This is ALL good in my view.
You've come to the conclusion that you could have a better marriage than you ever thought possible. You've also recognized that it doesn't just come naturally.

This was illustrated in another post and I drew a parallel to everything else. The statement was from a crazy wayward (much like my exWW used to say), "a good marriage should just come naturally if 2 people are meant to be together"....blah,blah,blah; they are in fantasy mode with their AP's usually. The parallel is, well, let's see it would be nice if financial well-being just came naturally too, but it doesn't. How about physical health? How about a good golf swing, or the ability to play the piano, or crafting a good wine? It would be nice if everything came natural without having to put some effort into it.

The real good news is you've adopted a policy that actually works. The "effort" of meeting EN's, eliminating LB's, and using POJA (#1 rule), and minimum UA time (#2 rule) create conditions where two human beings continue to be in love with each other.

She's learning that she can trust you RCX, and that she can count on you to be there for her. She's learning she can be safe with you. That's a great foundation.

Next step is going to be selling her on the proposition that in order to fully recover so that things don't revert back to pre-affair state, both of you will need to have a new plan. If you both lost 50 pounds then said "we're all set, where's the ice cream" then you'd be right back where you started. But I don't think there is an urgency to get the principles out on the table, you're making progress now, I say stay this course for some time. YOU need to always have a plan for now. So what's ahead?

Do you have any trips coming up?
What's on the schedule for the weekend?
How much UA time can you get in?
Are you meeting her EN's -- and is she meeting any of yours- perhaps without knowing it?

Just a few thoughts.

opt

Nothing really new to report, she has been pleasant to be around and she is treating me the way she likes to be treated so I guess she is making LB deposits to me (unfortunately the currency is totally wrong). I was flirting with her quite a bit this morning, she seemed to like it and played along.

I guess for now as long as things don't get worse I should assume they are getting better... Its a very long marathon right?

During my plan A I have been spending a lot of my time cooking, cleaning, and doing other jobs around the house. At night I try to spend as much time with my wife as possible talking, I have been asking her about stories from her youth and also talking about funny things my daughter has done (trying to recall the good memories) Anyway I really have not been doing much for myself other than work out after she goes to bed. I'm wondering if this is causing her to loose respect for me? I have not been mopy or depressed at all but I have not been the dominant take charge guy she fell in love with. I'm wondering how I can show her that I will be fine without her and I am not a feeble guy.

As I have mentioned she has been steadily looking at houses and property but seemingly not working on the divorce. I take this as a good thing since she has always looked at properties and houses as kind of a hobby, and hopefully not working towards the divorce means we are in a "holding pattern". I was wondering if it would send a good message if I started looking at houses for me while continuing my plan A? Like saying "I will continue to be this person that I have become weather you are with me or not". Let her know that she doesn't hold all the cards, that I will be fine without her yet that is not my first choice? Her property search is all over the place, looking at lots that are not build able... too expensive... too far from good schools... nothing realistic. If I found a suitable house near good schools and put an offer in on it I think that would let her know that im not her little lap dog waiting for her to take me back, that I will have a great life with or without her.

Of course I would continue my plan A and I would let her know what I was doing so it wouldn't be IB but just show that I to am preparing for life without her.

What do you think, should I try to break the stalemate or keep up what I am doing for a few more weeks??

Why not look at houses together? LB deposits and UA time?

Steve keeps telling you to stay on track, correct?

It is working, correct?

Is your taker coming out?

Why would you working out cause her to lose respect for you? You're looking good for her? Why not workout together?

To me you're doing a great job. Remember marathon not a sprint.

I wouldn't say my taker is coming out because I'm not concerned about my needs, but I'm starting to get frustrated with this situation. She is not in an actual affair with any real person (as Steve said she is most likely in a fantasy world imagining a different life), I don't beat her, I'm not an alcoholic, I don't gamble, I am very attractive, I make a very good income, we live in the house that she designed (her dream house). All that I am guilty of was making some DJs about her job and not being around for a few weeks. This is nothing to get divorced over, this is an immature little girl throwing a fit because she didn't get everything she ever wanted at her sweet 16 birthday party!!!

She is not at all considering what she is destroying, the emotional and financial damage she is creating (yes I know, if I would have done a better job of meeting her needs we might not be in this situation). She is a little unhappy at the moment so she is making rash decisions that will effect us and our daughter for the rest of our lives. She is a text book renter, her mother is the same way. The only reason they are still married is that her father is more than happy to be the full time maintenance man tending for their marriage.

When ever I talk about how this event has changed me and how before I was doing things because I thought that is what I was supposed to do, but now I'm doing things because I understand how the will help or hurt our marriage she always just says "well you should have figured this out months ago" or she will make some business reference to me like I'm a supplier to her or something. In our last counseling session she again was unwilling to see how she could have any part in the breakdown of our marriage, in her eyes she is the prototype person, perfect in every way.

Sorry for the rant but I needed to get that off my chest, I love my wife but I hate when she acts like a spoiled brat. I want desperately for her to become a buyer and do what it takes to maintain a happy safe marriage but I fear that will never happen. She is basically a renter in every aspect of her life, everything including her direct family is disposable to her if they don't serve a need to her any more. She is always on the look out for something newer, and better.

I know, I know, this post is full of DJs towards my wife... but I am just looking for the subtlest clue that she is willing to consider becoming a buyer.

This is from Dr. Harley's Giver and Taker Article here The Giver and Taker

RCX you're doing a good job. This is a very painful situation.

When is your next session with Steve H? Have you asked him about you thinking she has "the electric fence" personality and how to deal with that?

What has Steve told you about her being a renter?
Steve doesn't think she is still involved in the affair anymore so he keeps telling you to keep your head down and keep going? Correct?

RCX, I will disregard your very last post and try to answer this one.


Keep it up. I can see that you are worried about being a doormat or something. This feeling can be avoided when you don't act like one. You calmly but firmly talk about your feelings and practise radical honesty, too. Plan A is becoming a better man, sort of practising and showing to your WS what's it going to be like if she chooses to stay married to you. If you choose not to speak your mind you will give her wrong impression. That you take HER unconditionally while she can take YOU for granted.

Here's also a quote from Carrot and Stick of Plan A thread that might cheer you up:

Mrs Recon,

Thank you so much for that, reading that woman's story brought tears to my eyes and filled me with inspiration. There is so much in there that relates to my life.

Some quotes that really gave me inspiration and reassurance were:

Plan A'ers are not like doormats to wipe your feet upon and to mis-use .... more like a *welcome home* sign... if both persons choose to re-inter the marriage!

So far I have not been a doormat to her but I am scared of being perceived as one. Reading this reassured me that I am not her doormat but more like her light house guiding her to the safe harbor of our marriage should she choose to to come home. I know when I am being taken advantage of and I can choose to politely and respectfully draw the line there.

And, asking this question to the *fogged-in* infidel is pointless. They got INTO the affair because they were lost to themselves, and went searching for a new self .... and, INSTEAD of differentiating themselves ... they fused identity to yet another relationship ... actually moving away from a healthy differentiated view of their self-worth ----> I am wonderful because my affair partner thinks so.

This is so true, but in her case it was "I am wonderful because someone at work complimented me more than my husband" or "I am important because the girls at the gym admire me more than my husband". I need to be her inspiration and be a model of "Im important because I think I am" or "I am a good person because I am proud of myself" (...or something like that). Show her that self worth and happiness comes from your family and your self not a new house or a new pair of shoes or some random stranger at the gym. I once read an article that was comparing marriage to two broken bottles. The story goes that there were two broken bottles that were no good as a vessel on their own, however luckily when they were put together the shards fit just right that the two bottles together could hold water. This worked fine until one of the bottles changed ever so slightly, then the two bottles no longer fit and could not hold water. Two broken people are no good in a marriage over time, it takes two "healthy on their own" people to make a marriage grow over time.


Yesterday afternoon we talked a bit, my behavior came up and she said something like "I am very proud of what you are trying to do but I know it will change back and I don't want to be here when that day comes, so my mind is still made up, we are getting divorced". I explained that my behavior will not change because the changes I have made are based on a belief system change not an attitude adjustment. I told her the changes were not for her but were for me and our daughter who needs a good male figure in her life. She said something like "well what ever we are still getting a divorce, I will never be able trust you and I just deserve to be happy". She was starting to get a little angry and hostile so I just told her I agreed that she does deserve to be happy, I gave her a smile and kiss on the forehead and left her alone. A few minutes she came over to me and gave me a little smile and started to flirt, so I flirted back and we ended up in a "play fight" wrestling on the living room floor. My daughter came over to see what the fuss was about so we stopped but then she still sat on my lap for a few minutes holding my hand?? I don't think these are the actions of someone who is 100% set on divorce. Much like it is said to people in plan A "actions speak, not words" I think I should keep the same in mind for her. She may tell me she is dead set on divorce but all of her actions say otherwise. Im sure there is some part of her brain telling her that all of this is fake, but there is definitely another part of her telling her it just might be real.

You are a good woman Mrs. Recon, I can see why your husband fought so hard for you. Thanks so much for that post, it was just what I needed.

Read this for some inspiration.

Be the lighthouse...a post for those feeling tossed to the waves

Thanks BH,

I just need to remember time and patience, time and patience.

I suppose I should feel some relief that it doesn't seem that she is trying to fill voids in her life with another man, but it almost makes me more frustrated that she is trying to fill the voids with empty compliments from strangers, a new house, a new phone, new clothes, ... all material things.

Eventually when all of these things fail to fulfill her maybe she will follow my light home.

Yes you're correct time and patience time and patience. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Remember even though she is out of the affair sometimes waywards take a time to completely come out of the fog. That is why the BS HAS to be the rock.

You sound much better today.

RCX,

When's your next session with Steve H?

I feel much better today!

The people here are my rock, I will always be in debt to everyone who posts here.

Thank you so much

Haven't scheduled another session yet, since he didn't feel she was in an actual affair he reccomended "riding the wave" and maintaining my plan A until something new develops or I can't take it anymore.

I'll keep you all posted

RCX,
I was away for a few days but I can see that you were getting excellent counsel!
From reading your posts I can see that you are drawing exactly from this expeience what AI would hope most would. You are becoming a rock and a lighthouse. It's remarkable.

As for the "you'll change so we're still getting divorced" (that stuck out to me).
Sounds like you handled this fantasy/fog babble perfectly. I would expect you have portrayed that you would EXPECT her to leave if you reverted back to the pre-affair RCX, no? Isn't that the point of all these changes, all the insight, all the effort, all the concentration, all the introspection...?
Also I think waywards have a tendency to test the resolve of their betrayds. This my be just me theorizing but people do test each other, even if unknowingly I think.

In the end it's everyone's right to pursue a divorce. "I might divorce you" is nothing until the judge slams the gavel. So, point is, she's not telling you anything you didn't know. In the MB world it's nothing more than a complaint. And complaints are good (helps if they're more specific, but we can work on that as we go along). They help us identify where love units are being lost. I would hope my girlfriend (possibly fiance soon...) would let me know if I was doing anything to make my love units with her go down. I want her to stay in love with me; it's a nice feeling.

BTW. I find the LB concept to be quite a good place to start with all the MB stuff, if your ww shows any interest. It's even good for kids -- I have my kids thinking about it. So cute -- one will do something to the other and it's "Okay you just withdrew 1,000,000 love units!"
I've heard this concept in the business world as well (relationship bank or something like that). So it can be presented without being obnoxious or pushy....

Good luck you're doing awesome. Think (Boston) Marathon!

opt

Nothing really new to report, yesterday she called me on her way home from work just to chat (like she used to do) after about 15-20 min I think she realized what she was doing and quickly said she had to go.

I called her today to just check in on how her day was going, we talked for ~20 minutes it was a nice talk. She told me about some issues at work and I said I was proud of how she handled them. This should make major LB deposits.

She also got some quotes back from house plans she was looking at, they came in WAY over her budget. Hopefully my consistent behavior and no prospects of a new home are starting to fracture her "fantasy world".

I'm sure you all know this but it sure is lonely being a light house!

When you're feeling alone, picture us standing beside you.

Like!

Next time when she calls tell her how much you like when she calls you in the middle of the day (in case of course, you really do). Every time when she does something that you really like, tell her so. Show her that it is safe for her to do the things you like and that you don't misuse this care, whether it was accidental or not.

I'm sure it felt AAAWWWkward to her to realise that she actually cares. But I'm also sure that she likes it when your relationship is warm and friendly.

We have been telling each other on occasion when we like something or not. However I worry that if I tell her I like something she will stop doing it because she has told me things like "I worry that by doing XXX or YYY you will get false hope that I want to stay married".

In my mind she has shown by her actions and emotions that she still loves me, however her brain (and history) is telling her our marriage is unsafe for her so she should get a divorce. To me the only way to help resolve her inner conflict it to stay the course and make sure my signal light is always shining bright no matter what the circumstance.

What do you all think?

I think it's more twisted fantasy/fog babble and should be regarded as such, and should be countered with nothing more than your current plan, which is a solid Plan A. You'll read on the recovery boards about FWS's who thank their BS's for showing resolve in the face of their mania.

RCX, she can do, or stop doing, whatever she wishes. You are building a new RCX and a wonderful marriage here. Both of which she will be proud to be involved with IF she decides to stay with you. You have no control over that. What you do have control over is whether you adopt the principles of MB, for you and your family. One of the principles is Openness and Honesty. If that policy is applied, then when your wife does something you like, you absolutely should tell her about it. End of story. Likewise if she does something you don't like (an annoying habit, LoveBuster) -- in a nice, respectful way, those thoughts are voiced. So that you can stay in love with her.

Be the beacon. Just because the ship is being tossed about and going off course doesn't mean you go off your mooring. Then you BOTH wind up lost.

opt

Thanks Opt,

It is just so frustrating some times, but I just need to keep reminding myself "she is drunk, she doesn't know what she is saying". We did talk a little last night, I asked her what she was afraid of in divorce. She said she was concerned of how my daughter will react to it, and she was scared of being alone. I gently brought it up about how most people who get divorced say their second marriage is no better than their first (the people who didn't heal themselves after the failed marriage) and how people who do remarry generally never have the same bond with their new spouse as they do with their child's parent. She said she has also heard this but hadn't given it much thought. I couldn't tell if she was really listening to what I was saying or if it was going in one ear and out the other??

I'm thinking I need to "differentiate" myself from our relationship more (as the light house article posted by Mrs. Recon said). I need something of my own, something to show her that I will be fine with or without her. I have always just had my family and my work to take all of my time, currently my work is suffering a bit because I am trying to spend as much time with my family as possible. I do work out after everyone is in bed but that is it.

My day looks like this:
Morning, wake up, daughter and I eat breakfast together we do our morning routines and drop her off at school ~8:15

Work until ~6 pm (used to be later) get home and eat dinner with daughter, sometimes wife. Read daughter a book and she goes to bed between 730-800. Generally wife will also get in bed ~8:00 she will watch TV for 30min to an hour and then go to bed as well. I try to sit with her and talk as much as possible (she is not on board with MB so no UA yet) after she falls asleep I will catch up on some work or go downstairs to work out.

Any suggestions on how I can "differentiate" myself?