Agree, Neak. There is a huge difference between someone who is trying and someone who is not. It's not difficult to tell the difference.

No, that is not what Dr. Harley says Plan B is.

The only reason I had trouble telling the difference at first, was because all I had seen to contrast with the abject cruelty of the A was the tepid, half-baked semi-efforts of a resentful WS.

Once AJ got serious, NOTHING would stop him from doing everything i asked for. Once I saw that difference, it all became crystal clear. I went from being a resented "probation officer" (his exact words), to a deeply cherished wife.

There's another problem with the concept of punishment, as well.

Dr. Harley covers punishment in chapter 5 of Love Busters.

Once AJ got serious, NOTHING would stop him from doing everything I asked for...I went from being a resented "probation officer", to a deeply cherished wife.

Neak, I think you are a great example for the concept I'm trying (evidently badly) to get across.

Now, what got AJ serious? I think what you said was that he failed at some minor EP issues. You chosen method of sanctioning him was to indicate your displeasure and decreasing patience with his performance. Would that be fair? Did it work? (Hah! We know the answer to that question. Congrats!)

You did NOT, I take it, jump to Plan B as AJ stumbled around orienting himself to his new reality, right? You moderated your reaction to the severity of his transgression, yes? What I am urging is that RH be applied a priori to any transgressions.

Markos, you said:

No, that (incenting the WS to effect the necessary changes) is not what Dr. Harley says Plan B is.

Well given that every plan must have a goal (or goals), I would say that the primary goal of Plan B is to present the non-conforming WS with a "scorched earth" view of what life is very likely to be between them if events take the likely course. The only option for WS would be to request through the IM what behaviors would have to be changed, and how, and demonstrate those changes. The alternative is that the WS might not be adequately dissuaded by the prospect to reform, and the marriage goes to dissolution. The secondary Plan B goal is to prevent additional damage to the BS, but Plan D immediately could do that.

If you believe that these are not the goals of Plan B, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

What I would like is for you to learn what Dr. Harley says is the primary goal of Plan B, rather than turning other people's threads into a sounding board for your thoughts and my thoughts. We don't have to reinvent the wheel, here.

I had everything lined up to go to Plan B a second time. I had the letter ready, and every bit of determination to make it succeed. The main reason I opted to hold off very temporarily on pulling the trigger was that he cried and begged for 4 hours solid, for me to give him one more chance to get it right, and had already started to take action to be accountable from the first moment he drove in the gate.

I gave him no encouragement whatsoever. Finally, with a face set like a stone, I agreed that I would not make him leave *quite* yet. But he had to show me, continuing immediately with his actions, that he was fully committed. And he did.

Whether I had to go through with implementing Plan B again or not is not the issue. The point is that I was ready, I was serious, and he knew it. By handing me the secret A-phone before he ever said a word, he showed me that he was beginning to be serious, too.

It's not that he was perfect after that. For example, he still feared the OW, and had the urge to appease her by not being willing that she should be fired from his company. (Fortunately, in a way, the company was already on the brink of disaster from his sloppy management in previous months, so there was no risk of any harassment charges sticking.) But upon being confronted about anything, AJ made an immediate effort to change. I never again had to even come close to Plan B, though I was always ready, just in case.

Because AJ realized at that point that I would have him leave and go dark on him in a heartbeat, he found the motivation within himself to become a changed individual. Most WS's that I've seen on here were not as responsive, and had to suffer a while before the motivation to avoid pain outgrew their motivation to cling to the remnants of the A.

Whether Plan B is actually implemented, or the WS escapes it by the skin of their teeth, the BS who is serious about ridding their lives of adultery has the best chance of having their WS join them in a true R.

If you are not in Congress, you should be, with that so succinctly politically polite response

He had failed at minor EP issues, yes. But then when my confrontations accomplished nothing except him feeling sorry for himself, it took less than two weeks before he was back in C with an A-phone to boot.

If I had been giving myself advice at that critical juncture, I would have told myself to go into Plan B as soon as it became obvious that he was whiny and resentful over what I had listed as the conditions for R. There was no need to let things go on long enough for C to resume, since he so clearly wasn't serious about R at that point.

A number of the good peeps here were already advising me to go into Plan B before I did, but at first I was so shell-shocked that even though my posts sounded normal, and like I was hearing them and responding to them, in reality I was incapable of coherent action.

Fortunately, I snapped out of my daze eventually, and donned the infamous Red Cape of Power. I've never been quite the same since.

The end result would have been the same, and I would have saved myself much needless grief and trauma, had I been willing to pull the plug when R had clearly stalled, rather than waiting around for the second time C resumed.

AJ got serious when I got serious.

I see a lot of speculation and unnecessary debate about the purpose and intent of very basic plans. I would ask that posters familiarize themselves with the concepts before posting to newcomers. This type of debate is unnecessary and confusing. Thank you for your cooperation.

Thanks for the 'Be Still' link. I REALLY needed that today.

We were texting each other while I was hiding out in our old neighborhood. Forgot about the GPS app we downloaded on our phones and he found me.

I wanted him to leave, this was my secret calm spot.

He professed he made a mistake, the FB argument was stupid. I said I want a joint facebook, full disclosure w/o hesitation, all free time together as UA to facilitate attachment, no unfair judgements, selfish demands or angry outbursts for either of us (I'm at fault, too) and no swearing at me anymore. He agreed to follow the program. Said he's been a fool.

He reminded me that he is about 2 weeks behind me in this process, as I wanted to recover our M right from the start. Today was the first time he admitted his A was just like the book said, Fog, Fantasy, not real love.

I just got paid today. I will contact MB tomorrow from work. We both never slept last night so we are turning in early.

I don't mind other topics/conversations on my thread. It's like a dinner party and I'm the host. There are several conversations going on at once and I think it's nice.

Indie girl, I can't kick him out. He has custody of his daughter and it is more reasonable that I leave. Don't worry, if the time comes I will turn on my heel and go. I am VERY GOOD about not looking back after I make a solid decision. I am resolute, if nothing else.

Sounds great. MB counselling is a fab idea.

A more remorseful attitude is nice, but nothing beats verifiable actions

What about transparency with passwords etc, proving honesty such as polygraph, accounting for his time ....

I have passwords to everything that *I know about*. The polygraph....I did not go there yet. We both account for time using GSP app on our phones. We are only at work without each other. All other time is together.

Just keep watching his attitude and actions. Chances are good you'll be able to tell quickly if he's still or back in contact. What you've described sounds promising, as long as he follows through.

We made lots of plans for this weekend. We are seriously lacking in RC.

Tonight we are having dinner at a restaurant on Lake Ontario and watching his buddy's band play after.

Tomorrow we are kayaking on same lake, later in evening watching another buddy's band play. Seen them, they are GOOD.

Sunday....he suggested attending a friends church. I jumped on that. We are going.

We have to make time for the EN Questionanire.

We each completed our EN questionnaire and he was less critical than I was. I was surprised. Evidently, I have exhibited behaviors that are now meeting his EN.

Aside from some obvious trust issues and insecurity on my part, we are doing a lot better. We spend ALL our free time together. We plan activities and go out together. We have great sex. Now we need to agree on which tool on MB we will use. I am shooting for the coaching, even though it's expensive.

His most important EN are: admiration, affection, SF, conversation and an attractive spouse.

He wants me to be more aggressive and initiate more for SF-I got a low grade on that. He said he gets enough, but wants me to be more pushy. I'm working on it.

I am also working on admiration. I need to compliment him more and express my appreciation of him in my life.

Lastly, I am working on my physical appearance. I have lost 30 pounds and have to lose 25 more to get into my healthy weight range. I ballooned up before being diagnosed with MS. I was once a runner, believe it or not and could eat whatever I wanted. I am going to try to run tomorrow. I am getting my hair done and letting it grow longer. I wear makeup every day and will be shopping WITH my FWH to get his review and approval on some cute dresses.

We have not discussed the EN questionnaire results yet. I also placed importance on affection and he needs to improve here. I always say I love you and initiate loving gestures first. He is aware that I feel this way. Also, honesty and openness. His lack of these got us here in the first place, I need him to improve on this so we can understand each other and move forward in recovery. Family Commitment-we need to do more as a family. The family bond has deteriorated while he was deep in his A.

My stepdaughter FINALLY admitted that our marital problems are bothering her. We reconciled and then swore divorce 4 separate times since 6/1. I'd like to mention that *I* have been the rock here. I wanted recovery every day since D-Day. It was him that called it off while in the fog. He took her out to dinner and explained the MB process to her, she was asking about the books and stuff.

So far, so good. We need to get moving on selecting the MB recovery plan mutually agreed upon. Maybe we wont be crazy busy and can focus on that.

I assume you and your husband had STD testing?

THE FIRST WEEK, MY FRIEND!!!!

He even got a confirmation in the mail that he was clear of all STD's.

My dr. office called me with the good news. No paper.

I have to say that things are a ocean-full better since my D-day. I feel more confident and comfortable navigating this. Thank God for this site and you people.

Lisa, this is great to hear! Has he stuck to all his EP's? It's a whole new way of life, not just doing a few things for the BS to help them feel better.

Good job meeting his EN's, too. EN's can be SO MUCH FUN!!!!!

Folks, can someone provide the link to the thread that gives coping mechanisms to stop mental movies???


I am struggling.

He is actually doing better than I am with this. I am Love Busting all over the place and I will be focusing my IC on developing a way to stop doing this.

He has been a dream with this process lately.

This is the hardest thing I ever had to do. Harder than dealing with my multiple sclerosis.