Here it is again for you when I posted it to you.

Here it is for a refresher.

Indeed, there may not be much reaction but the words you say now might rattle around in there and eventually come to rest someplace in her neurons. Keep speaking the truth and letting her know your feelings in a respectful way and you can't go wrong. She's right, there are a LOT of lonely ex-wives out there. It's not a pretty picture.


Seems to me you're differentiated enough just in the fact that you want your marriage and your family to be wonderful and your wife is currently indecisive on the subject.

I don't know about this. Usually it's the differentiating that makes people drift apart in a marriage. It would be really nice if your wife joined you at the table. And what was the response to the idea of walking together after dinner? Perhaps as part of your daily workout...

opt

Yes it would be wonderful if one day she woke up and said good morning, I have thought long and hard and I think our family deserves another chance, but that doesn't seem likely to happen. Sometimes she calls me to just chat, and other days she seems to try and keep her distance? I have told her that we should do some things together and she has been kind of ok with it but not fully on board. Maybe this weekend we can have some good UA time working outside. She has actually told me in the past that she feels really connected to me when we do a project together.

I have kept up the snooping but still have not found anything new. I remember the way she acted in the past when she was texting her old boyfriend (2 yrs ago). She was always cold and never wanted to talk much. She does not seem the same way this time, if I call her she is happy and cheery, doesn't seem in a hurry to get off the phone. When we are together she is generally warm and depending on the situation she may even show love to me? Could a woman who is pursuing an affair act this way? How could someone who is so hurt by their husband that that must get a divorce act this way?

Gotta disagree here. I'm remarried and have a connection with my DW I never had with WXW. Things are a million times better and I have a baby on the way.

I woldn't go back to my ex if she was the last woman left on the planet. I would never speak to her or associate with her in any way if it wasn't for my kids.

I once felt just as you do.

Where do things stand legally. She may be talking divorce, but nothing happens unless the ball gets rolling and I can tell you that there is no such thing as an amicable D.

I was served with divorce papers about a month ago so the ball is rolling. In the beginning she was trying to fast track everything and get the D finalized as soon as possible, but now it "seems" as if things have slowed down, she has not been in contact with her lawyer since I was served, but that may not mean anything. Right now she is under the impression that it will be a "pleasant parting" but if things keep headed in this direction she will be in for a fight. I will sacrifice everything to have equal physical custody of our daughter, this whole process has shown me that family is the most important thing in life.

As far as our relationship goes she has not asked me to move out, all of our interactions are pleasant, she is even flirty and loving towards me occasionally. We are still sleeping in the same bed (no kissing or sex) and we talk on the phone several times a day. I have discussed this with Steve Harley and he didn't think she was having an actual affair but thought she was in a "fantasy mode" where she may be flirting with guys and kind of testing the waters to see how single life would be. I agree with Steve's theory since she is the type of person who is always looking for something bigger and better. He recommended continuing with plan A until things change (good or bad) or until I could not do it any more.

I wanted you to post here so I could ask you what you would have done differently during your discovery of your wife's affair and divorce? I understand you are much happier with your current wife/life and I am sure I could go find a new wife who would make me much happier also, but I owe it to my daughter to try to salvage the family I have now.

I don't have any expectations of my plan A except that I will come out a better person... but hopefully I can serve as an inspiration to my wife should she ever choose to remove her head from her [censored]. Our relationship has never been great, but based on the personal growth I have made I believe it COULD be great if we both were dedicated to it.

I would have stood firmer.

Follow the carrot/stick of Plan A.

I see some similarities to your situation. WXW and I would go on dates. I clung to hope. I thought that making things easy would lead to a better chance to reconcile down the road.

We would go out, have some laughs, etc. It was all for just one purpose: It was her way to walk away with less guilt.

So if D comes up, make it clear that you don't want to go down that road but that if she insists on doing so that you won't make it easy and you sure as hell aren't going to be friends when it is all over.

She has a delusion in her mind that you will be friends.

Trust me when I tell you, if you go down the D route you will not be friends.

I can't emphasize this to you enough. There is no "being friends" post divorce. That works in Hollywood, not in real life. In real life women won't want to date a man who is all "friends" with his ex. It is one thing to be amicable and get along well enough around the kids, it is quite another to be friends.

But my main advice to you is to start resisting talk of D. I tried to stand my ground on D once, saying I wouldn't go along with it. She brow beat me, screaming that if I fought it that I'd ruin any chance of reconciling down the road and that it would be ugly and we'd never be friends.

So I sulked, said sorry, and went back into her plan.

What did she do when the papers were signed? She declared herself free and started looking for guys online right away. 9 months later she was living with someone else while I paid out the nose for child support and hardly saw my kids.

I finally woke up and fought and it cost me $50k in legal fees. Would have saved a lot more if I had been firm and resisted from the start.

And whatever you do, don't be the one to move out.

So if D comes up, make it clear...that if she insists on doing so that you won't make it easy and you sure as hell aren't going to be friends when it is all over.

Repeated for emphasis...

And btw, even THINKING about gracefully vacating your family home at her request indicates you need a strong injection of "No Eff-ing way!" extract.

I can't emphasize to you enough, speaking from experience, that you can't play this game nicely and hope to recover your marriage.

A WW is under the delusion that you guys will split amicably, and that you'll be happy rarely seeing the kids, paying out the nose in CS, and content she found happiness while she frolics in the fields with bunnies and rainbows with her OM, the kids, and you all stare lovingly at how wonderful her love is with her and OM.

So your job is to shatter that fantasy, paint the ugly reality of D for her, and show a much more appealing alternative in recovery.

So when's your next apt with Steve? When's your apt with your doctor? I also found this on AD's from the good doctor himself. concentration in this time of unprecedented crisis?

There has been little talk of divorce lately and no talk of fast tracking it. If she brings up waiving the 6 month waiting period I will simply tell her no way, when she asks why I will say "someday when our daughter asks me if I really did everything possible to keep our family together I want to be able to say yes I did".

I have a prescription for Xanax, those things are magic! I take half a pill before I come home to ease the tension. I can't understand her she is treating our marriage and family like some kind of business arrangement. The longer this goes on the uglier she becomes to me. She refuses to think of what divorce life will really be like, instead she focuses on her career, and finding a house plan that is "up to her standard". It is disturbing that she thinks this little of our daughters future.

From all of my snooping I still can't find any other man, like I have said before it seems like she is in love with the fantasy world she has created in her head. She still calls me to tell me if something good or bad happened during the day, calls to see how I am doing, if I call her to see how she is doing she is always chatty. Are these the actions of someone who has replaced me? Or is the behavior of a renter/freeloader?

BTW I would love any advice on how to get 50% physical custody of our daughter. Seems that the courts almost always side with the mother, but I have seen some exceptions. Any advice would be appreciated, both about custody and dealing with a renter/freeloader.

RCX,

Men who fight for custody tend to end up with the 50/50 arrangements. There is an art to getting custody as a father since what works for women doesn't work for men.

Document like crazy. Argue about them, not about you.

The secret doesn't lie in painting her as a bad parent but showing that you are as good, if not better, than she is as a parent.

If she is willing to settle for 50/50, then take it. Settle and walk away if D is inevitable.

Your best bet is to get her to agree to it.

There are books out there than can help. Custody for Fathers and Father's Rights both come to mind and are good reads worth every penny since you'll pay thousands in legal fees for the same advice.

Men lose more often in court due to mistakes made, not necessarily by the biased court system.

Fight and you'll come out ok. Let her walk away with it all and with promises that you'll get to see the kids and you'll be hosed.

RCX,

I see several options here giving your feelings and the situation:

1. Wait and see. Maybe she will turn around. Pick a certain timeline for yourself - 3 months, 6 months, a year, for how long will you be able to stick to PLan A. In the meantime, maybe this is a useful read: Can a Marriage Be Saved By One Spouse?

2. If I were in your situation I would have lost my patience much sooner and filed for divorce myself. At least I think so. What I see is that your lovebank is starting to hit the critical low and maybe it would be wise to call Steve again and ask for some advice on how to proceed.

3. It is very hard for me to believe that it is just a fantasy itself. There has to be something FEEDING this fantasy. While I think you are absolutely great in Plan A, you have not used every resource of snooping to find it out. You have no access to her work computer, phone activities. May be she is hooked up to internet dating/single whatever site/chat. Fooling around with strangers on the Internet is also an infidelity. People can grow very attached to this type of thing. Is there any possibility to ask someone from the IT department to help you with that?

RCX,
You've been doing a great Plan A for some time over a month. You're being a great Father, learning to live without LB's, and turning things around for you.
I'm glad HTLD's showed up because he has said in more clear terms what I was trying to get to back in the beginning of your thread about letting her believe in a fantasy divorce. There's no such thing as "for the children" friendships -- marriage is "for the children." Being friends with someone who has selfishly destroyed a marriage contract is teaching kids that it's okay to allow others to treat you any way they want and still have them as "friends."

I think the suggestion to pick a time line is a good one. As I've said before there tends to get to be an urgency on these boards that I don't pick up when I listen to Dr. Harley himself speak on the radio show. From my own experience, you are weighing a few months of pain against years of being unmarried to the Mother of your children. I grieve every day for the family I once had, but have all but forgotten the visceral pain of having my wife living in an alternate reality.

This concerns me:
Ask Steve about Plan B. Read about Plan B. Consider Plan B. If you do this right, you can save the love you have for her by going to Plan B and not having to expose your life to her painful selfish actions. Plan B, before she drains your love bank, gives you a chance to be very clear: "you remember that marriage 'contract' we agreed to? Well, you're not holding up your end of the agreement, and it's too painful for me to be involved with someone who refuses to put anything back into this marriage, call me when you can agree to these terms (a,b,c terms), and until then we will communicate through an intermediary."

What about the radio show? I thought you were in communication with Joyce at some point?

Hang in there. I think Dr. Harley suggests several months of Plan A for us men. (less for women because they tend to be very emotionally devastated by affairs -- it becomes too unhealthy). Did you read Surviving an Affair? That might give you some perspective.

opt

RCX,

BTW, I share this info with you exactly because my WXW still, to this day, can't understand why I'm not warm and fuzzy with her and am not basically on a friendly basis.

It's not that I desire to be an a$$. Quite the opposite. I'm cold towards her, not showing either happiness or anger. She just is. I deal with her in the same way I would deal if ordering a plane ticket on the phone, or a pizza for delivery.

She wants more of the fantasy scenario where we're buddies for the kids.

I may not be angry towards her anymore, but she simply isn't someone I wish to associate with and many men get to this point with their exes. So I understand your comment about the longer that this goes on the uglier she becomes.

If you wish to save things, then follow Steve's advice. Shelve the divorce talk, but have a lawyer on standby if you need him/her.

RCX, I hope you had a good weekend with some good UA. I remembered something that Steve told me in one of the sessions I did with him that might apply to you and your wife. He said that to get her to buy into the program I would have to appeal to her "selfish side." He said that waywards tend to be so incredibly selfish (or at least in that mode for the time-being), that it's the only way to get through to them. I believe "fantasy mode" may have the same characteristics. What he was saying if I remember right was to present everything as how it would benefit HER, not us, not family, not daughter. Since she's at the forefront of her own mind at this juncture, it's like the only language they understand.
[Me, I ran out of patience. I ran out of LB balance as I believe it started out on the low side from years of lack of SF and other unmet needs. I didn't opt for Plan B which might have helped - I didn't understand Plan B and thought it would provoke her father to fund a lengthy court battle which would eliminate my chances to see my kids; I never trusted him anymore than I trusted the ex. You seem to have more going for you -- I hope you can maintain the good and turn this thing into a marriage neither or you imagined]

I hope you can get on the radio show. Or get her to talk to Steve. I think these things would be helpful.

HTLD: I'm not at all inclined to disagree with you on the lawyer idea(or anything else in the field of D or protecting yourself). Do you have advice on how to secure a lawyer without sending the wrong message? Or how to lawyer up while sending the right message? It just seems like a dramatic step, albeit important and perhaps necessary; but their is definitely a timing thing and it tends to put others on the defensive.
I wonder if Mr. W is around -- I think he's an attorney.

opt

Well not a good weekend, we had some UA time but it does no good. She is 100% set on divorce, we talked in depth about it and based on all of the things she is saying I am more convinced now than ever that she is just not cut out for marriage. She wants everything that comes along with marriage but none of the responsibilities. She is simply running from our marriage because it involves too much investment from her. She is only comfortable in a relationship where she gets constant praise, can set her own boundaries and can get out of the commitment whenever she feels like it.

In our early sessions of marriage counseling (2yrs ago) the therapist said I had an incredibly strong personality and she had an incredibly weak one. I would definitely agree with this and at times I would use my personality to "bully" people both at work and at home. If my wife felt the least bit bullied she would emotionally retreat away from me, this would make me feel abandon and I would go chasing after her. Since the therapist pointed this out to us I have mellowed my attitude magnitudes and now I would say that I am fairly normal most of the time. She on the other hand has not strengthened herself at all. She still runs at the sign of the slightest conflict.

I tell you this story because this weekend she was telling me how she is done with our marriage because she knows I will blow up at her again one day and I still badger her. When I asked how I still badger her she said "your doing it right now"! I told her if you don't tell someone when they are doing something that bothers you how do you ever expect them to not do it... her response... "you should just know"! Finally she told me it was badgering her to ask what time she would be home, or how her day was or if she was happy... anything to try to make conversation with her is perceived as badgering. Later in the day I told her that I wanted the Realtor to relay any information about our house via email to both of us. She said "what you don't trust me" and I said "no I just don't want to have to ask you if you got any news today because I don't want you to feel badgered".

I truly believe that right now she is just too weak of a person to be involved in a real relationship. She wants to "turn off" all commitments and relationships as soon as she leaves work. She doesn't have the capacity to deal with daily conflict in her personal or professional life, in the past she has actually requested to transfer positions because she didn't get enough positive feedback from her boss. I have stopped praying that she finds her way out of the fog and started praying for her to gain the strength to get up and realize that she is actually in the fog, then find her way out.

As for my love bank it has been empty for a long time... maybe a year or more, the only reason I fight is for my daughter and her LB balance will always be in the black. I have been hoping that my example will help my wife grow into the woman she needs to be, but the longer this goes on the farther down her road of materialism, selfishness and immaturity she goes. This is why she is getting uglier to me. Right now we have basically agreed to 40:60 custody but i'm wondering if I should keep fighting for 50:50?

Sorry I know this is not what you all wanted to hear but it is what it is. I can keep up plan A until the divorce is final but it is only to prove to myself that I can be a selfless person. As of yesterday I have lost all hope for my marriage, I know that you should never have any expectations in plan a but I think we all do. As of this morning I honestly have no more expectations, from here on out it is all about me and my daughter. In the back of my mind I feel a relief, I have not taken an Xanax in a few days and I feel fine very little stress.

I'm very sorry to hear that things have taken somewhat final turn.

I hope and pray that this is not the final turn but I am emotionally and mentally prepared for it to be (no more expectations). When I think back on my life I see milestones that have molded me into who I am today. Two of the biggest milestones were the day my daughter was born (of course) and the day my wife filed for divorce. The growth I made during those two days is probably more than all of the other milestones combined, so I can not say that nothing good came from my marriage. Of course if we could just split the house and cash and go our own separate ways life would be much easier... but much more lonely as well.

Interesting.
If you can reflect back with unfiltered eyes, was WW always unreasonable & emotionally immature? Or, is this new behavior that is part of her wayward personality?