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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by 20YearHistory
However.

However, my FWW would not have fallen back in love with me if I had not eliminated all my LB�s and started filling her EN�s.

20yrhistory, And I agree with everything you say there, but he is not at that place yet. His wife is still in an affair and is manufacturing grievances to distract from her affair. He is not ignoring the problems in the marriage, but is not allowing himself to be distracted. If the issue becomes her supposed "neglect" instead of how to end her affair and reconcile then they don't EVER get to the point where they can address the deficiencies in the marriage.

I know exactly what you are saying. Yes, I agree.

However, what helped my W break out of her fog was to do my best (even though it was very difficult at the time) was to focus my efforts on myself AND to �woo her� back into my heart. I basically approached her like I was courting her again. I went back mentally to those days early on in courtship and recreated that environment.

She has shared with me that indeed my behavior did have the desired effect on her. It showed her that I was still the person she fell in love with years ago. In turn, this shed a bright light on the contrast of me and OM. I showed her that I was everything and more that she has always wanted our marriage to be.

I value our current relationship more than I ever had and have truly changed myself into the best person I have ever been in my life. And for that I am very proud of myself.

Was it a challenge? Heck yes! Hard every day. But, I persevered, plowed through the resistance and was determined to win her back through pure resilience.
That is the only point I am trying to make.

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20year,

Were you and your WW separated during the time you "wooed her"?

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And...did you ever "slip up" and commit a LB during the "wooing" period?

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Here's my first draft...


WW,
I�ve been doing a lot of thinking about our marriage and this divorce we are facing. I wanted to let you know where I stand on these issues. Let me begin by letting you know that I am not willing to be or stay in a loveless marriage. I am and would be willing to stay in a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage. Because of that, I�m willing to give you an opportunity to earn my forgiveness and trust if you do certain things. This is what it will take to keep me interested in reconciling this marriage:

1. You ending all contact with the OM for life - send him a no contact letter that is approved by me

2. no more nights apart or going out without each other

3. complete transparency � sharing passwords, schedules, etc

4. no more opposite sex friendships

5. complete honesty about your affair

6. committing to the Marriage Builders program for marriage recovery as outlined in the book Surviving an Affair, which I have a copy of.

I know our marriage was not perfect, but I think we can turn it into a great marriage in which we both can have everything we want and need from each other with this plan at Marriage Builders. I would be willing to try to create that marriage under those conditions. I am not going to drop the divorce right now, but if I see our marriage making some changes, I will consider doing so.

All my love,
BH

Let me know what y'all think.

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Originally Posted by 20YearHistory
[qu

However, what helped my W break out of her fog was to do my best (even though it was very difficult at the time) was to focus my efforts on myself AND to �woo her� back into my heart. I basically approached her like I was courting her again. I went back mentally to those days early on in courtship and recreated that environment.

And I agree very much, that is what he is doing. That is the carrot part of recovery. But it takes a stick too. He has to focus on setting conditions for reconciliation and killing her affair. It takes both a carrot and a stick. Just the carrot alone or the stick alone is not going to break through the fog.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I think your letter looks great.

So when are you sending it?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted by looking_for_help
20year,

Were you and your WW separated during the time you "wooed her"?


Yes, we were separated. I kicked her out of the house on D-Day. We were separated for 10 months.

1 week post d-day she called me asking for another chance with me. I agreed on 2 conditions. First, NC with OM for life. No negotiations on this. Second, to be open and honest with me about everything. These were my only 2 requests at the time.
She enthusiastically agreed to these conditions. For the next 9 months, I was doing everything in MY power to turn the tide and I am very proud of my choices during this time.

We were spending a lot of time together and were getting close. I had my suspicions that contact had not ended but couldn�t prove it. She was saying they were not communicating.
I found out the first of January 2012 that contact had never ended and at that time I told her it was over. We had had a false recovery. She was saying that there was no contact with OM. Lies. They met 2 more times at a public restaurant and continued to have spotty contact during this entire �recovery� period.

Needless to say, when I found out I was furious and told her that is was over and we would be filling for a D.

The saving grace for us was that even though they continued to communicate, my action had the desired effect. She fell back in love with me even though she never thought that would happen and was fighting it the whole time.

So, when I told her that it was over in January and stood firm ground, it pushed her over the edge and realized the marriage is what she wanted. She sent a NC letter to POSOM, committed 100% to the marriage, put EP�s in place and started on our REAL recovery.

Not until the point when she knew I was gone forever, did she fully commit. She was cake eating and I wasn�t going to have any part of that. I have too much self respect for myself. I made a stand.

Even under the best of circumstances when you have a fully remorseful wife is recovery possible. Don�t settle for crumbs or second best. It is still very difficult at times for us and she is the epitome of remorseful and committed. But it didn�t happen overnight.


I wouldn�t still be here with her if I had anything less than 100% commitment to the M and to MB�s.
My point? WOO HER! Step up the plate, have boundaries and follow through. When she starts to respect you again and sees the possibilities things will change. You know too well she is being led by her emotions and not her head.

It is your job to create the emotions in her that you want by wooing her with confidence and love. Give her hope. Give her all your love.

See in her mind, she has real reasons to do what she did. You have to show her that you are the man of her dreams and it would be the biggest mistake of her life to lose you.

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Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Here's my first draft...


WW,
I�ve been doing a lot of thinking about our marriage and this divorce we are facing. I wanted to let you know where I stand on these issues. Let me begin by letting you know that I am not willing to be or stay in a loveless marriage. I am and would be willing to stay in a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage. Because of that, I�m willing to give you an opportunity to earn my forgiveness and trust if you do certain things. This is what it will take to keep me interested in reconciling this marriage:

1. You ending all contact with the OM for life - send him a no contact letter that is approved by me

2. no more nights apart or going out without each other

3. complete transparency � sharing passwords, schedules, etc

4. no more opposite sex friendships

5. complete honesty about your affair

6. committing to the Marriage Builders program for marriage recovery as outlined in the book Surviving an Affair, which I have a copy of.

I know our marriage was not perfect, but I think we can turn it into a great marriage in which we both can have everything we want and need from each other with this plan at Marriage Builders. I would be willing to try to create that marriage under those conditions. I am not going to drop the divorce right now, but if I see our marriage making some changes, I will consider doing so.

All my love,
BH

Let me know what y'all think.

I like it!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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The basis of it is that she did not receive as much affection as she felt that she needed.

�I was so lonely�� you were never here�.. you didn�t need me�.. I thought you didn�t love me anymore�.. I needed someone to talk to�..I wanted to tell you�..�

Does any of that sound familiar? I got all of that dumped on me roughly three minutes after confronting my WW with the love-note e-mail from her to POSOM I discovered.

...but those are not grounds for affairs and divorce in my opinion.

You do realize (as I eventually did) that our opinions are not at issue here, right? The average weak mind of modern woman is not burdened with measuring anything about their marriage's content except "what's in it for them."

That's why exposure and Plan A/B can work if done immediately, before the rot of the glorious, unattached "Me" takes hold in their brains. We must make the alternative to coming back to the marriage so painful to them that "what's in it for them" in staying away is ashes and garbage.

I'd like to flatter myself and attribute her return to my good looks, charm, superior sexual skill, and general advantage over POSOM, but I am realistic enough to say:

...there would be no �pleasant� life for her after an affair-occasioned divorce. She would not �get the house� in any settlement, unless a pile of smoldering ashes constituted a �house� to her. She would never be able to return to her teaching job, because even after OM�s retirement, Mrs. OM continued to work there. Her family, with virtually NO history of infidelity would not be joining forces behind her, as obviously my FOO would be behind me. Our friends, all of whom were involved in long-term, stable unions, would not accept her actions, and �see her side of it�. And of course, POSOM, having turned tail and run, weeping for cover, still quivering, until he died, that I might yet inform Mrs. OM of his actions, was not likely to provide her a suitable companion. He wanted an easy piece of co-worker tail, NOT a long-term commitment. WW had NO comfortable alternative-life support system to imagine running to.

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Originally Posted by looking_for_help
And...did you ever "slip up" and commit a LB during the "wooing" period?

Oh yes, I committed LB's but they were not the ones that caused her to origionally lose her love for me. I ended elimited those and they are gone FOREVER. My LB's were a result of the hurt and devistation of the A.

None of us are saints. We all make mistakes. However, you can't walk on eggshells all the time. She needs to know you are going to take any Sh*t from anyone in a respectful way. You have boundaries! Follow though. She will respect you for this.


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Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Here's my first draft...


WW,
I�ve been doing a lot of thinking about our marriage and this divorce we are facing. I wanted to let you know where I stand on these issues. Let me begin by letting you know that I am not willing to be or stay in a loveless marriage. I am and would be willing to stay in a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage. Because of that, I�m willing to give you an opportunity to earn my forgiveness and trust if you do certain things. This is what it will take to keep me interested in reconciling this marriage:

1. You ending all contact with the OM for life - send him a no contact letter that is approved by me

2. no more nights apart or going out without each other

3. complete transparency � sharing passwords, schedules, etc

4. no more opposite sex friendships

5. complete honesty about your affair

6. committing to the Marriage Builders program for marriage recovery as outlined in the book Surviving an Affair, which I have a copy of.

I know our marriage was not perfect, but I think we can turn it into a great marriage in which we both can have everything we want and need from each other with this plan at Marriage Builders. I would be willing to try to create that marriage under those conditions. I am not going to drop the divorce right now, but if I see our marriage making some changes, I will consider doing so.

All my love,
BH

Let me know what y'all think.


I would encourage you to address that you take fully understand (if indeed you do) your personal shortcomings in the marriage, you understand WHY she felt the way she did, and you will do everything in your power to eliminate them forever.

See, she needs to know that you are willing to do your part. She doesn�t want to go back to the way things were. Neither of you do. Convince her that she is the most important thing in your life and you are committed to never be the source of her unhappiness. You are committed to meeting her EN�s and eliminating LB�s.

Give her hope!

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Originally Posted by 20YearHistory
[


I would encourage you to address that you take fully understand (if indeed you do) your personal shortcomings in the marriage, you understand WHY she felt the way she did, and you will do everything in your power to eliminate them forever.

See, she needs to know that you are willing to do your part. She doesn�t want to go back to the way things were. Neither of you do. Convince her that she is the most important thing in your life and you are committed to never be the source of her unhappiness. You are committed to meeting her EN�s and eliminating LB�s.

Give her hope!

20years, the issue right now that he is addressing is not her unmet needs [he has already addressed and changed those] but the conditions for reconciliation. He has gone way too far to the other side and given her the impression that he has NO conditions whatsoever and will be available to appease her forever. The goal right now is to establish in her mind that there will be conditions and he will not be forever meeting her needs with no return. He is introducing her to the concept of just compensation.

I understand where you are coming from, but in his case, more of the STICK is very necessary at this point. I don't want to confuse him even more with a debate about tactics, but think it is very important that you know he needs to lean more toward a STICK now.

He has met her needs so she knows this. He reiterates this in his message:

Quote
I know our marriage was not perfect, but I think we can turn it into a great marriage in which we both can have everything we want and need from each other with this plan at Marriage Builders.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by 20YearHistory
[


I would encourage you to address that you take fully understand (if indeed you do) your personal shortcomings in the marriage, you understand WHY she felt the way she did, and you will do everything in your power to eliminate them forever.

See, she needs to know that you are willing to do your part. She doesn�t want to go back to the way things were. Neither of you do. Convince her that she is the most important thing in your life and you are committed to never be the source of her unhappiness. You are committed to meeting her EN�s and eliminating LB�s.

Give her hope!

20years, the issue right now that he is addressing is not her unmet needs [he has already addressed and changed those] but the conditions for reconciliation. He has gone way too far to the other side and given her the impression that he has NO conditions whatsoever and will be available to appease her forever. The goal right now is to establish in her mind that there will be conditions and he will not be forever meeting her needs with no return. He is introducing her to the concept of just compensation.

I understand where you are coming from, but in his case, more of the STICK is very necessary at this point. I don't want to confuse him even more with a debate about tactics, but think it is very important that you know he needs to lean more toward a STICK now.

He has met her needs so she knows this. He reiterates this in his message:

Quote
I know our marriage was not perfect, but I think we can turn it into a great marriage in which we both can have everything we want and need from each other with this plan at Marriage Builders.


ML, I don�t disagree.

I just called my W and discussed this issue with her. She told me that until she had hope and confidence that things would not go back to the way they were, she couldn�t visualize a great marriage.

Is that the case here? Maybe. Maybe not.

My point is that he must show her that he has changed. She doesn�t see that so even though a stick is important, he must also give her hope.

Hope in the form of him showing her in a way that addresses her real fears even if they are from a fogged out WW.

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Originally Posted by 20YearHistory
[
My point is that he must show her that he has changed. She doesn�t see that so even though a stick is important, he must also give her hope.

I agree. And he has already done that. And continues to do so. So now his goal is to show her the stick by outlining his conditions.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by 20YearHistory
[
Hope in the form of him showing her in a way that addresses her real fears even if they are from a fogged out WW.

This was a very important issue to your wife, however, in most cases those "fears" are manufactured grievances that are contrived to take the focus OFF the affair. Of course the BS indicates his willingness to meet those needs in the future - after the affair - however, the BS has to be able to properly discern between grievances that are contrived and those that are real. In his case, he has taken the stance that these grievances are REAL and has addressed them. At the expense of the stick, I might add. So his goal now is to address the STICK.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by 20YearHistory
[
Hope in the form of him showing her in a way that addresses her real fears even if they are from a fogged out WW.

This was a very important issue to your wife, however, in most cases those "fears" are manufactured grievances that are contrived to take the focus OFF the affair. Of course the BS indicates his willingness to meet those needs in the future - after the affair - however, the BS has to be able to properly discern between grievances that are contrived and those that are real. In his case, he has taken the stance that these grievances are REAL and has addressed them. At the expense of the stick, I might add. So his goal now is to address the STICK.


No question there. Completely agree. Without the Stick, my M would have never survived. The Stick is what broke the chokehold for us. Big wake up call.

I too had manufactured grievances at the time, as he does. It is difficult to sometimes discern between manufactured grievances and real grievances. You know, her perception of reality vs. his perception of the reality of the core problems in their marriage.

The point I am trying to make here is, at least in our case, a balance between a stick and also addressing her fears of committing to the M were key factors in our reconciliation.


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I think your approach was perfect. Manufacturing grievances is a classic tactic of addicts [of all stripes] that is designed to distract from the affair and keep the BS off balance. This is why it is real important to not allow these grievances to become the focus because they are usually based on the fog. Like Steve Harley says, don't pay much attention to what the wayward says because it is a distraction.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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My WW has done exactly that...made the complaints about her neglect the main focus. Although I dont agree that it was as bad as she makes it out to be, I do agree that there was some. But, this is ALL she talks about when she talks.

No mention of the affair or her neglect of me.

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Originally Posted by looking_for_help
My WW has done exactly that...made the complaints about her neglect the main focus. Although I dont agree that it was as bad as she makes it out to be, I do agree that there was some. But, this is ALL she talks about when she talks.

No mention of the affair or her neglect of me.
When will you be sending the letter?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted by looking_for_help
My WW has done exactly that...made the complaints about her neglect the main focus. Although I dont agree that it was as bad as she makes it out to be, I do agree that there was some. But, this is ALL she talks about when she talks.

No mention of the affair or her neglect of me.

Trust me when I say to you that if you do get back together, as time goes by and as her love for you grows, this position she is currently taking is going to haunt her for very long time.

When the fog lifts, this may be a large portion of the remorse she feels knowing what she has put you through and the reasons she is giving you now.

You will see a totally different person emerge when the fog lifts! And it will lift one way or another. Together or apart.

Her neglect of you will become very much a reality when she sees what you have done for her in saving her from herself.

Hopefully, this will be even more of a motivator for her to step up to the plate and help you heal!

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