((((Annointed))))

Ship is not sure the marriage can work and things are not going so great right now. We have both been extremely caring this past week, though.

I don't like feeling insecure in our marriage. It really does hurt a lot to hear your spouse say it may be over. As empathetic as I can be, I completely missed the mark on caring for Ship each and every time I brought up separation. I thought I was being honest and thoughtful by letting him know how I was feeling. I ripped up the foundation of security between us.

Anyone know if there are still MB weekends? I can't find current info on it.

There are no actual weekends away to start the course, Anointed. There is, instead, the online course. If you sign up for this you will be assigned a coach to take you through the weekly lessons and you will be able to contact Dr Harley online when you need to.

Would you care to share any suggestions that Dr H has made to you with us?

Why? Is there some reason he cannot follow Dr. Harley's advice?

There have only been a couple of email exchanges between Ship and Dr. H. My own mother is now in town, and our schedules are very busy.

The only thing we've discussed so far are what we can eliminate in life to focus on UA.

Dr H has basically encouraged Ship to listen to me when I complain about feeling uncared for. And to do the things that make me feel care.

I have emailed Dr H this morning for the first time, and he is telling me the ball is in Ship's court.

Anointed, this is just not true. It may not be pleasant for Ship to hear you be honest about your feelings, but there is no way to adjust to each other in marriage without complete honesty. You have not been receiving the care you need, and it's important to bring that up.

In marriage when one partner is able to provide the care the other needs, but is not willing to do it, a separation is a very normal and rational response. Living in a marriage without care can be emotionally and physically devastating, especially for a woman.

You have shown your care for Ship by expressing a willingness to meet his emotional needs and a willingness to learn how to avoid love busters. The problem so far is that he has not been willing to do that. If you are both willing to do that, then we and Dr. Harley and the courses and whatever else is necessary can be used to teach you how to do that, and your marriage can certainly recover.

Nobody likes to hear a complaint, but you can't have a good marriage without learning to accept each other's honesty. You need Ship to act on your complaints and improve the care he is providing for you. If he does not do that, then there is no foundation of security for your marriage, and the reason for the lack of security is not because you complained, but because he wasn't providing care.

I hope Ship is reading along and is willing to learn to accept your emotional honesty and act on your complaints. If he wants his emotional needs met, he is going to have to fix what is lacking, rather than blaming you for complaining that it is lacking.

When a bank sends you an overdraft statement for $50, you deposit $51 to fix it. (Hopefully more.) You don't blame the bank for taking away your security with the overdraft statement. Receiving the statement certainly isn't pleasant, but it's necessary if you want to fix what's wrong.

I guess Ship would have to answer that one.

The despair may be a mixture of a low LB$ balance and a feeling that he has failed the marriage despite his "best efforts."



So, what can you do? Tell him that the point you have reached is by no means "the end of the marriage." Both of you need to know this is the beginning of a new marriage. And not just a better marriage, but a great marriage. Welcome to rock bottom, the only way to go from here is up.

I guess I mean that I should not have discussed separation...I should have just left. Isn't that right?

We are both very aggrivated. Ship feels he is trying very hard (and he really has been quite caring and patient this week) just to remain the "bad guy" on this forum and to Dr H.

He has agreed to an out of town training when I'm about 35-36 weeks pregnant but it was only after we POJA'ed it. He feels it is very important to get this training so he has a better chance of finding a job...our finances are another glaring issue in our marriage. He is trying to balance everything and do what is right is still being called out for being "uncaring"

I can't travel, and I was worried I might go into labor while he was gone (I have never delivered before 40 wks, however). He asked what if we watch how the pregnancy is progressing, and if we feel like there is a chance I could deliver that he would opt out of the trip. I agreed.

Dr H felt it was unwise to travel at this time and showed lack of care.

Ship did not like this because he was very careful to speak with me and come to an understanding before agreeing to it.

He feels that no matter what he does, he can't win. And since he thinks I rank Dr. H's advice right up there under Jesus he is not happy at all.

This made me cry. Thanks.

Simply don't discuss it again.


The thing Ship needs to understand is that there really is an end in sight. Your complaints aren't limitless, and when he makes some substantial progress showing some care, it really will make a difference.


It is possible for both husband and wife to agree to things that are just inherently a bad idea. I mean, if you both enthusiastically agreed to jump off a bridge, that would not make it a good idea for your marriage!

The example Dr. Harley frequently gives is pornography. In most marriages, the wife is not enthusiastic about pornography, and so according to the POJA, it should not be used. But even in marriages where both husband and wife are enthusiastic about it, Dr. Harley says it is still a bad idea. He has rules for these situations; his rule for that situation is the "policy of sexual exclusivity." You don't see that one mentioned often because you rarely have a situation where both spouses are enthusiastic about violating that rule, so the POJA usually covers it.

Another example is the Policy of Undivided Attention. According to this rule, a marriage needs 15 hours of intimate emotional needs met per week in order to survive. But suppose husband and wife agree they are enthusiastic about getting only 10 hours per week. What will happen if they do this? They will begin to lose their love for each other, and their marriage will be endangered. So even though they were both enthusiastic, it's still a bad idea, according to Dr. Harley.

Prisca and I came up with our own example of this the other night, talking (hypothetically) about moving in with her parents. I suspect Dr. Harley would say living with one's in-laws is nearly always a bad idea, even when husband and wife are both enthusiastic, and even when the in-laws are as nice as mine are.


Did you hear the radio show with Zhamila's husband a couple months back? When something somebody wants falls through, and it turns out the other spouse is not enthusiastic, it's important to start negotiating an alternative. Ship needs to realize that this is not the only economic opportunity he will have, and working together the two of you can find an option that you are both enthusiastic about. There were some great practical suggestions in that show about negotiation.

Anointed, your story is so hard for me to read in that it reminds me *so* much of my own. When I brought my complaints to my then-H earlier in the marriage, he was able to hear them and make the changes our family needed. But at the end there, he was unwilling, and responded with empty divorce threats. cwmi's H did the same thing. Thankfully her H did realize what he had to do and made the needed changes.

That "Bad guy" stuff is nothing but a DJ, a distraction, a smokescreen, and an illusion. My then-H used to use words like that too because it made him feel "right" and therefore entitled to continue to go forward without making the changes our family needed. He didn't let go of that "being right" thing until just recently, when he found being "right" wasn't worth it. As the saying goes, "Do you want to be right or do you want to be married?" Someone being right and the other wrong, or good guy/bad guy is a DJ used by Renters to believe it's their "turn" to get what they want at the others' expense. You'll know he's made the shift to being a Buyer, marriage material, if and when he stops talking like that, and instead is working with you to do the things that are special and meaningful to both of you.

I will keep your family in prayer, Anointed, and I'm rooting for you. I'm sorry to say, but if things don't change fast, this won't be the bottom yet. I think for me the bottom came later. The day my refinance went through was bad, taking the final steps toward divorce. The day of the divorce. Well after the divorce, celebrating holidays with my kids without their Dad, because he was celebrating with a girlfriend in another state. But better days are ahead, too, for you and your family, no matter what happens. (((hugs)))

(((((((((((((Anointed))))))))))))))

I'm sorry this is so difficult. I'm glad Dr. Harley is personally involved.

Hugs.

Thank you, markos. You are very encouraging to me.

I haven't heard the show featuring Zhamila's husband. Not sure how I'd go about finding it. We definitely could use help in the POJA dept.

Thanks HHH.

I don't like that Ship has felt like a failure. I've almost avoided the forum completely as of late because he truly does not feel validated by the forum.

He feels that his needs are just as important as mine (true). While I am receiving pats on the head and encouragement, he feels he is receiving 2X4's.

Admiration is a top need for both of us, and I think ANY form of criticism has brought him very low emotionally. It doesn't appear to encourage him in any way to come to these boards. He wants to be understood and cared for, and he is also willing to learn at the same time.

Not sure I should have posted any of that. Just wanted you all to know how much of an impact this board seems to have on him... he got very low after his last interactions here and with Dr. H.

Thanks NED. I appreciate your words.

Not sure how much of your situation applies to mine. We are still working through some things and getting very honest.

I think Ship truly feels invalidated. I'm working to understand his feelings and I believe he is doing the same.

Thanks Zhamila.

I'm very grateful for Dr H stepping in.

How are we doing?

Well, I'm not quite sure. We seem to be headed in a positive direction.

Ship has shared with me how much hurt he has endured in our marriage, some has been his own doing by past failures. I don't know if he ever regained his confidence after his affairs. I have not been good at lifting him up and there is no telling how long I have been in withdrawal from him and he, me.

We each have not been safe for the other. I know I have dismissed his feelings many, many times. I'm so glad that I've learned about LBs. I'm so glad I am learning how to truly show care to Ship again.

It seems he is learning also.

LBs are very few. We are trying to take each others' word for it on how we are feeling. Ship has not dismissed my feelings.

I did tell him I was still not feeling good about him traveling next month, and we have been discussing me going along. We don't have the money for it. We are working on it to see if it is feasible. He said he doesn't mind that I go which really makes me happy. $$ may keep it from happening, however.

I have POJAed with Ship on as much as I can...even where to hang pictures and how to design decor. I have told him repeatedly that I am not interested in doing ANYTHING he is not enthusiastic about. I've asked to revisit subjects when it wasn't a good time for him to discuss them.

I have asked how he feels we are doing, and he said he feels like we are doing ok. I've asked if we are friends, and he said he hopes we are more than that.

I have noticed that just in making an effort to meet the 15 hr UA time I feel more sexual towards Ship. He touches my face, he says sweet things, he asks if I'm ok when I grimmace with pregnancy pains, he asks how I feel about doing this or that...

He is showing care, and it is doing a tremendous amount of healing in my own heart.

I don't know just what is going on exactly in his, but I keep asking him to be completely honest. I believe he is.

At the moment, we are in desperate need of a new job for Ship. We have pretty much burned through our savings now. We are praying hard, and I'm asking God to give us faith to press through as I know doors WILL open.

The house feels like it is at a calm at the moment...both of us kindof tiptoeing through this and taking our marriage very seriously.

Annointed, he has recieved criticism for his thoughtless behavior. That IS supportive. If he doesn''t know what he did wrong, he can't very well make changes.

I hope he does become willing to learn. I have not seen any sign of that yet, and his unwillingness to come to the forum is a demonstration of that fact.