I do stay off it when I am with her, and it's something I have said hurts me a lot when I see her constant on it, make me get jealous n paranoid. I have asked her not to do it or wait till I have gone but then she tells me Ian been controlling

I misunderstood.
Good for you.
Use a light touch with a request like staying off the phone. Repeated too. Often it becomes a demand.
I have a similar issue with my w playing solitaire on her laptop, but I only bring it up occasionally.

- Yeah i only mention about it a couple of time, or i just leave the room instead.

Dave, try to keep your posts in one thread; it makes it easier to follow then.

You said your wife is going back and forth; sometimes you are encouraged by her responses and sometimes she seems cold and withdrawn again.

I think there are two possibilities here.

1) She may be slowly coming out of withdrawal and considering the possibility that you are a new man. When in withdrawal, no matter how much you try she will ignore your efforts and no LB deposits will be made. But if she is slowly coming out of withdrawal, then this is where you can make a difference. And you have to be consistent and persistent! Things that you do now (avoiding angry outbursts and selfish demands, being open and honest, etc), you have to make it a habit! You can't do these things and then as the relationship gets better slowly go back to old habits. Once she believes you may be changing, you have to show her all the way.

2) I don't want to make you paranoid, I really don't. But often when a WS is starting to warm up to you again, it may be because she has found a way to keep the OM in her life. "Having her cake and eating it too." Basically, she may be using the OM for some things (conversation, recreational companionship, sex) and you for other things. I know you are watching her already, but you may need to snoop even harder to make sure.

I know you want to believe you are out of plan A and in recovery, but you need to consider that she is still seeing the OM. I am concerned especially because when you tell her you don't like her texting, she gets defensive and says you are too controlling. This excuse is likely because she is trying to set up barriers to keep her other lifestyle with the OM active. That's the reason I feel you are not in recovery yet.

If texting bothers you, you can't make a selfish demand like, "Honey, please don't text when your with me." And you can't make a disrespectful judgement like, "Honey, you text too much." I believe the correct thing to say is, "Honey, I don't mean to be controlling, but I want you to know that when you are texting often, it makes me feel insecure, because I am worried that you might be still contacting the OM."

At this point she might agree to stop or try to find a way to reassure you. If she does that, then maybe you really are in recovery. However, if she gets more defensive still, "I told you I stopped contacting him!" "You worry too much" "I need my freedom!" "Don't you trust me?" If this is the case, you might need to snoop harder. And if she says these things, you need to avoid getting angry back. The fact is by mentioning you FEEL insecure, this is a statement that involves you alone. She cannot tell you how to feel. So tell her that. Calmly say, "I know you need your freedom/ you stopped contacting him/ I should trust you more. But I can't help feeling insecure. Is there any way we can compromise or find a solution to reassure me?"

This is my suggestion; other vets please correct me if I am wrong. Oh, and one other thing, and this is the hard part. If you catch her still contacting the OM, at that point you need to firmly, but not yelling or making disrespectful judgements, you need to tell her that you are disappointed and upset that she is still contacting the other man and that she lied to you. Tell her that she hurts you badly by keeping contact and that you want her to stop. But you still love her and are determined to show her that you are the better man. And then, you need to push through with that plan A stronger than ever.

I agree and think it is a combination of the two, Jah.

It's mainly number 1), but I think number 2) is also still posing some problems.

She is either in contact with OM or hopeful that she can browbeat DND into backing off and not checking up on her. So she thinks she can resume contact when she has achieved better control of her betrayed spouse. Usually WWs do this with threats, promises and accusations they don't love 'controlling' men.

Her secretiveness, accusations of DND being controlling, searching for OM on Twitter are all bad signs.

But hopefully she is just going through withdrawal from him and he is leaving her system. I do believe if Dave let up on his vigilance and snooping and gave her any opportunity of contacting him without her being caught, she would take it.

Guys thanks for the comments and number 1 with some number 2 mixed in like indie said feels like where things are, am on phone so hard to quote comments with replies but I will in the morning. One major piece of information though is I have spoke to OM's BS and there has been a number of EP's she has put in place as well now which should mean number 2 becomes exactly like indie said in that she is "hoping" to make contact or receive contact, will give more info in the morning

This is a great thing to here and i certainly am making my changes habits and here for the future.

I can certainly say that OM is out of her life and contact, whilst she may have "tried" to make some contact etc there hasnt been any.

I didnt think i was out of plan A yet

- Thanks for the advice on this when i first mentioned it to here i did say how it made me feel insecure\paranoid etc.

Thanks for this.

Yes if i caught her trying to contact him i would confront her again.

indie i think she is hopeful of getting in contact with OM and yes she does browbeat me etc and now she has started using her laptop full on again, unlike a week ago when she said she would never use it again cause she felt watched on.

I hope she is just going through withdrawal from OM and he is leaving her system, i have no intention of dropping my vigilance or snooping so she wont get the chance to contact.

so i spoke with OM's BS yesterday and she is pretty upset and in a bad place but realled p155sed off with OM for what he has done. Also she feels the same about my WW as they were best friends as wells so there is a lot of betrayal all around been felt.

So now OM's BS has ensure that OM has blocked my wife on all electronic means i.e. facebook, twitter, msn etc also he has changes his contact numbers as well. This has all been done without my WW knowing. OM's BS also has snooping stuff in place as well.

So this means if she tries to contact him she is going to start finding a lot of closed doors. I dont instead to relax on the snooping etc but all these things make me feel a little better about it. A before someone says about secret phones\accounts etc there hasnt been any but i will still wtahc for them as well

Well we had a counsilling session last night and whilst it was ok'sh we pretty much recapped the events of the last few weeks while the counciller had been on holiday. Basically my WW is saying she feels frightened\scared\fearful etc and that the changes in me she sees feel strange and unaturual etc as well. The one thing though she never actually asked\told me to stop doing any one thing during the session. Also when the wife relays events\conversations etc she certainly misses out a lot of things and also never relays positive things.

I basically said that i would do anything and everything that it would take to restore our marriage, and that the hardest thing for me right now is lack of any feedback on whether what i say is right or wrong and whether anything i do is right or wrong. I also raised the point that it feels like she gives with one hand and takes with the other.

The counciller said whilst it was unfortune that she had been on holiday and left us at such a difficult time for so long it sounded like our time had been mainly good with a few bad highlights.

She also said a big issue right now is perception on both of our parts, i want to see positive and hope in everything and the wife wants to see bag negative in everything. This is due to our stand points of me wanting to save and her wanting to separate etc, but what was agreed upon is that we need to make things more black and white between us and make sure the other knows\understands something and also we have to negotiate more and basically start to use a POJA which the wife has agreed to. Also the counciller did say it almost seems like we are trying to compete with each other on things, hence starting to now make things black n white and negotiate on things.

We both have solo session lined up for next week, although i am trying to get a session earlier. I did say in last night session that i wasnt going to start going over my A or my wifes A either as it would help noboday and just cause hurt\pain and that we need to sole the real issues. What it seems the counciller is doing though is getting us both to stop committing LB's and also starting to POJA now, i continue to fufill EN's as best i can and like i say the wife still hasnt actually said for me to stop any of them, even though the counsiller was there. I would say based on the previous comments and last night session that the wife is in the state of withdrawl now and occasionally dipping her toe out into conflict and then runs back, and occisional keeps looking back (metaphorically) to see if OM is anywhere to be seen.

So does your counselor not know about the swinging and infidelities on both parts?

It all sounds pretty good Dave.

Very mild reactions and complaints from your wife for a wayward. You certainly aren't giving her much of a case against you.



I don't have much of a problem with what you said here, because it is very Plan A to say that someday you expect to have your needs met in return too. I would just tweak the way you make this complaint a bit more to 'some day' rather than the present tense you use here.

Your wife, (though completely wayward and a bit nuts when it comes to OM and checking up on him) makes a very reasonable point when it comes to her stance towards you. She's basically said that after years of bad behaviour and five minutes of good, she hasn't had enough time to see this as a permanent change.

So if she 'gives with one hand and takes away with the other' its because she's undecided. She cant commit to being with you until she's seen more consistency. So I would just tweak this from saying she is 'giving with one hand and taking away with the other' to 'I hope one day she trusts me enough to believe the changes are permanent'

But overall, not bad.



Has she done anything specific?



I applaud your snooping efforts here and these measures will help keep your wife protected from OM.

I usually encourage BSs to communicate and prevent contact - but isnt this woman a former sexual partner of yours from the swinging scene? Forgive me if I am making a mistake.

The problem is, there should be complete NC between you and any OW. I'm not saying you should abandon this way of protecting your wife and safeguarding recovery, I'm just saying we need to tackle this proactively and possibly get someone else to communicate with the BW for you.

It would be disrespectful to your WW and also sets her a bad example if you are communicating with an OW - to prevent her communicating with OM, kwim?

The counciller knows absolutley everything, althgouth in the first session when my wife told the whole story etc she left huges chuncks out which i felt was relevant so i added them to give whole picture. Its sort of a common think at the moment with my wife she only paints the picture in a single colour (mainly the negative color) and misses out everything else which i have to add back in to make it color

- which bit needed the 'some day', also my wife was in quite a lot of tears during the session and she does seems to be very frightedn\scared etc

- I fully understand this and accept it and i know that is wasnt she is constantly in turmoil with but i am been consistant with not commiting LB's and fufilling EN's. Like i said even at the session last night if the safett of the counciller she still didnt actually come out and say she didnt want me to stop text\notes\message\giving attention\helping etc etc which reminded me of what you said in that she actually doesnt want me to stop and if i did if would just validate what part of her thinks.

- not that i have found apart from the last incident looking on twitter and no other eveidence has been found. As mentioned before she said when i caught her she wouldnt use laptop or phone etc on home netwrork cause felt like i was spying\watchign\stalking her (she mentioned some of this last night) but now she is back to fully useing phone and laptop on home netwrok (the words of a ww eh lol)


- Yes she is on the scene but i felt i needed to speak to her just find out her take on what has gone on, now the dust has settled. She as mortified as me about what has gone one and that fact we were once all such close friends and feels that my WW and her WH have both betrayed her much like i feel as well. I have no intentioned now of speaking to her again like i say i felt the time was right for a one-off conversation to establish some EP's and i feel much better now knowing my WW can no longer see OM electronically.

Just watch your mindset here Dave, you will lose valuable posters if they feel you don't 'get' MB.

All four of you were adulterers and you shared the adultery drug between the four of you. The fact that at least two of the group remain addicted to the drug is a blame shared by all four.

Yes i know and aceept it and my failures, like i say i no longer condone that lifestyle or what happene and take the blame for it. That i just felt the time was right to speak to her as i said and have no intention of ever speaking to her again regarding this.

Just a reminder. Keep up the good work in helping your wife.

i am indie, plan a all the way even though it does feel like 1 step forward and 2 back at time, but until she actually comes out and tells me to stop something specififc i wont

seems in a better more chattin mood since coming from work, sent her a text earlier saying she looked nice in her top and that hopd she had a nice afternoon etc didnt put an i love you on it this time, have a brief pleasant conversation over dinenr

tlak about ups and downs

Keep up the plan A Dave. ITs like throwing rocks into the river so you can cross it... eventually if you keep throwing them in there .. they will break the surface and you can cross!

MNG