't ask for what I want and be sure to get a 'yes', I'll just go ahead and do it." This is how I wound up rendering my wife a baseball widow for many months of the year for a couple years; she really didn't have much of a say in my decision to delve as deeply as I did into that world (coaching, managing, taking my kid to all clinics, being on the board of baseball league, spending all sorts of money on baseball, etc.). So, what I'm getting at is that if you look deeper do you see any propensity for SD's in your marriage? (from both sides).

Then, the question I asked myself, again, after many months into the divorce, was why all the SD/IB's? Why? What was wrong with me/us that I felt I had to just do whatever I wanted without consulting my wife? I came to the conclusion (after hearing one of the radio show discussions), that neither one of us had any real ability to NEGOTIATE. Now, I wa s managing a department at work, have a master's degree, and I know how to deal with people. That however doesn't have anything to do with knowing how to negotiate with my wife. [in my family, growing up, there was IB galore, and I never really saw my parents talk about anything; Father quite overbearing really, but that's just background]

There is an article on this site about how to negotiate successfully with spouse. Hopefully someone can direct you to that (or you can find it). It's really good and worth reading.

I have to say that as much as your ww reminds me of mine a couple years ago, you also remind me of me in your thinking. Especially the last couple of posts. I had the great faith in my spouse that she would gradually mature, like a good wine or something. Probably unfair, but I truly believe that people can become what is ideal for them and for their family. However, I also have now come to realize that, as I said a few weeks ago, as long as you can negotiate to have a spouse who provides you with your most important EN's (especially the 4 intimate EN's), you can be in love. So, this approach essentially negates all the tendencies of someone to be "selfish, shallow, self-centered"; IF they subscribe to the philosophy that it's a partnership of meeting each other's EN's (so that I can get MINE met too...)

The whole thing takes on monumental importance because there are innocent kids involved.

I have little time, and so many other observations for you latest posts, but I have to leave you with this:
I work with people who are in their late 60's to 90's. Many of them are married 50 years. Many of them seem to be in love like they just met. I wonder how that happens. Then I think, they had to have some tough times. Had to. It's inevitable. But they didn't have the option of divorce (it wasn't vogue until the 70's right?). I wonder if people in our generation just don't have the patience to weather the storms. I hope you do. I hope your wife does. I hope you can look back in 20 years and say "I'm glad we stuck it out and took the time to learn about MB concepts"

I was glad you are willing to give it some months. You are true man of character and will build more in that time. With some luck and perseverance, I believe your ww will come to see things, gradually, in a different way.

opt

Is this the one you're talking about?
Four Guidelines to Successful Negotiation

I would agree that it all started with SDs mine was for SF and when she would tell me something like "were married now you shouldn't need it as much" or "I don't need it as much as you so its not my problem" it would cause me to have AOs or DJs.

Her SDs were for a new house or wanting another child. When she told me we should try to conceive a child 2 weeks after the first time she called a lawyer to file for divorce I said something like "WHAT you cant be serious, last week you wanted a divorce and now you want another baby"! In hindsight I should have handled it better but really 10 days ago you were sure you didn't want to spend another day with me and now you want to grow our family???? As for the house I entertained that idea, we went to look at houses and property and even found a house plan we both liked but could never find property we both agreed to. Since I didn't give in to her and build in an area that I wasn't comfortable about she felt that I was not respecting her wishes so she now says this was mental abuse. After a few months passed we found out that my suspicions about the location were true and she even said "well its a good thing we didn't build there" however today she still tells me every time we talk that "you wouldn't build where I wanted to, you never respect what I want in life".

I completely agree with the difference between today's couples and those of our parents. That generation had the mindset that you fix things not throw them away.

I try every day to use the tools I have learned here. I am loosing faith that my marriage can be saved but I gain strength on my own knowing that I am becoming a better man.

RCX, thanks for your long answers.

Here's what Dr Harley says about why women leave men - Here

RCX, you have two really good articles to take a look at.

We appreciate you answering our questions. The good thing about this board/site is that there is a lot of support for those willing to do the work to go along with it. You seem to have it in you to say it like it is, and to hear it directly. That will go a long way for you.

I didn't know you had actually gotten in touch with the IT dept. That leaves the possibility that she has something going with someone really high up (or someone in the IT dept itself). For now, it seems like you're doing what you can and focussing on the right things. I believe that with the affairs, they tend to screw up eventually, say the wrong thing at the wrong time, or leave their affair phone out in the open; stuff like that. Just stay vigilent I would say.

Hey, rcx, I thought your wife was like my exww until I read this:

-Now it's just uncanny. I got to the point where I actually thought I was a total freak because I wanted to have intimacy more than 3x/year. Talk about emotional abuse. I think she actually has a sexual problem and I don't know that your ww is to that degree, but I got a chill when I read those quotes. I also got the old "None of the couples I know have sex..." -just sick stuff, and counselors are clueless...I just get nauseous thinking of that crucial aspect of my 15 year marriage.

SF is an important EN and has to be part of a relationship. Also, your marriage contract is an agreement to meet each other's important EN's. SF has to be handled carefully, because sexual aversions can develop. But the responses above constitute refusal to even try or to negotiate meeting EN's and need to be looked at seriously -- possibly leading to Plan B. Before MB I just didn't understand any of it. MB puts it all in clear terms. There are articles here on this subject as well -- I would definitenly recommend them.

I hope you can check out the Radio Show. These topics come up from time to time, Dr. Harley's approach (and hearing him voice them outright) is very powerful and eye-opening insight.

To clarify - were you in contact with Joyce about getting on the show? I think you have an interesting case -- mentioning Steve's theory of the 'fantasy' world waywardism is something I have NOT heard on the show, so might be something they'd like to talk about.

opt

This is another reason I make the observation about possible lack in negotiation skills. It's a killer in marriage because it constitutes major $LB withdrawals. After a while one has lost love for the other, not even knowing why perhaps and the offender never realized they were doing anything wrong. For me for instance it was the AO's- I would get better and reduce the frequency, but then have one and set the clock back to zero -- eventually she just stopped mentioning it; just like I just stopped mentioning our non-existant sex life. A better way is how Dr. Harley condones "complaining" - of course respectfully. And not "well you should just know" (ugh, that's just a setup for failure; nobody can read minds).

To me this indicates waywardness and not necessarily "fantasy" world (as I think recon said - she is cake-eating - and you're providing the cake), but hey I'm not in the business of saving marriages, I'm just giving my opinion. I can say that there are a lot of waywards who might not be in an active relationship but are "trolling" (as I've heard the term here). Or perhaps simply open to it and "advertising" such. My exww opened up a FB account during her "fantasy" period and put her status as "no relationship." In retrospect, I wish I had "exposed" this. "Hey, MIL, do you know your daughter is advertising herself as single on the internet? -- could you talk to her for me? I believe she is destroying her marriage but I can't have any influence over her. I think she's making a mistake by by considering another relationship before ending her marriage properly -- I think she is setting a very bad example for our kids. Could you talk to her and see if she'd be interested in giving the marriage one more chance? This is for your Grandchildren." -- and then wash rinse, repeat with about 20 other family members. Eventually maybe someone would get through. At the very least it would have made it very uncomfortable for her to conduct her wayward "fantasy" lifestyle.
I would expose the wedding ring thing. I bet a LOT of people who care about you would see this as highly concerning. It's not a hard thing for someone to bring up - "hey mrs rcx, I heard you weren't wearing your wedding ring, what's up?"

opt

Absolutely LOVE the idea!

How are things going, RCX?
~opt

Honestly, not good... we have had a few discussions and things are becoming very clear to me now. Don't have a lot of time right now so I will have to be quick.

I know MrsRecon got on me calling me out for being verbally abusive towards her, and I do not deny that I have said hurtful things to her in the past but what husband has not said negative things to his wife once in a while, I'm not condoning it I'm just saying we are all human. Anyway I know what I have done wrong in the past and have learned from my mistakes.

Anyway many of her friends who have never been close with me have contacted me over the past weeks expressing their sadness for our situation. They said that when my wife told them the reasons for divorce they all told her something like "well I can see how you would be hurt by that... but I really don't think its enough to get divorced over"! When they told her that my wife got furious and said "you are just like him... always judging me... I just want to be free and do whatever I want... I don't want to have to worry about anyone else" Her friends contacted me to essentially let me know that they too have always felt used by my wife in one way or another. They were not saying it was not my fault, but they were saying that they were disappointed in my wife for giving up on her family so easily.

I have also been reading many posts on here and have found so many similarities between other WW and mine. As they say there is nothing unique about a wayward, its the same story just different words. Last weekend she went out with her friend for dinner and she had a few glasses of wine, when she got home she was a little tipsy so I asked her a few questions (booze is the best truth cerium with her, works every time). First I asked if she had cheated on me, she said no... then I asked what she was doing texting the other guy, was she planning to cheat? She said no she didn't want to sleep with him, so I asked "were you going to start dating him" she said no... she didn't want to date anyone, so I asked well then what did you want? She said she didn't really know, she just wanted to feel pretty, she just wanted someone to chase her. I told her "what do you think I have been doing for the past months" she said "you don't count your my husband, I need to be chased by other men"!

I have to go now, I'll finish the story later but the conclusion is that I realized that I have not been a controlling abusive husband but I have been a husband who holds his wife accountable. It just so happens that my wife perceives accountability as hostility and controlling.

RCX, I'm sorry you had to find out that your wayward wife is a wayward wife, not just an anomaly or exception. Common wayward. She has tasted this life a bit and now cannot get rid of it. Im sorry..

Its almost midnight here, not much time to post more, just wanted to offer my support. Maybe this wil help you: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_quit.html

RCX, about a week or two ago you said you had no intention of making any decisions or taking any extreme actions for a few months (I believe). I remember being in that mindset. What happened to me was that for whatever reasons my time frame kept getting shorter and shorter, in a way without me even knowing it. Little things like the quote above "you don't count your my husband, I need to be chased by other men" would shrink my resolve and wear on my patience. Eventually I couldn't take another minute of her behavior. It seemed to happen all at once, but in retrospect I was crumbling by the day.

Perhaps you have more strength than I did. I'm inclined to believe so, for some reason. But I don't think anyone can endure the type of environment you're living in indefinitely. In fact I think most of us are much more confident in our abilities than we should be - we're human and do have our self-worth afterall.

Looking back, the only way I could have averted my falling off the deep end and actually agreeing to the divorce would have been to do what everyone was trying to tell me to do and I just couldn't muster the courage to do: Plan B.

I don't know if it would have saved my marriage. I do know that it would have bought me more time, and gave me a chance to regain/gain some perspective. It's very difficult to think straight when your wife is saying things like the above to you; it's like living with an insane person.

From what I can see, you are in a good position to implement a very good Plan B. Effective would not even begin to describe the benefits to you, your family, your daughter, and those you love if you could get yourself into Plan B. Imagine being able to set the example for your daughter: "we don't spend time around those who intentionally or unintentionally hurt us and refuse to stop. We don't give up on them right away, we make it clear what we expect, we give them a chance...but we remove ourselves from the abuse as a form of self-protection; because WE matter, too."

Things are going to be okay for you, rcx. I know that from reading your posts. The question you have to ask yourself remains the same: How badly do I want to save this marriage and make it better than I ever dreamed it could be, for me, for my child, and for my wife?

It's not an easy decision, and it's also one that can't be rushed. Especially by a lunatic wayward.

opt

RCX, the link I gave you yesterday, talks about unconditional love and what it may create, one of them which is abuse. If you read further then Part 2 says that if that is the case then separation would be in order. I think that these letters help you decide what to do next. MB doesn't propagate marriage at all cost. And at this moment you do not have a marriage anymore, at least not the one that would be fulfilling and protecting.

Your WW needs a serious reality bite and you need to protect yourself and your daughter from her until she sobers up if she ever chooses to. Plan B would be one thing to think about seriously.

Here's what Dr Harley has said about Plan B: What are Plan A and Plan B?.

Here's a Collection of Plan B sample letters.


Here's what one of the seasoned people on MB has written about Plan B. How to Plan B correctly

Should you want support and help from fellow Plan B'ers, then Scotland is one of the toughest one and she can definitely help you, Indiegirl too.

Should you want to entertain yourself a bit then read this - Female wayward fog disassembled....

You will find a way.

RCX,
You're coaching with Steve, correct? When is your next apt with him?

rcx, how was your weekend?
I hope you had a chance to do some reading -- very good links provided by recon above.

I know you have a lot to think about, and I pray for you to continue to have patience as recovery OR divorce can be a long road.

Were you thinking of talking to Steve again? What about calling the radio show?

opt

Remember that ww words are only used as manipulation tools. "hostility and cotrolling" are translated as "that mean ol' husband of mine won't let me go out and act like a reprehensible little hootchymomma, *sniff*, *snizzle*"

Recovered waywards Always thank their spouses for being strong enough to stand up to the abuse and irresponsible behavior. They find that the life they were in was nothing compared to having a spouse willing to defend their family, even against threats from within.

You were going to "finish the story later".....

opt

Hi sorry I haven't been so active here lately, lots going on and lots to think about. I had a great weekend, lots of time with my daughter it was really wonderful. If there is any good that has come out of this mess it is that it has brought me and my daughter closer together.

This weekend was also very good for my wife, she is getting a taste of what it will be like to be divorced. Up until now she has thought my family felt sorry for her and were on her side (because they were still being respectful to her) this weekend it was made very clear that they were not on her side and were quite disappointed in the example she was showing to our daughter by flirting with other men and stating that she didn't care if we were divorced or not she would start dating whenever she felt like it. She then accused me of "making her look bad" to my family for telling them about the above. I asked her "did I lie to them" she said no, so I said well how can I make you look bad if I tell my family who you really are? She got mad and said she could never win with me. Then she went on to say how the second texting fling didn't even count because it never went anywhere... I said "it didn't go anywhere because the other man did not respond, he killed it not you". It didn't go anywhere because of him, and it made you sad that it didn't go anywhere. You saying you are innocent because it didn't go anywhere is the same as someone who loads a gun points to someones head pulls the trigger but because the bullet doesn't fire then claims they are innocent because they didn't actually kill anyone. She told me I was being ridiculous and when will I ever let the past die.

What I was going to say when I finished my story was that I have very clearly been going through the stages of grief/loss/divorce... whatever you want to call it. It has caused me to have mass reflection on myself and my life and who I want to be in the future. I was really concerned that maybe I was an abusive and controlling person, but I thought back to several other long term relationships I had in college and those girls would have never described me that way, this is when I realized that my wife's perception of controlling and abusive is holding her accountable for her actions (I think the above story is a good example of how she dodges accountability). I then thought back to when my wife has ever been held accountable for her actions or decisions in her life and I could only think of a few. This led to many more reflections on our relationship and our history together... its amazing how clear things become when you remove emotion!

About the making any rash decisions I haven't made any yet but I guess you could say that we are two acquaintances sleeping in the same house. Any discussion I have with her is polite but business like, I simply do not and can not trust her. I discussed plan B with my lawyer and he strongly advised not to, the county I live in (and the judge assigned to our case) are extremely pro female in divorce cases and it would be disastrous to my custody case if I left the house. There have been cases where moms who were convicted drug addicts were awarded full custody of the children because the father tried to keep the children from seeing their their junkie mothers all strung out, the court said the father was depriving the children of motherly love (what have we created in our court system today)!!!

In summary the status of our marriage is that it is DEAD. Most days I have almost no feelings towards her, I don't hate her but I certainly do not have any positive feelings towards her, I respect her as the mother of my daughter and as a human but not so much more. When she talks about her feelings towards me she says she thinks of me like I am one of her best friends? As for me I would not describe her even as a friend, I like to be around my friends... I trust my friends... I feel comfortable around my friends. Also last week I got really sad on Thursday when I realized that it will take me a LONG time to trust another woman. I talked to my family about this and they all said they thought it is exactly how I should feel given my situation. They said they would be worried if I just went out and found a new girlfriend right away without healing myself first. My wife on the other hand has no worries about meeting a new man, no fears he will "mentally abuse" her like I did for so many years. She is excited to date new people and have them chase her. The thing I take away from this is that I have not "hurt" her as much as she says, if I had she would be very gun shy of men like I am of women right now.

I'll let you know how it goes over the next few days, her fantasy "snow globe scene" of a divorce is developing massive cracks lately. She cant build or buy a house up to her standards, no boyfriend in waiting, she knows I have told our families about her texting, and I have been having a great life with my daughter without her. Plus any discussion we have is free of SDs or AOs. It has to be sinking in that the life she is leaving is so much better than the life she will live. But as of now the burden is on her to win me back, she will have to earn my trust and that will not come easily.

You have to read more about Plan B. You will not leave the house and abandon your child. She will leave. You pack her belongings, write a plan B letter, put it with her belongings and let her know where she can pick them. Then you change the locks and contact information and go dark NC with your WW.

Here's an excellent thread - your situation being a bit different, but basically still the same because you are dealing with a WW - Men, do not leave your home

That's scary. I also think some of these stories tend to get exaggerated. Especially by lawyers. They like the drama, I believe. It's good for business.
[*IA with recon: you don't have a full understanding of Plan B]

As long as we're on the subject however, I wanted to mention something you said a while back about going for 40/60 custody. This is not good enough, my friend. You are the one to be setting the example for your daughter, most, if not ALL the time. Start with 60/40 at least.

You say things like that you're impressed with her mothering abilities. Her mothering abilities are NOT impressive. She is selfish and inconsiderate. This is not good mothering. She's ready to abandon her family. There's nothing motherly about that. No wayward, fogged-out person is a good mother.

Your daugter needs you, RCX. She needs to see what integrity looks like. Don't acquiesce to your WW and deprive your DD of that opportunity; right?

I'm glad you are not giving her a picture of the fantasy divorce. I'm glad her world is not rosy and that she is uncomfortable. Good for your family to be holding her accountable. She will either "get it" or not. Either way, you have reinforced some very important boundaries. That is how to set a good example for your child.

Oh, and did you say you were off the anti-anxiety meds? I'm no pshychiatrist, but you do have them for a reason, so consider utilizing them in this time of tremendous stress. I have heard Dr. Harley advocate the use of meds for the BS many times; just to get through and help you see clearly since the emotions can totally take over and promote irrational decisions.

opt

Yes you're correct Dr. Harley does.

thanks BH. johnny on the spot!
very helpful.

opt

Thank YOU fellow MB warrior!

I just remembered. This stuck out to me. It appears your love bank is either empty or close to it. This is another indicator that Plan B would be an effective way to protect yourself and perhaps give the marriage one more glimmering chance. Consider this for your daughter and the long term goal.

opt

Hey RCX. What's up?
I hope you're okay.
opt

Hello again,

Well the divorce is coming along nicely, I have realized that this is the best thing for us. There is no way she will ever be trustworthy to me and without trust there can be no relationship. She has too many character flaws and has no interest in improving upon them. She is not even interested in a relationship just someone to "talk to me nicely, who accepts me for who I am"... A cheating floozy is who she is!!

So anyway things have been pleasant between us up until this weekend. She wanted to go on a trip with a friend from work... well I had suspicion about this and after a little snooping the truth came out. She went on the trip with a man and a group of people. No one on the trip thinks there was any sex (some of them didn't realize she was still married) but it doesn't matter to me at this point she is dead to me.

My only question is that I told her if she pulls any funny business during the divorce that I will expose her to everyone she and he knows. Should I expose them anyway? I want the divorce so it is no use breaking up the affair, but should I expose anyway or is it just being nasty at this point. Would it serve as a good example to my 4yo daughter to show her this is what happens to skanks or would it make me look like a nasty person?

She has really screwed me up... it will take a LONG time for me to be able to trust another woman. Is there any thing I can do to help with the resentment?

I would expose it in a heartbeat. Don't do it nasty, just say the truth.

I'm sorry for that.

What exactly your snooping has revealed? Is this the man she is having an affair with?

If those people are all friends then they watch carefully that the truth won't come out. So, I would expose. Don't just threaten to expose, do it. When she is having an affair then you should expose immediately. The idea of exposure is to reveal the truth and share information, and that you won't tolerate and enable this affair.

Plan B would help. Not seeing her every day would help you quite a bit. There are many people here who have started plan B their waywards and are continuing it during the divorce time and beyond.

I would expose. I exposed in Plan B after months of the A going on and being separated from WH, and am glad I did. It has helped with my recovery in the long-term, as I wanted to speak the truth. Actually, I think I needed to speak the truth. Regardless of the effect on the A.

Also, Plan B will help with the resentment. I still have moments of it, usually because there has been a crack in my Plan B with indirect contact. Sometimes I still feel the hurt of what the wayward did to me, but it is more about the traumatic effect on me by their actions than about him and OW.

Most importantly, Plan B allows you to see the wayward for who they are, and to realise your life is better off without them. To build a life without the toxicity of a wayward. To even the roller coaster out, to allow you to think about you rather than about them.

Err, maybe you shouldn't read my last post on my thread as I have just hit a bump in the coaster. Despite this, IRL everyone who knows me has noticed a difference since I exposed and stayed in Plan B. I am healing.

Should I expose them anyway? I want the divorce so it is no use breaking up the affair, but should I expose anyway or is it just being nasty at this point.

Is there any thing I can do to help with the resentment?

How often can we satisfy two questions with one answer?

Yes, expose. There will be fallout from the divorce. Would you prefer that the mindless drones of the world uncritically accept her version of events ("..he was abusive...", "..we grew apart..", "..I felt smothered...") or your truth?

Yes, expose. You will have the satisfaction of knowing you were honest enough to identify the malignancy, even if you could not defeat it.

RCX,

Since your exposure will dampen her enthusiasm for affairs and bringing strange men into contact with your daughter, EXPOSE NOW and EXPOSE MASSIVELY.

God Bless
Gamma

Exposure isn't "nasty". It's the truth! If she's got nothing to be ashamed of, then why would it be "nasty"?

She's being unfaithful to the marriage. It's important to you and your life, and the people who are important to yo that people understand where you're at.

Whether it's "physical" or not has nothing to do with it. She's acting like a teenager in heat. Spending time with a bunch of singles is not motherly or behavior becoming of a spouse. It's hurtful, inconsiderate, selfish, and disgusting.

Shame of it is that she might just figure that out someday, but it sounds like it will be too late. She will have already destroyed her marriage to Father of her daughter, and possibly lost her daughter's respect in the process.

A big exposure is important in so many ways. You would be doing everyone in your life and in hers a disservice to not let them in on the facts -- wouldn't they have liked an opportunity to talk to her about her actions before it was too late?

Read up on how Dr. Harley recommends exposure to kids of certain ages. 4-5 "Mommy is breaking the rules of marriage" I believe is about how it goes.

You can't think straight when your wife is actively cheating on you. You can't think straight when your wife is actively searching for a landing pad for herself after the divorce. Plan B is the only way to do this and make rational decisions.

I'm sorry and sick about all this for you and your daughter rcx. There's hope still, but it's a narrow road and you've been knocked way off course.

Opt

A radio clip from Dr. Harley telling children even as young as 4.

The Harley's discuss telling the children even as young as 4 about the affair

When we talked about it she said what she did was fine since our marriage is already over, I told her "well if its fine lets just call your parents and explain to them" she freaked out and said "you will ruin me if you tell anyone" I simply told her "your actions are what is ruining you, I will just be telling people who you really are, they deserve the truth".

This morning I told her I would not accept anything less than 50% custody, she told me she had hoped things would not get nasty between us. I told her they do not have to get nasty unless she pushes it there, and if anyone asks me why I am getting nasty with you I will simply say that you are not a good role model for our daughter and I need to be a bigger part of her life. She asked if I would tell people what she did and I said yes if they ask, she started balling and threw up several times. We will see what tonight brings.

The thing that pisses me off the most is that she chose her affair partner over her daughter... but I guess she is just a standard wayward.

I have told her to find a new place to live by the end of the week. I said I had almost no respect left for her and if we were to remain on speaking terms I could not know anything that she was doing.

As for plan B I have stated that she needs to be out within a week, but that will not change how I feel about her. I clearly see who she really is, all this time when she said I was "controlling" her all I was doing was holding her accountable. When she told me it did not get physical this weekend I told her I was not hurt by what she did, that it is what I have come to expect from her. But I did say that if she got physical with him before the divorce was final I would be hurt and if anyone ever asked I would tell them the truth including our daughter. She asked what she could do and I said "don't have any sexual contact with him until the divorce is final" (I know its stupid but I kind of wanted to see what she would say) and sure enough she said "OK fine nice that you are still trying to control me"!! WTF telling your wife to act like a wife and mother is controlling?????

She is simply a bad person, she has done a pretty good job of pretending to be a good person but I could always see through her.

...if I would tell people what she did and I said yes if they ask...

So you ask us here if you should expose, get four solid affirmative answers, and basically tell us, "Thanx for nothing...."

...I have told her to find a new place to live by the end of the week...
with the following negative consequences if she predictably ignores the suggestion......?

You seem to have confused this site, with it's program, advice, and easily implementable steps, with an "Oh, Woe is Me!" blog.

RCX,

One of the more Subtle, but compelling reasons for exposure is that the betrayed spouse no longer has to lie to anyone, or hand out cute stories about why they broke up, or feel guilty.

There is no reason you should have to cover up for your WW, lying is for waywards and you are not the wayward. What your WW is telling you BTW is that exposure WILL be effective, DO IT NOW and without warning!

God Bless
Gamma

RCX,

Please read NG's advice again.

You need to expose this affair. Your WW's wife concern about her parents is exactly why this needs to be exposed.

When you go to D she will spin the story about how "horrible" and maybe even abusive you were.

Shine the light on the truth, but you've already decided that you know what's best for your situation.

Exposure is inevitable because you'll have to tell people the truth about why are you having a divorce at the first place. Nobody will by the crap about "insurmountable differences" and everybody knows that there is more behind it and usually it is someone's wayturdness.

She will be in your daughter's life forever and you are also responsible what kind of a mother she has. Exposure may shake her out of this mindset and may give her a good chance to become a decent person if she chooses to. If you don't expose it is your daughter who will have to deal with the concequences. Think about it.

By not exposing and just arguing about exposure or threatening to expose is actually enabling her waywardness. You have been here long enough to know this. Read this Exposure 101 - Your Most Powerful Weapon

RCX,
You have gone through a lot of changes with all this. The experience seems to have changed the way you look at yourself and you have made positive modifications in your behavior in response to the horrible assaults to your marriage and to your existence.

However, this program is like a lot of other programs. It works to the EXTENT that you implement it. Some parts are easy to understand and implement, some parts are hard to understand and imlement.

Your success is commensurate with the amount of effort you put into learning about the hows and whys of the procedures outlined on these pages. The procedures are no longer based on theory, they are fact, having been implemented hundreds and thousands of times by folks like us.

It's also never too late. There is, in my experience, not a defined day when all hope is lost in a marriage, (except once one of you gets remarried - which I hope you understand is a long ways off.)

In looking at your situation, it reminds me so much of my own. I acknowledge there are parts of the program that I could not implement; due to misunderstanding, incomplete research, and/or plain old cowardice. With 2 years of hind site, I can say that the aspects of the divorce that I still struggle with are exactly the areas where I didn't have the follow through with the program (or got impatient).

I believe I also went off AD's too early. They are really crucial to clear thinking until the Affair is over, or until you are away from the onslaught.

As I said yesterday, you can't think clearly when your wife is beligerently beating you senseless emotionally. It's no time to be making decisions that will affect you and your child for the rest of your life: better to remove yourself from the situation (or remove the situation from you) and give yourself time to think this through in a more rational environment. (Plan B)

opt

Somehow my last posts came across wrong, I was not saying I would not expose her I was merely explaining the conversation we had earlier, and her reaction to it so I apologize for the miss communication. In hindsight I should have included my exposure plan with my previous posts.

Last night when I got home she broke down and said she realized that she has ruined so many lives with her reckless behavior. Unfortunately she was referring to her affair partner's life and not the life of our daughter or the two of us. When she said this it pissed me off and I immediately called her family and exposed her while she was there (I was going to wait until she had gone to bed to be in privacy but I needed to get it over with now). She didn't try to stop me and she talked with her family after I was finished. I was respectful and honest to them during the exposure unfortunately her family was not so respectful... to her. They flipped out and verbally bashed her, it was not pretty. I had already exposed to my side of the family and our close friends earlier in the day, again being respectful and honest. I believe that this has cleared some of the fog but not all of it as I can still see some signs.

As of this morning she is more humble and somber than I have ever seen her. She is now starting to look at herself from the outside in, but she still says some things that make me feel this is really not rock bottom, I guess only time will tell. She clearly sees that her whole world is collapsing in front of her eyes. She is loosing half of her child, her husband, her house, her family has all but abandon her (this is sad but typical of her family, they are all sort of renters), many of her friends have contacted her expressing their feelings about her behavior and after the exposure her affair partner will not even look at her (he is a local business man). After divorce she will have nothing but half of our daughter and a dining room table. Exposure is a very strange feeling, I felt bad doing it like I was being nasty... but looking back I was respectful and professional in how I did it and now I feel like a bigger more complete person for taking the high road and doing the right thing.

This morning she came to me and said she needs to move out and just be alone and heal. She said she wants to get into counselling and figure out why she keeps making stupid emotional decisions. She asked me what I would need from her to start building trust between us, she says she will do whatever it takes to earn my trust back. Again I am hopeful for her but some things seem a little foggy still. I will try to post as often as possible.

Put every impediment you can think of in the way of her moving out, but do so without appearing to do so. (Good trick, I know.) She is wounded and bleeding right now. She will struggle to find a way to heal and recover. You want that to be at home.

I explained this to LFH earlier. The stories here demonstrate that the odds of a moved-out WW ever returning to the marriage are pathetically small. Prevent that at all costs. Cut off her funds, refuse to sign leases, (surreptitiously) disable her vehicle - get creative.

Coming out of the fog just takes some time.

NC has to be established and affair phones, e-mails etc shut down. Does this OM have wife? You should expose the affair to her, too. She needs to know about this.

Good job on exposure!

okeydokey. Dr. Harley writes that separation and Plan B is risky, but the odds of surviving an affair are already low; especially when plans aren't followed with dedication and understanding. Being in a relationship with someone who is having an affair is extremely stressful and painful; leading to irrational decisions based on emotion instead of clear thinking.

My understanding is that MB logic would not advocate encouraging a spouse to move out, but that preventing it at all costs would actually be "controlling." Doing so in a sneaky way is simply dishonest and violates multiple principles not the least of which is personal integrity. What's wrong with being up front: "I'm not supporting you moving out - I believe in our marriage and our family, if you want to leave that's something you'll have to do without my blessing or guidance, or money, or assistance."

I agree with NG, I just don't believe that MB advocates dishonesty in the approach, nor do I think it's necessary.

opt

You can't control others' behaviors. But it's only fair to ask them for assistance with this very difficult situation. How they choose to administer that guidance to your ww is up to them. Regardless, the lights go on in the crack house each time someone asks her "how could you do this?"

She's liable to threaten and pour out hatred and go through all that; it's typical and I hope you are ready for it. Just keep your head about you that you are fighting for your marriage. It's going to take time, she will have a long period of withdrawal even if OM falls off the face of the earth.

"Exposure" needs to continue with the OM's wife. It's essential, and the duty of the BS as a human being. If the situation were reversed, you would want the OMs wife to inform you of your wife's infidelity. It's only fair to her. She may have information for you also that could be critical in continuing to kill the affair.

opt

Being alone for a wayward is code for continuing to be wayward without interruption or knowledge of those who love them. Please don't fall for this; she is wayward and dishonest. They all say this. Counselling should only be with the Harleys as they are the only ones who you can be sure understand infidelity. Otherwise she is just buying time until she can sneak back into her waywardness whilst she has your "trust."

I hope you understand what "trust" does to a marriage by now, RCX. Trust has to be earned daily and really has no place in a marriage. EVERYBODY cheats given the right circimstances (they would be different for each person). And NOBODY cheats given other circumstances. The approach is to understand what circumstances those are, and not allow yourself or your spouse to be in those dangerous places (like a camping trip with all singles). And to be accountable to each other at all times -- with openness and honesty.

In your situation, you now have a right to request Extreme Precautions. And there is the answer to her question. "you will allow me full access to your life at all times, with honesty and openness, and NEVER be alone with someone from the opposite sex, etc. etc. etc"

See, she is playing with words right now. It's all a game to her, but you need actions. Consistent and sure-fire actions. Real committment to the marriage. Otherwise it's false recovery time and you're going through this all over again in a few years.

No Contact is crucial and would be at the top of the list. If that means quitting her job, then that's number 2 on the list. If she's serious about the above text in red, she'll be drafting her resignation letter tonight. Her job environment is toxic to your marriage if I may be so bold to say so. Unless she quits it, I believe you have 0 chance at recovering your marriage for any length of time. Maybe some day she goes back to it with a new attitude, but recovery will be very difficult for her with the immaturity that seems to pervade in that workplace.

opt

I believe Steve even agreed, based on information you gave him that your wife was possibly NOT wayward. This is why it's going to be so important for you to require full accountability from your WW. She was wayward at the time the above was written (perhaps not in a relationship, but trolling, shopping, setting things up) and it got by you, your counsellor; even got by the best in the business.

I wouldn't believe a word she says right now. Only believe actions.

opt

Rcx,

Here's a link to Extraordinary Precautions. Right now you should press on the category 1. These are the first steps. Then move on to category 2.

You'll get to know quite soon whether she is serious in what she says, because this list requires ACTION.

She is not at all serious about earning my trust back, this morning she came into my room and told me how much I have hurt her and how controlling I have been lately. When I asked how I was being controlling she said "like when you approached OM and told him to stay away from me, do you know how embarrassing that is"? She said "I cant even go to the gym any more because you have embarrassed me so much", I asked "well would you be embarrassing if you never went camping with him" and she said "I had to go to get away from you, you made me do it". I asked if she realized how embarrassing and hurtful it is for me to know my wife is going off with another man for a weekend, did she know how embarrassing it is for our daughter to know what her mom who is still married to her dad is doing in secret? Then she got mad and said "see I can still never win with you, you will always remind me of the past"..... she will never change, she will never see what she is doing, she will always make emotional decisions.

The OM is not married and doesn't even have a girlfriend, when I talked to him he told me that my wife said our divorce would be final this week, he apologized and said if he knew the truth he would have never even talked to her. He said she did call him and tell him they could never meet again and he told her "your damn right we will never meet again, your not worth loosing my life over". I told him I appreciated his honesty but asked him "if she said it would be final in a week you should have told her "ok bring me the papers in a week", he agreed and apologized again, and he insisted that there was no sexual activity and stated again that he will never see her again, he was willing to take a lie detector to prove it, this guy was legitimately terrified of me.

I just don't think there is any hope for my wife, her renter mentality is too ingrained into her personality. Also she is very weak emotionally, she gets nervous and feels threatened around people if they are not laughing and constantly smiling. Basically she needs to live in Disney World because she can not handle real life with real/healthy conflict and issues. This has been in an issue for other aspects of her life in the past as well, she has requested to change jobs because she didn't get enough compliments in her position or she had to work with someone who was "didn't smile enough".... no really this is a true story. She also needs constant admiration but it looses its effectiveness over time so even if I constantly give her as much as I can it wont mean anything like when she told me "you don't count, your my husband". She needs admiration from new fresh men all the time. And when I tell her that her relationship with these other men is inappropriate and offensive to me she says I am controlling and insecure. This fact of our marriage is not due to fog, it has been this way for a long time.

As much as I want to keep my family together im starting to wonder if it may be better for my daughter to see the clear contrast between me and my wife. I need time to think.

She is FOGGY, she is still under the influence. You are taking her words as if she were a sane person, but she is not. She is very much a wayward and her whole mindset is influenced by this.

Now - have you told your daughter about this? What her mommy's been up to? Read the exposue 101 thread and there is also a section on how to tell children.

Just so you know, you may feel these to be facts, but they are none-the-less disrespectful judgements. You seem to be on the brink of a big decision to check out of the marriage; these statements are your justification for doing so. That's what DJ's do, they help us rationalize our negative behavior. I should know, I did the same thing. In retrospect I wish I hadn't. They weren't necessary. My wife was literally driving the marriage over a cliff and there wasn't much I could have done about it. I could have maintained my own integrity by standing up for myself and my family (through continued exposure, continued not tolerating her infidelity, continued eliminating my own LB's) and I would STILL have wound up divorced; which is probably what I wanted deep down. I could have tried to lead by example, and she still would have "followed her heart" and divorced me; like your wife, she had made up her mind and was not about to be drawn off track by me or some hokey internet website philosophy (she even was in cahoots with our Marriage counsellor who compared MB to Dionetics, without reading one word of what MB had to offer).

Recon is so right, though. You are listening to an insane person. Take it for what it is. The more you try to argue with her backwards logic, the more you will make yourself crazy. Stick with the facts and the information you have here.
Fight for you marriage and your baby girl. Continue to give the good fight and maintain your own upright posture. I wish I had done more of that; various things wouldn't haunt me so much now. Be honest about your feelings on divorce and that you want to have a great marriage and that you believe it is possible with her if she would join you in your efforts with marriage builders. in the meantime you will not entertain any fantasy divorce plans she might have, nor will you tolerate further abuse in the form of disgusting behaviors like adultery. You made a commitment when you said your vows and nothing in that commitment said you would tolerate her degrading your and undermining your worth in this world. If she wants to behave like a scumbucket, it will have to be on her time AFTER she has pursued and acquired the divorce. Until then, you're standing for your marriage.

opt

Don't be so sure. People risk life and limb literally for their affairs. They are just as dishonest as your wife is right now. They are truly the lowest form of human life on the planet.
All I hear in the above is "I have to get this guy off my trail so I can keep banging his wife"

Yes I have told her, i'll keep waiting for the fog to clear.

RCX,

you can help your wife to defog. For starters look at this section of Dr Harley's materials: Steps to Recover from an affair

Order the book "Surviving an Affair" by Dr Harley immediately.

Please read the extraordinary precautions' thread I posted you couple of posts ago and press on category 1 items. She needs to go NC with this man + this bunch of friends and plug the holes that led her to have an affair.

She is not that unique of a wayward, all waywards ARE childish, immature, waiting for some sort of epiphany, very egoistic, etc. The rules how to deal with them are also quite the same.