Phoenix, I think you could benefit from taking a look at Joe's thread here:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2626998#Post2626998

I think the advice Joe received is very apropos for you, as well. In fact, you guys might even be able to encourage each other as you work the plan.

You are driving your wife nuts telling her you want to find a way to make things work. Stop it! Marriage Builders is a way to make things work. Show her you know how to make things work, by beginning to follow this plan. Deposit love units, and avoid love busters.

You do not require a commitment from her to do that. You just do it. We can help you if you post about your attempts here and listen to our feedback.


She is offering you a chance to win her back. Quit talking about it, and start doing it.

What are you doing to try to meet her emotional needs?

Correction. You could have, but you chose not to.

Please read Pepperband's lovely essay on "locus of control":
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2555478#Post2555478


Yes, but that's a separate problem. Don't blend your problems together, or you will lose the benefit of focused, effective solutions.

Problem #1 is that your wife is not in love with you. Trust me on this.
You will find that in taking the actions to rectify problem #1, you will DO things of value, and then you will begin to feel value. You will also find that eventually your wife treats you with value, as well.


I am sure there were. AFTER you have followed this program and she is in a state of Intimacy with you, she will care about changing her behavior to more healthy marital patterns (meeting your emotional needs and avoiding love busters).


Wrong approach.

The root is that everybody has a Giver and a Taker, and that if we follow our instincts these two will destroy us and our relationships. Instead you will need to follow a new rule that makes peace between your Giver and Taker and your wife's Giver and Taker.


Good, then you won't mind if we start asking you lots of questions, and you'll answer them all. I've already seen you take some steps toward this. But I think you have a ways to go.


That is a horrible sentence construct.

Please do your homework and find out what Dr. Harley says about this! If we have to spoonfeed you everything, you are never going to make it.


Yeah, me too.

Solution: just compensation. Give her the marriage she always deserved. First of all, never do it again.

Moaning for the rest of your life that you are a sex addict is not a productive step toward never doing it again, by the way.

Phoenix, have you read the Basic Concepts on this site?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3000_intro.html

Pay special attention to:
How Dr. Harley Learned to Save Marriages
The Giver & Taker
Three States of Mind in Marriage
Intimacy
Conflict
Withdrawal
How One Spouse Can Lead the Other Back to Intimacy

Phoenix, I asked you last week if you have this book, and you never answered.

If you will answer our questions, we can help you through the steps you need to take to recover your marriage.

Do you have this book? And have you read the Basic Concepts?

Phoenix, it is my opinion that if you try to put your marriage on hold while you complete therapy for sex addiction, your marriage will die.

It is my opinion that you need to make Marriage Builders the core of what you are doing and let any outside therapy like sex addiction therapy support it, not the other way around.

Phoenix,

Have you thought about emailing Dr. Harley?

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com

BTW I bought the book 3 days ago...it should arrive today or tommorow!

Last night was the first night of my recovery group. Its a 20 week program. Met with 9 other men going through simliar battles...

Last night I met my wife after my group and help put the kids to bed and helped her clean up the house and then sat on the coach some and watched TV with her and let her "yell" at me and tell me how mad she was at me. I just wanted her to not feel alone and be able to let her anger out then give her space. Around 10:45 I drove 20 min to my mom's house.

I got yelled at for "snooping". The last time when went through stuff she had her EA and I saw the start of one and felt like I had to put the brakes on it before it got out of hand...unfortunatly it crosses a huge boundry for her.

I've read the basic concepts on this site about a love bank and actually last night after a messy day...i prayed that God would give me a chance to make a deposit and made a small one last night by just helping her around the house. Probably a one penny deposit against a bankrupt account but at least it was a start.

Today I accomplished removing the vast majority of female contacts off my Facebook account. My words mean jack squat...but don't need any temptation/distractions!

Good on getting rid of the female facebook friends. What about asking BW to have a joint account and so there is complete transparency?

Also when she is "yelling" at you do you tell her you do not like that and ask her to that you would appreciate it if she would talk to you civil?

Because you did wrong does not mean she gets a free card to abuse you.

Also on the snooping you tell her you are still married and will do whatever it takes to protect your M.

Did you move back home?

I stayed the night at the house last night. Everytime I try and stand up for myself she says "Here comes the old you back...I knew he would come back...this is the you the I hate". Ever since her EA back in the winter she has had a very very strong sense of entitlement. Here is a typical day in my life after her EA.

I get up about 6 for work. Kids wake up between 6:30-7. I get myself ready and make the kids breakfast...I make the older 2 lunch for school and pack their lunch. Around 7:15 my wife would come downstairs. I would leave for work about 7:30. She would spend most of her day on Facebook and doing photography stuff while the kids watch TV. I get home around 5:30 from work and she leaves to take one of the kids to an activity. I clean up the kitchen and do all the dishes that are in the sink from the day. I make dinner and feed the kids and myself. On the days my wife isn't off at an activity with the kids she eats dinner on the couch in the family room while watching TV and playing on Facebook. (I am with the kids while I eat). I keep cleaning stuff up and hang out with the kids. Around 8 I take the kids upstairs (even when she is home) and get them ready for bed. Sometimes she would come up and help other times she was on her computer. After putting the kids to bed she "had" to be on her computer to do school work, facebook stuff, and photography until it was bedtime. During this time she told me I needed to do laundry, write her papers for school, or I needed to run out to the store. I would sit on the couch try and talk to her some but she was more concerned with her computer. (After her EA I snooped like crazy and am 99.999% sure it was not another EA....but her escape to get "praise on facebook". She would post how amazing of a mom she was and how she was getting great grades in school and doing all these amazing things. (keep in mind I did about 1/2 her school work for her). On the weekends I would help her get ready for photoshoots or she would go out with her friends or mom for lunch and told me I needed to have the house clean by the time she got back. If I missed cleaning something or she walked in the door before I had a chance to clean up from lunch I got yelled at and was told how disrespectful it was to her because I knew it was important. Cleaning up after 4 kids is more than a full time job...Never once in our marriage did I get mad the house was a mess when I got home from work. It was the expectation that the house would be spotless though if she was gone for any length of time. My normal life is filled with cutting remarks from her and anytime I stand up for myself I am told I have "thin skin". Everything from my driving, to not putting a black shirt in the right "colored laundry pile". She would make it quite clear how mad she was if I put a shirt in the wrong pile. She wouldn't fix it. She would tell me to "come here" and then point out how I can't put laundry this way and tell me to fix it. I've been the type of person that if something like a shirt is in the wrong pile...I move it. no big deal. If I ever did anything she thought wasn't normal...like walk around the house and pick a few things up that were left out or wash the kid's trash can out. She would tell me I was "Weird" and I had to stop being "weird".

Our marriage has been very 1 dimensional. I give and she takes. I stopped asking her to do anything because she always said no. However I am asked or told to do many things during the day. Her mom and some of our friends have made the following comments. "She treats you like crap and doesn't care who sees it. But I am not going to tell you that Your wife treats you like crap its not my place". I want to make something quite clear to everyone. My mistakes are MY FAULT. I own those. Those were behaviors and choices I made. I could have and should have done the right thing.

That being said...my counselor has told me that daily cut downs and being treated like a servant are border line emotionally abusive and might be a strong reason why you felt like you had to escape your reality into unhealthy and sinful activities. He told me that a divorce might be more healthy for me than staying married. I can't make my wife stay..I can only show her love and that I want this to work. However she is not the type of person who wants to change because she doesn't see anything wrong with how she treats me or what she says. I know I have to change for me...but a big part of me is trying to figure out if marriage is even healthy for me given how she has treated me over the past year. (She has always wanted to be in control even before we were going through everything there wasn't ever much giving on her end).

Last night she wanted me to leave and go to my mom's and I told her I wanted to stay here and focus on my recovery work. I went up to my room and she came in to tell me that she can't sleep when I am home and it makes her uncomfortable...etc. I told her I have no desire to come in her room or do anything other than close my door and do my work. I told her I feel like I am completely beaten down....her reply was "Good you should feel that way". After all of this I am starting to feel hatered and resentment building and replacing the love I once had for her.

While I am thinking about it, Phoenix, here is Dr. Harley's article on sexual addiction:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8120_sex_addiction.html

Great. Run through it as soon as it arrives!


Okay, what is your plan for the next deposit? If you make NO LOVEBUSTERS AT ALL, she will eventually become more and more willing for you to make larger and larger deposits. In order to save your marriage, you must have a habit of making massive Love Bank deposits every single day. So you need a plan. What's next?

That has happened to nearly every betrayed husband on this site. It is the fog that Dr. Harley talks about. Have you read about the fog?

The solution is to quietly do what you need to do and to not argue about it.


What do you mean "stand up for yourself"? You should not be arguing with her, ever. Arguments are like nuclear war, Phoenix. You are not going to rise from the ashes if you drop nuclear bombs every time something goes wrong.

Let us teach you how to not have an argument.

What do you SAY when you "stand up for yourself"?


Then there shouldn't be a problem. You simply say, "I'm sorry, Honey. I'll be happy to learn how to get the laundry into the piles you like them in."

As you, it's no big deal. This is not something to "stand up for yourself" over. It's just laundry. Form a new habit. In fact, Dr. Harley would suggest that you should practice. Pick a five minute daily time slot and take your shirt off TEN TIMES and put it in the right laundry pile, putting it right back on afterward. When you are done taking off your laundry each day, ask your wife to see if you missed anything.

IF you are able to win her back to her marriage, THEN she will become willing to address her disrespect. She's not willing now.

The solution is to make the changes your wife needs and build a permanent habit of making massive love bank deposits, until your wife falls in love with you, and then afterward to get her to adopt the agreements that will lead to her taking care of you, and lasting love in your marriage. Happens all the time around here, and we can help you through it.


These people are not helping your marriage! It would be disrespectful for you to say these things about your wife. You need to not listen to people who talk disrespectfully about your wife.


In a healthy marriage, husband and wife escape TOGETHER. Not into sinful activities, but into recreation, conversation, affection, and sex together. Needing to escape is normal, and this kind of navel-gazing with your therapist is not going to restore love in your marriage.


Goodness, if you want a divorce, go get one. You don't need your therapist to give you an excuse for something anyone in America can legally obtain. The fact is that married people tend to be healthier than single people, however.


Well, of course you can't make your wife stay! You knew that already, right?

It sounds like you had quite the venting session with your therapist. Doesn't sound like it was very productive, other than to reinforce what your emotions are telling you to do when you are upset, which may not be the best thing for you.


You shouldn't have engaged with this. Don't tell her you are beaten down. It's not going to motivate her to lift you up. You can only do that by changing to become someone that it is worth it for her to stay with.


Quit picking fights with her, because that will always be the result!

I have to echo waht Brainy said above.
Once you truly understand the importance of MB principles like eliminating LB's and meeting each other's EN's you not only model your own life for those things but you don't TOLERATE less from others. You would never allow someone to "yell" at you. You would respectfully request (not disrespectfully demand) that they refrain from speaking to you in such a tone, or you'll have to leave until they can talk to you with respect. [they won't like it, by the way. I remember trying that with my ex once and being called a whole NEW set of names, like "juvenile" and "cowardly"...]

I don't necessarily agree with the counselor that said you might have to divorce because of the situation. Marriages way worse than yours have been saved (apparently not by your counsellor, though). But I do agree that you may have to remove yourself from this abusive situation at some point as it is very hard to think clearly when you are being verbally and emotionally beaten.

From my own situation, I know that when I was harboring deep secrets, I would tend to allow my now-ex ww to get away with doing things I would otherwise not tolerate because I had a view of myself that was not optimal. I felt like I deserved her punishment and I had no right to stand up for myself (since I was using porn, and flirting wth women without her knowledge)- I felt like I might be held accountable for my actions if I ever had the nerve to hold her accountable for hers. It becomes a downward spiral of behavior for both individuals.

LIfe is way different now. I don't have the angst that comes along with independent behavior, so I'm able to identify behaviors from other people that I find acceptable or not. And I know how to calmly remove myself from a situation if I feel it's unhealthy or unproductive.

There are a lot of positives that come with living positively.

opt

t/j:


Marcos, you are truly an indispensable genius and a true patriot of MB. I appreciate that and get a lot out of your posts on all different threads.

I simply couldn't let the above quote go, it is absolutely fantastic.

opt

by the way, pheonix, at some point, somehow, I believe you WILL rise from the ashes.

hehe, thank you opt. I like "patriot of MB." MB feels like my country and my culture.

Markos....first off THANK YOU! Your advice is completely opposite to what everyone is telling me.

I just read Dr. Hartley's article on Sex Addiction. Right now there are a lot of my actions that I think are "OK" that are love busters. Her privacy is very important to her. Talking about our problems with anyone is also a huge LB. As you can tell I do alot of talking and less doing.

When I stand up for myself is wrong. I use words like "You can't talk that way about me to the kids". "Thats disrespectful when you say things like that to me".

I have felt a tremdous amount of guilt when living in the shadows of my sin.

My wife told me today she has been crying all day. I offered to come home from work so she could hang out with a friend if she needed a break from the kids. I also told her I would watch the kids whenever she needed to set up an appointment with her counselor.

I have decided to not dicuss my issues with people who are giving me poor advice like showing my wife "tough love" or I need to stand up for myself. My first priority now is to find every chance to make love deposits no matter how small and figure out how to work on our communication/respect down the road.

Thank you for that comment. As you are probably well aware I chose that name for a very unique reason. I have done a great job of destroying my marriage...and my wife...and myself in the process. Today I am dead. One day I will rise. with 100% honesty I have very little hope so your tiny piece of hope you gave to me I am borrowing today.