Marriage Builders®
Posted By: recurring_pain Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 03:12 PM
Hello everyone.

I'm going to try to post again to continue to get advice on how to deal with things. I don't know if anyone will help because I have not agreed with some advice or suggestions that have been given. If not, then I will understand and move on to somewhere else.

I am having a really hard time determining whether I should fill out the EN questionnaire with my wife and try to apply them or to back off and let her dictate the pace of things.

Once everything was out in the open I made some changes to the way I treat her and started applying those changes. It seemed to make things worse. She said I was smothering her. Everything I read on here says that one person can save a marriage and to fill out the EN-Q and try to start making deposits in her Love Bank. Well I don't know whether to do that or back off and let her dictate when and what.

Any advice on this because I'm having a terrible time with what's being done right now.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 03:22 PM
If your wife is having an affair, she won't allow you to meet her needs so this is really a moot point until you rule out an affair. Filling out the questionaire is a waste of time if she is having an affair.

Have you done some snooping to rule out an affair?
Posted By: happyheart Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 03:26 PM
Please give us a little background info.
How long have you been married, doyou have children, etc.

What do you mean by 'Once everything was out in the open'?

If your wife is nothaving an affair, you may just want to tell her you want to become a better husband and have a better marriage and ask her to fill out the questionaires together.
Posted By: happyheart Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 03:27 PM
I agree with ML
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 03:28 PM
happyheart, please read his previous posts. Filling out questionaires will be a distraction from taking necessary steps. When there is a probably affair in the works, it is important to keep them focused on getting it out in the open.
Posted By: happyheart Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 03:28 PM
I agree with ML
Posted By: alis Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 03:28 PM
Can you repost this to your original thread?

What has happened since your thread? Did you rule out an affair yet?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 03:31 PM
I can just continue this on the original thread. Would that be more beneficial?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 03:32 PM
Affair was acknowledged and is being dealt with. The affair is over.

The deeper issue of several issues is that she doesn't know whether she is still in love with me or not. That's what we are dealing with right now.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 03:34 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Affair was acknowledged and is being dealt with. The affair is over.

The deeper issue of several issues is that she doesn't know whether she is still in love with me or not. That's what we are dealing with right now.

No, the deeper issue is the affair. We know she is not in love with you, and that is the RESULT of the affair. Sweeping the affair under the rug is like focusing on the peeling paint in the girls bathroom when the Titanic is sinking.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 03:38 PM
ML,

I appreciate your concern for the affair. But it is not the main issue here. The affair happened AFTER she told me about not being in love with me. You have already voiced your concerns to me very clearly that you feel the affair is the major issue.

Plan A has been accomplished to my satisfaction and Plan B is in effect. We are working on repairing the issues. We are in counselling and are back in the same house.

The issue right now is how and what can I do to help her find her feelings for me again?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 03:42 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
ML,

I appreciate your concern for the affair. But it is not the main issue here. The affair happened AFTER she told me about not being in love with me. You have already voiced your concerns to me very clearly that you feel the affair is the major issue.

It is not my "feeling" that the affair is a major issue, it is the truth. And until you stop choosing to be in denial, you will not resolve your problems.

I want to point out to you AGAIN that you are the least objective person on this thread and that your best thinking led your marriage to this terrible place. You do not know how to save a marriage, my friend. You do not have good instincts about what is happening and have no idea how to turn this around.

If you are serious about saving your marriage, you are going to have to put aside your own failed ideas and keep an open mind. Your plan is NOT WORKING.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Plan A has been accomplished to my satisfaction and Plan B is in effect. We are working on repairing the issues. We are in counselling and are back in the same house.

You don't even know what Plan B means.

How about describing the affair and how it came out. Who is the OM? Has all contact been ended? That is your FIRST STEP. You cannot take the second step until the FIRST STEP has been taken.
Posted By: alis Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 04:00 PM
Plan B is SEPARATION AND NO CONTACT.

Straight from "What Are Plan A and Plan B":

Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery.

looking_for_help, we CAN help you but if you refuse to follow even the most basic MB concepts, then we cannot.
Posted By: markos Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 04:05 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Plan A has been accomplished to my satisfaction and Plan B is in effect. We are working on repairing the issues.

That's not what Plan B means.

Quote
The issue right now is how and what can I do to help her find her feelings for me again?

This site has a plan for that, but only if you are willing to work on reading and learning. It will never work if you want to be lazy, or ignore what people tell you.

Click on Basic Concepts, read ten pages. Click on Q&A columns, read all pages. Click on Articles, read all pages.

By the time you are done, you will know a lot more than Plan B.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 04:08 PM
I know you can help, but no one seems to believe me when I say that all contact has ended! She has agreed to repair what has been broken.

I don't know how else to say it and it's very frustrating that I can't get my questions answered because we keep coming back to this.

I know the program here works but no one can tell me that EVERY situation is the exact same. I don't know how else to tell everyone and make them believe that all contact has ended and she has agreed to work things out. What am I neglecting to say that would make this believable?

I know this site and the posters here can help, but it is very frustrating that I can't get anyone past this sticking point. What else do you need me to say about it?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 04:10 PM
Geez, I know that's not what plan B means. I am a literate person. I was trying to convey the message that we are past that point and that she has agreed to work on things.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 04:12 PM
Every situation might be different, but the solution is NOT different. This is why we need you to put aside your own ideas and listen to us.

Start off by telling us about the affair. Who is the OM? How have you verified that all contact has ended? Is the OM married and if so, have you informed his wife? Has the affair been exposed?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 04:13 PM
How long was the affair? Where did she meet him? Does he live close by? What does he do for a living?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 04:16 PM
It is apparent that I am not going to be able to get my questions answered here, unfortunately. We keep coming back to this same thing. I really hate that because I know everyone here is genuine and willing to help.

I have been through this multiple times already and for whatever reason I am not being believed about the affair being over. I am tired of going down that road and don't want to do it again.

I know who he is, how it came about, he's not married, we have not exposed it because in OUR case there is no need. It is OVER and DONE. Now please just let me know whether we can move past this or whether I need to find another place to get some help and support.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 04:17 PM
The affair was 2 weeks, 2 sexual encounters, she has known him since high school, married to him for 1 year before we got together, 45 minutes away, works for county gov't as a highway worker.

She had ended it BEFORE I found out.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 04:20 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I know who he is, how it came about, he's not married, we have not exposed it because in OUR case there is no need. It is OVER and DONE. Now please just let me know whether we can move past this or whether I need to find another place to get some help and support.

WE are trying to give you support. If you will listen, we can help. We can't help if you don't. You can't sweep this affair under the rug and hope to recover your marriage.

And of course it needs to be exposed. That is the first step towards recovery.
Originally Posted by Dr Harley
As you already know, I�m a strong advocate of honesty and openness in marriage. I call it transparency�letting your spouse know everything about you, especially your faults. But should that level of openness carry into the public arena? I believe that it should in cases of extreme irresponsibility, and that certainly includes infidelity. When you have done something very hurtful to someone else, others -- especially those who care for you the most -- should know about it. Such exposure helps prevent a recurrence of the offense. Your closest friends and relatives will be keeping an eye on you�holding you accountable.
here
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 04:21 PM
ML,

Believe me when I say I am NOT sweeping this under the rug. We are dealing with this. But the reason this happened is because she lost the feelings for me. That is the cause of the affair, not the other way around.
Posted By: alis Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 04:22 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I know you can help, but no one seems to believe me when I say that all contact has ended! She has agreed to repair what has been broken.

I don't know how else to say it and it's very frustrating that I can't get my questions answered because we keep coming back to this.

I know the program here works but no one can tell me that EVERY situation is the exact same. I don't know how else to tell everyone and make them believe that all contact has ended and she has agreed to work things out. What am I neglecting to say that would make this believable?

I know this site and the posters here can help, but it is very frustrating that I can't get anyone past this sticking point. What else do you need me to say about it?

It goes far BEYOND ending no contact, if she has ended it as you say.

Looking_for_help, you want us to answer your questions and help you based on YOUR beliefs on how to fix a marriage.

You have so far disregarded all of our questions and do not seem to be implementing any MB concepts. Nobody here comes up with questions/plans based on our personal beliefs, it is based on proven MB techniques developed by those with experience saving marriages after affairs.

Do you want MB help or not? You can't get past this sticking point because it is the foundation to surviving an affair.

Please answer:

- Who is this OM? How did she know him?
- Have you exposed the affair properly?
- Have you investigated it on your own terms and not her word?


Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 04:23 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
The affair was 2 weeks, 2 sexual encounters, she has known him since high school, married to him for 1 year before we got together, 45 minutes away, works for county gov't as a highway worker.

She had ended it BEFORE I found out.

That is a great first start! And how do you know it has ended? What are your snooping resources to ensure this has happened? How was she contacting him? Has that method of contact [email, facebook, etc] been eliminated?

The conditions that led to the affair should be eliminated. For example, if she contacted him via facebook, then she should delete her facebook account and commit to never being on the computer without you. Additionally, you would need full access to her cell phone and perhaps put a GPS on her car.

Did he come in your home while you were gone? Did he meet up with her at her sisters? Where did they meet?
Posted By: alis Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 04:23 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
The affair was 2 weeks, 2 sexual encounters, she has known him since high school, married to him for 1 year before we got together, 45 minutes away, works for county gov't as a highway worker.

She had ended it BEFORE I found out.

This is her ex husband?

Was she still married to him when she met you?

How do you know she is telling the truth? Did he tell you? Did she? Or did you find this out on your own?
Posted By: 20YearHistory Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 04:28 PM
LFH-

I am a BS and not a vet on this board. However, I see many tendencies in you that I once had. You are in the same denial I was in once I found out about my FWW affair.

Please do yourself a favor and LISTEN to the folks on this board and take their advise.

The path I see you taking is setting yourself up for a False Recovery. Believe me, you don't want this. Our FR was more painful than the affair itself.

Now we are in full recovery but it took MB to make that happen. I firmly believe that MB is saving my marriage.

She is lying to you. You don't have the full picture.

If you don't believe us here, okay. Fine. But ask yourself these questions 'what is the potential cost of not taking the steps suggested here?' 'what is the potential benefit?'.



Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 04:29 PM
The morning that I confronted her I told her my "requirements" if she had any plans to try to repair our marriage. She told me later that she called him THAT morning and told him that I said that they were to never talk, see or encounter each other again ever. Contrary to what everyone tells me...I believe her because there has not been anymore calls to his number and because she told me that was the truth.

She had the affair after she went to her sister's house while she had time to see him. She has no "spare" time while at home.

He did not come into my home because she knows that would have made things worse and there would be NO chance of repair. She met him at a hotel once and at his house once.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 04:31 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
ML,

Believe me when I say I am NOT sweeping this under the rug. We are dealing with this. But the reason this happened is because she lost the feelings for me. That is the cause of the affair, not the other way around.

The reason the affair happened is because she has poor boundaries around men and, at a time when you were having trouble in your marriage, she allowed another man to meet her needs.

As long as she continues to have such poor boundaries around men, you can expect repeat affairs.

Once again, this is you applying meaning to something you don't understand, lfh. What you are doing is repeating fogbabble to us that I know came from your wife. Here is the "story" she gave you:

Wayward SPIN: "I feel completely out of love and moved out. After I moved out I met up with my XH and a romance blossomed."

TRUTH: "I started having an affair with an old lover and wanted to move out to continue my affair without interference. The affair was going on for much longer that I admitted to my husband is the REASON I moved out."

You obviously believe the SPIN and as such, are not comprehending the gravity of the problem. Your wife left you and your children so she could conduct an adulterous affair with this RAT FILTH. That is what happened.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 04:31 PM
It is her ex from before we got together.

She was not married to him when we met.

I just know she's telling me the truth because we have discussed it multiple times and she knows that if she doesn't she will chance losing her family and children.

I found out on my own and confronted her. She broke down crying and told me the rest. She told me that she had already ended it with him before I found out because she realized that it was not what she wanted or was looking for. She realized that the real problem was that she had lost the "in love" feelings for me and thought she might find them elsewhere.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 04:33 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
The morning that I confronted her I told her my "requirements" if she had any plans to try to repair our marriage. She told me later that she called him THAT morning and told him that I said that they were to never talk, see or encounter each other again ever. Contrary to what everyone tells me...I believe her because there has not been anymore calls to his number and because she told me that was the truth.

Let me think........... Didn't you make the mistake of "believing" her before? And yet here we are AGAIN. think

Is there a denial convention in town? crazy
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by lookingforhelp - 02/26/12 07:08 PM
I will have to say that I have asked her and I truely believe that she is not having an affair.

Posted By: alis Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 04:39 PM
How did their marriage end?

HAVE YOU EXPOSED THIS AFFAIR?

And finally... women do not abandon their newborn babies, children, and husbands for a brief accidental fling. You do NOT have the truth here.
Posted By: 20YearHistory Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 04:39 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
The morning that I confronted her I told her my "requirements" if she had any plans to try to repair our marriage. She told me later that she called him THAT morning and told him that I said that they were to never talk, see or encounter each other again ever. Contrary to what everyone tells me...I believe her because there has not been anymore calls to his number and because she told me that was the truth.

She had the affair after she went to her sister's house while she had time to see him. She has no "spare" time while at home.

He did not come into my home because she knows that would have made things worse and there would be NO chance of repair. She met him at a hotel once and at his house once.


Exactly what my FWW said to me, LFH. �laying down the law� at this point will only get you so far. I did the same thing. FWW SWORE to never speak, see or communicate in any form or fashion. She knew it was over if I found out this was ever breeched.

Can you guess what happened next? It was all a lie and the affair simply went deeper underground for an additional 8 months after D-Day. Secret email accounts were set up and the affair continued while we were in what I believed to be �recovery�.

FWW accounted for all of her time during this. I always knew where she was. Fortunately for me, it was just email contact not physical (phew!). It all took place on her work computer which I couldn�t monitor. Snooping again exposed this a final time.

I post this to simply share with you that all may not be as it seems.

Be wary my friend. Do not believe a word she says. Verify, validate, confirm. Repeat.

You can read story after story after story on this forum and learn from others mistakes. I fear you are setting yourself up for failure.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 04:39 PM
I'm exhausted trying to make you believe me.

I understand that you all have more experience with this than I do.

It may turn out that I'm setting myself up for something but right now I am not agreeing with what's being said. The affair is over and she has ended contact.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
She realized that the real problem was that she had lost the "in love" feelings for me and thought she might find them elsewhere.

She lost the "in love" feelings because she had a new point of comparison. She would not have known that unless she had something to compare it TO. It was her affair that created the loss of her love for you. She allowed that to happen by allowing another man to meet her emotional needs. And then she left you so she could carry on her affair.

One of your big mistakes has repeatedly been to believe her words instead of her actions. Your wife is a WAYWARD spouse and she will tell you anything to keep you off her back. You "believed" her before and she was lying. You did not learn from that mistake.

Instead of using blind belief, a better approach is to a) eliminate the conditions that led to the affair [her poor boundaries around men] and b) become a better snooper.

Becoming a better snooper will help you build trust and prevent a repeat affair.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 04:44 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I'm exhausted trying to make you believe me.

I understand that you all have more experience with this than I do.

It may turn out that I'm setting myself up for something but right now I am not agreeing with what's being said. The affair is over and she has ended contact.

Thats ok if you want to ignore us. Its all the same to me. What i will do is continue to post a few more posts and maybe when you get serious about saving your marriage, you will come back and read this thread. But whether you take the advice or not matters not to me. It is your marriage to lose, after all. I have already saved my marriage. smile
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 04:46 PM
lfh, here is a post where Dr Harley explains what it takes to save a marriage - there is a very narrow path:

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.

I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.

The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.

This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that
will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted.

An analysis of the wayward spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.

After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts here
as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.

Your nightmares are only the tip of the iceberg. They are but a small reflection of the suffering you experienced when you discovered your husband's affair, and the fear you have that the suffering will be repeated. You have no assurance that the affair is over because you don't even know who the other woman is. You are being asked to trust your husband, who has already proven to be untrustworthy. For all you know, he could be working with her, or you could be going to the same church, or she could be
your neighbor. And since he won't discuss the details of how the affair took place, you have no assurance that another affair will not take its place.

Infidelity is not something that can be swept under the rug. While those who have affairs want to forget about it and move on, those who are betrayed must take very specific steps before they can fully recover. In your case, those steps have not been taken, and as a result, your fear persists. I will send you a complimentary copy of my book, "Surviving an Affair," if you send me your address. It will describe these two steps to you and provide you with a roadmap toward full recovery. But the path will require full disclosure of all details.
Posted By: 20YearHistory Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 04:55 PM

My stomach is in knots right now for you. The road you are choosing is the road to disaster.

ALL the answers you seek are right here, right now.

If I only knew then what I know now....things could have been so different.

Do yourself a favor and spend some time reading others stories on this forum. You just might see things differently and come back here with a different perspective.

Man, I am praying for your situation.

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 06:06 PM
So there was an affair, but it is over. However, the affair was never exposed. And your wife is opposed to exposure now, presumably because that would embarrass her. And there is no justification for shaming her now that she has apologized, correct? No reason for her to own how terribly she hurt you? No reason to elist all your family and mutual friends to be on guard against any contact between her and her affair partner? No reason to "innoculate" those around you who support your marriage to be on a hair trigger for signs she has relapsed? After all, just because she weakened in the past does not mean she is capable of being weak again? Right?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/20/12 06:35 PM
Listen, a woman who claims to have had an affair because of your neglect will not then complain that you are smothering her. Unless, of course, she is still having the affair.

I bet if you looked for a pay as you go phone, you'd find one.
Posted By: happyheart Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 08:40 AM
What baffles me, is how much time and energy you invest to convince us (some people on the internet you don't know) that the affair is over.

If it is, you are wasting your energy.
If it isn't you are also wasting your energy.

Either way it will not hurt you to verify that your wife is telling the truth. And secondly, to prepare yourself for the worst. Why do you strap on your seat belt if you go driving? Well I, personally do not plan on using it, but I put it on anyway. Just to be on the safe side. Now the chance that I will get into a car accident today is minute in comparison to the chance that your wife will contact the other man for some reason or the other. OR HE WILL CONTACT AND PURSUE HER!

That's why we are saying: Put seat belts and airbags in place and brace yourself for a tough ride. You may not need them, but that can only be said in hindsight.

That's how you save your marriage, instead of just taking a shot at saving it.

We know you love your wife and want to make it work. And taking ALL possibilities into account is only sensible when there is so much at stake. We are speaking from mental sanity to retirement money. You'd better make it good!

May God give you wisdom,

Happyheart

Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 01:08 PM
So how do I begin doing any of this besides the snooping if she seems so set that she doesn't feel anything and really doesn't want to try. Every time we talk about it at all she seems to have her mind made up that she wants to leave.
Posted By: alis Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 01:44 PM
The point of snooping is to find out the whole truth of the situation.

With the whole truth, one can expose properly and find support from outside sources to bring the WS back to reality.

Affairs are fantasy (after all if this guy was so great, why did she divorce him in the first place?).

Exposure, using the truth obtained from snooping, will kill the fantasy.

Once the fantasy is blown and real no contact is established, is when you can work on bringing your wife back to reality and start rebuilding your marriage.

You are trying to do this by skipping the basic steps and hoping it will still work. Sorry. You are dealing with a woman who left her newborn, family and had an affair with an ex-husband. You NEED to do the work down to the letter, your situation is bad and you can't afford to try it "your way".

"Your way" told you she wasn't capable of such a thing in the first place. You think with your heart and not your head.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 01:57 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
So how do I begin doing any of this besides the snooping if she seems so set that she doesn't feel anything and really doesn't want to try. Every time we talk about it at all she seems to have her mind made up that she wants to leave.

Focus first on exposing and killing the affair. THAT is your problem and is the reason she wants to leave. Make sure the affair is DEAD. Have you told everyone about the affair? That is the fastest way to kill an affair and keep it dead.

See, the reason she is not engaged in your marriage is because she is emotionally invested ELSEWHERE. You have to cut off that path first before you can save your marriage.

Go snoop, get the goods and then come back here.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 02:19 PM
Snoop before exposure?

I am concerned that she will just go ahead and leave when I expose.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 02:22 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Snoop before exposure?


I would snoop around now to see what she is doing. If you don't see anything, you will still want to expose the affair. The reason is because you need others to know why you broke up and this will also prevent any future plans.

But get everything in place first. How would she be contacting the OM?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 02:26 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Snoop before exposure?

I am concerned that she will just go ahead and leave when I expose.

She is more likely to leave if you don't, because the affair might be still on or can be easily resumed if it is kept secret. On the other hand, if you expose and she leaves, it will be temporary because you will have probably shut off the path of her affair. Exposure will ruin any future hope of her affair.

If she left it would be because she is still in the fog. But effectively killing the affair will kill her fog and you are more likely to get her back.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 03:58 PM
lfh, do you have the book Surviving an Affair? There is a plan in there that will pull your marriage out of the ditch. But first you have to drag this affair out into the sunlight and kill it dead in order to motivate your wife to want to recover this marriage. The plan of recovery goes like this:

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.

I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.

The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.

This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that
will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted.

An analysis of the wayward spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.

After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts here
as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.

Your nightmares are only the tip of the iceberg. They are but a small reflection of the suffering you experienced when you discovered your husband's affair, and the fear you have that the suffering will be repeated. You have no assurance that the affair is over because you don't even know who the other woman is. You are being asked to trust your husband, who has already proven to be untrustworthy. For all you know, he could be working with her, or you could be going to the same church, or she could be
your neighbor. And since he won't discuss the details of how the affair took place, you have no assurance that another affair will not take its place.

Infidelity is not something that can be swept under the rug. While those who have affairs want to forget about it and move on, those who are betrayed must take very specific steps before they can fully recover. In your case, those steps have not been taken, and as a result, your fear persists. I will send you a complimentary copy of my book, "Surviving an Affair," if you send me your address. It will describe these two steps to you and provide you with a roadmap toward full recovery. But the path will require full disclosure of all details.


Get the book and let her see you reading it. Tell her this is a plan that is supposed to be very effective in restoring the romantic love to our marriage. I am checking into it. And leave the book lying around.
Posted By: bigpicture Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 04:17 PM
LFH,
Reframe your predicament. Your marriage is dead gone and buried. The sooner you can let go of it the better. It will need to be reborn. Before that can happen you need to let go of the old and go through a process of being sure the proper circumstances are available for it to be reborn in. The steps ML suggests are what Dr. Harley's decades worth of experience sees as most probable for that success.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 04:37 PM
So we just left our second couple's counselling session and the decision that came out was that we are going to separate. She will be going to her sister's and wants to work out a schedule with the kids.

Good or bad? Let me know if more info is needed to decide.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 04:38 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Every time we talk about it at all she seems to have her mind made up that she wants to leave.

The vets here are not going to steer you wrong I have seen MANY BS's such as yourself go through this on these boards. If she is going to leave, she will anyways. If her mind is set on it then she is just dragging you through the coals until the time is perfect for her... all the while you become a doormat thinking doing "this" or doing "that" will change her mind as she keeps fog talking herself into the wrong decisions.


Originally Posted by bigpicture
LFH,
Reframe your predicament. Your marriage is dead gone and buried. The sooner you can let go of it the better. It will need to be reborn. Before that can happen you need to let go of the old and go through a process of being sure the proper circumstances are available for it to be reborn in. The steps ML suggests are what Dr. Harley's decades worth of experience sees as most probable for that success.

Quoted for TRUTH!
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
So we just left our second couple's counselling session and the decision that came out was that we are going to separate. She will be going to her sister's and wants to work out a schedule with the kids.

Good or bad? Let me know if more info is needed to decide.

MC's don't know the first thing about saving a marriage ... demand a refund.

Separation WILL NOT help your marriage at all. ALl it does is allow your wife easier access to her affair. Beender dun dat (the MC part .. not the affair part). It only drums up old feelings ... and reinforces the "bad" aspects of your marriage. Feelings follow actions my friend.

edit to add minor detail.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 04:43 PM
But I dont think there is anything I can do to prevent it.

I am gonna tell her that we will be exposing the affair and that we are telling everyone that we're separating because of it.
Posted By: alis Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 04:47 PM
Do you want a divorce or do you want to save your marriage? As a betrayed spouse, it is your choice to choose.

Right now, you are choosing divorce. Separation, in this situation, will lead to divorce. You have given her the option to take the kids a few times per week so she can continue to go out and do whatever with OM or other men. Or, is she leaving them (a newborn??) with you? In that case, even more freedom to act like a 17 year old without responsibilities.

IS that what you want? If it is, then separate. If you want to fight for your marriage, then consider using marriage builders. You registered here over a month ago and have yet to listen to anyone or follow any MB advice. I'm not sure what you want?
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 04:49 PM
Do NOT tell her that your going to expose. JUST DO IT. If you warn her, it will only allow her time to spin it around on you and make you look like the bad guy. WHen you do expose you make sure to tell them that you want their support in killing this affair and rebuilding your marriage.

Then after you expose, you tell her that you do not wish to separate or divorce but instead create a mutually fulfilling marriage where both of you are happy. Any time she wants to come back she is more than welcome provided she is willing to create a loving and romantic environment with you using the MB tools.

Be calm and cool ... and no love busters.

Kids stay with you.

MNG

edit for a minor detail

Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 04:51 PM
Alis,
I agree with what you say but I dont think I have a say in her leaving. I can tell her till Im blue in the face but it is ultimately her decision. No, I dont want to separate but unless I physically restrain her I cant make her stay.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 04:54 PM
MrNiceGuy,

Wont that push her farther away?
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 05:00 PM
YOur wife is going to be "bat $%&*" crazy when she finds out. Everything she says after that will be in spite of you for exposing. Shes leaving anyhow right? Chances are its to be closer to OM.

She will say things like "NOW its REALLY over" and "there is no hope now" .. and "i knew i couldnt trust you". All fog talk because you shined the light on her behaviour.

Be calm and do not feed into her outburst when it happens. Calmly tell her you do not speak divorce nor seperation ONLY marriage and will discuss the matter later when she has calmed down and then walk away and do not discuss it.

MNG

Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 05:02 PM
What if her family starts giving her grief over it?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 05:04 PM
She is leaving but I feel like it is to get some space from all the pressure and stress that is between us so she can think more clearly.
Posted By: alis Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 05:04 PM
You're right, you can't physically restrain her short of being charged with unlawful confinement.

You can however, tell everyone the truth and blow up her fantasy, and bring her back to reality. That's done with exposure.

You've gotten 6 pages + your other thread of MB advice, all people saying the same thing (including those who have RECOVERED their marriages from a similar situation). All from advice from a professional counselor who has saved many marriages from the same, even worse.

WHY don't you believe it? WHY do you think that letting this selfish woman bully you and walk out on you and your little kids without any repercussions?

You do realize that she's not going to say, "yeah, I walked out on my husband and newborn because I started sleeping with other men, you know how it is'.

No.

She's going to tell people "he's awful, he's mean, he's neglectful, he's abusive, and only X understood, he saved me blah blah blah blah".

Exposure using proper snooping will prove this ^ to be wrong.
Posted By: bigpicture Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 05:05 PM
LFH,
Your best act to be self confidence is what she needs to see. You have let go of her and her actions. Just act on your values instead of your emotions. You are the lighthouse, she is the ship lost and tossed in a roiling sea.
Posted By: alis Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 05:05 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
What if her family starts giving her grief over it?

? Like tell her it is wrong and immoral to abandon her family like that ? That is the whole point. So far, nobody has told her that she is doing wrong and her family (sister at least) is supporting such depraved actions. If they knew the truth, maybe they would stop enabling it.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 05:06 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
What if her family starts giving her grief over it?

That will be a good thing, its best not to hide her from the consequences of her actions... helps kill the fantasy in your wifes mind. However you have to get to them and tell them first that you want to SAVE your marriage and need their influence to help persuade your wife to stop the destruction of your marriage.

DO you have ANY evidence of her affairs at all?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 05:06 PM
I can do more snooping but I think I will go ahead and expose unless there is some reason to snoop more first.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 05:09 PM
I do have evidence and her sister knows as well as her brother in law.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 05:10 PM
And she told two people she works with.
Posted By: alis Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 05:10 PM
Understand that even after exposure, snooping is essential. You do it until you are too bored to continue because you've found nothing too many times. A wayward spouse simply cannot be trusted even when "recovery" begins.
Posted By: alis Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 05:10 PM
What did she tell them? Did you verify from them what she actually said?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 05:10 PM
Gonna be hard with her at her sister's house.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 05:10 PM
OK good ... just expose. Have you seen the link in ML's sig about exposure 101? Go have a good read on it and take some notes.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 05:13 PM
I havent yet but she said she had been getting advice about things from them. I know that yall say to not believe anything she says but she talks about the advice that they have given her and that kind of stuff would not really be worth making up because some of it was very negative toward her.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 05:13 PM
Use facebook .. copy all your wifes firneds to a note pad file and send each of them a message 60 seconds apart in one swoop. (this prevents spam filters from shutting you down if you time them out.

There is a template i think somewhere that will give you a basic exposure letter to start with. Simple .. to the point. No drama. You love your wife ... she had an affair... you have evidence if anyone wants to see. Plz help my save my marriage.

Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 05:14 PM
Will def read that again. We are about to sit down to discuss the logistics of this stupid separation.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 05:27 PM
I would ask the mods to move this to the SAA forum. There is alot more traffic in that section. Click notify in your post to get help from a mod.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 06:05 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
So we just left our second couple's counselling session and the decision that came out was that we are going to separate. She will be going to her sister's and wants to work out a schedule with the kids.

Good or bad? Let me know if more info is needed to decide.

It is very bad and is likely to lead to divorce. The counselor is helping her destroy your marriage.

If you dont' expose this affair and put a stop to it, you will have nothing left. It is really important that you start listening to us if you want to save this.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 06:09 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Will def read that again. We are about to sit down to discuss the logistics of this stupid separation.

You need to stop this train wreck NOW. Do not cooperate with any separation. You must STOP contributing to your own demise. Tell her you love her and that you will not cooperate in any way shape or form with a separation. Tell her she will need to get a court order to take your children.

Please listen. You cannot afford any more missteps.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I do have evidence and her sister knows as well as her brother in law.

You need to expose this affair YOURSELF, lfh. Make up a list that consists of her sister, brother in law, her parents, your parents, close friends and sibs. Expose to them all. Go to the OM's facebook page and copy and paste all his contacts into a word doc for safe keeping.

Expose to all these people TODAY using the templates in my thread in my signature.

And did you get a keylogger on her computer like I suggested? Does she have a laptop she will be taking?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 06:15 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
And she told two people she works with.

This does not count as exposure. She is telling people "we have fallen out of love and are getting a separation. In the meantime I have met a new man!"

All of these people need to hear the truth from you: "wife is having an adulterous affair with an old lover and wants to leave to carry on her affair. Please use your influence to persuade her to end her affair."

And DO NOT cooperate with the "separation." That "counselor" has caused great harm to your marriage. They are destructive to marriages.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 06:17 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
She is leaving but I feel like it is to get some space from all the pressure and stress that is between us so she can think more clearly.

That is fogbabble. She is leaving to carry on her affair. She can go in the bathroom and "think" if she needs space. Offer to clear out a corner of the garage and put a little chair out there for her if she needs some "space." That way she doesn't have to tear apart your family.

Please stop posting this nonsense.
Posted By: LostNtime Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 07:59 PM
LFH,

When a wayward is caught, they will swear that it is all over, devulge just enough details about it so that the BS will think they have told the truth about it all and that its over.

The whole point of this is to get out from all the stress that discovery has brought about, and CONTINUE their affair. They will show the BS, or more likely TELL the BS just enough about their current activities so that the BS will BELIEVE their lies. A good liar always interjects some truth into their lies so that it is believable. WS's are good liars.

At that point, it goes deeper undergound as the WS pretends to be working on their marriage. This is so that they can claim that they tried, but it just didn't work. Now during this period, it may be too difficult for them to meet physically, but they are still in contact via, email, text, secret phone etc. This contact is what keeps the WS in the fog and unwilling, possible unable, to allow her ENs to met by the BS.

Once a bit of time has past, the WS can then separate from the BS, claiming they tried, but its over and AP had nothing to do with it as the WS was not in contact at all with the AP during this time and just does not love the BS anymore.

In the mind of a wayward, this will allow acceptance of the WS and AP as a couple in they eyes of the public, family, etc. and their divorce was not due to an affair.

Sounding a bit familiar?

Exposure by the BS to get the TRUTH out, destroys this fantasy.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 08:28 PM
What if she has already left? Will the exposure that I plan to do still be effective?

She has packed but hasn't actually went to her sister's house yet. If she goes for tonight without the kids am I too late?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 08:32 PM
I have spoken to her sister and asked her if she would help me save this by watching and questioning her while she's there.

When she was staying at her sister's house before, her sister and brother-in-law were not staying there. They were staying with her sister's other-in-law that was dying of cancer. So they are willing to help keep an eye on her. Will that help at all?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 08:36 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
What if she has already left? Will the exposure that I plan to do still be effective?

She has packed but hasn't actually went to her sister's house yet. If she goes for tonight without the kids am I too late?

Nope! It will make no difference.
Posted By: LostNtime Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 08:37 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
What if she has already left? Will the exposure that I plan to do still be effective?

She has packed but hasn't actually went to her sister's house yet. If she goes for tonight without the kids am I too late?

Yes the exposure will still be effective and no its not too late. You have been given some great advice here LFH. Mel is the BEST at this. The longer you delay to do what you need to do, the less your chances of saving your marriage.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 08:40 PM
You need to let her know that you will not cooperate with the separation and will be filing for primary custody and possession of the house on grounds of ADULTERY. When that is filed, the OM will be subpoenaed into court to give sworn testimony about his affair. All of their emails, cell phone records, etc will be subpeonaed in discovery.

It is real important that you get in there NOW and paint a very ugly picture of her future if she pursues her affair. And don't act like you don't fully understand that she is leaving for her affair.

She needs to know NOW that you will not cooperate with her destructive plan and you will not be her "friend." <-----I need you tell her exactly that. Tell her if she goes through with this crazy pursuit of her affair that you will not cooperate and you will not be her friend.

And don't tell her you plan on exposing the affair.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 08:40 PM
ML,

Please clarify. The exposure will make no difference if she's gone or after she's gone the exposure is no longer useful?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 08:43 PM
What if I do tell her and she leaves tonight anyway to think about what I say or something like that?

Since she is on the way back from picking the girls up at school. What if I get her to wait until the weekend to decide. That way I have a little more time with you to come up with a full plan?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 08:48 PM
Isn't her being totally removed from me until she's over the affair part of Plan B?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
ML,

Please clarify. The exposure will make no difference if she's gone or after she's gone the exposure is no longer useful?

The exposure will be useful whether she is there or not. Even though she is gone, you will still want to try and save your marriage.
Posted By: LostNtime Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 09:32 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
What if I do tell her and she leaves tonight anyway to think about what I say or something like that?

Since she is on the way back from picking the girls up at school. What if I get her to wait until the weekend to decide. That way I have a little more time with you to come up with a full plan?

LFH, Mel doesn't need any time to come up with a full plan. She already has one, the MB plan.

DO NOT THREATEN EXPOSURE! Just do it. If you threaten so she will back down, she will just tell her 'version' first and try to make you look like a jealous controlling husband and for them to expect a crazy email from you. And she will leave anyway.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 09:34 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
What if I do tell her and she leaves tonight anyway to think about what I say or something like that?

Since she is on the way back from picking the girls up at school. What if I get her to wait until the weekend to decide. That way I have a little more time with you to come up with a full plan?

I would go to her today and tell her your decision. Tell her what I explained above, that you won't be cooperating with any "separation" scheme and paint a very ugly picture of her future if she does.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 09:34 PM
Did you read this, lfh?

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
You need to let her know that you will not cooperate with the separation and will be filing for primary custody and possession of the house on grounds of ADULTERY. When that is filed, the OM will be subpoenaed into court to give sworn testimony about his affair. All of their emails, cell phone records, etc will be subpeonaed in discovery.

It is real important that you get in there NOW and paint a very ugly picture of her future if she pursues her affair. And don't act like you don't fully understand that she is leaving for her affair.

She needs to know NOW that you will not cooperate with her destructive plan and you will not be her "friend." <-----I need you tell her exactly that. Tell her if she goes through with this crazy pursuit of her affair that you will not cooperate and you will not be her friend.

And don't tell her you plan on exposing the affair.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 09:37 PM
I read some of the Plan B and under certain circumstances separation may be worth the risk. Hear me out and then reply...

When we're together I have the need to be talking about our situation ALL the time. She gets tired of hearing it and says that she can't even think about repairing things. Does that change the view of whether she should get some time away from me at her sister's while I do the exposing and initiate the plan?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 09:37 PM
ML,
I did read that.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 09:38 PM
I have to go up and help with the kids' supper. I'll be back on later to see if y'all are online.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 09:44 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I read some of the Plan B and under certain circumstances separation may be worth the risk. Hear me out and then reply...

It is not time to be discussing Plan B AT ALL so just put that aside. It is not warranted here.

Quote
When we're together I have the need to be talking about our situation ALL the time. She gets tired of hearing it and says that she can't even think about repairing things. Does that change the view of whether she should get some time away from me at her sister's while I do the exposing and initiate the plan?

Once again, you are posting fogbabble, my friend. She wants to get away from you so she can resume her affair. If she needs to "think" and get some "space" she can do that in the bathroom or a corner in the garage. A person does not need to separate to think.

She is gaslighting you.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 09:47 PM
Let me explain your wife's mindset to you so you understand what you are dealing with. Your wife is addicted to the OM. It is an addiction very much like a heroin or alcohol addiction. She will say anything to you to get her "fix" and keep you off her back.

Understand that she is high on an affair. She is the falling down drunk. So when the falling down drunk tells you he needs some "space" what he really means is that he wants to get away from you so he can GO TO THE BAR AND GET A DRINK.

That is all your wife wants. Women don't leave their homes and abandon their children so they can go "think." She can go think in any room of her house. No, it would take a powerful addiction to get her out of her home.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 09:49 PM
When discussing this earlier she was very adamant about having equal acces to the kids which i thought was very "final" sounding.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 09:52 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
When discussing this earlier she was very adamant about having equal acces to the kids which i thought was very "final" sounding.

Did you tell her what I said above? Make sure you explain that you will be seeking PRIMARY CUSTODY of your kids on GROUNDS OF ADULTERY. In most states, even no fault states, adultery is taken into consideration when it comes to custody and financial settlement.

Also tell her that judges FROWN on parents who ABANDON their children. By moving out, she is doing what is considered abandonment.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/21/12 09:53 PM
p.s. tell her you will also seek to prevent her from ever taking your children around her adultery partner since he is an unfit adult.

She is planning on introducing them if she hasn't already. Her goal is to replace you entirely with the OM.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/22/12 01:23 AM
Quote
Make sure you explain that you will be seeking PRIMARY CUSTODY of your kids on GROUNDS OF ADULTERY.
Nail her on this. Make it clear that you will not roll over for her. She has a cozy scenario in her head right now that involves you cheerfully bowing out of the marriage and allowing OM to step in. DO NOT ALLOW THIS.
Posted By: CaliSun Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/22/12 02:03 AM
Please make it clear that you will never be her friend, acquaintance etc if she is considering divorce. She needs to know you expect full custody and will get a court order to keep her ex away from the children. My husband woke up when OW received a signed and notarized no contact letter on behalf of our minor children. It also threatened a lawsuit for emotional distress on behalf of our children. There are some excellent legal-language templates online. You need to preempt her plan to separate from you to eventually begin a new life with that OM.
Posted By: My4Loves Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/22/12 11:04 AM
In Adultery nothing is final ... their emotions change hourly.

Your only goal and PLAN is A ... Carrot/Stick

You are the husband she fell in love with and you do everything in your power to NUCLEAR BOMB EXPOSE her adultery to everyone.

OM Wife
OM Family
OM Friends
WW Family
WW Friends

Every single person (Read Melody's 101 Exposure thread) will get the bomb.

You need to do it today ... your marriage can survive her anger it cannot survive a 3rd person.

EXPOSURE has to happen ... so far on this forum it is by far the single most effective tool. There are thousands of successes from exposure.

You become the best darn husband on the planet ... you chase her ... you WOW her over with your Plan A dynamics.

EXPOSURE IS THE ONLY WAY TO SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/22/12 01:29 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
So we just left our second couple's counselling session and the decision that came out was that we are going to separate. She will be going to her sister's and wants to work out a schedule with the kids.

Good or bad? Let me know if more info is needed to decide.

This is why my stomach gets torn up into knots whenever someone comes here and tells me they are going to a marriage counselor. This mans wife wants to leave to pursue her affair and the "counselor" just validated her. And Jesus wept.....
Posted By: Scotland Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/22/12 01:50 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
So we just left our second couple's counselling session and the decision that came out was that we are going to separate. She will be going to her sister's and wants to work out a schedule with the kids.

Good or bad? Let me know if more info is needed to decide.

This is why my stomach gets torn up into knots whenever someone comes here and tells me they are going to a marriage counselor. This mans wife wants to leave to pursue her affair and the "counselor" just validated her. And Jesus wept.....

My heart hurts. I wish that more marriage counselors would learn how to SAVE marriages.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 12:07 PM
Ok, so how big do "crow" portion sizes come anyway? I owe everyone here an appology.

I have so deeply wanted to believe my wife that I have totally ignored the advice on here. I am sorry for that.

It may be too late now but I am exposing things this morning. After a little more snooping I found out that she has not ended contact with him. She has continually lied to me and I have had enough of the lies.

I confronted her with the new lies last night and she still says that she doesn't want me or want to try to work things out. She is back at home because she doesn't want to be away from the kids. I told her last night that I will be filing for divorce on the grounds of Adultery and I will be filing for Primary Full custody. This didn't seem to affect her in the least in regards to her ending things with the OM. All she wants to say is why am I trying to use the kids to punish her?

So, do I get any replies that don't include a very large "we told you so"?

I am also thinking of calling the OM just to let him know what he has contributed to and that he should know that my kids will NEVER be around him in any form or fashion just so he knows that his potential new life will not be a bed of roses. Advice on that?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 12:11 PM
Better late than never! grin

Ok, are you ready to get to work? If so, go read the thread in my signature to see how to do the exposure. And don't call the OM until after you have exposed the affair to his family and friends.
Posted By: alis Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 12:11 PM
Don't worry, there aren't any "I told you sos", it is very typical for a betrayed spouse to want to believe the best but unfortunately that is rarely ever (if ever) true. But please HEAD any advice from here on in - unfortunately these situations are never unique.

Expose this morning - great! Do it properly, it's overdue. I wouldn't bother calling the OM - he is having an affair with a married woman, I'm sure he doesn't care if he's doing damage. You can however, get him where it hurts by telling his family (is he married? Sorry don't recall). How did she meet this guy again?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 12:12 PM
Remember that the OM is not married either. I don't know if that matters.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 12:13 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Remember that the OM is not married either. I don't know if that matters.

You can expose to his family. Does he have a facebook page?

Did you read the thread in my signature?? It is real important you do this in a very strategic, effective way.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
It may be too late now but I am exposing things this morning. After a little more snooping I found out that she has not ended contact with him. She has continually lied to me and I have had enough of the lies.

Did you save the evidence?

Also, I do like your plan to call the OM. Just do it after you have done a nuclear exposure.
Posted By: alis Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 12:15 PM
Oh I see, then this is her ex husband. Well yes, expose to his families. Does he have a partner? Is he completely single? Do you know this for fact or is that what she says?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 12:15 PM
I believe he does have a FB account.

I have read it but I'll go back and read it again this morning before I start making calls.

Do you still honestly think I have any kind of chance to save this marriage even though I have disregarded your advice up to this point?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 12:16 PM
alis,

I don't know if he has a partner. I know he's single.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 12:17 PM
I'm not going on anything she says anymore because she apparently is not the same person right now. I don't really know how to find out if he has a GF or not.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 12:40 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I believe he does have a FB account.

I have read it but I'll go back and read it again this morning before I start making calls.

Do you still honestly think I have any kind of chance to save this marriage even though I have disregarded your advice up to this point?

Yes! You have a 50/50 chance of saving this if you are very strategic.

Go to the OM's facebook page and copy and paste all his contacts into a word doc for safekeeping. Then use the letter on the thread in my signature and send his contacts private messages telling them about the affair.

CALL her parents and close family using the talking points outlined in my thread. Ask them all to call her up and use their influence to persuade her to end her affair. Email other family members with the email example.

Also, call your parents and tell them about the affair. Ask for their support.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 12:42 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
alis,

I don't know if he has a partner. I know he's single.

It is very likely he has another GF so doing the facebook exposure will bring her out of the woodwork. Be sure and put your phone # and email address on the message.

Did you read the thread in my signature?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 12:43 PM
So now it's just questions for me. She has told me that she has been emotionally neglected for so long (which is true) that she has given up on us long before the affair. Does that have any significance here?

I guess what I'm asking is whether all of this is a wasted effort if she has consistently said that she is done and doesn't want to work this out?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 12:43 PM
I'm reading through it multiple times to be sure I have the right procedure.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 12:44 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I'm reading through it multiple times to be sure I have the right procedure.

Good man!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 12:44 PM
So he has 237 friends. Do you mean send a private message to each one?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 12:48 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
So now it's just questions for me. She has told me that she has been emotionally neglected for so long (which is true) that she has given up on us long before the affair. Does that have any significance here?

I guess what I'm asking is whether all of this is a wasted effort if she has consistently said that she is done and doesn't want to work this out?

lfh, you will have a chance to work on the marriage AFTER you have killed the affair. But if you don't kill the affair, you won't have a chance. Your marriage can be transformed to a happy, romantic marriage and that is our goal here. The plan is to kill the affair and THEN you will be able to fix your marriage. Every thing we are telling you is with that goal in mind. There are no guarantees but this will give you the BEST CHANCE of saving your marriage.

And your wife doesn't know what she wants so don't listen to anything she says. She is an addict so her feelings will change from minute to minute. Notice how she moved in and out? She is very confused. And that is to your advantage. You have a PLAN, she does not!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 12:50 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
So he has 237 friends. Do you mean send a private message to each one?

cull through the list and prioritize his contacts into:

1. family
2. married friends
3. any other important looking people

You won't have time to get to all of them, but do as many as you can in a few hours. Space them out 60 seconds apart, and be sure and change the photo on your facebook to one of you and your wife and your children. All of these people need to be able to see you and contact you.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 12:51 PM
I understand. It just hurts so badly. This morning I told her that I will help her get out of this fog and be there for her but she has to want to. I tried to hug her and tell her that I love her and she just stood there with her arms beside her. No emotion at all! That tears me apart!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 12:52 PM
On MY FB? I don't actually have one.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 12:54 PM
Expect to get support from some and criticism from others. Don't even let the criticism bother you one bit! You are not doing this to get approval, but to put pressure on the affair. So even if a contact condemns you for exposing, it will still embarrass the OM.

Exposing to the OM's family and friends RUINS your wife's future in that family because it will be much harder for her to show her face in that circle. Many people will look down on her and she knows that.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 12:55 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
On MY FB? I don't actually have one.

Go start up a fb page right now. Put your full name and a picture of you, your wife and your children. I don't think you can even send a private message on fb without your own page.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 12:58 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I understand. It just hurts so badly. This morning I told her that I will help her get out of this fog and be there for her but she has to want to. I tried to hug her and tell her that I love her and she just stood there with her arms beside her. No emotion at all! That tears me apart!

This is because she is emotionally invested ELSEWHERE and is high on the fog of an affair. Exposing the affair will ruin that fantasy fog and help her see herself in a different light and ruin the fog.

She needs to see you FIGHT for your marriage. Husbands who take a complacent approach by allowing the affair to persist give the impression they don't CARE. We have many wayward wives here who actually THANKED their husbands later for fighting for their marriage. That is what she needs to see from you!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 12:59 PM
I thought you wanted me to send these from WS account.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 01:00 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I thought you wanted me to send these from WS account.

Oh no! Go and start up your own page with your own name and upload a picture. It will take a couple of minutes. Everyone needs to know who you are.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 01:02 PM
See, if you do it from your WS account, she can easily shut you out and then send them all messages saying you are just a crazy, jealous kook who is imagining things. Then your exposure will be wasted.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 01:02 PM
Working on it now!

How long are you available online today?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 01:07 PM
I will be in and out today. But the others here are also very knowledgable so you will be in good hands. Just post your questions and someone will help you.

You will do great! I know this is hard, but this is the best thing for your marriage. Hang in there and be strong! smile
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 01:09 PM
Ok Thanks. I have the FB page created. So I need to start arranging and sending the private messages now right?

Can I add contacts from other people's FB to be able to send them a message? Don't they have to accept me first?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 01:19 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Ok Thanks. I have the FB page created. So I need to start arranging and sending the private messages now right?

Can I add contacts from other people's FB to be able to send them a message? Don't they have to accept me first?

Not if thier account is set up to receive messages you don't have to be a friend first.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 01:23 PM
So I just go in, create a new message and how do I know their email address?

Sorry to be so ignorant of FB. I've just never used it.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 01:44 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
So I just go in, create a new message and how do I know their email address?

Sorry to be so ignorant of FB. I've just never used it.

You go to the page of the person and look to the right of their name. you will see a button that says "message." click on it and then send them the message. Be SURE and include your name and email address because you may get some surprising emails. We often get emails from other women saying they are having a relationship with him too.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 01:45 PM
Space the messages out 60 seconds apart so facebook does not shut you down for flooding.

Also, when you get going, your wife will get wind of this and try to stop you. Don't let her stop you. And don't take her calls until you are finished.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 02:19 PM
I just called her mom and dad to tell them and she had already called them. Her mom said that my WW told her that she was going to call her grandma after she got off the phone with her.

This is looking more and more hopeless. WW doesn't seem to let this bother her at all.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 02:27 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I just called her mom and dad to tell them and she had already called them. Her mom said that my WW told her that she was going to call her grandma after she got off the phone with her.

This is looking more and more hopeless. WW doesn't seem to let this bother her at all.

She told them WHAT EXACTLY? So her family is supporting her adultery?
Posted By: alis Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 02:28 PM
Did you tell her you were going to expose?

Part of exposure is also telling them what the truth is too - it is almost certain that WW told them that your marriage was long over/you were x/y/z (abusive, neglectful, whatever) etc...

You need to tell them what really happened
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 02:38 PM
Something may have been said about exposing very early on.

I told her mom and dad all that was happening. Her mom said WW called her a few days ago and basically said we were getting divorced because she had been lonely and neglected for a while and that she had an affair. She didnt tell he mom with who. I did.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 02:41 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Something may have been said about exposing very early on.

I told her mom and dad all that was happening. Her mom said WW called her a few days ago and basically said we were getting divorced because she had been lonely and neglected for a while and that she had an affair. She didnt tell he mom with who. I did.

Did you ask her to use her influence to persuade her daughter to end her affair?

It is real important that you stay focused on this mission and continue calling people. Your wife is saying: "I decided to end our marriage and later met a new man." You need to tell everyone that your wife wants to leave so she can pursue her affair. Tell them you want to save your marriage and ASK FOR THEIR HELP!!

You need to stay focused here!!!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 02:42 PM
Tell them this: WW is leaving to pursue her affair with OM!! Let them know there was trouble in the marriage but that can be fixed. She is not leaving because of the troubled marriage she is leaving TO PURSUE HER AFFAIR!

Stop allowing yourself to get distracted and get back on the ball!!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 02:43 PM
I'm trying but it's very difficult when I get shut down every way I turn.

I did ask for their help. Her mom said that she has tried to talk to her but WW won't let her and won't listen.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 02:44 PM
Her mom did say that she would keep trying.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Her mom did say that she would keep trying.

Great!! Now keep exposing. Call her sister, her grandmother, any other family members.

And get those messages out to the OM's family and friends.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 02:59 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I'm trying but it's very difficult when I get shut down every way I turn.

I did ask for their help. Her mom said that she has tried to talk to her but WW won't let her and won't listen.

It is very important that you frame this properly because your wife is spinnign the story. You should say: WW is leaving to pursue her affair with OM. We are all devastated about her affair. I am calling to ask you to use your influence to persuade her to end her affair. If she ends her affair, I know we will have a chance to fix our marriage. But we cannot fix the marriage as long as she is having an affair.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 06:44 PM
I'm still exposing. The problem is that the OM's family is the kind of family that doesn't care about stuff like this. They are drinking/partiers for the most part and sometimes kind of violent. I don't know how much good it will do to expose to them.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 06:47 PM
The problem that I'm running into is that there isn't much family that has influence or that she sees often at all.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 07:06 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I'm still exposing. The problem is that the OM's family is the kind of family that doesn't care about stuff like this. They are drinking/partiers for the most part and sometimes kind of violent. I don't know how much good it will do to expose to them.

Thats ok. You never know where or who will give you support. However, just the fact that he is having to defend his affair with a married woman makes it all worthwhile. AND, even if some do endorse adultery, it will still make your wife embarrassed to go around them knowing they all know. Exposing to his family will cause huge conflict in the affair.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 07:35 PM
Do y'all think I should call or email the OM?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 11:23 PM
I have been pretty well disappointed in the support from her family in helping kill the affair. Her mom and dad have been the only ones that are even willing to call her. Her grandma basically said that she couldnt really tell her what to do. I guess people just dont want to help as much as I was hoping.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/26/12 11:35 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Do y'all think I should call or email the OM?

AFTER you send his parents and family a message. Did you do that? When you have done that, I would call him up and let him know that there is no future in his affair with your wife. Let him know that he will be eternally hated by your children and won't be accepted by the inlaws. They all know about the affair. And tell him you will be filing on grounds of adultery and will have him subponaed into court to give sworn testimony about his affair. Basically tell him HELL is coming./

Did you call your wife's sister yet?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 12:04 AM
I don't know how to contact his parents. I'm still looking. I think his mom abandoned him when he was young.

I didn't know if it was better to call or email because I want to be sure I tell him everything I need to tell him and I may get angry on the phone and forget. But if that's best...that's what I'll do.

**Edit**
I have already spoken to her sister and filled her in on just about everything.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 12:06 AM
Now since we are both back living at home. How do I behave around her. I have basically been cordial but that's it. I haven't went out of my way to please her in any way. I've been kind of avoiding her in a sense and letting her have her space as well as getting some space for myself.

Advice on how I need to be going about this part right now?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 12:59 AM
I would not lovebust her, but just demand that she end her affair or this will lead to divorce. You shouldn't tolerate her contacting the OM from your home around your kids. Let her know you won't cooperate with any separation schemes and that if this does go to divorce you will be filing on grounds of adultery.

And most definitely CALL or visit the OM. Write out your talking points so you won't lose your train of thought.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 02:19 AM
Things are pretty calm tonight. She has actually talked to me in a normal somewhat considerate way. I have not brought up the issues at all. I'll post back tomorrow morning and update on any progress.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 11:22 AM
I guess people just dont want to help as much as I was hoping.

You've got to appeal to the American psyche - unmitigated and total selfishness! Stop playing fair with her family!

LFH to Grandma: You do realize that the effects of divorce upon young children like YOUR GRANDKIDS are highly negative and destructive. Of course, I'll also be pursuing restrictions on having the kids anywhere near POSOM, which, since she's decided to be with him, will limit their time with HER, and through that, with YOU! I was hoping you'd help me prevent this. If not......
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 12:44 PM
I'm having trouble this morning dealing with the things WW has said over the past few weeks. She has said stuff like "I wanted to leave in the beginning of our marriage", "I have never been able to love anyone like I love OM", "I have been unhappy the whole time".

I don't know whether this is the affair talking or if these things have some truth to them. If they do have truth then how we move past these?

I know I'm thinking WAY into the future of this thing but I guess I'm trying to evaluate whether this is what I want as well. Advice on this?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 04:36 PM
I've been thinking about the best way (for me) to contact the OM and let him know about the negatives of continuing the affair.

MelodyLane, I know you told me to call or visit but what I'm afraid will happen is that I will lose my cool and my temper and things will go south very quickly. If that happens, I know I'll forget to say certain very important things no matter if I have them written down or not. I REALLY want to talk to him to tell him the things I want to say but my fear is that I'll lose control if I do.

So, would emailing him AND Facebooking (to be sure he gets the message)him work as well if I don't think I can keep a cool head if I were to talk to him?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I'm having trouble this morning dealing with the things WW has said over the past few weeks. She has said stuff like "I wanted to leave in the beginning of our marriage", "I have never been able to love anyone like I love OM", "I have been unhappy the whole time".

I don't know whether this is the affair talking or if these things have some truth to them. If they do have truth then how we move past these?

I know I'm thinking WAY into the future of this thing but I guess I'm trying to evaluate whether this is what I want as well. Advice on this?

You need to ignore her comments about your marriage because she is high on her addiction to the OM. She is rewriting history to accommodate her comparison of your marriage to a FANTASY affair. It is like a heroin addict deciding that his past was all boring and useless because he has a new point of comparison. She won't feel like this when her affair crumbles and she falls back in love with you.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
MelodyLane, I know you told me to call or visit but what I'm afraid will happen is that I will lose my cool and my temper and things will go south very quickly. If that happens, I know I'll forget to say certain very important things no matter if I have them written down or not. I REALLY want to talk to him to tell him the things I want to say but my fear is that I'll lose control if I do.

DON'T send him a letter. If you think you will lose your cool, take a friend and confront him face to face. Remember, this guy is a worm and a coward so he will be scared of you. OM are yellow dog cowards. Do you have a friend who is a big bouncer or body builder who will agree to hold you back if you want to punch his lights out?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 05:35 PM
If you send him an email you will signal that you are afraid of him and he will send your email around and make fun of it. You need to go face that punk man to man - with a big friend.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 05:38 PM
Thanks for the encouraging words about the things she is saying. They make me feel pretty hopeless that even if/when the affair ends she will still not love me or be in love with me anymore.

I don't have any big friends like that but I'm gonna concentrate on NOT losing control of my temper over the phone. I very much DISLIKE the OM right now and he's really the last person I want to talk to. I DO want to tell him that it will never work out and that he should leave her alone though because I want my wife back!!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 05:40 PM
Oh and no luck finding his parents yet either.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 05:46 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Thanks for the encouraging words about the things she is saying. They make me feel pretty hopeless that even if/when the affair ends she will still not love me or be in love with me anymore.

I don't have any big friends like that but I'm gonna concentrate on NOT losing control of my temper over the phone. I very much DISLIKE the OM right now and he's really the last person I want to talk to. I DO want to tell him that it will never work out and that he should leave her alone though because I want my wife back!!

I like that idea! I think you will be better off with a phone call. Write out your talking points and be sure and let him know that he needs to leave your wife alone. Don't tell him your feelings or try to reason with him. Just be firm and tell him that you are prepared to make his life HELL if he doesn't buzz off.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Oh and no luck finding his parents yet either.

Keep looking!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 06:17 PM
I'm compiling my list of items that I want to be sure to mention when I call the OM. Anything in particular I need to add?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I'm compiling my list of items that I want to be sure to mention when I call the OM. Anything in particular I need to add?

What does this rat do for a living?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 06:21 PM
I'm trying to verify that but I'm pretty sure he works for the city in our area. Not sure which department (water, power, etc).
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 06:23 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I'm trying to verify that but I'm pretty sure he works for the city in our area. Not sure which department (water, power, etc).

Thanks. I just wanted to know if he was a pastor or a teacher. In certain occupations you can really get them in trouble. Doesn't sound like he is in one of those occupations. Your best bet comes from exposing to his friends and family. If you don't see his parents on there, include a line to his contacts to ask the parents to call you.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 06:25 PM
I've FB'ed 3 of his relatives. He really doesn't have many relatives that are "find-able".
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I've FB'ed 3 of his relatives. He really doesn't have many relatives that are "find-able".

And his married friends? They are a good target.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 06:30 PM
A couple other points that I have been thinking about might be positive points are the facts that I don't really think he wants a "relationship" with my wife...he just wants to get laid and the fact that not many single early 30's guys want to get involved with a woman with 2 kids and an ex that will always be around.

Maybe I'm trying to keep myself positive but I have been thinking about those 2 points quite a bit today.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 06:37 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I don't really think he wants a "relationship" with my wife...he just wants to get laid and the fact that not many single early 30's guys want to get involved with a woman with 2 kids and an ex that will always be around.

That is exactly right. And that is exactly WHY you need to raise holy hell with him. It will not be worth it to him and he will be easy to run off. Cause HAVOC in his life by exposing the affair and calling him up and raising hell. Tell him you will make his life a living hell if he doesn't buzz off. Tell him you will have him dragged into court, etc, etc, etc.

But FIRST send out a bunch more exposure messages to his facebook friends. He needs to be hearing this from his friends.

You might even send his workplace a letter and tell htem that their employee is using company time to pursue an affair with your wife. Use some of the verbiage on the workplace exposure letter. Even though it is not a workplace affair, you can insinuate that they need to investigate this RAT to see if he is using company resources to conduct his affair. [cell phone, email, etc]
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 06:38 PM
Here is the message you send to that POS:

Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 06:40 PM
I totally get your meaning but that made me laugh...which is something I haven't done much of lately.

Thanks ML!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 06:42 PM
Tell him also that because of her affair with him, you will be going after primary custody of the children and making sure your kids are NEVER EVER around his sorry [censored]. That means he gets subpeonaed into court to give testimony about his affair AND all of his email and cell phone records will be subpoenaed under DISCOVERY.

Ask him if he has the funds to hire a good lawyer?

Tell him you won't allow your children to be exposed to such an unfit adult so she will be forced to choose between him and her own children.

Tell him "you will be eternally hated by the inlaws and my children for your part in breaking up this family if it goes that far."
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 06:55 PM
LFH .. your getting some EXCELLENT support here.

Dont forget to take care of yourself too ...

Keep up the good work. You got a GREAT chance of turning this around.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 06:57 PM
I really hope the chances are good. I feel pretty hopeless every time she says that she's done, doesn't want to be here and wants out.

I have a very hard time hearing that from her. It sounds as though there is no chance of her changing her mind because she says the same thing EVERY time the subject comes up.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 07:03 PM
Remember .. thats all fog talk LFH. Of course shes says those things .. its how she feels RIGHT NOW. But as you are probably learning ... feelings follow actions. You keep doing the actions (kill affair while raising holy hell and painting the picture so ugly the OM runs off ... stop LBing and meet her emotional needs as best as you can (so she can see you really do care) and her feelings will follow!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 07:12 PM
MrNiceGuy,

I don't know if meeting her ENs is good right now. She doesn't even want me to hug her. That's what I'm so confused about. I don't know whether to show her that I can meet her ENs right now or just let her have her space and time (at home) to think about what's going on.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 07:13 PM
When I do call the OM, do I give him a chance to respond at the end or just hang up on him?
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 07:15 PM
You just meet the ones she will allow you to meet (conversation, DS,FC .. etc)... in the meantime your killing this affair dead (enforcing your boundries) in the background, james bond style.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
When I do call the OM, do I give him a chance to respond at the end or just hang up on him?

Whenever you feel like it .. really. However, I would call him though after you have sent out all your exposure letters to his FB friends. Just make sure your calm .. and tell him the things ML said for you to tell him. In a calm .. rational matter. Be confident when you speak to him. If you talk to him after your exposure is done .. at least then he cant spin it to his friends before you get to them.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 07:37 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
MrNiceGuy,

I don't know if meeting her ENs is good right now. She doesn't even want me to hug her. That's what I'm so confused about. I don't know whether to show her that I can meet her ENs right now or just let her have her space and time (at home) to think about what's going on.

Just focus on killing her affair and painting a very ugly picture of what divorce will look like. Talk about primary custody and suing on grounds of adultery. Tell her how you won't cooperate at all unless it is to fix the marriage. And be sure and tell her if it comes to that, you WILL NOT BE HER FRIEND. She won't let you meet her needs right now so just do your best and be polite but FIRM.

And don't hang up on rat boy. GEt his response. Remember, you are talking to a COWARD so don't be too rough or he may cry. He is is PUNK and a wimp. Who else would go after a married woman?

Your best bet is to run the OM off.
Posted By: savemymarr Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 07:37 PM
LFH, my WW said ALL of the same things your WW has said like...

we shouldve never married.
i never loved you.
it was all a mistake (5 kids later).

blah, blah, blah. dont believe one word my friend. you are on the right track amigo. keep on going. you have a shot at saving this, but not if you do nothing and dont fight. you need to drive him away. your WW is probly like mine bc she wants to photoshop me out of the picture while i linger in the background paying for things. good luck with that. you are being tested. are you up for the challenge?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 07:38 PM
I'm concentrating on the list of topics and the exposure right now. I would like to call him this week though.

It's been tough to decide on which FB contacts to send the info to.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 07:40 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I'm concentrating on the list of topics and the exposure right now. I would like to call him this week though.

It's been tough to decide on which FB contacts to send the info to.

Don't overanalyze. Just start whipping those babies out!
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 07:41 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
It's been tough to decide on which FB contacts to send the info to.

How about all of them? Then they will ALL know whata guy he really is! See how he likes THEM apples!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 07:42 PM
savemymarr,

I am up to it. With the encouragement that I'm getting here and the fact that I do not want to lose my wife to the OM.

Some times are much harder than others but I'm trying to stay the course.

I'm just sorry that it took me so long to become a believer in the MB way. It's very hard to get to the point of becoming completely untrusting in your wife.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I'm just sorry that it took me so long to become a believer in the MB way. It's very hard to get to the point of becoming completely untrusting in your wife.

We understand!! hug No one wants to believe the worst. Ironically, believing the worst is the only way to save your marriage because facing the truth is how you resolve the problem.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 07:48 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I'm just sorry that it took me so long to become a believer in the MB way. It's very hard to get to the point of becoming completely untrusting in your wife.

Its not uncommon my friend. MB is hard to chew on .. and you cant just start with milk... you have to choke on the solid food here in order for things to progress in such a way for your best chances at getting your wife back. She is going to be HOPPING mad .... and say all sorts of nasty things .. so be prepared to let it slide off your back and not engage when she does. Shes an addict ... and needs your help to get off the crack pipe (POSOM). She WILL thank you LATER when the alien leaves her body and your wife returns.

BUT your seeing the light .. and now is your chance.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 07:49 PM
Now THAT is ironic!

I'm gonna do some more FB exposure tonight from home and tomorrow before I get shut down.

Thanks for the continued encouragement!
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 07:52 PM
And at the very least .. even if his or her FB friends dont support you .. at least YOU will know who the friends of your marriage really are.

People that dont believe in exposure ... are usually that way becuse they are perpatrators themselves in some way shape or form (not always .. but more often than not)
Posted By: savemymarr Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 08:13 PM
i know LFH. this whole experience is extremely humbling. you are broken down. the one person you thought you could trust turns out to be the one person you cannot. do not lose hope. you can make it thru. just follow the advice here. i would like to think that if i had gotten here sooner or followed the advice i was given from the word go then things mightve turned out different. i would not wish what i am going thru on anyone and want for your situation to turn out in the best way possible.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 08:44 PM
Being the analyzer that I am... What if the OM decides to pursue WW out of spite after I call and confront?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 08:51 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Being the analyzer that I am... What if the OM decides to pursue WW out of spite after I call and confront?

He is pursuing her NOW, so what would be the difference? If he continues to pursue her, you continue to make his life HELL. But typically, OM run like the cowards they are when faced with any conflict. They don't want the bother.

And keep in mind that you have best odds of winning. His relationship with your wife is doomed. 95% of affairs die within a few months and of those that make it to marriage, they have a 70% divorce rate. That is because the traits that made them possible, dishonesty, deceit and thoughtlessness destroy the affair. On the other hand, 65% of marriages stay together after affairs. My money is on you!!

I fear for that RAT when you go after him!! Hell is coming his way!
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/27/12 09:12 PM
What if the OM decides to pursue WW out of spite after I call and confront?

Dude, exactly how is he NOT pursuing her now - out of spite or not?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 11:52 AM
Back at it this morning.

I'm having a very difficult time dealing with the anger/resentment that I have for what she did. I keep running the thoughts over and over in my head of how she could say some of the things that she has said and how she willingly allowed another man to have his way with her....twice (as far as I know).

I have to work VERY hard sometimes to keep these thoughts and feelings from allowing myself to just tell her that if she wants him THAT bad then to go on and go to him! Of course, that's not what I want but sometimes I really feel like telling her that if she wants out and wants him so bad then to just get out and don't come back.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 12:21 PM
...just tell her that if she wants him THAT bad then to go on and go to him...sometimes I really feel like telling her that if she wants out and wants him so bad then to just get out and don't come back.

Here's what you do:

1) Tell US those kinds of things. (See, you did good so far!)

2) Get back to work on the PLAN!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 12:45 PM
I have to say that even though I do not fear the OM in the least, I know about some of his family and they have proven to be a rough bunch, so to speak. I am a little concerned that when I send more exposure letters and/or when I call him, they will become involved and potentially do something stupid. Advice on that?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 02:21 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I have to say that even though I do not fear the OM in the least, I know about some of his family and they have proven to be a rough bunch, so to speak. I am a little concerned that when I send more exposure letters and/or when I call him, they will become involved and potentially do something stupid. Advice on that?

Focus on problems that you actually HAVE instead of problems you don't HAVE.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 02:22 PM
Your exposure so far has not been effective. Are you exposing the affair? Have you spoken to all of her family members and asked them to speak to her?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 02:24 PM
I have spoken to her family members. They all appear to be saying that they "can't tell her what to do". There are a few that have been talking to her and telling her that the OM will never be accepted and that he will never be allowed into their homes.

Some are also telling her things like I have been saying in regards to the kids never being able to be around him if she chooses to be with him.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 02:26 PM
Everyone seems to want to "help from afar" if that makes sense.

Honestly, I think she's starting to actually think about whether it's a good choice for her after I told her about filing for custody and that my kids will NEVER be allowed around him...which I meant every word of.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 02:26 PM
And she has no reaction to any of this?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 02:26 PM
I have a meeting to attend for about an hour but will definitely be back on after. I'm having a pretty low point today.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 02:28 PM
Her brother-in-law told me that when he told her that she really should think very hard about what she would be giving up and what she would be getting before she went to him. She told him that she would think about everything.

It appears from the outside (of her head) that nothing has seemed to phase her except for maybe the custody thing.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 02:31 PM
What I have wondered is why she told her family members? She really didn't "spin" the story. She did leave out his name when she told them but so far, everyone that she told had a pretty accurate summary of the story. I then filled in the details for them.

I have also been wondering if she did that to signal in some way to me that she needs help getting "away" from him and the thoughts of him.

She has been quite a bit more cordial and sympathetic in some ways toward me at home lately. Don't know if that means anything at all.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 02:33 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I have to say that even though I do not fear the OM in the least, I know about some of his family and they have proven to be a rough bunch, so to speak. I am a little concerned that when I send more exposure letters and/or when I call him, they will become involved and potentially do something stupid. Advice on that?


lfh, I would stay on this and blow up his world TODAY. You want to cause as much havoc in that affair as possible. You want him to be calling her up screaming about your interference. That will cause huge conflict in the affair. The more conflict you cause in the affair, the faster it will crumble.

I am getting concerned because your actions seem to have no effect whatsoever on the affairees. That is a BAD SIGN. It means you are not effectively hitting the affair. You will know you have effectively dealt a blow to the affair by the reaction. Has there been any reaction at all?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 02:35 PM
No reaction from what I have been able to see which is one reason I am beginning to think nothing I do is going to help.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 02:36 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
What I have wondered is why she told her family members? She really didn't "spin" the story. She did leave out his name when she told them but so far, everyone that she told had a pretty accurate summary of the story. I then filled in the details for them..

But didn't she tell them something like this: my marriage is bad so we are splitting up. And by the way, after I left I got back in contact with OM!"

that sounds much better than the truth: "I am leaving my husband and children to pursue my affair with OM."

She started the affair BEFORE she left you and it is WHY she is leaving. Is she telling these people she is leaving her husband and children to pursue her affair?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 02:37 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
No reaction from what I have been able to see which is one reason I am beginning to think nothing I do is going to help.


Something is wrong..
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 02:37 PM
What did you say to her mother about the affair? EXACTLY?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 02:43 PM
What do you mean by something is wrong?

I'll elaborate on what I told her mother after my meeting. I'm getting kind of worried right now.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 02:45 PM
I actually told her mom to tell me what WW told her and then I filled in the blanks with the rest of the info. Told her that I thought WW was leaving to go back to OM.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 02:47 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I actually told her mom to tell me what Amy told her and then I filled in the blanks with the rest of the info. Told her that I thought WW was leaving to go back to OM.

So you just presented this as speculation instead of a fact and then it comes down to he said/she said? What did she say when you told her you thought she was leaving to go back to OM?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 02:52 PM
She just sighed and said she didnt know what to do. See, her family has had to deal with this guy all through high school and into her early 20s. They know how she gets when she gets involved with him. Her mom told me that she has had to experience the "blank stares" that I am experiencing when trying to talk to WW about this.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 02:53 PM
No. I actually told her that I believed WW was going back to him the first chance she gets and is willing to leave me and give up a large portion of her kids' life in the meantime.
Posted By: LostNtime Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 02:54 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
No reaction from what I have been able to see which is one reason I am beginning to think nothing I do is going to help.

It is possible that they want you to believe that you are having no effect on them so you will stop.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
No. I actually told her that I believed WW was going back to him the first chance she gets and is willing to leave me and give up a large portion of her kids' life in the meantime.

What if you sent them all a group email asking for their help? If this is all out in the open and everyone knows that everyone knows, it may make them more willing to put pressure on her. At the least, your wife will know that she is busted to everyone. Here is a sample email:

Dear friends and family of WW,

I am writing you this message because you are an important person in the lives of xxxx and I. As some of you know, xxxxx has recently asked me for a separation, which has shattered my heart and upset our children. To my shock, I am saddened to have discovered that the reason is because she has been carrying on an affair with a old boyfriend named xxxxx xxxxx who resides in xxxxxx. WW has admitted to me that she has been sleeping with him for some time now. The purpose of the separation is so that she can carry on her affair without my interference.

She refuses to end the affair. I want our marriage to recover from this affair. If you have any influence on my babe, please do what you can to get her to stop this dangerous affair. I want to stay married, but the affair must end. A divorce would be devastating to our children.

As our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence with xxxx to persuade her to end her affair and try to work on our marriage. Our marriage can be salvaged if she would only end the affair. Please support her in doing the right thing. Please support our marriage.

I would so appreciate your support and prayers.

Warmest regards,
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
No. I actually told her that I believed WW was going back to him the first chance she gets and is willing to leave me and give up a large portion of her kids' life in the meantime.

See, this makes it sounds you "think" she might be going back to him when she leaves you. That does not accurately describe the situation. All you are telling her is that you are speculating that she MIGHT be going back to him which means NOTHING.

What does mean something is that SHE IS HAVING AN AFFAIR AND IS LEAVING YOU TO CONDUCT HER AFFAIR. It is really important that you frame this in an accurate and meaningful way so you motivate people to help you.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 03:13 PM
Send that letter I just posted to her mother, dad, grandmother, sisters, brothers in law, close aunts, uncles, friends, pastor.

And then start whipping out those exposure letters to the OMs family. You need to hit this affair HARD.

And when you are done, call up that piece of crap and tell him what I told you to say.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 03:17 PM
Mel's advice here is important because of the "group-think" of folks, as compared to the "do-nothingness" of individuals.

If you know something wrong is being done, say someone being mugged, you might keep it to yourself, alibi-ing that it might not be your place to step up. If, however, you're in a group and EVERYONE sees what's going on, every person, if they choose to be inactive, will have to know that everyone else saw their passivity and knows that basically each one is a coward.

In other words, it might be okay to be a weasel, but no one wants that general reputation.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 03:21 PM
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
In other words, it might be okay to be a weasel, but no one wants that general reputation.

Amen!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 04:39 PM
I am very sorry for being so negative but a man should not have to work this hard to "win" his own wife. I'm pretty dejected right now.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 04:59 PM
I'm finding it difficult to follow all the instructions that I'm getting. Not because I don't want to, but more out of logistical reasons. Some/most of the people that I need to get heavily involved in killing this affair don't really use the computer, much less have email, FB, etc. All I can do with those people is call or go see them.

And because I'm not really sure, what is it that I should be expecting these people to do to help kill this affair? When they are "putting pressure" on my WW, what exactly are they supposed to be doing?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 05:18 PM
lfh, you need to call these people as I instructed and ask them to use their influence to persuade to end her affair. Email those who are on the computer and CALL those that are CLOSER to the situation or are not on the computer.

Sit down and make a list of these people and start calling or emailing them. Your goal is to have as many of them as possible calling her up asking her to end her affair.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 05:19 PM
Send out a group email to those who do have email addresses like I outlined above. That will put pressure on them to do something.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 05:26 PM
For example, when you call a family member, ASK FOR HER ADVICE! And then say something like "you are a very important person in WW's life and I was hoping you would use your influence to persuade her to end her affair and give the marriage a try."
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 06:11 PM
Just for the heck of it I called her sister again to see what the thought process was with not helping. She said that everyone that knows is very upset about this and what she is thinking of doing.

I told her that I didn't think anyone seemed to be concerned enough to want to help out by trying to talk to WW about this. She told me that everyone knows that WW won't really listen to anything anyone has to say about anything because that's the way she has always been. Once she has her mind made up, no one can convince her other wise.

She did say that she and everyone else has talked to WW and told her that what she's doing is wrong, they don't approve and that OM will never be accepted into the family nor will the kids ever be allowed around him.

How can she STILL be thinking that situation is what she wants? This loser doesn't even have a house! He lives with his aunt for God's sake!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Just for the heck of it I called her sister again to see what the thought process was with not helping. She said that everyone that knows is very upset about this and what she is thinking of doing.

I told her that I didn't think anyone seemed to be concerned enough to want to help out by trying to talk to WW about this. She told me that everyone knows that WW won't really listen to anything anyone has to say about anything because that's the way she has always been. Once she has her mind made up, no one can convince her other wise.

She did say that she and everyone else has talked to WW and told her that what she's doing is wrong, they don't approve and that OM will never be accepted into the family nor will the kids ever be allowed around him.

How can she STILL be thinking that situation is what she wants? This loser doesn't even have a house! He lives with his aunt for God's sake!



Also she is STILL thinking about this is "what she wants" because she's in the FOG. She's a foggy wayward.

Trust me when the fog lifts(and it will lift) she will see some clarity.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Just for the heck of it I called her sister again to see what the thought process was with not helping. She said that everyone that knows is very upset about this and what she is thinking of doing.

I told her that I didn't think anyone seemed to be concerned enough to want to help out by trying to talk to WW about this. She told me that everyone knows that WW won't really listen to anything anyone has to say about anything because that's the way she has always been. Once she has her mind made up, no one can convince her other wise.

She did say that she and everyone else has talked to WW and told her that what she's doing is wrong, they don't approve and that OM will never be accepted into the family nor will the kids ever be allowed around him.

How can she STILL be thinking that situation is what she wants? This loser doesn't even have a house! He lives with his aunt for God's sake!

Did you send out the email I developed above? That might motivate them and even if it doesn't, your wife will know that everyone knows.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 08:54 PM
Send out the email to as many family members as possible and cc your wife. Then get your messages sent out to the OM's family. Did you call the aunt he lives with?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 09:11 PM
Trying to find out her name.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 09:17 PM
You're not taking this seriously at all, are you?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 09:24 PM
ML,
Pardon me but what the heck else can I do while trying to not get fired while i do all this at work? Meanwhile I cant get any support family and friends. What else am I supposed to be doing.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 09:32 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
ML,
Pardon me but what the heck else can I do while trying to not get fired while i do all this at work? Meanwhile I cant get any support family and friends. What else am I supposed to be doing.

Can you do the things that I have exhaustively and repeatedly posted? And perhaps be a little proactive? It is your marriage, not mine, after all. It is in your interest to be proactive and to get the OM's aunts name and expose to his family without being prodded to death.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 09:42 PM
Contrary to what you think I'm doing the best I can. If everyone had email or FB this would be very easy. But I'm having to basically do private investigation work to find half these people and then they dont even want to help.

With all due respect, it's very easy for you to be on that end and tell me that I'm not trying.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/28/12 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
With all due respect, it's very easy for you to be on that end and tell me that I'm not trying.

With all due respect, I have done this myself. And helped many, many others do it. I am not telling you to do anything I haven't done myself. I don't think I have ever seen a less productive "exposure." Usually when one is proactive, they have made progress and are actually pursuing opportunities instead of looking for reasons to NOT expose. If you want this to be of any effect, you are going to have to get proactive and creative. And actually do something.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/29/12 01:54 AM
Quote
Affair was acknowledged and is being dealt with. The affair is over.
rotflmao
Uh-huh. That's what all the waywards say.

I'm just getting caught up on your thread. I suspect ML has the time to school you in how far off you are are this one. Keep your mouth shut and listen carefully to her and the rest of the members here. If you want to save your M, of course. smile
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/31/12 02:27 PM
For what it's worth, I think I have finally succeeded in getting some support from the exposure. I called the OM and he pretty much ran for cover. He has removed her from his FB account and they have had no more contact in about 2 weeks.

WW was pretty mad last night and blamed me (again) for everything. She basically told me that everything I am doing has pushed her further away. I couldn't take being made out to be the bad guy in this again so I left for a while. I slept in the basement room last night.

This morning she left for her sisters house for an extended separation. Nothing I can do about it. i'm pretty much ready to give up because everything I have done has apparently been the wrong thing in her eyes and has apparently pushed her further away.

I don't really expect anyone to reply to me since I have not "followed the rules to a T". I just thought I would take a chance here and see if the general thought was that my marriage is over because I feel as though it is at this point.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/31/12 05:14 PM
So whom else have you exposed to?

These would be a great reads for you.
DoormatNoMore's Thread
DoorMatNoMore's Thread 1yr out
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/31/12 05:16 PM
As many FB contacts as possible and as many of her friends and family as possible.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/31/12 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
As many FB contacts as possible and as many of her friends and family as possible.

Ok so you let exposure do it's work.
Who of his family did you expose? In the book SAA have you read the case of John and Sue?

Are you doing both carrot and stick of plan A?
Have you read this? Pep's wayword fog decoded
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/31/12 05:34 PM
I did let exposure do it's work as best it could. I honestly think calling the OM made a HUGE difference. She was very upset when she got the FB alert that he had "de-friended" her.

I exposed to all I could get in contact with. His step-mom and some cousins. His family is pretty much non-existent.

I haven't seen Plan A completely. I'll search the site for it and I'll read the post you gave.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/31/12 05:37 PM
Instead of leaving when she babbles her foggy talk are you using the tips that Pepperband talks about in here? Pep's Carrot and Stick

Say things like... "I'm sorry you feel that way you want a cookie"
"I'm not the bad guy in this M, I'm fighting for my M and I will not have more than 2 in this M and that's you and me".

I understand if you have to leave to avoid AO but do not leave your home.
Men Do not leave your home by Melodylane
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/31/12 05:37 PM
...see if the general thought was that my marriage is over...

It matters not at all what we think. You marriage will be over when one of three things happens:

1) One of you dies.
2) The judge's gavel comes down on the final divorce settlement.
3) YOU decide to end your efforts at recovery.

[Linked Image from climbaz.com]
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/31/12 05:49 PM
My gosh that Carrot and Stick post is dead on with just about everything she has said to me. That is uncanny.

My fear is that she is already "so gone" in her mind that she will not return.

I'll start implementing these things immediately!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/31/12 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
My gosh that Carrot and Stick post is dead on with just about everything she has said to me. That is uncanny.

My fear is that she is already "so gone" in her mind that she will not return.

I'll start implementing these things immediately!

Like NG says she's not gone until....
So don't worry about that.

Have you read SAA, John and Sue? Sue was the Wayward wife and left to be with her OM and came back to John and they are doing wonderful today. Read it.

All waywards speak from the same script.
Remember allnwaywards
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/31/12 06:06 PM
So her leaving should not "worry" me too much right now? Because I kinda feel like it's the end.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/31/12 06:13 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
So her leaving should not "worry" me too much right now? Because I kinda feel like it's the end.

You're fighting for your M and so it's not over until you sign the D papers.

You need to throw all your energy into killing the affair and exposing it loud and proud. Stop all LB's, start filling her lovebank with deposits filling her EN. Do not be a doormat, but if you want to throw in the towel because you " think" shes done then that's on you, if it was my M I'd go kicking and fighting for mine by following the MB plans.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/31/12 06:16 PM
Can you talk to her sister about her going and staying with her?

Is your SIL going to support your M?

Are you sure she isn't going to meet with OM? Did you put a GPS on her car?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/31/12 06:30 PM
Talk to her sister about her not allowing her to stay with her?

Yes, SIL is supportive. She actually called OM before I did...although I didn't know that until after I called him.

I'm 100% sure she is not going to meet or talk with him. SIL also said she was going to help watch out for that too.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/31/12 07:25 PM
Also, her top 3 ENs are conversation, O&H, and affection. She tells me that she just basically wants me to leave her be for now. So I guess I just do the best I can when the opportunity presents to fill an EN huh?

But I can start on the Carrot portion ASAP!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/31/12 08:29 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Also, her top 3 ENs are conversation, O&H, and affection. She tells me that she just basically wants me to leave her be for now. So I guess I just do the best I can when the opportunity presents to fill an EN huh?

But I can start on the Carrot portion ASAP!
Good so SIL is in your corner. Good job.
Has she said anything to your WW to put pressure on her?

Yes get working on the carrot of. Plan A but remember to keep giving the stick also.

Also have you read these? Read all 5 letters by Dr. H.
Unfaithful Wife #1
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/31/12 08:36 PM
SIL and BIL have both put pressure on her about the affair. She and the OM both know how VERY difficult it would be for them to be together. She also knows that she will be choosing between her kids and him ALL the time because I have told both of them I will have a court order to keep my kids away from him.

The one big thing I think is gonna keep her from going to him is the fact about the kids. She couldn't even be away from the for 2 days before coming back home a week ago.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/31/12 08:40 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
SIL and BIL have both put pressure on her about the affair. She and the OM both know how VERY difficult it would be for them to be together. She also knows that she will be choosing between her kids and him ALL the time because I have told both of them I will have a court order to keep my kids away from him.

The one big thing I think is gonna keep her from going to him is the fact about the kids. She couldn't even be away from the for 2 days before coming back home a week ago.

Then keep remembering that, when you think she may be done.

Have you thought having her do a post nuptial that would give you full custody if she was to have another affair or resume this one?

Good job and what did the POSOM say to you and SIL?
What is your plan on meeting her EN?
Did you read those Q&A that I posted to you?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/31/12 08:42 PM
Be right back to post. Have to feed 4month old.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 03/31/12 08:54 PM
I am working on a plan to meet her ENs. It's gonna be hard with her not around. I can do the conversation one pretty easy because I can do that every time we talk.

The O&H I can also do, but the affection one is gonna be hard. I started trying to meet this one already and she shut me down. She said it made her feel awkward. See I have been guilty of emotional neglect for quite a while. This is actually the thing that worries me that might be the factor that keeps her from coming back.

She tells me that she has been neglected emotionally for so long that she feels like she may have already "moved on" in her mind and heart. That's what worries me more than the affair.

Does that make any sense?

Just a side note...she has already seen and heard how adamant and determined I am to make the changes that she needs. Those changes will actually make me a happier and better person in the process.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/01/12 12:31 AM
Quote
She was very upset when she got the FB alert that he had "de-friended" her.
Huh? FB doesn't send alerts when it unfriends someone. Are you watching her Facebook account? This is very suspicious. redflag
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/01/12 01:33 AM
I was watching it and he was removed from her list. I made sure he was.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/01/12 03:07 AM
LFH,

Actually affection is an easy one. Have you read this? Emotional Need Affection

She is seeing if your "changes" are for real and going to stay.

Did you read the articles I posted about unfaithful wives? All 5 of them?

You're continuing to make sure the affair is dead?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/01/12 11:54 AM
I have read the articles and reread them to be sure I didnt miss anything.

I'll read the one one posted here as well.

One of the things that we have always had issues with is my going to church with her. Not that I dont believe or anything. I have just never been a huge fan of people who do church on Sunday and then sinning on Monday. I am a firm believer in religion, spirituality and God. So when she comes to pick up the kids this morning for church and if she asks what I'm doing today I may tell her that I'm going to church by myself. It's something I've been thinking about for a little while and I know it's something she has always wanted.

That has been my fear with all the changes that I vow to make to make me a better person and more "desirable" to her. I have been afraid that she will not believe that the changes are genuine.

I'll read the EN post you just gave me.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/01/12 12:07 PM
So even though she's telling me that she just wants me to leave her alone so I don't push her further away I should still try to do the "little" things every opportunity I get to show my affection for her?

Leaving "have a good day" notes, "thinking of you" notes, etc? She doesn't really want me touching her because she says it makes her feel awkward.

This part really confuses me as to what I should do. I know what I WANT to do, but I don't want to push her further away either.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/01/12 12:26 PM
Smothering and making LB deposits are not the same.

There are many ways to make LB's. Help around the house, help with kids, doing things for her. Many needs can be met without touching. And there are many levels of touching. Make sure it's simple touching for now.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/01/12 01:07 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I have read the articles and reread them to be sure I didnt miss anything.

I'll read the one one posted here as well.

One of the things that we have always had issues with is my going to church with her. Not that I dont believe or anything. I have just never been a huge fan of people who do church on Sunday and then sinning on Monday. I am a firm believer in religion, spirituality and God. So when she comes to pick up the kids this morning for church and if she asks what I'm doing today I may tell her that I'm going to church by myself. It's something I've been thinking about for a little while and I know it's something she has always wanted.

That has been my fear with all the changes that I vow to make to make me a better person and more "desirable" to her. I have been afraid that she will not believe that the changes are genuine.

I'll read the EN post you just gave me.

I agree with the Road on not smothering her.

Also about the Church issue, this is something that would need to be resolved if you save your marriage you would need to POJA it. Dr. Harley talks about it here in this article Conflicts of Faith part 2

When she picks up the kids today, will she be taking them to Church with her? If she is and you want to go, why not go with her and the kids?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/01/12 02:30 PM
The main reason why I didn't want to ask her if I could go with her is because I think it would be too much "invasion" in her eyes right now.

Going to church is something that I've been thinking about anyway and I was hoping that by her seeing that I am willing to go by myself it would resonate with her a little.

I wasn't overly "pushy" while I was here this morning. I was cheerful, cordial, nice to what she wanted to talk about. I did lightly touch her arm and tell her that I still love her but then I moved on. I didn't linger or do anything else.

As she was leaving, I told her that I hoped she had a good day. She reciprocated and told me that she hoped I had a good night and that she would see me in the morning when she dropped the kids off.

What I did find interesting was that she must have seen my shirt on the ironing board. She said to me " I guess it's not appropriate for me to ask what you have planned for today is it?" I didn't acknowledge the point of whether it was appropriate or not but just told her that I had been thinking about going to a local church and was going to do that and then go to my parents' house. Later I would go to the grocery store and then I was going to do a mass cleaning of the house.

I was trying to keep it light but let her know some of the things I was planning to do which might hopefully deposit in her LB.

Don't know how I did but hopefully it made some kind of impact.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/03/12 12:25 AM
I'm keeping on keeping on with my strategy of depositing into her LB every chance I get, but it's hard not to get discouraged.

She was talking tonight when she picked up the kids about trading her SUV for a vehicle cheaper on gas. That's not what worried me. What did worry me was the fact that she was talking about space not being the issue right now, but money was.

I know that sounds pretty meaningless to everyone, but my fear is still that she is setting everything up to get herself in a better position before she files for divorce.

Am I just continuing to be paranoid?
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/03/12 12:34 AM
No, all WW considering divorce are like that at some point.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/03/12 12:44 AM
I know I'm early into the stage that we're in, but how long does this last on average before the WW might decide to come back and work on things?

Or before I might see SOME improvement/progress?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/03/12 02:33 PM
I've just about finished reading Fall In Love Stay In Love and I was wondering if anyone thought it would be a good idea to ask WW if she would be willing to read it?

Let me know what you think either way because after reading this book, I have realized that MANY areas apply to our situation. I thought she might get a different outlook on some things if she were to read it as well, but I didn't want her to think I was being pushy.
Posted By: markos Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/03/12 02:42 PM
If she's not yet expressing interest in working on things, I don't think it would be very helpful, because the battle for your wife's heart is not usually fought on an intellectual level, but on an emotional level. In other words, what she's lacking is mostly not the information about how to fix the marriage; what she's lacking is the emotional belief that fixing the marriage is possible.

You provide that in Plan A as you demonstrate willingness to protect her and meet her emotional needs. Eventually her emotions catch up, and then her intellect catches up and believes that recovering the marriage is a possibility.

Don't try to force that. Husbands are usually on the wrong track when they are trying to educate their wives.

In Plan A, you just let her know that you want her to join you in a program of marital recovery. No more details than that until she ends the affair and expresses willingness to work on your marriage.
Posted By: markos Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/03/12 02:49 PM
Looking through the last few dozen posts, I get the sense that something is missing in your "stick" of Plan A. I'm not sure what it is, but something is missing. Is her affair out in the open? Everybody is talking about it freely and knows everybody else knows? They know from YOU telling them, not from her telling them?

If this is a work affair, has it been exposed at work?
Posted By: markos Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/03/12 02:51 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
You need to throw all your energy into killing the affair and exposing it loud and proud.

Bingo. Don't stop this.

Quote
Stop all LB's, start filling her lovebank with deposits filling her EN.

Do this, but recognize that in an active affair, her Love Bank is not really open to deposits. Meeting emotional needs alone won't end her affair, so you need to cause trouble in the affair!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/03/12 03:05 PM
Markos,

I'm convinced at this point that the affair is over. Especially the physical part. Now I'm sure the emotional part is still lingering and I can't force that part away.

I am meeting what ENs that I can with her not living here. We are not arguing and fighting anymore mostly because I refuse to. We have been very cordial when talking lately. She's telling me that she needs to sort out her feelings toward me right now to see if there are enough feelings left after being emotionally neglected for so long.

I do believe that the affair has ended though.
Posted By: markos Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/03/12 03:20 PM
Is she still in contact with the OM?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/03/12 03:33 PM
No. After I spoke to him and her sister spoke to him he has told her that he didn't want to talk to her or see her again. Her sister has also been "watching" out for any contact.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/10/12 03:12 PM
I just wanted to check in and be sure I understand what I'm being told.

Even though we are separated and she tells me that she just wants me to leave her alone right now, I should NOT leave her alone? I should send her texts, emails, notes, etc to let her know that I love her and am thinking about her and things like that?

I'm just torn about knowing what I should do. Should I leave her be and let her think about things or should I "keep the pressure on" with my $LB deposits even though she tells me she wants to be left alone.

I definitely want to do all those things but I don't want to jeopardize the possibility that she is actually thinking of coming back to work on this but needs to clear her mind right now without my interference.

She definitely knows how I feel about her and what I am willing to do but I just wanted to get everyone's take on what they thought I should be doing right now.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/14/12 03:12 PM
Wife just came by to pick up the kids and she wanted to talk.

Do y'all believe SHE just accused ME of having an affair????!!!! WTH???

I think she may be coming out of withdrawal and back into Conflict. I tried to keep my cool throughout the conversation, but lost it a little when she accused ME of having an affair before all this came up.

She told me that she sees me differently because of all the stuff I have done during this time like the exposure, tracking and stuff like that. I just told her that I was sorry but I had to do what I thought was right to try to regain the trust I had in her.

Didn't know what else to say to the things she was saying.
Posted By: My4Loves Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/14/12 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I just wanted to check in and be sure I understand what I'm being told.

Even though we are separated and she tells me that she just wants me to leave her alone right now, I should NOT leave her alone? I should send her texts, emails, notes, etc to let her know that I love her and am thinking about her and things like that?

I'm just torn about knowing what I should do. Should I leave her be and let her think about things or should I "keep the pressure on" with my $LB deposits even though she tells me she wants to be left alone.

I definitely want to do all those things but I don't want to jeopardize the possibility that she is actually thinking of coming back to work on this but needs to clear her mind right now without my interference.

She definitely knows how I feel about her and what I am willing to do but I just wanted to get everyone's take on what they thought I should be doing right now.

Yes ... that is Plan A in a nutshell. She needs you to chase her and woo her ... she needs to see you as the best possible option. When you fell in love, what was it about you that she loved? Regain that man.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/14/12 05:30 PM
Is it normal that she infuriates me so much right now that I don't know if I can be around her?

She is basically accusing me of being the root of the problems, not the affair.

Am I just supposed to sit back and smile at the crazy things she is saying to me right now?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/14/12 07:55 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Do y'all believe SHE just accused ME of having an affair????!!!! WTH???

I think she may be coming out of withdrawal and back into Conflict. I tried to keep my cool throughout the conversation, but lost it a little when she accused ME of having an affair before all this came up.

She told me that she sees me differently because of all the stuff I have done during this time like the exposure, tracking and stuff like that. I just told her that I was sorry but I had to do what I thought was right to try to regain the trust I had in her.

The affair is STILL ON, I assure you. Her anger about your snooping and the exposure is all a sign of the fog, which is caused by the affair. She is trying to throw you off her scent by accusing you of an affair.

I would continue to snoop like a bloodhound and expose when you find evidence of contact.

In the meantime, just be as pleasant as possible and stay in constant contact with her.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/14/12 07:56 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Is it normal that she infuriates me so much right now that I don't know if I can be around her?

She is basically accusing me of being the root of the problems, not the affair.

Am I just supposed to sit back and smile at the crazy things she is saying to me right now?

She is trying to distract you. Just smile and tell her you don't want that old marriage, but want a new marriage that is based on openness and honesty.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/14/12 08:37 PM
ML,

When you say the affair is still on do you mean physically or emotionally? I am fairly sure that she hasn't let it go emotionally but I am as convinced as I can be right now that there has been no contact.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/14/12 08:40 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
ML,

When you say the affair is still on do you mean physically or emotionally? I am fairly sure that she hasn't let it go emotionally but I am as convinced as I can be right now that there has been no contact.

lfh, why are you convinced there is no contact? Her entire demeanor says otherwise. The fog is still very, very thick and that tells me the affair is still on. That and the fact that she is trying to manipulate you into not snooping on her tells me she is hiding something.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/14/12 08:46 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Is it normal that she infuriates me so much right now that I don't know if I can be around her?

She is basically accusing me of being the root of the problems, not the affair.

Am I just supposed to sit back and smile at the crazy things she is saying to me right now?

Yes waywards talk crazy talk and all from the same script. Read this.
Craziest things to come out of a Wayward's Piehole

Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/14/12 08:51 PM
One of the main reasons I don't belive there has been any contact is because the POSOM doesn't want any contact. He has told her so and she knows that. He knows that there will be lawyers all over him as well as myself. He was quite concerned when he spoke to WW SIL that I was trying to contact him to get violent.
He was pretty much disinterested after that. I am convinced of that.

Even though I do agree that she is showing signs of not being completely done with the A, I believe it's just the emotional part now. She has a very deep emotional connection to the POSOM.

Does that make any sense ML?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/14/12 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
One of the main reasons I don't belive there has been any contact is because the POSOM doesn't want any contact. He has told her so and she knows that. He knows that there will be lawyers all over him as well as myself. He was quite concerned when he spoke to WW SIL that I was trying to contact him to get violent.
He was pretty much disinterested after that. I am convinced of that.

THAT is not convincing at all. Any halfwit POSOM would be clever enough to tell you and others he doesn't want contact and then crawl further underground. Do you have any way of actually verifying no contact? If she is hiding out from you and her sister, how would she contact loserboy? A secret cell phone? Where and when would she have access to a landline? Doesn't she come in the house to babysit the kids during the day?

Do you have any access to her computer?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/14/12 09:04 PM
I do have access to her computer and havent seen anything in quite a while. She really has no time to physically meet him anywhere becuse she works late and then comes to her sister's house. They have been monitoring here comings and goings.

Since we are separated I havent been able to monitor as closely as before. So I cant say for 100% that there has been no contact.

She has actually begun wanting to talk things through within the past couple days which also leads me to believe that she might be coming around. I am still VERY cautious and reluctant about believing her. All I can do is believe her actions and what actual facts I can get.

For what it's worth, I dont know if the POSOM in this case WANTS her bad enough to continue pursuing. He had actually told her in some of their texts that he did t want a relationship with her nor would he be waiting for her if we didnt work. He basically shot her down after he got what he wanted.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/14/12 09:12 PM
lfh, its very possible the affair is still on via her computer or a secret cell phone so I would keep your eyes peeled. She could also be calling him from work.

Quote
I am still VERY cautious and reluctant about believing her. All I can do is believe her actions and what actual facts I can get.

And her actions are not believable, which is why I suggest watching her closely. If you can get a VAR and a GPS on her car, that would be great.

In the meantime, just keep focusing on making yourself as attractive as possible.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/14/12 09:22 PM
ML,

I understand and I will continue to make myself as appealing as possible.

I know I have been a "hard sell" with all this stuff up until now and I apologize for that, but I do believe that I am starting to see small "glimpses" of my real wife through all that FOG. I'm not letting my guard down by any means, but I am trying to pay attention to those short times when I think I see her in there.

Today was very interesting to say the least. After she left this morning I was pretty angry and she knew it. She called me 6 times and I wouldn't pick up the phone because I knew it would go no where. She then texted me and asked me to please answer the phone. So I do believe that she is trying to maybe see through those short breaks in the FOG.

I know I don't know much at all about dealing with this and that has been proven over and over again on this forum. I may end up eating more crow but I just feel like the physical affair is over and that they have not communicated. Now, I do not by any means believe he is out of her head. I don't even know if that will ever happen.

I will continue to be as attractive as possible and will try to play as nice as I can.

Again, thanks to everyone for the continued support on here. I'll update when something else comes up.

She wants to talk more sometime this weekend so I'll let y'all know what happens.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/14/12 09:28 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I know I don't know much at all about dealing with this and that has been proven over and over again on this forum. I may end up eating more crow but I just feel like the physical affair is over and that they have not communicated. Now, I do not by any means believe he is out of her head. I don't even know if that will ever happen.

lfh, I am not convinced at all. And I am puzzled why you qualify this with the word "physical?" You do understand if they are in touch via phone, email or smoke signal, that the affair is ongoing, right? An affair does not have to be in person to be ongoing. And you may be right, that contact has ended, but I am not convinced at all. That is why I need you to keep watching and don't believe or assume anything.

Quote
She wants to talk more sometime this weekend so I'll let y'all know what happens.

I think this is a great sign and I want to give you a script. Now it is up to you to stop waiting for her and take the lead. She may not follow right now, but you need to PRESENT a plan to lead your marriage out of the ditch. Here is how I would present this to her:

Set her down and explain to her that you want to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and that you won�t stay in a loveless marriage. Tell her you are willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness. In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take to keep you interested:

1. end all contact with the OM for life

2. no more nights apart or going out without each other - create a healthy, integrated lifestyle

3. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc

4. no more opposite sex friendships

5. complete honesty about her affair<s> � passing a polygraph if needed

6. commit to the Marriage Builders program for recovery as outlined in the book Surviving an Affair.

Tell her "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage." Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on her willingness and ability to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. She must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now she has failed. Unless she makes a 180 degree turn in her approach to what it means to be a wife, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage.

You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking this approach, because if she won't do these things, you will have lost nothing except a loveless, abusive marriage.

Unless you use this program to create a much better marriage than the one you had before the affair, you are likely looking at repeat affairs. So don't even think you can get away with sweeping the affair under the rug and going back to what you had before. What you had before led to the affair!

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/14/12 09:30 PM
Your wife is still drunk on her affair and needs your leadership. This is where I would focus for now. Let her know you will not stay in a loveless marriage for long. She needs to know you won't be sitting around for long.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/14/12 10:42 PM
I was actually doing good leading this mornin until she accused me of having an affair. I pretty much lost control then. I didnt really want to talk to her anymore after that and she left.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/14/12 10:46 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I was actually doing good leading this mornin until she accused me of having an affair. I pretty much lost control then. I didnt really want to talk to her anymore after that and she left.

Read these and you'll see waywards all talk from the same script.
Craziest things to come out of a wayward's Piehole
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/15/12 09:33 PM
She's definitely playing games/testing me.

After we talked/argued yesterday morning and she left I was very angry and she knew it when she left. She tried to call me about 6 times and I wouldn't answer the phone because I was so angry I knew the conversation wouldn't go anywhere. She finally texted me to say that "she wished I would talk to her".

I she called a few more times and then texted me asking me "to please answer the phone" which I didn't. I texted her back and told her that I didn't feel like talking because I was very upset. After that text from me she basically said that she just wanted to talk about what was said that morning. She said that "it seems like I only want to talk when I want to". To that I told her that "she is the one that only wants to talk and can leave the house for a separation when she wants to."

At that point she said that she would respect my space and that maybe we could talk in a couple days when we both had time to breath. I told her that I would be around, except for church today, when she got ready to talk because that's all I wanted us to do was to talk through all this mess.

I had actually expected her to either call or come by today to talk and she hasn't. I feel like she is playing games and/or testing me. I think she's wanting me to contact her.

Now, in a normal situation, which nothing lately has been normal, I would contact her to see if she wanted to talk. I feel like an idiot asking for an opinion on here about what to do but I don't want to seem desperate at this point nor do I want to miss out on an opportunity to talk with her while she's willing.

What do you think I should do? I feel like she's waiting to see if I'll call her like I always do since this has come up.

I HATE playing these little mind games. I'm a very straight forward kind of person.

*edit* I meant to also say that I thought this was a game/test because after calling 6 times and texting me, once I responded, she wanted to wait a couple days until we "had time to breath" before we talked.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/16/12 01:44 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
*edit* I meant to also say that I thought this was a game/test because after calling 6 times and texting me, once I responded, she wanted to wait a couple days until we "had time to breath" before we talked.

She is playing a game and you have rightly keyed in on this. She wants to know you are there waiting to be her option when she wants you. The bad thing about all this is that I can see your lovebank being depleted. My suggestion is to stop reacting to her when she plays these games and take the lead. Take the lead by inviting her over and giving her the talk I gave you. Let her know you will give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness but that chance won't be there forever. Tell her if she doesn't commit to the marriage, this will lead to divorce.

See, she believes you are still an option and will be sitting there waiting for her WITHOUT CONDITIONS. You need to give her your conditions. Your wife thinks she has you under control, but when you show her that you are in full control of your life, she will stand up and pay attention.

I would not chase her. Focus on giving her the attention she wants when she does something GOOD, not something bad. When she tries to manipulate you, don't reward her or allow her to get away with that.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/16/12 01:52 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
*edit* I meant to also say that I thought this was a game/test because after calling 6 times and texting me, once I responded, she wanted to wait a couple days until we "had time to breath" before we talked.

I would play it this way. When she calls, let her know that you need to have a serious talk and have come to a decision. Ask her to come over some time this week. When she comes over, lay out the talk I gave you. And I do want you to tell her that if these conditions are not met that this will lead to divorce. She needs to know that is her future otherwise. And I assure you it is, because your marriage will never recover unless she meets those conditions.

See, she believes that she can come back on HER CONDITIONS. You need to disabuse her of that notion.

Another thing you can do is paint a very ugly bleak picture of her future if this does go to divorce. Tell her you will be filing on grounds of adultery and will have the OM subpoeanaed to court along with his cell phone records and emails. And be sure and tell her that you won't be her "friend" if it ever comes to that. It is REAL IMPORTANT to say this because the WW fantasy is that she can replace you and the way to assuage her guilt is to remain "friends" with you.

Take control of your life, lfh. Take back the reigns of your marriage and give her your conditions. She will be shocked because she believes you will take her back under any conditions.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/16/12 05:14 PM
Oh my god she can and does make me so angry. She called me this morning to "interrogate" me for the third time in a week for doing something regarding the kids without telling her about it. These were not major things. Today she was mad because I called just to find out how much their tuition was.

She was mad because I didnt tell her. I only called last Friday and didnt talk to her until Sat morning when she accused me of having an affair. At that time I wasnt really thinking about telling her about their tuition.

So I told her on the phone (wrongly, I know) that I was done being accused of being the bad guy in all this and I didnt want to talk about it anymore. I hung up.

She has called me 3 times and just now texted me. She said "I called and left a message but you know that. I get the message loud and clear. I wont bother you anymore."

I know shes expecting me to call or text but I'm not going to. I am pretty angry right now and it would not go well. Besides that I'm not going to give her that control.

I do feel like she is beginning to want to communicate and I dont want to miss that opportunity, but I am tired of her playing these games with me.

ML, you are right when you say my Love Bank is getting dangerously low.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/17/12 02:26 PM
I see what all you're saying but to me at this point, she doesn't seem to WANT to come back right now...or maybe at all. Now, I have seen some VERY mixed signals lately so I'm more optimistic for the most part that she is coming around to being open to working on things.

I guess my question is how can I be sure that my efforts won't backfire if she's not sure she even WANTS to come back?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/30/12 01:33 PM
She's been out of the house for about a month now. We had a talk last Friday and basically the main message that came out of our talk was that she says she's happy right now where she's at.

So that upset me pretty bad. Bad enough to where it made me angry because it hurt. So I had another talk with her over the weekend telling her that I can't believe that my emotional neglect is the main reason and is worth giving up everything we have built and everything we have (family, house, life). I go on to tell her the things ML said to tell her. I also made sure she understood that I am still open to repairing our marriage but I am not going to sit around and wait on her to decide whether I am worthy or not. I told her that at this point the only option that she is giving me is to just forget about her and what she's doing and move on with myself.

What was interesting was that when I told her that I need to move on, she said "so you want to move on with someone else?"

All she had to say to all of this is "ok". I know it's only been a month of separation. She has changed a little in that she is communicating with me. She has this over-zealous desire to not upset me or make me mad that I don't understand. So I'm not really sure what I should be doing now.

I have been following C&S plan but have slipped up on some Love Busters. It's very hard not to be angry. So do I just keep doing C&S/avoiding love busters/rewarding when she does good and just start living for me and my kids and just let her have her time and space?

Oh yea...she also knows without any shadow of a doubt that there will be NO friendship if this ends in divorce. I really want us to be able to give this another run and try to repair/rebuild everything but I'm running out of ideas.

One more note...she also STILL says and honestly believes (it appears) that her loss of feelings/love for me is the main issue. I'm assuming that means she is still high on the affair.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/30/12 02:06 PM
I have no doubt the affair is still going strong. But what is C and S?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/30/12 02:09 PM
Oh sorry ML. Carrot and Stick.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/30/12 02:09 PM
So do I just sit back and let her "get it out of her system so to speak?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/30/12 02:16 PM
P.s. you have to stop the lovebusters. I mean it; you cannot afford any lb's right now. You have a huge advantage over the OM so you have to be strategic about this and avoid handing him an advantage by lovebusting her. When you do that, you make him look better and give her justification for her affair.

And yes, she has lost her feelings for you. That is why you should be doing an excellent Plan A.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/30/12 02:18 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
So do I just sit back and let her "get it out of her system so to speak?

Is there anything more you can do to bust up this affair and run that RAT off?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/30/12 02:18 PM
So I should be like she's the love of my life and be as nice and kind to her as she'll let me? That's how I want to be toward her but I thought that would make her think that I am waiting around on her or something.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/30/12 02:19 PM
I don't think there's anything else I can do about it. I REALLY don't think they are seeing each other. I think she just has him or the idea of what it would be like with him stuck in her head right now.

**Edit** I also REALLY don't think they're talking either. Although I can't prove this one, but I really think she knows it will not work out.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/30/12 02:21 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
So I should be like she's the love of my life and be as nice and kind to her as she'll let me? That's how I want to be toward her but I thought that would make her think that I am waiting around on her or something.

You be very nice and kind but let her know that this will lead to divorce if she doesn't end her affair and commit to the marriage. You told her your conditions, so now focus on wooing her back. Look for any opportunity to kill the affair. I suspect it has gone further underground.

Do you live in a no fault divorce state?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/30/12 02:23 PM
I've checked into the no fault deal and from what I can tell I do.

So, by wooing do you mean kind of like what I did when we first got together? I don't mean to sound like an idiot. I just want to be sure I completely understand so I don't screw this up any worse.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/30/12 02:25 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I don't think there's anything else I can do about it. I REALLY don't think they are seeing each other. I think she just has him or the idea of what it would be like with him stuck in her head right now.

**Edit** I also REALLY don't think they're talking either. Although I can't prove this one, but I really think she knows it will not work out.

See, I ain't buying it. She is acting EXACTLY as if there is contact. She is not done with this affair. She could be contacting him daily via email, text or cell phone. Just the fact that she doesn't want to come home and work on this tells me the affair is still going. She has always known it wouldn't work out logically, but that never stops a wayward from getting her fix
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/30/12 02:26 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I've checked into the no fault deal and from what I can tell I do.

So, by wooing do you mean kind of like what I did when we first got together? I don't mean to sound like an idiot. I just want to be sure I completely understand so I don't screw this up any worse.

Yep, you got it! You do not sound like an idiot at all. That is a good question. smile
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/30/12 02:29 PM
I'll get started on it today.

So what advice on what to do about it if the affair is actually still going on other than find any opportunity to kill it? It's gonna be pretty hard to woo with the thought in my mind that she's still "with" him.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/30/12 04:08 PM
ML,
Im gonna do what you tell me but if I told her that I was not gonna sit around and wait on her and then I woo her like we're dating wont that send mixed signals? Before you told me this, i was thinking I should play "aloof" and make like I wasnt thinking of her all the time.

Its weird because I have gotten more reaction/interest from her when I ignore her.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/30/12 04:45 PM
The reason I ask that question is because sometimes lately I have felt like she is using me or taking advantage of me because I have been doing a lot of stuff for her that I felt like was being nice or helping her.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/30/12 04:53 PM
The thing is LFH .. is you just continue being you. HOwever .. What you dont do is be a doormat .. be kind .. be available only when it suits YOU.

YOU are the man! .. you have things to do/ take care of .. and even though you love your wife you dont got time for her games. If she is being pleasant be pleasant back. You do want to display to her that you can be he man she has always wanted .. display to her that YOU are the better choice but dont allow her to interfere with your self respect and dont allow her to abuse you or use you.

Plan A .. not plan doormat. If you WANT to be nice .. then be nice .. but not out of obligation or desperation, but because you still love your wife and want to show her that your the better choice.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/30/12 04:55 PM
That makes sense. Thanks. Sorry to sound like I am completely clueless. This is the only time in my life that I have not known what to do in a situation.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/30/12 06:05 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
The reason I ask that question is because sometimes lately I have felt like she is using me or taking advantage of me because I have been doing a lot of stuff for her that I felt like was being nice or helping her.

When I say to woo her, I don't mean allowing her to use you or take advantage of you. That is NOT attractive at all. The OM is not allowing her to use him, likely. Just look for opportunities to take her out and be as pleasant as possible. And don't be aloof!
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 04/30/12 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
The reason I ask that question is because sometimes lately I have felt like she is using me or taking advantage of me because I have been doing a lot of stuff for her that I felt like was being nice or helping her.

When I say to woo her, I don't mean allowing her to use you or take advantage of you. That is NOT attractive at all. The OM is not allowing her to use him, likely. Just look for opportunities to take her out and be as pleasant as possible. And don't be aloof!

Quoted for truth!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/01/12 01:01 PM
Is it normal for the WS to take on a totally opposite personality? I don't even know who she is right now. She's doing and saying things that I know her well enough to know she would never do and/or say.

I've told her that I don't know who she is right now and she says this is the person she has gotten away from and that this is who she really is. I know that's a lie because she has never exhibited these traits and after being with someone day in and day out for 7 years, some of those traits would have had to come out.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/01/12 02:24 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Is it normal for the WS to take on a totally opposite personality? I don't even know who she is right now. She's doing and saying things that I know her well enough to know she would never do and/or say.

I've told her that I don't know who she is right now and she says this is the person she has gotten away from and that this is who she really is. I know that's a lie because she has never exhibited these traits and after being with someone day in and day out for 7 years, some of those traits would have had to come out.
YES. They are aliens and aren't recognised by those whom know them.

What Plan are you in? If you're in Plan A
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/01/12 02:35 PM
Read this it's very educational to see that all waywards speak from the same crazy script.
Craziest Things to come out of a Wayward's Piehole
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/01/12 02:36 PM
Brain,

I'm in Plan A, but it is so very difficult to stay motivated. She is doing things that I never thought she would do. For instance, she withdrew several thousand dollars from an account we use to pay for our kids' school and told me that she was afraid I was gonna use it to pay for a lawyer. Well come to find out I think she has been planning to use it to pay for her college tuition. She hasn't used it yet and I hope she doesn't but the thought is there for her. She has been contemplating it, I know.

She just seems to have "checked out" on everything except making herself happy. This makes it very difficult to stay motivated to continue on.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/01/12 02:37 PM
I've read that several times and it absolutely amazes me every time I do.

It's just so weird and disheartening to see and hear the one you love and thought you would spend forever with act like this and say the things she is saying.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/01/12 02:42 PM
She has not come out and asked me to help her with her tuition and I have decided that I'm not going to do it. I feel like she has been using me lately and I have had enough of it.

I will never forgive myself for not helping her with this because this has been her dream. I have stood beside her and supported her any way I could while she worked for this. If she cannot pay for this next semester it will set her back an entire year. She has worked so hard on this and I hate to be the one that causes her any kind of set back.

I know....I sound whipped. Call it what you want, but the woman I love is still in there somewhere and it kills me to see her like this. I just can't continue enabling her behavior like this. She has done nothing but take from me without giving me anything. I have to draw the line somewhere for myself.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/01/12 02:54 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
When I say to woo her, I don't mean allowing her to use you or take advantage of you. That is NOT attractive at all. The OM is not allowing her to use him, likely. Just look for opportunities to take her out and be as pleasant as possible. And don't be aloof!

Did you read this that Melodylane posted to you?

Plan A is not Plan Doormat. So what are you going to do to stop enabling her?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/01/12 03:09 PM
I did read it and am trying to implement it everywhere I can.

I know everyone understands that this is hard to do with the one you are completely in love with so I won't try to explain that it's difficult.

I'm gonna stop allowing her to use me to get the things she wants. I've allowed her to basically pull the puppet strings and make me jump when she wants something. I give in when I feel like I should do something for her and I am trying to stop that. I have also been tip-toeing around her to try to keep from upsetting her, thinking that if things stay positive all the time she will begin to come out of the fog.

I have basically been grovelling at her every beck and call. I'm not doing that any more. As bad as it hurts to not help her out, until she begins to give back to me I have to stop because apparently she is gonna keep pushing and pushing.

It has been very hard for me to get to this point because I am totally devoted to her (or have been in the past) and I been a "slow learner" in all this as MelodyLane can attest to. I think I have just been pushed and pushed to this point and have FINALLY had enough. I'll be asking for more guidance on how to handle things but I'm at a turning point.

I told Melody yesterday that I sound VERY ignorant in all this. I have never had any issues making decisions or finding solutions to problems but this has completely thrown me for several loops. Up is down and down is up when it comes to this. I've had to learn a whole new way of dealing with relationships.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/01/12 04:47 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
She has not come out and asked me to help her with her tuition and I have decided that I'm not going to do it. I feel like she has been using me lately and I have had enough of it.

I will never forgive myself for not helping her with this because this has been her dream. I have stood beside her and supported her any way I could while she worked for this. If she cannot pay for this next semester it will set her back an entire year. She has worked so hard on this and I hate to be the one that causes her any kind of set back.

I know....I sound whipped. Call it what you want, but the woman I love is still in there somewhere and it kills me to see her like this. I just can't continue enabling her behavior like this. She has done nothing but take from me without giving me anything. I have to draw the line somewhere for myself.

Why will you never forgive yourself, when you 'stood beside her and supported her any way I could' and while SHE was having an affair? You do not have anything to forgive! YOU are not responsible for causing her a setback. Her own choices, as in, her choice to be unfaithful and turn her life upside down AND her choice to continue down that path rather than work toward recovery, are responsible for causing her a setback. You can look in the mirror with pride on the way YOU have supported your wife!
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/01/12 04:51 PM
I must admit I read your thread yesterday and I know the Harleys suggested Plan A until Plan D but I am unclear why you would not be considering Plan B. Seems to me that your LB for her IS depleting and needs to be protected. And it also seems to me that she has cake from you everywhere she turns. Why wait until D is final for her to find out what it is like to not have cake! If she is exposed to life without you at her beck and call, as you say, BEFORE D then maybe it would make her see this in a new light.

But I am just a rookie here, so I am learning as you are. The Harley's and vets obviously know much more than I do.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/01/12 05:20 PM
unwritten,

I have contemplated Plan B quite a bit myself lately. The vets are guiding me toward Plan A right now. I have some of the same thoughts as you about letting her see what it would be like for her to be completely without me for a while.

Thing is that she has it pretty good right now even without me (I think). She's staying with her sister and brother in law so she doesn't really have housework to keep up, she doesn't have to cook her meals all the time, she has help with our two kids when she has them, she gets to go out on the boat every chance she doesn't have the kids, she gets to go out and do anything she wants when she doesn't have the kids, she doesn't have anyone to answer to, etc.

But, you and the vets are right. She has had all the "cake" from me on top of all that. I'm stopping all the "cake" from me though, but honestly...why wouldn't she like it the way it is? Yes, I do have to admit that it seems as though some of the financial strain is getting to her but I don't want her to come back just because of that.

I will also have to say that I get more reaction from her when I am not at her disposal. If I don't answer the phone when she calls, later when we do talk she always slides in the "did you see that I called earlier" comment. So she seems to still be engaged in the relationship but doesn't seem to be interested in changing anything.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/01/12 05:43 PM
The reason he shouldn't go into Plan B is because he has a much better chance of competing and winning if he doesn't. The odds of the OM winning are slim to none, whereas, lookingfor has a great chance of he just hangs in there.

The reason a woman goes into Plan B is because Plan A is harmful to her emotions and men do not react well to having a woman compete for him. It is the opposite with BHs. Competing for a WW is effective and it doesn't wear down the man too much.

And lookingfor, you are right to withhold money for tuition. She shouldn't receive financial benefits while she is living there. If she comes home because of financial pressure that is great as long as she commits to the marriage and agrees to your conditions.

You are the right track with your strategy. Don't be a doormat, but at the same time look for opportunities to woo her. Take her out on a date, but don't agree to run errands for her.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/01/12 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
The reason he shouldn't go into Plan B is because he has a much better chance of competing and winning if he doesn't. The odds of the OM winning are slim to none, whereas, lookingfor has a great chance of he just hangs in there.

The reason a woman goes into Plan B is because Plan A is harmful to her emotions and men do not react well to having a woman compete for him. It is the opposite with BHs. Competing for a WW is effective and it doesn't wear down the man too much.

And lookingfor, you are right to withhold money for tuition. She shouldn't receive financial benefits while she is living there. If she comes home because of financial pressure that is great as long as she commits to the marriage and agrees to your conditions.

You are the right track with your strategy. Don't be a doormat, but at the same time look for opportunities to woo her. Take her out on a date, but don't agree to run errands for her.

Quoting for TRUTH again! Plan A is NOT plan doormat ... just refer to my last post to you prior to this one smile
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/01/12 06:57 PM
I'm gonna stick with the plan even though I don't completely understand how parts of it won't make her angry at me. For instance, if she asks me to do something for her (run an errand or something to that affect) and I say I can't, won't that just make her angry at me? Won't her getting angry with me be kind of like a Love Buster?

Don't think I'm questioning the plan because I'm gonna stick to it whether I understand the "whys" or not. I was just trying to understand the principle behind some of the components.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/01/12 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I'm gonna stick with the plan even though I don't completely understand how parts of it won't make her angry at me. For instance, if she asks me to do something for her (run an errand or something to that affect) and I say I can't, won't that just make her angry at me? Won't her getting angry with me be kind of like a Love Buster?

The goal here is not to avoid making her mad at all cost, but to attract her back. It is not a lovebuster at all to decline to be her boy. Go through the lovebuster list and familiarize yourself with it. You don't make yourself look attractive by being an errand boy. You make yourself attractive by being pleasant but still maintaining boundaries that instill RESPECT. She needs to RESPECT you, not have an errand boy around.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/01/12 08:41 PM
Here is a list of lovebusters:

Selfish Demands
Disrespectful Judgments
Angry Outbursts
Annoying Habits
Independent Behavior
Dishonesty

See? None of those include declining to run errands. In fact, Dr Harley makes it very clear that you should NOT sacrifice. Making sacrifices is bad for marriages because it creates resentment and disrespect.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 01:34 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Here is a list of lovebusters:
Selfish Demands
Disrespectful Judgments
Angry Outbursts
Annoying Habits
Independent Behavior
Dishonesty
See? None of those include declining to run errands. In fact, Dr Harley makes it very clear that you should NOT sacrifice. Making sacrifices is bad for marriages because it creates resentment and disrespect.
Lovebusters
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 02:41 AM
I guess all my efforts were for nothing. She called tonight to tell me she filed the D papers.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 02:52 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I guess all my efforts were for nothing. She called tonight to tell me she filed the D papers.

Stick with the plan! Do you live in a state that is no fault? Did I ask you that?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 03:03 AM
Stick with the plan? I'm really not trying to be rude or anything so please dont take me wrong but what can be done now? I asked her why and she said she is just not happy here anymore. Stupid reason I know.

I do live in a no fault state. I am prepared to call my lawyer tomorrow morning as well as change the door locks.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 03:09 AM
I'm gonna try to get some sleep. If you have advice or dont want me to contact my lawyer tomorrow, post something and I'll check in the morning. Thanks for helping.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 04:08 AM
Filing for divorce is not the end by a long shot. It is just a part of the process. Don't let it shake you up. Just be prepared to countersue and get yourself some good legal protection.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 04:10 AM
lf, I know you are upset about this, but we have had many marriages that were saved even after divorce was filed. It doesn't mean your marriage is over.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 10:48 AM
I know most of you are not out of bed much less online yet, but I'm not sure where to go from here. Do I take my lawyers advice and change the door locks and withdraw any money in joint accounts or just keep on the way I have been?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 10:50 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Filing for divorce is not the end by a long shot. It is just a part of the process. Don't let it shake you up. Just be prepared to countersue and get yourself some good legal protection.
What's wrong with this advice you were given?
Posted By: Caracal Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 10:59 AM
IMO (and I am not a vet) protect yourself financially. Definitely protect joint finances, do not allow WW to finance her affair with joint marital property.

As for changing the locks... aren't you in Plan A? The vets seem to be recommending Plan A.

Let your lawyer show WW the stick of Plan A, by all means. It ain't gonna be rosy if that is what WW thinks. You will fight to protect yourself financially.

As for carrot... show yourself to be the James Bond of Plan A.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 11:01 AM
Brain,

Absolutely nothing is wrong with the advice I get on here. I'm just afraid that if I don't start protecting myself she will continue to take advantage of me leaving everything open.

So am I assuming when I say that you all think I should not call the lawyer this morning or change any locks or anything like that?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 11:03 AM
Caracal,

How would the lawyers show WW the Stick?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 11:06 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I know most of you are not out of bed much less online yet, but I'm not sure where to go from here. Do I take my lawyers advice and change the door locks and withdraw any money in joint accounts or just keep on the way I have been?
Yes you need to protect yourself legally.

She's out of the house, correct? Still seeing OM?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 11:08 AM
She's out of the house but I can only assume that she's still seeing the POSOM. I have already spoken to the lawyer a few weeks ago to find out my options. I just am not sure what y'all mean by protect myself legally. I know how ignorant I sound.
Posted By: alis Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 11:17 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
She's out of the house but I can only assume that she's still seeing the POSOM. I have already spoken to the lawyer a few weeks ago to find out my options. I just am not sure what y'all mean by protect myself legally. I know how ignorant I sound.

Protect yourself legally means some of the following...
- Filing for exclusive use of the marital home (so she doesn't move OM in and tell you to go)
- Protect your finances (she could, today, just go and drain your bank account and there's nothing you can do about it)
Etc.....

If you have not filed and obtained exclusive use of the marital home then you can change the locks but she can also change them back, I am not sure if your lawyer was clear on that? I'm not a lawyer but I worked in law enforcement and this is a pretty clear cut issue on locks. Just want to make sure you cover your bases, you might want to re-clarify.

Sorry, I have missed it, do you guys have kids together?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 11:31 AM
We do have kids. A 2-1/2 year old and a 5 month old.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 11:34 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
We do have kids. A 2-1/2 year old and a 5 month old.

Are the kids with you in your home?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 11:36 AM
We alternate 2 days at a time.
Posted By: alis Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 11:53 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
We alternate 2 days at a time.

Is this an agreement between you (verbal) or done through court?

You should get this done through court ASAP. Since you are married, you both have equal rights - which means if she decided to run off with the kids tomorrow, you would not be able to call the police for assistance, you would need to go through court.

I really urge you to jump the gun on this one and get into family court ASAP for custody/visitation/support plan -> I have unfortunately seen this happen before and it can take days, weeks, months, YEARS to find the spouse/kids. I'm not saying it's going to happen but if it does, I would hate to see you go through that heart break (mine are the same age almost).
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 11:56 AM
The agreement is verbal. Wouldn't I have to counter-file to get into custody?
Posted By: alis Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 12:09 PM
It can be state dependent but in general, you need to file for legal separation or divorce (open your family court case), and then file papers to establish custody/visitation. It will be an order under the 'umbrella' of your original family court case (the foundation of which is the separation/divorce filing). You both have equal rights at this time and sharing 50% until now (I assume 2 on/2 off is your 50%) is in your favor.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 03:41 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I know most of you are not out of bed much less online yet, but I'm not sure where to go from here. Do I take my lawyers advice and change the door locks and withdraw any money in joint accounts or just keep on the way I have been?

Yes! Get legal protection. Keep up with your Plan A but protect yourself legally.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 05:52 PM
So should I counter file with the stipulations I told her would happen?

Or just sit on her paperwork for a while?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 07:15 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
So should I counter file with the stipulations I told her would happen?

Or just sit on her paperwork for a while?

Be sure and counter file so you are legally protected.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 07:21 PM
Ok. That's what I needed to know. I will counter with the terms that I told her and the OM would be if this came to divorce right?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 07:23 PM
I'm reading (again) portions of Surviving An Affair in regards to Plan A. How do I go about getting more time to implement? I guess nothing can be finalized until I agree to sign something though, so I guess I just counter file and then sit on things while I implement Plan A?.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 10:00 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I'm reading (again) portions of Surviving An Affair in regards to Plan A. How do I go about getting more time to implement? I guess nothing can be finalized until I agree to sign something though, so I guess I just counter file and then sit on things while I implement Plan A?

Do you mean more time with your WW to implement Plan A? You mean like asking her out on dates?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 10:27 PM
Basically, yes. If I don't stall the divorce then I won't have a chance to implement Plan A. Does that make more sense?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 10:30 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I'm reading (again) portions of Surviving An Affair in regards to Plan A. How do I go about getting more time to implement? I guess nothing can be finalized until I agree to sign something though, so I guess I just counter file and then sit on things while I implement Plan A?.

You got it! Just countersue and then drag it out. Chances are that the affair won't last long and you can drop the divorce. But this way you are protected legally and if she doesn't change, then you will be divorced.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 10:33 PM
She's already worried(I think) that I have a lawyer already. She's gonna be ticked off when she gets the papers showing that I am filing for full custody and that the POSOM will not be around my kids, etc. Just as I told her and him.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 10:34 PM
I don't think she was expecting me to lawyer up and counter file. I feel like she expected me to roll over and accept her terms in the filing.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 10:36 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I don't think she was expecting me to lawyer up and counter file. I feel like she expected me to roll over and accept her terms in the filing.

Yep, I agree!
Posted By: alis Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 11:15 PM
Yes, you counter-file and discuss the following with your lawyer:
No paramour order
Right of first refusal
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/02/12 11:54 PM
I'll Google those terms tonight, but why those two specifically? I guess when I Google them I will know huh?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/03/12 01:26 AM
I'll definitely ask about both. Since I will be asking for full custody I'm not sure the ROFR will apply will it?
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/03/12 01:53 AM
Somehow I've missed this entire thread. Well, I'm caught up now and have a few pointers for you.

Don't assume anything about family law. Assume as a man that the deck is stacked against you. This doesn't mean you can't win custody, but it does mean that you have to play things smart.

99% of the family law situation is a mind game. You will counter file and request sole physical and legal custody. File on the grounds of abandonment since she left and request an order that leaves the kids in the marital home under your care.

Understand that you won't get any of what you ask for. It is done and filed for effect to put the fear of losing it all on the WW. Expect her to freak out when she sees official papers filed to the court where you are asking for it all and alleging that she abandoned the family.

File on grounds of adultery. If adultery isn't an option, then file on grounds of mental cruelty.

Go out and get a book called Father's Rights and another one called Custody for Fathers. Thousands of dollars of legal advice is in those books.

Understand that the court system sees cases like yours all day long every day. Nothing about your case is unique or special. She cheated, you guys didn't work out, etc, etc. The court doesn't care. Unless you have solid evidence that she's a crack whore that has sex in front of the children with OM, then you won't get sole custody and stand the chance of getting only partial custody if you don't play things right.

Family court isn't about convincing the court that she is a terrible parent so much as it is about showing the court that you're a good dad.

There is a conflict between Plan B and court proceedings. It is difficult to execute and I believe that SH advises for the BS to do Plan A during legal battles. I could be wrong on that.

I think it is very tough to save a marriage when a WW leaves to pursue her relationship with OM. I've rarely seen it happen here with the outcome generally being D when the affair is pretty entrenched.

The best approach for you is to take the attitude that the marriage is dead because it is. If you recover your marriage, it will be a new one that doesn't resemble your current one at all.

Look for a thread by mortarman. He fought a custody battle and generally won the legal fight, but also regained his marriage when the WW saw that she really was going to lose it all.

Best of luck. Assume nothing about family law. You can get custody as a dad. Don't let her move away with the kids.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/03/12 12:19 PM
I don't think I have to tell everyone how tough it is to stay motivated. This morning I was taking my girls to school and the WW drives by and doesn't even acknowledge that I was there. I know she saw me because she was right behind me and then passed me. I also know that this is "normal" behavior for her right...I guess. It's just tough that my wife doesn't even want to acknowledge me. Hard to believe that she hates me that bad.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/03/12 12:29 PM
On another note, I have been thinking about some of the things she's been saying and thought I'd post to see what everyone thought about something.

So I know she's had and is possibly still having an affair with the OM. Well, I've been wondering if by chance the affair with him is actually over and she is "having an affair" with the idea of being single again, will the MB plans still work in that kind of situation?

I spoke to her sister yesterday and she said that she didn't believe that WW was still seeing the OM. She said that when WW didn't have the kids she would come home, eat, do some classwork and then go to bed. When she had the kids she was busy with them.

Now, I have been proven wrong many times on this forum so I don't take much stock in what the sister believes because I didn't believe the WW would ever have an affair in the first place. But talking to her made me start wondering that IF the affair with the OM is over and IF she could just be "having and affair" so to speak with the idea of being single/carefree/etc.

I know I tend to over analyze things but was just wondering what everyone thought.

I know I post A LOT on here and I appreciate everyone's patience and replies. This forum has been the best resource for support, information and guidance that I could have.

I don't know if I have said this to everyone but thank you for everything. I hope my situation works out in the end. If it does it will be because of all of you who have been there to provide support and guidance. Thanks to everyone.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/03/12 12:37 PM
It takes much more than the draw of the single life to get a woman to abandon her marriage and family. It takes a powerful addiction that comes from an affair. I don't believe for a minute the affair is over.

Your wife doesn't want anyone to know about the affair so it either has gone further underground [a very easy feat] and/or has likely backed off for now so you don't have ammo in the divorce.

I assure you the affair is ongoing.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/03/12 12:38 PM
And you are very welcome for the help, my friend! I hope and pray this works out. There is always hope.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/03/12 12:43 PM
So other than Plan A, how in the world do I combat the affair in this situation? Hopefully counter filing the way I'm going to will have some effect but I don't know what else I can do to fight the affair.

And, how do I make myself sit back and "wait" while my wife carries on an affair basically right in front of my eyes until she gets over it? This is very tough for me.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/03/12 12:45 PM
Would another call/letter/email to the OM do any good? How about if I ask my lawyers to send him something? I don't mean to sound desperate in regards to the affair but I don't know how much I can learn to deal with if she continues to have the affair/sleep with another man.

That may sound very immature but that bothers me tremendously.

She has probably told him that we are not working things out and he is believing her. Although from what he told me before, he doesn't want a relationship with her.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/03/12 12:58 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I don't think she was expecting me to lawyer up and counter file. I feel like she expected me to roll over and accept her terms in the filing.

Here is what I think is happening, lf. Wayward wives envision a fantasy divorce where the husband steps aside and the OM replaces him with ease. By countersuing and going tough, you burst that bubble. That gives her second thoughts about pursuing her affair and causes conflict in the affair. Your wife is very focused on hiding her affair and that won't be an easy way to live.

That is the stick of Plan A.

While that is going on, you look for every opportunity to present yourself as an attractive place to land. I know that is hard with her living apart, but you can focus on being as attractive and upbeat as possible. Be sure and be pleasant and look and smell great when she sees you.

You are in competition with the OM and you have the competitive advantage by far. You just have to be patient and strategic.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/03/12 01:01 PM
I would have the lawyer contact him and have him hauled into court to give testimony of his affair with your wife.

And the OM is a liar so his telling you he didn't want a relationship with her is not credible. Just ask yourself what kind of rat has an affair with a married woman?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/03/12 01:29 PM
You're definitely right that she's hiding something. She has changed some of her passwords and the biggest giveaway that she's hiding something is the fact that she talks to no one about what's going on with her...not even her sister whom she has always talked to about things. I have had a feeling that she's been hiding something all along, but have been trying to figure out how she would have time. I guess it's easy to find time when no one is there to watch you or question you.

Hopefully, when she gets the paperwork from my lawyers stating that she and the POSOM will be testifying under oath and that all relevant records will be subpoenaed it will scare her enough to realize that she can't hide it. I wish I could find out for sure and blast it open AGAIN!

The only way I know is to maybe hire a PI, but that costs money.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/03/12 01:33 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
The only way I know is to maybe hire a PI, but that costs money.

Any way you could swing paying for a PI to follow her for a couple of days? A PI can usually get the goods real fast, along with pictures, etc. Do you know where the OM lives?

Could you slip a GPS unit on her car?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/03/12 01:43 PM
I don't think I could pull the GPS off. She already knows I bought one to put on her truck before she traded it. I never got a chance to put it on the truck but she found the paperwork. She was very angry that I had bought one and STILL doesn't believe me when I tell her that it never got put on her truck.

I'll look into the PI and see how much they are. Now that I think about it, what will I do if I do find out they are still in contact?

I do know where he lives and works. Honestly, it would be VERY difficult for her to be meeting him somewhere...but I have been wrong before haven't I. She really doesn't have much "free time" in her schedule. Now as far as being in contact...plenty of time and opportunities. That's the part that will be hard to fight.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/03/12 02:31 PM
As regards, and is support of, HTLD's post:

There comes a time during a massive natural (weather) event when electrical utilities go into "cut and clear" mode. In effect they acknowledge that there is zero chance of keeping/restoring electrical power to impacted areas, and swing into the action of capping damaged distribution lines to prevent injury to the population (shock, fire). They'll accept the immediate loss of their preferred stasis in the view of long-term viabilioty of their system.

You, my friend, are in exactly that situation now. Your marriage is dead. Concentrate on saving your rights/perquisites involving your children. If GPS'ing her vehicle helps you demonstrate her unfitness as a mother, proceed. If, however, it's likely to be used by the scumbag lawyer she eventually hires to illustrate your "obsession" with control, forgo it.

And YES, your WW can be having an affair with the idea of being "free". Ask Stretch123 how that can work. She might not have an active AP right now, but the easily entranced female brain can latch on to the "fantasy" of an AP-in-waiting, and do whatever is necessary to be available to him when he arrives. This includes shedding her now-inadequate husband.

Strap up and start to fight carefully, intelligently, and forcefully. Remember, the courts don't care about your situation, except in how to get it off their calendars.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/03/12 02:43 PM
How did Stretch123 fight that? Did the MB way work?
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/03/12 04:46 PM
Yes, the allure of single life can be powerful. It drew my WXW away but I played a huge role in that by making it easy.

Don't make it easy. Fight for your rights. Make the cost of divorce very high.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/03/12 06:43 PM
Y'all know how I have a bad habit of analyzing stuff so I have come up with another question. We know the MB program and plans work but why would a WS not get angry at the BS for snooping and exposing and manipulating and just curse the BS out then leave for good?
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/03/12 06:54 PM
Because the BS's demeanour in explaining why the exposure was performed is critical in enlightening the WS as to the seriousness with which the BS is addressing the issue.

"Dear, I will do anything to break up the illicit relationship you are engaged in, because recovering my marriage is THAT important to me. Besides which, if you are willing to engage in adulterous affairs with POSOM, why would you not want the world to share in the joy you've discovered? Now, can I make you some chamomile tea?"

Additionally, the exposure closes off any opportunity for WW to pre-empt the imminent uncovering of her actions by telling whoever will listen that her BH is an overly jealous kook who foolishly thinks she's cheating on him. Remember, the modern public being incredibly uncritical, the first story they hear is the one that sticks. Works in affair-fighting the same way it does in politics.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/03/12 07:36 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Y'all know how I have a bad habit of analyzing stuff so I have come up with another question. We know the MB program and plans work but why would a WS not get angry at the BS for snooping and exposing and manipulating and just curse the BS out then leave for good?

Because typically the exposure kills the affair which removes the reason for being angry about the exposure. Anger over exposure is due to the fog; the fog is caused by the affair. Kill the affair to save your marriage. Your marriage can recover from her anger, it can't survive an ongoing affair.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/03/12 08:57 PM
I know your plate is full and someone probably has already given you this advice(if they have I apologize in advance) please read and heed this.

DOCUMENT! DOCUMENT! DOCUMENT!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/03/12 11:20 PM
I have come upon 2 interesting observations this evening that I would like to share.

1. She filed for divorce but she has made no efforts to take much of her stuff from the house since she first left. I think that's interesting but don't know if it's significant.

2. This one is a bit more "philisophical" I guess. I started thinking about how WW is acting right now and it made me think of those stories that you hear about soul mates that love each other so much but one of them finds out that they are terminally ill. They don't want to tell their soul mate husband/wife that they are terminal and are dying because they don't want to hurt him/her. So they distance themselves from their soul mate and lie to them about why they're leaving. They do this to keep from subjecting the other to all the pain they will feel watching them slowly die from their terminal illness. They justify their leaving by "saving" the other person from enduring that.

Well, lately I have wondered if something crazy like that could be a possibility because my WW is acting so distant/secretive/elusive/etc and continues to send mixed signal that make me believe that she still loves me but has something terrible that she doesn't want to admit or tell me. It almost makes me feel sorry for her.

Now I know everyone is thinking "my lord, he has went off the deep end". I haven't. I just know that there must some kind of powerful force that is causing her to be like this. There is no way that a person can "lose" all the love for the person they chose to spend the rest of their life with that easily. There is also no way that my WW is going to make me believe that this is the person she has always been but had "lost" during our marriage.

If we never have the chance to repair our marriage, I hope that one day I can get her to tell me the whole God's honest truth about what's going on with her and/or in her head. If it is still the affair that caused and is continuing to cause this, I have to say that an affair is more addictive and life-destroying than ANY kind of substance that has ever touched this earth.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/03/12 11:49 PM
Oh good grief. faint
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/03/12 11:51 PM
We all KNOW why your wife is acting like this, you silly man!!! The "powerful force" is an AFFAIR!

She is ADDICTED to the OM. Addicted. Let that soak in for a minute.

She is acting the SAME WAY every WW acts!


Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/03/12 11:55 PM
LOL! Now Mel. I didnt say that's what I believed. I was just making an analogy to the way my WW was acting. It's just so unbelieveable that she honestly believes she has completely lost all love for me and that I am the worst thing that has happened to her (by the way she acts anyway).

So dont think I have lost sight of the plan or goal. I'm still with you.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 12:02 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
It's just so unbelieveable that she honestly believes she has completely lost all love for me and that I am the worst thing that has happened to her (by the way she acts anyway).

Yes, they ALL believe that. Go read the other husband's threads, their wives said the same things!

The reason is because her new point of comparison is a FANTASY ADDICTION. Let's say you get addicted to heroin. You love the high and become addicted. You have a new point of comparison and judge your past as bland, boring, a dead life. BUT....eventually the drug addiction turns UGLY on you and reality intrudes. You get busted for having drugs and are forced to sober up. When you sober up, you realize how crazy and irrational you have been! Your addiction looks very different with a SOBER EYE.

Do not worry for one second that she says she doesn't love you anymore. She can love you again once the affair is killed. We have so many recovered marriages here that were actually worse off than yours.

Just stick with us and don't take her words any more seriously than a falling down drunk. Does a falling down drunk know how they feel while they are drunk? No, they don't!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 12:03 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
LOL! Now Mel. I didnt say that's what I believed. I was just making an analogy to the way my WW was acting.



That is not your wife. That is an ALIEN. And the odds are in your favor that she will wake up and come back to the marriage. No guarantees, but there is hope! There is more hope for your marriage than there is the affair.

So, hang in there, my friend! This is far from over.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 12:07 AM
I believe you. I just think this whole thing is the craziest thing I have ever seen much less been involved in.

I guess it's really getting to me that she doesn't even want to recognize that I've been a HUGE part of her life and that we have been through so much together and that we have so much that we have built. It's just absolutely absurd that she doesn't see how much she's throwing away.

It's kind of starting to worry me a lot because it appears that there is not much more that can be done or tried before the end(final divorce) comes. I guess I'm more and more worried now that she has filed. I really didn't think she would do that. I figured she was waiting for me to so she could tell everybody "well, he divorced me. I didn't divorce him".

Know what I mean. I'm still with you and I'm putting everything I have into it.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 12:14 AM
I'm really interested/anxious to see how she reacts when she gets my filing papers.

I'll be talking to my lawyer tomorrow and will be preparing the filing next week.

By the way...I've been reading Stretch123's post (and A LOT of others). I know you're right. It's just such bizarre behavior it's hard to believe it's happening or real.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 12:16 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I believe you. I just think this whole thing is the craziest thing I have ever seen much less been involved in.

I know! It is crazy. It is like watching your spouse become someone who is completely alien to you.

Quote
I guess it's really getting to me that she doesn't even want to recognize that I've been a HUGE part of her life and that we have been through so much together and that we have so much that we have built. It's just absolutely absurd that she doesn't see how much she's throwing away.

None of this means anything to her because she is a falling down drunk. So don't let it get to you. I know it hurts! But once you kill this affair, she will come back to her senses. This is why it is so important to find out what she is doing and drag the affair out into the sunlight and stab it like you would a vampire! Affairs thrive on secrecy, after all!

Quote
It's kind of starting to worry me a lot because it appears that there is not much more that can be done or tried before the end(final divorce) comes. I guess I'm more and more worried now that she has filed.

Let me give you some statistics so you will see that the odds are completely in your favor. 95% of affairs die in under 2 years. Of the 5% that make it to marriage, 75% of those don't last longer than 5 years. They are fraught with abuse, thoughtlessness and deceit. They are horrible relationships.

On the other hand, 65% of marriages do not end over affairs.

So guess who I am placing my money on!! grin

I just baseballed a trifecta on YOU!! laugh
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 12:16 AM
Did you get into your doctor to get some AD's or anxiety meds?

Dr. H recommends them during this trying time.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 12:26 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
2. This one is a bit more "philisophical" I guess. I started thinking about how WW is acting right now and it made me think of those stories that you hear about soul mates that love each other so much but one of them finds out that they are terminally ill. They don't want to tell their soul mate husband/wife that they are terminal and are dying because they don't want to hurt him/her. So they distance themselves from their soul mate and lie to them about why they're leaving. They do this to keep from subjecting the other to all the pain they will feel watching them slowly die from their terminal illness. They justify their leaving by "saving" the other person from enduring that.

Well, lately I have wondered if something crazy like that could be a possibility because my WW is acting so distant/secretive/elusive/etc and continues to send mixed signal that make me believe that she still loves me but has something terrible that she doesn't want to admit or tell me. It almost makes me feel sorry for her.
Actually, I find this totally believable. I know that this happens to people because I saw it in a recent storyline in Desperate Housewives. The old couple there went through this when the wife found out that her cancer had come back and was terminal. She kept the diagnosis secret, then threw her H out of the house and filed for divorce so he wouldn't have to see her suffer.

Desperate Housewives is based on real-life events and I find it as believable as I find your hypothesis here.

sigh

Someone told me that I should use smilies more often, so I am using one here, just so my meaning is clear.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 12:32 AM
I'm so glad Sugarcane is smiling more. Maybe all that rain they are getting "over there" will feel her sunshine!! laugh

On the whole soul mate (crap) you have to read this it will make you smile and not SC's kind smirk or is it this sigh
Soul Mate schmoopies
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 12:34 AM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Desperate Housewives is based on real-life events and I find it as believable as I find your hypothesis here.

skeptical skeptical How did the foreigners find out about Desperate Housewives?? That is an American SECRET! skeptical
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 01:15 AM
Dang. Y'all are a tough crowd.

Brain,
I haven't gotten any meds yet. I was kind of afraid to with potential divorce proceeding looming. Lawyers may be able to use that if it comes to that.

I've been looking into using a PI to see if she's still seeing the OM. My question is what will I do if I find out she is still seeing/communicating with him? I guess what I mean is what good will it do to bring it to light that she's started up again if no one cares. No one includes her family, friends, etc. When I exposed the first time, no one really seemed to be interested in supporting the act of helping kill it then so why should I think they would now?

I'm still gonna see what I can find out but just wondering what can be done with the info if I find it?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 01:22 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I've been looking into using a PI to see if she's still seeing the OM. My question is what will I do if I find out she is still seeing/communicating with him? I guess what I mean is what good will it do to bring it to light that she's started up again if no one cares. No one includes her family, friends, etc. When I exposed the first time, no one really seemed to be interested in supporting the act of helping kill it then so why should I think they would now?

I'm still gonna see what I can find out but just wondering what can be done with the info if I find it?
I would hire the PI. It will help if you go to divorce to show she is still up to her no good ways.

On the meds. I would think it could be used for you because it shows the mental anguish you're going through. Maybe you should see a counselor on that? To help you get throught this trauma.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 01:25 AM
You can show what Dr. Harley says about affairs here.
Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
One of the most destructive and painful acts that one human can do to another is to have an affair with his or her spouse. Most women would rather be gang raped than to have another woman have sex with their husbands. Most men would rather have their arms cut off than have their wives in someone else's arms. That's why I am so much opposed to affairs, and why I try so hard to help couples prevent them.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 01:43 AM
I have been looking into the PI thing quite a bit today. I think I'm terrified of what kinds of evidence they will find.

Will any of you vets be online this weekend? I am trying to figure out what all to tell the lawyers to put into the paperwork as well as what to ask the lawyers to do in regards to contacting the OM like Mel suggested.

Y'all may lie to me and say that you won't be online because you probably need a break from crazy's like me. I wouldn't blame you a bit. You guys and gals should get paid for helping (and reprimanding) BS's like me.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 02:12 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I've been looking into using a PI to see if she's still seeing the OM. My question is what will I do if I find out she is still seeing/communicating with him? I guess what I mean is what good will it do to bring it to light that she's started up again if no one cares. No one includes her family, friends, etc. When I exposed the first time, no one really seemed to be interested in supporting the act of helping kill it then so why should I think they would now?

Your wife cares very much if you find out, which is why she is hiding it. The power of exposure does not come from others actively working to kill it, but in all of them knowing it. Affairs thrive on secrecy so bringing it out in the open hastens its death. You can also use this intel in a divorce action.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 02:14 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Will any of you vets be online this weekend? I am trying to figure out what all to tell the lawyers to put into the paperwork as well as what to ask the lawyers to do in regards to contacting the OM like Mel suggested.

I will be on and off all weekend! Tell the lawyers to countersue on grounds of adultery and have the RAT subpeonaed to give sworn testimony about his affair.

I would also insist that it be put in your agreement that your kids not be exposed to her adultery partner. Your lawyer will say "we can't do that!!" Well, yes he can. We do it all the time.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 02:28 AM
I mentioned the fact that I want a court order or what ever it's called in lawyer speak put into the papers to disallow the WW to take the kids anywhere around him when I met with them for the consult. They actually said it wouldn't be a problem. I have a VERY good lawyer on my side. Hopefully I won't have to use most of their skills.

Mel, you say get the lawyers to subpeonae the POSOM to give sworn testimony. Wouldn't that only happen IF this actually goes to divorce?

I would really like for the lawyers to contact him in some way to let him know that I haven't forgotten about him and also to let him know that he is contributing to his own court undo-ing. I don't actually know if they will do that or not but I think something OFFICIAL would scare the crap outta this guy! I really do.

I also should probably find out if they are actually in contact or not before I ask the lawyers to contact him, huh?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 02:43 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Mel, you say get the lawyers to subpeonae the POSOM to give sworn testimony. Wouldn't that only happen IF this actually goes to divorce?

Yes, and you are countersuing for divorce on grounds of adultery so the OM would have to give sworn testimony.

Quote
I would really like for the lawyers to contact him in some way to let him know that I haven't forgotten about him and also to let him know that he is contributing to his own court undo-ing. I don't actually know if they will do that or not but I think something OFFICIAL would scare the crap outta this guy! I really do.

Making him give testimony under oath in a deposition and requiring him to turn over his emails and cell phone records will do the trick!

Quote
I also should probably find out if they are actually in contact or not before I ask the lawyers to contact him, huh?

They had an affair so you already know that. They don't have to actually be in contact at the very second you speak to your lawyer for the lawyers to contact him. I would hire a PI and find out what she is doing.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 02:48 AM
Thanks for all the info today. I'm gonna try to get some sleep. I'll check into the PI more tomorrow.

Everyone have a good night. I feel like y'all have become family.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 02:53 AM
night, my friend! smile
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 03:28 PM
Just picked up divorce papers from my lawyer that her lawyer sent over. Very upsetting.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 03:41 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Just picked up divorce papers from my lawyer that her lawyer sent over. Very upsetting.

Tell us more!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 03:47 PM
First of all it's upsetting to just see our names versus each other.

I'm still reading but basically she wants half of everything plus like $1500 per month child support.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 03:48 PM
But she's trying to be fair and considerate??!!?!?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 03:58 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
But she's trying to be fair and considerate??!!?!?
No such thing in divorce. And $1500 in CS?? How many kids? Wow are you Bill Gates?

You're countering, correct?

Just because she filed doesn't mean you're divorced.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 04:05 PM
I am countering. Meeting with lawyers on the 9th to work up the papers.

I understand that just because she filed we're not divorced but it hurts so bad to see it written down that she wants a divorce.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I am countering. Meeting with lawyers on the 9th to work up the papers.

I understand that just because she filed we're not divorced but it hurts so bad to see it written down that she wants a divorce.
I know my friend. Stay in the good fight.

Marriage Builders may not save all marriages but it will save all people who follow it.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 05:05 PM
She is absolutely crazy. So I'm at the dealership talking to the salesman about a vehicle and she calls. I silence the ringer. 2 minutes she calls back. I silence the ringer again because I'm in the middle of a conversation. 2 minutes and she texts and says that she is trying to get in touch with me. 4 minutes later I had walked outside and she calls again. No voicemails the first 2 times by the way.

I answer the third time because I'm irritated. She says "I've been trying to get in touch with you". She also says "well you're not at work". I say "No I'm not but I'm with someone. Why didnt you leave a voicemail"? No answer to my question. So come to find out she called to ask me where one of our daughter's bags was at.

WTH is the deal? She is so concerned about where I am and what I'm doing but she doesnt want anything to do with me. When we hang up she says "well I guess I'll let you get back to whoever you are with".

I am trying with every fiber of my being to be pleasant and cordial to her but I think she intentionally tries to tick me off.

Come to fin
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 05:06 PM
Oh and she would have to had either called my work or went by there to know I wasnt there.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I am trying with every fiber of my being to be pleasant and cordial to her but I think she intentionally tries to tick me off.

Is she used to having you at her beck and call?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 05:19 PM
That would be an understatement. I have always been right there whenever she needed anything.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
That would be an understatement. I have always been right there whenever she needed anything.

That would explain part of her contempt for you. Another thing I would expect her to do is to antagonize you into losing your temper so she can use that as ammunition against you.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 05:27 PM
I have to say that these stupid juvenile games shes playing are getting very old.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 05:28 PM
Contempt? So shes mad at me for not jumping when she calls?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Contempt? So shes mad at me for not jumping when she calls?

Women have contempt for men they can run over. So you need to focus on earning her respect by not being at her beck and call. The worst thing you can do with a tyrannical dictator is accede to their demands. So just focus on being FIRM and resolved without being a doormat. Can you do that?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 05:46 PM
Mel, I think I am very quickly getting to the point where I dont care as much as I did in regards to whether I make her mad. I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that this doormat has been walked on the last time.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 05:51 PM
I'm pretty sure she got that point today. I was not disrespectful nor was I angry but I was firm in letting her know that I was with someone and she can leave messages.

She called twice the left 2 text messages and then called again. All within 6 or so minutes. And it was about some stupid bag!!!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 06:20 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Mel, I think I am very quickly getting to the point where I dont care as much as I did in regards to whether I make her mad. I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that this doormat has been walked on the last time.

You are catching on, my friend! hurray And your reaction is perfect, polite but firm. Don't let her drag you into a fight. If she can get you into a fight, she can take the focus off her affair. Many WS' try to pick fights for that reason.

You are doing just fine....
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 06:22 PM
Does anyone know if any of the reverse phone number services are any good?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 06:28 PM
I just hope I'm not catching on too late.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 06:30 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Does anyone know if any of the reverse phone number services are any good?

They are very hit and miss. I think most don't charge until they give you a name, though. Did you check out whitepages.com? Sometimes that is a really good free source.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 06:34 PM
I tried a couple on whitepages, but I need names. I just didn't know the best way to go about getting names for the numbers.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 06:45 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I tried a couple on whitepages, but I need names. I just didn't know the best way to go about getting names for the numbers.

Did you put the #s in the "reverse lookup" section?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 06:49 PM
I went back and did a couple more and it shows that there is more info available for a small fee. I might try a couple.

This is probably a waste of time anyway. If she's in contact with the OM she won't be doing it with this phone cause she knows I can see all the phone numbers and text numbers. Although, there are quite a few numbers I don't recognize.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 06:52 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that this doormat has been walked on the last time.

THATS the spirit! YOU are the man .. YOU got things to do. Her games are just that .. games. Do your best to remain calm ... and not feed into her BS. Stay the course. So far so good. Maintain your self respect. Be FIRM but Calm.

I believe you will turn this around! I am rooting for ya anyhow!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 06:56 PM
Thanks Guy. I hope I can turn it around, but sometimes it feels pretty hopeless.

I'm gonna stay the course and hope for the best!

She seems to still want to stay "connected" or "plugged into" me and what I'm doing but only when it suits her. Maybe that's positive.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 07:15 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Thanks Guy. I hope I can turn it around, but sometimes it feels pretty hopeless.

I'm gonna stay the course and hope for the best!

She seems to still want to stay "connected" or "plugged into" me and what I'm doing but only when it suits her. Maybe that's positive.

Yup it is positive (at least i think so)... lets you know she probably has 2nd thoughts often, but her pride keeps getting in the way.

Keep reaffirming at the right times that YOU are the right choice. Use some dating tactics on her maybe. Kino ... cocky/funny ... etc. SHow your back bone and stand up for yourself .. dont allow ANY disrespect from her .. but show your fun side too when it suits the moment. (provided you get a chance). Keep her interested while you stay the course here and make it difficult for OM.

MNG
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 07:29 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I went back and did a couple more and it shows that there is more info available for a small fee. I might try a couple.

This is probably a waste of time anyway. If she's in contact with the OM she won't be doing it with this phone cause she knows I can see all the phone numbers and text numbers. Although, there are quite a few numbers I don't recognize.

It is so easy to get around that. Can you sneak a GPS and a VAR in her car? Do you have an opportunity to do that?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 07:34 PM
I wish I could. She knows I bought a gps and has been VERY protective of her new car.

I'm kind of afraid of the VAR because my lawyer told me that was a felony to record her unless I was on the other end of the line. But no matter, I don't think I could get access to her car safely enough to put it in there nor retrieve it. I wish I could though.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 07:38 PM
I would LOVE to know where she's been going.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 07:39 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I would LOVE to know where she's been going.

Can you hire a PI?
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 07:40 PM
You could mount the GPS in her bumper!? Unless she has her car in a garage at night where you cant get at it.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 07:47 PM
Brain,
I'm looking into the PI costs to see if I can do that.

NiceGuy,
Her sister's house is right next to her uncle and Grandma. They all live in a cluster. Her sister also has a dog that would bark. Believe me, I'm definitely not trying to find excuses NOT to do the gps. If I could do the gps it would probably answer a lot of questions.
Posted By: Logans_Run Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 08:24 PM
Not to upset any pet lovers.......what about some benadryl in a little hamburger meat thrown over the fence? You can find dosages on the net.......wait an hour....then gps time?
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 08:27 PM
Hey .. great idea! (im a pet lover but pets are irrelevant when it comes to marriages in trouble)
Posted By: Logans_Run Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 08:37 PM
http://www.benadrylfordogs.org/how_much_benadryl_can_you_give_your_dog.html
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 08:41 PM
First time I've laughed out loud all day!! Thanks for that.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 08:41 PM
you people are crazy!! rotflmao
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 08:43 PM
How often can you do that? I'd have to go get the gps every few days to download the info and charge it. I dont want to get the dog hooked on Benadryl. He's a pretty cool dog.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 08:43 PM
Crazy or determined? Hmmmm?
Posted By: Logans_Run Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 08:47 PM
The link says up to three times a day. Every couple days should be fine.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 08:50 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
How often can you do that? I'd have to go get the gps every few days to download the info and charge it. I dont want to get the dog hooked on Benadryl. He's a pretty cool dog.


noooooo, get one that transmits her location and you don't have to retrieve.
Posted By: Viper Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
How often can you do that? I'd have to go get the gps every few days to download the info and charge it. I dont want to get the dog hooked on Benadryl. He's a pretty cool dog.


noooooo, get one that transmits her location and you don't have to retrieve.
Like this one

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3343813
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/04/12 09:04 PM
Go read this thread. There are some good ones. http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2472070&page=1
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/05/12 01:20 PM
I probably screwed up this morning. I've been trying to implement Plan A but she came over this morning and just kept pushing and pushing until I broke. I broke a cup in the sink because she keeps twisting everything I say into something that sounds so terrible.

I know I screwed up with my angry outburst but I have built up so much anger I broke. I'm sorry y'all.

I'm really starting to think I'm wasting my time with her because she is so dead-set against this marriage. I'm gonna continue trying to Plan A but I really don't know if it will make any difference.

Saying all that, let me tell you about what happened last night. She had asked me earlier this week if we could talk about paying for the kids' school. I told her this weekend would be a good time. Keep in mind that she had the kids last night (Friday night). Well, she asked me if I was gonna be home later Friday night (digging, I'm sure). I told her I didn't know yet. I told her that Sunday morning would be a good time since she would be coming over to drop off the kids anyway.

Well, come close to 5:00pm or so Friday I started getting texts from her related to menial stuff with the kids. Stuff that wasn't necessarily important enough to text 6 or 7 times about. I answered her each time. Well, around 9:40pm she texted me to ask me to let her know when I got home because she needed to come over and get something. Something that she really didn't need to come get at 9:40pm at night. I didn't text her back because I knew she was just checking up on me.

This morning at one point in our discussion I asked her if she would let me know when she was going to come by instead of just showing up at 7:45am. She said "well, if you wouldn't stay out all night you wouldn't need to still be in the bed this late". She also said "are you afraid that I might come over and find someone here" and I told her that I have nothing whatsoever to hide now nor have I ever had anything to hide.

This woman is sending so many mixed signals I don't think SHE even understands what is coming out of her mouth. Bottom line is that I know I screwed up by getting angry this morning but enough is enough! She is being so verbally, emotionally and psychologically abusive to me right now it's not even funny.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/05/12 01:49 PM
Right now, the more I think about things, the more I really don't care if this gets fixed or not. She has become such a selfish person that I don't want to even be around her. I can't talk to her without her twisting everything I say around to make it look like things are my fault. I honestly can't really stand her right now.

I know this is the anger talking but if she's trying to completely kill every last bit of my love for her she's doing a very good job of it.

Oh and by the way...she said she's definitely not seeing anyone. Heard that one before...
Posted By: xtremepain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/05/12 02:52 PM
I totally get you,lfh.
WW pretty much cleaned out her Love bank account in me today.Sometimes,I get so angry and detached ,I dont know whats there to be saved.
Posted By: Logans_Run Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/05/12 04:21 PM
I hope you grilled hamburgers last night or plan to do that today..and what to do with this extra raw hamburger meat? grin
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/05/12 04:41 PM
Can someone tell me where the motivation is supposed to come from when the WW keeps doing things like this?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/05/12 04:42 PM
Logans_Run,

That made me chuckle again! If Mel sees that you'll be in trouble.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/05/12 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Can someone tell me where the motivation is supposed to come from when the WW keeps doing things like this?

Read these and I hope they inspire.
Be the lighthouse
Mortarman's thread
Mortarman's update
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/05/12 07:08 PM
Thanks Brain. I'll read them. At the moment I'm teetering on the top of the fence where on side is to continue to push on with the plan and the other is to forget about this because I am starting to seriously wonder if she's worth it.

I know I sound very depressed and defeated because I just about am.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/05/12 08:13 PM
Gosh, this is so frustrating!!! Every time I start thinking about the things she says to me I get so frustrated. I can tell beneath all this FOG that she is still interested in me and our marriage. This FOG is just clouding her judgement and thought process so badly she can't see the forest because of all the trees in the way.

I know Plan A has a good chance of working but it's just so frustrating to see the real wife in there periodically and not be able to reach in there and get her. I know it may sound crazy but I get glimpses of the real wife inside that alien every once in a while.

Like this morning...she was standing her chewing me out and telling me how unhappy she has been and doesn't want to stay in a relationship where she's not happy because she has realized that life is too short for that and then followed that sentence up with "well, if you weren't staying out all night you might not need to be sleeping until 8:00am". When in fact I was not out all night. She is so concerned about where I am and what I'm "into" that she can't stand it. But she's not even able to see that she's concerned.

WTH!!! This alien has latched onto my wife and I want to get her out of there!

I have until May 9th to figure out everything I want to put in my counter strike divorce decree. I'll be posting ideas and would like honest (like I don't get THAT on here) opinions on whether I should put each thing or not. I'm really hoping that my counter will have some effect.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/05/12 08:45 PM
Damn this hour by hour emotional roller coaster.

Where am I right now??

I will NOT lose my wife to something like this!!!!
Posted By: Logans_Run Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/05/12 08:52 PM
Suggestion...fry up some bacon to go with them burgers....not cooking a couple slices fully, just enough to soften, then slowly wrap the soft cooked bacon around the raw hamburger.......in other words get the gps done already..
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/05/12 11:37 PM
I'm trying to decide on how to go about the GPS.

I had a second to step back from this situation for a brief second and realized something that I'm sure all of you already have realized.....how utterly hilarious the WW's behavior actually is.

She files divorce papers but she still wants to know where I am and what/who I doing. Now, she doesn't want to even text me back when I ask her the simple question of what time was she thinking of dropping the girls off tomorrow. I mean seriously...am I dealing with a high school girl here?

When I thought about that just a minute ago I thought it was pretty funny. I didn't text her last night at 10pm to let her know when I got home so now she won't text me about the drop-off time for the girls.

Absolutely insane behavior!

A.L.I.E.N!!!!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/05/12 11:54 PM
If anyone is one here tonight I want to see what opinions you have about something.

I have been running the idea through my head to tell/reiterate WW tomorrow morning when she brings the kids over something like:

"I am not gonna sit around and wait on you forever but I am NOT gonna give up on this marriage as easily as you might want. We have built too much and have way too much to just give up on that easily. So I don't really care how you feel right now about things but don't expect me to just give up on things just because you are in a "different place".

Just wanted to get some opinions.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/06/12 12:15 AM
So how is this gonna work?

I'm trying to be nice and pleasant to her and build a comfortable situation and then BAM! she gets the papers from my lawyer next week that says I'm filing for full custody of the kids and she will never be able to bring them around the POSOM, etc, etc.

Won't that just pretty much destroy any pleasant/comfortable situation that I have tried to build.

Y'all, I know it's Saturday night and no one is on here listening to me but that's ok. If I didn't have this college final project that I had to work on I wouldn't be on here harassing everyone.

This has been and will continue to be my safe haven. It helps me to post even if no one is around to post back immediately.
Posted By: Logans_Run Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/06/12 12:30 AM
I doubt.....more likely to shake her up a little and she will slam you with some fog babble so ignore it and offer her some chips and a soda, or a burger if you have it. grin

And i am not a vet...wait for them to edit your statement.....
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/06/12 03:25 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
"I am not gonna sit around and wait on you forever but I am NOT gonna give up on this marriage as easily as you might want. We have built too much and have way too much to just give up on that easily. So I don't really care how you feel right now about things but don't expect me to just give up on things just because you are in a "different place".

Straight from Dr. Harley
Originally Posted by Dr.Harley
To insist that the wayward spouse end the affair should not be made with the threat of punishment ("I'm make you suffer if you don't end it"), but rather with the simple fact that it's the most painful experience you've ever had in your life, and if the affair is not ended, your relationship must end with either a separation or divorce. To end the marital relationship is not punishment: It's to protect your own mental and physical health.

So I definitely think you need to tell her what you wrote.
Posted By: Scotland Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/06/12 11:28 AM
During Plan A, there is the carrot(meeting ENs), and the stick(filing papers, exposure, etc). When she gets the papers, she's gonna be MAD and she'll call you. You don't talk about divorce, only marital recovery. You need to do what you have to to protect your children, and let the lawyers hash it out. This could all be different if she agreed to NC for LIFE with OM, and a plan for marital recovery. Then, you ask her if she wants a cookie, to change the subject.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/06/12 12:02 PM
Just out of curiosity I'm wondering what y'all think about me not wearing my wedding band? A couple times I haven't worn it around her intentionally to see if I got a reaction and she noticed and reacted to herself but never said anything.

I really don't like not wearing it even now but I was curious if the effect was worth using.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/06/12 02:27 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
So how is this gonna work?

I'm trying to be nice and pleasant to her and build a comfortable situation and then BAM! she gets the papers from my lawyer next week that says I'm filing for full custody of the kids and she will never be able to bring them around the POSOM, etc, etc.

Won't that just pretty much destroy any pleasant/comfortable situation that I have tried to build.

Oh no it won't! I think you will be really surprised at her reaction. By filing the papers, you will earn her respect because she will see that you are not going to roll over. She may be initially angry, but it will blow over.

You just stick to the plan and you will be fine. No guarantees, but the path you are on will be the most likely to get your wife back while protecting yourself legally.

You are doing just great!

edited to add: put your wedding ring back on! you are married!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/06/12 02:29 PM
A wayward will use the absence of your ring as justification for her affair. "BS thinks it is over too so therefore I am justified in having my affair."
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/06/12 02:45 PM
I really feel the same way about the ring. I AM married and I should be wearing it. the only reason I didn't those couple times is for the reaction.

Sorry I slipped up on that. I am putting it back on now.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/06/12 02:49 PM
Good man!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/06/12 02:51 PM
It was a subtle but interesting reaction this morning when I told her that I wasn't gonna wait forever but I wasn't gonna roll over and concede this marriage as easily as she might want me to because there is too much here and TOO MUCH BETWEEN US STILL, EVEN THOUGH SHE DOESN'T WANT TO ADMIT IT. Yes, I did say that. Hope it wasn't "out of line" from what I should have said. I just thought it fit the situation and her reactions.

Her reaction was quiet but telling I think. She didn't say anything but she teared up and lowered her head. I asked her to look at me (please) while I told her what I had to say.

I hope it made some sort of impact but I'm not gonna build myself up with false hope. I have come to realize with all of everyone's help that this is a long journey.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/06/12 02:57 PM
That is the exact approach you should be taking. You did good! And when she is served with those papers next week, she will get a huge wake up call because she has been fantasizing about an easy divorce where you roll over. Getting those papers will be a huge wake up call, especially when you name OM in the papers.

Next steps should be to act as pleasantly as possible and work on bringing the affair out into the open. Have you figured out a way to spy on her?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/06/12 02:57 PM
She seems like she is in such turmoil and pain right now I kind of feel sorry for her. It seems like most of the time here lately when I start to talk to her in any kind of serious way she gets teary-eyed and looks away.

Is that a sign of the fog changing in any way or am I just letting my imagination get the best of me....again?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/06/12 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
She seems like she is in such turmoil and pain right now I kind of feel sorry for her. It seems like most of the time here lately when I start to talk to her in any kind of serious way she gets teary-eyed and looks away.

Is that a sign of the fog changing in any way or am I just letting my imagination get the best of me....again?

Oh, I am sure she is in great turmoil and is having second thoughts now because you are not rolling over. She is addicted to the OM and has left you to pursue her affair. But there are so many problems making that plan a reality that she is in great turmoil. We just need for her to see you as a great option.

Do you have the book Surviving an Affair?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/06/12 03:03 PM
I really haven't figured out a way to spy more yet. I'm still working on that. I kinda think she knows better than to try to meet him somewhere because I really think she still thinks I'm watching her. She still thinks I put the gps on her truck before she traded it even though I told her I didn't.

With all that said, I'm still trying to find a way to do some snooping anyway.

I'm kind of afraid to try the sneaking over to her sister's house to place the gps because there is AMPLE opportunity to get caught.

I really wish I could find a gps that didn't have to be recharged but didn't have to be hardwired (which I know is stupid to even say).
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/06/12 03:05 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I'm kind of afraid to try the sneaking over to her sister's house to place the gps because there is AMPLE opportunity to get caught.

Ask a friend to do this for you.
You wait in a parked car.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/06/12 03:05 PM
I do have that book as well as HNHN, Fall in Love Stay in Love and Love Busters. Already read Surviving Affair but am re-reading it.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/06/12 03:58 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I do have that book as well as HNHN, Fall in Love Stay in Love and Love Busters. Already read Surviving Affair but am re-reading it.

I would leave Surviving an Affair lying around for her to see. She might pick it up.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/06/12 06:03 PM
Judging from some of her reactions so far, I think she will be/act more hurt than mad when she gets the paperwork from my lawyer this week. I can handle her anger but it'll be tough to see her hurt and crying.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/07/12 12:22 PM
Some days are more difficult than others. I start thinking about some of the things she has said, her behavior toward me and the things that she has done and it gets very discouraging.

She acts like she actually hates me. Me. The person that she fell in love with and had kids with. Like she doesn't even care if I exist on this planet at times.

She seems to only care about herself right now. Sometimes she doesn't even seem to care if she's with her babies or not. That sounds harsh but sometimes I honestly believe that if she were to admit the REAL truth to herself, she has only one person on her mind right now and that's HER.

She actually said to me about a week ago that she was trying to figure out what made HER happy and what SHE wanted out of life. Now how much more self-center can you be? I understand that we need to be happy with ourselves in life but she has appeared to take it to a new level.

I really hope the affair is what's causing all this behavior because if it is, that's more than likely repairable. If it's not the affair, I don't know if this will be repairable or not.

What I am piecing together is that she has taken several things that were worth money. She withdrew the money from our joint account that was to be used for our kids' school, she took her engagement ring which is worth several thousand dollars, she basically used me to get her new car which she wouldn't have gotten without me (I normally don't say things like that because I don't do things for her or others and expect something in return nor would I ever throw it up in their face), and a couple other smaller things.

I understand the money is significant to help her out while we're separated but is that typical behavior of waywards?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/07/12 01:16 PM
Have you cut off her access to your money? And everything you described is classic affair behavior. She is addicted to the OM. The affair is still on, I assure you. What you can do is take her off all bank accounts and credit cards.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/07/12 01:52 PM
I have removed access to any joint accounts.

I continue to try to make sense of her behavior but I know I can't because it can't be explained logically. It is what it is right now.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/07/12 02:00 PM
Her behavior makes sense when you accept that this is an addiction.
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/07/12 07:41 PM
She's pretty normal in terms of a WW. I would stand firm about your son.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/08/12 01:20 AM
Is it possible that she had the affair with the POSOM and maybe he ran for the hills when it was exposed but now she is "addicted" to the idea of the possibility of finding another man besides the POSOM? You know, kind of addicted to the idea of someone different than me?

OR

Is it more likely that she has started contact back up with him telling him the we are divorcing and that they can now be together?

Is is common/normal for the WS to stick with the OP that they had the actual affair with rather than latch onto the "idea" of any OP other than their BS?

Stupid hypothetical question I know. I am just wondering what the possibilities are that I might be battling here. I'm gonna get the lawyers to contact the POSOM in some fashion but I want to be sure to get them to put something in the papers that show her that absolutely NO OP will be tolerated. I don't know if that's even possible to put in the papers.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/08/12 02:26 PM
Sorry I keep asking these questions. I guess I'm just searching for answers to something I can't make myself believe or whatever.

I do get it that she is addicted. I guess it's just hard for me to accept or completely understand because I hae never had an addiction to anything. It's hard for me to grasp that something can be so strong that a person would be willing to leave their marriage, home, life and babies.

I believe y'all when you tell me that she is addicted to the OM or at least to the fantasy of the OM. I am just trying my best to understand how someone cannot see what they are doing and how messed up it is.

Please dont think I'm doubting the answers or advice on here. Just trying to understand something that I may never be able to understand.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/08/12 02:39 PM
Have you ever known an alcoholic or someone else who is an addict?

Read some AA literature and it will be an eye opener for you.

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
It's similar to the feelings an alcoholic has when he makes a commitment never to drink again. It's also similar to the grief that comes from the loss of a loved one. A lover is like alcohol and like a loved one. Not only do unfaithful spouses miss what it was their lovers did, meeting important emotional needs,but they also miss the person they had come to love.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/08/12 02:52 PM
So am I to assume that if she does "wake up" and decide to come back to work on our marriage, this will be a constant battle within herself or for me the rest of our marriage?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/08/12 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
So am I to assume that if she does "wake up" and decide to come back to work on our marriage, this will be a constant battle within herself or for me the rest of our marriage?
If she has boundaries and implements EP's then she won't have as much of a "constant battle, but like Dr. H says "we are all wired for an affair"
Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
We are all wired for affairs. The only people who are exempt are those who are utterly incapable of meeting someone else's emotional needs. If you can't meet anyone's needs, no one will ever fall in love with you. But if your spouse has anything to offer others, and you are not meeting an important emotional need, commitment to "forsake all others" can become words without meaning.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/08/12 03:08 PM
So basically if I do my job she won't think about doing this again?

Does it not work like "she had a taste and will always crave it?"
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/08/12 03:10 PM
Kinda makes me feel like all the pressure and responsibility is gonna be on me. That's not hardly fair.

Am I just misunderstanding?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/08/12 03:18 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Kinda makes me feel like all the pressure and responsibility is gonna be on me. That's not hardly fair.

Am I just misunderstanding?
The BS definitely has to do the hard work. That's why a lot of people say "adultery is the get out of jail free card". Some WS are so remorseful that they do all the hardworking, but those are the minority. Only you know how much you can handle.

We are all here to help support those that want to put the hard work in.

If you're looking for a guarantee that she won't ever cheat again. I answer that with "if she follows Dr. Harley's plan EXACTLY then yes she will never cheat again".

We have BS on here that their WS cheated on them a d their
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/08/12 03:24 PM
And their BS was meeting their needs perfectly, but the WS had no boundaries.

Melodylane is a perfect example of that. Her H's needs were meet perfectly and he still had an affair.

The Harleys say " there are reasons for having an affair BUT never excuses"

We have had posters leave their marriages with even a repentant WS and they still choose to leave. Stay here and read long enough and you'll see the stories. We have one on the recovery board as we speak. Read wulffpack_girl for an example.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/08/12 03:49 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
So am I to assume that if she does "wake up" and decide to come back to work on our marriage, this will be a constant battle within herself or for me the rest of our marriage?
For most people, the addiction is to the particular affair partner, not to affairs per se. There are some people who are addicted to affairs, but they tend to show up as serial adulterers. When one affair is discovered, a whole string of others pops up at the same time.

For your wife and most waywards, there is a lifelong addiction - but that is to the individual with whom they had the affair. And this means that yes, she will forever be vulnerable to him and that the affair could be reignited by chance contact - or just by one of them missing the other badly after years have passed, and initiating contact. This can happen even when the marriage is going well.

Dr Harley suggests that this is more likely to be the case for wayward husbands. Men seem to be easily capable of loving more than one woman at a time, and can have a fulfilling, recovered marriage and still retain feelings of love for OW. Somewhere he writes that when he asks a happy, seemingly recovered FWH why he contacted OW again after years, he is told that the man misses OW dreadfully and did it simply because he wanted to. Dr H writes that he believes a FWH needs extra help to keep away from his OW for life, and that he likes those he has worked with to keep in touch with him (Dr H) so that he can keep the FWH accountable. When asked by BWs what is the point of being married if the H will always love someone else, he has to tell them that these are the facts. Presumable they want to be married for good reasons, and the fact that the H retains these feelings does not mean that the marriage will not be very happy; it can be.

Wives are less likely to yearn for OM if their marriage recovers, because women are far less able to love more than one man at a time, so in that way, things are more hopeful for you than they are for me and other wives here. If she falls back in love with you, she won't have active feelings of love for OM. However, just as an alcoholic is always vulnerable to even one drink if they are exposed to it, a FWS is always vulnerable to their particular affair partner, and must stay well away from accidental contact.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/08/12 05:04 PM
One reason I ask the question about whether she might be addicted to the "fantasy" of any affair or single life is because even though the OM told me and her that he would not be waiting around on her if we divorced, she made the comment that even if he wasn't waiting around on her there would be somebody out there for her.

Although she said this in a pretty heated discussion we had it still resonated with me. I know I have a terrible tendency to analyze EVERYTHING, I don't know if this was just fogbabble or if there is any significance to it.

I guess sometimes I just wonder if she just really doesn't love me any more and I am fighting a losing battle. I'm not giving up but sometimes I get depressed about things when I start thinking about them. It's really hard to stay positive all the time.

I miss the "real" her and I miss my kids. I didn't ask for this and I don't deserve to be missing ANY time with my kids.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/08/12 05:15 PM
Sorry your feeling down LFH... do you work out on a regular basis? If not I would suggest you do .. start pumping Iron .. running .. etc ... build up your physique. NOt only will it improve your self esteem, it will get your wife looking at ya too! I myself have been working out now stead 4x a week for the past 12 weeks ... what a HUGE difference. I walk with alor more pride than I used to .. and my wife has a hard time keeping her hands off me and shes been noticing that other ladies are now checking me out haha .. shes been alot more attentive too!

I know your not with your wife right now and thats tough especially not being with your kids .. but if you start working out and work on YOU ... give her some bedroom eyes next time you see her but without a look of desperation behind it. Moods are infectious. If you emit a downer mood ... then your wife picks up on it so project a mood that doesnt allow that desperate side to leak out. Women dont like men who act desperate its a turn off.

Dont ACT desperate... act confident that no matter the outcome you will be FINE. OF course you continue with PLAN A .. but only as long as YOU want to. You can not force your wife to do anyhting .. but you can begin to work on yourself to be a better man.

You are ABSOLUTELY right .. you didnt ask for or deserve this .. but it is what it is. Keep trucking ... PLAN A ... etc.. but get a better self image while your working PLan A.

MNG
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/08/12 05:32 PM
MrNiceGuy,

Thanks for the encouragement. I do OK until the days I don't have the kids. I mean I still miss my "real" wife terribly, but when my kids are gone too it makes for a pretty depressing time.

I actually have been working out. It has been tough because I have the kids every 2 days and I was taking 2 college classes online not to mention the full-time job. I just finished my classes for this semester and have decided to not take any during the summer semester. I'm gonna take that time to work on this marriage, the house, Plan A, spend all the time I can with my kids and work on myself.

I understand what you mean about working on myself but that doesn't come very easily for me. I am such a devoted family man (which I know the rest of you are too or you wouldn't be here) I just have a VERY hard time being alone or without my family in tact. It's tough for me to think about and do things without thinking about or including my family, but I understand that I don't really have a cohesive family unit right now.

These emotional times come and go. I have been trying to work out, eat better and make myself a more "desirable" man. I have unfortunately and unwillingly lost about 24lbs because of all the stress. People that I work with have all been complimenting me but I don't tell them why I have lost weight. They all think I've been on a diet. I have never been a heavy guy anyway but losing 24lbs is very noticeable on anyone.

I understand what you're saying and agree. I just have a terribly hard time sometimes doing things in life without being able to share them with my family. And I seriously miss my kids. I would do anything and give up anything for those girls.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/08/12 09:55 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
And their BS was meeting their needs perfectly, but the WS had no boundaries.

Melodylane is a perfect example of that. Her H's needs were meet perfectly and he still had an affair.

The Harleys say " there are reasons for having an affair BUT never excuses"

We have had posters leave their marriages with even a repentant WS and they still choose to leave. Stay here and read long enough and you'll see the stories. We have one on the recovery board as we speak. Read wulffpack_girl for an example.

If I remember right Melodylane said she had a mean independent behavior attitude.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/08/12 10:17 PM
Originally Posted by TheRoad
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
And their BS was meeting their needs perfectly, but the WS had no boundaries.

Melodylane is a perfect example of that. Her H's needs were meet perfectly and he still had an affair.

The Harleys say " there are reasons for having an affair BUT never excuses"

We have had posters leave their marriages with even a repentant WS and they still choose to leave. Stay here and read long enough and you'll see the stories. We have one on the recovery board as we speak. Read wulffpack_girl for an example.

If I remember right Melodylane said she had a mean independent behavior attitude.

Which didn't enter my marriage until years LATER. His affair had nothing to do with unmet needs or lovebusters.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/08/12 10:21 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
So am I to assume that if she does "wake up" and decide to come back to work on our marriage, this will be a constant battle within herself or for me the rest of our marriage?


nonononoo, it won't. Not if you follow these steps for recovery. It is just like a recovering alcoholic. He learns to not place himself in temptations way. He stays out of bars, keeps booze out of his house, etc. In order for you to agree to accept your wife back, she will have to commit to a program of recovery that involves establishing appropriate boundaries around men. She has very inappropriate boundaries around men.

And if she won't make those changes, then you won't have a marriage anyway and will be better off divorced.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/09/12 12:17 AM
Just so I'm prepared, what are the steps or what should I prepare for once I counter file?

Is there a response or anything that I need to be aware of for when she gets served my counter paperwork?

I'm filing for permanent Sole custody on the grounds of adultery and abandonment. She will be furious with the abandonment because she has maintained the stance throughout this whole time that she has never abandoned her kids.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/09/12 01:50 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by TheRoad
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
And their BS was meeting their needs perfectly, but the WS had no boundaries.

Melodylane is a perfect example of that. Her H's needs were meet perfectly and he still had an affair.

The Harleys say " there are reasons for having an affair BUT never excuses"

We have had posters leave their marriages with even a repentant WS and they still choose to leave. Stay here and read long enough and you'll see the stories. We have one on the recovery board as we speak. Read wulffpack_girl for an example.

If I remember right Melodylane said she had a mean independent behavior attitude.

Which didn't enter my marriage until years LATER. His affair had nothing to do with unmet needs or lovebusters.

Wouldn't you say it was because of his lack of boundaries Mel?
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/09/12 02:54 AM
Don't over react to anything she files. It is easy to do when you're on the receiving end. The best response is calm when she flies off the handle.

What should you expect? Expect her to get dirty and fling false accusations of abuse at you either about her or about the kids.

If you don't think she'd do that, then you'd be committing a classic mistake. That's the most common mistake most men make. They assume she'd never stoop so low.

Well, she stooped low enough to have an affair. You never imagined that either, right?

Just be careful.

Filing something doesn't make it so. Just keep that in mind. I use to freak out at stuff my ex use to file. It's an expensive mistake. Unless there is actual evidence, then there is nothing to defend against. The smartest thing you can do is stay quiet about legal matters and don't let her bait you into debates over legal things. Any attempt to do so should be met with, "My lawyer talks divorce stuff. I'm happy to discuss marriage and how we can rebuild."
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/09/12 03:40 AM
I kind of hesitate to ask this because I'm afraid I know what everyone will say and I'm not sure I am ready to hear it or do it.

When I counter file, i know I'm filing for permanent sole custody but do y'all think I should file for temporary sole custody as well or just leave it as it is with temporary joint custody in the meantime.

The main reason I have even been considering leaving it as temp joint is because I dont know if it would be a good idea for the kids right now. Now I do understand that if she goes through with this there is the possibility that I will come out with sole custody anyway permanently which would take them from her the majority of the time anyway. But if she chose to do that then she probably doesnt need to be around them anyway.

Opinions? I'm meeting with the lawyers at 5pm tomorrow
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/09/12 03:52 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I kind of hesitate to ask this because I'm afraid I know what everyone will say and I'm not sure I am ready to hear it or do it.

When I counter file, i know I'm filing for permanent sole custody but do y'all think I should file for temporary sole custody as well or just leave it as it is with temporary joint custody in the meantime.

The main reason I have even been considering leaving it as temp joint is because I dont know if it would be a good idea for the kids right now. Now I do understand that if she goes through with this there is the possibility that I will come out with sole custody anyway permanently which would take them from her the majority of the time anyway. But if she chose to do that then she probably doesnt need to be around them anyway.

Opinions? I'm meeting with the lawyers at 5pm tomorrow
I would fight for everything. I think it sends two very STRONG messages.

One that you're fighting for the best interests of your children.

Two it is sending a message that your're fighting against infidelity and her affair.

I would put a clause that she can't bring any OM around your kids.

Fight!!!!! That's my message.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/09/12 10:33 AM
I know it sounds way too compationate but would it not be beneficial at all to do the temp joint custody so she still can see her kids while she thinks about the fact that I filed for perm sole custody if she doesnt wake up?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/09/12 10:38 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I know it sounds way too compationate but would it not be beneficial at all to do the temp joint custody so she still can see her kids while she thinks about the fact that I filed for perm sole custody if she doesnt wake up?
Some WW's need the wake up of losing her kids to jolt her.

Women do not respect doormats.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/09/12 10:42 AM
I should say that even with temp sole custody she will still be able to see the kids. I wouldnt keep them from their mother.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/09/12 10:47 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I should say that even with temp sole custody she will still be able to see the kids. I wouldnt keep them from their mother.

Of course not. What I'm saying is it can do a number on a mother not having primary custody of her children. Since we live in a society that still favors mothers somewhat that there are questions/stigmas in peoples minds.

Like "I wonder what's wrong with her to not have primary custody of her kids"
It also says "wow what a dad to fight for primary custody and to have won".

You know what I mean? KWIM?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/09/12 10:54 AM
I do know what you mean and I agree.

Thats what I have to do. I know that now. Thank you.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/09/12 10:57 AM
The truths in a situiation like this are hard to admit, say and hear much less to do.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/09/12 11:03 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
The truths in a situiation like this are hard to admit, say and hear much less to do.

I know, my friend. We've all been there and it doesn't feel good.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/09/12 11:23 AM
I know one thing for sure though...my kids mean the world to me.

Edit: and if people have to be made mad or get their feelings hurt for me to make sure they are taken care of then so be it.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/09/12 11:58 AM
She is trying everything in her power to make me angry.

She just called to ask something about the kids like she always does. She uses that as an excuse to call or text me and then she throws something else in there.

So she calls and asks me an irrelevant question about the kids and then goes into why she really called. She tried to dig around and find out what I was doing yesterday evening. Why does she care? This is crazy. So I didn't elaborate on anything.

She then asks me if I wanted to sell the house? WTH???!!! We have not even seen both lawyers yet and she's trying to sell the house? I told her that I did not want to sell the house and why was she even telling people that it was for sale. She said she didn't, her sister was asked by someone if we were selling.

She is completely off her reality rocker!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/09/12 12:51 PM
And she is so hateful when she talks to me. Hard to swallow when she's like that.

I have never known anyone with an addiction. That's why it's so hard for me to understand her behavior. I have always been the type of person that believes if you have enough willpower then you cannot become susceptible to anything that you don't choose to.

I do believe people have different levels of willpower and that we are all wired differently. I have always maintained that an affair is something that a person chooses to do. I have never believed that it can happen "by accident" so to speak. I'm not trying to offend anyone on here that has become victim to an affair but I'm having a very difficult time understanding addiction.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/09/12 10:59 PM
I know this sounds crazy but I think it's starting to work and I havent even filed anything yet. On the road right now. Will tell more later.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/09/12 11:02 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I know this sounds crazy but I think it's starting to work and I havent even filed anything yet. On the road right now. Will tell more later.
Stay strong, my friend.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 12:24 AM
Will do. I wish I had "audio forum" or something. There's so much to type.

I went to meet with my lawyer this afternoon. We (lawyer and I) were talking and guess what happens.....my phone rings. I know, big surprise huh? It's the WW. I don't answer because of obvious reasons. She has a knack of calling when I'm in meetings. So she calls 4 more times and texts twice and finally leaves a voicemail. All the voicemail says is basically the same thing the text says..."We need to find some way to communicate about the girls if you aren't gonna answer your phone." What's that you ask? What was the 4 phone call and 2 text emergency about the kids? Don't know. She didn't leave the info in the VM.

So I call her back to be sure all is ok. She's at the house...inside. Says she's looking for the baby thermometer. I calmly tell her that she doesn't need to be at the house per the lawyer. That she needs to get the thermometer and nothing else. Long story short she goes off about calling her lawyer and getting the police involved if needed to get her stuff.

Anyway...that wasn't the good part. I won't type all of it because y'all will get tired of reading. Basically I find out that I think she only filed because she was afraid I was going to after what I told her the other day about following through with what I promised I would do. She thought I had already gone to a lawyer so she said she needed to protect herself. Well that is true...she definitely needs to protect herself, but she needs to protect herself from herself because she contradicts herself more often than anyone I know.

So we talk for about 30 minutes about what I did and didn't do for her and how a person can only "try" for so long and then gives up. I tell her several times that all she has to do is tell me that she wants to work on repairing/rebuilding our marriage and we will start on it today, but until she says she wants to commit to working on things I will continue to carry out what I promised her I would do.

She said something about the lawyers and I calmly say "so we went from talking about repairing our marriage to talking about involving lawyers again huh" and she said "no, blah blah blah". I actually took that as encouraging. She slipped up and let her guard down that there is a part of her that isn't sure that she wants a divorce.

So she says she has to go because the baby is crying. She tells me that she will call me back later tonight "if that's what I want". I just said "alright" and we hung up.

There was so many little things in that conversation that hinted at the fact that she is having some MAJOR second thoughts. She even brought up that I have not been home much at all lately (not true) and that I have gotten off work early every day lately (not true). She also asked me who the new girl was??? Really??? Again???

She is so unsure of her decisions right now. I feel like she will call back or come over here this evening. I have committed myself to not getting upset and staying calm. I know I can let my emotions lead me astray in this situation when it comes to her, but I really feel like she may be trying to work her way out of the fog. If she didn't or wasn't interested in me and really did want the divorce I don't believe she would be talking about some of the things she's talking about or trying to get me to talk about things...like what she....

So forget about what I said...she's still being a WW!!!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 12:51 AM
So I misread that I guess. She called back and by the end of the conversation she basically said that there is not much else to say because it won't make any difference anyway.

One minute she says she doesn't want to talk about divorce and the next breath she says there's nothing else to say because we're not getting anywhere.

Don't know how much more I can stand.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 11:50 AM
In all of our conversations the past few days or week she has hinted ever so slightly that there are still thoughts/indecisions that she is trying to work through. The thing that knocks me off track is that we will have these conversations and they will go from confrontational to heart-breaking to "well we're not getting anywhere and I'm still unhappy".

Can anyone give me any clue as to whether these are any of the signs of changes in the fog?

I am getting the feeling that she is hurt and mad at the same time, but I can't figure out whether it's at me, herself or both.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 11:57 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
In all of our conversations the past few days or week she has hinted ever so slightly that there are still thoughts/indecisions that she is trying to work through. The thing that knocks me off track is that we will have these conversations and they will go from confrontational to heart-breaking to "well we're not getting anywhere and I'm still unhappy".

Can anyone give me any clue as to whether these are any of the signs of changes in the fog?

I am getting the feeling that she is hurt and mad at the same time, but I can't figure out whether it's at me, herself or both.

Read this it might help understand IF a WW might be coming out of it.

Actions are what will tell you. WW's are very manipulative.
A recovery Guide for WW
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 12:06 PM
To me she is vacillating back and forth.

She Might be struggling, but I think she's still foggy.

Continue to protect yourself and maintain your boundaries.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 12:33 PM
My lawyer is telling me to change the door locks but I know that's gonna upset her and make her mad at me again. I feel like every time I do something that makes her mad it will push her further away and set back any progress that has been made.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 12:39 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
My lawyer is telling me to change the door locks but I know that's gonna upset her and make her mad at me again. I feel like every time I do something that makes her mad it will push her further away and set back any progress that has been made.
Wasn't she mad when you were Mr. Not Upset her guy also?

Maintain your boundaries but pleasant but not a doormat.

Why change the locks?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 12:51 PM
Did you file for divorce? I am unclear about what you did at the lawyers. And while I would continue to be as pleasant as possible I would continue to avoid the appearance of being at het beck and call. If she is allowed to bully you, she will hate you for that. So I would continue to be firm and show her that you have boundaries now.

I don't see any valid reason to change the locks, do you?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 01:04 PM
ML,
The lawyer's point for changing the locks is to keep her from having the opportunity to come into the house and "plant" anything that could hurt my chances of custody.

I don't think she would do anything like that because we are still being civil. I don't want to change the locks but I also don't want to take any chances with my kids.

At the lawyers office, we "acknowledged" that I had received her paperwork and have started my own counter filing paperwork. From this point I have a few weeks before I legally have to have my paperwork completed and filed. I am filing though, so don't think I have gone soft again. I am not allowing her to bully/control my actions any longer.

She know's that I'm counter filing and she is very upset about it. She doesn't know that I haven't as of yesterday. I'm working on the necessary paperwork and will be getting back to my lawyer as soon as I have it complete.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 01:11 PM
She keeps telling me that some of the things that I have said to her throughout this time have hurt her and she don't think she will be able to move past them.

I continue to tell her that anger and hurt feelings can all be mended and forgiven by working on the marriage and rebuilding the love we have for each other. I also continue to tell her that there is a way to do that and all she has to do is tell me that she wants to begin working on it.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 01:46 PM
BrainHurts,

I just want to say I appreciate the link to that post. It is absolutely UNCANNY how that parallels her behavior right now.

Edit: I honestly wish I could let/get her to read it. I know I shouldn't do anything like that right now but at some point I wish she could read it.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 01:53 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
BrainHurts,

I just want to say I appreciate the link to that post. It is absolutely UNCANNY how that parallels her behavior right now.

Edit: I honestly wish I could let/get her to read it. I know I shouldn't do anything like that right now but at some point I wish she could read it.

If she chooses recovery then hopefully she will be on board with MB and then she could.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 02:06 PM
I hope she does get to read it, because the more I read the closer my jaw got to the floor because it is describing her to a T.

She is talking about the emotional neglect that she has "endured" for years and that she tried to tell me (indirectly) and that she feels like she doesn't know if things could ever be repaired or whatever.
She says she has been hurting for so long that a person can only take that for so long before they just give up, etc, etc. That article is her story exactly. I just wish she could read it or talk to someone who has experienced the same things she is experiencing. It doesn't resonate with her when I try to explain it to her.

In time maybe...in time.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 02:16 PM
Listen to this radio clips of a FWW and her FBH. It's excellent and will give you some insight.
Radio clip of FWW and her FBH in a recovered Marriage
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

They both did the MB plan.

Tell me what you think.



Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 02:23 PM
Lfh, did you let her know that you would be willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness? You are giving her the impression that you will take her back under ANY conditions and that is the wrong message to send. You should be a broken record telli g her that you would be willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness and come back UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 02:36 PM
Mel,

I have not said that to her. I didn't know if it was time or not. All the conversations have been in regards to her issues with the emotional neglect she has experienced and indecision about her feelings. No talk has been brought up about the affair and I didn't want to bring it up right now for fear of pushing her further away.

Now, don't misunderstand me in thinking that I'm pushing it under the rug because I am never going to do that. I have kept it in mind that we were going to deal with it but I didn't know when to do that. I have been afraid that in her turmoil right now that I shouldn't bring it up.

She has been pretty straight forward in openly (seemingly) voicing that she has not seen nor talked to the OM during the separation. Now, I WANT to believe that but I don't right now. I still have trust issues.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 02:39 PM
What ARE your conditions? You do have them, correct?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 02:48 PM
I don't have everything. I know the following:

1. Complete transparency
2. Full open and honest communication

I know that's not much of a list but I haven't thought too much about it yet. I'm still trying to get her to agree to work on things so I haven't tried to work on that list. What are some suggestions?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 02:59 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I don't have everything. I know the following:

1. Complete transparency
2. Full open and honest communication

I know that's not much of a list but I haven't thought too much about it yet. I'm still trying to get her to agree to work on things so I haven't tried to work on that list. What are some suggestions?

Write a NC letter.
Put EP's in place.
No nights apart.
No opposite sex friendships.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 03:03 PM
She has to choose recovery first though right? She's not gonna agree to a NC if she's still in the fog will she?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 03:07 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
She has to choose recovery first though right? She's not gonna agree to a NC if she's still in the fog will she?

Read this.
Coping with Infidelity:The End How Affairs should End

Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 03:08 PM
I just finished listening to those radio clips and they were great! How in the world do I get her to listen to me or understand some of the things that will help her deal with her part of what we are going through?

I feel like there is so much information here on this forum that if she knew some of it, she would be able to deal with things so much better and the information would also be able to help her so much. How do I get the information that I learn here to her in a way that she doesn't feel like I am trying to "manipulate" her.

That is her word by the way. She has accused me a couple times of trying to manipulate her.

I feel like she is teetering on top of that fence and every time I feel her leaning my way, something comes up that pulls her back the other way.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 03:09 PM
She has been and still is very adamant that the emotional neglect that she endured is the cause of our situation. This goes directly along with the forum post you sent me.

Is all this something that she has to come to understand on her own?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 03:12 PM
Remind me again. After your exposure did no one put pressure on her?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 03:19 PM
Not really. Everyone either acted like they didn't want to get "involved" in our problems or they said "well you know her. Once she gets something in her head no one can tell her any different".

So, no, I really have not had any support that I know of. She doesn't talk to anyone about what's going on. Not even her sister whom she has always talked to about stuff. She's keeping everything bottled up and dealing with it on her own.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 03:29 PM
Since she isn't living at home how are you verifying NC?

Did you tell her about MB? Did you ever put that GPS on her car?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 03:33 PM
I have no way to verify NC.

I haven't told her anything about MB.

No, I didn't put the GPS on her car. I spoke with a PI and he said that her particular car is (coincidentally) one of the few cars that don't have a very good place to put a GPS. He said that he has only been successful placing it inside the car. I trust him because he is a retired GBI agent and has been doing that for years.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 03:34 PM
Being separated makes some of the things I need to do very difficult.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 03:49 PM
The lawyer's point for changing the locks is to keep her from having the opportunity to come into the house and "plant" anything that could hurt my chances of custody.

Leave the locks alone. Secretly install a few cameras recording entrance to your house. If/when she sneaks in without alerting you, call the police.

Stop being "civil", if civil is defined as open to her treachery.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 04:21 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Mel,

I have not said that to her. I didn't know if it was time or not. All the conversations have been in regards to her issues with the emotional neglect she has experienced and indecision about her feelings. No talk has been brought up about the affair and I didn't want to bring it up right now for fear of pushing her further away.

This is what I suspected and this is a big mistake. You are giving her the impression that you have no conditions and you are allowing her to blame you for the affair. She is in charge right now and that is a bad thing.

It really is so ridiculous to say that saying this will "push her away." You do realize she has left you, right? So appeasement tactics are pushing her away. She will be attracted by a show of strength, not by acting the doormat who listens to her nonsense grievances.

You need to change the subject and stop allowing a wayward to lead the show here. Take back control. Tell her that you are not going to take her back unless she makes some serious changes. Let her know you will be willing to give her that opportunity.

She will be SHOCKED when you say that. She might even get mad at first. But she will come back with a new attitude very soon because you will have made yourself more attractive by raising your price.

And yes, she is still in touch with the OM. The affair is still on. It is very underground but I suspect she is in great turmoil because it is dawning on her that there is no future in her affair.

Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 04:28 PM
I really don't want to do anything with the locks. I actually thought about the cams last night and will look into that.

I really don't think she will come over any more without me knowing . I think she understands that it could have legal repercussions.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 04:31 PM
Mel,

I didn't realize that by not laying out those conditions it was allowing her to still be in control.

Now, since pretty much every time we actually talk it gets heated (because she starts accusing and bad-mouthing me), is it better to tell her this on the phone or email or what?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 04:35 PM
And Mel, I think you are exactly right (as usual) that she is in great turmoil right now. I think even as a rookie I can see it in her. One minute she's talking like she wants to repair and the next she's blaming me for "what I did to her". The next minute she's talking about how good of a dad I am and the next she's saying that I never did anything for the kids and now that she has left "I figured I should step up and be a good parent".

One sentence contradicts the next with her right now.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Mel,

I didn't realize that by not laying out those conditions it was allowing her to still be in control.

Now, since pretty much every time we actually talk it gets heated (because she starts accusing and bad-mouthing me), is it better to tell her this on the phone or email or what?

I think an email might be a good idea. That way she will have it in writing. When you talk to her, just reiterate your conditions. But you HAVE to tell her this and disabuse her of the notion that you will take her back under any conditions.

Say something like this:

Dear WW, I have been doing alot of thinking about this divorce and wanted to let you know where I stand. First off, you should know I am not willing to stay in a loveless marriage. I would be willing to stay in a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage. Because of that, I am willing to give you an opportunity to earn my forgiveness if you do certain things. This is what it will take to keep me interested:

1. end all contact with the OM for life - send him a no contact letter that is approved by me

2. no more nights apart or going out without each other

3. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc

4. no more opposite sex friendships

5. complete honesty about your affair

6. commit to the Marriage Builders program for recovery as outlined in the book Surviving an Affair.

I know our marriage was not perfect but I think we could turn it into a great marriage with this plan at Marriage Builders. I would be willing to try under those conditions. I am not going to drop the divorce right now, but if I see our marriage making some changes, I can consider doing so.

All my love, lookingforhelp
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
And Mel, I think you are exactly right (as usual) that she is in great turmoil right now. I think even as a rookie I can see it in her. One minute she's talking like she wants to repair and the next she's blaming me for "what I did to her". The next minute she's talking about how good of a dad I am and the next she's saying that I never did anything for the kids and now that she has left "I figured I should step up and be a good parent".

One sentence contradicts the next with her right now.

That is why you need to make a concerted effort right now to lead your marriage out of the ditch. You need to present a PLAN. With this you are offering her an olive branch that she sorely needs.

She sees no hope with a future with you, so that is what you need to present in the above email.

Her first response will be an AGHAST "FU!!!" because she is very used to running the show here. But you will have planted the seed. Be sweet...but be FIRM. And show her your PLAN.

Be a broken record: "I think we can have a great marriage. I am willing to give you an opportunity to earn my forgiveness."
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 05:02 PM
When she gets the email I expect her to call you to cuss you out. Don't take her call for at least an hour, ok?

Call her an hour later and say "sorry I could not get to you, dear, what's up?"

Then she will start cussing you out. Tell her "I am sure sorry you feel that way. Thanks for letting me know. I have to run! Love you, dear."
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 05:05 PM
And be very choosy. If she comes back at any point with a counter proposal, just tell her "I am sorry, but that won't work for me. I know what it will take and it will take nothing less than the conditions on my list."
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 05:08 PM
Now, since pretty much every time we actually talk it gets heated (because she starts accusing and bad-mouthing me),

Yeah, so?

Now's the time you're going to need an SOB transfusion, LFH. You appear to be terrified of 1)her anger; 2)her options; 3) her disapproval; 4) the reality of your situation, which is based on the fact that for how-many years, you were acting on the basis of the first three!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 05:59 PM
So #4 on the list is saying that I am demanding that she can never have any more male friends?

NG,
I think I may be terrified in the sense that I'm afraid that by making her mad or upsetting her I will lose her completely. I have not lost her yet but am afraid that if I keep pushing, I will.

I do see and understand that she has already left, but she has not signed any papers to actually divorce. I guess the bottom line is yes, I am terrified of losing her and anything that causes friction makes me that much more terrified.

I have never been a demanding person. It's just not my personality. I guess that's why I am having such a hard time with some of the things y'all tell me to do. I know they're right but it's very uncomfortable. Y'all can label me a pushover or whatever...I'll take it. I'm going to do this as y'all tell me to, but know that it is one of the most difficult things I have had to do toward her.

She will probably blow up at me and I just hope and pray that she truly is the textbook WW and responds the way that we expect. I stand the potential to completely lose her if this doesn't work. I thought I knew her at one time and the person I knew would respond to these "demands and manipulation techniques" as I know she will see them, with anger and resentment.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 06:06 PM
Do Waywards not view this as basically being treated as a child by having someone be with them with their every move?

I'm not as much questioning the plan because who am I to question anyone here, right? I am trying to get a few answers to be able to handle the way she will react. I know she will see this as manipulative and being treated as a child by not being able to do anything alone.

Do these loosen up after recovery or after things have been rebuilding or are these conditions for life?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 06:10 PM
Sorry to bombard with posts.

Nothing in this declaration addresses the neglect she feels is the main issue. Why?

Please forgive all my nonsense questions. Just trying to have all the info I need in case she brings up those points.
Posted By: estrela Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 06:15 PM
I used to think like you, but after 2 As, and years of lies and deceits, I would not settle for any less.

How much it will take for you to hit bottom?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 06:26 PM
estrela,

I see your point. I've just never been the type of person that MB makes you be to recover a broken marriage. I guess that's why I am where I am.

I hear all the advice and I will do this. I just have to ready myself for the potential outcome...divorce. Yes, the other potential outcome is a wonderful marriage. I guess it's just scary because this speech could usher in the final decision and THAT does scare me.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 07:17 PM
Lf, what you don't understand is that you have lost her. And if you don't start taking some action here, it will be hopeless. The goal is to get her back.

And you are not "demanding" anything. You are telling her your conditions to keep you in the marriage. Having opposite sex freindships is how affairs start. DO you want to go through this again? She has already proven she has pisspoor boundaries around men. You don't need more evidence to know that.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 07:20 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
estrela,

I see your point. I've just never been the type of person that MB makes you be to recover a broken marriage. I guess that's why I am where I am.

I hear all the advice and I will do this. I just have to ready myself for the potential outcome...divorce. Yes, the other potential outcome is a wonderful marriage. I guess it's just scary because this speech could usher in the final decision and THAT does scare me.

You are headed for divorce NOW. You have no chance of recovery and have nothing to lose. You can't afford to be complacent and sit around and hope your marriage will recover by fairy magic. You have to lead your marriage back from the brink.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Sorry to bombard with posts.

Nothing in this declaration addresses the neglect she feels is the main issue. Why?

Please forgive all my nonsense questions. Just trying to have all the info I need in case she brings up those points.

Her neglect of you will be addressed in the MB program. I would let her know that you expect her to meet your needs in a way she has failed to do in the past. But you are giving her that opportunity.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 07:25 PM
I know...I know. I'm gonna do this because I want to try to lead my marriage back if I can. I know y'all are right.

I hope and pray that it works. I am a little doubtful because I know how she is right now and I think she is gonna tell me to kiss her ***. That she will not be told what she can and can't do.

But, like you said...if she doesn't want to commit to the marriage then there is no marriage. No marriage is just hard for me to handle.

I'm gonna start working on my email to her tonight.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 07:27 PM
Mel, I think you misunderstood me about the neglect issue. SHE is making it out that the neglect that I placed on her over the past couple years is the main issue. That's all she talks about when she starts talking about what our problems are.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 07:29 PM
Once I send her the email, should I give her the book SAA to read through? I guess if she decides to want to work on it.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Mel, I think you misunderstood me about the neglect issue. SHE is making it out that the neglect that I placed on her over the past couple years is the main issue. That's all she talks about when she starts talking about what our problems are.

Let her know you will forgive her for her neglect and that you won't neglect her in the future. The reason she talks about the neglect is because she wants to blame you for gr affair.

I fully expect her to tell you to buzz off when you first tell her. She won't believe you are serious at first. But you have nothing to lose because taking her back on any less conditions will lead to divorce.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 07:36 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Once I send her the email, should I give her the book SAA to read through? I guess if she decides to want to work on it.

No. Get her committment first. And if she agrees, you might want to look into counseling with the Harley's or dong the online program.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 07:39 PM
Also,you can't tell her what to do. But you can decide what you will or won't live with. Telling her that you won't tolerate her abuse is not telling what to do. Your wife is a bully and you don't have to live like that.
Posted By: markos Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 07:39 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Mel, I think you misunderstood me about the neglect issue. SHE is making it out that the neglect that I placed on her over the past couple years is the main issue. That's all she talks about when she starts talking about what our problems are.

I think Melody Lane understood just fine.

First of all, Marriage Builders addresses neglect.

(In fact, let me share a secret: Marriage Builders is a program to teach clueless husbands how to not neglect their wives.)

But what Melody Lane is pointing out is that your WW's remarks about neglect are the fogbabble of a fogged out addicted wayward. It is just an excuse. She is the one neglecting you, not the other way around.

Neglect, whichever direction it exists, will be addressed by the Marriage Builders program. You can mention as a selling point that Marriage Builders will build a marriage free from neglect.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 07:41 PM
Do you not yet understand that the only time a WW lies is when she speaks at all?

Of COURSE she'll blame it on you. If not your "neglect", then your "suffocating", or your "lack of ambition", or your "over-dedication to your job" will be what she touts as the "reason". The only "reason" is that her needs for EN satisfaction were not clear enough for her to address with you, and her boundaries around other men were faulty. It's all HER FAULT!

But WWs cannot admit that kind of thing. They must (because modern society has taught them) be RIGHT! From day one, in every form of media and educational initiative, the man is at fault. So, she just follows society's lead.

It is without doubt a huge contributor to the explosion in female infidelity. "Have an itch? If your hubby can't scratch it, do whatever has to be done to get it taken care of! It's hubby's fault, anyway."

And you know who is more damaged by that propaganda than the female targets? Males like YOU! You're sitting there having had something stolen from you, and you're bemoaning the fact that you only had two locks on the door.

I better go before I get "zapped" for abusing another poster...
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 07:48 PM
NG,

I took no offense to your post...just so the "zappers" know.

She actually has blamed me for working too much even though I really didn't. I left the house when she did. I just got to work 30 minutes earlier than normal time. I was/am competing for a promotion, but have NEVER neglected my family for it. It's not worth that.

She also brought up the point the other night that I "did something that I told her I would never do"...take my wedding ring off. I did take it off a couple times when I knew she was coming over just to get a reaction. She is just looking for things to place blame on me for.
Posted By: LostNtime Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/10/12 08:10 PM
LFH, what your doing right now is planting seeds. Are you going to reap that harvest as soon as you plant them?... NO! You are actually going to get the opposite effect from your WW than what you are wanting to get... her anger and blame.

But NOW is not the time of harvest. Those seeds will grow in the back of her mind of what kind of man LFH is. He is strong, has morals and values that will not be comprimised, watches out for me (WW), does not have AO and DJ and is willing to fight even me (WW) to save our marriage. THATS what I (WW) NEED!

Pay no mind to her accusations and fogbabble and don't try to figure out the real reason begind what she says. The real reason is simple...She is selfish and does not care (at the moment) how you or anyone else feels. She wants to feel justified and will say or do anything to help herself feel that way.

Now go plant as many good seeds as you can. Its hard work but harvest time is coming.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 12:45 AM
She called me tonight and apologized for the conversation last night when she was so mean and accusatory to me. She actually sounded somewhat sincere. She said she was sorry she made me so upset and angry.

Mixed signals every day.

Y'all make anything of this?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 12:48 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
She called me tonight and apologized for the conversation last night when she was so mean and accusatory to me. She actually sounded somewhat sincere. She said she was sorry she made me so upset and angry.

Mixed signals every day.

Y'all make anything of this?

Did you send that email to her like Mel suggested?

Yes that waywards act bipolar.

Also they act narcistic and many other disorders.

Waywards are aliens and make no sense at all.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 12:56 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
She called me tonight and apologized for the conversation last night when she was so mean and accusatory to me. She actually sounded somewhat sincere. She said she was sorry she made me so upset and angry.

Mixed signals every day.

Y'all make anything of this?

LF, did you read our posts? What she says is really not interesting. It is no more significant than the mood swings of a falling down drunk. Up one day, down the next.

What about my suggestion above of sending her an email with your plans? Now would be a good time since she is feeling guilty about her last angry outburst.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 01:59 AM
Quote
SHE is making it out that the neglect that I placed on her over the past couple years is the main issue.
But that's a standard line in the Wayward Handbook, looking. Why would you put any weight on this at all? She's a wayward. If she didn't use this line on you she would use another one - any line that puts the blame on you.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 02:02 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Mel, I think you misunderstood me about the neglect issue. SHE is making it out that the neglect that I placed on her over the past couple years is the main issue. That's all she talks about when she starts talking about what our problems are.
I think you're missing Mel's point. Think about it. Have you considered that SHE has neglected YOU? Because she has, my friend. If she had been rightfully treating you as her priority she would never have had time to engage in the selfish actions of an affair.
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 03:31 AM
LFH,

You seem to be in serious denial. Here's the reality: You're on the path to divorce.

Here's another real fact:

She will cheat on you again if you take her back without acceptance of Mel's conditions spelled out in her sample email.

Poor boundaries with men (or women in your case) is a recipe for future failure.

One of the most unappealing things to a woman is a man with no self respect. You have no self respect. Every time she says jump, you ask how high.

It is time to say, "No. I'm not jumping."

Stop playing her game and take control of this situation. It starts with you growing a set and acting like a man. She'll never find you appealing otherwise. "Hope" isn't going to save your marriage.

The second you accept that your marriage is dead will be the second you gain some sort of control over yourself. Taking the attitude that SHE needs to earn YOUR trust and love back will get you further than fear of standing up for yourself.

She'll balk at first with your new sense of self esteem and might even laugh at a statement such as, "Never speak to OM again and I'll consider forgiving you and taking you back. Otherwise, I'm going to go alphabetize my DVD collection." Then walk off, as if you don't give a crap about what she thinks.

Grow some self respect! AKA BALLS!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 01:12 PM
I hear what everyone is saying. I have had no doubts that I am sending the letter/email.

I have never viewed myself as not having any self-respect or not having the strength to stand up for myself. I have never had a problem with either. I have always viewed marriage as a place where you must try everything possible to keep things going and I apparently don't do that the way I should have. I see that now.

I know y'all are right but it has been hard for me to accept that I have to become more "forceful" in marriage to make things work. I have always tried to be fair and work together to solve problem. Although I see now that working together has to go both ways and she has decided to work without me so I have to take the reigns back and guide things back where we are working together.

This has been so hard for me to understand and accept because I have had to change my entire way of thinking about marriage, relationships and myself. I guess there has been some or a lot of denial because of all the thought process and belief changes I have had to come to accept.

One of my big hang-ups with some of the things I have been guided to do is that every person and situation is different in some aspect. It has been tough for me to accept that the same principles apply to ALL situations. I guess what has happened is that I have wanted to believe her more than I have wanted to believe y'all. She's my wife and y'all have been strangers. I have known her for over 12 years and y'all less than 4 months. I am supposed to be able to believe and trust what she is telling me AND more than anything....I'm supposed to be able to deal and handle my own marital problems. I have failed miserably at both of those.

I'm not self-pitying right now. I'm just stating the truth as I see it at this point. More than anything I just want everyone to know why I have had such a hard time executing everything I have been told. I also accept that if my marriage fails it will be partly because I have not trusted y'all/MB enough to execute when told to.

I am drafting my letter to her today and will send it tomorrow after she picks up the kids. I'm choosing to send it then because if I send it today she will come over in the morning when the kids are around and blow up. I'll send it after she has the kids tomorrow and we will not HAVE to cross paths until next weekend. That will give her time to get mad, come back to reality and think about it. I know what you may be thinking...he's afraid to face her. Nope, not at all. I am to the point where I have little fear of anything left in regards to this marriage and or my friendship with her. She has pushed me to that point.

I was wondering if I might be able to post the draft of my letter for y'all to pick apart before I send it?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 01:25 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
One of my big hang-ups with some of the things I have been guided to do is that every person and situation is different in some aspect. It has been tough for me to accept that the same principles apply to ALL situations. I guess what has happened is that I have wanted to believe her more than I have wanted to believe y'all. She's my wife and y'all have been strangers. I have known her for over 12 years and y'all less than 4 months.

I completely understand your disbelief! It makes no sense to believe that strangers on the internet know your wife better than you do! But you can go back and read your threads and see that we have, in fact, known your wife better than you throughout this ordeal. That is because that woman is not your wife.

The wife you know and fell in love with is not there, is she? The woman in her place is a wayward alien. And we know wayward aliens like the back of our hands. They are ALL alike! We don't apply the same principles to all situations, but to most. We apply them where they apply. We know what usually works, so of course, we are going to tell you what we know has worked in the past. There are no guarantees, but we believe this will give you the best chance based on hundreds of other experiences.

Quote
I have always tried to be fair and work together to solve problem. Although I see now that working together has to go both ways and she has decided to work without me so I have to take the reigns back and guide things back where we are working together.

I believe you have tried to appease her throughout your marriage. You were probably raised to do this so it is deeply ingrained. Trying to appease a tyrannical bully does not help marriages; it destroys them. It enables bad behaviors and creates a false sense of entitlement. And worst of all, it erodes your wife's respect for you. When a man allows a woman to mistreat him, she develops contempt for him. When a man sets appropriate boundaries, she learns to respect him.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 01:25 PM
And please do post your letter! We would be glad to help.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 01:36 PM
Thank you for understanding. My beliefs about how to behave and treat women/marriage are deeply rooted. I have very strong beliefs about how I am supposed to treat my wife.

But...you are right on all the points you mentioned.

1. Y'all have known her better than me
2. My real wife is not here right now
3. There are no guarantees in anything
4. Just about everything else.

I have even told myself to trust what y'all tell me because you have been right on just about every aspect of this situation. The proof is in the posts I have made and the answers that have been posted back to me.

Part of the problem as well has been that I am a very logical minded person and have had a hard time understanding the way MB thinks. The problem with that is that I should not be trying to understand it because I am actually not capable of that right now. My logical thought tell me the opposite of what I am told on here most of the time. It's very hard to not trust my own thoughts and turn the control of my marriage over to someone else. That just hasn't been easy for me to do.

I do apologize for that as well as the fact that y'all have had to basically smack me in the back of the head every day.

I will post my letter later today for review.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 01:48 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I do apologize for that as well as the fact that y'all have had to basically smack me in the back of the head every day.

I will post my letter later today for review.

We don't mind giving the smacks as long as you come to your senses and heed the advice. laugh

Looking forward to the letter. I would use Mel's template.
Posted By: 20YearHistory Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 01:53 PM
My FWW and I have both taken accountability for our shortcomings prior to her A. Both sides hold responsibility for creating the environment that lead to her looking outside of the marriage.

We all agree that there is nothing a BH would ever do that would justify her A. It is 100% on her. Period. For all the reasons accurately described in your thread.

However.

However, my FWW would not have fallen back in love with me if I had not eliminated all my LB�s and started filling her EN�s.

The danger I see here is that a BH (yourself?) may be looking at this and putting all the blame on her for everything. Again, 100% her fault that she had the affair.

Until she sees that you have changed what she believes to be the problems in your marriage from your side of the fence, she will not fall back in love with you.

Clearly she is very foggy. You know that well. My FWW was as well. What turned the tide for us is when I took full accountability for my actions and changed ME. I put up strong boundaries which actually increased her respect for me and she knew I was not going to be a doormat.

And, incorporated every aspect MB's.

My point is that yes she was totally in the wrong but we BH�s need to take full accountability for our actions as well. Ever heard the saying that �perception is reality�? Her perceptions are clearly foggy but it is her current REALITY.

Make her fall back in love with you! You did it once, you can do it again.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 02:04 PM
Originally Posted by 20YearHistory
However.

However, my FWW would not have fallen back in love with me if I had not eliminated all my LB�s and started filling her EN�s.

20yrhistory, And I agree with everything you say there, but he is not at that place yet. His wife is still in an affair and is manufacturing grievances to distract from her affair. He is not ignoring the problems in the marriage, but is not allowing himself to be distracted. If the issue becomes her supposed "neglect" instead of how to end her affair and reconcile then they don't EVER get to the point where they can address the deficiencies in the marriage.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 02:11 PM
20Year,

My taking responsibility AND changing my wrongs has already been accomplished and proven to her before she shut me down and left. She knows (or should) beyond a shadow of a doubt that I have acknowledged, accepted and have addressed how and why I neglected her. I also had about a week where I showed her the changes. She was not very receptive at that time but she saw that I was able and willing to do the things that she had and still is complaining about.

She knows that I have made the changes yet she is still complaining about the neglect. I have told her over and over that I can't change the past but I can make the future (hers and mine) be everything that we both want IF she chooses to do so. I have told her that many times throughout this, but she keeps telling me that she doesn't know if she can move past it because she dealt with it for so long that she has "moved on emotionally". Those are her words.

I do want everyone to know that her term "emotional neglect" was is not as bad as it sounds. The basis of it is that she did not receive as much affection as she felt that she needed. I agree that I was not as affectionate as I could have been, but those are not grounds for affairs and divorce in my opinion. Those are issues you sit down and COMMUNICATE about and try to find a resolution to.

With that said, I know that none of my talking or explaining has made any difference because she has been and still is in the fog. But I say all that to say that there is no problems with my accepting my wrongs in this and addressing them. I am more than happy to make these changes because they actually make me a happier person. Now she has to do her part.
Posted By: 20YearHistory Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 02:36 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by 20YearHistory
However.

However, my FWW would not have fallen back in love with me if I had not eliminated all my LB�s and started filling her EN�s.

20yrhistory, And I agree with everything you say there, but he is not at that place yet. His wife is still in an affair and is manufacturing grievances to distract from her affair. He is not ignoring the problems in the marriage, but is not allowing himself to be distracted. If the issue becomes her supposed "neglect" instead of how to end her affair and reconcile then they don't EVER get to the point where they can address the deficiencies in the marriage.

I know exactly what you are saying. Yes, I agree.

However, what helped my W break out of her fog was to do my best (even though it was very difficult at the time) was to focus my efforts on myself AND to �woo her� back into my heart. I basically approached her like I was courting her again. I went back mentally to those days early on in courtship and recreated that environment.

She has shared with me that indeed my behavior did have the desired effect on her. It showed her that I was still the person she fell in love with years ago. In turn, this shed a bright light on the contrast of me and OM. I showed her that I was everything and more that she has always wanted our marriage to be.

I value our current relationship more than I ever had and have truly changed myself into the best person I have ever been in my life. And for that I am very proud of myself.

Was it a challenge? Heck yes! Hard every day. But, I persevered, plowed through the resistance and was determined to win her back through pure resilience.
That is the only point I am trying to make.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 02:39 PM
20year,

Were you and your WW separated during the time you "wooed her"?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 02:46 PM
And...did you ever "slip up" and commit a LB during the "wooing" period?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 02:53 PM
Here's my first draft...


WW,
I�ve been doing a lot of thinking about our marriage and this divorce we are facing. I wanted to let you know where I stand on these issues. Let me begin by letting you know that I am not willing to be or stay in a loveless marriage. I am and would be willing to stay in a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage. Because of that, I�m willing to give you an opportunity to earn my forgiveness and trust if you do certain things. This is what it will take to keep me interested in reconciling this marriage:

1. You ending all contact with the OM for life - send him a no contact letter that is approved by me

2. no more nights apart or going out without each other

3. complete transparency � sharing passwords, schedules, etc

4. no more opposite sex friendships

5. complete honesty about your affair

6. committing to the Marriage Builders program for marriage recovery as outlined in the book Surviving an Affair, which I have a copy of.

I know our marriage was not perfect, but I think we can turn it into a great marriage in which we both can have everything we want and need from each other with this plan at Marriage Builders. I would be willing to try to create that marriage under those conditions. I am not going to drop the divorce right now, but if I see our marriage making some changes, I will consider doing so.

All my love,
BH

Let me know what y'all think.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 02:59 PM
Originally Posted by 20YearHistory
[qu

However, what helped my W break out of her fog was to do my best (even though it was very difficult at the time) was to focus my efforts on myself AND to �woo her� back into my heart. I basically approached her like I was courting her again. I went back mentally to those days early on in courtship and recreated that environment.

And I agree very much, that is what he is doing. That is the carrot part of recovery. But it takes a stick too. He has to focus on setting conditions for reconciliation and killing her affair. It takes both a carrot and a stick. Just the carrot alone or the stick alone is not going to break through the fog.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 03:01 PM
I think your letter looks great.

So when are you sending it?
Posted By: 20YearHistory Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 03:03 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
20year,

Were you and your WW separated during the time you "wooed her"?


Yes, we were separated. I kicked her out of the house on D-Day. We were separated for 10 months.

1 week post d-day she called me asking for another chance with me. I agreed on 2 conditions. First, NC with OM for life. No negotiations on this. Second, to be open and honest with me about everything. These were my only 2 requests at the time.
She enthusiastically agreed to these conditions. For the next 9 months, I was doing everything in MY power to turn the tide and I am very proud of my choices during this time.

We were spending a lot of time together and were getting close. I had my suspicions that contact had not ended but couldn�t prove it. She was saying they were not communicating.
I found out the first of January 2012 that contact had never ended and at that time I told her it was over. We had had a false recovery. She was saying that there was no contact with OM. Lies. They met 2 more times at a public restaurant and continued to have spotty contact during this entire �recovery� period.

Needless to say, when I found out I was furious and told her that is was over and we would be filling for a D.

The saving grace for us was that even though they continued to communicate, my action had the desired effect. She fell back in love with me even though she never thought that would happen and was fighting it the whole time.

So, when I told her that it was over in January and stood firm ground, it pushed her over the edge and realized the marriage is what she wanted. She sent a NC letter to POSOM, committed 100% to the marriage, put EP�s in place and started on our REAL recovery.

Not until the point when she knew I was gone forever, did she fully commit. She was cake eating and I wasn�t going to have any part of that. I have too much self respect for myself. I made a stand.

Even under the best of circumstances when you have a fully remorseful wife is recovery possible. Don�t settle for crumbs or second best. It is still very difficult at times for us and she is the epitome of remorseful and committed. But it didn�t happen overnight.


I wouldn�t still be here with her if I had anything less than 100% commitment to the M and to MB�s.
My point? WOO HER! Step up the plate, have boundaries and follow through. When she starts to respect you again and sees the possibilities things will change. You know too well she is being led by her emotions and not her head.

It is your job to create the emotions in her that you want by wooing her with confidence and love. Give her hope. Give her all your love.

See in her mind, she has real reasons to do what she did. You have to show her that you are the man of her dreams and it would be the biggest mistake of her life to lose you.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 03:03 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Here's my first draft...


WW,
I�ve been doing a lot of thinking about our marriage and this divorce we are facing. I wanted to let you know where I stand on these issues. Let me begin by letting you know that I am not willing to be or stay in a loveless marriage. I am and would be willing to stay in a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage. Because of that, I�m willing to give you an opportunity to earn my forgiveness and trust if you do certain things. This is what it will take to keep me interested in reconciling this marriage:

1. You ending all contact with the OM for life - send him a no contact letter that is approved by me

2. no more nights apart or going out without each other

3. complete transparency � sharing passwords, schedules, etc

4. no more opposite sex friendships

5. complete honesty about your affair

6. committing to the Marriage Builders program for marriage recovery as outlined in the book Surviving an Affair, which I have a copy of.

I know our marriage was not perfect, but I think we can turn it into a great marriage in which we both can have everything we want and need from each other with this plan at Marriage Builders. I would be willing to try to create that marriage under those conditions. I am not going to drop the divorce right now, but if I see our marriage making some changes, I will consider doing so.

All my love,
BH

Let me know what y'all think.

I like it!
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 03:07 PM
The basis of it is that she did not receive as much affection as she felt that she needed.

�I was so lonely�� you were never here�.. you didn�t need me�.. I thought you didn�t love me anymore�.. I needed someone to talk to�..I wanted to tell you�..�

Does any of that sound familiar? I got all of that dumped on me roughly three minutes after confronting my WW with the love-note e-mail from her to POSOM I discovered.

...but those are not grounds for affairs and divorce in my opinion.

You do realize (as I eventually did) that our opinions are not at issue here, right? The average weak mind of modern woman is not burdened with measuring anything about their marriage's content except "what's in it for them."

That's why exposure and Plan A/B can work if done immediately, before the rot of the glorious, unattached "Me" takes hold in their brains. We must make the alternative to coming back to the marriage so painful to them that "what's in it for them" in staying away is ashes and garbage.

I'd like to flatter myself and attribute her return to my good looks, charm, superior sexual skill, and general advantage over POSOM, but I am realistic enough to say:

...there would be no �pleasant� life for her after an affair-occasioned divorce. She would not �get the house� in any settlement, unless a pile of smoldering ashes constituted a �house� to her. She would never be able to return to her teaching job, because even after OM�s retirement, Mrs. OM continued to work there. Her family, with virtually NO history of infidelity would not be joining forces behind her, as obviously my FOO would be behind me. Our friends, all of whom were involved in long-term, stable unions, would not accept her actions, and �see her side of it�. And of course, POSOM, having turned tail and run, weeping for cover, still quivering, until he died, that I might yet inform Mrs. OM of his actions, was not likely to provide her a suitable companion. He wanted an easy piece of co-worker tail, NOT a long-term commitment. WW had NO comfortable alternative-life support system to imagine running to.
Posted By: 20YearHistory Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
And...did you ever "slip up" and commit a LB during the "wooing" period?

Oh yes, I committed LB's but they were not the ones that caused her to origionally lose her love for me. I ended elimited those and they are gone FOREVER. My LB's were a result of the hurt and devistation of the A.

None of us are saints. We all make mistakes. However, you can't walk on eggshells all the time. She needs to know you are going to take any Sh*t from anyone in a respectful way. You have boundaries! Follow though. She will respect you for this.

Posted By: 20YearHistory Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Here's my first draft...


WW,
I�ve been doing a lot of thinking about our marriage and this divorce we are facing. I wanted to let you know where I stand on these issues. Let me begin by letting you know that I am not willing to be or stay in a loveless marriage. I am and would be willing to stay in a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage. Because of that, I�m willing to give you an opportunity to earn my forgiveness and trust if you do certain things. This is what it will take to keep me interested in reconciling this marriage:

1. You ending all contact with the OM for life - send him a no contact letter that is approved by me

2. no more nights apart or going out without each other

3. complete transparency � sharing passwords, schedules, etc

4. no more opposite sex friendships

5. complete honesty about your affair

6. committing to the Marriage Builders program for marriage recovery as outlined in the book Surviving an Affair, which I have a copy of.

I know our marriage was not perfect, but I think we can turn it into a great marriage in which we both can have everything we want and need from each other with this plan at Marriage Builders. I would be willing to try to create that marriage under those conditions. I am not going to drop the divorce right now, but if I see our marriage making some changes, I will consider doing so.

All my love,
BH

Let me know what y'all think.


I would encourage you to address that you take fully understand (if indeed you do) your personal shortcomings in the marriage, you understand WHY she felt the way she did, and you will do everything in your power to eliminate them forever.

See, she needs to know that you are willing to do your part. She doesn�t want to go back to the way things were. Neither of you do. Convince her that she is the most important thing in your life and you are committed to never be the source of her unhappiness. You are committed to meeting her EN�s and eliminating LB�s.

Give her hope!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 03:25 PM
Originally Posted by 20YearHistory
[


I would encourage you to address that you take fully understand (if indeed you do) your personal shortcomings in the marriage, you understand WHY she felt the way she did, and you will do everything in your power to eliminate them forever.

See, she needs to know that you are willing to do your part. She doesn�t want to go back to the way things were. Neither of you do. Convince her that she is the most important thing in your life and you are committed to never be the source of her unhappiness. You are committed to meeting her EN�s and eliminating LB�s.

Give her hope!

20years, the issue right now that he is addressing is not her unmet needs [he has already addressed and changed those] but the conditions for reconciliation. He has gone way too far to the other side and given her the impression that he has NO conditions whatsoever and will be available to appease her forever. The goal right now is to establish in her mind that there will be conditions and he will not be forever meeting her needs with no return. He is introducing her to the concept of just compensation.

I understand where you are coming from, but in his case, more of the STICK is very necessary at this point. I don't want to confuse him even more with a debate about tactics, but think it is very important that you know he needs to lean more toward a STICK now.

He has met her needs so she knows this. He reiterates this in his message:

Quote
I know our marriage was not perfect, but I think we can turn it into a great marriage in which we both can have everything we want and need from each other with this plan at Marriage Builders.
Posted By: 20YearHistory Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 03:32 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by 20YearHistory
[


I would encourage you to address that you take fully understand (if indeed you do) your personal shortcomings in the marriage, you understand WHY she felt the way she did, and you will do everything in your power to eliminate them forever.

See, she needs to know that you are willing to do your part. She doesn�t want to go back to the way things were. Neither of you do. Convince her that she is the most important thing in your life and you are committed to never be the source of her unhappiness. You are committed to meeting her EN�s and eliminating LB�s.

Give her hope!

20years, the issue right now that he is addressing is not her unmet needs [he has already addressed and changed those] but the conditions for reconciliation. He has gone way too far to the other side and given her the impression that he has NO conditions whatsoever and will be available to appease her forever. The goal right now is to establish in her mind that there will be conditions and he will not be forever meeting her needs with no return. He is introducing her to the concept of just compensation.

I understand where you are coming from, but in his case, more of the STICK is very necessary at this point. I don't want to confuse him even more with a debate about tactics, but think it is very important that you know he needs to lean more toward a STICK now.

He has met her needs so she knows this. He reiterates this in his message:

Quote
I know our marriage was not perfect, but I think we can turn it into a great marriage in which we both can have everything we want and need from each other with this plan at Marriage Builders.


ML, I don�t disagree.

I just called my W and discussed this issue with her. She told me that until she had hope and confidence that things would not go back to the way they were, she couldn�t visualize a great marriage.

Is that the case here? Maybe. Maybe not.

My point is that he must show her that he has changed. She doesn�t see that so even though a stick is important, he must also give her hope.

Hope in the form of him showing her in a way that addresses her real fears even if they are from a fogged out WW.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 03:34 PM
Originally Posted by 20YearHistory
[
My point is that he must show her that he has changed. She doesn�t see that so even though a stick is important, he must also give her hope.

I agree. And he has already done that. And continues to do so. So now his goal is to show her the stick by outlining his conditions.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by 20YearHistory
[
Hope in the form of him showing her in a way that addresses her real fears even if they are from a fogged out WW.

This was a very important issue to your wife, however, in most cases those "fears" are manufactured grievances that are contrived to take the focus OFF the affair. Of course the BS indicates his willingness to meet those needs in the future - after the affair - however, the BS has to be able to properly discern between grievances that are contrived and those that are real. In his case, he has taken the stance that these grievances are REAL and has addressed them. At the expense of the stick, I might add. So his goal now is to address the STICK.
Posted By: 20YearHistory Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 03:51 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by 20YearHistory
[
Hope in the form of him showing her in a way that addresses her real fears even if they are from a fogged out WW.

This was a very important issue to your wife, however, in most cases those "fears" are manufactured grievances that are contrived to take the focus OFF the affair. Of course the BS indicates his willingness to meet those needs in the future - after the affair - however, the BS has to be able to properly discern between grievances that are contrived and those that are real. In his case, he has taken the stance that these grievances are REAL and has addressed them. At the expense of the stick, I might add. So his goal now is to address the STICK.


No question there. Completely agree. Without the Stick, my M would have never survived. The Stick is what broke the chokehold for us. Big wake up call.

I too had manufactured grievances at the time, as he does. It is difficult to sometimes discern between manufactured grievances and real grievances. You know, her perception of reality vs. his perception of the reality of the core problems in their marriage.

The point I am trying to make here is, at least in our case, a balance between a stick and also addressing her fears of committing to the M were key factors in our reconciliation.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 03:59 PM
I think your approach was perfect. Manufacturing grievances is a classic tactic of addicts [of all stripes] that is designed to distract from the affair and keep the BS off balance. This is why it is real important to not allow these grievances to become the focus because they are usually based on the fog. Like Steve Harley says, don't pay much attention to what the wayward says because it is a distraction.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 04:13 PM
My WW has done exactly that...made the complaints about her neglect the main focus. Although I dont agree that it was as bad as she makes it out to be, I do agree that there was some. But, this is ALL she talks about when she talks.

No mention of the affair or her neglect of me.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 04:14 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
My WW has done exactly that...made the complaints about her neglect the main focus. Although I dont agree that it was as bad as she makes it out to be, I do agree that there was some. But, this is ALL she talks about when she talks.

No mention of the affair or her neglect of me.
When will you be sending the letter?
Posted By: 20YearHistory Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 04:36 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
My WW has done exactly that...made the complaints about her neglect the main focus. Although I dont agree that it was as bad as she makes it out to be, I do agree that there was some. But, this is ALL she talks about when she talks.

No mention of the affair or her neglect of me.

Trust me when I say to you that if you do get back together, as time goes by and as her love for you grows, this position she is currently taking is going to haunt her for very long time.

When the fog lifts, this may be a large portion of the remorse she feels knowing what she has put you through and the reasons she is giving you now.

You will see a totally different person emerge when the fog lifts! And it will lift one way or another. Together or apart.

Her neglect of you will become very much a reality when she sees what you have done for her in saving her from herself.

Hopefully, this will be even more of a motivator for her to step up to the plate and help you heal!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 04:43 PM
Brain,
I will be sending the letter tomorrow. She is coming to pick up the kids tomorrow morning and I dont want her fresh anger/emotions to come out around the kids when she sees me in the morning.

This will give her all next week to think on it because the way the kid schedule is set up during the week we wont see each other until next weekend.

Now, as I said earlier, I'm not afraid to confront her after I send the letter, I just wanted to be sure the kids werent around.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Brain,
I will be sending the letter tomorrow. She is coming to pick up the kids tomorrow morning and I dont want her fresh anger/emotions to come out around the kids when she sees me in the morning.

This will give her all next week to think on it because the way the kid schedule is set up during the week we wont see each other until next weekend.

Now, as I said earlier, I'm not afraid to confront her after I send the letter, I just wanted to be sure the kids werent around.
Sounds good. smile
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 06:01 PM
I'm gonna go back and re-read most of this thread but I just want to make myself a kind of response/checklist to use after the letter is sent.

1. Send the letter

2. Don't respond to her calls or voicemails for an hour or so after she reads the letter. Then be nice and sweet but simple such as "I am sure sorry you feel that way. Thanks for letting me know. I have to run! Love you, dear"

3. After the letter when we talk, just reiterate my conditions as outlined and do not accept any alternatives

4. Continue to re-enforce that fact that "I think we can have a great marriage. I am willing to give you an opportunity to earn my forgiveness"

5. If she brings up the argument that she's been making all along that my neglect of her is the real issue behind all this then I just say something like "I have acknowledged my part in that and have made changes to not allow it to happen again and I am willing to forgive her for neglecting me" or "the Marriage Builders program will help us make sure this doesn't happen in the future".

What about the actual Plan? Just follow what I have read in SAA?

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
5. If she brings up the argument that she's been making all along that my neglect of her is the real issue behind all this then I just say something like "I have acknowledged my part in that and have made changes to not allow it to happen again and I am willing to forgive her for neglecting me" or "the Marriage Builders program will help us make sure this doesn't happen in the future".

"Yes, you are right about the neglect in our marriage. This program will help us make sure this doesn't happen in the future..."

You have a great plan there, my friend! hurray
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 06:04 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
What about the actual Plan? Just follow what I have read in SAA?

Harley lays it out really welll in this article: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2311122#Post2311122
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 06:11 PM
Thanks Mel.

I'm a little anxious and "at ease" about this all at the same time.

Anxious because this will more than likely tell me the direction of my marriage (repair or divorce).

"At ease" because it will give ME some direction.

Once the letter is sent to the WS, how long does it usually take for them to "decide" on which direction they want? Now I'm not asking for you to say that within 27 hours and 16 minutes she will be have made up her mind. I know there is no standard answer, but after the conditions are given does the WS take days, weeks, months to "come around? I also know it's different in every situation so this may be one of those situations to where the BS just implements until success or failure.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 06:34 PM
Fight the good fight - send the letter and stick to the MB practices and principles thereafter. Remember, she has already "made" her choice; this is giving her one more shot to change her mind (back).

Do not get your hopes unduly raised. WWs come back to marriages about as often as Halley's Comet reappears.

You're doing what you're doing (beyond the slim hope of a return) to lay out to HER, satisfy YOURSELF in the future, and demonstrate to any THIRD-PARTIES (family, etc), that the destruction of your marriage was entirely on her choices and actions.

Recovery from infidelity is not always defined as reconciliation between WS and BS. It can also encompass giving the BS the self-strength to go forward unencumbered by thoughts of "Should I have...."
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 06:44 PM
NG,

"WWs come back to marriages about as often as Halley's Comet reappears"

I hate to say so but that quote is pretty discouraging. It makes it sound like this letter process as well as the rest of the program is pretty much a formality and doesn't have much hope for a positive outcome.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 07:02 PM
Reality is reality, my friend.

The ideal "positive outcome" is for her to see the errors of her ways and re-commit to you and your family. Short of that, a secondary "positive outcome" is the one I referenced, where you, having had her destroy your marriage, move forward with your life free from any sense of shared responsibility for its destruction.

Do NOT underestimate the importance of that freedom, LFH, if that's the way this is to play itself out.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 07:06 PM
I understand both "outcomes" but the idea that they most likely don't come back kinda takes the wind outta my sails.

I was fairly positive about the possible reaction she might have but am starting to seriously doubt that and starting to feel like this process was only meant for my sake. Pretty depressing.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 07:10 PM
We have many stories on here where WWs did come back to the marriage. It ain't over til, etc. smile

Try to stay in empowerment mode, okay?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 07:15 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Once the letter is sent to the WS, how long does it usually take for them to "decide" on which direction they want? Now I'm not asking for you to say that within 27 hours and 16 minutes she will be have made up her mind. I know there is no standard answer, but after the conditions are given does the WS take days, weeks, months to "come around? I also know it's different in every situation so this may be one of those situations to where the BS just implements until success or failure.

It could be never, 6 months or 2 days. What matters is what YOU decide because you are now in charge of your life. She is no longer calling the shots. The drunk driver does not get to drive the car anymore. You are letting her know that you are the driver and if she wants to go with you, she can get in the backseat. But she no longer gets to drive.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 07:15 PM
I'm trying, but I'm starting to second guess...
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 07:25 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I understand both "outcomes" but the idea that they most likely don't come back kinda takes the wind outta my sails.

I was fairly positive about the possible reaction she might have but am starting to seriously doubt that and starting to feel like this process was only meant for my sake. Pretty depressing.

I don't agree that it is most likely she won't come back. In my experience it has been about 50/50 with wayward wives. I feel there is hope here. This is not too far gone, IMO, and believe me I would tell you if I thought that. I would give you 50/50 odds.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 07:26 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I'm trying, but I'm starting to second guess...

Stick to your plan. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Keep your eyes on the path we have laid out for you. THAT is your best hope.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I was fairly positive about the possible reaction she might have but am starting to seriously doubt that and starting to feel like this process was only meant for my sake. Pretty depressing.

I can't even believe you said that!!! twoxfour Let me ASSURE you that I would not be wasting TWO SECONDS on this thread telling you to try and save it if I thought it was over! I have a very busy life and have been in the process of moving during the past 3 weeks. I have to steal time to post to you here and there.

If I felt like this was hopeless, I would be telling you what I told rainy: get a damn divorce, it is over!!! I wouldn't be taking time from my marriage and career to give you FALSE HOPE!!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 07:35 PM
I'm sorry Mel.

this situation is so overwhelmingly emotional for me that I have been on the brink of depression and tears at many points just about every day. It doesn't take much to bring me down from an optimistic high.

I am so much more grateful for you and everyone else than I have shown. I cannot express how thankful I am that everyone DOES take time out to respond to my posts even when I'm being stupid.

I will press on and will hope for the best. That's all I have. I do believe you because I have come to know that if no one else will, you will be brutally honest with me.

I'm actually surprised that the club you've had to use on me is not broken by now.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 07:38 PM
It's just that ANY thoughts that come along about my marriage actually ending in divorce hurl me into a place I don't want to go.

I have to remember that I didn't WANT to go where I'm at and that I can only do what I can control to NOT go where I don't want to go.

Does that make any sense whatsoever? It sounded much better when it was in my head.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 07:45 PM
It's not over until the divorce papers are signed.

Listen to these radio clips of Dr. Harley telling a BH to continue to Plan A and his WW has moved out and is continuing her affair with his once friend.
Radio clip of BH staying in Plan A and expose WW has moved out
Segment #2
Segment #3
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 08:17 PM
LFH ... put it this way. You have already lost your wife. Your letter outlines your boundires for her return if SHE wants to agree to them. If not .. thats HER loss because your a NEW man now and forever and you KNOW what went wrong and how to fix it now.

You need to show her that YOU are the great catch (like you did when you courted her before you married) .. YOU have the back bone .. and YOU have too much respect for your self to put up with her antics and games. Do not give her any of your energy when she comes down on you about the past negative things .. you just state "Yeah .. well .. I am not like that anymore".

Make it CLEAR that you realize what went wrong in your marriage own your part of its demise .. and how it happened and your own contribution and that you will NO LONGER be that guy anymore ... you are a NEW MAN .. you have NEW BOUNDRIES and NEW SELF RESPECT and your happiness does NOT depend on your wife being in your life.(women are meant to be a part of our lives and contribute to the amplification of happiness but not the end all be all of your happiness) If you place too much reliance of your happiness on your wife then she will not respect you and this will drive her away. LEAD BY EXAMPLE.


You dont have time to jump every time she asks you (be pleasant but firm in everything) .. nor do you have time to play her mind games. State your conditions (which you did in the letter) .. tell her you wish to spend the rest of your life with her and your kids as a family and grow together and recover your love you once had and make it even better now that you have a new understanding and some great tools (marriage builders) to make sure that your marriage is fulfilling in the future and that you will be sad that she chooses not to recover but you will get on with life if she chooses not to be a part of yours.

Kill your desperation ... if you project ANY of that at all .. you have to get rid of it. Its weakness and she will use it against you.

Do not let your wifes mood effect yours ... Moods are infectious so make your mood (a positive one) more powerful than hers. Example of infectious moods? Ever notice how when somebody says something, and everybody else laughs, even if you don't think its funny, you often laugh too? Happiness spreads. If you act like you are always having a good time, laughing at jokes, etc. it will instantly put all the people around you into a good mood.

Likewise, if you are always down and depressed (i know .. its hard sometimes to beat off the depression due to your situation), people will want to AVOID being around you (including your wife), because your mood drags theirs down too. This is why i suggested you do things for yourself to keep yourself more positive (working out .. doing things with your kids etc). your wife will sense this and possibly realize hat she is missing out on by not giving you another chance.

Something else you could do is find out what it is she likes about the POSOM and be better at doing those things than he is ...

Keep fighting the good fight! But do not drop your self respect to be a doormat.

MNG
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 08:20 PM
lfh, you have been a real trooper and I very much understand the nightmare you are living. And this may end up in divorce. I think you know that. But it may also go the other way. All you can do is keep your eye on the plan, keep your head down and do your best every day.

Some things you can do to alleviate the depression would be to take antidepressants and start exercising. Doing those things will make you feel much better.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 08:23 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
All you can do is keep your eye on the plan, keep your head down UP and do your best every day.

Sorry ML .. had to fix that ... :P
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 08:32 PM
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
All you can do is keep your eye on the plan, keep your head down UP and do your best every day.

Sorry ML .. had to fix that ... :P

grin

Great post, by the way!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 08:32 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Some things you can do to alleviate the depression would be to take antidepressants and start exercising. Doing those things will make you feel much better.

I strongly recommend this also as well as Dr. Harley. You're doing well my friend.
Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
Since plan B (and plan A, for that matter), is extremely stressful for the betrayed spouse, I usually recommend that he or she ask a physician to prescribe anti-depressant medication to be taken throughout the crisis. This not only greatly reduces the suffering of the betrayed spouse, but it also helps keep a clear head at a time when patience and wise decisions are crucial. Anti-depressant medication does not numb the betrayed spouse to the crisis, it actually helps raise him or her above emotional reactions that would otherwise prevent clear-headed thinking. Why suffer and and make poor choices when anti-depressant medication can help ease your pain and improve your concentration in this time of unprecedented crisis?
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 08:33 PM
ALso .. with your postive attitude you want to cultivate .. use some cockyness ...

NOt sure what others think .. but I would say something like (if a moment arises where the moment feels like it needs some tension relief. .. "Well then hun .. if this doesnt work out between us, you will be missing out on all my awesome MUSCLES!" (as you flex your arm and kiss your own bicept showing off that you have been working out) and give her some bedroom eyes right after (dont hold the look too long) and then walk away without flinching going back to doing whatever it was you had planned for the day.

If I am being too positive for you .. I am sorry .. its friday and wanted to leave the forum for the weekend on a good note of POSITIVE VIBES!

KEEP YOUR CHIN UP! Its her loss if this doesnt work out how you want it.

MNG
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 08:34 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
All you can do is keep your eye on the plan, keep your head down UP and do your best every day.

Sorry ML .. had to fix that ... :P

grin

Great post, by the way!

Great post?? which one?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
LFH ... put it this way. You have already lost your wife. Your letter outlines your boundires for her return if SHE wants to agree to them. If not .. thats HER loss because your a NEW man now and forever and you KNOW what went wrong and how to fix it now.

You need to show her that YOU are the great catch (like you did when you courted her before you married) .. YOU have the back bone .. and YOU have too much respect for your self to put up with her antics and games. Do not give her any of your energy when she comes down on you about the past negative things .. you just state "Yeah .. well .. I am not like that anymore".

Make it CLEAR that you realize what went wrong in your marriage own your part of its demise .. and how it happened and your own contribution and that you will NO LONGER be that guy anymore ... you are a NEW MAN .. you have NEW BOUNDRIES and NEW SELF RESPECT and your happiness does NOT depend on your wife being in your life.(women are meant to be a part of our lives and contribute to the amplification of happiness but not the end all be all of your happiness) If you place too much reliance of your happiness on your wife then she will not respect you and this will drive her away. LEAD BY EXAMPLE.


You dont have time to jump every time she asks you (be pleasant but firm in everything) .. nor do you have time to play her mind games. State your conditions (which you did in the letter) .. tell her you wish to spend the rest of your life with her and your kids as a family and grow together and recover your love you once had and make it even better now that you have a new understanding and some great tools (marriage builders) to make sure that your marriage is fulfilling in the future and that you will be sad that she chooses not to recover but you will get on with life if she chooses not to be a part of yours.

Kill your desperation ... if you project ANY of that at all .. you have to get rid of it. Its weakness and she will use it against you.

Do not let your wifes mood effect yours ... Moods are infectious so make your mood (a positive one) more powerful than hers. Example of infectious moods? Ever notice how when somebody says something, and everybody else laughs, even if you don't think its funny, you often laugh too? Happiness spreads. If you act like you are always having a good time, laughing at jokes, etc. it will instantly put all the people around you into a good mood.

Likewise, if you are always down and depressed (i know .. its hard sometimes to beat off the depression due to your situation), people will want to AVOID being around you (including your wife), because your mood drags theirs down too. This is why i suggested you do things for yourself to keep yourself more positive (working out .. doing things with your kids etc). your wife will sense this and possibly realize hat she is missing out on by not giving you another chance.

Something else you could do is find out what it is she likes about the POSOM and be better at doing those things than he is ...

Keep fighting the good fight! But do not drop your self respect to be a doormat.

MNG

Dis one! laugh
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 08:59 PM
Thanks! Much appreciated! I got plenty more where that came from. I have learned SO much on self respect and being the man my wife needs me to be instead of the emasculated version i used to be for most of my marriage. My wifes a TON happier now that I do not put up with her crap and allow her "down times" to drag me down too .. I keep my home in an upbeat mood now for the most part and make my mood the most powerful of all of us and it seems to be keeping everyone grounded and in a good mood too!

SO I am speaking from personal experience. I used to allow everyone elses mood to effect me...to determine how my day was going to be .. to determine my happiness ... NOT NO MORE! I control everyones mood now (for the most part haha).
Posted By: Scotland Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/11/12 11:08 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
It's just that ANY thoughts that come along about my marriage actually ending in divorce hurl me into a place I don't want to go.

I have to remember that I didn't WANT to go where I'm at and that I can only do what I can control to NOT go where I don't want to go.

Does that make any sense whatsoever? It sounded much better when it was in my head.

LFH, no one said that this was going to be easy, or a quick fix. The MB plans are your BEST chance. Use them. You are lucky to have found them, because people who haven`t found MB and try to recover have a much greater chance that they won`t recover. They limp along in a loveless marriage and are unhappy. So, when you think of the alternatives, MB is the best way to go.

ML won`t steer you wrong.

And MB is partly about you. It allows you to earn your way out, if it should come to that. You will KNOW that you have done EVERYTHING to save your marriage. But, you`re not there yet. So, you take the steps to get you into the best possible position.
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/12/12 02:44 AM
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
LFH ... put it this way. You have already lost your wife. Your letter outlines your boundires for her return if SHE wants to agree to them. If not .. thats HER loss because your a NEW man now and forever and you KNOW what went wrong and how to fix it now.

You need to show her that YOU are the great catch (like you did when you courted her before you married) .. YOU have the back bone .. and YOU have too much respect for your self to put up with her antics and games. Do not give her any of your energy when she comes down on you about the past negative things .. you just state "Yeah .. well .. I am not like that anymore".

Make it CLEAR that you realize what went wrong in your marriage own your part of its demise .. and how it happened and your own contribution and that you will NO LONGER be that guy anymore ... you are a NEW MAN .. you have NEW BOUNDRIES and NEW SELF RESPECT and your happiness does NOT depend on your wife being in your life.(women are meant to be a part of our lives and contribute to the amplification of happiness but not the end all be all of your happiness) If you place too much reliance of your happiness on your wife then she will not respect you and this will drive her away. LEAD BY EXAMPLE.


You dont have time to jump every time she asks you (be pleasant but firm in everything) .. nor do you have time to play her mind games. State your conditions (which you did in the letter) .. tell her you wish to spend the rest of your life with her and your kids as a family and grow together and recover your love you once had and make it even better now that you have a new understanding and some great tools (marriage builders) to make sure that your marriage is fulfilling in the future and that you will be sad that she chooses not to recover but you will get on with life if she chooses not to be a part of yours.

Kill your desperation ... if you project ANY of that at all .. you have to get rid of it. Its weakness and she will use it against you.

Do not let your wifes mood effect yours ... Moods are infectious so make your mood (a positive one) more powerful than hers. Example of infectious moods? Ever notice how when somebody says something, and everybody else laughs, even if you don't think its funny, you often laugh too? Happiness spreads. If you act like you are always having a good time, laughing at jokes, etc. it will instantly put all the people around you into a good mood.

Likewise, if you are always down and depressed (i know .. its hard sometimes to beat off the depression due to your situation), people will want to AVOID being around you (including your wife), because your mood drags theirs down too. This is why i suggested you do things for yourself to keep yourself more positive (working out .. doing things with your kids etc). your wife will sense this and possibly realize hat she is missing out on by not giving you another chance.

Something else you could do is find out what it is she likes about the POSOM and be better at doing those things than he is ...

Keep fighting the good fight! But do not drop your self respect to be a doormat.

MNG

This is a great post.

Listen, I understand your despair. I felt it as well at the same point you're in now. I look back now and am amazed at how much I castrated myself and permitted someone else walk all over me. Never again.

The reality is that life goes on if you divorce. I'm not saying it is easy to recover. Far from it for a loss of that magnitude. But you do go on if you get the right help.

I was crushed. I spent a week in a psych ward from being so overwhelmed by grief.

It hurt for a good while and I later had to fight a grueling and brutal custody fight that literally damaged my heart.

But things got much better after I got shared physical custody of the kids and the fighting settled down with the ex.

Now?

I'm happily remarried to a woman who is light years better for me than my WXW. I wouldn't switch back if my WXW was the last woman on earth. I look back now and am amazed that I could have actually been married to someone like my ex.

What I have now is a marriage with a grown woman who is an equal in every single way. We do everything together. I'm no longer taking care of an overgrown child. I have a woman I literally thank God for every day.

I say this to you because I want you to understand that it isn't the end of the world if you divorce. My WXW leaving me was the best thing she ever did for me.

My kids now have a relationship with my family, I'm happily re-married, and I'm doing great in my professional life.

I'm grateful I've been through what I've been through, even that bad parts. They've made me who I am today.

So hold your head up. Take some pride in yourself and adopt that attitude that YOU deserve better.

Get help if you need it. You can move ahead.

Cry here when you need to. You'll always be welcomed with understanding.

Just know that we won't tolerate seeing you do things which will damage your chances of either getting your WW back because you're following your own plan or you violate the plans you work so hard to implement.

We'll try to knock you back on course when you stray. Just expect a 2x4 now and then.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/12/12 03:08 PM
She came over to get the kids this morning and it was a very pleasant experience. We talked and actually laughed about some things. She stayed over an hour which is unusual. She usually stays only long enough to get the kids and their stuff.

I made a point to be smiley, upbeat and positive. I even made a comment about how pretty she looked today and I threw her a little curve before she left....I reached out and gave her a hug. This is much more important than it sounds because we havent shared a hug in about 2 months or so.

I left things at that. We told each other goodbye and parted ways. I felt like she wanted to say something the whole time she was here but I didnt even go there.

I am sending the letter today. I dont know what effect, if any, the hug might have in the grand scheme of things but I felt like I wanted to do it.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/12/12 08:28 PM
I didn't think about tomorrow being Mother's Day when I decided to send my letter to her tonight. Will that be mean/cruel for her to read it on Mother's Day?

Remember that she told me she filed for divorce on our Anniversary and I don't want to be like that.

Let me know what y'all think if anyone is on today.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/12/12 08:32 PM
lfh, the letter is a positive thing for your marriage and can't be compared to filing for divorce. This is really not a big deal. There is nothing mean about it. It is a very loving letter.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/12/12 08:34 PM
This is a very routine thing that BH's tell their wives every day. The only reason I thought it would be good to send an email instead of saying it to her was because she is so argumentative.

I think you are making this into a much bigger deal than it really is.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/12/12 08:36 PM
Ok. I understand. I just didn't want it to appear to her as though it was rebuttal for her telling me she filed on our anniversary.

I'm sending the letter today. I'm not gonna let myself talk myself out of it.

Insanity is defined as continuing to do the same thing and receiving the same results. I have to get away from my own insanity.

I miss my family so much.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/12/12 08:37 PM
I probably am. I'm sorry.

Again, I'm having a very hard time with this whole situation. I know you know that and I know you and all others have been through the same pain. I just don't seem to be handling it as well as most others.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/12/12 08:39 PM
I can tell you one thing....it's a good thing I'm not a drinker!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/12/12 10:24 PM
I'm sitting here thinking about how powerful the WW fog must be.

Her family gets together for just about every holiday, birthday and any other opportunity they can (which is great) to have a pot-luck style meal. Well they're having one tonight for Mother's Day.

I can't help but wonder if she's thinking or has thought about the fact that if she ends up leaving me for the POSOM, she will NEVER be able to bring him to ANY of those gatherings. Her family all hate him and have already told her that he would NEVER be allowed around them.

Maybe...just maybe...seeing how things are going to one of those gatherings without her husband there might trigger some kind of memory that will make her think about that.
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/12/12 10:31 PM
You are very lucky that your in-laws will not accept or support her in this. Maybe that will help to break the fog, like you say. I hope so.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/12/12 10:44 PM
I know it's Saturday night and everyone is probably out but I had to share some info that I just found out that threw me for a loop.

I found out why my WW divorced this scumbag POSOM that she cheated on me with.

HE CHEATED ON HER A MONTH AFTER THEY WERE MARRIED!!!!

Now I understand her even less than I did!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/12/12 10:53 PM
If anyone IS on tonight,

Does this info change the way I should proceed?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/12/12 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
If anyone IS on tonight,

Does this info change the way I should proceed?

Nope!

And I want to add that you are not taking this worse than others, my friend! This is the worst thing that can happen to a person! We all know your pain and sympathize with you.

Did you consider getting on anti-depressants?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/12/12 11:09 PM
I appreciate the sympathy as well as all the "beatings" that I have received. I have needed both.

I have thought about the meds but haven't decided to do that just yet. For one, I wasn't sure if being diagnosed as being depressed would affect custody if it comes to that.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/13/12 12:48 AM
I'm here, LFH, although you know you're not likely to get any "warm kittens" from here.

The likely best thing that your letter will do is say to WW, if she has any power of self-examination at all, is:

WW, I know you're cheating on me. I'm not going to look past your heinous acts just to maintain a shell of a marital status. Your call, WW. Shape up or I'll end it.

And btw, my friend, it would be much more in YOUR self-interest if you stopped marveling at the WS fog, and more intently peered through the BS fog. You have wasted a month, maybe, getting to a point of insight to which we were giving you visibility as you began. It would be helpful to your situation going forward if you can fully absorb the fact that you and she, (in her current state) are ENEMIES.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/13/12 01:25 AM
NeverGuessed,

I appreciate your honesty and your view on this. You have a very good point in saying the her and I are enemies right now because that's the way our relationship (if you can call it that) behaves. She is definitely NOT the person I have known the past 12 years and she is making ME behave unlike myself in the meantime.

I know I have been VERY reluctant to follow all the instructions given on this forum as I should have. As I told MelodyLane in an earlier post, it has been a little difficult for me to basically turn over the decisions that are to guide my marriage in this situation to strangers on the Internet.

Now, in that same breath, I have to say that I have paid attention to the times that the information on the forum has been correct. The reason I continue to be slightly reluctant is because even though I know y'all know best when it comes to marriage and affairs, I guess I feel like I still have some reluctance. For that I have no justification.

I guess it boils down to the fact that I don't know if I'm ready to admit that this might not be salvageable.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/13/12 01:37 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I guess it boils down to the fact that I don't know if I'm ready to admit that this might not be salvageable.

And you shouldn't be ready admit that, because it is salvagable. Just because your wife is your enemy today, does not mean she will be tomorrow. The things I am telling you to do are with the goal of reconciliation. There is still a chance here.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/13/12 01:39 AM
p.s. but you should send her the message that unless she changes you will end it. There will be nothing to save unless she does. NG is not telling you to dump her, he is just stating the true fact that unless she changes this is hopeless. But you are willing to give her that chance. That is what your letter tells her.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/13/12 01:44 AM
Mel,

I believe that...I really do. I know I get pretty discouraged A LOT, but I usually come back to my senses and look at what's happening. I then tell myself that she can't really be serious about walking away from everything we have built and that she's only doing this because she has been taken over by some addictive alien force.

I am waiting on the day when that force leaves her a returns the woman I know, but am also trying to be ready as I can if the force doesn't leave her and we part ways. That's hard to maintain sometimes though.

I'm getting ready to send the letter. I really hope she doesn't respond to it like I think she will. Although I am trying to keep in mind that I knew how my wife would react and I don't really know how the WW will react. We'll see I guess. I got nothing to lose right now anyway.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/13/12 01:56 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I'm getting ready to send the letter. I really hope she doesn't respond to it like I think she will. Although I am trying to keep in mind that I knew how my wife would react and I don't really know how the WW will react. We'll see I guess. I got nothing to lose right now anyway.

She will be angry that you have the nads to stand up to her! And then she will come back in a couple of days sweet as a kitten with some new respect for you. You will really get her attention with that email! laugh
Posted By: Viper Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/13/12 02:02 AM
lfh, I'm not going to go into one of my well documented man rants right now, but I do want you to ask yourself one thing:

Why did you choose the username you did? You asked for help and your getting some help, from some of the best I might add.

Grow a pair and get your [censored] in gear!

She will respect you for it. Maybe not immediately, but eventually. In her eyes you're nothing but a wuss to her. Show her differently.

Get to work.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/13/12 02:12 AM
TigerWes,

I'm afraid you're probably right. All these years I thought I was being a thoughtful compassionate husband.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/13/12 02:22 AM
I sent the letter via email at 10:22pm.

I'll let y'all know when/if I hear back from her.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/13/12 02:24 AM
Whatever her response - do not answer. Not tonight anyway. Turn off your phone, shut down your e-mail account. Let her stew.
Posted By: Viper Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/13/12 02:24 AM
Thoughtfulness and compassion are fantastic qualities in a man as long as they are coupled with strength and boundaries. You've shown the first two, but the second two...not one damned bit!

And I swear on my father's grave if you use the words I'm afraid again I'm gonna climb through this monitor and [censored] slap you out of your complacency.

Get to work! Quit analyzing and man up!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/13/12 02:27 AM
TigerWes,

I appreciate the offer to B-slap me. I need it quite a bit lately.

That actually made me chuckle out loud.

NeverGuessed,

I had no plans on speaking with her in any form tonight. I will honestly surprised if she doesn't read it and laugh about it. That's the frame of mind she's in right now. I could be wrong.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/13/12 02:32 AM
Ok y'all. I think I'm going to try to get some sleep. Tomorrow may be an interesting day. I will be online sometime after church tomorrow.

Thanks again to everyone for the advice, honesty, 2x4's and B-slaps.

Have a good night everyone.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/13/12 02:34 AM
Night, buddy!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/13/12 12:21 PM
No response or reaction as of yet.

She very likely might find my posts. Will that be an issue of any kind?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/13/12 01:09 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
No response or reaction as of yet.

She very likely might find my posts. Will that be an issue of any kind?

Your posts here?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/13/12 01:14 PM
If you are referring to the response, not to my posts here. To my letter.

If you are referring to her finding my posts here, yes. I didn't know if she found them if it would cause any issues with the plan.

I don't know if she's read the email yet though.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/13/12 02:56 PM
If she finds your thread here, that would not be good. If that happens, I would notify the moderators and ask them for help.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/13/12 05:44 PM
I think she's read the email. No contact yet.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/13/12 05:47 PM
Part of me feels like she's just gonna laugh at the letter and forget about it. If that's the case then she's the one that's throwing away everything...not me.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/13/12 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Part of me feels like she's just gonna laugh at the letter and forget about it. If that's the case then she's the one that's throwing away everything...not me.

I don't expect her to just jump up and say okok, whatever you say!! She will react badly at first, but the seed will be planted. She doesn't know what she wants today so if she "throws it all away" today, she will pick it back up tomorrow. She is about as foggy as a falling down drunk.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/13/12 06:01 PM
p.s. you should practice "golden silence" right now. Let her be the one to make the next move.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/13/12 06:41 PM
That's my plan exactly....golden silence.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/13/12 09:41 PM
Since my own wife has been abducted right now and I can't really communicate with her, I would like to transfer my Happy Mother's Day wish to all the mother's on the forum.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/14/12 12:18 AM
She emailed info about the kids but nothing in regards to the email letter. She also added a "have a good night".

Do waywards ever just get tired of the BS's continuous trying to work on the situation and just throw up their hands and say I'm done because I'm tired of dealing with all this? OR is that part of the point...to kind of wear them down into thinking the affair and leaving their marriage isn't worth it?

Am I supposed to be asking these kinds of questions or am I giving away secrets to the plans that don't need to be written down?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/14/12 12:28 AM
I would send her a nice email and just say: "I meant to say this earlier: Happy Mothers Day! Hope you had a wonderful day. Love, XXX
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/14/12 12:51 AM
Just sent it. I wanted to do that but wasn't sure if it was a good time.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/14/12 01:19 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Just sent it. I wanted to do that but wasn't sure if it was a good time.

Escellent way to stay on her mind. Good job.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/14/12 11:27 AM
Tough morning this morning. Friends at work are asking if the kids and I gave WW a good Mother's Day. Don't know how to respond.

Hurts my heart.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/14/12 11:31 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Tough morning this morning. Friends at work are asking if the kids and I gave WW a good Mother's Day. Don't know how to respond.

Hurts my heart.

Do they know about what's going on?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/14/12 11:35 AM
No.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/14/12 12:42 PM
Update:

WW just called to talk about kids. She was very polite, nice and joking. We laughed about things that happened this weekend that she was telling me about in regards to the kids. Talked for 15 minutes when all pertinent information could have been done in 5 or less. I point that out not because I don't want to talk to her for that long but to show that she seems to want to keep me on the phone or in conversation longer than "just what is necessary".

For what it's worth, she seemed to be in a more upbeat mood than normal.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/14/12 04:11 PM
I have this weird feeling that WW is gonna go to ou house today while I'm at work and get stuff from there.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/14/12 04:41 PM
Good MOrning LFH... hopefully you had a good weekend (all things considered of course) and digested my post from friday and put it into action. I will read your posts and replys since my last post and get caught up.

Keep your chin up ...

MNG


Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/14/12 04:49 PM
I dont know whether to leave work and go home or just let her get her stuff...if thats what shes doing. For all I know, shes going to see the POSOM.
Posted By: LostNtime Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/14/12 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
No.

LFH, I don't know what you do for a living but I would suggest you let your fellow employees(some of them anyways) know whats going on as well as your manager. They probably already know something isn't right and they can be of great support for you. Plus your performance may be suffering and it may be wise to let them know why. Both of my managers had been through very tough marital problems themselves and were very supportive. They actually let me work remote now because of it.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/14/12 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
LFH ... put it this way. You have already lost your wife. Your letter outlines your boundires for her return if SHE wants to agree to them. If not .. thats HER loss because your a NEW man now and forever and you KNOW what went wrong and how to fix it now.

You need to show her that YOU are the great catch (like you did when you courted her before you married) .. YOU have the back bone .. and YOU have too much respect for your self to put up with her antics and games. Do not give her any of your energy when she comes down on you about the past negative things .. you just state "Yeah .. well .. I am not like that anymore".

Make it CLEAR that you realize what went wrong in your marriage own your part of its demise .. and how it happened and your own contribution and that you will NO LONGER be that guy anymore ... you are a NEW MAN .. you have NEW BOUNDRIES and NEW SELF RESPECT and your happiness does NOT depend on your wife being in your life.(women are meant to be a part of our lives and contribute to the amplification of happiness but not the end all be all of your happiness) If you place too much reliance of your happiness on your wife then she will not respect you and this will drive her away. LEAD BY EXAMPLE.


You dont have time to jump every time she asks you (be pleasant but firm in everything) .. nor do you have time to play her mind games. State your conditions (which you did in the letter) .. tell her you wish to spend the rest of your life with her and your kids as a family and grow together and recover your love you once had and make it even better now that you have a new understanding and some great tools (marriage builders) to make sure that your marriage is fulfilling in the future and that you will be sad that she chooses not to recover but you will get on with life if she chooses not to be a part of yours.

Kill your desperation ... if you project ANY of that at all .. you have to get rid of it. Its weakness and she will use it against you.

Do not let your wifes mood effect yours ... Moods are infectious so make your mood (a positive one) more powerful than hers. Example of infectious moods? Ever notice how when somebody says something, and everybody else laughs, even if you don't think its funny, you often laugh too? Happiness spreads. If you act like you are always having a good time, laughing at jokes, etc. it will instantly put all the people around you into a good mood.

Likewise, if you are always down and depressed (i know .. its hard sometimes to beat off the depression due to your situation), people will want to AVOID being around you (including your wife), because your mood drags theirs down too. This is why i suggested you do things for yourself to keep yourself more positive (working out .. doing things with your kids etc). your wife will sense this and possibly realize hat she is missing out on by not giving you another chance.

Something else you could do is find out what it is she likes about the POSOM and be better at doing those things than he is ...

Keep fighting the good fight! But do not drop your self respect to be a doormat.

MNG

quoting myself incase u missed it on friday.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/14/12 06:44 PM
MNG,

I think with everyone's help I am getting to the point of realizing that I need to take back control of MY life. Everyone has been telling me this for a while but I haven't been able to do that because when I married her (the real her) I promised to devote my life and everything I do to and for her. Then the kids came along and I made that promise to them as well.

I have come to realize (again, with everyone's help and beatings) that she doesn't deserve that from me right now. I am slowly taking back control of portions of my life a piece at a time. It just feels so unnatural because I am still love her very much (the real her).

She is still controlling some aspects of me and/or my actions. She is so un-trustworthy right now that I can't even trust that she won't come to the house to get stuff when I'm not here. Now, I do not in any way want to keep her stuff from her at all. I just don't trust her to just get her stuff. I also don't WANT to change the locks as my lawyer suggests.

I'm trying to not do anything in that respect that could set us back, but she's controlling that aspect right now because every time I know she's off work I obsess about it all day. Like today, I actually came home from work because I had a very strong feeling that she was gonna come by today...she hasn't yet.

I don't want to be like this, but she is pushing me to it. She told me she wouldn't come by when I'm not here but I have almost no trust in anything she says right now. I asked her this past weekend when she was over if she wanted to get some of her things that she needed and she refused. I don't get it! If she needed them so badly the other day, why didn't she get them this weekend?

I just had a thought that she probably went to see her lawyer today about this. I guess I'll hear about it from mine soon. That just came to me.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/14/12 06:51 PM
what about changing the bolt only ... this way when she comes over without you knowing you would know she was there because she can not relock the door handle lock from the outside. The door handle would then be unlocked but the bolt would remain locked.

MNG

Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/14/12 06:57 PM
I don't understand. If I change the bolt then she would not have a key to unlock it at all. She would be able to unlock and lock the knob.

Did I miss what you were saying?

The more I think about it the less I think it'll be an issue because I really think that's where she went this afternoon.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/15/12 01:32 PM
I have always been a very patient person with anything that comes along in life....except this.

Get your 2x4s ready.

I know I'm just planting seeds right now but I feel like she reacted to the letter in a way that I kind of expected. I think she read it, laughed and put it aside. I feel like she doesn't care or want this to be fixed right now and she doesn't care what I have to say in regards to doing that. At this point, I think she probably just sees me as an obstruction to her idea of "happiness" and just wants me to finalize the divorce and get out of her way.

I understand that this is a very time-consuming process and I'm trying to be patient. It just seems that I have no patience when it comes to this situation. Especially when I can't see any progress at all. Maybe the progress is just not visible...I don't know.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/15/12 04:34 PM
LFH, you're still laboring under some misapprehensions.

You seem to believe this sundered marriage can be restored by your actions alone. It cannot.

You fail to understand that the knowledge that you have today, that WW is basically entirely disinterested about making any attempt to work on her, is progress. You are now (hopefully) armed with the weapon of "recklessness", as you should be able to realize that nothing, within the MB program, you can do is likely to damage your chances of reconciling. Dude, right now they are DEAD. A Plan A/B cycle might re-invigorate the corpse, but surely cannot harm it.

You confuse "recovering from infidelity" with "reconciling the marriage". It many cases, "recovery" means a strong person facing the dissolution with confidence and satisfaction. ("Halley's comet" was an exaggeration; so was the 50% figure quoted later. I ran a quick survey of the odds in the two years I've been here. The "reconciliation" factor is WELL under 20%.)
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/15/12 04:45 PM
NeverGuessed,

I didn't read your entire story. Did you and your wife recover?
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/15/12 06:01 PM
Yes, we did.

My story is contained in the link below in my epilogue. You need only read the first three posts to learn all there is to know.

And I'll suggest, although it probably isn't politically correct enough for the amalgam of unproductive garbage that passes for "modern society", that the biggest differencer between my story (and mirrormirror's) and most other BH's tales here is the unfettered rage I exhibited.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/15/12 06:07 PM
So I'm just curious as to why you have such negative thoughts and ideas about recovery when you and your wife ended up in the lower 20% of marriages that DO recover.

I'm very happy for you and your wife, but I just don't know if I understand why you seem to be so negative. Do I just read/take your posts wrong?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/15/12 07:05 PM
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
You confuse "recovering from infidelity" with "reconciling the marriage". It many cases, "recovery" means a strong person facing the dissolution with confidence and satisfaction. ("Halley's comet" was an exaggeration; so was the 50% figure quoted later. I ran a quick survey of the odds in the two years I've been here. The "reconciliation" factor is WELL under 20%

I also ran a quick survey and came up with 50%. I have an 11 year perspective, you have about ....what? 18 months? Since we are both guessing, my guess is as good as yours. And mine is much closer to the national statistic of 65% of marriages stay together after an affair. Your assertion that 80+% do not reconcile does not compute with any studies of which I am aware.

I am not sure how you feel he confuses personal recovery with marital reconciliation, but oh well.

The bottom line for lookingfor is that there is always a chance. However, you should live your life as If your marriage is over. And the marriage is over as it is. That doesnt mean there is no hope. And no one would fault you for walking away.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/15/12 07:11 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
So I'm just curious as to why you have such negative thoughts and ideas about recovery when you and your wife ended up in the lower 20% of marriages that DO recover.

I'm very happy for you and your wife, but I just don't know if I understand why you seem to be so negative. Do I just read/take your posts wrong?

I have no idea why his view is so negative either, eapecially on a forum where there are so many recovered marriages. Maybe he wants you to fail, I don't know. I do know you have as much chance as so many others here. The 20% figure makes no sense in view of the fact that 65% of marriages stay together after after affairs. Just as his did.

Another known statistic is that less than 5% of affairs last long enough to make it to marriage, so the odds of recovery are greatly in your favor.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/15/12 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
And I'll suggest, although it probably isn't politically correct enough for the amalgam of unproductive garbage that passes for "modern society", that the biggest differencer between my story (and mirrormirror's) and most other BH's tales here is the unfettered rage I exhibited.

What about all the other recovered marriages where the BH did not beat up the OM? I only know of THREE recovered marriages in 11 years where the BH beat up the OM. All the rest of the recovered marriages did not beat up te OM. So I would disagree with your notion that beating up he OM is the ticket to recovery. You have a better chance of going to JAIL than you do recovering your marriage.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/15/12 09:47 PM
Since we are both guessing, my guess is as good as yours.

Since you admit to "guessing" I'll claim honors by actually having done the math, okay?

The set I selected was BHs posting here, with WWs who did NOT immediately express remorse and desire to repair the marriage. Sounds a lot like LFH's case, does it not? Admittedly I limited my scan to roughly two years (Mar 10 - present). If you have a long list of successes in THAT category, my friend, I'd be fascinated to hear them all.

My REASON for giving LFH the honest truth was to reinforce to him the necessity of forceful and resolute action. (I think on that we are allied in our thinking, yes?) Dithering, doubting, half-measures, fears of WW's reactions - ALL of that contributes to the abysmal success rate.

Those are the facts. I don't rejoice in them. I just try to use them to gird any current BHs for their fight.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 12:21 AM
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
Since we are both guessing, my guess is as good as yours.

Since you admit to "guessing" I'll claim honors by actually having done the math, okay?

Sorry, but those are not the "facts." That is just your completely unscientific extrapolation based on a non-representative sample. That is not the "honest truth" and you should be ashamed for presenting such nonsense as "fact." It's not.

Secondly, in almost EVERY recovered marriage on this forum with a WW, the WW did not "immediately express remorse and a desire to repair the marriage." That is about as common as Sasquatch. Dr Harley often says that wayward wives don't express remorse. [he cites a study on this and his own experience]

I completely agree that his chances of recovery are abysmal if he doesn't take strong action, but that does not mean all marriages with a WW are doomed with a less than 20% recovery rate.

I have no idea why you are telling this man this crap. It just adds tension to an already stressful situation.
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 12:49 AM
I'll stand with Melody here.

The only way to recover your marriage is to take action. Recovery is not guaranteed. Recovery may not happen in terms of your marriage. You, however, can recover on a personal level.

But avoiding conflict won't lead to recovery and neither will playing nice.

I speak from experience.

Granted, I'm glad I didn't recover, but I wish I had been harder up front so as not to have been railroaded and screwed in terms of custody.

That's why I advise so much in terms of legal protection and ensuring that you as a father are there from the start. My experience personally and through this forum is that men who fight up front end up with either 50/50 or primary custody while those that surrender and settle don't.

I don't believe protecting yourself legally is incompatible with MB. Just sometimes conflicts in terms of going to dark Plan B. Plan B is moot once you're divorced. At that point it becomes Plan Minimal Contact if kids are in the picture.

But if you're able to get an IM, then that's great.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 01:00 AM
Rather than bandy words, my friend, and eventually falling to calling each other's positions "crap", as an admission of frustration with the intrusion of pesky reality, I'll repeat my proposal:

"If you have a long list of successes in THAT category, my friend, I'd be fascinated to hear them all."

And I would only be "ashamed" if I chose not to warn LFH what he is up against, for fear of being "chastised" for speaking the truth as I have seen it played out here.

But I will give you this: My expression "express remorse" was ill-chosen. It should have been "experience remorse".

Which is critical, as your fallacious rephrasing of my position to "all marriages with a WW are doomed with a less than 20% recovery rate" totally ignores the important qualifier of the WW's immediate mindset in my statement.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 01:08 AM
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
Rather than bandy words, my friend, and eventually falling to calling each other's positions "crap", as an admission of frustration with the intrusion of pesky reality, I'll repeat my proposal:

"If you have a long list of successes in THAT category, my friend, I'd be fascinated to hear them all."

I don't have to cite a "long list of successes" in order to refute an unproven claim. It is up to YOU to prove your claim, which you can't do. You might want to consider the fact that reading threads on the forum does not constitute a representative sample of BH's here, because the ones who can't seem to save their marriages stay on here much longer to receive help. The ones who do save their marriages, usually stop posting because they don't need help anymore.

Instead of trying to discourage this man with completely manufactured claims, why not try to help him save his marriage? He came here to get help saving his marriage, not to hear that it can't be done. How can you help him?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 01:16 AM
Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
Which is critical, as your fallacious rephrasing of my position to "all marriages with a WW are doomed with a less than 20% recovery rate" totally ignores the important qualifier of the WW's immediate mindset in my statement.

Anyone who listens to Dr Harley and is familiar with the typical WW [in recovered marriages] knows that your "qualifier" is nonsense. Your "qualifier"

Originally Posted by Neverguessed
The set I selected was BHs posting here, with WWs who did NOT immediately express remorse and desire to repair the marriage.

is not a qualifier at all, but the standard WW reaction. They don't show remorse or a desire to repair the marriage. It does not predict the rate of success at all. Harley talks about it very often on the radio. Here is one recent radio show where he said this very thing to Rocketqueen:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3820
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3821
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 01:18 AM
Mel,

You mentioned taking "strong actions". I'm gonna look back at this thread but is there a list of some sort somewhere I can see of those actions?

I sent the letter but have not heard nor seen any real response. This is not uncommon from what I'm gathering. Are there other strong actions that I need to be practicing? Are those the actions in the book SAA?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 01:23 AM
LF, strong actions would be things like exposure, confronting the OM, filing for divorce, protecting your finances, etc. Has your wife been served yet? Can you refresh my memory on that?

I believe you have done most of those things.

Have you confronted the OM?
Posted By: Ariel Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 01:24 AM
No more arguing on this thread. Please help this poster with Marriage Builders advice or refrain from posting.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 01:24 AM
I am not at all concerned that your wife has not reacted to your letter. Her reaction is not that important. The important thing was for you to tell her your conditions. And yes, she may laugh or get angry or ignore it. NOW. But you will have planted the seed and as her affair dies, she will pull your list out again.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 01:28 AM
She has not been served yet. My lawyer and I acknowledged her filing but we haven't completed mine yet. We have until early June.

I called the OM early on to tell him what would happen legally if he didn't cease contact. He understood and at that time headed for the hills. He told me and her sister that he didn't want a relationship and wouldn't be waiting on her if we ended in divorce.

Now, I really can't say if he's back in the picture physically or if he's just stayed in the picture with her emotionally. For all I know she's hooked on the idea of being single...or at least without me.

I asked the lawyer about sending the OM a letter or something and they basically said there was nothing they could do legally except subpoena him and all his information. To do that, we have to call a hearing...I think. All that legal stuff gets confusing to me. My lawyer also told me to definitely NOT contact the OM anymore. I REALLY want to just to remind him of what he should be prepared for legally.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 01:30 AM
I thought you might say that about her reaction. Y'all told me that before. That's just my impatience getting the best of me again. Sorry.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 01:37 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Now, I really can't say if he's back in the picture physically or if he's just stayed in the picture with her emotionally. For all I know she's hooked on the idea of being single...or at least without me.

Being single is not an addiction, though. She is addicted to the OM. Sometimes people can be addicted to serial cheating but there is no indication of that here. My best guess is that the affair is in full swing.


Quote
I asked the lawyer about sending the OM a letter or something and they basically said there was nothing they could do legally except subpoena him and all his information. To do that, we have to call a hearing...I think. All that legal stuff gets confusing to me. My lawyer also told me to definitely NOT contact the OM anymore. I REALLY want to just to remind him of what he should be prepared for legally.

That would be PERFECT! You should have him subpoena the OM and force the OM to turn over all his records. Are you filing on grounds of adultery? And will your wife be served soon?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 01:44 AM
So if I subpoena the OM we have to call a hearing. I'm not sure what calling a hearing entails or what it accomplishes in regards to the divorce process. I don't want to "rush" things to a point where we can't turn back, but I REALLY want to take some sort of action to scare him completely out of the picture.

I am filing on the grounds of adultery. I told her this quite a while back if it got to this point. So she is aware of the fact that my counter file will be on those grounds.

I'm working on the paperwork now. I didn't know if I should take the entire time that I have to legally counter file (30 days from the day I got her paperwork) so she would have time to think about things.

I'll call my lawyer tomorrow morning and find out what has to be done to subpoena the OM. If she can subpoena the OM without calling an actual hearing, that would be great! I'm just unsure of what calling a hearing will have to accomplish in legal terms. I know what WE want to accomplish. Do you know anything about the hearing?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 01:46 AM
I was very disappointed when the lawyer told me that they couldn't send the OM a letter that basically says he needs to cease contact or legal action will be taken.

I was going to contact him again to reiterate my legal points but I was told not to do that anymore. I was very disappointed about that too.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 01:56 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
So if I subpoena the OM we have to call a hearing. I'm not sure what calling a hearing entails or what it accomplishes in regards to the divorce process. I don't want to "rush" things to a point where we can't turn back, but I REALLY want to take some sort of action to scare him completely out of the picture.

I find it very frustrating that I have to explain to you why it would help things to call the OM into a hearing. Can you guesss why?

And yes you do need to RUSH. You need to serve your wife and have the OM subpoenaed so they will understand that you are not going to roll over and play dead. The whole point of this exercise was to bring conflict into the affair. And that opportunity is being completely forfeited. I am not sure why.

It would be a good idea to serve your wife on grounds of adultery, have a hearing with the OM, thereby causing enormous conflict in the affair and then ........... backing off. You will have probably run off the OM, given your wife a wake up call and secured legal protection.

So....why in the world are you waiting?

Quote
I am filing on the grounds of adultery. I told her this quite a while back if it got to this point. So she is aware of the fact that my counter file will be on those grounds.

All completely meaningless unless it is REALITY. Why in the world would she take you seriously if you don't do that?

Quote
I'm working on the paperwork now. I didn't know if I should take the entire time that I have to legally counter file (30 days from the day I got her paperwork) so she would have time to think about things.

There is nothing for her to think about if you don't do anything. Just talking about it is not the same as doing it.

Quote
I'll call my lawyer tomorrow morning and find out what has to be done to subpoena the OM. If she can subpoena the OM without calling an actual hearing, that would be great! I'm just unsure of what calling a hearing will have to accomplish in legal terms. I know what WE want to accomplish. Do you know anything about the hearing?

A hearing would be wonderful! The OM can be sworn in on the stand to give sworn testimony about his affair. While you watch!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 01:57 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I was very disappointed when the lawyer told me that they couldn't send the OM a letter that basically says he needs to cease contact or legal action will be taken.

I was going to contact him again to reiterate my legal points but I was told not to do that anymore. I was very disappointed about that too.

Again, talk is cheap. He needs to see ACTION. Threats are a waste of time with cheaters. It is the equivelence of giving your battle plans to the enemy so they can kick your [censored] more effectively.

It is better to just move in for the kill without warning.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 02:01 AM

Quote
I am filing on the grounds of adultery. I told her this quite a while back if it got to this point. So she is aware of the fact that my counter file will be on those grounds.

Empty threat.

Quote
I was going to contact him again to reiterate my legal points....

Empty threat....

Threats do not work with a wayward. As you have learned. Your threats are not working. And will not work. Threats do not cause conflict because they are hot air.

Filing on grounds of adultery and hauling that RAT into court for a hearing is what will cause conflict.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 02:06 AM
No, no, no Mel. You misunderstood my first quote above. I know what subpoenaing him will accomplish. I want that!

My concern/worry/fear is because I don't know this process. I don't want to do something like call the hearing or whatever and back myself into a corner where I lose the option of stopping the process. Does that make sense?

I totally understand that something needs to be done to prove I mean what I'm saying (which I whole-heartedly do mean it). I thought by her knowing I have talked to my lawyer, answered (but not agreed to) her filing and her knowing that I and my lawyer were working on my counter filing needed to "sit" with her for a short time while I work on my paperwork. I didn't realize that I needed to rush my part.

Bottom line, I guess because I don't know this process I didn't know where the "point of no return" comes in. I just didn't want to push myself there and not be able to say "I'm not signing that".

Make any more sense?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 02:07 AM
I understand your meaning. I'm with you. I'll call my lawyer tomorrow and find out what we need to do to subpoena the POSOM.

I would LOVE to do that! Can't wait to see both their faces.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 02:10 AM
Don't be frustrated with me. I don't have to be beaten as hard as I have been to get me on board. My "reluctance", if you want to call it that, now is that I don't know this legal process.

I just don't want to ask my lawyer to begin or do something that might force me to follow through with an actual divorce when all I meant to do at the time was take a small step.

All is good...I'm with you.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 02:14 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I totally understand that something needs to be done to prove I mean what I'm saying (which I whole-heartedly do mean it). I thought by her knowing I have talked to my lawyer, answered (but not agreed to) her filing and her knowing that I and my lawyer were working on my counter filing needed to "sit" with her for a short time while I work on my paperwork. I didn't realize that I needed to rush my part.

Do the tough stuff NOW and then you sit back. Otherwise it is an empty threat. She needs to see papers suing her on grounds of adultery and OM needs to be dragged into court for a hearing. THEN you drag things out........

There is not a point of no return.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 02:15 AM
I had thought of adding abandonment on there. Is that necessary, on your opnion?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 02:17 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I understand your meaning. I'm with you. I'll call my lawyer tomorrow and find out what we need to do to subpoena the POSOM.

I would LOVE to do that! Can't wait to see both their faces.

You got it!! hurray Tell your attorney to move forward and after your wife and the OM are served, then start dragging things out. Remember, she works for YOU and needs to work to suit your strategy.

It takes a long time to get divorced and you can drag it out, but don't allow yourself to be fearful of divorce. That fear has a way of dictating your actions for no good reason. Even if you did get divorced, you could still REMARRY if she made some dramatic changes and met your conditions. And that would not be a horrible thing.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 02:19 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I had thought of adding abandonment on there. Is that necessary, on your opnion?

That would be wonderful!! Anything you use to pile on would be great. She HAS abandoned you and your children. She needs to see what life is going to be like if this goes to divorce. Don't hold back on anything when it comes to legal action. use a BIG STICK LEGALLY and then use the carrot personally. Let the lawyers use the stick instead of you as much as you can.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 02:20 AM
So don't actually get them to court or a hearing? Just get them subpoenaed?

Sorry for the stupid questions. I just want to be sure I stay on that "very narrow path" as best I can.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 02:29 AM
Mel,

Post back whenever you can. I need to get to bed so I can get up early in the morning to get the babies ready for their last day at school this school year. A little sad about that.

Have a great night and I hope the move is going well.

I'll be back on tomorrow and plan to contact attorney tomorrow as well.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 02:37 AM
Night, friend! smile
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 02:39 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
So don't actually get them to court or a hearing? Just get them subpoenaed?
\
YES, actually get a hearing. You need to drag the OM into court. That is the goal. Get them into court. And after you have done that, then drag things out.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 02:39 AM
And you want your lawyer to drag that RAT over the coals on the stand.
Posted By: princessmeggy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 02:52 AM
If you want to subpoena the OM, that would be either to appear at a hearing, trial, or a deposition. In my opinion, if he thinks he's going to have to appear at a deposition, that would be your greatest weapon, at first. He will have to give sworn testimony under oath and your attorney will get to ask him pretty much whatever you need to prove your case. It's also transcribed into a written record and can be used at trial to impeach him OR your WW.

If your WW filed first, she controls the process. By you counter filing, you get back some of that control. It won't be the slam dunk divorce she's expecting. She'll get her divorce (unless she wakes up first) but it will cost her. If you subpoena OM to testify at deposition and/or trial, it will throw a grenade into the affair. All of this will delay the divorce and it could get costly. However, the fact that she knows you are wiling to go all in on the divorce will send her the message that you won't just walk away. While you're taking all the legal steps (or your attorney is) you will be Plan A'ing her at the same time. Carrot-Stick.

When she wants to discuss the divorce, you tell her you won't and to have her lawyer contact your lawyer and then, "How bout them Rangers this year?"

Quit threatening and DO.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 12:48 PM
I emailed lawyer just now to find out what we need to do next.

I need a little clarification on Plan A. Since we are separated I don't have the opportunity to show her any affection such as holding her hand, touching her arm...things like that. Most of the contact is text/email and some phone calls.

So for the Plan A and "wooing" I'm not sure what is not going too far in this situation. When I email/text her are things like calling her pet names or saying "good morning beautiful" within bounds? I feel so stupid asking these questions because I'm a grown man. I KNOW how to "woo" a woman but everything is so critical in this situation I thought I would submit myself to ridicule and ask anyway.

I am trying my best to stay on the "narrow path" as Dr. Harley calls it. I know it has taken me too long to finally commit to that and it may be too late in the game to do so, but I'm gonna try anyway. So any advice anyone has is welcomed.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 12:52 PM
I also wanted to throw this out there this morning.

The positive and optimistic side of me got to thinking about how things have been since I sent her the letter. She has actually stopped contacting me (which may not be positive or optimistic) like she was before. She pretty much only contacts me about the kids, but when she does contact me there has been laughing and/or talking about things in a pretty light-hearted manner.

So that got me to wondering if maybe she has gone and purchased the book SAA and has been reading it to see what "the program" I alluded to entails. I don't know and to be honest, I do't think she has. But, she has been SO unpredictable in her current state of mind that I don't know what she will do anymore.

Just thought I would throw that out there.
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 02:18 PM
One thing to keep in mind in doing all of this is that it is very expensive. A deposition will cost you around $700 at a minimum.

Do not contact OM. Let your lawyer do the contacting. If you do the contacting then they can turn things around on you and say you're threatening him. It will be your word against his and judges won't want to take thehe chance you're going to put a bullet through his head.

Which brings me to my next point: The most common and effective tactic available to a woman in this process is the false accusation of either abuse, violence, sexual abuse of either her or the kids, or all of the above.

Expect some degree of it once this all begins and keep a recorder on you at all times to protect yourself. The most common mistake men make on this board is to say, "Well, SHE wouldn't do that to me."

Expect it. If it doesn't happen, great. But your goal is to minimize your contact.

Every single email and call to your lawyer gets charged. You'll spend a lot of money for being emotional. We've been through the process and can save you some funds with your questions or help you prepare to maximize your time with your L.
Posted By: kerala Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 03:43 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
So don't actually get them to court or a hearing? Just get them subpoenaed?

Sorry for the stupid questions. I just want to be sure I stay on that "very narrow path" as best I can.

You can stop the process anytime. There is no point of no return in this kind of proceeding.

Of course, you can't control what your wife does, but don't worry about the other stuff. It's just family law. The system doesn't care, ultimately, what you decide.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 05:22 PM
I'm still on track.

But...it's so hard to think about doing this to her when I talk to her and she's nice and friendly on the phone. She called earlier and we were laughing again about a couple things. When she's like that it makes me ache to think about how I'm about to lay this legal stuff on her.

I know...I'm so hooked on the woman that USED to be and this ain't that woman. It still makes it hard to think of hurting her even though she has pretty much devastated my world.

Like I said though...I'm good and I'm still on track.

I haven't made up my mind yet but right before I tell my lawyer to pull the trigger, I've contemplated emailing or calling WW to ask her one last time if she wants to drop the legal paperwork and try to work on this before we get the lawyers involved that deep.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 05:38 PM
It might seem simplistic, LFH, but it might help to instill into your consciousness that the woman you once loved is DEAD. Worse, she's dead, but animated like a vampire, sucking you dry of anything good - love, a decent future, finances, family-life!

Get the stake, get the mallet, and do what must be done!

I've contemplated emailing or calling WW to ask her one last time if she wants to drop the legal paperwork and try to work on this

...in effect saying, "Remember that letter I sent with my requirements for trying to reconcile? Just kidding!"
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 09:17 PM
Just curious if anyone has ever described or thought wayward behavior is like someone that is bipolar?
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 10:04 PM
...ever described or thought wayward behavior is like someone that is bipolar...

Ouch! Why would you want to insult those burdened with BPD?

They do share some characteristics, my friend, in the total fixation on the subject's immediate needs and impulses to the exclusion of rational thought. Where the difference resides is in the fact that the BPD sufferer does not "see" his actions as exclusionary; the Wayward just doesn't give a [censored]!
Posted By: karmasrose Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 10:13 PM
There is also another difference...people with BPD often realize there is a problem, and often work to mend it.

As NG put it, waywards either don't know there's a problem, or they don't give a crap.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/16/12 11:49 PM
So there is "medication" for both.

Prescriptions for the BPD sufferers and carrots and sticks for the waywards?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/17/12 02:18 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I emailed lawyer just now to find out what we need to do next.

I need a little clarification on Plan A. Since we are separated I don't have the opportunity to show her any affection such as holding her hand, touching her arm...things like that. Most of the contact is text/email and some phone calls.

So for the Plan A and "wooing" I'm not sure what is not going too far in this situation. When I email/text her are things like calling her pet names or saying "good morning beautiful" within bounds? I feel so stupid asking these questions because I'm a grown man. I KNOW how to "woo" a woman but everything is so critical in this situation I thought I would submit myself to ridicule and ask anyway.

I am trying my best to stay on the "narrow path" as Dr. Harley calls it. I know it has taken me too long to finally commit to that and it may be too late in the game to do so, but I'm gonna try anyway. So any advice anyone has is welcomed.

I'm quoting myself from earlier because I havent gotten much feedback on this topic. I'm having some difficulty keeping the wooing separate from looking desperate. Just looking for opinions. Thanks.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/18/12 02:11 PM
She is so far checked out it's crazy.

She's already changing her mailing address.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/18/12 02:34 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
[
I'm quoting myself from earlier because I havent gotten much feedback on this topic. I'm having some difficulty keeping the wooing separate from looking desperate. Just looking for opinions. Thanks.

lfh, I agree you don't want to look desperate so I wouldn't be phony and I wouldn't lay it on thick. Just be as pleasant as possible when she contacts you.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/18/12 03:54 PM
I guess this is normal for a wayward, but she sure does seem to be in a hurry to get this divorce over with.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/18/12 05:22 PM
As I mentioned earlier .. you NEED to kill your desperation. NOTHING will force your wife to come back .. so you HAVE to accept that fact. As of RIGHT NOW your wife is GONE. HOWEVER .. you DO need to continue to work on YOU .. for YOU and THAT may bring her back to her senses.. along with the advice that ML and the others provide you.

Examples of desperation?

-always giving your wife attention while she is wayward.
-calling all the time to see how shes doing
-taking every opportunity to talk to her
-always available.
-NEVER willing to walk away (NEVER willing to disagree, ALWAYS supplicating).
-etc.

If your doing any of the above .. STOP IT. You will not win your wife with desperation. YOU MUST show SELF RESPECT .. as of right now your wife has NO respect for you and you seem to display a lack of self respect. You encourage her disrespect because you lack SELF RESPECT.

Let me lay out the mind set you should have as a MAN.

There is a KEY to removing your desperation forever. There is no simple 'trick' mind you, that will kill the desperation. It will not be in how you dress or how you talk to your wife. No, the KEY is in how you THINK.

This KEY to killing desperation is to THINK and BELIEVE that you are The Great Catch .. The Prince Charming.

Desperate guys do not do this. They see the woman as the prize rather then themselves. They see that the woman must be 'wooed' rather then them. They will, thus, supplicate and become a 'nice guy'. (i know my username is not doing me any justice at the moment lol)


NOw that your wife is gone and is dead set on not making things work (as you say) ... your too busy for her. Prepare for plan B and plan D possibly. You can always stop the proceedings if it boils out in your favor later. Prince Charming wouldn't accept ANY disrespect from any woman and NEITHER SHOULD YOU.

Now, I know what you're thinking, "I can't act like a Prince Charming or The Great Catch because I am in need of my wife and feel lost with out her and my family unit". Now that may be true but STOP emitting it! This is reversing CAUSE and EFFECT. ASSUME you are the Great Catch, THINK that you are, and as you think you shall become. It becomes a self-fullfilling prophecy. Get some new hobbies (working out .. spending time with the kids etc) and treat them as if they have more value to you than the value you place on your wife FOR RIGHT NOW. When you think you are the Great Catch, you will act like it.

Women love certain traits in guys. By THINKING you are The Great Catch allows you to emit these traits NATURALLY and without any effort.

Examples ..

-Good looks

Does Prince Charming wear raggedy T-shirts? Does the Great Catch walk with his head down? NO! You will wear nice clothes and walk with pride BECAUSE you are proud of yourself. After all, you ARE one of the best. So treat yourself accordingly.

-Humor

Women love humor, I am betting your wife does too. Prince Charming and the Great Catch are humorus because they know that they, themselves, are fun. They don't worry, "My goodness, my wife is totally hot! How can I attract her!?"

ASSUME she will be attracted and have fun in the meantime WITHOUT EXPECTATIONS. When you think you are the Great Catch, this should come more naturally because you have nothing to fear.

-Dominance

You are THE MAN. You must be IN CHARGE, since you currently dont have to POJA with your wife dont worry about your wifes needs FOR NOW, after all .. shes not worrying about yours or how you feel. Desperate guys will try to be 'nice' in every which way to win the girl (and fail, of course as you are experiencing).

When you THINK you are the goods, you realize that it is ridiculous to be in a relationship walking on eggshells all the time. YOU set the rules using MB .. etc, STOP LETTING YOUR WIFE WALK ON YOU. After all, YOU are the prize to be sought and your wife LEFT YOU. HER LOSS! SHOW HER WHAT SHE WILL BE MISSING OUT ON IF SHE DOESNT COME BACK.

Women like to be in the presence of a MAN, not a boy, not a chump, and certainly not a 'desperate nice guy'. ( I should really change my user name haha)

Dominance is also being sure of yourself. Do not speak in a soft tone. Speak STRONGLY and behave STRONGLY. After all, do you think Prince Charming worries about making mistakes? No, so neither should you.

I know, I know. I can hear you saying, "But I must worry about mistakes or else I'll have another 'learning experience' on my hands"

This is a GOOD THING. Let us say that, in a normal conversation, you came across a word you did not know how to pronounce. Most people will utter the word softly for fear of criticism. This is stupid. Say the word LOUD! Let me repeat, say the word LOUD! If you are wrong, you will be corrected. Clearing up mistakes is ALWAYS a good thing and should NEVER be feared.

-Ambition

When you think yourself as The Great Catch, you will feel good about life, you will cease to fear success and demand Life show all that it has. Aim for the moon. If you miss, at least you'll be among the stars.

So in the end, too often men think they need a girlfriend or wife to have their life 'complete'.YES, they are a great addition and help amplify happiness BUT they should NOT be the ONLY reason for your life. The consequence? These men will emit signs of desperation.

Success is achieved first through the mind, then through the world, never the other way around.

Sorry this is long .. but I want to see you in higher spirits and stop being so down on yourself. Hopefully these words of wisdom will help lift you up and give you the strength to fight the good fight with the tools you have here at MB. To be honest its only the past few months that I have really began to use this for myself .. and its TOTALLY TRUE.

Remember .... AS YOU THINK, YOU SHALL BECOME. Get in the mind set above while using the MB tools to your advantage and your wife will see a NEW YOU emerge and may want back what she is missing out on. Continue to be nice to her when the moment is right .. but be FIRM and respect yourself FIRST. DO NOT put up with her disrespect.

MNG
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/18/12 06:08 PM
Great post, MNG.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/18/12 07:29 PM
Originally Posted by helpthelostdads
Great post, MNG.

Thanks... It should almost be its own thread ... many BH's probably need it. What do you think?
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/18/12 08:25 PM
I agree. Frankly, nobody, male or female, wants a wishy washy squishy squashy pushover of a mate. People respond to someone who HAS self respect WITH respect.

One of my greatest mistakes in M, I think. Meeting many needs yes, but letting myself go from a sassy spitfire to a blithering idiot. This, I realize now, was not in the least attractive and did not help my cause AT ALL.

I also think it good to remind people that meeting someone's EN's is a WIN/WIN. Example PA: be more physical fit, take better care of your health and appearance, feel better about yourself. WIN/WIN. It is like fixing all the things about yourself that are unattractive, it can only help to make YOU feel better too, even if your M doesn't work out.

Sorry for the H/J looking!

MNG you should start this in a thread.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/19/12 04:06 PM
Apparently I am completely and absolutely incapable of Plan A'ing.

She emails and starts talking about splitting up the finances. Then, this morning she calls about the same thing and is talking like it's just another normal conversation.

Well, I go into telling her that the reasons she is giving for walking away from everything are a load of crap. I tell her that she knows good and well that's not the reason and that she will realize it but when she does, I WILL NOT be there waiting for her. I told her that I was fine before she came along and I will be fine after she's gone.

She tries to go into her same speech that "we both made mistakes and she has accepted her mistakes and if I don't want to admit my part in bringing this marriage to the point it's at then that's my choice."

I told her that she can continue to tell herself whatever she wants that will make herself feel better, but I know the truth and I know she does too. I think she STILL thinks that this is going to be an easy and pleasant process that will come out in her favor.....INCREDULOUS!!!!

I think I may actually be getting to the point where I'm not sure I WANT this saved anymore....right now anyway.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/19/12 04:10 PM
I also reminded her of the FACT that if this goes all the way, I WILL NOT in any form or fashion be her friend/pal/buddy and that she needs to get that fantasy out of her head because it won't happen....period!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/19/12 04:12 PM
lfh, I would avoid those type of conversations and instead just say you will leave that all up to the lawyers. BUT...your lawyer has to have her served. Has he done that?

If you can get him to serve her, then you can brush aside those discussions and focus on being pleasant. See what I mean?

And don't worry about flubbing up on Plan A! Just regroup and be better prepared in the future. I know how hard it is not get dragged into a debate!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/19/12 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I also reminded her of the FACT that if this goes all the way, I WILL NOT in any form or fashion be her friend/pal/buddy and that she needs to get that fantasy out of her head because it won't happen....period!

Now that was a PERFECT thing to say. What was her response?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/19/12 04:23 PM
I know ML. I'm sorry. I'm really trying but I think I'm getting to the "just being mad at her" stage.

I'll put all my efforts into avoiding those conversations at all costs. It's very tough because she seems to not be bothers by any of this...not even the thought of missing 50% of her babies life for the next 16 years!!! Can't believe any person much less a MOTHER could be ok with that.

In regards to how she responded to my "no friendship" after this is over statement: she just got kind of quiet and didn't really have anything else to say after that. I ended the conversation and told her I would talk to her later and said goodbye.

She has has not been served yet. I met with my lawyer Friday and we are working on getting that done for her and the POSOM.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/19/12 04:33 PM
See, she wants to "start paying her own bills" plus her part of any joint bills. This is all fine and dandy but she is neglecting to mention the bills that are in my name that we incurred along the way.

I mentioned coming to an agreement between ourselves without involving lawyers and she latched onto that idea before I even finished the sentence. I think she thought I meant settling EVERYTHING (finances, material things, kids, etc) without lawyers. Well, I put that to rest very abruptly as well.

I told her that we should agree on the finances and the stuff (because I didn't want anything from her that's not mine) and we would let the lawyers and the court settle the rest. She didn't have anything else to say about that.

I'm just angry with her and the fact that her family doesn't seem to want to "get in her business" or "make her mad" by basically telling her what it is that she's really doing...which is throwing away a lot of stuff just because "it's what she wants".
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/19/12 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
In regards to how she responded to my "no friendship" after this is over statement: she just got kind of quiet and didn't really have anything else to say after that. I ended the conversation and told her I would talk to her later and said goodbye.

This is giving her second thoughts. But you just need to reign in that anger because she uses that against you. It is real important that you put your emotions aside and be more strategic. See, she does not have a plan! you do!! laugh That gives you a huge advantage. She doesn't really think you are serious yet, but with what you said today, your email with your conditions, and getting served, she will GET how serious you are. So when the she is served with that sledgehammer, you need to be sitting there looking pretty.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/19/12 04:35 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I'm just angry with her and the fact that her family doesn't seem to want to "get in her business" or "make her mad" by basically telling her what it is that she's really doing...which is throwing away a lot of stuff just because "it's what she wants".

Don't lecture her anymore! you can see that those kind of conversations only make things worse. And they frustrate you terribly!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/19/12 04:47 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I'm just angry with her and the fact that her family doesn't seem to want to "get in her business" or "make her mad" by basically telling her what it is that she's really doing...which is throwing away a lot of stuff just because "it's what she wants".

Don't lecture her anymore! you can see that those kind of conversations only make things worse. And they frustrate you terribly!

I know. I mean, I really do know that. I tell myself that all the time..."stop doing it". But I guess the emotions take over. I'm gonna have to do some Yoga or meditation or something.

I have never experienced anything that has put me on this kind of emotional roller coaster.

I'll put everything I have into reigning my emotions in. Sorry I keep screwing up. I really am trying...much more so thatn it appears.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/19/12 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I'm just angry with her and the fact that her family doesn't seem to want to "get in her business" or "make her mad" by basically telling her what it is that she's really doing...which is throwing away a lot of stuff just because "it's what she wants".

Don't lecture her anymore! you can see that those kind of conversations only make things worse. And they frustrate you terribly!

I know. I mean, I really do know that. I tell myself that all the time..."stop doing it". But I guess the emotions take over. I'm gonna have to do some Yoga or meditation or something.

I have never experienced anything that has put me on this kind of emotional roller coaster.

I'll put everything I have into reigning my emotions in. Sorry I keep screwing up. I really am trying...much more so thatn it appears.

I know it is SO VERY HARD!! I was not able to do it myself. Try telling yourself that this is a STRATEGY and every time you lose your temper or lecture her, you are wrecking your PLAN and handing her ammunition to use against you.
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/20/12 04:40 AM
It's very hard, my friend, but you've done a good job in reminding her that you won't be friends if this does end in D.

That is more true than you can imagine. The friendly divorce only exists in Hollywood.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/20/12 12:52 PM
I have to say that I don't know if she even cares anymore. Or at least that's how it appears to me.

She also doesn't seem to be bothered at all that she's losing time with her kids. Losing time with my kids absolutely kills me. I'm pretty much a basket case when I don't have them.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/20/12 01:17 PM
It's more important to her right now to go out on the lake on her sister's boat and to be "free" than it is to uphold her family obligations.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/20/12 04:15 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I have to say that I don't know if she even cares anymore. Or at least that's how it appears to me.

Yes, we already knew this.

Quote
She also doesn't seem to be bothered at all that she's losing time with her kids. Losing time with my kids absolutely kills me. I'm pretty much a basket case when I don't have them.

She is not bothered NOW because she is high on her addiction to the OM. When the affair ends, boy oh boy, she will endure the greatest regret of her life. There will come a time - hopefully in the near future - when she realizes she is making the biggest mistake of her life.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/20/12 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
It's more important to her right now to go out on the lake on her sister's boat and to be "free" than it is to uphold her family obligations.

That is right. But don't say that to her, ok?

Trying to make her feel guilty [and she has lots to feel guilty about!] works against you, not for you. So don't give into that temptation.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/20/12 04:40 PM
ML,

I won't but I'm hurting more than I ever have in my life. I'm having a very bad low point this morning. I've been going to church by myself and I just start thinking about all we have done together and been through and I just hurt so bad.

I'm not showing her any of this but this pain is worse than ANY I have ever felt. I know Dr. Harley says it's worse than a death in the family and that is an understatement.

I'm sticking with the plan but I am losing hope quickly. I'm trying to stay positive, but just can't some days (or hours). The plan is still going. I'll be ok today....in a little while. I think I'm gonna go over to my parents' house for a while.

It just hurts so bad that the one person you thought you could trust and were gonna spend the rest of your life with can turn on you like this. I seriously want to "talk" to the POSOM...but I won't...I won't. I promise.

I still have such disbelief that this is even real and that it can't be happening. But it is....unfortunately.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/20/12 04:42 PM
Please forgive any mis-spelling or jumbled thought...I wrote these posts through the tears.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/20/12 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I'm sticking with the plan but I am losing hope quickly. I'm trying to stay positive, but just can't some days (or hours). The plan is still going. I'll be ok today....in a little while. I think I'm gonna go over to my parents' house for a while.

hugs to you, my friend. I know how deeply you are hurting. But I promise you it won't always be like this. No matter how this goes, you will come out of this and be happy again. I PROMISE YOU.

It is real important that you push through this depression for the sake of your kids. Get on anti-depressants, exercise, get out and do things. DRAG your body out the door and go do something.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{lookingforhelp}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/20/12 08:26 PM
Do some waywards NOT come out of the fog?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/20/12 08:37 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Do some waywards NOT come out of the fog?

That is correct. Some do not come out of the fog. Others do. In your case, i am certain that your wife is still in an active affair, which is why she is so withdrawn and foggy. I am hopeful that the divorce papers calling the OM into court might be a wake up call for the affairees.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/20/12 08:40 PM
Well you can bet your last bit of ice cream money that the papers are already in the works.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/20/12 08:54 PM
smile
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/21/12 01:13 AM
Does anyone know in a "normal" divorce with kids where the wife is the one divorcing, is it normal for the wife to continue to maintain contact about the kids when she has them? Contact in the form of texts and emails that might have pics of the kids doing little things that are not things that are necessary for communication?

I don't mean to sound like I don't want to see that kind of stuff but I feel like she kind of uses the kids to maintain communication with me. I guess I'm trying to figure out why she doesn't want anything to do with me and wants a divorce but she continues to stay in contact with me by using the kids.

I know we will always have to communicate about the kids but the stuff that she want to communicate about is sometimes meaningless stuff or things that seem like she wants to "direct me" or "tell me" what to do in regards to them.

Is this just another way of her trying to continue to control me? I know I shouldn't be trying to continuously analyze her actions because they are not analyzable so I'll understand if y'all tell me to not worry about this.

It just helps to post on here even if I don't get answers sometimes.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/21/12 02:27 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Does anyone know in a "normal" divorce with kids where the wife is the one divorcing, is it normal for the wife to continue to maintain contact about the kids when she has them? Contact in the form of texts and emails that might have pics of the kids doing little things that are not things that are necessary for communication?

I don't mean to sound like I don't want to see that kind of stuff but I feel like she kind of uses the kids to maintain communication with me. I guess I'm trying to figure out why she doesn't want anything to do with me and wants a divorce but she continues to stay in contact with me by using the kids.

I know we will always have to communicate about the kids but the stuff that she want to communicate about is sometimes meaningless stuff or things that seem like she wants to "direct me" or "tell me" what to do in regards to them.

Is this just another way of her trying to continue to control me? I know I shouldn't be trying to continuously analyze her actions because they are not analyzable so I'll understand if y'all tell me to not worry about this.

It just helps to post on here even if I don't get answers sometimes.

Very, very typical of WW's but in general WS. They think it helps reduce their guilt of tearing the family apart.

"See look I'm a good mom/dad because I send pictures of my kids".

Yes and you need to stop continuing analyizing because it will just give you a headache. Find something to do when these thoughts come upon you. Stay busy.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/21/12 12:05 PM
Thanks BrainHurts,

That makes perfect sense because I don't know how many times during our "conversations" she would just out of the blue say "well, I know I'm a good person and a good mom" all said while she was crying.

I know I shouldn't be trying to analyze everything she's doing. I just can't help it. I guess I keep thinking that maybe I can stumble on something that will help me help bring her out of the fog enough to see the reality of the situation.

I also know that thought process is futile. I hear what y'all are saying. It's just tough to not be able to do more than I've done or in the process of doing to help fix the situation. Not being able to understand or do much of anything is very difficult for me because I'm supposed to be able to take care of my family. Yet, in this situation, things are mostly out of my control...mostly (I guess that's the part that is driving me crazy).

I know I'm doing what I can by following the directions on the forum so I'll try to redirect my thinking when I start doing this next time. Thanks for humoring me by answering.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/21/12 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Thanks BrainHurts,

That makes perfect sense because I don't know how many times during our "conversations" she would just out of the blue say "well, I know I'm a good person and a good mom" all said while she was crying.

I know I shouldn't be trying to analyze everything she's doing. I just can't help it. I guess I keep thinking that maybe I can stumble on something that will help me help bring her out of the fog enough to see the reality of the situation.

I also know that thought process is futile. I hear what y'all are saying. It's just tough to not be able to do more than I've done or in the process of doing to help fix the situation. Not being able to understand or do much of anything is very difficult for me because I'm supposed to be able to take care of my family. Yet, in this situation, things are mostly out of my control...mostly (I guess that's the part that is driving me crazy).

I know I'm doing what I can by following the directions on the forum so I'll try to redirect my thinking when I start doing this next time. Thanks for humoring me by answering.


We've all been there and know what's it like to try and figure out the insanity.

Sometimes more than not there is no answer.

All we can do is make us the best we can be.

Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/21/12 04:03 PM
I want to throw something else out there for opinion. I know the final decision is mine but I want to know what the general thought is on here.

In my counter claim I may be able to ask for Permanent AND Temporary custody. If I am allowed to do that, should I ask for both or just the Permanent?

I've been debating on whether to do the Temp and just do the Perm. That will allow her to see what's coming and think about what she will be risking.

Just wanted to see what the forum thought about this.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/21/12 04:40 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I don't mean to sound like I don't want to see that kind of stuff but I feel like she kind of uses the kids to maintain communication with me. I guess I'm trying to figure out why she doesn't want anything to do with me and wants a divorce but she continues to stay in contact with me by using the kids.

It makes her feel less guilty about tearing up their family. This is why she wants to be your "friend."
Posted By: black_raven Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/21/12 04:56 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Does anyone know in a "normal" divorce with kids where the wife is the one divorcing, is it normal for the wife to continue to maintain contact about the kids when she has them? Contact in the form of texts and emails that might have pics of the kids doing little things that are not things that are necessary for communication?

What is a "normal" divorce?

I send info and pics to my ex of kids' activities. He sends me the same when he has them. It is not necessary and there is no ulterior motive other than keeping the other parent involved. But we are divorced and there is no illusion of what such communication means. He also does not live in the same state. Contact with the children is very limited during the school year. Your WW may be doing it to ease her guilt. I think that scenario is more likely.

Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/21/12 07:21 PM
I don't send my ex anything. I figure that if she wanted pictures she'd show up and take her own.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/21/12 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by helpthelostdads
I don't send my ex anything. I figure that if she wanted pictures she'd show up and take her own.

hurray

Awesome.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/21/12 08:50 PM
See, that's what I was thinking. My WW is just using it to stay in contact with me or like Mel said, to make herself feel less guilty.

These waywards are so confusing!!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/22/12 12:09 AM
All along I have had a hard time with trying to think about myself and trying to be happy by and with myself without thinking about her all the time.

I have been reluctant to do that because I felt like thinking about living without her meant that I was admitting that she was actually gone or not going to be my wife anymore. This has been very difficult for me to do. I have been consciously NOT allowing myself to get to that point of thinking.

Well, it appears that within the past couple weeks since she filed for divorce I am finding myself not being so consumed ALL the time with the thoughts of her not coming back. That is not to say that I don't still think about it quite often, I just don't seem to be consumed with those thoughts.

I am actually getting more and more to where I can laugh with friends, stay late at work and function without having to push those thoughts aside. They seem to be "fading"...so to speak.

That makes me happy in a way but it also makes me feel like I'm giving up...which I am not YET. I know the feeling of thinking that I'm giving up is being created by me, so I understand that I'm causing myself this extra pain and heartache.

I think some of you have been telling me that I've needed to get top this point WAY before now but it's not been easy for me to do. Loyalty and dedication to my "real" wife have been major barriers blocking me from doing so. I have had a hard time admitting quite a few things that y'all have gladly beat me until I admitted. I do appreciate those beatings.

It still bothers me that I am starting to think this way toward her but, it is what it is. She is NOT the woman I married and until the woman I married returns I HAVE to try to think about her as the enemy...in a way. So forgive me for this long post but I needed to write that down so I can go back and read it when I start NOT thinking this way.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/22/12 12:23 AM
One more thought....

It appears that with each person I tell "my story" and bring into my support circle, I find that her "excuse" for doing what she's doing and filing for divorce becomes more and more lame and unbelievable.

EVERY person that I have told has said pretty much the same thing..."what? She's leaving because of what? That's not the real reason."

Now, I have not told every one of the people in my support circle about the affair. I have told them everything else though. But even the ones that know everything still say that her actions and reasoning for what she's doing does not make sense.

I say all this to say that I am beginning to see (finally, right?) that I did have some fault (who doesn't) but my faults were not the cause of all that's happening.

I actually told her that very thing this past weekend. I told her that the "load of crap" she's been feeding me about my "emotional neglect" of her being the reason why she's doing all this is just that...a load of crap. She said "so you are saying now that you didn't do anything wrong?" I told her very quickly that I was NOT saying that. I told her that I have acknowledged that I was not perfect and have changed those things, but the affair and her filing for divorce were done on her own accord and decision.

She didn't have much to say in rebuttal to any of that.

She just keeps saying "this is what I want" and "I've made my decision".

Again, please forgive me for posting these novel-length posts. Y'all are the best part of my small support circle. Thanks for listening and replying to anything you read if you feel like it.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/22/12 05:14 PM
Just found out that she has posted a link to a song on her Facebook page with the following lyrics that basically tell on herself:

"I know I gotta put in the hours,
Make the money while the sunlight shines
But anything I gotta get done,
It can get done some other time

Time is love, gotta run,
Love to hang longer,
But I got someone who waits,
Waits for me and right now
She's where I need to be,
Time is love, gotta run

I only get so many minutes,
Don't wanna spend 'em all on the clock
In the time that we spent talkin',
How many kisses have I lost?

Time Is love, gotta run,
Love to hang longer,
But I got someone who waits,
Waits for me and right now
She's where I need to be,
Time is love, gotta run.

Gotta fly
Fly
Before one moment
Gets by...

Time Is love, gotta run,
Love to hang longer,
But I got someone who waits,
Waits for me and right now
She's where I need to be

Time is love, gotta run,
Love to hang longer,
But I got someone who waits,
Waits for me and right now
She's where I need to be,
Time is love, gotta run.

Time is Love, gotta run..."

This hurts to see and read, but it basically tells me what's going on in her head.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/23/12 12:40 AM
I dont know if she has been in contact with him or vice versa or if she's just hoping that he will be there if she divorces me. The truth about that will come out soon enough.

My question to y'all is this: what other things can I do to at least try to run him off the rest of the way or get him to show/tell her once and for all that he's not interested in her and does not want to be with her? Now, I dont mean should I ask him to help me out. I mean are there any other things that I can do to get him out of the picture?

I feel like if he's out of the picture in the sense that he tells or shows her that there is no future with him because he doesn't want to deal with all her baggage (ex-hubby, 2 kids, lawyers, court, etc), it would take that half of her fantasy away. I know he told her before that he didnt want a relationship with anyone and that he wouldnt be there waiting but I think she is so fogged up with him that what he told her did't register.

Before you drag out that 2x4 and yell "FILE...FILE...FILE...already"...know that I am compiling all the info needed to do just that when my lawyer gets back in town next week. I just didnt know if there were other things that could be done in the meantime.

My lawyer told me not to communicate with him in any form or fashion and I understand why. I wouldn't do anything to jeapordize my chances of any level of custody just to go have a man to man with him. Although I REALLY believe we could definitely come to a mutual agreement after a heart-to-heart discussion.

I'm just getting a little more anxious to think that filing may be one of the last tools in my arsenal that can help. I'm also having a very hard time with the fact that I'm watching "the woman formerly known as my wife" drop everything we have built over the past 12 total years to basically run off with another man while I can do almost nothing to influence or stop it.

I know I have MB and I'm using it the best I can, but I still wish there was more I could do. The hardest part is knowing with near 100% certainty that she WILL come out of the fog one day and realize what she has done, but that may be too late for me.

Please forgive yet another long and boring post.
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/23/12 02:17 AM
LFH, the hardest thing for anyone going through this mess is the acceptance that the only thing they truly control is their own actions and behaviors.

Waywards can be led to water....

You know the rest.

Nobody here is saying, "file, file!"

Do not talk to OM.

Calm the heck down and focus on you and your kids.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/23/12 02:53 AM
helpthelostdads,

I didn't mean to sound upset when I made the statement about filing. I understand the fact that counter filing is my next logical step and possibly one of the last potentially influential steps that I can take.

I'm trying to stay calm but as you can see, the farther along this situation progresses the harder staying calm becomes because I can see the "potential" end getting closer and closer. I don't mean to sound pessimistic because that is not my personality, but optimism is very difficult to maintain some days.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/23/12 02:59 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I feel like if he's out of the picture in the sense that he tells or shows her that there is no future with him because he doesn't want to deal with all her baggage (ex-hubby, 2 kids, lawyers, court, etc), it would take that half of her fantasy away. I know he told her before that he didnt want a relationship with anyone and that he wouldnt be there waiting but I think she is so fogged up with him that what he told her did't register.

I don't believe the affair is over. They might have told YOU he ended it, but he didn't. Her behavior has ALL the earmarks of an ongoing affair. My suspicion is that they have just gone further underground for the time being.

The only other thing you could do to run him off would be to prove they are still in contact and expose it. I don't know of any other way to run him off.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/23/12 01:15 PM
This is killing me. Thinking about her knowingly doing this to me and our kids when she KNOWS how it feels to be done this way because he cheated on her when they were married for that one brief MONTH!

I know y'all get tired of hearing me whine, complain, etc., and I'm sorry to subject everyone to that.

I guess we will see who's gonna be whining, complaining, etc., next week when he and her get served papers for all their records and she gets my counter claim papers!

Yes, I do go from being so angry and hurt one minute to being so completely and devastatingly heart broken the next. And I do see and understand that those times are very frustrating to my support circle.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/23/12 01:25 PM
I honestly do believe that if he is actually still involved with her instead of her having the fantasy in her head that he's waiting on her, he's only doing it for the physical part.

Like I stated before, from some of the stuff I discovered of him and her talking, he is not the kind of person who will want someone with all her extra "stuff" (ex-hubby, kids, lawyers, court, someone poking around in his personal records, etc).

I'm trying to keep myself optimistic about the potential results of my counter filing, but I actually do think she is more "addicted" to him than he is to her. There's no telling what kind of baloney she's telling him about what's going on. I mean, if she will lie to everyone that's close to her, she probably wouldn't hesitate when it comes to lying to him.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/23/12 02:49 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I honestly do believe that if he is actually still involved with her instead of her having the fantasy in her head that he's waiting on her, he's only doing it for the physical part.

Like I stated before, from some of the stuff I discovered of him and her talking, he is not the kind of person who will want someone with all her extra "stuff" (ex-hubby, kids, lawyers, court, someone poking around in his personal records, etc).

I'm trying to keep myself optimistic about the potential results of my counter filing, but I actually do think she is more "addicted" to him than he is to her. There's no telling what kind of baloney she's telling him about what's going on. I mean, if she will lie to everyone that's close to her, she probably wouldn't hesitate when it comes to lying to him.


You're probably correct about her being more addicted than he is to her.

WW are usually more emotionally attached than WH to their OP, not all but most.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/24/12 01:46 AM
I'm trying to compile my "bucket o' tools" for Plan A after she gets my counter claim. I know I'm supposed to avoid desperation at all costs, disrespectful judgments, angry outbursts and selfish demands (the Love Busters).

All the while that I'm NOT doing those things I'm supposed to be wooing her like I did when we first started dating. Well therein lies my need for some clarification. I've been thinking about this quite a bit the past few days while I have been compiling my post counter file game plan.

So when we first got together, the things I enjoyed doing were things like: sending her songs via email, text, etc., love notes everywhere, calling her to say hey, buying her small gifts that I would overhear that she wanted, etc.

I'm not really sure if any of those things are appropriate during Plan A. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think the main purpose is to keep letting her know in small but impact-full ways that I am "the better choice".
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/24/12 01:57 AM
A couple other clarifications I need are:

1. Is there a "grace period" after she actually gets served before I start Plan Aing?

2. Do I basically ignore her rants and raves (because I'm pretty sure she's gonna go ballistic on me) and reiterate my conditions and that there is a plan we can follow to rebuild our marriage?

There may be more things I would like opinions on if anyone feels inclined to put their 2 cents in.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/24/12 02:14 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
A couple other clarifications I need are:

1. Is there a "grace period" after she actually gets served before I start Plan Aing?

No. Having her served is a part of Plan A.

Quote
2. Do I basically ignore her rants and raves (because I'm pretty sure she's gonna go ballistic on me) and reiterate my conditions and that there is a plan we can follow to rebuild our marriage?

Just tell her you are so sorry she is upset, but you want to leave all that legal stuff to the lawyers.

As far as reaching out to her, I would be as genuine and pleasant as possible and look for opportunities to contact her. You don't want to appear desperate or phony.

And I very much agree with your assessment of the OM. If he cared one whit about your wife he wouldn't be having an affair with her. He will dump her at the first sign of real trouble. That is why I wanted you to spy on her and see what they are doing.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/24/12 02:32 AM
Just an observation/thought...

I think it's pretty obvious that my WW's affair is the worst case "soul mate" situation...or at least I feel like it is. Her emotional connection to this guy is deeply rooted all the way back to the beginning of her high school days. She married him (for a month) until she found out that he cheated on her (from what I have found out).

But, our whole relationship she has told me over and over that she believes in the idea that there is one person put on earth for every person to be with. She has told me multiple times over the past 12 years (total) that she knows and has known since we first met that I am that person for her. She has maintained that whole time that we are soul mates and that I am her best friend.

She has always treated me in the best possible ways our entire relationship and I have done her the same way. I have never been physically, emotionally or verbally abusive to her in any way. I have always tried to get her or help her get anything that she wanted that was within our monetary means. I do understand that material things are not what happiness is ALL about but I did these things because I wanted to do them for her. I enjoyed seeing her happy.

I'm writing all this to show how much more confusing her current behavior has been to me. I know there are others on this forum that have been through this same thing. I just know how emotional of a person she is and I don't know if her "bond" with the POSOM is going to be very easy to break to bring her out of the fog.

I would like to hear from any others who have been this far into (Plan D, I guess) and have been able to recover/reconcile before the final papers were signed. It has been suggested that I shouldn't be afraid of divorce because if she came out of the fog afterwards, we could always get back together, but I don't know if I could do that. My personality is such that if things go that far with her, I'm pretty sure that I would have lost too much of everything to allow myself to go back to her.

I know that may sound childish or whatever but I just feel that I wouldn't be able to do that. With that said, I also said my entire life that if my wife ever cheated on me, there would be NO discussion about it and that I would be gone. Divorce would be the result and I would never have anything else to do with her. Yes, I even told my WW that multiple times over the years.

But, here I am doing EVERYTHING I can think of and a lot of things I would never have thought about doing that this forum has directed me to do to try and save my marriage after her affair.

So I guess the point is that I should never say never huh?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/24/12 02:52 AM
Mel,

She has made the spying very difficult for me with this stupid separation. I spoke to a PI and he told me that coincidentally the car that she drives is one of the more difficult ones to stick a GPS on to. Believe me...I would LOVE to do some more spying on her to see if she has actually been in contact or seeing him during this separation.

I say this with a little reluctance because I have been wrong SO many times in this situation, but I really think she's smarter than to try and physically meet him because I think she knows that I would use that against her in the divorce. Now, do I think they have been in contact in some other fashion...very possibly.

It does make me wonder though if the POSOM would still be interested after what I told him would happen if he didn't stop. He knew I was serious. Would he think I was bluffing? That's quite a big gamble. I told him that all his relevant records would be subpoenaed and that he would be put on the stand in court under oath. I just didn't get the feeling from him nor from some of the things he told her in writing or verbally that he was interested in her enough to go through all that. Are OPs willing to risk that?

This is kind of what makes me wonder if maybe she actually hasn't contacted him in any way during the separation and has just had the fantasy of being with him in her mind. Her emotions are very strong and drive her life in a huge way (always has). She's letting them drive her entire thought process right now because, in my opinion, no woman that is using her brain and logical thought process is gonna up and leave her 2yr old and her 5 month old babies. Especially when she worked for so long (years) and tried so many things to even have kids. Yep, she was told she could never have kids but she has always wanted to.

This makes her willingness to give up ANY time with her kids that much more unbelievable to me.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/24/12 03:06 AM
LFH, return to the notes posted on this thread on 11 May (less than a fortnight ago!) and you'll find two by yours truly that contained the following:

Quote
Fight the good fight - send the letter and stick to the MB practices and principles thereafter. Remember, she has already "made" her choice; this is giving her one more shot to change her mind (back).

Do not get your hopes unduly raised. WWs come back to marriages about as often as Halley's Comet reappears.

You're doing what you're doing (beyond the slim hope of a return) to lay out to HER, satisfy YOURSELF in the future, and demonstrate to any THIRD-PARTIES (family, etc), that the destruction of your marriage was entirely on her choices and actions.

Recovery from infidelity is not always defined as reconciliation between WS and BS. It can also encompass giving the BS the self-strength to go forward unencumbered by thoughts of "Should I have...."
and
Quote
Reality is reality, my friend.

The ideal "positive outcome" is for her to see the errors of her ways and re-commit to you and your family. Short of that, a secondary "positive outcome" is the one I referenced, where you, having had her destroy your marriage, move forward with your life free from any sense of shared responsibility for its destruction.

Do NOT underestimate the importance of that freedom, LFH, if that's the way this is to play itself out.

There were also posts by MNG and Scotty whose wisdom ran along the same lines.

What we said then, should be by you internalized now.

You fought (are still fighting) the good fight. You were never favored to win - at least by this bookie. You fought the fight with the purpose of letting you come out of the other side with your head up, able to look anyone in the eye in the assurance of your own commitment to the institution of marriage.

The only thing wrong with you, as far as that goes, is you made a faulty (not poor) choice in a partner. As things look to be progressing, her inadequacies as such a partner are about to be no longer your concern.

She has long ago demonstrated her belief that "you" and "she" are not to be a "we". You should start mentally prepping yourself the same way.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/24/12 03:30 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I say this with a little reluctance because I have been wrong SO many times in this situation, but I really think she's smarter than to try and physically meet him because I think she knows that I would use that against her in the divorce. Now, do I think they have been in contact in some other fashion...very possibly.

That is exactly what I think. It could be via phone calls, internets, etc. But that is a continuation of the affair. And she probably does see him occasionally.

Quote
It does make me wonder though if the POSOM would still be interested after what I told him would happen if he didn't stop. He knew I was serious. Would he think I was bluffing?

Of course he knew you were bluffing. He just went further underground because you gave him your game plan. Thats a real easy one. He won't take you seriously until he is served.

Quote
This is kind of what makes me wonder if maybe she actually hasn't contacted him in any way during the separation and has just had the fantasy of being with him in her mind.

No, it is not a fantasy that is keeping her away, it is an affair. If the affair had ended she would be in withdrawal. She is not.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/24/12 03:35 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
She's letting them drive her entire thought process right now because, in my opinion, no woman that is using her brain and logical thought process is gonna up and leave her 2yr old and her 5 month old babies. Especially when she worked for so long (years) and tried so many things to even have kids. Yep, she was told she could never have kids but she has always wanted to.

This makes her willingness to give up ANY time with her kids that much more unbelievable to me..

Oh no, a fantasy is not strong enough to make a woman leave her marriage and her children. An ADDICTION IS. Her affair is the addiction. I assure you the affair is still in full swing.

If you can't get evidence of it on your own, then you have to get the evidence legally by having him served. Doing that increases your chances of reconciliation because it will drag the affair out into the light of day. Do that and you increase your chances of reconciliation.

But be assured this is not a "fantasy." They just went further underground.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/24/12 12:54 PM
He REALLY shouldn't think in any way that I was or am bluffing, because I meant every word I said to him and her. I made a point to not say anything that I was not prepared to follow through with if I was pushed that far.

They will both "see my hand" soon.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/24/12 12:55 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
He REALLY shouldn't think in any way that I was or am bluffing, because I meant every word I said to him and her.

They will both "see my hand" soon.
Atta boy no more Mr. Doormat!! Stay strong my friend. weightlifter
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/24/12 01:24 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
He REALLY shouldn't think in any way that I was or am bluffing, because I meant every word I said to him and her. I made a point to not say anything that I was not prepared to follow through with if I was pushed that far.

They will both "see my hand" soon.

That is what needs to happen in order for them to take you seriously.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/24/12 02:04 PM
It's going to happen. Hopefully next week when my lawyer gets back in town. I'm preparing all the documentation as we speak.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/24/12 04:21 PM
Seems like she just absolutely hates me these days. Any communication with her just gives me that feeling. She just comes across as though she wouldn't care nor would it bother her if I fell off the face of the earth.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/24/12 04:53 PM
Sorry for your dismay LFH. I have prayed for you to have courage and strength in these trying times and that you will have the words to say and the self respect you need to deal with everything thats being thrown at you.

Keep your chin up my friend. If this doesnt boil out that you retain your family unit, then if nothing else.. you will become a better man using the MB tools here for some lucky gal in the future.

MNG
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/24/12 05:04 PM
I appreciate that MNG.

I'm trying to stay on the path and keep my eye on the potential prize. She is just behaving like a stranger that doesn't or hasn't had any type of connection with me of any type. To see and feel her behave toward me in the fashion that she is right now is very hard to swallow.

I understand that it's the addiction that's making her do this but it is taking it's toll on my Love Bank for her. I'm trying to not let it bother me because if I allow her to empty my Love Bank for her and she actually does come out of the fog soon, I won't have the desire to take her back.

I'm keeping up the fight to the very end because I believe she's being like this toward me to try to push me away intentionally so her plan will be easier to complete.

I know I sound like a broken record, but to see her go from believing I was the one she wanted to spend the rest of her life with to acting like she doesn't even care if I exist and that I'm her worst enemy all within the past 6 months is just the most unbelievable and difficult to understand thing I have ever seen.

To see her behavior toward me right now, you would NEVER know that we have been married for 7 years and been best friends for over 12 years.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/24/12 10:20 PM
If my counter file does have an effect on both of them where he decides and tells her that he's done, what kind of reaction do I want to see from her...after the initial anger I guess?

I mean, I know she's not going to have a miraculous recovery and come running back into my arms. But what does the MB program want her reaction to be?

Will the reaction/changes be minute or very noticeable?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/26/12 12:58 AM
Just finished up a VERY pleasant 47 minute conversation (can you hear the sarcasm) with the crazy WW. Just a few of the more notable quotes from her during that conversation:

1. "I'm sorry that you don't understand that people's feeling sometimes change."

2. "I'm sorry you don't understand that we're at different points."

3. "We both played a part in getting to where we are."

4. "I've been trying to work with on everything up until this point"

5. "I don't understand why we can't come to a decision about everything between ourselves without letting the lawyers do it"

6. "I'm sorry you don't understand and are having a hard time with the reason that I'm leaving...because I'm not happy."

7. "I want to come get some of my stuff but I don't want to do it while you're there" --- that one was para-phrased but the meaning is the exact same.

8. "I know someone who wants to buy the house".

I could go on and on but I'm sure y'all have heard these before.

The way I feel right this very second....I don't have any desire left for her. Now...I understand that I'm dealing with the "anti-her" but I can actually FEEL myself beginning to think/obsess less and less about her coming back to me. I don't know if that's good or bad but it's definitely weird to feel like I'm not interested in my own wife.

She actually had the nerve or whatever to tell me that I'm not the same person she married...what????? Really???? You can't use that line on me!! This wayward speak has got to be the most confusing, nonsensical, contradictory, take-the-blame-off-myself LOAD OF CRAP I have ever experienced in my life!!!

What kind of scares(??) me a little is the fact that I seem to be developing or have developed so much anger/contempt/dislike for her right now that I don't really even want to be around her, talk to her or even communicate with her. Whenever I see her name on my phone, email or text my whole body tenses up. That's pretty horrible to feel that way about the person you've been married to for the past 7 years and have children with.

What does that mean?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/26/12 01:08 AM
I wish there was a word that explained my WW's behavior better than INSANE!

She just replied to an email I sent her about a monetary issue and she actually said "Have a good night". Unbelievable!!

We just finished a conversation on the phone that was anything but pleasant. I will never understand this....I know....I'm not supposed to.

I've been doing a lot of thinking and have come to realize that the REAL reason for Plan B is actually to separate the BS from the WS to keep the BS from dying from the smell of all the bull**** that comes out of a WS's mouth!!
Posted By: helpthelostdads Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/26/12 03:52 AM
All standard stuff.

She's being "pleasant" to assuage her guilt. She still has the fantasy that after you've dealt with the pain, you two will be BFFs and all will be grand with the world.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/26/12 04:00 AM
...bull**** that comes out of a WS's mouth!! rotflmao

Sorry, but I just wish I knew someone with cartoon-drawing talent!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/26/12 11:26 AM
As I lay in bed this morning after only 4 hours sleep and thought through the happenings over the past few months and the behavior that's coming from her I came to the realization that her conscience has become completely non-existent.

She sees nothing wrong with anything that she does or says and what's worse is that she keeps trying to convince ME that I should accept her beliefs as well.

I understand that all of this is typical wayward ways of life. It's just so un-natural to see a person that you know is an intelligent being, go from one extreme to the other.

Crazy I say....crazy.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/26/12 01:22 PM
As bad as I hate to say or admit this but it's getting more and more difficult for me to be nice to this person that has taken over my wife's body and mind.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/27/12 05:24 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
As bad as I hate to say or admit this but it's getting more and more difficult for me to be nice to this person that has taken over my wife's body and mind.

It sounds like your lovebank is getting lower.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/27/12 01:05 PM
Brain,

You are correct. I can feel it happening, but I'm not ready for it to be empty. I'm working on keeping that from happening but she's making it very difficult.

Yesterday at the end of a conversation we had on the phone, I plainly reiterated the fact about what kind of "relationship" we would have if we divorced in a very plain and direct way that it WILL NOT be misunderstood. I just wanted her to hear it again that she will only be the mother of my children if she carries this all the way to divorce.

I know I probably didn't need to say it again but I felt that I needed/wanted to make sure she understood that I was serious.

So, I was pretty upset in a way that I began to distance myself from her emotionally. When I met her yesterday morning to pick up the kids, I put the kids in my car while she was mentioning a couple things about them and then I just left. I wasn't rude or mean in any way, I just didn't really want to have a conversation with her. I don't think I did that to prove anything. That's the way things will be if she pushes this through to the end. I don't know if she cares or not but I have gotten to the point where I feel like I need to start protecting my heart and feelings from her.

She emailed me this morning with a long email that was completely unnecessary (in regards to a couple that is divorcing). She was nice and pleasant and almost friendly sounding.

This made me realize something. When she starts being conversational in a nice and friendly way I think I try to interpret that as her subtle way to begin communicating with me to work her way up to talking through our issues. I feel like IF she ever gets to the point of "waking up" to see what it is she's doing, she may have a hard time coming to me to start that conversation. So when she talks all nice and friendly, I fall right in (and out of my Plan mode) and start to be nice and friendly back to her. When that happens I start being compassionate and try to talk about the issues. Most of the time that doesn't end well.

Saying all that, I guess it boils down to this: I can't tell when she's "playing her game" with me or when she might be trying to subtly communicate with me in a legitimate way to try and ask for help.

Does anyone have any advice or clues as to how to tell the difference? Or, will it be so obvious when she's ready to actually communicate about reconciliation that I'll be able to tell?
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/28/12 09:00 PM
Does anyone have any advice or clues as to how to tell the difference?

The spoken words of an active wayward are not worth the paper they're (not) printed on.

There is no value in what she says, LFH. ***EDIT***

It is only her actions that should have any weight with your consideration of her mind and intentions.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/28/12 10:01 PM
Clear enough.

Unfortunately (for me) her actions right now are very clear that she wants out as fast as she can get out.

And all the clues/information alludes to her either actually having someone "waiting" when she gets out or that there is someone she has in mind to "chase" once she gets out. But it is pretty much crystal clear right now that she definitely wants out according to her actions AND words.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/29/12 01:15 AM
I get these "waves" of complete disbelief that ANY addiction can be stronger than a mother's biological connection to her kids or babies.

I know understanding this is not anything I will ever be able to do, but to see a mother seem to be ok with leaving her few month old baby and her 2 year old little girl is just beyond comprehension.
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/29/12 01:29 AM
So sorry, Looking. Yes, that is awful. Did you read Pepperband's post on "deceives, hardens, destroys?" You should.

Stay strong for those babies. Your WW is the one who has lost everything, not you.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/29/12 01:58 AM
That post describes my WW exactly.

I sure wish there was a magic switch to help her see what's going on inside her own mind and heart.

I have one more major card to play...my counter divorce filing. I can only hope and wish it will do the trick.

Still holding on to hope.....
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/29/12 02:09 AM
I will say this, my marriage has been long and hard. Early on, I thought it would be so tragic to have my WH leave babies, or little children (not quite as bad as Mommy checking out, I know). Now I see the children would probably have recovered far more easily with him just gone then, if that was the way he was going to do his life. Having him leave a houseful of teenagers has been more devastating than I imagined.

I hope she shapes up. I do. But if she's never going to, sooner is better than later. Still hoping for you.

Thoughts and prayers, Looking. Wish you the best.

Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/29/12 10:48 PM
It seems every day I come across something that reminds me or makes me think about how absolutely crazy my WW's behavior is. I wish there was a magic ball she could look into that would show her how insane her decisions are.

I'll be doing something completely innocent around the house and come across something that makes me step back and look at a larger view. Looking at a larger view I can see scenarios where it looks like something just "snatched" her cleanly out of the spot where she was standing.

Kind of like the "rapture" or something where the setting where the person was standing is still completely intact. The only thing missing is the person.

My WW basically took what she needed when she left 2 months ago when the separation began and really hasn't taken anything else. It's the craziest and weirdest feeling to walk through the house and see her bathroom sink area where some of her things are still sitting like they always have.

It's like nothing else in this entire world (including her friends, family and most importantly her kids) mean ANYTHING to her anymore. Only the thoughts of the POSOM (I'm still assuming at this point). Now, if I were to say to HER that she was leaving her kids, she would go ballistic on me and try to convince me that she IS NOT leaving or neglecting her kids.

I don't care how you look at it...in my mind she's leaving/neglecting her kids. I don't mean to upset anyone on this forum that has been in her position but this is how I feel about my situation. It is absolutely a FACT that her conscience and rational thought process has went out the door!

And she STILL asks me during conversations, "are you upset with me about something?".....I'm speechless every time that comes out of her mounth!
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/30/12 12:42 AM
Wayward alien. They're all the same. There's a dull kind of comfort in that. They all think they're special - they found their soulmate, blahblahblah. They're all the same kind of crazy.

Have you thought of going into Plan B, Looking? I haven't read your whole post. But you're obviously still in communication. If she's not home and won't come home, you can't really do Plan A. Maybe it would provide some sanity for you, and a rude awakening for her, if you went to Plan B.

To validate you, she has totally abandoned her children. She doesn't care. She only cares about herself and her "drug" right now. She's an out of control addict, who sees nothing else. Hopefully the fog will dissipate sooner rather than later.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/30/12 12:56 AM
I have actually thought about Plan B but am trying to stay on the path the Vets have me on. I think we're waiting to see what kind of effect my counter file has before they recommend my next "phase" or move.

I'm meeting with my lawyer this Thursday to complete my paperwork to counter file. I hate the thought of doing that but she has pushed me into a corner and my main concern right now is my kids. If I get her back in the process then we can definitely deal with that as well, but my kids are what I'm concentrating on now.

Oh yea...just wanted to say that she STILL doesn't get the fact that I am not and will not be at her beck and call if we divorce.

She just called me to help her with her computer not connecting to the Internet. I REALLY wanted to say "I'm not your personal IT department anymore", but I didn't. It may have been wrong but I didn't really help her either. I don't know what it's gonna take for her to understand and believe that she no longer has and will not have access to me like that!
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/30/12 01:03 AM
That makes sense. Kids are most important, for sure. But it doesn't sound like you're really doing Plan A either? I'm no vet, so I'm sure they know what they're doing, and if you're following their advice, you're on the right path.

Just wondered.

Seems like if you were in Plan A, you WOULD be doing everything you could for her, to meet her needs. If you go to Plan B, that's when she gets the bucket of cold water in the fact reality that you will not be. Sounds like maybe you are more in limbo? Maybe that's necessary to get the counter filing done first. Not somewhere to stay longterm, though. Hopefully people more experienced than I check in on you soon.

Best wishes, Looking.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/30/12 01:26 AM
Rainy,

You're right in that I'm kind of in between Plans. I guess I've had a hard time sticking to Plan A to a tee because she has continued to use and take advantage of me. I know I allowed most of that because it's hard for me to distinguish between Plan A and being taken advantage of. I have worked on that.

I am trying to do Plan A - Carrot and Stick. I have to admit that I have been flubbing up with the Carrot part. I am kind of in a confused state right now.

I think I SHOULD still be doing Plan A (being there to help at every opportunity without being used or taken advantage of) but I also have been told that I need to show her that I'm not there for her every whim. I've been concentrating on trying to do that.

I've tried to start being polite/nice/pleasant but firm at the same time to let her know that I won't be a doormat anymore. I also think I have let my anger and resentment get the best of me at times.

It's just difficult to know how to be pleasant and nice when I'm being asked by her to split up the finances, decide long-term about the holidays in regards to who gets the kids when, her trying to get me to sell our house, etc. I'm having a very hard time understanding how to do that.
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/30/12 01:45 AM
Again, not a vet, so take their word over mine. Have you had a session with one of the Harley's? They could give you more concrete advice, or the radio show - that's free.

Plan B is to protect YOU. To keep your love bank from getting any lower, to pull you out of the craziness. It also has the added benefit of giving your WW a taste of real life without you.

I'm not saying you shouldn't do Plan A, and I'm sure most everyone messes up in it sometimes, but if you really feel like you are to the point where you CAN'T do it, maybe it's time to Plan B, for yourself.

You would get an intermediary, cut off all contact with her, and all these unpleasant arrangements you are making would have to go through the IM or your lawyers. Might complicate things more. Or might save your sanity - I don't know.

If you find that you cannot genuinely love unconditionally most of the time, get back up after a setback, try to meet her needs with no expectation of her returning the favor - then it seems to me you might as well get ready to go into Plan B. Because you aren't really doing Plan A anyway. Prepare first, of course.

The trick for me in Plan A (and this is before I knew anything about MB or that I was even doing Plan A - wish I'd had all this long ago) was to remember that I could not be like my WH - I had to choose to think and then behave in responsible and productive ways, even when I didn't feel like it. I reminded myself that this was not about me, it was about him (and no - he sure didn't deserve it, but that didn't matter), and I tried to look for the light inside him that I knew was still there somewhere. I pictured him lost (instead of a horrible monster who was deliberately killing me slowly), and tried to be a lighthouse that could radiate light and guide him home if he chose to follow it. I prayed all the time that God would help heal my heart, and help me to see my WH the way that God himself saw him. He did. I really did feel an overwhelming amount of love and peace during most of the months when I was doing Plan A, without knowing it. That was the strongest I had felt in years. (Then I let myself go back to plan doormat after he left; I didn't know about Plan B or MB until a few months ago. It's been a horrific year and a half, until I finally found the strength to stand up for myself and my family, but in Plan B this time).

I reminded myself constantly in Plan A that I was coming not from a place of weakness (doormat, at his beck and call), but a place of quiet moral strength. I was standing up for my marriage and family, trying to save it with strength, maturity, and love. If I really couldn't do something, I'd say, "I'm sorry, I can't do that right now. I'd be happy to help you after 8:00." or tomorrow, or whatever. And I didn't let myself feel guilty.

And my WH did briefly turn around. For a few short months he became the husband and father he'd had the potential to be all along. If I'd had MB then, we probably would have stayed in recovery. We just didn't know what to do after that, and allowed ourselves to slip a little, get scared, I didn't know to insist on no contact and the OW kept after him constantly, we had a few bad days, and that was that. You are fortunate in that you do have MB, you will know exactly what to do if you and your wife get into recovery.

Maybe you are just at your limit, Looking. I don't know, and can't say for you. But if you are, you may be doing more harm than good - to yourself and your marriage. You should not be a doormat, either way.

Wish I had more concrete advice, but more experienced folks on here probably do. My heart does go out to you. I'm impressed with the men who have the courage to get on here, honestly look at themselves and their lives, and try to save their marriages and families. I think that's harder for men. (Not easy for women either, but I think you're more in the minority). Your children are fortunate to have you.
Posted By: Viper Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/30/12 02:01 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Rainy,

You're right in that I'm kind of in between Plans. I guess I've had a hard time sticking to Plan A to a tee because she has continued to use and take advantage of me. I know I allowed most of that because it's hard for me to distinguish between Plan A and being taken advantage of. I have worked on that.

I am trying to do Plan A - Carrot and Stick. I have to admit that I have been flubbing up with the Carrot part. I am kind of in a confused state right now.

I think I SHOULD still be doing Plan A (being there to help at every opportunity without being used or taken advantage of) but I also have been told that I need to show her that I'm not there for her every whim. I've been concentrating on trying to do that.

I've tried to start being polite/nice/pleasant but firm at the same time to let her know that I won't be a doormat anymore. I also think I have let my anger and resentment get the best of me at times.

It's just difficult to know how to be pleasant and nice when I'm being asked by her to split up the finances, decide long-term about the holidays in regards to who gets the kids when, her trying to get me to sell our house, etc. I'm having a very hard time understanding how to do that.
lfh, here's a post that I thought might be a little helpful to you right now. It was posted a few eons back, but still quite applicable. Hope it helps because as counter intuitive as it sounds, it makes perfect sense.

Originally Posted by ark^^
I posted this to lostwithouther a short while back..

I liked this post...
I still pray now more than ever he can become the lighthouse....

I hope some others find comfort from the storm...


Your spouse is in huge conflict....

the good news is and the truth is that they are totally incapable of a healthy relationship with anyone right now...

the competition we believe that exist with the OP is a shallow empty reflection of Gods light in this world...

It is empty and lonely no matter how good the rush

their actions are actions that they themselves do not like in themselves right now....though the need to go back again again and attempt to prove themselves wrong or right is strong...they do not like what they are doing...

their actions towards you, the children, the OP, and themselves...keep them from engaging in any type of real interactions...with real depth and truth

all they offer are misguided attempts to fill the void that has appeared in their life...
yet the filling is way too fleeting to sustain them and the truth is with them each night he or she lays down regardless of whom is next to them....

they are the living cliche..of no matter where you go to hide...there YOU are...

he or she is lost to themselves...

and you stand at that point of being the lighthouse home....even though they create the waves that block their vision from seeing that...

You become the lighthouse..you fill your home with light, calmness and sanctuary...

see just visualize yourself as a lighthouse...

Your offer them glimpses into that sanctuary at every chance you get...
you invite them towards it...let them know it is there as much as you can in a most subtle way....

they are untrustable right now...
but you know that...so they can't hurt you right now...they will spend great energy to convince others differently...but you know better...

you show the path by also protecting the children from their painful actions.....
set clear boundaries that the OP is not part of your childrens lives....
without lovebusting...
offer alternatives that let them see the children...but be clear that the OP is to have no access to them...
you fill the childrens lives with stability....they deserve it and need it more than anything else....

Do not discuss and or powerstruggle with them on irrational movements...seek out and validate the rational ones with lots of praise for when he or she chooses correctly....

your spouse is very lonely and sad right now..but that is OK...no one can stay very long in that chaos...it is wearisome to the soul...
and remove yourself from any aspect of participating or adding to the chaos...and eventually they will see that you are the only one...who stood with clarity and reason when they needed it most...


be the lighthouse....
OK that's really out there I know....

strength to you all..
ARK
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/30/12 02:05 AM
I thought it was beautifully put, Tiger. Thanks.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/30/12 02:10 AM
Rainy,

Your words mean a lot to me and give me a different way of seeing how to do Plan A that the Vets are trying to guide me to do.

You are right again that I may be hurting things more than helping right now because I have been pushed and pushed by her. I really do want to at least try to save my marriage because it was never bad enough to warrant this. It was actually pretty good. We have/had some issues that we can/could work through just as any marriage has. But then she had the affair and threw that into the mix and everything went downhill VERY quickly.

I am going to post a question for the Vets to clarify for me that your post has brought back to light for me. Thank you for your kind words about everything.

I sincerely hope my kids feel that way about me because I am truly blessed and lucky to be able to be their dad. There is nothing I would not do for those kids...nothing. If it means being single and celibate the rest of my life to be able to spend time with them then that would be fine with me.

But that won't happen because I know (after many speeches from others toward me) that I am a great catch for someone in the future if I can't save my marriage. I'm a great guy with a great sense of humor. I have known this all my life but never been comfortable saying these kinds of things about myself.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/30/12 02:22 AM
Vets,

After reading Rainy's post about how she handled Plan A even when it didn't make sense and was difficult at times I wanted to clarify something.

At the point I am right now..she has filed for divorce, I am counter filing in a couple days, she has requested we split up finances, we have been separated for 2 months, etc., should I try to go full on with Plan A at this point?

Now to clarify what I'm asking...I'm actually doing some Carrot and about to do more Stick when I counter file. I have let the Plan A being nice and pleasant slip a bit of late because she has taken quite a bit from my LoveBank. It's VERY low right now but not empty.

My concern is if I start full blown with Plan A (none of the 3 Love Busters, being nice to her at every opportunity while not being a doormat, etc) even though it feel so very odd to ME, will this not be extremely weird to her after the way we have been lately?

Y'all know my issue with Plan A which is knowing where and when to say no and stop being a doormat. Part of me feels like if I DON'T help her at times, it will give her a taste of what she will be giving up. But, that may need to be saved for Plan B if her and I need to go there.

Let me know what y'all think and also let me know if you need more info (for those who haven't followed me).

Sorry to ask this again, but I had started to kind of give up but I don't want to do that. I do still feel that there is SOME hope. It's just hard to see through all the negativity coming from her, especially now that she has filed and lawyers are involved.
Posted By: Viper Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/30/12 02:42 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Y'all know my issue with Plan A which is knowing where and when to say no and stop being a doormat. Part of me feels like if I DON'T help her at times, it will give her a taste of what she will be giving up. But, that may need to be saved for Plan B if her and I need to go there.
You asked and answered your own question in one paragraph. You don't give her a taste of what she will be giving up, you give her a taste of what she receives if she stays. That's Plan A. I know it's hard and it sucks, but that's your job if you want any chance at recovery. That's just the way it is.

Plan B comes when you have exhausted all your PA energies and your LB$ runs dangerously low. Only you can decide when that is, but I sense you are getting pretty close. You may want to start planning for PB but at the same time PA'ing your [censored] off.

You're right, you are stuck in the middle. You need to right that ship and Plan A like you never have before. Just keep putting the cha-ching in her bank to the best of your abilities.

When you've finally had enough, go dark.

ETA: No, I'm not a vet, just my thoughts.
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/30/12 03:01 AM
[youtube)nUpjtrkKA-I[youtube] Like a Lighthouse
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/30/12 03:33 AM
Originally Posted by rainysweet
[youtube)nUpjtrkKA-I[youtube] Like a Lighthouse

In addition to TW and Rainy's posts here's the full lighthouse thread.
be the lighthouse..a post for those feeling tossed in the waves
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/30/12 11:57 AM
Hey y'all,

After watching that video and wiping the tears from my eyes I have realized that I am angry and hurt by what she is doing and has done, but I think I'm more hurt or upset by the fact that I KNOW my wife is still in there but I can't get to her.

It's like she's been kidnapped and I'm not allowed to see her but I get little snippets of her from the kidnapper every now and then. It's the worst feeling in the world, as most of you on here know, to KNOW your spouse is within arms reach but you can't actually get to them.

The pain of knowing they're lost and unwilling (because of the fog/addiction) to allow you to get to them hurts so much that it's almost unbearable. I have felt this way the entire time we have been going through this.

I've had the weird feeling that I knew my wife was inside that alien body and mind but I was being kept from her. That thought would make me so utterly sad, then angry and then hurt beyond explanation. I have felt sorry for her because I know this is not her and because I know I'm the only one that might be able to help her. I have never wanted to abandon her in this state but sometimes the anger and hurt make me briefly feel that she deserves everything she gets.

I understand that I HAVE to be the lighthouse, yet doing that sometimes is so hard that I don't know how to continue. Especially when she (the alien) works so hard to discourage me with everything she's doing or forcing me to do.

I have to find a way to be the best lighthouse on the planet and to stay on that course no matter what.

I would like to hear from a few of the Vets to be sure that I haven't strayed too far from that to go back. I don't know if my making the changes from where I have been with her lately to Plan A'ing like a madman and becoming the lighthouse she needs will seem too "phony" to her. Maybe I should ease back into it and THEN open up the gates to the lighthouse. Maybe I should wait until after I counter file.

I know I have been the sole cause of not sticking to the plans everyone has tried to keep me on. It's just so difficult to do so when my WW is filing for divorce, wanting to split up finances, wanting to talk custody, telling me about how horrible of a dad she thinks I've been (this one hurt more than anything she's done or said especially because she knows it's not the truth), talking like I'm the furthest thing from her mind (which I'm sure I am right now), talking about coming over to get her stuff, etc.

She is in such a hurry to get this over with and that hurts me even more. Makes me feel like nothing we have built is worth anything to her. I do understand that all of this IS meaningless to her right now. The wife, marriage, family and life I knew before are gone. I have come to accept that...for the most part. It's hard to completely accept that but I'm getting there.

I know I'll be fine if this doesn't work out. I have come to realize that I AM a great catch and will not have any problems finding someone else to spend my life with. As far as that goes, friends are already throwing out hints about their single friends, sisters, etc., that they can set me up with. I have never had a problem attracting women (please don't take that as my being stuck on myself).

I do know that I want to try every possible way to save my marriage and get my family back together because I don't think anything has happened that can't be worked through to make us a stronger couple than before. I just HAVE to stick to the plans given to me here and "let the chips fall where they may" I guess.

So, Vets, if you get a chance to chime in and let me know what you think at this point I would very much appreciate it. I know many of you are tired of me, my posting, my flip-flopping back and forth and everything else so I understand if I get yet another beating.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/30/12 12:59 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Y'all know my issue with Plan A which is knowing where and when to say no and stop being a doormat. Part of me feels like if I DON'T help her at times, it will give her a taste of what she will be giving up. But, that may need to be saved for Plan B if her and I need to go there.

lfh, I think you should help her at times. When it is reasonable. For example, helping her get on the internet would have been a great way to make contact. I would look for those kinds of opportunities. On the other hand, being at her beck and call when she calls and commands you to fetch something for her is not a good idea. That is plan doormat and Plan A is not supposed to involve sacrifice.

You don't want to give her a taste of divorce NOW, that comes in Plan B.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/30/12 02:21 PM
Mel,
I understand. I have tried to do this but have gotten side tracked due to the anger, resentment and hurt.

I have been unsure of how to implement some of the things you have told me but I FINALLY see that I have nothing to lose here because she is, for all intents and purposes, already gone.

I will attempt to implement as best as possible. I know she will be confused because I have honestly not been very warm and comforting lately because....well everyone knows why. It's hard to be that way when someone treats, speaks and behaves toward you like you are the last person on the planet they want anything to do with. It's also hard to deal with the idea/fact that she is more interested in another man (not really the right term to describe him) than in her own husband, family and kids.

I know that's all part of the effects of the fog and addiction, but it's still very hard to swallow.

I need to reply to an email from her so I'll get started right away with implementation.
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/30/12 02:22 PM
Hey, Looking.

I think your wife is "in such a hurry" because she doesn't want to look back, doesn't want to take time to stop and think or feel anything about what she's doing. Easier to make you a monster and get out while she's telling herself she hates you.

My advice (as a novice), but having watched my WH move far beyond the point where your wife is, seeing what worked and didn't, and which things I wish I'd done very differently, is that I think you might still have a shot at this. You still love her. She is trying to convince herself otherwise, but I think she still loves you. Otherwise, she would not be in such a hurry to get done with things, would not try to egg you on to anger so she can justify her terrible behavior, and would not call you for help.

I would not give her ANY reason to demonize you the way she is trying to you. Don't be a doormat, but stand up and be the loving, strong, husband who is tough enough to love her even through this, and to set an example of what is right and true through the worst behavior from her.

If you go to Plan B, then you will know you did all you could, and so will she. She will remember, and know what she's throwing away.

FYI, not sure what your beliefs are but you don't have to be a lighthouse by yourself. I pictured God or my Savior (or whatever you believe in) standing right behind me, backing me up, strengthening me when I had no strength, and making sure that light stayed on all the time even when my power had long since run out. Of course God wants to help you save your marriage, and He will help you do everything you can. It's you and Him against the darkness of this affair, giving your WW an opportunity to find her way home.

God bless.
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/30/12 02:23 PM
And ask Him to fill you up with that light, too. Then let Him. He will. It helps the hurt and anger.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/30/12 02:33 PM
Rainy,

Believe me, He has probably gotten tired of hearing me sound like a broken record EVERY DAY when I ask for the strength and guidance to be able to deal with this. I have also been asking Him to help her and forgive her for what she's done.

And I DO love her or at least the "real" her and I honestly believe that she still loves me, but she can't or doesn't want to see that right now. No one knows how it will turn out if we do get a shot at reconciliation, but I know that I want a shot at it. This doesn't need to end here.

Again...I know she's in there somewhere and it's my responsibility and duty to keep trying to "rescue" her without sacrificing myself in any way.

I'm going to do the best I can!
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/30/12 03:13 PM
Good luck! I know exactly what you mean, about all of it:)
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/30/12 03:31 PM
LFH, the idea of a Plan A is two-fold in its intended result: its effect on HER, and its effect on YOU.

One of the salient points to be gathered from the experiences related here is that the ability to implement a Plan A varies widely among the BHs - both in fidelity during the operation, and the duration endurable. (IMHO, there can be no shame in not being an extraordinary Plan A'er to a moved-out WW, such as GJM. NOT cutting her brake-lines when she came to retrieve her belongings would have been about as much Plan A as I could have generated.)

Having to be a paragon of assistance and devotion, with no expectation of acknowledgement or reciprocation would be galling and incredibly draining. If the effect on HER is not positive, then the effect on YOU would be such that the "steel" within you would be annealed to support a rigorous Plan B.

There's a sports maxim that says, "Leave it all on the field!" I think that applies to Plan A. Leave all your efforts and enterprise exhausted during the Plan A, so you can enter Plan B free of "what ifs".

Are you yet there? Are you near there?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/30/12 05:00 PM
I do keep wondering if she will misinterpret the nice and pleasant attitude from me during Plan A Carrot as though this is the way it is gonna remain?

OR

Will the Plan A Stick tell her otherwise?

I just don't understand what will keep her from thinking that my being nice to her now is how things will be forever. Does that make sense?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/30/12 05:05 PM
NG,

I feel like I have been bordering on being at my limit with Plan A but I don't want to give up on it yet.

With all her negativity toward me and he rush to finish things make it very difficult for me to "stay on the wagon". I really want to continue until the very last minute but things just get to me sometimes and my "I've had enough of her crap" attitude kicks in. When that happens I just want to say "to heck with her, she does not deserve me or my love", but that's really just my anger and resentment talking.

I dont want to give up on her or my marriage until the gavel drops.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/30/12 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I do keep wondering if she will misinterpret the nice and pleasant attitude from me during Plan A Carrot as though this is the way it is gonna remain?

OR

Will the Plan A Stick tell her otherwise?

I just don't understand what will keep her from thinking that my being nice to her now is how things will be forever. Does that make sense?

Hopefully she does think you will be nice to her forever if she will end her affair. THAT IS THE POINT!! You are in a competition with the OM. Do you think he is spiteful and resentful? The goal here is to attract her back by competing with the OM. Who do you think looks more attractive?

Who is the more attractive option? You? Or the OM? Is he lovebusting her?

See, every time you lovebust her or act unpleasant, you make the OM look good. My question is whose side are you on?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/30/12 06:47 PM
Mel,

I see your point very clearly. I keep flip-flopping between implementing Plan A perfectly to allowing my anger and resentment to get the best of me and "retaliating" with the same kind of treatment that she's giving me.

I have had an awefull time keeping up the Plan A face while she's disrespecting me, bad mouthing me, rushing to split finances, drawing me into arguments, etc. When I step back and look at that I see that it shows how weak my determination or whatever word you want to use is during those times when she's doing those things.

I think the key for me is to learn to let the CRAP that she uses against me roll off. I have to learn to make myself stay focused through all that and concentrate on winning. I have to treat it like War, but War involving willpower, determination, patience, etc., instead of weapons.

I also have to realize that it's not my wife saying those things and behaving like that toward me. I guess I just let her get under my skin and I have to be able to block those feeling right now. That will be tough for me because I have always had the mindset or personality trait (good or bad) where I feel that if you wrong me then I am done with you and will not have anything else to do with you.

That "trait" is exactly why when I tell her that we will not be friends in any way whatsoever if we divorce, I am not joking. That is one thing that I am dead serious about and she has known that our whole relationship. That's why it's so hard for me to understand why she doesn't seem to believe it. I guess it's because I have been so "doormatty" on many other things up till this point.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/30/12 06:54 PM
I also have a very difficult time with the fact that I am having to compete for my wife. Difficult because I have NEVER been the kind of guy that was interested in chasing a woman. The way I have always viewed that is that if a woman doesn't want to be with me then I'm not gonn chase her to try and convince her to want to be with me. This is making it very difficult for me to follow through with many of the things I need to do here. I'm having to fight my urge to just tell her "if you dont want me then get the heck out of here and I'll find someone else."

This situation is different in the respect that we have kids, have been married for years, have built a great life together and love each other under all this extra crap that's going on.

Not that any of those traits are excuses for me not staying on track but maybe it will explain ONE reason why this has been difficult for me to deal with.

Not making excuses...just explaining my personality a little.
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/31/12 03:32 AM
That may be a big part of your problem, Looking. Women want a man to chase them. If OM is doing that alpha male, chase her down, romance her thing - you've got to compete with that, show her you can and will. (NO EXCUSE for what she's doing - not even suggesting that. But if YOU want to save your marriage, change what is within your power). I would guess your wife needs to see more of that in your marriage, and that may have contributed to a weak spot that allowed the A to sneak in in the first place.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/31/12 03:37 AM
Point taken, rainy.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/31/12 03:44 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I also have a very difficult time with the fact that I am having to compete for my wife. Difficult because I have NEVER been the kind of guy that was interested in chasing a woman. The way I have always viewed that is that if a woman doesn't want to be with me then I'm not gonn chase her to try and convince her to want to be with me. This is making it very difficult for me to follow through with many of the things I need to do here. I'm having to fight my urge to just tell her "if you dont want me then get the heck out of here and I'll find someone else."

This situation is different in the respect that we have kids, have been married for years, have built a great life together and love each other under all this extra crap that's going on.

Not that any of those traits are excuses for me not staying on track but maybe it will explain ONE reason why this has been difficult for me to deal with.

Not making excuses...just explaining my personality a little.

Yes, you are competing. And your personality type is one that wants to save his marriage. So you have to work SMART and not hard and put aside your usual tactics. Your usual tactics will not work. And yes, she doesn't want you right now and yes, she has gotten out of there!

You must be STRATEGIC rather than emotional if you want to beat the OM. See, he has no plan! You do! That gives you an advantage he doesn't have if you would just play it smart.

Everytime you feel like lovebusting her, just remind yourself that doing so makes the OM look good! Ask yourself whose side you are on...
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/31/12 03:47 AM
Tomorrow is my counter file day. It will be a difficult day for me on one hand. On the other hand though I'm ready to start showing my hand in this fight more than I have up until this point so her and the POSOM know that I'm serious and will not let this go without a fight.

I also plan to put everything I have into Plan A'ing even though I have a difficult time due to personality traits and whatnot doing it in light of her behavior toward me. I'm gonna try to put what I would normally do aside and Plan A the best I can. Again, I may be too late but I have nothing to lose now anyway.

Once I do file and she gets the paperwork, I think i remember y'all telling me that I need to not discuss what is in my counter file when she calls me, right? I just need to tell her that the lawyers will work that stuff out but I'm willing to talk about repairing our marriage. I dont need to go into any detail or explanations about anything in the filing.

I wanted to throw that out there to be sure I am clear on what my duties are after I file tomorrow. I'm going to try to get some sleep now so I'll check back tomorrow for guidance.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/31/12 03:53 AM
I gotcha Mel. I do.

Most everything I'm having to do here goes against my normal ways of doing things but I DO want to try to save my marriage. I'll do my best to be more strategic and smarter in my approach/tactics.

Again, it may be too late (hopefully not) because I have screwed up so much of the plans that I have been given so far but I'm still gonna try until the judge's gavel drops. If it does turn out that I "lose the battle" because I haven't been a strict follower then I will have to take full responsibility for that.

I am STILL holding out some hope as hard as that is becomming to do...
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/31/12 04:01 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Most everything I'm having to do here goes against my normal ways of doing things but I DO want to try to save my marriage. I'll do my best to be more strategic and smarter in my approach/tactics.

Good man! I know how hard this is for you! But I also know you can do it. You can be strategic if it will help you save your marriage. You will do fine.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/31/12 04:54 AM
I am rooting for ya big guy! Keep your chin up!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/31/12 02:41 PM
My stomach is tied in knots this morning because I know in a few hours I'll be counter filing for divorce. I never thought I would be here.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/31/12 05:21 PM
Going into lawyer's office.

Heart is breaking to have to do this, but I MUST!

Praying for strength....
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/31/12 06:58 PM
Thank Goodness! You've drug your feet long enough!

I regret that I haven't paid much attention to your thread.
But lordy! What exactly is your idea of Plan A LFH??

(It appears to be not getting mad at her, and accepting her phone calls.)

That is NO WAY to sweep a woman off her feet!

What are her top emotional needs?
What was it like when you first started dating?
What are the best activities you did together?
When is the last time you spent time together (just you and her!)?

Plan A is supposed to demonstrate to her that YOU are the man who can best provide for all of her needs. I've read through your whole thread -- and I am not seeing any proactive measures of COURTING HER. You just seem to be in "stay out of her way" mode.

Its completely clear that she is still involved with him.
She's just gotten better at hiding it. Your first mistake is believing ANYTHING OM had to say. You think just because you talked to him, and he said he wanted nothing to do with her -- that he told you the truth?????? Why would he confide in you?
Lying is a way of life for him, and I promise that YOU are the last person he would be honest with...

She is addicted. She will do anything to preserve her addiction.
She is being friendly and nice just so you won't squirm so much while she destroys your family. She's trying to keep you on an even keel so she can manipulate you into cooperating with the divorce.

My opinion is you need to do MORE carrot and MORE stick!
You haven't done enough of either!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/31/12 07:17 PM
Lexxxy,

I admit that you're mostly right. The biggest hurdle for my Plan A is that we are separated and she wants nothing to do with me except when she wants or needs something. So it doesn't leave me many opportunities to do anything.

The only "conversation" sessions we have that dont always end in an argument are via email. Kinda hard to court via email.

I do agree that I have pretty much obliterated Plan A up until today. I have just had a hard time with it. She has hurt me so bad and I'm so angry with her it's beed hard for me to be nice to her.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/31/12 07:31 PM
Now that all this legal crap is thrown into the mix, Plan A'ing is gonn be even more awkward.

I mean, how do I court her and such one minute and the next minute I'm telling her that my lawyer said "blah blah blah"?

Isn't that counter productive? I'm gonna do it for sure but it sure does seem that way.
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/31/12 07:35 PM
I do understand.
But Melody has advised you well -- avoiding confrontation (like not contradicting her when she rambles on with her version of your break-up) actually DIMINISHES you in her eyes.

She has to RESPECT you before she will LOVE you.

And letting her walk all over you has harmed your case greatly.

Don't EVER let her think you agree with her twisted version of the story. She's been pretty free to do damage control after your exposure, hasn't she? How many people still believe that she is divorcing you because she is involved with OM? Or do they know believe her watered down version of not "feeling in love" anymore? And sadly, I bet she's told lots of people YOU AGREE WITH HER!

Counterfiling and bringing CURRENT pressure against the affair is the very best thing you could do for yourself today.

Plan A is not about being nice to her.


Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/31/12 07:40 PM
You will not be discussing the divorce with her AT ALL.
If she brings up ANY legal issue, you deflect that to your attorney. Have a few canned phrases ready "I will discuss with my attorney" "My attorney will handle that" etc.
Deflect ALL of her questions regarding divorce that way. Give her NO glimpse of your legal strategies.

In the meantime....answer the previous questions:
What are her top emotional needs? (how did that weasal infiltrate your marriage?)
What did you do on dates before you were married?
What recreational activities do you share?

Let her know you will fight for her.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/31/12 07:48 PM
Lexxxy,

I'm on my way to pick up my babies. I definitely want to answer your questions and will do so once I get home shortly. I value what you have to say so please check back in a little while if you can.
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/31/12 07:51 PM
Have you identified her top emotional needs?

Affection
Sexual Fulfillment
Conversation
Recreational Companionship
Honesty and Openness
Physical Attractiveness
Financial Support
Domestic Support
Family Commitment
Admiration


Just try to focus on the top 3.
You'll have to make an educated guess, because she is not open to having you make love-bank deposits.
Where did OM get his hooks in?

Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/31/12 08:08 PM
She actually filled out the EN questionnaire before everything went WAY south. So I'll check that out when I get home.

The POSOM is actually her highschool sweetheart. They actually were married for a month until he cheated on her (as best I can gather) then she divorced him.
Posted By: TryingEverything Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/31/12 09:27 PM
Don't give up LFH.

I've only skimmed through your thread, but you've come a long way from complete and utter denial.

Does your lawyer think you can get custody if it goes to D? Can you get her to pay you child support? I'm sure OM is not going to want to pay you child support if they get married.

Have you secured your finances? Make sure she doesn't drain your checking/savings accounts. What about joint credit cards? Who's paying all the bills now?

Protect yourself. Protect your kids. Plan A.

Save all evidence. Print all evidence.
Posted By: MrNiceGuy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 05/31/12 09:28 PM
LFH .. im just going to regergitate one of my old posts to you... along with that remind her that things DONT have to be like this . that you KNOW how to fix the marriage now .. that she CAN fall in love again with a bit of time and work regardless ofthe pending divorce. REMIND her that this is NOT what you want.. that you want a Loving and fulfilling and successful marriage with her where you BOTH get your needs met and fall in love again.



Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
LFH ... put it this way. You have already lost your wife. Your letter outlines your boundires for her return if SHE wants to agree to them. If not .. thats HER loss because your a NEW man now and forever and you KNOW what went wrong and how to fix it now.

You need to show her that YOU are the great catch (like you did when you courted her before you married) .. YOU have the back bone .. and YOU have too much respect for your self to put up with her antics and games. Do not give her any of your energy when she comes down on you about the past negative things .. you just state "Yeah .. well .. I am not like that anymore".

Make it CLEAR that you realize what went wrong in your marriage own your part of its demise .. and how it happened and your own contribution and that you will NO LONGER be that guy anymore ... you are a NEW MAN .. you have NEW BOUNDRIES and NEW SELF RESPECT and your happiness does NOT depend on your wife being in your life.(women are meant to be a part of our lives and contribute to the amplification of happiness but not the end all be all of your happiness) If you place too much reliance of your happiness on your wife then she will not respect you and this will drive her away. LEAD BY EXAMPLE.


You dont have time to jump every time she asks you (be pleasant but firm in everything) .. nor do you have time to play her mind games. State your conditions (which you did in the letter) .. tell her you wish to spend the rest of your life with her and your kids as a family and grow together and recover your love you once had and make it even better now that you have a new understanding and some great tools (marriage builders) to make sure that your marriage is fulfilling in the future and that you will be sad that she chooses not to recover but you will get on with life if she chooses not to be a part of yours.

Kill your desperation ... if you project ANY of that at all .. you have to get rid of it. Its weakness and she will use it against you.

Do not let your wifes mood effect yours ... Moods are infectious so make your mood (a positive one) more powerful than hers. Example of infectious moods? Ever notice how when somebody says something, and everybody else laughs, even if you don't think its funny, you often laugh too? Happiness spreads. If you act like you are always having a good time, laughing at jokes, etc. it will instantly put all the people around you into a good mood.

Likewise, if you are always down and depressed (i know .. its hard sometimes to beat off the depression due to your situation), people will want to AVOID being around you (including your wife), because your mood drags theirs down too. This is why i suggested you do things for yourself to keep yourself more positive (working out .. doing things with your kids etc). your wife will sense this and possibly realize hat she is missing out on by not giving you another chance.

Something else you could do is find out what it is she likes about the POSOM and be better at doing those things than he is ...

Keep fighting the good fight! But do not drop your self respect to be a doormat.

MNG
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 06/01/12 01:06 AM
Lexxxy,

Don't know if you're still online or not but her top three ENs are

1. Conversation
2. Openness and Honesty
3. Affection

Lawyer visit was disappointing. I was told that if I asked for full physical custody, the courts would most likely see that as I was trying to punish WW and would be LESS likely to award in my favor. But that doesn't mean that I can't push for close to full during mediation or hearings. I made sure of that.

I will be subpoena-ing hers AND the POSOM's everything, basically. Their bank records, cellphone records, FB accounts, etc., to legally prove the affair and to drag it back out into the open. I talked with the lawyer about this and there doesn't seem to be any problems doing that. I hope doing that will send the POSOM packing and maybe he will tell her to buzz off in the process. All the better for me.

I was told that she would probably get the papers around the middle of next week.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 06/01/12 01:16 AM
I started Plan A'ing first thing this morning. I sent her a simple email that said "good morning and hope you have a good day."

She actually emailed back and told me to do the same.

It's kinda weird (maybe not to y'all) but kinda makes sense that it seems like the nicer I am to her, the nicer she is to me. The problem I have when she does that is that I don't believe she's being sincere or genuine. I feel kinda like she sees me being nice and she automatically says "yay...another chance to walk all over him, so I'll be nice back and get what I want."

But, like I said before, I just have pretty much no trust in her at all right now that I just can't believe that she's being true.

Like this afternoon after I picked up the kids from school and was on the way home. She got behind me on the road coming home. Well, when we go to the point where she would turn to go to her sister's house I stuck my hand out the window and waved. She waved back.

Well, that wasn't so out of the ordinary. A couple hours after I got home and was feeding the kids she called. She needed help again with filling out her financial aid for college. That's something I've always done for her when I would do mine. Well I helped her gather all the info she needed and get everything entered....(Plan A'ing). She thanked me and I told her she was very welcome and we hung up.

I know I have a long-standing habit of over analyzing things but I just don't know what to make of it when she calls like that to ask for help. If I were ready to file for divorce (to begin the divorce, not to react to a filing) I wouldn't ask her for help if she was the last person on the planet.

Is that just because of my personality or would anyone else react like I would?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 06/01/12 01:59 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Lexxxy,

Don't know if you're still online or not but her top three ENs are

1. Conversation
2. Openness and Honesty
3. Affection

lfh, she likely won't allow you to meet her needs since she is getting them met elsewhere, but the EN's you focus on are the top 4 intimate emotional needs. Conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. You may be able to meet her need for conversation if you remain as pleasant as possible. Success in that area could lead to the others. THOSE 4 needs are the ones that create romantic and that is where your focus should lie.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 06/01/12 02:04 AM
I can do the conversation. I've been "pep-talking" myself all day today.

I do ok until I get "triggered". Once that happens it becomes more difficult. When I say "triggered" I mean come across something that either brings me down or angers me. I seem to be becoming more and more easily discouraged lately. I guess that's normal after such a long and non-productive battle.
Posted By: rainysweet Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 06/01/12 02:32 AM
What if you focused on doing just one sweet thing for her every day? One simple thing to show her you love her - a 60 second phone call where you share a joke or something the children did, something that reminded you of her, or you send her a photo or an inspiring poem - anything. Not big. Small.

Could you do one thing, and then let go and worry about yourself and your children for the rest of the day? If she gives you another opportunity to show love - like asking for help - and it works for you, great. If not, that's okay.

Picture her as a 2-year-old, or drunk off her butt, or anything that helps you realize you don't need to make sense of her. There's no sense to be made. Then just go on with your life, your day - interject one loving thing in there, and that's it. At the end of the day you can say, "What did I do to show love to my wife today?" Regardless of her behavior.

Just a thought.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 06/01/12 02:48 AM
Rainy,

That doesn't sound like a bad idea or too difficult to do. I may try to do that for a few days to a week and see how it goes.

Great suggestion. Thank you.

I will have to say that I'm kind of anxious (in a curious way though) to see how she is going to react when she does get my counter file.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 06/01/12 02:51 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Well, that wasn't so out of the ordinary. A couple hours after I got home and was feeding the kids she called. She needed help again with filling out her financial aid for college. That's something I've always done for her when I would do mine. Well I helped her gather all the info she needed and get everything entered....(Plan A'ing). She thanked me and I told her she was very welcome and we hung up.

That was PERFECT Plan-Aing! When she asks for help like that, you can step up to the plate and do something for her the OM can't. You look good in comparison. smile
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 06/01/12 02:53 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I do ok until I get "triggered". Once that happens it becomes more difficult. When I say "triggered" I mean come across something that either brings me down or angers me. I seem to be becoming more and more easily discouraged lately. I guess that's normal after such a long and non-productive battle.

You need to manage yourself when you feel like that by saying: "if I give into my anger, I am making the OM look good!"

Do you usually have problems managing your anger?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 06/01/12 02:59 AM
Mel,

No not at all. It seems that the way she is behaving toward me and the hurt she has caused has created the anger I have toward her right now. I REALLY feel like it's ALL caused by the tremendous and overwhelming hurt.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 06/01/12 03:02 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Mel,

No not at all. It seems that the way she is behaving toward me and the hurt she has caused has created the anger I have toward her right now. I REALLY feel like it's ALL caused by the tremendous and overwhelming hurt.

ok, just keep in mind that you have full control over your anger. And now is the time to practice that control. You need to keep your emotions under control and be STRATEGIC.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 06/01/12 03:08 AM
What is so dang ironically funny is that part of the "issue" that led to her so-called "unhappiness" which of course led to her affair, is the fact that I have never been a very outward emotional person...according to her.

I have always lived by logical and rational thinking over emotional "thinking". Well now, it seems that I can't seem to control my emotional side and can't find my logical and rational side.

This situation is making me crazy!

Nonetheless, I can concentrate on doing better with these things. I need to get back to my pre-affair mindset where I rule my actions with logic and rational thinking.

On the other side of that though...I believe WW is letting her emotionally side COMPLETELY rule her life right now and she just absolutely will not allow her logical or rational sides to even see the light of day.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 06/01/12 03:29 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
On the other side of that though...I believe WW is letting her emotionally side COMPLETELY rule her life right now and she just absolutely will not allow her logical or rational sides to even see the light of day.

Yes, you are exactly right. That is why trying to reason with a wayward is like reasoning with a falling down drunk! It goes nowhere... crazy
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 06/01/12 03:36 AM
One more thought before bed...

This process feels so unnatural. What I mean is that I'm gonna be pleasant and nice to her by doing or saying something every opportunity I get but in the background I'm gonna be putting my lawyers to work on her and the POSOM.

I understand the general idea but it does seem a little weird to be nice and sweet to her face yet be lawyering up behind the scenes.

Anyway, just my final thought for the night. I haven't been sleeping but about 4 to 5 hours per night so I need to get to bed.

I never thought I would be going to bed with the weight of filing for divorce against this woman. Never in a million years would I have ever thought I would be where I am right now with her....never in a million years.

Good night friends.
Posted By: Viper Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 06/01/12 03:37 AM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I will have to say that I'm kind of anxious (in a curious way though) to see how she is going to react when she does get my counter file.
If it were me I would be more curious and anxious about what POSOM's reaction will be. When he sees the truth crapstorm you're getting ready to lay in his lap it should get awfully interesting.

I'm betting he wasn't counting on all this.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 06/01/12 03:39 AM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
[quote=looking_for_help]

Yes, you are exactly right. That is why trying to reason with a wayward is like reasoning with a falling down drunk! It goes nowhere... crazy

Gosh, I've definitely learned that one the hard way!

Seems that some people (me) just won't listen to what they're being told sometimes huh?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 06/01/12 03:43 AM
Tiger,

I do have to say that I am sooooooo looking forward to seeing or hearing his reaction. I think that will probably be the highlight of the past 4 months or so of my life....besides watching my 5 month old learn to sit up by herself!!

I'm also sooooo hoping that he will tell WW that "it ain't worth all this" or in any other terms would be fine as well.
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 06/01/12 12:25 PM
I have this eerie sort of calm or rejuvenation or empowerment or something this morning. Now, that could dissipate in an hour but right now I feel kind of weird in that I don't feel like all is lost or maybe that if all is lost, that I have some control back in my life.

Again, I know my emotions have been from one extreme to the other within a matter of hours lately so hopefully this will stay.
Posted By: NeverGuessed Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 06/01/12 02:08 PM
Making a plan, following the plan, and seeing the results play out as expected....

If you "google" that, I think you'll find it as defining having some control back in one's life.

Whatever the end result, LFH, this is exactly what you should be doing.

As for the conflict you occasionally feel: This is where the big boys stand tallest. Plan A when she's an angel; Plan A when she's a [censored]. When she's something in-between, Plan A. You Plan A with no expectations, and no "measurements". You Plan A without consideration of fairness or equality. (The only relief to scream, vent, or rant, is here!)

Can you do that?
Posted By: Lexxxy Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 06/01/12 03:15 PM
Another EN that you have an advantage on is FAMILY COMMITMENT!

So -- can you include her in some family outings?
Invite her to go to the zoo as a family this weekend?
Any graduation parties to attend as a family?
Just reach out.

Did you have your 5 month old baptized yet? Maybe start planning and discussing that event? -- would really make some deposits!

You have a PLAN sir! You are depositing as many lovebank deposits as you can. And you have Plan B in your back pocket whenever it all gets to be too much. You should feel good about what is coming!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 06/01/12 04:49 PM
I'm getting MUCH better with the emotional roller coaster but it hasn't subsided completely, which I know that may take quite a while if ever.

I get these "waves" of total despair, hurt and heartache that just bring me to rock bottom for a spell. Something triggers the thoughts of the void that is now in my life and I just go downhill to the point of tears within probably an hour of onset.

Are there any combative tactics that anyone can share that might help with this. I felt pretty good and more in control than I have in a while this morning. But about an hour before lunch I started "feeling" it coming on. I went to lunch and had to go to the park and eat because I was so upset I started crying again.

I know nothing is going to cure this but time and I am getting much better with these "attacks", but how did any of you deal with this besides medication (which I am contemplating)?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 06/01/12 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
Are there any combative tactics that anyone can share that might help with this. I felt pretty good and more in control than I have in a while this morning. But about an hour before lunch I started "feeling" it coming on. I went to lunch and had to go to the park and eat because I was so upset I started crying again.

What helped me the most was strenuous exercise every day along with Omega 3 supplements. Anti-depressants are helpful to many people, but I got no relief from them. I got great relief from exercise and O3, though.

If this gets too tough, you really should consider going into Plan B. Plan B is a complete and total separation where you have no contact with her at all. It is hard for about 10 days to 2 weeks but after that, you will start feeling enormous relief because the trigger is removed. I suspect you might be better off going into Plan B sooner than most.

Do you have the book Surviving an Affair?
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 06/01/12 05:15 PM
I know Plan A is two-fold.

One fold is to attract her back to me and make myself look more desirable than the POSOM.

The other fold is to help me basically learn to be happy and live without her.

The second fold is giving me a whole lot more trouble than I ever thought it would. I know a person shouldn't NEED to have someone else in their life to be happy but I guess I happen to be more dependent on that companionship than the average guy. I know this may be viewed as a weakness, but I am what I am. I have always been the type of person that wants to share life with someone.

Now, my best friend could really care less if he encounters another human being in regards to companionship (life-long...not nightly...if you know what I mean) for the rest of his life. I'm just not like that.

I think this is another reason why I am having such a very tough time with this emotional roller coaster.

I'm still on track. Plan A'ing every opportunity I get and honestly looking forward to the paperwork delivery date. I am very interested in the reaction. Lawyer and I are also planning to subpoena her and the POSOM's "everything". THAT's what I can't wait for. Since I can't contact him myself, I'm gonna let the legal system do it for me.

Nothing like POSOM hunting!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 06/01/12 06:11 PM
Mel,

I do have that book. I've already read it once but have been trying to read it again.

Plan B is an option but I think it will be VERY difficult for us to do with a 2yr old and a 5 month old. We are in communication almost daily with them about something. I want to hold out on that as long as I can. At least until after she gets my counter file and maybe even after we subpoena her and the POSOM.

As for the triggers....I know you know this but my triggers are not only contact with her. They range from a song to a thought about the past to a thought about the future to the thought of trying to find someone else to be with. Honestly, everything in my daily life in some way makes me think about her because she (the real she) and my kids have been what I have lived for.

She has no idea about how the changes that I have made with myself have made me more of the person she has always wanted because she has not given me a chance. She just made the executive decision to leave.

But, if she never decides to come back and do the right thing by giving her marriage and family the second chance it should have, some other lady will be the recipient of everything they have always wanted. I will make sure of that!
Posted By: recurring_pain Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 06/01/12 06:24 PM
I liked the idea of the simple quotes or poems via email being something to try to do each day.

My question is what type of content should I stay away from? Should I look for something that is simple but shows I love her, care about her, know relationships are hard, etc., or should I stick with more generic content? I know to stay away from desperation or grovelling. But should I convey the message that love remains and things like that?

Just looking for opinions.
Posted By: 20YearHistory Re: Fulfill Her Needs or Back Off? - 06/01/12 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by looking_for_help
I'm getting MUCH better with the emotional roller coaster but it hasn't subsided completely, which I know that may take quite a while if ever.

I get these "waves" of total despair, hurt and heartache that just bring me to rock bottom for a spell. Something triggers the thoughts of the void that is now in my life and I just g