Dave, it is in her interests to keep you happy on her terms. You provide for her and help with childcare. Don't mistake appeasements for true recovery and repentance. She knows she was out of line and displaying IB by ignoring your calls/texts. So she's throwing you some crumbs today. Keep your head.

I would take the time to thank her for her baking today and tell her it made you more than ever desire a true marriage with her. I would write the following conditions down for her.

Set her down and explain to her that you want to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and that you won�t stay in a loveless marriage.

Tell her in order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take to keep you interested:

1. We must both end all contact with any OM or OW for life. Even accidental contact should be reported to each other.

2. no more nights apart or going out without each other - create a healthy, integrated lifestyle

3. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc. We must both answer calls and reply to texts to each other immediately.

4. no more opposite sex friendships

5. complete honesty about our affair<s> � passing a polygraph

6. Commit to the Marriage Builders program for recovery as outlined in the book Surviving an Affair.

7. Change our solo FB/twitter accounts to joint ones - present a united front to the world

8.Commit to 20 hours minimum time each week in each others company giving our undivided attention.

Tell her "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage." Whether our marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on our willingness and ability to make radical changes. Our lifestyles must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back.

Thes are EXTRAORDINARY precautions, designed to prevent another affair and help us BOTH feel safe. We must also meet each others emotional needs in a way that until now has failed to happen. Unless we make a 180 degree turn in our approach to what it means to be a husband and wife, our marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of our pre-affair marriage.

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She will say no. Just pat her on the head and say it is up to her.

Say that you intend to abide by these standards and that you hope she will join you at some point.

"I love you so much and hope our marriage is something you can commit to wholeheartedly"

Do i she the EP letter before she fully steps into the room or once in her own mind she has decided to step into the room but before she goes any further?



I definately arent mistaking appeasements for recovery as basically she has been doing NOTHING but the bare minimum and thigns that do not incoveniece her. So actually listening to what i say about the baking and now doing it is something she hasnt done recently at all even when i have asked in the past.

I am keeping my head and also i can see this is maybe a small thing for her to show after our councilling session she really is been honest to me, almost like this is an act of her putting a foot in the room to show me and whilst she might take it out again she wants to see how i react to her putting her foot in the room. This is a bit like her agreeing to spend time afetr our son goes to bed with me infrton of the tv every night rather than retreating to the SPARE room (i even got the counciller to agree to only ever call it the SPARE room). If these little act she makes and my reactions etc to them can make her feel SAFER to the point that she is prepared to step with both feet into the room then it has to be a good thing.

I will definately thank her for the baking once its done hadnt though about adding the bit that it made me more than ever desire a true marriage with her. Will have a thing on how best i should say that bit without it coming across as been pressure etc to her.

Exactly!

And don't worry about pressuring her. It is always possible to state our case fearlessly without pressurising others to agree. That's their call.

But you must appear very strong, with options and decisions and opinions of your own.

If you have no, or low, standards, she will live down to them. And think you worthy of very little effort.

Don't wait for her to get on board before telling her what the ship looks like.

Just set your conditions and give her time to decide to join in.

Indie thus sounds like something that I bring up in our next counvicilling session where we are negotiating. I know these are not negotiatsble items but if this is session where we are edging boundaries etc it seems like these EP are part of that as well as her saying things like back off with the txts etc and me asking for some time alone these EPs become part of it as well

Also should I mention ask her why since she had been on n off FB this morning she didn't reply to my message?

In your shoes I would say it is a condition, for you both to abide by. I would not ask 'why', you know why.

I'd consider asking Dr H for advice on his radio too. Your case is a little more unusual than the average Plan A case and I wonder if he would recommend a longer Plan A period than six months

Your WW spends a 1/2 hr whipping up a batch of cookies to placate you after banging her OM last night.

This affair ahs just gone underground enough that you can't detect what is going on.

You need to get smacked around with a bat to get motivated to find a stick to use on your WW.

OM is using his log on WW and WW is using her cookies on you to keep you in line.

Not sure where you got the why bit from in what I said, I was saying that if we are going to be both negotiating things that we both either do or don't what the other to do then the EP become the boundaries of that

I have thought about emailing the show but this is such a long complex story it would take ages to type/explain. I am sure I have read other threads and articles where planA can last longer than 6 months and I can do that and accept that. Where I think my situation unusual is that with time she starts to learn and realise to plan A me gradually moving to it becoming a 50:50 split. This is very much where the 5 languages book leads as well where when one of u speaks the right language it encourages to other to learn the right language and start speaking it.

Also to start the counciller is getting us to speak a common language to start to create the safe/secure feeling we both need to allow us to both relax and be able to show n accept our true feelings to each other. So the neutral language is that of "family" as that us a common bond between us. The strange thing us a read some time ago either on here or elsewhere that our son holds the key, he is our common bond and emotional link that can join us back together.

Sorry but your making an assumption here now and so far off the mark, OM and his BS are out of the country.

Please do not get obsessed with the A is continuing becuase it is NOT. There NC between OM and my wife and hasnt been for some time now. So nothing has gone underground, part of the purpose of plan A is to break up the A which has been done. Are you suggesting that even when this happens you dont believe it and still continue to carry on like it hasnt and at every possible juncture thing it is going on again. Using that logic and thinking would drive someone abosulty nuts and insance and would actually mean plan A becomes pointless as whever a WS said the A was over and all evidence confirmed this you still done believe them and contine like it hasnt. Sorry but cant agree with you on this.

So from what your saying the situation becomes this. H commits all sorts of LB not fufilling EN's etc, W has an A and gets EN's fufilled. Wife drops bombshell about D and the goes into plan A starting with exposure and breakup affair following by stopping LB's and fufilling EN's. The A is exposed and dies while H stops LB's and fuffils EN's to demonstrate what a wonderful person he and the marriage can be to encourage W to recover. W is now in a position of not having an A but also her EN's not fufilled as cant accept H's attempts due to mindset. So W is in a position of seeing that H is attempting to stop LB and fufill EN's but is unsure she can believe and trust his efforts due to previous failure and so stands at the door of recovery watching\understanding what H is doing while he encourages her to step into the room. NOW what your saying is at this point H turns round and hits W with 2x4 and says i dont believe A is over your lieing etc its gone underground blah blah blah, oh by the way i really wanna save our marriage honestly see how good it can be. RESULT = W turns round thinks yeah right D it is then, yoru havent changed i knew it, why shouldnt i go back, i might as well have another A or D you now. Sorry road but i cant and dont agree with this at all.

Right now my wife stands at the door of recovery, i have to plan A her into stepping into the room and wanting to go into a full recovery. There is no use in me assuming something which i know is false and using that. That will make her walk away from the room and slam the door shut. If the first step into the room is to sit beside me and our son and metaphorically sit on the sofa and talk and play that the first step we are in the room. Once there we move onto our son leaving the sofa and leaving me and her together to define the EP's and EN's of recovery

You said you were going to ask her why she did not respond to you. I said don't bother asking her why, you should already know why. Its more productive to tell her its unacceptable.

And EPs are NOT negotiable. If two years go by and EPs are not signed up to, Dr H would tell you to divorce because its IMPOSSIBLE to recover without them.



Dave, it doesn't matter that being vigilant would drive you nuts. It is imperative. The truth is you have no idea what she was doing last night and have no way of finding out. Unless her friends were watching her, which is not their responsibility.

As are carried on from other countries all the time. It is usually easier because the BSs lower their guard.

Plus there is more than one OM. And the potential for more. How do you know she didn't meet someone last night for heavens sake? Her boundaries are non existent.



There is no such thing as standing at the door of recovery. She intends nothing. But she will happily make you believe she does.




Do NOT extend past six months without professional MB advice. That is a very unusual move and needs a proper rationale and plan in order for it to work. She already thinks you're going to stick around forever with no effort on her part.

I think Dr H could guide you there. As for your situation I could sum it up in a three paragraph email. I can do if you need a summary.



That isn't MB carrot and stick Dave. This is pure speculation on your part and allowing her siLly moods to guide recovery.

The stick involves putting your cards on the table.

Stop walking on eggshells.

ok so i just say somethng like there was no reason you couldn thave rpelied ot the facebook message i sent you. It probably a little late now to say this but for futrue reference


I didnt think i say they ever were indie i know they are not and she may also have some EP's to add. I was just saying that these are used as the boundaries i.e. the fence around things that are negoetiated.

Theere is been vigilant which i am but there also has to be the point where you accept that the A is over, yes still keep checking and snooping etc but you cannot surely say that forever you dont accept this until some random point? Also there hasnt been more than one OM in the A its hard to explain and i dont want to drag up past things so please believe me on that.

There comes i point when i have to listen to her as well if things can progress, remember her mindset right now. She doesnt know whether she wants to save the M or D but has agreed to working on things and trying for a period of time. In order for that to happen first thought the counciller says we both have to feel safe and secure with each other and allow us to express feelings\emotions. Maybe a better anaolgy is saying this is creating an antiroom to the recovery room then that we can both exist in together, i am ready to walk through into the recovery room and by plan A showing her this at the same time she is undecied as to whether to walk into the recovery room or exit the antiroom via the frontdoor.

Ok fair point and i would be grateful if you could indie, other wise i would ramble on and on. Would you post it on here or can you email it to me etc?


This is what we are doing with the counciller its about creating a safe place for us both to go froward from, yes there is a little walking on eggsheels but thats only due to us not neogotiatiing everything as of yet so that then we both know whats right and wrong. I certainly agree that to go into recovery i will put the cards (EP's) on the table and then it is up to her to deicde.

The point where you accept the marriage as affair proofed - is when affair proof conditions are in place! Put there enthusiastically by both!

I know there isn't more than one OM from YOUR perspective, but your perspective is highly flawed.

The MB perspective identifies threats rather more scientifically. By letting multiple OM meet needs for her, there is more than one OM. Fact.

There was a point (you've posted this) when she began responding to the OM admiration and enjoying the swinging scene.

That's when multiple OM opened love banks within her. She knew who admired her and who did not.

Now, she is bound to have poor boundaries. She is bound to miss that feeling of being admired. All it would take is one clever, charming vulture to come across her online, or when she is out socially, to bypass her poor boundaries.

It could be someone from the past, with a preexisting love bank. Or it could be someone new, expressing admiration. She is addicted to that very thing!

While the M is unaffair proofed, and she's not committed, and no EPs are in place; it's a dangerous time for you.

She is not giving recovery a go. Or even considering it. Get that out of your head right now.

If she was, she'd agree to try some dates and would be happy to hear about EPs. She'd be happy you were more trustworthy.

I don't love or trust my husband. But if I wanted to try reconcilling, common sense would tell me I'd have to be an active participant.

There's nothing stopping her from giving it a full active go for six months and then reevaluating.

But waywards NEVER do this. They ALWAYS sit on the fence. They plan to coast like this forever. There's no room for common sense in the fog.

Ill happily draft you an email.

So there is NOTHING I can do then apart from plan a no matter what she says or does. If she doesn't want to try as far as MB goes its cause she is having an A there is no middle ground it's seems that MB either says you having an A if so you stop n work on M or if it stops but you don't recover you must be having an A.

One thing I don't seem to read is any threads where there never was an A and how MB can still apply.

Also I have sat in councilling session and listened to my wife she is scared n frightened , can't believe I can change in so many ways soon based of my past she won't work in a R until she stops feeling scared n frightened. So right now we have first get this stage achieved if to achieve that she is saying to back off or slow down on changes an fufulling her EN's then that's what has to be do e right now. I am sure that I have read in articles on here that everything hinges on having a safe secure place as a starting point. So to me it makes sense we/I have to go what is needed to achieve that

How do you get my email address to send it to me indie?

Ill post it here.

As for your wife being scared you haven't changed, that is a logical fear.

But how can it be logical for her to avoid a full on recovery or to snoop on you or to implement EPs? Those things would soothe her fears.

And I don't believe for one minute she is scared of flowers or dates. She just doesn't feel like it. She isn't committed. It is straight out of the wayward handbook to put as little effort in as possible. It is a mindset engendered by the swinging and the A. She either will or will not come out of it in the set timescales.



Not exactly. Plan A is to cure the wayward mindset. While the wayward mindset continues, there is likely to be either an ongoing A, the A suddenly resuming or a high chance of another A beginning.

Have you read SAA yet? The heavy conditions Dr H places upon Sue before she is allowed back home should clear up these qs for you.



Many of the same rules still apply. No OS friends, RH, a healthy integrated life.. Dr H says nights apart are the biggest invitation for As. Obviously EPs like NC don't apply.

In SAA one couple follow most of the rules except for OS friendships. They develop an EA but because he has no time away from his wife, and RH is in place, he confesses before it becomes a PA.

Jon and Sue have very separate lives and nights apart. Her EA develops without her having to tell a single lie as to her whereabouts. It quickly becomes a PA. Their marriage was never affair proofed.

Dr H says we would all have affairs in the right circumstances.

It is the job of all married people to eliminate those circumstances.

yes you a right and logical rational mind whoe know this, but right now si isnt logical and rationality she is led by negative emotions in order to drop her defences and start to see more logical and rational things have to go a little slower for her to start to accept the changes.

She isnt scared of the flowers she is scared\frightened of ME and all the change so fats and at once with her negative emotions in play it has created a fear in her mind and she is asking to slow things down a little so she can process and accept the changes and believe in them, this creating a safe n secure environment.


- I continue to plan A her and show her the good in me and our future marriage, but in a littel gentler way until she can process things.

i did try and order it on amazon as was last copy but then they email saying they are waiting for stock so its on order

to give you an idea of how her mind is working, in our councilling session the the other night she started relaying a set of events from a conversation one evening. At the end of relaying this the counciller asked me if it is what happened and i relayed them that my wife had got things in the wrong order etc. To this she then starts to talk over me etc and saying i am making it up etc etc. So i could start to feel an AO inside me, as a result i stood up and apologized but walked out of the room to take 5 and calm down. Whilst outside she the broke down in tears saying "look there he goes again etc i cant cope with that he hasnt changed etc etc" the counciller explained to her i hadnt had an AO i had reconized it and dealt with it by walking out from the situation and i had done exactly the right thing. It almost like my wifes mind is already expecting how i would react and then when i dont she misses that part and continues to process the thoughs in her head of how i WOULD have reacted.

Whilst i dont want to take this out of context i read the following snippet in the "Coping with Infidelity: Part 3
Restoring the Marital Relationship" article

"With personal safety as the condition for negotiation, and enthusiastic mutual agreement as the goal, a couple is ready to rebuild. But that environment of safety may take a while to create. It may be the very first skill that they will need to learn before they can negotiate satisfactory.

Getting beyond this first step -- setting a safe stage for negotiating -- may take some careful thought and planning, but one thing is for sure, negotiations that are not safe or pleasant will not give you a solution to your problem. "

Right now the only place of safety is with the conciller where negotiation can take place and we are both in mutual agreement with this goal. What the counciller is trying to get us to create is a place of safety when at home together so that we can negotiate as well.

Thats for negotiations. You don't negotiate EPs.

Dear Joyce and Dr Harley

I have been Plan Aing my wife after affairs on both sides.
I am 39 and wife is 35, we have been married for nearly 13 years and together 18 years, we have a 11 year old son whom we both cherish.

Around 3yrs ago I got caught having an affair. My wife fought for me and instead of recovering properly, I persuaded her to join the swinging scene during which we met one couple we spent a lot of time with. She began enjoying the attention from other men more over time. Ultimately she told me she wanted a separation and I found out she was having both an EA and PA with this man we spent so much time with.

I exposed the affair and my own affairs to everyone and have ensured NC for her and exclusivity on my part too. I am trying to offer her an MB marriage with EPs and transparency and I feel I am Plan Aing the best I can. She is not on board with recovery and sleeping in separate rooms, there is no physical contact\intimacy which I can live with given everything. Sometimes she gives me small signs of hope. She also says AOs in the past have led her to fear me. She also does not believe I can change.

My question is given my history how long should I Plan A? Will she need longer than six months to see real changes given my past?

I want to follow the most effective plan. Some recovery conditions are in place such as NC, but I haven't asked her to spend all her nights with me and she sometimes goes out with friends and stays over. How far should I push recovery conditions right now?

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Not exactly three pars but I think it'll do.

While you still haven't read SAA, I'd recommend you listen to the radio every day. Its the quickest way to learn the concepts.

Yes i know you dont negotiate EP's i am referring to more this is what is happening at present with the counsiller in order for us to be able to negotiate things to recover, the EP's are negotiable items. Once this step has been created then the EP's are presents as a condition of moving onto negoiations

thanks for the email indie