hi all,

i have been reading a lot of the site for the last week and finally found somewhere that i believe in, so decided it was time to post my "story". It's pretty long and complex like most peoples so i will try to keep it as brief as i can without missing things out.

background:
I am 39 and wife is 35, we have been married for nrly 13yo and together 18yrs, we have a 11yo son whom we both cherish. Around 3yrs ago i got caught having an affair wish all ended in a pretty unpleasant way with cops involved as well. My wife fought for me and my love and "won" me back as deep inside me i knew i truley loved her. We did do a couple fo marriage councilling session but these ended as at the time i was still lying about the affair, and we managed to reconcile by ourselves. I gave my reasons for the affair and the wife actually understand and accepted them such as not getting attention, feeling unloved, unwanted etc and that my wife had been very very closed minded sexually. After reconciling we ended up getting into the swinging scene through mutual agreement and have had a fanatastic time in it, during which we met one couple who because our closest best friend ever and doing a lot of social things together.

Around 8 months ago i started to feel jelous when we went to parties etc that my wife was getting so much attention and had built her confidence up etc and started playing without me been in a room. The problem for me was i never felt comfortable playing without my wife been in the room, to the extent that i had the male problem of not getting hard and used ot make exuses about it. I didnt tell me wife a few times about i didnt like something but she always reasoned i was the one she came to bed with and slept with etc which i accepted and didnt want to spoil the fun she was having.

Over the last 3 months though she had started spending more and more time online chatting to the male half of our best friends to the exntent it was every night for 2 - 4 hrs. I tried talking to her and telling her etc but she would never close her laptop or stop, it didnt seem to matter whether i was in the room or out of it and she just said it was nothing and just chit chat which again i accepted.

So 4 weeks ago she dropped the bomb on me that she wanted a separation, that she didnt love me, didnt find me attractive i didnt turn her on etc etc. I crumbled and went into overdrive on the begging\pleading etc, she went to our "friends" and told them etc and then the following day i went to see them as well and told them how i felt about her and poured my heart out. They said they were both our friends and would talk to us both be stay in the middle and not rely information etc about what the other was saying. The wife went to visit her father with out son the following week whcih had been planned some time previoulsy and gave us space, i chatted all the time the male half of our friends during that week with him telling me things to do etc and giving me what i though was good advice and me telling him things i had noticed about the wife and possible signs of hope.

So she came back and again i did the whole pleading begging thing and been an emotional wreck but she was just cold and hard to me. To cut a long store a bit shorting i installed a keylogger etc on her laptop and found out the chats betwene him and her were a lot more than chit chat and that he had been telling her everything i told him and telling her not to do it and that she had made the right choices and it was ll my fault do the my previous affair etc. I then also found txts on her old fone about going to see him for sex as well without me knowing. I confronted him and his wife and told his wife everything and then my wife that i knew, but she would not admit it to even in the face of proof.

So after a few weeks i managaed to get the wife to agree to go to councilling for us, even though she was still talking about spearation and it was all over and she had no feelings for met. We have had a couple of session with the counciller now and i have had a solo one as well, at the moment the counciller is trying to get us to a place where the wife feels safe at home and that my argument\anger\emotions etc dont come out to hurt her in like the past. I have did start trying to do all the things that i hadnt do in the past liek help out, been attentive, converstion etc tec but the wife had said that this was all a little too much too late but still i continue.

I had read so much and way too much about how to "win" her back etc and 99% i didnt agree with or couldnt do, but this site has given me a clear guide now. I am actively trying to eliminate the love busters and fufill her emotional needs where i can. She is still very cold and hard towards me and sleeping in separate rooms, there is no physical contact\intamcy which i can live with given everything. I did tell the counciller about this site and the basic concepts and she fully understood it and said she does a very similar thing but not as prescriptive with the quiestionaires etc but does understand all the concepts. So i think at the moment the with is in the withdrawl stage whilst i am at conflict, iam trying to execute plan A and create the warm\friendly home that she wants to be in so that as the counciller said then and only then will she let her heart start open instead of her head filled with all the negative things.

Sorry this has been a longish post but hope it gives everyone a good background and where we are today and that any comments, suggestions from people can follow. I just hope our marriage can be saved even though the wife at the moment is not in that head space.
Dave

Welcome to MB.

What have you done to expose? When are you quitting the swinging lifestyle?

Please read.
Exposure 101

Please listen.
Radio clip on Swinging Lifestyle
Segment #2

I think that's AWESOME that your wife is no longer so closed minded! It sounds to me like you need to keep an open mind.

[quote=BrainHurtsWelcome to MB.

What have you done to expose? When are you quitting the swinging lifestyle? [/quote]

I told his wife family close friends etc about what has happened etc and during councilling last night my wife swore on our sons life that she has had no contact with him what so ever, she has come of facebook etc, msn etc. I do knot this is also no so much about the affair as the background and the way i have been in the past, just as making promises to change and then breaking them. The couple were very very close friends who i trusted (but now i dont) and used to have no issues with the chit chat etc as it is part of the scene. We have come off the scene completely now, no profiles on sites etc, as i said we are in separte bedrooms she doesnt want me to see her naked or touch her etc. I just want her to see the changes i am making, know they are real and let her heart open to me

Yes and i love her to pieces just i stopped showing it and got jelous i love the way she is now, and just want to "win" back her heart

The biggest issue right now is that she is saying that she has no feelings etc, doesnt love me and cant make herself love me etc. I have said i dont want her to make herself love me but see the changes and be able to feel proud of me and let herself love me.

I know her love bank is zero of negative right now and that at the moment all her negative emotions in her head are her defense wall to protect her from the past hurts. This is a tune to what the counciller said last night that i have to create a safe\warm\relaxed home for her so that she can let the feelings in her heart come into play. I know that deep down inside she does love me and wants to make this work but right now things are very raw to her and she doesnt want to get hurt again like previous times when i have said i will change only to fall back.

I wish i could just hug her and say we can get through this and be stronger from it, but i know its early days for that yet. When i met the counciller alone i told her how i felt and that i just wish my wife would come out and say she would try but know she wont. The counciller said "no she wont right now" but dont i think the fact she went from been dead set against counciller to agreeing to come (after i exposed) is a sign and that she is willing and wanting to keep coming and has even talked about the future when she returns to work (teacher) moving her job schedule to be able to come to councilling. I had picked up on these things as been signs but not said anything and was nice to hear the counciller saying the same without me saying anything.

Can you be open minded to the fact that she has found a new love now and is moving on? See, what usually happens with swingers is the wife finds a new love and moves on.

Want to know why? She knows she is married to a CAD who doesn't care about her [what kind of a husband pimps his own wife out, after all]. Women love ONE MAN at a time and they need to feel an emotional attachment to a man in order to enjoy sex. Therefore, when they begin swinging, they often become emotionally attached to their new adultery partner. And since women love ONE MAN at a time, they dump the pimp husband.

So what you did by pimping out your wife was to hand her over to another man. No matter what you call adultery, "swinging," it is a disaster to marriage.

melody i hear what you saying but we went into mutually agreeing and both had lots of fun for a couple of years. The problem is i started to get jelous and rather than say something i felt guilt because of my affair and didnt want to spoil her fun, this is somethig i have talked to counsiller about. There was certainly no pimping going on at all and like i say we had lots of fun for the first couple of years. All of it has stopped now and there is no contact with the other couple in anyway shape or form (which she made her furious, saying she lost best friends etc) but that was the exposure. She did admit to having the EA and seeing for sex without me knowing last night so we have the truth out now.

What i am looking for is how best i win her heart back show her i am the man she married and really love and here for her how best to look after her and our son etc. LIke i say all contact and swinging has stopped, she stopped talking separation and started to talk about lil furutre things etc i just love her to bits and i stopped showing and saying and doing it

I have no doubt this was YOUR SICK IDEA and your wife thought she could save her marriage after your affair if she committed adultery with you. Betrayed spouses are under enormous pressure to save a marriage after an affair and often agree to sicko ideas like this to keep the marriage. "Open minded" indeed! What is they say about not being too open minded because your brains will fall out? Swinging [another name for adultery] sure demonstrates that principle, doesn't it?


And that is ok, but it is you who condoned the affair. You had an agreement to commit adultery. Adultery is adultery and women need to feel an emotional attachment to enjoy sex. You were complicit in all this.

melody,

I understand the things you are saying and where you are coming from, but in the start the idea of a 3some etc actually was very mutual and like i say for a few years we have both had a great time.

I didnt condone what she was doing as i didnt actually know, maybe i put my head in the sand so to speak. She has admited she took it beyond the scene and feels ashamed and guilt for what she has done. Yes there is "some" emotional attachement but she admits it went way beyond this. The guys wife was unaware as well as to what had gone on until i told her and showed her the proof as well. So its all exposed and out now

So like i have said, i am trying to rebuild our marriage, show her i am changing etc and would like any advice on how best to do this. My heart is 150% in this and from the little signs she is giving off i know she is trying as well but just cant come out and say it for fear of getting hurt like past time. I know i aint perfect and fcked up but by god i am trying to win her back and show her how much i always have loved her and that i am the man to be with and our family can be better than it has ever been. So any constructiv suggestions and advice are appreciated on what i should and shouldnt be doing, to move forward. I know its early days and like most men want to run before i can work, but i believe in the MB concepts and see them as the way for us to get our marriage back together.

Did you listen to the clips?

yes i listened to them and very helpful, although i would say my wife isnt a sex addict at all, yeah we had fun at parties but she definately isnt itching to get back into the scene etc. also we always went together she never went alone, if i said i didnt want to go then we never went. I never actually said i wanted us to stop either, as inside me i felt guilty becuase of my affair and didnt want her to stop having fun and feel like i was spoiling things. I guess that is where the problem lays in that i got jelous and rather than speak up i tried to ignore it and just go with the flow.

like i have previously said she seems to give out signs that she is willing to try and work things out but just cant see it as of yet. So like i have said, i am trying to rebuild our marriage, show her i am changing etc and would like any advice on how best to do this. My heart is 150% in this and from the little signs she is giving off i know she is trying as well but just cant come out and say it for fear of getting hurt like past time. I know i aint perfect and fcked up but by god i am trying to win her back and show her how much i always have loved her and that i am the man to be with and our family can be better than it has ever been. So any constructiv suggestions and advice are appreciated on what i should and shouldnt be doing, to move forward. I know its early days and like most men want to run before i can work, but i believe in the MB concepts and see them as the way for us to get our marriage back together.

Was it very mutual because she felt pressured to be "open minded?" My point is that the fact that you cared so little about your wife that you persuaded her to commit adultery has to have had a devastating effect on her. She would know how little you cared about her.

Many of the wives of swingers we have seen here over the years felt very pressured to commit adultery and felt PIMPED out. They believed they had to do this to save their marriages. But deep down they know their husbands don't care about them.

I wonder if your wife knows you don't care?

I am sure you had a great time for a few years committing adultery, but as you can see, it actually pushed your wife away. Adultery is always destructive to self and to marriage and I don't see that you understand this. You seem to think that adultery is ok as long as it is mutually agreed upon. Is that so?

The first step would be to disavow your adulterous lifestyle and stay away from people like this. But it doesn't seem like you even feel there is anything wrong with this. You can't have a normal marriage when there is not exclusivity.

Also, have you both been checked for STDs?

As I already said we have both left it now, profiles gone etc and have left the friends n scene behind and what has happened has happened niether if us can change it, so where do I gofrom here?

From the glowing way you discuss adultery, I am concerned that you understand how destructive this lifestyle really is. It makes be think there is more than adultery here, but a worldview problem. Do you understand how destructive adultery is to a marriage?

Yes i undersatdn, and whether yoru agree or not with swinging on a moral and personal note i dount thing bares relevance. I am asking for help and advice from the community as to how i should move foward to save my marriage and my wife and son

It is this paragraph that is problematic. First off, you blame your wife for your affair and don't seem to take any accountability for your own part. And secondly, you cite her "very, very closed mind" while extolling the virtues of adultery.

Do you think that people who don't practice adultery are "closed minded?" And are you still under the illusion that adultery is "fantastic?" This perception is the view of someone who is still very foggy. It is like the crackhead who destroys his life using crack and still extols the virtues of crack. He is not in recovery until he realistically sees how destructive it is to be a crack head.

It absolutely bears relevance, because unless you understand and accept that adultery is about the worst thing you can do, then your marriage will always be at great risk because your WORLDVIEW is a threat to the marriage.

One thing you have to agree with is that adultery is the most destructive thing that can happen to marriage. And you have done it multiple times. Unless you understand there is something very wrong with adultery, then your marriage won't recover because part of recovery is correcting bad behavior.

mel,

what i meant by that was my wife was very shy sexually in all dertments since the birth of our son. I dont blame my wife for my affair i held my hands up and admitted my failures for it. So what now

Tell me what is wrong with swinging.

But Dave it does appear relevant because her "closed mindedness" was one of your reasons for cheating. It certainly looks like she agreed to swing in an attempt to keep her family together.

I think you are going to have to acknowledge to her how destructive and DISRESPECTFUL it was to encourage her to engage in this lifestyle.

You blamed your wife in your first post:


I don't see where you admitted your failures for it in this post.

In fact, you CONTINUED to commit adultery but you just got your wife to join you. So, you never changed after your first affair.

maybe that is the case, but she has certainly enjoyed it and told me she has i admit looking back it was\is wrong and we shouldnt have done it, but it is what it is and i cant change the past so have to deal with the present and future

A person who is truly sorry for their crimes doesn't continue to commit crimes. You continued to commit adultery, but simply changed the name to "swinging" and dragged your wife into the sewer with you.

I am discussing your PRESENT worldview. You described adultery in glowing terms in your first post which was made this morning. That is NOT in the past.

You really need to clue in to what Melody Lane is telling you if you ever want to be in a good marriage with her or with anybody else in the future after she divorces you.

There are plenty of men that can be polygamous at heart, but it is extremely rare to find a woman that is polyandrous at heart. Women are monogamous by nature; this is how cave women knew who the fathers were, and this is how cave men could be sure that all the offspring they supported actually carried their DNA. When your wife started having enjoyable sex with another man, encouraged by you, she threw you out of her heart. For you to want her to enjoy swinging is abusive to her psyche. It is impossible for her to be attracted to you based on this experience.

You can't even make a start at turning things around as long as you remain blind and deaf to what Melody Lane is saying.

This is exactly right. He shows no remorse for his adultery or for dragging his wife into this sick lifestyle. If one has no remorse that means they don't see the problem and it is likely to happen again.

The first step, from my perspective, is to recognize the "swinging" for what it is: ADULTERY. Show some damn remorse. Take accountability for committing adultery and for bringing your wife into this. Otherwise, you are not showing her you care or that you have really changed.

Let me put it another way so this point is driven home. Some men would KILL another man for putting his hands on their wife, and you just gladly handed her over. We have men here who went to JAIL for assaulting the scumbag OM.

You not only didn't care enough to protect your wife, but you gladly handed her over so you could crawl in the pigpen yourself with some skank.

That has to have had a serious impact on your wife. And is even more serious since you seem to have no remorse and absolutely no recognition of the problem.

I think that's AWESOME that your wife is no longer so closed minded! It sounds to me like you need to keep an open mind.

CLEAR! As I read this, Tex, I felt those ol' chest pains returning!

So what you did by pimping out your wife was to hand her over to another man. No matter what you call adultery, "swinging," it is a disaster to marriage.

Whew! All's right with the world!

DND, even you must see by now that the lifestyle you "enjoyed" was the proximate cause of the infidelity your wife modeled on your desires.

How putridly juvenile must the logic be that supports having her get "serviced" in your presence, to effectuate your own sagging virility, would be a moral or honorable (to say nothing of "wise") marital strategy?

You need to grow up about four sizes in conjugal maturity before the "big-boy pants" you will need to don will have any chance of fitting, my confused friend!

And you KNOW where my blood pressure was when I wrote that!!

Dotnetdave,

Did you answer ALL of your WWs questions concerning your affair from years back?

Did you cut off all contact with the OW from years back?

Did you apologize to the husband of the OW from years back?

God Bless
Gamma

Dave, when a person enters AA, before they start treatment to cure their addiction for alcohol, what is the first thing they must do?


....waits...hears wheels turning�.



That's right.


They say: �hi, my name is Dave, I am an alcoholic"

Or, in your case �hi, my name is Dave, I am an adulterer and swinger�


Why do they do this?


Look man, I am not here to beat you up. What ML is TRYING to get across to you is that until you really see the error in your ways and admit to these things, your M will never recover.


Step 1: realize the error, acknowledge it, and commit to a different lifestyle

THEN, recover.

Get it?

Dotnetdave,

One other point is that when spouses cheat on each other the cheating does not cancel out to zero, but it doubles the pain, or in your case multiplies it by 15 or 20.

Think of it this way if you drove your car into a tree does that allow your W to do the same, or the family just left without transportation?

Another really bad issue you have to deal with is no-contact with this extended "family" of swingers you and your W have been intimate with.

God Bless
Gamma

Gamma,

To answer your first post yes, i answered all questions and did everythign you mentiond. I admit i had an affair i aint proud of it i admit we got into swinging and it was the wront decision at the wrong time for the wrong reasons. I admit i have failed to give my my wife the emotional fulfulliment she deserver and as a result this is what has happened. But cut me some slack i am recognizing and admitting these things NOW. We have both cut all contact with people we met in the scene and between us have agreed that this situation is and between us and NOBODY else now.

Lots of weasel words in this post!! Are you saying there is a "right time" and a "right reason" to get into adultery? [ie: swinging]

And the problem isn't that you didn't "give your wife emotional fulfillment" but that you dragged her into your adulterous lifestyle and handed her over to some loser to have sex with.

Interesting how you manage to minimize spin what actually happened. That concerns me.

I don't see you recognizing and admitting these things NOW. Oh no. You just wrote a post TODAY extolling the virtues of swinging, which is about as virtuous as a pack of pigs getting it on.

So help me understand your comment above. Is there a "right time" and a "right reason" to be a swinger?

Melody I think our views are very different and ask that if you cannot help support what sort of things I should n could do using MB then you refrain from posting anymore

BEFORE Tex gets back with her shotgun, let me point out to you, my friend, that this website is based on a marriage support program that in turn is based on time-tested principles that repair (if necessary) and nurture healthy marriages.

You should read some of the underlying principles and practices that this site supports.

Actually, I think the main problem here is that your views are very different from Dr. Harley's, the creator of this plan from which you seek help.

There simply is no way to use the MB program if you believe that adultery (including swinging) is okay. That sort of thing goes against everything that MB stands for.

If you would take some time to read the basic principles of this program, then you would already know that. Have you read anything on this site at all?

i have read everything on the site

DnD

Don't believe ML is the only one following this line of questioning /reasoning.

I am one of the ones who doesn't take to kindly having another mans hands on my W yet you promoted it.

Hmm.... OM's face quit hitting my fists when my son pulled me away from him.

Pretty stong feelings here and it does make a difference as to when the right or wrong time is for adultry.

Love to here your explanation

nESRE

You betcha our views are very different and that is why I am here supporting your marriage. Your "views" have all but wrecked your marriage and ruined your life and I don't see that you are in the least bit honest about that. I see no recognition and absolutely no remorse, which means nothing has changed.

I am not surprised you sidestepped my question about what you mean by the "right time" and the "right reasons."

You won't get anywhere until you are honest. Honest with yourself and honest with us.

I suspect you think that your nasty little adultery ploy has just hit a bump in the road but can be put back on track in the future when your wife gets over her feelings. Thats what you meant by the "right time" and the "right reasons," right?

I think its quite an ingenious way to get away with adultery. Here you get caught committing adultery and what do you do? You don't stop, you just invite your wife to join you in adultery and call it a cute name like "swinging." All the time proclaiming over and over "it was a mutual decision!!" This way, she is your partner in crime instead of the victim who interferes with your fun.

How about answering my question about the "right time" and the "right reasons."

Okay, then answer this. How do you think MB can help you have a better marriage if you support adultery and a swinging lifestyle?

i have read everything on the site

Oh, yes, I recall from your first post:

i have been reading a lot of the site for the last week and finally found somewhere that i believe in

So you "believe in" the portions that you chose, but decide to skip(?) the parts about fidelity and marital protection!

The concept of a healthy marriage is not a smorgasbord that you walk through and select those portions that look inviting. Depending on your choice of denomination or creed, somewhere in the wedding vows that set the groundrules that you agreed to live by was a phrase to the effect of "forsaking all others". Is any of this ringing a bell?

So when you discovered that Mr Happy was not going to rise to the occasion unless you were watching your wife get railed by a posse of snakes, you decided that those vows were no longer convenient for you? And you're going to preach to us about the content and viability of the material on this site?

Really? Well, if so, please continue, and demonstrate how your version of conjugal "tag" is working out for you and the little woman!

Are you addicted to adultery? Is that why you are hanging on so tight here? Is that why you are using all the weasel words?

I haven't been able to read all of the added posts. Is Dave really trying to rationalize adultery(swinging) on a Marriage BUILDERS site?

I hope I'm missing something?

hah you guys are now starting to make me laugh you are becoming so far upselves you dont see it, i thought there was empathy, a was to right the wrongs and repair the damage but certain ones of you wish to just be marriage bashers. So is the scene adultours yes it yes, but its by mutual consent. When i said it wasnt the right time etc was meaning and refering to we hadnt actually got closure on the affair. Do either of us regret swinging in one sense no and in another yes but unless you are in the lifestyle you wouldnt have the faintest idea. This was not about me watching her with other men as that is cuckolding, i had no issues when we played as a couple with another couple or been watched by other, the problems started when the wife started to play without me and becuase of my inner guilt i could never rise to the occasion to play without her.

brainhurts no i am NOT trying to raitonalize it, i accept it was a mistake looking back and wrong but i cannot change the past or history all i can do is move forward and change. to resuce and save my marriage and show my wife how much i have always cared and loved her

The only way to do this is to accept the fact that there is no good way or good time to introduce adultery into a marriage, whether by mutual consent or not.

Until you realize that, this program really has nothing to offer you.

So you're quitting the lifestyle so you can work on your marriage?

That is no where close to the time "the problems started".


Think back to the time you conceived of the notion that swinging is merely a lifestyle choice and not what it really is.... Vulgar...Disgusting...soul searing...Shameless adultery.

Mr. W

Just as I suspected, he supports and advocates adultery using the justification that it was done by "mutual consent."

As Dr Phil would say, "how's that working for ya, buddy?"

"I just got hit by a car playing chicken but it was done by 'mutual consent!' unless you have played chicken yourself, you wouldn't have the faintest idea!! Where's your empathy for us chicken players??!!"

GOOD GRIEF...

I think you are fooling yourself dave about how much "the wife" enjoyed swinging. It is unlikely for a woman who is shy and closed minded about sex to suddenly do an about face and become a swinger. She entered into swinging because YOU dragged her into it. It is also why she stopped including you...because she did not enjoy swinging and never did.


This is obvious to everyone here but you. Interestingly, YOU are the one whose marriage is in ruins. Maybe you should listen.


Why do you keep calling her "the wife" like she is some object that you own.

Your marriage has no hope until you show some understanding and remorse for your abuse of her. Stop talking about how much she enjoyed it...clearly she did not.

Yes I have or thought I had already said that, we have quit and have no contact with anyone in the scene. If I can save our marriage n wife I have NO plans or thoughts to return to it either

Ok given you don't know my wife then if it makes you happy she hated every minute of it and was dragged into it by me. Although I will add if you had lived it you would have seen it went from me been the confident one to her been the confident one

But what if you have thoughts to return in the future? What then?

I like your play on words and did notice you avoiding saying "I WILL NEVER COMMIT ADULTERY AGAIN."

Since you don't even seem to understand there is anything wrong with adultery or anything wrong with pimping out your wife, what is there to stop you from doing this in the future?

Can you think of better ways to increase one's confidence than degrading yourself with adultery after being pimped out by your husband? Was there another way?

Does your son know you did this to his mother?

***EDIT***

Does your son know you did this to his mother? - ML

***EDIT***

I would think the answer is "No"!

You played with fire. Often and carelessly.
Your marriage didn't heal after your affair and instead the two of you drifted further apart. You allowed other men to touch her and play with her and I can imagine she lost respect for you because of that.

What kind of man shares his woman?

Now she's more confident than you and you've had to experience firsthand the pain of the partner you love, falling in love and giving herself to someone else.

It sucks!

People in the 'lifestyle' think they're so evolved when they're doing it. they think the rest of us are just uptight losers but when divorce comes, and it nearly always does, it becomes apparent that life partners and parents of children should keep the sexuality sacred and EXCLUSIVE.

She found someone better than you. At least she believes she has. Can you blame her?

I actually feel sad for you.

I just don't get this...

Why get married and bring kids into this situation if you were both interested in bringing third parties into your most intimate and private moments? How is your marriage ever supposed to be intimate, secure or even viable when your sharing it with others like that?

What is left in your marriage that makes it a marriage as opposed to two people who have zero commitment to be faithful to each other just living under the same roof?? is there anything left that is "special" about the commitment of marriage you made to each other? Are there any vows left that have not been broken or destroyed by your choices?


You have come here to a forum full of people who take marriage seriously and stand against any acts that threaten marriages and you have the galll to get angry because we can't condone one of the most obvious acts of assault against marriages?

I guess you have been spending too much time with people from the swingers scene to understand that it is not normal, healthy or even morally acceptable to watch your spouse being intimate with others or sleep with someone else's spouse. And if I am wrong on this point and am just being a stuck up prude then please tell me how many of your family members and friends outside of the swinging lifestyle have you told about your attendance at swinging parties??
My guess would be none.

Like others have said if you want to save your marriage your only hope is to realise exactly how much damage has been done and understand there is nothing left in your marriage to make anyone recognise that it is a marriage a part from a legal piece of paper so your going to have to start building this from scratch, the vowes you made when you got married have become null and void the minute you shared your marriage with others the way you did.

There is nothing to recover here but you can build something new once you realise how you destroyed your marriage.

Dotnetdave,

and that she had made the right choices and it was ll my fault do the my previous affair etc.

I'm going to guess that your WW never recovered from your original affair. I think the OM was just repeating what your WW told him.

Does your WW still see the OW or friends of the OW, are their many triggers for your WW?

Please don't get rude, all the posters here can do is base their judgements on the few words you have written.

God Bless
Gamma

:::snort::: Bad call, Dave. How about we all just forget that you ever suggested the dismissal of one of the most important persons on this site who can help you steer your marriage out of the ditch you've driven it into?

No need to talk about it or apologize to MelodyLane. She's used to people fighting what works. Let's just forget this post ever occurred, shall we?

Don't see what? And you see where that 'consensual' behavior has gotten you. Screwing people other than your spouse doesn't typically end well. As you now see.

And there is one thing I'm seeing in your posts that really makes me wonder: Why do you call your swinging activities "playing"? Playing with WHAT? Why would swingers demean the intimate and bonding act of sex by calling it "playing"? Do you understand how dangerous it is to marry a person and vow to be faithful to them for Life, and then enter into sexual activities that endanger that marriage? Do you realize that calling these dangerous sexual activities "playing" trivializes a hugely important cornerstone of marriage?

Hi Dave, and welcome to MarriageBuilders.
I'm not yellin' at ya, just talking quietly, if you'll indulge me for a moment.

I guess what I need help from you in getting a fix on is, where are you starting from mentally? To be more specific:

-- Do you accept that you have both been unfaithful to one another? You can argue that it wasn't "cheating" because you both agreed, but you really can't say that it wasn't infidelity, because you both have indeed broken faith with your marriage vows. (And I was guilty of infidelity myself, so I'm not here to bash ya, just to see whether you're seeing straight yet.)

-- And if you accept that you've both been unfaithful to each other, then my second question is, do you believe that being unfaithful is wrong under all circumstances, or do you still believe that it is acceptable under certain circumstances (such as when both spouses agree to be unfaithful)?

The reason I ask is that, if you both don't agree that infidelity is wrong, period, then you really don't have much basis to recover your marriage & make it all it can be.

If, on the other hand, you agree that infidelity is wrong, then there's a basis for taking some steps forward to affair-proofing your marriage & making it mutually satisfying.

So if you could answer my questions above, that'll give us a better fix on what to tell ya, or whether you might be wastin' your time.

Are you saying you mentored her into this lifestyle? You were into the lifestyle and worked her into the same lifestyle? What is your point? Are you proud of that?

Dotnetdave, there is no was to justify cheating, bringing in 3rd party into a marriage. No matter what nice sounding label you want to put on it.

Murder is murder.

Does it make murder less heinous when it is called abortion?

No it does not. Another life is ended before it's time.

You allowed another man to bang your WW.

A wife loses the respect for their husband when that husband lets other men use her. When the respect is gone then the wife's love is lost just as the respect was.

You can't admit that having an open marriage was wrong. Saying you stop having an open marriage, won't go back to having an open marriage, is not the same as it was wrong to have an open marriage from the beginning.

You still chose to think that allowing OM to bang your wife was ok by recounting your favorable memories of OM banging your wife.

You said you were not a cuckold.

Well I have to point out that it is too late to close the barn door on that one.

Your recovery will go no where because you still think there was nothing wrong with having an open marriage.

Your open marriage laid the ground work for your WW to have an affair and get laid by the OM.

Gamma

There is no contact with the om or anyone associated, not sure what you mean by triggers? At the moment we have very little conversation, separate rooms, no touching etc

I agree that I don't think she every got past my affair, from the conversation I have seen between her and the om it seems everytime she questioned herself about the current situation he was saying what she wanted to hear and just saying everything was my fault etc, yet this same person had claimed to be my best friend

Glove oil

To answer your question yes I do accept what we have both done and yes it was wrong, I just want to show her how much I do love n care for her n get her to open back to me

Well after 8 pages have you gotten the book Surviving An Affair.

Are you going to make sure you are in the marriage bed. WW not willing to be in the same bed as you is WW being faithful to her OM.

Are you going to do a proper exposure?
Have you noticed that you are the only one that does not want to expose?
What does that say?

I havent got that book yet, i am sleeping in our marital bed and my wife is sleeping in the spare room. My wife has no contact with the OM or anyone else we have met.

I thought i had done proper exposure by telling OM's wife and friends family etc. Not sure what you mean saying i dont want to expose ? as i am the one who did want to and has.

Will she write a NC letter to OM? No Contact letters

dave. Can you stop saying we were BOTH wrong...but she agreed.
This is a cop out.

Own your own choices. I did not protect my wife.

This is where you start. She doesn't feel safe with someone who will allow his friends to degrade her while he watches.

I am not sure and feel she would, but right now she see's anythign i suggest as been pressure and controlling her. At the moemnt the counciller has just been trying to get us into a place where she feels safe\relaxed at home and that i wont have any angry outbursts.

pokerface, glove oil said these statements


so i was merely saying yes i accept with have both been unfaithful to each other

and yes i do believe that been unfaithful is wrong under all circumstances

i think your have misread what i wrote into reply to the questions\statements that glove oil had asked me.

Dave. I haven't seen any acknowledgement or understanding that YOU failed to protect your wife. I keep reading how it was mutually agreed.


Start to own your side of the street. That is the only thing you can control.

I did not protect and care for my wife. I let my friends degrade her. This why she does not feel safe with you. Don't say but she agreed...if she wanted to rob a bank would you let her?

i admit and acknowledge i failed to protect my wife and it was wrong what i got her into and shouldnt ever have done it, hindsight is a wonderful thing. I let people we met degrade her and didnt protect her from them. As i say hindsight is a wonderful thing and god do i feel soooo sh1t right now but i do know i cannt change the past only the present and the future.

Have you read through this?
How to Survive Infidelity

Don't minimize it with hindsight. Own it.

Also own that your affair was "your own selfish choice" to turn away from her. Unmet needs are not a reason to turn away. That will never solve the problem.

reading it as we speak

I do own it, i was just merely saying hindsight allows me to see this now. Regarding my affair i did admit to her that it was my own selfish needs and not talking to her how i felt etc and it was my choice and a wrong one.

Good. Come back with questions and thoughts.

Have read thorugh most of it and re reading it as well, the only think i cant relate to is the fact in all cases it is a one sided affair and i am unsure as to whether we are still dealing with my original affair or what my wife has done or both together

also the other problem i am in is that a lot of what i read is very much similar to when i had my affair and my wife wanted me back to fight for the marriage etc. this time though at the moment all she says is she cares for me but doesnt love me and doesnt find me attractive etc. Are these just her defesnes that she has to protect herslef from hurt, or is she still in the "fog" or has she even got to withdrawel etc yet


another point to add is that she has said to me that she achowledges what she did was wrong and that she has hurt me and wants to be open and honest about it. Do i sit down and tell her that i forgive her and that i blame myself for what happened or say something else to this?

Have you told your wife you are sorry for degrading her? I think its real important to express to her that you understand now how very uncaring and unloving it was to ask her commit adultery. Admit to her that this was a scheme that only served as a cover so you could continue to commit adultery.

This is the first time I have seen you really admit and acknowledge that you made a mistake and participated in the degradation of your wife. You sure didn't feel that way in your initial post. In fact, I saw absolutely no regret, just a strong desire to sweep it all under the rug.

I don't see how your wife can EVER feel safe with you unless you express genuine and sincere remorse for your swinging lifestyle along with a promise to never do it again. And I don't mean weasel words like "wrong time" and "wrong place;" I mean a sincere foreswearing of an immoral and destructive lifestyle at ANY time and ANY place.

Another concern is pornography. Most swingers we have seen here over the years had a porn problem. Do you look at porn?

I would tell her what I told you in my last post and ask for the opportunity to earn her forgiveness for dragging her into your adulterous lifestyle. Your wife is responsible for her participation too, but she is there because of you.

hi mel,

sorry for yesterday i think i was just in an emotional state and denial as well, yes i have apologized to her for both the affair and what i led her into and said how much i regret what has happened, i did say how much harm it has caused and it wasnt right and that if we are to remain married it would be just the two of us as it should always have been.

Regarding the pornography i am have to admit that its one thing that has never done anything for me at all, swear on my sons life on that.

I have asked her to give me time and see the changes in me such as not commiting LB and trying as much as she will allow me to meet her EN. As i say at the moment she is very down\withdraw regarding the future but isnt running out of the door or thinking of separtion and has said "time will tell" if her feelings change. . . is this a positive thing?

Ok, I am confused. You express regret for the FIRST TIME in this post. When did you ever express such regret to her? In your posts you talk about your angry outbursts and meeting her needs, but were just talking about swinging in glowing terms YESTERDAY.

Have you been radically honest about how this all came to be? From what I see the swinging ploy was a way for you to continue committing adultery after your affair. Your wife needs to hear you say that and hear your remorse for being so profoundly uncaring.

I am concerned that you don't understand how much of a problem this is and are sweeping it under the rug. Yes, you have to stop angry outbursts, but the greater risk to your marriage was the damage caused by handing your wife over to a "posse of snakes." [as NG so aptly put it]

And she may even brush this off now as you are doing. The reason is because she is in the fog. But when she comes out of the fog, she will be struck with the gravity of what happened.

You invited this guy into the bedroom to share your wife. You gave her the drug and even took pleasure in watching her take it.

Forgive her for what?

Mel,

I have told evertyhing there is to tell as to what has happed, i do understand how much a problem swingin has been and do not brush it under the carpet. But as i have read on here by Dr Harley the focus has to be on the present and future and no the past as all that does it bring back more pain and resentment. So that is that i am trying to do, one thing that i am unsure of based on your what yoru saying is how does she come out of the fog? and do i sit down and verbally forgive her for saying to me she admits what she did was wrong as well. Please dont see this as me blaming her or brushing under the carpet as well.

She admitted that she took things beyond the scene and had an emotional affair and then physical affair with him without my knowledge or his wifes. She said she feels guilt n not proud about it and knows it was wrong and has hurt me and his wife

So do I tell her I forgive her and that I am the one to blame not her is what I was meaning

It seems as if you're implying that she is to blame here because she broke "swinging rules" by having sex without you there to watch. And somehow that is worse than or equally bad as you having an affair and subsequently getting her into the "lifestyle". I have a strong feeling neither of you would have ended up there if it weren't for you. So stop the crap about forgiving her. Maybe later, down the road you can deal with that part. But deal with the main cause of all this first. YOU.

I am well aware of what Dr Harley says so don't try that with me. And he does not advocate sweeping problems under the rug. He advocates complete and radical honesty about the past. You have not only swept this issue under the rug on this thread, you were extolling the virtues of swinging in your first post. That attitude does not reflect a sincere remorse for your crimes or even the awareness that it was wrong.

So, before you sweep it under the rug, it has to be addressed. In order to move on, you have to acknowledge what you did, express an understanding of why it is wrong and pledge to never do it again.


I am not clear on what she need your forgiveness about? She has been having affairs with your approval. You are the one who handed her over to this snake. When you teach a child to steal and he............ steals, do you blame the kid or do you blame yourself?

You need to ask for her forgiveness for dragging her into an adulterous lifestyle. This is all on YOU. She did exactly what you set her up for.

Dr Harley says that a complete understanding of the past is essential in moving forward. That has not happened here.


In other words, radical honesty is required about how you set the whole stage to bring her into your adulterous lifestyle.

I suspect you did this so you could continue committing adultery after you got caught in your affair. If she were involved too, then she couldn't blame you for committing adultery and SHE could be the bad guy instead of you. Right?

So no, until you are completely honest about what transpired here and take accountability you can't go forward.

No I am not blaming her she is in essence blaming herself I would what I shouldn't to her to try and take the guilt she feels away for what she did that is all

Its more than a little ridiculous to blame her for not conducting her affair in a way of which you approved when it was YOU who threw her into the affair in the first place.

If its ok for YOU to make up the rules as you go along, it is ok for her to do the same. After all, you told her she was being "close minded." Maybe you should practice what you preach.

The only problem I see here is that you got hoisted on your own petard. Can't blame her for that!

Mel

I am not sure what I can say I have told everything, acknowledged and admitted that I am to blame and renounce the adultorus lifestyle so what else do I say n do

When did you do this? And how? You weren't expressing those sentiments yesterday.

Yes, you do blame her. You just told us you needed to forgive her. You blame her for your 1st affair and you blame her for not conducting her affair according to your standards.

I would focus on your side of the street Dave. Stop setting her up in situations where she is doomed to fail.

Dave, here is the problem. You are still not honest. You contradict yourself with every new post. You say you don't blame her just after you tell us you need to forgive her. You tell us you have renounced swinging when just yesterday you were extolling its virtues and even said the problem was - not swinging - but that it happened at the wrong place and the wrong time.

Telling us what you think we want to hear is not going to get you anywhere. We want to help you, but you have to first get honest.

Help us help you. We can't help you if you keep up the bullsh**. Its not even good bs.

You need to become a better bullsh** artist or get honest if you want to make it around here.

When I said forgive her maybe that is the wrong term, I was just asking if I shod say something to her when she said what she did to me that is all

Mel, I am not blaming her at all, maybe forgive is the wrong word see above. I am asking for help n advice on how to move forward how I can show her what she means to me and help her to drop her defences n negativity to see a future

I don't see any "renouncing" or acceptance of blame in your first post YESTERDAY. Here is what you said yesterday about swinging:


And here you blame her - just yesterday:


So see, what you say doesn't line up with what you said yesterday.

Well, I have told you this already. You move forward by taking responsibility for this whole debacle and renouncing - SINCERELY - your adulterous lifestyle. All I have seen here is a whole lot of sweeping under the rug and no recognition of what you did wrong. Admit that you dragged her into swinging as a way for you to continue adultery.

If you tap dance with her the way you have with us, then she shouldn't trust anything you say or do. The things you say are not consistent or believable.

Your wife was a loyal, brave fearless and loving woman when she won you back from the A, wasn't she Dave?

She MAY. MAY be able to feel that way about you again if you listen up quickly and act faster.

She is going to feel nothing for you right now for three reasons. If you can undo those Three walls, you have a shot.

1) The abuse you have heaped on her in making her perform with strangers is pretty serious and (trust me) she actively resents you for it. And so she should.

2) The snake you handed her over to is a PRO at brainwashing. She was being told by you to swing, and being brainwashed by him. The poor lady didn't stand a chance in a double trap like that. (I will bet a million bucks that he told her if she were his, he'd never let anyone else touch her. Even though he's a swinger he will have told this lie with a straight face.)

3) She doesn't believe you when you pledge to be exclusive forever. We don't either.

As far as the second 'brainwashing' problem goes, women are programmed to be monogamous. Having sex with more than one man forces the woman's heart to 'choose' one of the partners after a certain time.

She is in love with him and not with you because of the trap you put her in. You can win her around and I would do that by addressing your first problem. She needs apologies and offer of amends.

I would apologise for the following:

Your affair
Blaming her for your affair
Asking her to 'move on' and sweep the affair under the rug
Calling her closeminded instead of listening to her concerns like a caring husband
Forcing her into the swinging scene
Allowing other men to abuse her without protecting her
Not protecting her from being manipulated by a snake OM when she was heartbroken by the affair
For manipulating her when she was heartbroken by the affair so you could sleep with OW.

Of course words are meaningless without actions.

To make sure she knows you are sincere, I would offer to take a polygraph so she can ask any questions she wants about your As.

I would also tell her that you are willing to have a post nup drafted up guaranteeing her everything if you ever have another infidelity.

You have spent a long time with your pants around your ankles while your marriage drifted down river, so you have a lot of work to make up for in swimming after it. I'm sure it was 'excellent fun' before the effects on your wife began to hurt you - but its rather heartbreaking long term, isn't it?

That's how your wife has felt the WHOLE time since the A.

Of course there is the chance, that before your first A you were loyal, brave fearless and loving too, Dave.

Maybe you want to be that man again. The man who would kill any man who approached his wife in lustful harm.

Your call.

thank you for what you have written and i do fully understand what you are saying, taking a polygraph in the UK is not very easy at all, am not sure what the law is like in the uk post nup, and yes this is heartbreaking

i do want to be that man again who would kill any man who approached my wife in any way shape or form

Who needs porn when you have the real live thing going on at home with your wife and buddy? Swinging and porn...same thing except one is live.

You treated your wife like a porn star and now she feels guilty because she was not strong enough to stand up to the man who was supposed to protect her. Her husband.

At least the OM took the seedy observer out of the equation.

You are surprised that she did not remain loyal to you and your rules?

pokerface you seem to have little understand of what swinging actually is and what goes on, whilst i am not condoning it now you have a picture that is very different from the reality

What did she do to you?

bliss, he means "when she said what she SAID" to me.

It's an English thing. You wouldn't understand.

Taking polygraph is easy enough in the UK. Google "polygraph testers UK" and find one in your area.

A recent case between a divorcing couple made post-nups legal in the UK. As long as both parties entered the agreement without pressure, and as long as all assets were declared and none hidden, a court will honour a couple's wishes for their assets. (A post-nup can never apply to child custody issues, which must always be decided by a court in the interests of the children, during divorce.)

Again, google "post-nuptual agreements UK law" and you'll see for yourself.

You people need to learn to talk regular-like.

That is wonderful news, Dave. The first step is an honourable goal.

But we are going to hold you to it with proof, you understand.

Because your resentful, hurt wife will need proof. Her feelings have been burned away by abuse and she will need solid facts to base her trust upon.

The BWs on this forum know exactly how hurt she is and exactly how vulnerable and desperate she was when she agreed to swing.

So we are your best insiders as to her heart and head. And I'm telling you, she'll need to see proof.

Being in the UK is no problem re taking a polygraph. I am a fellow Brit and I live in Liverpool. A simple google search turned up a reputable accredited firm in Manchester just an hour away when I needed to set one up. Even if you can't find one in your neck of the woods, take a day trip to Manchester with the missus. You can take her to the curry mile afterwards for a date.

Even if the only Polygraphs available were in the US, you should be willing to book a trip if that's what its going to take.

As for the post nup, call a lawyer and find out the info you need.

You have done MAMMOTH harm to your marriage and it's on you to get off your backside and sort it.

Luckily you are in the exact right boot camp for that. MB shapes us into marriage warriors.

Are you saying that sharing your wife with another man and watching is not like porn? Because everyone agrees?

Dave I told you that us BWs were your best resource in understanding your wife's mind.

Pokerface has just given you a GOLDEN insight and your foolsih defensiveness is preventing you from seeing it.



He was alone with her. He made it romantic. He was filling her lovebank while you were making her the extra in your sexual escapades.

The one who was only good enough for being pimped out in exchange for other, better women.

If you want to understand her, you will have to start LISTENING.

And stop defending the swinging. The very fact that it was not exclusive is what makes it pornographic. Pokerface is not imagining anything other than what you told us.

All BWs, me, Pokerface AND your wife - are deeply hurt when a man tells us we are not good enough to be the only one.

Then you made it so she was disposable enough to give away to other men.

Pokerface is giving you an ACCURATE summation of how hurt your wife is and how quickly you need to remedy this.

i was referring to what she said to me not as is an act that she did, i mentioned what she had said in a previous post

I can see how it could be viewed as porn be we are not talking about a singular man in the room here whilst i just stood on the side and watched, we are talking about multiple couples all together

Nice try, but that is still watching, Dave. Take the 2x4s on the chin and all will be well.

indie just to make you fully aware this started as her chatting online with him more and more each evening over a period of 3 months, she then went to see him as a shoulder to cry on and ended up having sex with him without his wife or me knowing.

I certainly am no longer defending swinging at all with each passing hour i dispise it more and more for what has happeneding, i just want to know what i must do to win her back now that all contact as stopped with the swinging scene and the other man. Like i have said right now i dont know if she is fog or widthrawl, she says things like she doesnt love me etc but she cares for me, she has said she is seeing the changes i am making and that to let time tell

Dave. I keep posting to you because you are still here. Maybe there is a chance that someone at some point will say something that suddenly makes the light bulb go off.

Indie is spot on. I'm thinking about this through your poor wife's eyes. You don't seem to acknowledge that you forced your wife into this decision to swing when you said that she was closed minded. She did it for you and now feels like crap while you are talking about forgiving HER for breaking the stupid rules when she didn't want to play to begin with.

I am seeing it now through her eyes and about to make the apologies that indie suggested

Of course she does not love you right now Dave. She resents you for putting her into a position where she turned into a liar.


Have you apologized for treating her like a porn star...in her eyes that is what you did.

All adultery is totally despicable and I certainly am not unaware of the pain you are experiencing.

Its just that your pain doesn't really matter in regards to your PLAN right now. You will get nowhere with your wife talking about this pain, just because you didn't calculate on being hurt in the same way you were already hurting her.

In fact this pain may just be the best thing that ever happened to you. Before this happened you were living a pretty horrible life, with horrible friends.

No matter what happens, the only way is up.

I would embrace the pain actually, David, hon.

I'm beginning to see your justifications and excuses fall away rather rapidly...

..Which means the pain and guilt may bite hard quite soon.

Just remeber that these feelings will not break you, they will help you and you'll be OK.

As long as you keep on plan.

indie i totally agree with you and now i never saw the pain i am experiencing now, and yes from everything i have ready i know main pain doesnt matter and it one think i havent mentioned\brought up etc, i try not to break down in frton of her now and just keep stopping LB and fufill EN

indie, thanks and i the pain and guilt is biting very hard and i try to keep it inside myself and not break down in front of the women i love. I know these feelings cant break me although they feel like they can. What i want to know is what plan should i be on

I have made the apologies that you suggested indie as well now she listens and seemed to accept them saying there was no need as that is the past and what happened happened

Plan A to win her over and protect her, combined with the measures a repentent spouse should show in the recovery plan.

The first job was to stop you sounding as entitled and foggy as you did in your first post, which seems to be working. You will prob sound a lot more palatable to your W now. But she won't make it easy for you. You will have to be calm and not get upset.

I hope you're for real, Dave. We can help if you are.

Indie, I am very real and so grateful for your kind, sincere and wise words of advice so I just keep plugging away at plan a then? Which I have been trying to do even though she says she doesn't love me find me attractive etc which cuts me to my soul how do I handle the fact that she feels anything I suggest is just pressure, like if I even attempted to ask her to fill out the LB or EN forms? Also at the moment been I separate bedrooms as well there is no way I can fulfills SF and affection is hard with no physical touch unless you can suggest alternatives thank you

Any where I can read about What measures I should show in the recovery plan?

You tell us, but have you explicity told your WW how going done this road from the very beginning was wrong?

You posted her how great it was for you and your WW to have an open marriage until the affair.

It was not great from the fisrt time that you swung. From that first time you that you swung you just paved The Road To Perdition.

Yes I have apologised to her see previous posts

All what you say means that she was watched by you and a lot of other people just like a porno film in a movie house.

You set up your WW to be a porno movie star. Every week to be cast with another leading man to do her in front of you. Just viewed live instead of on film. Then you let OM take her out of the room out of your view and ability to protect her to let them use her any way they wanted.

Men don't share their wives.

Ok ok we have been down this road on the thread i don't know what your expecting me to say to you, there are only a few people so far that have given constructive advice rather than just bashing me, right now I feel like pluging a knife into my heart and don't take that remark lightly because over the past few weeks I have taken a knife to myself and only the happy memories have saved me, so wanna continue and bash me then fine

I believe the expectation is that you will stop denying the truth. It is not bashing you to say the truth. No one has bashed you on this thread.

What truth do you want I was bad evil n wrong I have admitted all this , I have aplogised to my wife, only indie, gamma and a few others seem to be actually helping me, if you want to hold the handle n pluge it info ahead but by god as my witness I really am starting to get lost with what you want from me, while your arguing this with me on here MY marriage slips away and I want to save it

I agree that arguing is a waste of time. So why do it?

If you have accepted the truth, as you say, why are you arguing with posters about the porn aspect of swinging? If you have accepted the truth, as you claim, what would there be to argue ABOUT?

Ok swinging is porn evil, I admit it, it's adultorus and now form should ever be allowed in a marriage

WOW, did I hear the earth rumble?

HELP

Dave. Do you see how it feels to be forced to agree with something that you don't agree with?

Are you starting to feel resentment?


Only thing is that swinging really is the same as porn and is a killer in marriages. I just want you to understand that and not just agree to appease us. It is really important that you sincerely get that.

How are you going to prove to your wife that you will protect her going forward? She needs to see "actions" as well as words of remorse.

Have you read about the policy of joint agreement?

Pokerface, I have read so much it hurts my head and I am asking for advice in what I should do, indie girl says plan a which is what I thought are you suggesting something different? you have to remember what I said that at the momens she doesn't love me etc and anything I seem to say/suggest to her she says is more pressure

Definitely Plan A.



The Policy of Joint Agreement
Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement
between you and your spouse.


This is how you need to start living your life. This is how she will start to feel safe that you won't coerce her into doing things she does not enjoy.

Policy of Joint Agreement

my suggestion would be to plan A and prepare a list of EPs that you will present your wife showing her what actions you are willing to take from now on to make her feel safe in the marriage. I get the feeling that your wife wants actions not just words at this point.


EP stands for Extraordinary precautions

Start with the precautions you didn't t take that led to your first affair then move on to the precautions you need to take to repair the damage done since then including the swinging scene.

For example if your first affair happened because you let another woman meet your need for admiration by you accepting compliments from her your extraordinary precaution would be - I will not allow any woman other than my wife to compliment me.

If you had Facebook interactions with other swingers your extraordinary precaution should be - I will permanently delete Facebook any and any other social media site where any person from the swinging lifestyle could contact me.

Other suggested EPs would be

1) change contact numbers
2) give your wife all passwords to your email accounts
3) delete/destroy any photos you have of any friends from the lifestyle you are getting away from and any online photos you used in your swingers ads/profiles.
4) will always let your wife know where you are and always be available for her to verify where you are.
5) No more nights apart EVER.
6) will avoid any inappropriate contact with any other woman and will let your wife know if you have any inappropriate contact with anyone.
7) no opposite sex friendships


There are plenty more EPs you can add to give your Wife some security, just remember they are EXTRAORDINARY precautions, some might sound obvious but they still need to be written down.

As far as plan A goes, do you have any idea what your wife's top emotional needs are?? What do you plan to do to meet those needs?

Waywards often put up a resistance against their spouses when it comes to plan A but if you carry on doing it and hit your wife's top EN's regularly and consistently you will definitely start to see the positive changes.

How about start with an apology letter to your wife taking responsibility?

Post it here first for feedback.

This already been done verbally now, see posts above

What was her reaction to the apologies? Like I said, she's unlikely to make it easy for you, but keep plugging away.behave towards her the way you did when you were courting her.


That's just a natural side effect of another man filling her lovebank. It cancels out yours. Very normal. You just need to fill it up again, court her, Plan A her.



Ah bless you, a foggy wayward isn't going to sit down and fill out forms! You need to meet her top ENs on a guesswork basis. When you were courting, what made her fall in love? You might also ask her conversationally what sort of things she would like more of. If she just says she doesn't find you attractive, just nod and say you'd like to hear what she needs right now.

Behave just as you did way back when, when you first won her. I doubt you walked up to her and had SF, you had to win her over with conversation and affection and being a good catch.

I'm going to hazard a guess that SF isn't a top EN for her anyway. I think, like many women, she enjoys it but mainly for the very specific type of admiration and affection it gives her.

You can meet those two needs without physical touch. And even if she does have a high SF need then she won't care about it while her lovebank is low.

And start welcoming the bashing!!! Lots of fine posters are still talking to you and willing to bootcamp you. I would only start to worry if they go away.

And calm down. Panic will get you nowhere, you have a plan.

Can you list some EPs that you will offer your wife?

Other posters have made excellent suggestions.

EPs make BSs feel safe - this is a way of showing affection AND remorse.

she listened and seemed to accept them and what i was saying and apologising for, all she was that was in the past and history and to focus on the present as the past cannot be changed.


That is exaclty what i want and am trying to do, i realise she has a lot of defense walls in place and i just have to keep plugging away at them. Glad to hear someone tell me its normal and not peronsal as such.


Yeah i see that as well and trying to use guess work on the EN's which i think are Conversation, Affection, Sexual Fulfilment, Admiration, in general her complaints about me have been me not helping out and her feeling like a single mum as well. So i have been working hard on conversation and this is something the counciller we are seeing is trying to get us to so that she feels realxed, calm, safe at home with me. The affection need i obviously cant fulfill with touch etc but i am giving compliments and tell her i love her etc, SF is definately out of bounds right now. I will try asking her about what she needs right now but from previous conversations she has said she wants peace\calm\safe friendly home and atmospehere and to not feel frightend\scared by my reactions as well.

See above

- ok and yes i agree at least right now its off the agenda

which two were you refering her to



Thanks and yeah i know, i guess its the emotional roller coaster i am on internally, so if i have offened anyone who is replying please accept my apologies and try not to take it personal i do see the help you are all trying to give me.

This isnt very practicle due been a business line as well, but i have told her she can check whenever she wants to.

I have done this and her response was that she wasnt interesterd as she knows what its feels like to be snooped on after i had done it to her.

Again this has been done and all profiles etc have gone.

Doing this if i go out for a walk round the block to calm down or a drive i tell her before i go and where i am going.

I dont want any nights aparts the only times this happenes is when she has gone to visit her father with our son.

Again this is something i have told her as well.

The only friendships that do exists are mutual friends who are not in the scene\lifestyle.

One thing i was doing on facebook when the bomb was dropped was i constantly posting how i felt\poems etc and tagging her in them. As a result she deactivited her account telling me she was feeling so much pressure etc. I apologised for this and said it had been wrong and that it wasnt meant to be pressure just me trying to tell\show her how much she felt but i achkowledged her feelings. I said if she did go back on facebook i promised to not post etc but she said she didnt trust me etc which i understand. Yesterday i noticed she had reactiviated her account, i have removed all of the messages etc that i had posted and have not said anything about notcigin she has reacctivated her account. I think and someone tell me if i am wrong that this may be a little sign from her of feelign safer and starting to show some trust.

There have been other little signs i think as well that i say nothing about and just take as positive such as when she moved into the spare room to start she always had the door shut when she went to bed, now she starts to leave it ajar. She was comfortable with me seeing her in her PJ's ( they are quite skimpy) now it doesnt seem to bother her. When she takes the washing in she still folds my things in a separate pile from hers and doesnt iron them, when i iron my and our sons i have offered to iron hers but she says she doesnt want me to so i dont but i always ask, but to start she would take her underwear and our sons upstairs and just leave mine. Now she has started also taking my underwear upstairs as well. As i say they all seem tiny signs that i see but dont saying or raise anything about.

One thing i have personal started doing is writing a journal just so i can put my thoughts\feelings down and let them out which i think is a good thinnk as well. I have also started writing down all the things i love about my wife some of them are silly ones etc but it feels good to write them down. I do recognize i have a long road ahead and everyday before i say anything i do through the LB's in my mind first to check what i am saying, a big one has been my AO which have made her frightedn\scared of me which she told the counciller and i have acknowledged this and actively trying to stop. The counciller has said that when i have my next session alone with her that is something we can deleve more into but until then we have all agreed that if my wife feels that i am getting angry etc the sign she will give is to screw up a piece of tissue\kitchen papaer\tolet papaer etc and walk away as my wife said she doesnt feel comfortable saying anything as in the past when she had said something that had got me worse. So i am actively trying to stop the AO myself by stopping deep breathing etc, also i have an elastic band on my wrist witch i twang when i start to feel things.

Interesting thing the counciller had said in our last session was that whilst my wife had said thing in the past and they hadnt got through etc and made me worse was that whilst in the past i hadnt recognized by issues this time i clearly was and that i need my wifes feedback as well and we are a team, which my wife has agreed with and to.

I don't like this ONE BIT. It's been bothering me since you posted it last night. Huge red flag.

She knows you're trying to win her over so she suggests one way to do that is to avoid snooping. Because of how it makes her feel. Poppycock.

Lets remember this guy is probably a serial cheater and an accomplished wayward. He has had a lot of time and opportunity to brainwash her too. I would bet there's a secret IM account or a secret affair phone in which they can stay in touch.

What are your snooping tools, right now?

Remember a huge part of your job is protecting her - from herself and the addiction she's built up, and from this snake-man.


(Well done on offering transparency, though. though she doesnt value it right now, it makes it harder for her/snakeman to demonise you)

No what she said was she didnt want to snoop on me as she knows how it feels to be snooped on.



I agree and have found at since from various source this is not the first time he has done this.

been a computer developer i have everyong on wifi records, and phone etcs any other tips?

- thanks

Sorry that's way above me! what are wifi records? can you see everything she does online, like with a keylogger is what I was getting at. What can you see on her phone? The records?

If so, that's pretty good. I would also put a Voice Activated Recorder or VAR in her car and in the house where she would talk on the phone. And a GPS in her car or on her phone.

A VAR is the usual way to find a secret affair phone. And they usually talk in their car or when you are out.

Does she ever go out without you being able to confirm where she's headed?

One huge one.

Seems as she does not want to accept the offer from her BH to be transparent because this WW does not want to do the same.

Makes me think and fear that she is hiding contact and other things.

Basically I have everyting tracked n covered, have managed to find out through other sources though the the OM and his wife ate quoting their jobs and going round the world for a year, sounds like him tryingto run away and convince his wife etc

Installing a VAR is pretty hard on the UKand can actuall be used against me in court Si just going to have to trust my wife now

Well I have given them to her whether she uses them or not is upto her a guess

Installing a VAR is not any harder in the UK than it is anywhere else in the world. You are throwing up "UK" objections to things like this and a polygraph test hoping that nobody here will be able to say any different - but you're forgetting that there are people here from the UK who have done these things!

I've used a VAR in the UK. You need to be very careful not to get caught because you want this to work. If the VAR is discovered you will not get any evidence.

Don't make excuses about being landed in court. Do you really think your wife is going to take you to court and give evidence against you on a witness stand? Do you think she wants to be questioned under oath about her affair? Because that's what bringing a case against you will allow you to do.

If the car is in your name, it's legal to have a VAR in it anyway.

Stop making excuses - and for heaven's sake, DON'T plan to trust your wife. Where has trust got you so far? Remember, you'd be a fool to trust an active wayward! An active wayward is a liar and deceiver!

Dave. Plan A is showing your wife that you can meet her needs and be the husband she wants and respects.


If your counsellor does not have a "Plan" to teach you how to stop your AO then I would enroll in an anger management course. Maybe do this in addition to delving into it with the counsellor.

Enrolling in an anger management course would go a long way in showing your wife your determination to change and get control of yourself. Taking that step is an "action" ...not just words.

Is your son also frightened of you when you get angry? Is snapping a band around your wrist really going to teach you how to get a handle on your anger? Be honest with yourself and do whatever it takes to clean up your side of the street.

Pokerface, the councilling said in our last session with both of us that she would help me with my anger management in my solo session, so this way at least my wife as heard this as well. My son doesn't have any issues as the AO only occur with my wife, the elastic band is a well know physiological technique as is really a tempory thing

You dont seem to understand that your wife is untrustworthy because her lovebank is over the threshold with OM. this makes her an addict.

I am in the UK and found buying and using voice recorders very easy. There is is no need to 'install' them, you just switch them on and put them somewhere discreet.

I am not sure what type of legal action you think will result from using a recordable device in your own home and property. What law are you breaking? What are the penalties? 'Used against you in court' - what does that mean?

And a GPS in your vehicle is a common security method in case it is stolen, anyway.

good points and will get onto this as well, there has definately been now contact though via pc's mobiles for several weeks now.

One thing i found out about the OM and his wife through the grapevine so to speak (and i thought i had posted this) is that they are both quitting their jobs to go spend a year travelling the world, to me sounds like he is "running" away now and trying to woo\rebuild with his own wife after every and leave the mess he has put me in behind.

That's great but cake eaters are just as happy with naughty pics and email contact or phone calls as they are with in-person contact.

I doubt this serial cheater has reformed and if he wants to continue indulging in contact with your wife, he will do.

If he has access to phone, email or any other kind of contact with your wife he remains a danger, even if he is on the other side of the world.

Be vigilant!

I take it you mean the OM been the cake eater ? so any suggestions as to things i can do and show wife to win her heart back, at the moment as i say she says she cant see a future together, and that she doesnt love me , but has said if i am not willing to just let her go then she will give it time and see how her feelings change? so how do i captilize on this. Like i said before i think we have gone from "i want a speartion now" and no counsilling to we are going to councillsing and she is no longer thinking separation and saying to give it time.

I took it when she said "if your not willing to let me go" as in that she can see i am fighting for her and not just giving in, and she hasnt walked out of the door or continued to look at separtion etc and still in the same house and gradually we are are starting to have normal conversations and she seems to slowly be relaxing more with me.

All waywards are cake-eaters. They want to have cake at home and eat out too. You were doing this yourself until this painful event made you clamp down on it.

When I say 'cake eaters' in the previous post, I mean OM AND your WW. OM knows how to get cake wherever, but he has spent time grooming your W, and may not give her up that easily. Obviously it's excelent news if he does.

Then there's your WW. In spite of her talk of counselling and acting closer to you, you should not trust anything but the proof of your own vigilance. Since she became addicted to OM, it's perfectly possible that she enjoys you as home-cake (your role as father to her child, financial support, affection) but still craves his attention on the side. It is what she was doing during the A, after all. This is why most waywards are happy to carry on long distance. Since its only side-action, they dont need actual contact.

If you're being fully vigilant, and filling up her love bank you're in a good position to make progress.

If she gets ANY contact with him, her love bank for him is re-triggered and that will either reignite the affair or set the clock back to day one for her withdrawal from him.

So snooping tools are a must. For example, you could catch her enquiring after him to an acquaintance on the phone, or spot her googling him before actual contact occurs. This would prevent her giving in to the addiction and give you a head start.

ok cool so any tips on things i can say and do to convince her to want me more, like i said she feels like there is no furutre me and that i have promised ot change in the past and failed after a short time and she was a fool, how do i convice her it is all sooo real this tim

What things does she cite as the problems? What are her greatest problems with the marriage?

All I keep hearing is she doesn't love me n can't make herself love me, that I have promised to make change before n that after a short time I have gone back and that she has been a fool to believe me. She says I a controlling and afraid of how I react when she doesn't agree to me, that have paid her enough attention or our family etc

She also said "I want to be happy and you only get once chance to do that" god I am in bits I love her so much

Anger is a way of controlling people.



Ask your councellor what her PLAN is to teach you how to control your anger. Is she an anger management specialist? That is what you need.

You may be able to kill the affair but it will be for naught if you don't change yourself.

I'm trying to help you here Dave.

Pokerface has a point.

Your counsellor does seem to know her stuff, she's counselling you both separately and seems to know MB.

But you will want to demonstrate change to your wife in a way she can't ignore.

When people are still wayward and foggy, they act a bit drunk, a bit deaf. They 'cant see' past the way they feel right now. They dont see that present actions will have an effect on their future feelings.

Your wife also has historical reasons to distrust you. So you need to go above and beyond to SHOW her, you arent just spouting words.

I would check if your counsellor is a specialist in anger management. If she is, even then I would still offer to your wife that you will do additional anger management training if that what she wants to feel safer.

Every complaint from her is an opportunity for you to show she gets to have complaints and you will listen. Then go the extra mile to fix it. Without anger!

It will take time for her to trust that this is long term, so you have to make big gestures at the start.

Did you offer her a polygraph and postnup too?

Yes she has experience in ager management and we are to focus on that in our ext solo session. I am and have trying to eliminate all LB and my wife's says she has seen changes in me already, but as I said before she also says I have changed before n then slipped and she feels a fool etc I know your tryin to help n I really do appreciate it

Dotnetdave,

There is no contact with the om or anyone associated, not sure what you mean by triggers? At the moment we have very little conversation, separate rooms, no touching etc

Triggers are people, places and things that remind us of past events. For example houses in which you engaged in swinging parties, or even the name of the town, or the sister of a swinger your WW still considers a friend. As a personal example, the other week my W hugged OM4s daughter, which put me back into a really bad place.

Sometimes couples have to move far away, get rid of prized possessions, drop friends and change jobs just to get away from triggers. Don't Shat where you eat, it gets everywhere.

The sad fact about swinging is that it just seems like a way for alpha males to sample other males spouses with seemingly no downside. The guy finds out too late that his spouse is taken with women or has fallen for some guy, while he is separated out as one of the goats. Notice that ADs for swinging events always list no single males, clearly a mans W is his ticket in.

God Bless
Gamma

Indie

I have offered both and she says she believes me and doesn't want a postnuptial she said "i don't want any agreements. I just want you to see why I think the way I do" which I really do and said I do to her. She doesn't seem to see that present actions etc can affect future feelings no matter what

When you say go above n beyond to show her I am willing to but I just don't know how

Offering actions is good and that's what you've done. She wont believe you overnight.

Do you think you can give us a list of her top ENS? Can you guess them?

I got all the same fog babble that you are getting now. Not in love with you, just want to be happy so on and so on.

Most likely, your W thinks it impossible that she will actually fall back in love with you again. Until MB, my W thought the same thing. What she didn�t understand is that feeling do follow actions and the LB concept.

Even without REALLY understanding MB and incorporating it (at the time we were in the middle of a FR) I was able to get my W to fall back in love with me. I took out all expectations of her and just solely focused on myself. I had kicked her out of the house after dday #1 and we were not living together.

Pressure never works. Pressure only pushes them away. I took every opportunity to prove to her I had cleaned up my side of the fence. I took every opportunity to deposit as many LB units as possible without ANY pressure on her.

Over time, she fell back in love with me. One of the most comforting concepts of Dr. Harley�s that is SO true is that Feelings Follow Actions. Remember that in your darkest moments.

Also, remember there is no guarantee of ANYTHING right now. Best thing you can do is follow the advice given here, just focus on controlling your own actions and let the chips fall where they may.

AND, if and when she decides to actually start R with you, that is only the beginning my friend. R is a long, long, long road. Be prepared for the roller coaster ride of your life.

You have to prepare yourself to be the best you can be for YOU and your future however this goes.


Neediness = MAJOR attraction killer. Have some self respect and boundaries. She will respect you for that.


That is really all you can do. Remember: Feelings follow actions. Right now, her actions are following her feelings.

I would say affection, conversation, family, honesty, the affection is hard as she seems to not accept and/or want it and conversations something I continually trying but it's like pulling teeth, she doesn't seem to like been alone with me and either always makes sure our son is about or makes an excuse to leave the room

Would it help if I sent her a link to the site / basic concepts/ LB/EN etc or print out the forms and just leave them where she could see/find them?

I just bumped a thread in the Recovery Forum titled: False Recovery.

Check it out.

will read it now

dotnetdave --

I can see that you want to wipe the slate clean and just start from here and now. You just want to move forward, but what you aren't realizing is how very important it is to acknowledge and reprocess how your thoughts and attitudes got you to this point.

We are not big believers in navel-gazing about childhood and how your family-of-origin messed you up. But we are big believers in analyzing your CURRENT thought processes and attitudes towards marriage.

So answering and considering Melody's questions is the most important thing you could ever ever do if you want a restored marriage. And you have absolutely no idea how very lucky you are to have Melody guiding you through that process. Do not ask her to leave!

My questions for you are these: What does a restored marriage look like to you? What role does swinging/fantasies/adultery/porn play in your restored marriage? Will your wife post here? Do you know what your wifes most important emotional needs are? Has she (or you) completed the questionaires? Would she participate in MB counseling?

Develop a thick skin.

If you say 'Good morning sweetheart, did you sleep well? You look beautiful today' and she gives you a response that is sarcastic/moody/monosyllabic or she flees from the room.....

You have still met an affection and admiration need. Two needs done!

Her wary reaction is up to her and will take to time to change. The key thing is that you are meeting needs with no expectations.

As long as you can say each day that you've met her ENs, haven't lovebusted, protected her from OM, and kept your own boundaries with women....

Then you're doing it.

In fact, its quite common for waywards to push away when they start to feel things for their spouse again. Its confusing for them.

If you give us some examples of interactions, we can give you pointers.

But I too am q concerned about the possibility of an FR and ongoing contact so keep your eye on that.

What does a restored marriage look like to you?
just me my wife n our son, been able hold each other, gaze in eachothers eyes, walk hand in hand, grow old together n never be apart

What role does swinging/fantasies/adultery/porn play in your restored marriage? Absolutely no role what so ever just me and my wife

Will your wife post here? As I have said any suggestions from are perceived as pressure and haven't told her anything about the mob site yet

Do you know what your wifes most important emotional needs are? Guessing conversation, affection, famil, honesty

Has she (or you) completed the questionaires? I have but like I said she knows nothing of the site

Would she participate in MB counseling? Well the councilling we are seeing is very aware of the mb way

[quote=indiegirlIf you give us some examples of interactions, we can give you pointers.
[/quote]

basically i am doing the sort of things like you mentioned, saying morning, night, caying she looks nice etc, thanking her when she cooks, i am actively doing more housework and cookin some meals as well.

Would it help if I sent her a link to the site / basic concepts/ LB/EN etc or print out the forms and just leave them where she could see/find them?

Don't try to "educate" her about marriage builders. She will not be receptive to these tools while she still feels IN-love with OM, and OUT-of love with you.

Work on restoring romantic love with your wife. Court her.
Just like you did before you married her. Be interested in her. Date her. Talk to her.

Avoid heavy relationship discussions. Talk about FUN things. Dreams. Goals. Make her laugh. Be the highlight of her day.

ok cool, this somethign that i excited to do and date and court here again, i would love to book a surpsie meal arrange childcare etc but just feel right now she isnt ready for it

a small update i did ask her if she actualy believed the things i had been saying to her about how i felt and am changing and how much she means to me and did she want to have the feeling back she once had for me and this is the reply i got back.

"it is hard for me to say i believe you as i have hard this many times. i havent been treated very nice for a along time whilch makes me feel a fool for believeing it and still been sat here now"

Now i dont know what other people think but to me i read the underlying message was that she is saying she is believing me and feels a fool that she is no and still been here and not run out of the door. What do other people think to this statement?

ok had a 1hr talk with wife this morning and both of us in tears at various points, i remained calm and gently thoughout trying to ensure no LB.

to sum up, she basically said that she feels a fool for been here now for believing me in the past and she is also very very scared of leaving and been without our son. Her believe is that i will get aggresive\nasty\angry etc if she decides to leave and i fight for custody of our son. I asked if she wants to try and save our marriage etc and that i can be the man she wants to stay with and she cannot say either yes or no that there is so much hurt built up over time just lots of little things as well. She does see the changes in me already buts doesnt know if even with the changes i will still be the man she wants to be with

I asked but having some time for the changes to continue and improve and see if her feelings change etc. To this she said how long does she wait until she is 50? and then live a lie and waste her life. I suggested about 6months and she said more until the end of the year. I said during that time i would continue to keep my changes and improve them and let her see, and that i would keep showing her the respect\admiration\affection etc during that time as well. She said she has nothing to give back right now (which i understand and know comes in time, where feelings follow actions). I did say that if she feels nothning etc could change then she is free to walk away now and to that she said she has nowhere to go. She then said we could talk about this plan and a timeframe with our counciller at the next meeting (1.5 weeks time due to her been on holiday)

So where does it leave me, i am not 100% sure, but it seems and feels like from her txts and talking that she wants to say "we will try and give it some time" etc but without actually been able to come out with the words and say it, so says it in a roundabout way. She tells me i over analysye everything and i did explain to her it was becuase i was getting mixed messages like she would txt one thing and then follow it up with another trying to recide it (she even did this in a councilling session) I know this is going to be hard and i have to gain her heart and belief in me without anything in return which i expect. Whilst talking about giving it some time i did say when we get to the end of the timeframe we review how we both feel and if things are getting better etc then we do another x timeframe and so on. I have also said to her if there is anything i can do to make her feel less scared\frightend then to tell me and i will do whatever it takes.

So thats the situation now, any advice and support on how i can fufill EN's of affection, admiriation, family commitment, conversation etc would really be appreciated. There is definately NO touching allowed as she doesnt feel comfortable with it right now and also trying to take her out on my own is not something she would entertain right now and that makes her feel like i am been controlling and pressurizing

Stop having heavy dull hurtful unhappy tearful conversations with her.

Start having fun playful happy laughing conversations with her.

Do you see the difference?

In the former, she is using it to push her agenda of seperation. She wants you to feel guilty for all your past transgressions so that you will be cooperative and accommodating in seperation. Stop setting her up and HELPING her. Stop having these conversations. You are NOT going to get some kind of magic agreement out of her. You cannot TALK her into reconciling.

Show her.

Go back in time and recreate the environment in which she fell in love with you.
I bet you had fun. I bet you enjoyed the time spent together. I bet you looked forward to the next interaction.

No more negative unhappy conversations. Make her laugh.

- Point noted and understood and will stop, just breaks my heart when i see her so sad and so want to help her.

- I have been trying to do this, even just idle chit chat but she seems to find it really hard to do, and when i do try this she cites how i am prentending to be "normal" like there isnt any issues.

- Yes i can

- Yes i know, this is just so hard and i know i dont have the magic pill (god i wish i did) how would you say i should be showing her though given she seems to reject fufilling her EN's

- Yes we did, to give some background to this that may help with suggestions we met and then after a few months i moved away to london (125miles away) we continued like that for 4yrs she would come visit me or i would visit her ever few weekends. when i went to her we would go shopping or to the moviews etc and when she came to me we would either go out or stay cuddled up on the sofa.

- Any suggestion on how i can go about this with her as she doesnt seem to want to talk\interact that much and when i try i get that i am ignoring the siutation and just carrying on.

Please dont feel like i am putting up blocks to yoru questions just giving real responses and the things she is saying to me. I have asked her to meet me in the local BIG park just for us to be alone in public walking etc, but she wont come and when i have suggested the us going out together with our son she says she doesnt feel comfortable and that it is pressuring her (she brought this up with the counciller as well)

Sounds like you both have a lot of history together both good and bad. From the sound of things, you have a window of opportunity here to win her heart back, which is a good thing.

However, it is going to take a very long time to prove you have changed.

As has been mentioned NO heavy conversations about the future. Keep it light and positive.

Did you read the thread in R about False Recoveries? I bumped it so you could read from others what they would have done differently knowing what they know now. This would have been a huge help for me after dday.

I have a question for you though. These internal changes you speak of for yourself.

First, what are the LB�s you have identified in yourself? and� WHY are you examining yourself and trying to change your destructive tendencies?

- yes i know this so much and i have said in the past to her that i will fight like i never have before for her and our marriage at that if it takes 6months or a year of going to councilling every week i am there i aint giving in, her response is she cant see her feelings etc changed but i am tryign to stay positive with the help of you guys.

- Yep point taken and noted down now, and i am trying.

Yes i have read it and going to read it again as well, picked up on a few things i hadnt said and now said them as well




well pretty much all of them, my worst would be AO, SD, DJ, ID. I recognize these now given everything that has happened my wife has said about these sorts of things before and what i felt nagged me about them and i have not actually ever recognized the issue. When this all hit i took a long hard look at myself and when i found the MB site and read about the LB's i recognized for the first time that i was doing all of theses things. My worst is AO which i am guilty of not staying calm and flying off the handle, putting my wife down, not considering her point of view, forcing my opionon etc on her and other people. Like i say reading about them on here i just so recognized them and felt like smacking myself round the head with a shovel. This was brought up at our last councilling session as well with my wife citing how she had tried in the past to tell me etc and that whilst i had changed for a short while i then slipped bag. The counciller did point out the fact of what has now happened and situation is the thing which has made me recognize them and adress them and that we are a team and that my wifes feedback to me is teamwork. My wife is just frightened of how i will react etc though at the moment and doesnt feel she can say things that i wont like for fear of my reactions. This was why we agreed on the fact that if my wife feals i am getting angry she will screw up a pieves of kitchen\toilet\tissue etc and thrown it down as a sign as she is more confortable doing that than saying something.

I feel just a loser for making my wife feel like and i do beat myself up about it, i am going to working on anger management solo with our counciller to deal with this as well.

Fantastic! Now you are getting somewhere. You are starting to be honest with YOURSELF..seeing the shortcoming you have in your character and making positive changes. Being honest with yourself is absolutely the first step.

I had many of the same problems, Dave. I can relate. I woke up one day and told myself this is not who I wanted to be. This was not the real me and decided then and there to be a better me for ME. No one else. Once I became a better me for ME, I would then be a better me for her.

See the difference? It was life changing for me.

The reason I asked you WHY you were changing these things is very important Dave. If you are changing for HER she will know it. Yes, it is critically important to modify your behavior for your W. Yes, it is critically important for you to modify your behavior for your M.

However, if she senses that you are changing just for her and not for yourself..you know to just be a better YOU!...she may perceive these changes to be contrived or temporary.

After all the bad years, she thinks you are trying to trick her into staying now. It is your job to change that perception.

How in the heck is Dave going to change??? Impossible. I don't belive it. Guarantee that is EXACTLY what she is thinking.

That is why everyone was being so hard on you in the beginning. In order to truly change, we must become humble. Easy? I think not. Rewarding? Hell yes!! I am very proud of myself for who I have become. Others have noticed. Do I have a long way to go? Do I still fight tendencies daily?

Yes.

By becoming a better person, Dave, Everyone wins! Change for you and she will see the difference.

She doesn�t have hope that she will fall back in love with you. My W didn�t either. You made her fall in love with you once, you can do it again.

BTW

I would strongly suggest you drop the councilor like a lead balloon. Read up what Dr Harley's says about them. Way more destructive than helpful. He has written a lot on them.

link�VETS????

They have no idea how to build romantic love and save marriages.

I am speaking from experience. Best thing we ever did was drop our counselor and jump into MB with both feet.

I know and accept what your saying but our counciller is very aware of the MB concept and principles and does use it along with other tools as well depending on the situation. If it hadnt been the counciller i wouldnt be here today even talking like this, so its not something i am going ot suggest dropping or changing, are the moment my wife is beginning to trust and believe the counciller which is a great asset and the counciller is defiantely all about saving and reconciling marriages.

Yes and thanks for the positive, and my wife has said i have to be making change for myself as well to which i have said i am making changes for ME, US and our Family

Yes and this has been the problem in the past i have made changes because she "nagged" without accepting the issues and hence slipping back again.

- I know that to change the perception will take time as well, and she has in a roundabout way agreed to it by saying she is willing to see if her feeling change, as i have read before feelings follow actions, so my changes\actions can cause her feelings to change.

- Yes i know and well done to you, i just hope beyond hope my wife can change her feelings and fall back in love me again.

dave, there is no magic pill to make your wife fall back in love with you today. you have to keep pushing on over time, regardless of how she responds. eventually, if you keep doing it, she will start to feel love again. you just have to keep going. it is good that you are working on cleaning up your side of the street. good job!

yeah i know there isnt a magic pill, god how i wish there was i am starting to develop a thicker skin to what she say and feel like at times she is almost testing me to see how i will react and whether i will give in but i wont.

I accept that keeping up everything and all the changes will let her see and let her insides and heart start feeling the warmth and love again with time and that at the moment she is still clouded by her anger\hurt and negative emotions.

I am firm believer in that you cant control your subconscious mind and sometimes her words\actions are that of her subconscious mind and then she catches herself afterwards and her conscious mind tries to mitigate what she has just said\done.

I am itching to hears peopls suggestions and advice on how i can fufille her conversation\admiration\affection\family needs as well

just re-read this bit, and i am definately understanding the feelings follow actions side, but can you elaborate a little more on how you mean her actions are following her feelings?

yep i know you are and your questions and advice is invaluable

You can meet the need for affection without touching her. in fact, knowing as you do that it makes her uncomfortable, you are being affectionate by respecting her wishes.



You can send this message without touching. He recommends the average husband do the following:





Your wife has given you something that she objects to, the touching so you just eliminate that aspect and use the other tips.

Some other ideas, are helping her carry things, or helping her with household chores. I used to love it when my H worried about me going somewhere after dark, or worried about my vehicle's safety because that said: "You are important to me. I will care for you and protect you".

I have friends who love notes. They can't get enough of love notes, or messages written in the bathroom mirror for them or on the kitchen chalkboard.

- Never thought of it like that

- Onviously the touching parts are out, but i always say good morning, you look nice etc

- Dont tend to have breakfast together as i start work long before her

- Again without the kiss, but do say bye and see you tongiht, love you

- Have tried to call but sometimes no answer and have sent a txt as well

- Yep do this to let her know what train i am and when i expect to be home.

- Have bought flowers nothing big but havent put a card in them etc

- not doing this at present, have to start.

- again not doing this, starting to feel like she could be smoothered.

- I actively am doing as much domestic chores etc as this has been a gripe\Lb before that i was lazy and just sat back.

- obviously separate beds\rooms but i always say night night and i love you

- This would make life easier but we arent at this stage yet.


I do offer to carry things and she says "i am fine i can do it etc" sometimes i still help sometimes i back off. As said i am doing as much household chores as i can one point is when i do ironing she doesnt want me to iron her stuff only mine and sons, and if she irons she does hers and son, how do i handle that as i would like to just iron all but dont want to LB. I have written little notes etc as well and left them in places for her to find, again just very concious or making her feel smoothered by it all.

Any tips on admiration\conversation and how can i get her to "want" to do things all together as family as she doesnt want to be all together at the moment

What is your counselor's plan to save your marriage? Did you know that waywards love counselors who enable their selfish ways especially when they do not hold them accountable for their own actions?


Dave. There has been so much destruction and betrayal in this marriage that I am afraid that just becoming a nice guy who is a great housemaid is not going to cut it.


Call Dr. Harley.coaching center. Your counselor is pro MB and I bet that she would be HONORED to have insight and advice from the man who wrote the book. Reach out to every avenue that you can. Your current path does not seem to be working.

- First stage is to create the warm\safe atmosphere at home so that we can both communicate and eliminate my AO\SD\DJ. Initially the only place my wife felt safe was with the counciller.

- No definately just trying to execute plan A with success remember this only started around 2 weeks ago now in terms of the plan.

I will certainly suggest this to her in my next session I feel like the path and plan is starting to work i just keep making a few mistakes but am correcting them, sure i read somewhere the old phrase (not sure if you know it) slowly slowly catchy monkey as in things take time and patience. As i have been told before all of this didn't happen over night it is a lot of hurt etc built up over time and based on my past performances as well this process is going to take time for her to accept my changes and start believing they are real unlike previously.

There is a reason why there are so many posters here praising the Harleys and MB. It is because they save marriages. They have a proven track record.


I am interested to hear your counselor's response.

Let me put it this way. How many people would use their rational mind to convince themselves that an A is indeed the best option for a M? How many people use their rational, logical mind and convince themselves that lying, deceiving and stabbing their mate in the back is the way to go??

Most people that are wayward are driven by their emotions. This is the basis for how they live their lives and how they make their decisions. This is one way that they justify their actions.

They believe that actions should follow emotions because that is how they FEEL. This is flawed logic in every sense. Hence, �Fog�

Or, taking it a step further, how many people would use their logical, rational mind and think that swinging is in the best interest of the M?


I doubt you sat down and made a list of the pros and cons of whoring your wife out and came to a logical decision that it was in everyone's best interest.

You were using your emotions as a basis to make your decisions to have fun....am I right?


Seems to me she is now just following the lead of what she was taught by you.


Bitter pill my friend�.

ok cool thanks i understand where as rational minds know that feelings follow actions instead so i guess the biggest edutioncal part to a WS is to let the see that their feelings actually follow actions as in the BS doing plan A

Yes i am very very sorry to say your right on that and probably becuase of the emotions that were still in side me from my affair as well, i was foggy and dragged my wife into that fog

- yes and no as she does have i list of very very valid issues as well which i am corretcing for good, AO,SD,DJ etc

dave, you say you are doing the stuff we recommend, for two weeks so far, and you haven't seen any results. my point is that it is TOO SOON to see any results, and you have to keep going. you have a hell of a mess to clean up. keep working your side of the street. it takes a LONG time. weeks are nothing. two weeks is only like day 1, if that. you have years of work ahead of you. not that it will take years for the results you're wanting (reciprocation), but years to rebuild once you get that far. it will take months (and possibly even more months) for what you want right now.

Letty I didn't know I had said that but I am seeing little signs that show my wife is relaxing more and feelings safe. Some of them are stupid little things but still little signs, also there are things she says as well when she lets her defences down that give hope and I pick up on them. I definitely know this is going to take a long time and accept that, the biggest problem to start was trying to get my wife to give me time but now she is saying she is prepared to but not sure how long that time is yet and wants to talk to the counciller about it. So I hope we can get a time frame of around 6 months which I think would be a good start

Bump

I'm glad you are not expecting a quick turnaround.

Your wife will likely be very withdrawn from you while she is processing the end of her affair.

What you need to do is monitor and spy to make sure she is not still in contact with him.

Stop pushing for a deadline or commitment. Just get her agreement to end contact with him.

hiya, no defo not expecting the quick turn around but having to be positive as well when i look back on things 2.5 weeks ago i started with her saying its over i want to leave now etc to where we are today which is started counsilling, not thinking\talking about D and talking about givin it 6 months, so that in itself it huge step, at least to me.

all contact with him has ceased and i am keeping a very very keen eye on eveything as well as i mentioned before the plus side is that him and his wife are quiting their jobs to travel the world for a year, which i am so pleased about. Also stinks like he is running away from the mess and devistation he has created and attempting to convince his own wife, good riddance to the scumbag

Did I lose everyone's help n support???

Did you have a particular question?

How are you keeping an eye on the OM?

People are reading along. You seem to have this in hand. Shout out if you are unsure on any specifics.

One thing I forgot to ask is if she wrote the OM a proper MB NC letter?

We told you what you need to do, Dave. It's your turn now. Tell US what YOU are doing.

I'm cheering for you Dave! You have my support. Just stay open and honest with yourself and continue to work on yourself. It sounds to me like you're doing everything you can.

Good luck!

hi brainhurts, just any advice on ways to fufill EN's would be good etc and what sort of things should i look out for as signs that the fog is lifting etc ? also do people go from fog to withdrawn is is the fog there while withdrawn?

Not sure about your question regarding OM ?, i do have a friend a "normal" friend who i new way before everything who also knows OM. My friends is aware of everything and is on My side of the fence but also agreed to give me what ever information he can pick up for me

No this didnt happen and know people will say it should happen, but NC was done before i even found MB.

Any help n advice reagrding fufilling EN's is appreciated

Well i am pretty much doing the whole plan A , avoiding LB trying to fulfill EN's, taking care of myself and making my a better person.

Thanks

I would start diarying, Dave. 'I did x,y,z for her today, her response was'. That way we can tweak your behaviour as and when if need be. Also, take that list of top ENs and read Dr H's descriptions of each EN and his specific tips on how to meet each one.

God I didn't think of doing that, great idea on diarying them, and will go back through the EN list. A lot of the time I get no response to things I do, but guessing as well this is really early days. I think the biggest thing I have seen is that by not LBing I have seen her start to relax more and feel more comfortable when I am around

Do you have the book Surviving An Affair?

Here's some good reads on withdrawal.
Coping With Infidelity:The End

From reading that link it certain sounds and feels like my wife is in the same position as RJ and slightly foggy to boot so if i am in the state of conflict and she is in withdrawel of some kind i guess i should be somehow guiding her to the state of conflict as well, am sure i have read something on here about doing that, just need to find and read it again

Here you go.
Three States of Mind in Marriage
How One Spouse Can Lead the Other Back to Intimacy

thanks i managed to find them again knew i had read them before and read them again, at the moemnt the hard part is finding how to get my wife from widrawal into conflict, which is what i think plan A tries to do. I am having to basically stand onto of my "Taker" and let my "Giver" show her everything whilst she at the moment is in withdrawl.

So like Indie said what things are you doing?

What are her top ENs?

Is she letting you meet any of them?
Does she need ADs?

i am showing affection, verbally, compliments, trying to make light conversation, doing as much domestic work as i can, doign thing with our son (but she wont join in), leaving little notes, flowers etc

her en's would be Affection, Conversation, Family, Admiration, she may well need AD's as after my affair she actually was diagnosed with depression and went on meds, but god if i was even to suggest this now it would be more painless to take a gun to my head.

doing thing with our son (but she wont join in)

Really? Wow!

Okay my friend, here is your chink in her armor. I don't remember the age of your son, but you should find something to do with him that would attract her to join without being asked. THINK! before acting on this. What does she like to do (regardless of your son or you)? Cooking? Painting? Reading? Exercising?

And for the ADs. Be very wary of that topic. You know that, but I'm reinforcing your thoughts.

Well she loves cooking n baking (she bakes the best) , our son is 11 and yeah am staying well clear of AD

Dave, I know you are trying to Plan A right now and are trying to clean up your side of the fence. Good job.

I am getting a strange sense from you that you have now 'changed' your ways from all your past tendencies. If so, fantastic�.scratches head�.

However, just a few days ago you were very defensive, justifying an adulterous, swinging lifestyle because it was �mutually agreeable�. I was appalled with your initial attitude.

Can people change overnight? Which, it appear you have miraculously done.

MB is an honest program. I hope you are using it as such. It is a powerful program but in the wrong hands it can be used as a manipulation tool.

I don�t know�.Something smells fishy here. I hope the changes in you are real is all I am saying.

And, look. It does absolutely no good to convince any of here of anything which isn't 100% the truth. We don't know you, where you live and have nothing to gain by not believing in you.

This is about YOU..not us.

The key here is being honest with yourself�

Baking? Excellent! This recipe could be completed very easily with the assistance of an enthusiastic 11 year-old.

Easy Apple Cake

Ingredients:
� 2 cups diced apples (or pears or combo)
� 1/2 cup raw sugar
� 1 cup whole wheat flour
� � tsp. baking soda
� � tsp. salt
� 1-1/2 tsp. cinnamon
� 1 egg
� � cup applesauce
� 1 tsp. vanilla

Directions:
Preheat oven to 375. Grease a 9" or 10" round pan with a non-stick cooking spray if needed.
Sprinkle diced apples with the sugar, set aside.
In a small bowl, mix the flour, baking soda, salt, and cinnamon. In another bowl, beat the egg. Mix in the apple sauce and vanilla. Stir the flour mixture into the egg mixture, until well mixed. Add apples.
Spread batter into prepared pan.
Bake for 35 minutes.

It will be what it will be...if you do indeed have pure intentions, then if I can be of help, great.

I won't however help you to manipulate your W into R.

I can honestly say the the changes are real and started them before I came on the forum but have got better advice from all you guys.

I admit I was defensive on the swinging side when I first came on here because I guess I didn't want to hear or face the reality of what it had done, but from all of you I really have seen the error of my ways in that aspect since

I wouldn't say I changed over night and every waking moment is a constant internal struggle to keep myself in check, when I feel down n depressed I remind myself of what I am fighting for and the love I have inside to give my wife n marriage. I know I am becoming a better person for this process n know my wife is seeing the changes as well as it confuses her and makes her wary as I am doing things I haven't before

I accept what your saying about MB and as isaid before after looking at so many other sites it was the one that I "got" and could relate to and am using it for the right reasons n to save my marriage

As god as my witness I am been honest n true and all I want in this world is to recover my wife my marriage and my family

If this is the case, then like I said...GREAT for you.

Someone has to be a pretty smooth talker to talk his W into swinging and I have a keen sense and acute radar for people that are manipulators.

You are clearly a smart guy and very articulate.

Only you know the real you�The mirror never lies.

Changes were real before you came here? Come on man...


B.S. meter is going WILD right now. Go back and read your first few posts and come back and tell me that again.

Sorry I didn't phrase it correctly what I was meaning was that I had read all about LB's and recognised them and started to stop them before I first posted on the forums, so I had started the changes and things like also doing more domestic stuff etc, they forum and you guys have given me much more and also help as well with plan A n EN's

Look, not trying to be a buzz kill here kick you while you are down. I know the sting of betrayal too well.

The only way you are going to find happiness is to live an honest life and be true to yourself. MB can help you find that in your M but it has to start with YOU.

My FWW couldn�t look at her own eyes in the mirror for many months while she was still lying to me and we were in our FR. Since she has come clean and is 100% honest with herself, living an honest life for HERSELF, now she can stare in the mirror all day long.

You were the one to commit adultery first. Now you are scared that you are going to lose your W. I get that.

Those that are dishonest can run to the 4 corners of the earth to get away from others�however every mirror on this planet has the same person staring back at them when looked into.

Maybe you are being honest..again, if so fantastic. Something just seems off here. Be true to yourself and you can never go wrong.

I will take some of these as compliments and thanks for the 'GREAT' I was sort of getting to the point of need at least someone somewhere give me a little pat on the back as its a he'll of a hill I am climbing up.

In terms of been articulate thanks when I stay calm an focused I can be and it's also been a curse as well, as my wife has said in the past I talk in ways that she doesn't understand. It's when I lose it AO that been articulate goes out the window and just get frustrated instead but this is something I am working hard on and haven't had any AO in nearly two weeks now, I keep calm breath deep and failing that go for a walk

I am so been true n honest, I can look myself in the mirrors and yes I see the ghosts of the past their as well which I hate and internally beat myself for. But I also look back and see the love in my eyes n know how true it is can say I tried my hardest today but I will try harder tomorrow, one day she will emerge from the fog and see properly that I have changed and I have waited for her and then we can stand together on the path moving forward to been a true husband n wife again

You know how you are going to regain your confidence? Do you know how you are going to feel REALLY good about yourself???


The answer is: Living and honest life every day. Having HONOR in your life. Being the best person you can be every day of every week. We all make mistakes. We all learn.

And the biggie: Being honest with yourself. I mean REALLY being honest with all your warts and turning them into something GOOD.

I know. I fought the battle. I made the changes.

However my M turns out, I am going to win because I have become the person I have always wanted to be.

Then you can pat YOURSELF on the back because you didn't do it for anyone but yourself. It's called self-satisfaction. And if feels wonderful. That is why I am calling you out. I am not convinced you are really changing. I am not convinced you are really changing for the right reasons. I want to help you for you.

I have nothing to gain here. I just see a confused person in you that just a week ago had some of the most terrible morals seen on this board. I see someone desperate to get his W and Family back. Totally understand. Been there.

AGAIN, just hope it is REAL.

Hey, maybe I am a million miles off on this. I hope I am.

It's more real than I can put into words, it's a long path I accept and there will be challenges on the way but by god I will fight them and come what may I will be a better person, if my wife is at the end of that path or meets me along it then that is fantastic but I will walk the path to the end either alone or together, and at the end I can look back at say who was that person who started this journey

thanks for the recipe, but whilst me and my son would enjoy eating it, i know its not something my wife likes, so maybe baking something she would like to at least eat is a better idea

That has been the problem before i havent changed for the RIGHT reasons becuase i never recognized the problems hence while i slipped back again.



This time i looked in the mirror and hated what i saw, i read the LB's and thought yeah i do everyone of them and what a complete *&%&% i have been. I dont want to be that person I dont like it and sure as hell my wife didnt either, so the changes are for ME and for HER, for US and for my FAMILY

Dave, glad to hear the progress with AOs. I used to have lots of AOs too, but the pain of betrayal is one of the best things for straightening that out, bizarrely.

Keep going, and give us more specifics. Like what was said and done in the morning/afternoon/evening. What she said and did in response. What you have lined up for the next day...

Have you seen this?
Anger Mgmt 101

Nope willbe reading it today

Thanks and yeah getting the AO under control is a big thing for me and I knowny wife. Will give you an update on what is said/done, am taking our son to a scooter park for most of the day (on my own) so will let you know.

A lot of time I say all the right things but get no response or just a mono symbolic answer maybe even a thank you. But I still keep saying them, sending her nice txt messages when I am away etc like I will today

one thing i do have in mind is that in the early days she used to send me lots of "purple ronnie" cards (not sure if US people will know them, they are funny stick men cards\books) I am going to find a generic one to send to her in the post. Also i always used to pick out the romantic love heart sweets and give them to her, so i was thinking of getting some and sticking them inside the card as well.

Good plan!

is that to the card n love hearts?

Yup

I was reading another thread and saw this and is something I would like to do but am not sure if I should right now or whether the time is

Leaving a teddy bear wrapped up on her bed witha card that says "xxx, I love you, but I know you do not welcome my love right now. If that changes be sure to let me know. Meanwhile here's a bear for you to cuddle until you feel you want to cuddle me again".

Thoughts?

No, keep it light, positive and confident.

No sad messages about how she doesn't want you. It will be perceived as pressure

ok wilco so no to the card n teddy bear then

Another good read to help with your anger.
What to do with an Angry Husband

Quick question for anyone watching/reading/helping me every so often (normally after i say or do something nice) like not commuting an LB or fufulling an EN I get a message from her saying "my feelings haven't changed, I can't help that" this is without me asking or trying in some way to ask.

Can anyone decipher what this is and really means? and how I respond to it?

She still sounds foggy. Are you 100% sure there's been NC?

This is going to take a lot of time. You both have been in the swinging lifestyle and that has to have some kind of "brain washing/cult" thinking involved.

Are you bothered because you're changing and meeting her EN and not committing any LB and she isn't reciprocating?

I have found any contact so yes still think she is NC from everything. Part of me is bothered naturally but I surpress the urges to start asking/begging etc and letting the taker in me out. It's just I get this message from her when u either know I am fufulling and EN or situation where I previously would have LB'd and now don't and I am unsure how to respond to it that was all. I have in the past said that feelings follow actions and also I understand her not having any feelings right now based on past hurt n broken promises but that time is a great healer. Just not sure I should be saying something else to her when she reels this standard chant out to me?

Also is it the right time to say to her that this marriage has an unlocked door and she is free to leave whenever she wants to, or us it to early for that?

It sounds to me, also, that there's not NC. Can you check if she's got, say, an affair phone or something? Something cheap to text/talk to him with?

hi dave. H and i have been on a mini-break, so no posting from me.

i would like to know exactly what you're doing and her response. scotty posted really well on this at the beginning of her thread.

example:

this morning when i woke up, i rubbed WWs back and said "i love you." she said, "thanks," and got up to take a shower.

stuff like that helps us "see" what's really going on.

what does WW like to bake? or rather, bakes that she eats?

Checked everyday n I watch her like a hawk and I have found anything, I can see here txt message and pc activity as well and again nothing there

Any change someone can tell me what it means when she says the "my feelings for you havent change. i cant help that"? my take was that since hse says it after i fufill an EN or in a situation where in the past i would have LB'd and now dont that this is here way of seeing what has happened and trying to override her inner feelings changing and the confusion that my actions create. When she says "i cant help that" i think she can but is very scared\firghting to for fear of getting hurt like she has in the past. Would really like other people to give me their impressions and how i shoudl react to it.

Also is it time to say to her "the door of this marriage is open and yoru free to leave at any point" or isnt she ready to hear that sort of thing.

Hope you had a nice time letty, i could certainly do with one of those right now, espically with my wife.



Well everymorning i get up say morning to her, ask if she slept well etc and then after she comes dpown i compliment her on her dress\perfume etc, sometimes i will ask if she has got anything niced planned for the day. I have left her little notes or sent her txt messages just saying nice things on them nothing heavy. I Get no repsonses of comments about the notes o txt messgaes and when i say things, she will either say "thank you" or smile sarcastically or just leave the room and sort of ignore what i have said. Its pretty touch going and get very little response back etc or getting the reponse i have previously mentioned of "my feelings havent changed. i cant help that" i know that she can help her feelings and if she would get into the "feelings follow actions mindset" rather than the "actions follow feelings" i know things would change.



She pretty much bakes loads of stuff and will eat most of it, i talked ot our son yesterday and habvign a go together a baking and he said "dad can be make come chocolatre brownies they are my fave"

I know I shouldn't do this and it would be a LB, but I feel like when she says about her feelings not changed and she can't help that saying to her "if I had a bottle of liquid that would bring your feelings back instantly would you drink it" and seeing want her answer is. I know this would be a LB and not intending to do/say it but just wanted to vent out what I feel

Thanks for that and i wish my wife has said some of those things to me which would have given me a wake up call rather than bottling things up and not talking and ending up doing what she did

You registered here 8/23/2012.

I am not going to do the math but I don't think you have been plan A'ing for 6 months yet. Someone can do the math and prove me wrong.

Is when your WW say's: "my feelings for you havent change. i cant help that" in response to you asking her?

You should not be asking her that.

If her response is unprompted it is her resisting being plan A'd. This is a normal response for a WW. She is still fogged up and will not admitt that when she rewrote her marriage history all that she wrote was fiction to justify her affair.

This is why asking for or listening to such WW comments is pointless.

Remember that Plan A is not about being a doormat, acting needy, but showing your WW that the changes you have made are not short term but permanent by you displaying consistant behavior. That Dr H expects men to be able to plan A much longer then women. You have 6 months of hard work ahead.

Detoxing a WW takes time.

Thanks for that, she says this as I have said it respones to things I have done either fufulling EN's or time when I would have LB'd and now don't. I certainly arent asking her this is I know this would be needy/clingy so thanks saying this. All I have said in the past is that I hear here and that things will take time and I don't expect her feelings to come back over night or in a few weeks. Is this a good response or is there something else I should say or do?

Of course she doesn't see that her feelings can change. So what?

You be your best self/husband and either she eventually feels more for you
or not.

Either way, it ought not to have anything to do with YOUR actions and plans.

You keep on keeping on as you work them.

Yes i know that, but i just found that she only seems to say it in the scenerios like i have said and wanted ot see what other people made of it. Also how do i respond to it or dont i, do i just ignore the comment etc

It isnt changing anything i am doing at all, in my actions or plan, like i said just wanted to get other peoples take on it and scenerios it occurs in and how i should handle it.

If you need to respond to it, you can say "I see." and then change the subject.

Dave I'm not too happy with your snooping tecniques.

Your methods would not pick up an affair phone for example. OM is an accomplished wayward who finds victims on the swinging scene. He would easily be able to bypass your snooping.

If there is ANY contact you are wasting your time EN meeting. We make sure the work surface is clean, before we start rolling out the pastry, right? Otherwise you end up with crud pie.

If you can verify there is NC,then I wouldn't worry about her comments. Someone with a low love bank is feeling empty of love. That is a solid feeling that feels permanent. However it changes entirely when it fills up again. She can't possibly know that, but some instinct is keeping her where she needs to be to get refilled.

That same instinct also knows it is impossible to get refilled if you are at all demanding. So it is also a test. Will you respect her feelings of lovelessness or demand your own feelings be attended to? Begging, as you know is a demand with a promise of punishment. It says 'unless you do as I say, I will make you feel guilty'.

So just respond that every minute with her is a gift. That it doesn't cost you anything to try. Thank her for her honesty. Thank her for trusting you enough to tell you the truth. Tell her you just want her to be happy. That you will always be there for her. Be brief and smile. Smile as though you are merely happy to try and you need no other payment. Show zero interest in hanging around to nag her. Don't search her facial expressions like a man waiting on payday.

Her comments also could be a sign of guilt, due to ongoing contact. When affairs are active, the BS is attacked whenever they do anything nice due to the WS' guilt.

So verify NC and keep up Plan A.

- Not sure whatr else i can do apart from having key loggers installed, wifi tracking software etc etc.

- Do you the reason why she hasnt moved out and is still living at home with me.

- Yep fully understand that

- ok understand

NC as far as i cant tell and find out.

We did have a chat last night at her request and the upshot of it was again her saying "i don't have those feelings for you", "i cant change that". I did say that i dont expect the to come back overnight but will take time to come back. An that we can both do things to bring the feelings back during that time.

She also said that at the moment she doenst know if she wants those feelings back and that she doesnt find me attractive or in love with me and that she feels like she has been on this emotional rollercoaster before and got burnt before when i have promised her the world and she isnt sure she wants to ride it again but will give it time to see if they change.

She did say she doesnt want to give me false hope, or promise me, or lead me on that the feelings will change with time and i said there is no promises all we can do is try etc. She said the best she can say to me right now is that she is been open minded regarding the future. This was what the counciller said in the first session when getting her to stop thinking\talking about separation\divorce and be openminded.

So not sure whether this is good or bad really, i have slept like sh1t and had a real downer. It hurts so much that she can actually make a commitment to trying to save things, last night i felt like dieing or just running away from it all i felt so low.

Stop taking her words to heart. Only her actions matter. The rest will come with time.

Her words are going to reject you - because she does not feel In-love with you -- YET. Let Plan A work for a while and stop trying to take her temperature every day. Stop expecting a quick result.

Look at her actions - she's done NOTHING about leaving. She's there.

VARs and GPS

Nod with thoughtful listening expressions. This is just par for the course. Then get up and do some EN meeting with no thought of tomorrow. Tough, isnt it?!



Sounds pretty good. Someone with a low lovebank has no hope to offer you, because they dont feel any. I would get rid of your search for hope. Plan Hope is what losers do. You are going to ACT, not sit around and hope. Or ask your wife to provide you with hope. And no matter what the result you are going to be proud of your efforts.



You must be more logical. You can't expect someone with no feelings of love to do any more than what she is already doing. Sticking around. Your expectations of her love is like a man expecting payday before the shift is over. At least she gave you the job.

If your feelings are very debilitating, get to the doctors and get some anti depressants. Dont be a hero. Also remember that Plan A is rough on everybody and self care is a must. Be nice to yourself too. Not taking care of yourself/getting meds/sleep/eating is like trying to climb Everest without equipment. And you must go o n when you are in pain. You will be proud of the effort one day.

If you cant sleep the whole night, take naps, or just rests. If you cant site down and eat a full meal, take a small bite of something whenever you feel anxious. Watch things that are really funny.

At the end of six months, you will be a fantastic husband with a fully earned badge of repentance no matter what. You are the person in charge of that goal, not your wife.

It is the feedback you give yourself that matters. Stop nagging your wife for it. If you have fulfilled key ENs, not lovebusted and taken care of yourself and your endurance then youve done a good day's Plan Aing.

She is not guiding here. You will have to give yourself pats on the back, or come here for them (or to get slammed )

Let's remember you are doing this for self respect and to undo what you did. Her reaction to that is totally up to her.

Respect that and stay on plan.

Stop telling her how she will feel. It is highly annoying to be educated by our spouse, particularly about our own feelings. Just tell her you are happy when she is honest with you and you respect her feelings on the matter.

Lexxxy I know and I do try to not let them get to me, with time I get better at it least I can come here to vent. I certainly am looking at the actions and several people on here and the real world gave said about she is still here, as indie says there is something inside her that makes her want to stay she just doesn't know or understand why yet

ok I thought my response had been more empathy but I hear you

What she told you was NORMAL wayward talk.
My wife and a million other cheating wife's have said the same thing.
"I'm not in love with you" "I love you like a brother " " we are like good buddies" "roommates" "I care about you " "I don't want you to have false hope" "can't we just be roommates?"

In the future DO NOT have conversations with a wayward. If you really want to talk to her go bang your head against a brick wall - it will be just as productive.

Repeat one line every time she talks, "I am willing to work to create a loving healthy marriage where both of our needs are met".
When she starts talking about how she doesn't love you, ask "would you like a glass of water?"

wayward fog disassembled and decoded
NEVER take the word of a wayward
FEMALE wayward fig disassembled and decoded
Craziest Things to come out of a waywards piehole

Thanks and its good to here that this is all normal and yes good response,

thanks brainhurts will have a sit and read through all these

Ok point noted i had actually thought my response was sincere and showing compassion towards her.


- Very very tough

- I wasnt searching for hope etc this was just what she said to me, having her "commit" to working on our marriage together wouldnt be like a message from the gods but i know that at least right now it wont happen.

[/quote] - Sorry this was really just be venting and letting my feelings out, if i dont do that here or to a friend on the phone i would exploded. I just try to take things day by day up and down, be thankful for every moment and that she is still here and work from there

small update, yesterday my wife and son went down to london for the day. On sunday my son had asked about me meeting them after work as i work in london and said i would have to speak to mum about it. She had said it would be ok to meet them and go to dinner etc (remember this is the first time the 3 of us have been out in public together alone for around 4-5 weeks, even though i have been trying to do this all summer)

so yesterday i ended up working from home instead due to work related things. I still was going to go and join them later in the afternoon, so got myself all smarted up and smelling nice etc and sent my wife a text saying i was about to leave and was she still ok with it. Her reply was yes she was fine with it.

So went and met them and had a pleasant afternoon walking around shops etc and then went for dinner. During dinner my son was playing about and had a mouthful of water he wouldnt swallow, next thing was he ended up covering me in it. To this my wife actually looked at me and laughed and we all ended up lauging and joking about it (first suprise of the day to see her so relaxed and laughing again with me)

I had got the train down to london and left my car, whereas my wife had driven to end of the tube line and taken the tube. The next surprise was that she offered to drive me back home to the station and pick up my car instead of me going back on the train. I know this doesnt sound like much but i know that been couped up in a car together has been a big thing for her which has avioded at all costs. So for her to offer to drive me back rather than take the train was another suprise and huge step again.

So it her appears her actions are starting to show some signs of something, not sure what yet but trying to be positive.

The final surprise of the day was after we got home, she went and got changed into what i expected would be her PJ's like she has been wearing since moving into the spare room. But she came out in a nightie and knickers, again very relaxed and didnt seem to have any issues been in them infrton of me (another action), she was showing her legs and knickers off to me.

thoughts & comments?

Dave its the exact same as courtship. You just keep going and enjoy the positive signs without presuming too much.

It all sounds good. But its how clean your side of the fence is that matters. Not her reactions.

I will say though, women are usually very aware of what they are showing off and why. And showing your knickers off is pretty intimate.

Yes i know and realise it like coutship again, i really do enjoy the positive signs as well.

So you think the fact that she wearing a nightie with knickers and not long pj's like she has all summer is something she is aware off and the fact she is letting me see her legs and knickers. Of course i say nothing and just observe and keep up my changes and not LB and fufill EN

AS said your day and how it ended are all good signs. Keep up the plan A.

Knickers?

What is this knickers?

Anything like knockers?

Please use English. Instead of English English.

Thank God for Google so you don't have to translate.

- thanks and keeping up plan A knickers is a british english term for ladies panties if that makes it easier lol

Another little update i have found out something more about the weasal OM. A couple we met socially threw OM but are not in the swinging scene we talking to me and asking how things were etc. I got chatting and told them the things that had gone on and also said to make sure he kept his wife away from the weasal as well. He reply was "she knows exactly what he is like he did it to her and her now ex".

A while later i spoke to her and she said her hubby had told her everything and that she was so sorry and knew eactyl what he will of been telling my wife as he had done it to her. Also she said that she had never told his wife that he had been visiting her as "friends" and having sex and that knowing what she knows now she is going to tell his wife.

Also she is going to call me later to have a chat and tell me everything that went on etc and how much of a weasel he was and is and what he will have been telling my wife. She said she doesnt want us to end up like she did as a result of him and that he will have tried to brainswash my wife like he did with her which she now sees. She wants to help us fix things and is preapared as well to have a chat with my wife to let her know what he has done before and what he does etc.

So far he has done this now to 4 couples including us, and seems to prey on vunrable women with marriage issues and woo and convinve them. Whilst non of this changes what i am doing in plan A it means that if this other women does tell his wife it could pretty much destroy him and his ways when she exposes it to his wife. Maybe she can help me and our marriage and at the right time talk to my wife to tell her everything as well.

As I read your post you need to remember that your actions are WORSE and more evil than the weasel OM.

Like a drug dealer that gets his kids hooked on drugs, then upset when they overdose you seem to be more upset at the OM than at yourself for bringing you wife into this "lifestyle".

I've re read your posts and would like to know if you have explained this to your children? Have you told them of what you have done (affair, swinging etc) and how wrong it is?

No we haven't told our son as at 11yo he is way too young to know or understand, I accept what your saying and have admitted it was wrong and now trying to work on saving my marriage. I am furious with him as he pretended to be my best friend and since like I said we are the forth couple he has fone this too. So if the latest couple I have spoke to can help us and talk to my wife that has to be a good thing

...at 11yo he is way too young to know or understand...

FALSEHOOD!

As the father of an 11yo, you are too afraid to explain to him important facts that are affecting his life.

TRUTH!

Nope -- get OFF the subject of OM.
You want the OM to fade into obscurity - not bring him front and center.

You want your wife to FORGET him - not show her what a piece of crap he is.

This is another ploy by you to educate your wife. You want to teach her what a piece of crap he is. Don't make her feel stupid and defend her choice of affair partner.

Be very cautious with this.

ok, i have spoke to the other women he did this to now who has woken up and seen it, she pretty much told me everything that he has done with my wife that i knew and all the things he will have been saying say well and i hadnt even said a word. She has offered to talk to my wife if i want her to tell her what a complete &*&T he is and how he has said and done all these things before and she should believe what he has told her.

He is aware that we are having problems but I am sorry he is too young to know everything and all the sordid details.

Dave,

I understand you haven't exposed your past evil sex life to your son. Because you feel he is too young to understand.
Have you exposed it to anyone?

The impression I get is that you are upset that your wife is having an affair and you arent in control of it.

Your poor son will be terrified of marriage and probably blames himself for your marriage problems.
You need to act like a man and sit down and tell him it is not his fault. We ate having problems because I asked mommy to love other men and when we re married you aren't supposed to be in love with other people. I also loved other women and i was wrong and I will not do that again.

You're wrong. You think he's too young to know what adultery is? What, has he been wrapped in a cocoon, away from every television show, movie, or book that modern "culture" provides that has infidelity as a major plot-device? (To say NOTHING of the late-twentieth-century hijinks of a certain Prince of Wales and his former - now deceased - spouse!)

Dude, he's more familiar with extra-marital sheet-shaking than you blindly deny!

Guys I accept what your saying but please keep our son out of this, niether of us going to tell him all the sordid details. If you read the thread currently I am in plan A and trying to get my wife out of the fog and moving towards me do we can work together to rebuild our marriage

Update I found via snooping that the wife has joined twitter and was looking at OM. I am not that ofay with twitter or if you can message in private etc like Facebook. But I confronted her about it staying calm and asked her if she had been on twitter etc and she said no didn't understand it etc, got her to confirm she not been on it etc and still she said no. So then I asked her why was she lieing and looking at the OM profile etc, basically she was p1ssed off in a big way saying I don't trust her, she feels watched, spied on etc.

I said I did trust her but was suspiouces/paranoid etc after what has happened and how it happened and that I wouldnt be like it if she hadn't done it and also if I didn't love or care about her I wouldn't do it. Said I do care n love her and want to protect her and can't help worrying that OM tries to contact her and that it will time for the feelings of suspicion/paranoia to go.

At the moment she isn't talking to me much so not sure where this was a LB or one that had to be done.

We have told him we are having problems and that it isn't his fault in anyway and that we both love him equally and no matter what happens we will always be his mum n dad.

Exposure to all key people in your lives, and especially the children is a key component of the MB plan. It is cruel to let your son figure out the details of why you are having problems by himself.

Dr Harley says affairs should be exposed to all children over the age of four in an age appropriate way. Not doing so is fatal to the family, the child's upbringing (teaching that lying and hiding the truth is OK) and to recovery.

He says not exposing is often responsible for people not recovering. Keeping secrets is not the mindset necessary for recovery.

However I do think how you expose needs to be handled carefully. Your WWs affair for example. To be honest she is more victim than adulterer because she was led into OMs den. I think she will feel betrayed by any exposure without her say-so and I doubt she will expose alongside you while still foggy.

I have a theory she feels quite angry with you for getting her into swinging and will feel like he has abused then shamed her.

If it were only your own affairs, I would be telling you to man up and face the music regarding your son. But telling only your own As and not the WWs gives the son a misleading impression, and would be a lie too.

I'll be honest and say this is above my pay-grade and you should ask Dr H on the radio about a plan of how to go about it and how soon. Not exposing straight away could be damaging to your wife's fogginess and a way should be found to be honest with this poor kid about how and why his parents have veered so far wrong.

Dave, as you know I am not convinced you are really changing for the right reasons.. but, hey, that is your personal problem, not mine. I am just some random person on the web..right?

What I will tell you is that even a 1% deviation to the MB plan, and you can kiss your R goodbye.


Do you have SAA? The vets here follow Dr. Harley's advice. If you don't follow each and every step, you are going to prove that your intentions are not noble or you are just afraid/weak or both.

Regardless, exposure to everyone is one of the FIRST steps.

Your thread has lit up this board over the last couple of weeks with more replies than many. Why aren�t you taking all the advice?

MB is not a cafeteria style plan. Go over to the R and read about planAprincess. Her H resumed his A full throttle. Many believe this is because she skipped steps.

You want her to be all in or all out? Turnabout is fair play.

I know you are all excited about having this independent corroboration of how horrible OM is.....but you need to get OM OUT of your lives, not invite him back in over and over by talking about him.
She is not going to stop being "in-love" with him because of some words. Stop talking about him.

Being "in-love" or out of love is all about love bank balances. Obviously if OM is not arounding making deposits, your wife will lose the balance for him. In the meantime, you are increasing your account.

Stop bringing him up. I know you want her to hate him but its not gonna happen until she de-fogs. And de-fogging doesn't happen from TALKING.

20years n indie I will reply to you both once I am laptop as iPhone makes it a pia typing and editing replies

Any thought comments on what happened tonite and how I handled it?

Lexxy I have told my wife about any of this information I have found so definattly not talking about OM at all infront of her or with her. Yes I understand the poison he has fed her is slowly draining out of her and I am slowly filling her back with my love by fufulling EN's. Like I say I haven't brought him up at all with my wife and yes I would love her to see him for the weasel he is, I just wondered if this other person who has offered to talk to her would help to defog her by saying how he did the same to her and all the sane things were said

You need to treat her like an addict in that respect. Dont worry about pissing her off as you will have no chance otherwise. If she keeps retriggering you will keep going back to Day 1 of withdrawal each time she looks him up or is triggered.

Dont apologise for not trusting her, her accusation is just the addiction talking. She knows deep down that any normal protective husband would act the same way.

I would just stick to key phrases 'I will do whatever it takes to keep him away from you' or 'I never want us to have secrets from each other ever again' 'I will protect you even if it is uncomfortable for you' then ignore whatever justification she bleats for being addicted.

Exposure is sounding like a very urgent need to get her out of the fog. Has ANYONE been exposed to so they can help you protect her?

Pretty much no 11 year old of average intelligence will buy that 'problems' fell out of the sky and landed on you both. He knows your family is being stalked by some mystery enemy and he has no idea what it looks like or which form it will take when it attacks. He knows you are hiding and lying.

He knows that you are talking down to him because he is a kid. He knows that adults do this to kids when there is something so bad that they afraid of it too.

Having been a wayward, I can tell you that its a big mistake at this point to introduce a woman who will tell your wife that she meant *nothing* to OM.

This will likely induce in her a need to PROVE that what they had was REAL. That she was SPECIAL. She will need to contact him.

Is that what you want?

I know you think its going to click something in her brain and make her hate him. Not gonna happen. This is just not a good time for an ego-crushing...

Dave.
You are NOT in plan A.
Plan A includes exposure.
You drag your wife to sex parties and get her involved in all this garbage and have the nerve to tell your son you are having problems?

So your son should live in confusion? Magical, mysterious problems. I have a 5 year old daughter that understands why her parents are divorced.

So now your wife sees this man on twitter and you are upset.

The same man you encouraged her to have sex with.

You are an extremely self centered man and I are NO hope for your marriage. Your wife obviously sees none.

The ONLY slimmer of hope for a real marriage (and this means no sex outside of marriage) is for you to follow the MB plan.
YOU need to take the first step and apologize and EXPOSE your actions to all close friends and relatives including your son.

I think you don't want to because your like the drunk that got a DUI. You really aren't sorry you were encouraging your wife to have sex with other men, you're only upset you lost control of the situation. Like the drunk that is upset the cop pulled him over.

Seriously, you need to be a man and take responsibility for you actions before worrying about your wife's. Otherwise you have NO moral authority complaining about her affair.

You told her you trust her? Really?

I would say 'of course I don't trust you. Would you agree that your behavior has been anything BUT trustworthy'.

After Dday, I was scared to stand up strong to my WW. Know where that got me? In FR land. You both need to realize there is a huge difference between privacy and secrecy.

Privacy = closing the door when you go to the rest room
Secrecy = signing up for twitter stalking your lover without your H knowing

Carrot and Stick. Plan A but she must know the consequences of bad, dishonorable behavior.

What you CAN deal with is her anger, what you CAN'T deal with is the OM being in the picture.

ding ding ding


Ladies and gentelmen, we have a winner.

Indie, what is he protecting her from?
He refuses to take responsibility for his actions.
He ENcouraged his wife to have sex with other men and is upset she fell in lov with one of them.

He needs to expose this and fully expose his role in introducing his wife to this "lifestyle" and apologize to her parents, his son and his wife. And the apology needs to be sincere. Not his stupid excuse he keeps repeating "we both enjoyed it". It needs to be I was wrong and the "lifestyle " is wrong and against everything the convenant of marriage stands for. I'm so sorry I brought this wickedness into my marriage.

Until then he is just an unrepentant wayward. Two wayward spouses. I feel so sorry for that 11 year old boy

All since I am on phone it's hard to reply to each individually but I will in the morning. But exposure was done to family's (apart from son fully) close friends etc, I also made the apologies to my wife for what happened etc post my affair and I thought we had covered that in the earlier parts of my thread. We had been concentrating on plan A and the things she has been saying to me lately and how I response to them

yeah I realise now is not the right time and the other person also said this but she said when the time is right she is willing to talk to her and tell her every along with the things I am doing like snooping/watching etc is perfectly normal and that she did far far worse

Ok so I pretty much did the right thing by confronting her n asking/telling her

Don't understand the question? Exposure tends to help protect waywards from themselves is all I meant.

Indie did I do the tight thing in terms of asking n confronting her about tonights incident? As right now she has hardly spoke to me since and spent the night in her room, so feels like a step back? In terms of exposure all family's n close friends no and there has been NC as far as I can tell GPS in car as well now, the only incident was like I said her founding on twitter n lying about it and looking at his feed on there

Right you need your supporters to urge WW to stop checking up on OM for her own good.

And your son needs to know what is really going on and that your actions exposed his mother to a brainwashing creep.

Please don't leave him under the very scary delusion that you can't handle the uneventful courses of daily life without running the marriage into 'problems'. No child should believe couples are so incapable of basic interaction for no apparent reason.

Dr H discovered an affair in his family at the age of five. He's always been aware of the insiduous ever present danger of affairs as a result. Learning about lifes dangers has to happen when they happen to us.

Plus once your wife knows her son knows the facts and will never accept OM, she will quit daydreaming about him that much less.

Be careful in not exposing HER as the primarily guilty party though. I would keep the focus very much on your own actions.

No you did right.

Never fear a waywards anger. If you take their drug away from them they all react badly.

You can survive her temporary anger, you can't survive ongoing contact or retriggering with OM.

She's trying to gaslight you into doormathood right now. Its easy to do with a desperate BS (not to rub it in, but she's trying the same technique you did with calling her close minded to get her to swing)

Make a big deal about being cheerful and unapologetic. Continue EN meeting, being confident, affectionate and fun and reply to her complaints with brief unapologetic 'I will do whatever it takes'.

This will make her angrier of course, but she needs to see you won't be gaslit.

Have you read the carrot and stick of plan A?

Standing up to the A, the anger and completing exposure are the stick part.

If you miss these elements and seek only to keep an addict appeased, you'll be in Plan Doormat.

Your son is already 'in this'. Up to his eyeballs. He's a central figure in a family that is undergoing crisis. If you don't fill in the blanks to explain the source of the family tension, he will. And you will have zero control over what he puts in those blanks.

And you can drop the whole 'sordid details' business. No one has advised you to lay out all the 'sordid details'. He doesn't need to know the 'sordid details'. There is an age-appropriate way to explain to a child the fracturing of the family when an affair occurs.

Ok points taken on board, i pretty much got the cold sholder all last night and she spent the night in her room. This morning i got up been cheerful n happy and said morning etc, i got a cold "morning" back so doing as you say etc, strange things was for the first time she makes me a coffee this morning.



yes i have read the carrot and stick of plan A, ok i just fearful that the confronting her from the snooping i have LB's and not doneseomthing.

i hear what you and this is something that we will both have to tell him and agree upon what we are actually going to tell him to some extent.

Your not just some random person you are someone willing to take the time to try and help me and i am really changing for the right reason, i am starting to feel calmer inside myself with each day as well. I dont think i am deviating and doing everything i should be, hence why i come here for validation and verification on things.

I havent read SAA as of yet, i was in london the other day and looked in several book shops and couldnt find it or any of the books recommened like love buster, hnhn etc.

As stated i have done the exposure part and really did thing i had said this early on in this thread, and i thought i was listening and taking on board everybodys advice.

VENT:

Feeling really low today and helpless, wife has gone back to work and son has started new school so am sat at home "working" all alone.

Feel so bad after last nights confrontation and that i have taken a huge step backwards again after having such a wonderful afternoon\evening on monday and seeing so nice signs. Just getting no conversation now and and ice cold atmostsphere. I know its early days and that this is going to be a long touch ride, i have to keep stopping the LB's and fufilling what EN's i can.

Just wish there was something i could do to give her the beacon of light and give her the strengh to see that feelings follow actions and that something as simple as holding hands, a cuddle could do so much. Feel like i just want to go to sleep and not wake up right now

I encourage you to visit your family doctor.
It sounds like you may be suffering from depression.

I did actually go the other week and have various blood test done and he diagnosis was the given everything going on it perfectly natural to feel the way i am.

I admit that i probably am suffering a little bit due to the emotional rollercoaster i am am, such as on monday after everything i felt great and happy and all day yesterday until last night confrontation. After that and today i feel pretty low again :?(

I know ( because you are a man) you think you need to FIX it. Right now!
But you need to get over that.

Yes, you are likely depressed and rightfully so. That is why you need some help managing your emotions. Do you realize in that post all you talked about were feelings feelings feelings? At the very least ask for something to assist with anxiety.

The withdrawal clock has been reset because of the "contact" with OM. Every time she gets a fix, it starts over. That's why she is cold towards you. No brainer. So why would you be expecting anything else?

Your one good day has not reached a love bank balance that would make her feel in-love with you. Keep going soldier. Stop expecting quick results.

She's there. Another Plan A day. What's your plan?

Are you against taking ADs?

- i know and some days i feel good and fine and other really down.

- that was why i posted just to get it out of me, the doctor did offer betablockers would they help?

- ok and i guess added to that was my dicovery and confronting her as well.

- Yeah i realise this and i am still going

- Yep she is still here, at work today, i did say before she left for work she looked\smelled nice, have a good day and not too stressful etc. Also i was shocked that she made me a coffee this morning as i cant remember when she last made me one. There is a small bit of ironing to do which i am going to do, and a few of her things in it. Am not sure whether i shoudl do her things as she has told me before not to do her things so would it be a LB if i did. Was then going to wait till she gets home with our son and see what they want for dinner and do it. Will carry on with a happy outlook\attitude and try to make small light conversation, showing affection\compliments etc.

Any other things you suggest i shoudl do ?

I cant say i am 100% for AD's dont know if its the stigmatism of them or male pride thing or just feeling like a failure for taking them sorry but just been honest.

I know after my affair my wife was diagnosed with depression and went on them and it was the scareist thing in the world for her to admit to and then take, and i was there holding her hand each step.

You can order SAA off Amazon for less than $10. This is our bible for our R. In fact, during our UA time last night, we went back through it to make sure we were not skipping any steps and refresh our memories.

It will take you step by step and give you a plan. It will also help you understand WHY A�s happen and what to do to not only recover your M but yourself.

Having a plan is key here. It will give you something to follow and actions to take. Your world has been rocked. What you are going through is absolutely normal. Unfortunately, an A is one of the worse things a human can experience. Have you read up on PTSD? At one point I thought I was just going to snap like a twig with all of the emotions flooding me.

Hold on for the rollercoaster ride of your life. Early on, I experienced moments of calm between the storms. That was about as good as it got.

What really turned the tide for me and my FWW was when I decided I was going to absolutely show the world the positive changes in me and grew a backbone. I was scared as hell I was going to scare her away by having boundaries. Know what? It didn�t. She started to respect me again. Then over time, she fell back in love with me.

Dave, don�t let her walk all over you. You can only control yourself. Let her know what you will and will not accept and then let HER decide her path. You can�t do that for her. Be positive, be strong, be adamant about your boundaries and desires to do whatever it takes to heal this from your side. That is all you can do.

Get SAA today.

- I will definately get this off amazon is it worth just keeping it to myself for now or leave it out so my wife might say it and either ask about it or pick it up?

- Its actually nice to hear what i am going through is normal what is PTSD? and i know the feeling your taking about.

- Again the last 5 weeks have been that

- Thats great to hear and its exactly how i feel in that the changes and boundaries would scare her away. How did you did you relaise what changes and boundaries to make or is that in the book?

- I hear you and am going to, how did you decicde\come up with what you will and will not accept

I would be interested to hear from any FWW's that can tell me about what your spouse did to guide you from the fog and what was the point\how did you come out of the fog what caused it to happen.

PTSD=Post Traumatic Stress Disorder

I told her that I loved her more than anything, wanted to make up for my past mistakes and have a better marriage than ever.

I also had conditions to even consider interacting with her at all. They were simple and the consequences were if they were broken I was OUT. Period. No negotiations. This was the basis for ME to stay in the M.

1) NC with OM again for life
2) Never lie to me ever again

This was the starting line. Soon there after I found MB. And yes, I would encourage her to read SAA. Once we started our real R, we read it chapter by chapter outloud and discussed it.

Unfortunately, I made some other mistakes as I didn't have MB at the time at dday(kicked her out of the house on dday) and was lead into a FR and it SUCKED. You can read on my thread what happened next.

I realized my boundaries because I looked in the mirror and found my self respect. They were easy to come up with after that.

It's your decision. Dr Harley recommends the following:


I am one of the few BSs around here who hasnt done ADs. And I came very close. I had a few torturous days early in Plan B in which I decided to take ADs, but then I got much better quite quickly. I did a much briefer Plan A than most people though. If I had done more than a few weeks, I would have needed them.

I think your situation is quite severe, as you have your own guilt to deal with too. BS who have been a WS seem to suffer more, though such a thing sounds hardly possible.

If you arent functioning, sleeping eating etc and if you feel more emotional than rational, they may help you Plan A.

As well as ADs your approach must become less based on hope. You must start treating all your wife's signals suspiciously and not tie your feelings to her actions. She will go up and down more than a rollercoaster, and your feelings will plummet with her, unless you march firmly along the straight road of your own plan.

Your plan is to become a spouse ANY REASONABLE PERSON would want and only you control that. You and you alone.

You are fully able to reach that goal and nothing can stop you.

Until your wife is fully signed up to an MB recovery and is out of the fog she is a wayward - anything she says is suspect and likely to be a lie.

As a current wayward her ideal state of affairs is to have you fulfill half her needs and OM fulfill the others.

So if she says she loves you, shows her body off to get admiration, it just means she wants a shot of EN meeting from you. As just half of the situation she loves.
Which is what all waywards want as they are addicted to easy ENs. It doenst mean she has seen the light and will be faithful and only wants you and you alone to meet her needs.

Beware of her addiction and treat it as untrustworthy.

The plan essentially is to get her so addicted to your EN meeting over time that she will obey your firm boundaries regarding NC with OM. If she does not after a suitable period of time, then Plan B comes into effect where she is starved of the EN meeting you provided and hopefully misses it enough to comply with NC. NC with other man is your only hope and over the next six months you must make yourself indispensable to her while putting up with the agony of her waywardness.
the aim is to get her more addicted to your EN meeting than to OMs. Then by standing firm you insist on NC with OM which will achieve her withdrawal from him.

Only after all of that will she become somewhat reliable.

Carrot to tempt her and stick to beat OM away, and stick to beat down her addiction.

I feel exactly the same as what you are saying what i am not sure is if it is the right time to make those statements yet to her as she is currently not in that mindset as far as i can tell and is still in the foggy i dont love you and dont want to be with you mindset, or was your wife in that stage when you made these statements to her.

She was a foggy as London in the spring time when I made those statements. 1 week after dday.

Its an up and down at some points i am rational and can see through the forest and the plan to follow and at other times i get very emotional. Its at the emotional times that i turn to either here on the forum for help n guidance or at least talk to friends to get it out of me and then i feel better.

i completely agree and that is what my goal is and when rational i can see it cleary, just when emotional it sort of gets a little lost so all you guys help remind me

as in cake eating? to the best of my knowledge she has had NC with OM since dday apart from last night looking at him on twitter by no actual verbal\message contact.

If only she would say and do that

and that is what i have been doing as much as it pains me to do.

I know and understand this and know the path is a rollercoaster and its all early days like i says ups and downs and you guys are helping me. I take it form this that now is not the right time to make the sort of statements that 20YearHisotry did yet.

Telling the child is not the WW's job. WW should not be included to add her input. The opportunity for the WW to put a spin on things must not be allowed.

The BS does not have to give details. So stop that excuse.

BS: child your mom/dad has been dating the OM/OW. Married people are not allowed to have boyfriends/girlfriends let alone to go on dates with them. Doing that is called an affair.

Your mom is having an affair. Mom has a boyfriend his name is ....., and mom as been going out on dates with him.

i see but did she actually want to work on saving yoru marriage or was she giving you similar lines as to what i am getting.

A radio clip from Dr. Harley telling children even as young as 4.

The Harley's discuss telling the children even as young as 4 about the affair

Time and distance.

She has to stop seeking information about him - so you are right to call her out on every breach.

Get "his needs, her needs" because it gives you great examples of how to meet those specific categories of emotional needs.

You might also want to read "the 5 languages of love" because it will help you see how she might receive your Plan A efforts. Men and women interpret actions very differently. So your intended impact might be missed because you do not understand how she receives it.

How have you compensated your wife for your affair? Have you reassured her and given her extraordinary precautions against contact with your ow? When is the last contact with your ow?

All waywards say the same stuff. And it is all stuff that should not be considered credible or listened to. An addict is only going to talk for one purpose: "Let me have what I want, and do what I like without losing anything. Don't make me behave. I will blame you. It is your fault. I am not accountable."

Check this out:

Never Take the Word of a Wayward

- which book first saa or hnhn ?

- I read about this and certainly made a lot of sense to me, i mentioned in my solo councilling session as well and the counciller said it was defiantely a book she recommends, but its too early for it yet as we both need to be on board and commited to saving the marriage and working together.

- Yes i did all of this 3 years ago, my last contact with my OW was 3 years ago and involved the police when she attacked me for telling her husband that she tried to contact me again.

so should i come out and say to her :

I love her more than anything, and want to make up for my past mistakes and have a better marriage than ever. There are 2 simple rules for this though and the consequences are if they are broken is that I am OUT. Period. No negotiations.

1) NC with OM again for life
2) Never lie to me ever again

or should i wait until i say this to her, as it could push her over the edge and just drive her away?

Just keep on as you are. Snooping, insisting it stop, putting a stop to it, and don't act scared when she pouts.

Be protective.

Yep i know but should i make the statement as above yet or wait for the time been

I think in your situation you should modify the statement to include you BOTH.
In order to save the marriage WE need to agree to these rules.
Make the commitment that YOU won't lie to her or have contact with any other women, and no other men for her.

I agree.

You both need iron clad EPs.

Yes i agree and dont have any issues with this at all, but when would be the best time to actually say this to her, in her current emotional state given after last nights confrontation has left her very cold towards me or do i give it a little time to allow the general atmosphere to lighten a little.

I wouldn't come down that hard, or expect to be listened to,

I just think its cleverer to paint yourself as protective and loving

If she gives you fogbabble: "I want my cake! Wahhhhh! You are so controlling and demanding" just reverse fogbabble: "Yes I do love you very much and feel protective of you" just refuse to engage.

Instead of an OTT demand or laying down the law, which she could easily turn back on you or which could escalate into a row, walk the walk instead of talking the talk.

If the computer is continually being used to access OM and triggers, get rid of it or password protect it. Don't argue just say you won't aid and abet a resumption of the A.

Take away the drug. While smiling, lookin good and not caring about her hysterics.

I would step up your snooping too, now she knows what one of your tools may be.

Thanks indie and all snooping in place so I will know. I didn't dinner tonight and she said thank you still cold but not as much as this morning. Asked how her day was etc made light conversation and talked about sin first day at new school. All still a little stand offish but hey hoy I am smiling, relaxed n happy and refuse to get down oh and I left a love heart under her door that's says "first love" on it which is was, just a little token

Nice. Cool, calm and clever.

Is that an approval for today's actions no lb and fufulling en

Dave.
If you want to save your marriage you need to move out of state.
Where there is no possibility of seeing people you slept with ever again. And you need to do it ASAP

Yep.



An excellent point. The odds of the two of you running into a former sexual partner must be rather high and would be disastrous for recovery.

This is certainly something I would like n consider in the future when we are both working towards saving our marriage. I know it may surprise you but nobody we have actually lives with 60 miles of where we live

Wow dave .. you have come a long ways since you first started your thread... I am impressed. Regardless of the outcome, you will be a far better man than you used to be. However, I have hope that you WILL turn this bus around.

Keep up the good work ... Listen to the vets they DO know what they are talking about and as you do what they advise you will see it unfold as they say it will.

MNG

edit for grammar >.<

That's quite a distance - how did that happen? Did you travel that far out for swinging weekends or what?

Thanks for that and I do hope as well that I can save my marriage as well