Married 13 yrs
Me:32
FWH:33
12yr old, 10yr old, and 2yr old
FWH had a few affairs in 2001-2002
Fully recovered

I've been going through an angry stage since May 2011, and I thought we would separate in July 2011. I've been angry about the lack of boundaries in my marriage and the hurtful words my husband has said. My friends and family have obviously encouraged me to stay and work things out, but I'm not sure things will ever change regarding the DJs and unsolicited advice-->I read the unsolicited advice thread yesterday, and it hit the nail on the head for us!

I hate the words "you should have!" They are so unproductive for me and feel like a slap in the face.

I have sent some links trying to explain DJ's to my hubby, but I don't know if it is truly sinking in. I feel so hopeless and just plain worn out.

Last night's example:

I've been working on decorating my daughter's bathroom, and I finally got everything painted and all the decor set out to hang on the walls. I have had a very busy schedule since last week and haven't had time to focus on it.

My husband came into the office while I was working and asked "Will you be finishing the bathroom tonight?" I already knew where it would go when I said "no." I told him I wouldn't have time, and he told me that my "procrastination has caught up with me" because one of the pictures (that I based the whole design of the bathroom) has been ruined.

We had a service man in that bathroom, and he placed all the wet shampoo bottles on top of my painting! I was so upset! It takes so much courage for me to even try to be creative and artistic, and I felt like that room was coming together beautifully.

I was literally reading the unwanted advice thread when he walked in, and I had an AO. Ugh. I told him I hate talking to him because of this. I was so discouraged! Why isn't he a friend to me??? Why couldn't he have said, "Honey, I'm so sorry but one of your paintings has been ruined. Can I help you pick up the things off of the cabinet so nothing else gets ruined?"

He told me that since he has to say things a certain way I am not "letting him have an opinion." I've never said he couldn't have an opinion. I've always just asked that he be careful HOW he says it.

I'm so discouraged and hurt. I'm beside myself that this will never change. Our first fight was on this very topic 14 years ago.

I'm so tired.

Have you considered using the Marriage Builders program?

I would start with this article right here: How to Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts and Restore Love to Your Marriage



If you have problems motivating your husband to go through the program, you might try phone counseling with the Harleys. But the solution to your problems is to learn the skills to resolve these problems.

Yes, I have. I have lurked on the Infidelity page and Recovery trying to overcome what we have been through, and I have just been learning about DJ's and AO's which are our primary issues. All these years I have definitely been guilty of AO's in response to his hurtful comments. I bought HNHN, and I have read a few chapters. I need to finish.

That is great! I would also recommend jumping to Lovebusters sooner rather than later. That was a real eye opener for both my H and I. We did 1 or 2 chapters a week and then discussed the chapter afterwards. You might want to focus on lovebusters FIRST so the work you do on meeting needs is not wasted.

Thank you, Melody. I respect your opinion a lot, and I'm thankful for your attention to my thread. I'll check it out after work.

I was terrified you'd tell me there was no hope. Thank you.

you are very welcome, dear! {{{{{{{{{anointed}}}}}}}}}}}}

This made me LOL remembering the day ML told me that my (now X) husband was a sociopath and I should divorce him. It was the most validating thing I had ever had said to me.

She does have an uncanny eye for situations presented. I read and learn so much from her.

Is your DH on board with the program? On board with going through the Lovebuster book or questionaire?

You know, I'm not sure how on board he is with the program. He has read part of some threads I've sent him, but I really just don't know. He says his heart towards me is different than what I assume about him. I told him that he is responsible for what he presents to me...I cannot just assume he means to be kind when he is being unkind.

'

Anointed, here is how I sold my H on this program. I identified something about the program that he would really view as a benefit and sold him that way. For example, I was the Queen of Independent Behavior. It drove him CRAZY. So, I sold him on the program by describing the policy of joint agreement.

What is it about you that bugs your husband? What would be his benefit from using this program?

And again, if he won't get on board, you might want to consider using one of the Marriage Builders coaches. It might just take a couple of sessions to motivate him and once you do that, we can guide you through the program.

Thank you, SW! I just wanted to add that what you told us was so shocking that it seemed very apparent he had some serious problems. That is why I asked you if anyone had ever said he was a sociopath. So glad you got out of there!

In other words, people buy things when they see a perceived BENEFIT. Sell him on benefits and features.

Would your H be willing to read or learn about these concepts also? It's great that you're learning about them, but if both of you are on board with the concepts it's much easier to implement them.

Sometimes my H learns or understands better when he can read it and absorb it himself, or when I read it to him and we discuss it. (As opposed to my just telling him about it.)

Thank you so much for the input MelodyLane and maritalbliss! One thing he pointed out to me yesterday I'd that I have AO when he has DJ. I'm sure he'd prefer that not happen anymore. He also said that I have NEVER fulfilled him sexually, and this has been a painful topic since the beginning. I've had medical issues that cause me to have a period that last sometimes over half the month! I would like a hysterectomy, but he'd like another child. I'm so tired of being aggravated and in pain.

He says I can please him in other ways, but I truly don't like his favorite way. We have not been able to POJA that.

His major issues with me: AO and SF

And maritalbliss he does do better if I read it to him. Our schedule is that we'd have to do it before bed, and he usually falls asleep on me. I bought the kindle version of Lovebusters, so we can try again.

I just finished this article, and I think the concepts are slowly sinking in for me. It seems so strande that I've been lurking for so long and didn't soak in this stuff properly. I guess now is just the right time.

And I haven't ignored your suggestions to do counseling with the Harveys. We are trying to get me to be a stay at home mom (another issue that has not been POJAed well) and money is very tight. I'm willing to do it, though.

Update: My husband said he was willing to read Lovebusters with me but has not initiated. Everytime I bring it up, I can tell he is not enthusiastic, so I don't push. I'll admit that last night I did say that "we've been talking about this for 3 days. I'd really like to read tonight." He said, "I guess I don't have a choice." I said, "yes you do. If you'd rather watch the football game then I'll go read something else." He watched the game. I'll admit my tone wasn't the nicest.

I guess I'll have to start reading it by myself. I know I'm the worst about AO. Even though I haven't read the book about lovebusters I've come to realize that an AO doesn't have to be yelling...If my tone is sarcastic, frustrated, etc or if I behave like I'm put out...it's the same thing. I've been acting like I'm a victim and have no control over my life.

I've been acting like my reactions are understandable due to their (my kids and husband) hurtful actions. I'm too sensitive, and it's time to get some thicker skin and know that no one can make me do anything. I can decide how I respond.

I cried so much last night realizing how much I'm going to have to die to myself to respond properly in the face of pain.

Anointed, did you, by any chance, present the reading idea to him, knowing that he was interested in watching the game?

If so, I can see where your H would feel that you were putting him in the position of giving up an activity that he enjoys (watching the game) in order to do something you wanted to do instead.

Did you consider asking him what time would be a good time to read together? This is a good exercise in POJA.

Also my husband and I were on good terms for a whole 2 days before something else reared it's ugly head. Can I please get your input?

My MIL and my husband's family are notorious for being late and inconsiderate of other's schedules. I have felt for a while now that when I say something, they do not hear me. My husband and I have asked that when they make plans to bring the entire family over to our house to cook out to please ask us first out of courtesy. They do not. I tell my husband how much this bothers me, and he just tells me that I know this is how they are, so am I just going to love them anyway? "One day we'll have plans and they won't be able to come over like they had planned. That will teach them." Well, I'd like to teach them before then. That's a little background.

Yesterday we all (MIL and extended family) went to a showing of million dollar homes just for fun. The plan was to go to the early service at church, eat brunch, and head straight over so we could leave when it was time for my 2 year old to take a nap. We went to early church, but no one else did. We tried to go to brunch, but they weren't hungry since they all stayed home and had a big breakfast. We went home and changed clothes, passed some time, and then went to lunch on our own. They did show up to lunch when we were about finished, so we waited for everyone to finish. The whole time my husband was agrivated by the lack of consideration, and I kept saying, "let's just keep our schedule and they can meet up with us." We ended up waiting on them because my husband was "trying to be flexible."

We looked at the houses, and we all seemed to have a pretty good time. (This was a group of about 12 people, so it took some time) When we finished it was 3:30 and way past my toddler's naptime. I kept saying it was time to go. My MIL said that there was one more open house down the street. I said that it would take 40 minutes to get home, and we need to go. My husband said that we'd drive by the open house, and if he wanted to stop he would. Well, of course he wanted to stop. I kept telling him that I felt it was important to go home.

I went in with him to the open house since I didn't want to wait in the car with a toddler. It was really beautiful ($2 million home), but I felt ignored. It took 45 min to get back to the car, and then we drove home. I told him I didn't feel like he protected my wishes. He said that a real man shouldn't have to ask permission from his wife about every little thing. He said that is why men today don't have .....um...*alls. I asked him if he really thought being a man was threatened by making sure I was ok with the situation?

He ended up cursing at me (even though that hurts me terribly), and I just couldn't believe it. I'm pretty much ignored when his family is around, and I told him that I may not want to go on vacation with them or go to family events if this is the way it's going to be. That's when he started cursing and saying that if I want to "be that way" there are consequences...blah blah blah.

Am I crazy? We haven't spoken much since yesterday afternoon, and I'm discouraged.

You know, Anointed, it sounds like you're going to see incredible growth in yourself through this. I've found that MB not only promotes marital growth but major personal growth too. I've changed drastically, though there's always room to mature more. I'll be praying that your efforts produce a harvest with your husband--that's he'll be eager to start working on the details step by step.

I also struggle with motivating my husband, but perhaps you could work reading time in around things that he enjoys (like football) so that it's not sacrificing too much. If there's a couple days a week that are less busy (and not football game days), turn off the TV early and usher him into the bedroom for some quality time (maybe sex will entice him!) and then read together. If you're working on meeting his physical needs, he may be more excited about the whole reading part.

Just an idea...

Thanks maritalbliss.

Yes he was watching a football game when I asked, but it was the 2nd one of the day. He usually only watches his favorite team and rarely watches other games. The 2 games he watched were of other teams, and I felt like he was trying to avoid me. He did allow me to read to him some earlier in the afternoon, but the kids were so loud it was impossible for me to concentrate so I wanted to wait til later.

Thanks wanthealing. I've been so discouraged because I know there are things my husband is doing that hurt me. But I have no control over that. I'm extremely sensitive anyway, so the pain of things can be very overwhelming. I've gotten angry with the idea that I have to fix myself when it seems like my husband doesn't have to do anything. It's a selfish thing and normal I know.

He has caused some deep, deep wounding in me, and it would be so nice if he'd take initiative to learn about true intimacy. He asked me the other day to please "let him in." It's just not safe.

I know I haven't been safe either.

Oh, and thanks for the enticing idea. I'm pretty sure SF is a good motivator!

Okay, so it sounds like Sundays aren't the best days for reading during the football season. I totally understand.

I want to point something out to you, just for you to consider: He was watching other games, which is not atypical of football fans who have a favorite team. My H will watch other games to see who wins, so he'll know the league standings, which affects his team's standings. He also likes to talk football with his buddies, and it helps to know the strengths and weaknesses of ALL the players. It was, if I may, a little presumptuous of you to decide that he was avoiding you.

I'm not saying he wasn't, don't get me wrong. I can't read his mind - I'm just pointing out another possibility for you to consider.

And don't forget what I mentioned before: a lot of guys don't like to read and consider it a chore. He's not going to be enthusiastic if he's one of those guys. Is there another way the two of you can discuss the materials?

Hi maritalbliss!

Yes, I do realize that sometimes this is the case, but my husband rarely watches other games. He may watch for a minute or two, but not the whole game. He may have been doing that again last night. I wasn't in the room with him the whole time. He even has pointed out to me that I should be glad he is not like other husbands who become unavailable during football season. I am not a football widow, and I am grateful for that.

He did come home from lunch today and say that his favorite team IS playing tonight, so he'd like to read during lunch. I told him that it's hard to concentrate when the two year old is awake (she's VERY loud!) Later on I did thank him for trying to make time for it.

*sigh*

Jump on this opening, Anointed - instead of just thanking him, get out the calendar and see where you've got time. Schedule the time just like you would a doctor's appointment to get going on this.

I'll be watching the same game...this might not work for everyone, but here's what I do: set the game to record on DVR, wait an hour or so and then start watching it. I can fast forward over all the commentary, time outs, halftime, and video reviews. I can usually watch a ballgame in an hour or so.

Really good idea Bitbucket! We used to do that when we had a DVR, but now we only have regular TV. Husband hates it when games are on since he HAS to be home or he misses it. Thanks though!

I agree, maritalbliss. I am the usual initiator on things and this is what I would normally do. I'll see what we can work out.

One thing I've noticed about myself, Anointed, that someone on this forum pointed out to me that may be the same with you: I put too much energy into worrying about the problem that I overlook the solution. It sounds like you are very open to solutions, which is great, but make sure the ultimate goal is always in mind: building love. While reading the book is important, it's supposed to be a step toward building love, so if it's becoming a distractor from that, maybe don't make it so urgent.

For example, during the game, instead of being bummed that he didn't want to read the book, cuddle with him and turn it into a love moment. These are things I have started doing more of, and while sometimes I feel like I'm the only one changing and the only one working on our M, I'm doing it because I want to build love, so I have to keep love in mind amid all of this.

As for your husband's disrespect when you wanted to get your child to bed during your family outing, that's a big lovebuster and he needs to work on changing that. I am in the same boat as you with regards to how to motivate change in your spouse, but I hope that making baby steps will eventually change that altogether. Remember--it's a change that takes place gradually, so I suggest forgiving him for his rudeness to you and talking through how you both feel your family dynamic should be and coming to some joint agreement for future situations.

Keep faith that things will continue to get better, Anointed. Don't give up!

Wow, what a horrible afternoon you described. How awful for your kids, too. It makes me really sad to remember my kids telling me about how awful they felt when their Dad and I had loud, angry, disrespectful arguments. And then to think back to some of those arguments, remember the kids even crying. It sounds like you two are really really deep in State of Conflict, too.

How can you work on your marriage so that it's not at your kids' expense? Are you willing to decide today that those days are totally over? It takes two to simmer kids in that. It's just not right. I was here for a few years before I was willing to do whatever it took to protect my kids from the hostility. I wish I had realized up front that it's no way to raise kids.

It does not hurt you to be respectful. It does not hurt you to avoid an AO, or to make requests instead of demands. You are not going to have to die in order to avoid handing out abuse.

"Pain" is not a free-for-all ticket giving you permission to lash out at those standing nearby. "Pain" is not permission to inflict pain.

Stop giving yourself permission to mourn the loss of your self-given "right" to abuse. I think things will get easier for you when you see your AOs for what they are -- "ugly, self-serving abuse" rather than simply an "improper response to pain."

I totally agree with you NewEveryDay. It is something I hate, and I'm going to work on myself. If there is anything I'm learning during this time, it's that I need to focus on my own "stuff". Thanks for your post.

This is something I need to think on Prisca. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I need to respond with grace even when the pain is unbearable. This is not something I've been good at, and it doesn't matter if anyone else in the house is good at it either. I'm responsible for me. Not being a victim takes heart and a backbone.

I'll need to stew on your words for a bit. Thanks for your input. I need all the help I can get!

Annointed, I'm so encouraged to hear that. It may get temporarily worse before it gets better, it got way worse in my house before it got better. So I had a plan, what would I do if I was met with a Selfish Demand, Disrepsectful Judgment, and Angry Outburst. I eventually found lots of ways to prevent and de-escalate situations. For us playing soccer out back was great, it's hard to continue a fight while chasing a ball with the kids. Same with going for a walk and going for coffee. It helped me to remember I only had to juggle this for a season, while I got my ducks in a row. Then my life, my kids lives, would be peaceful, hopefully with their Dad, but if not then so be it.

OK, so be proactive and when presented with a situation where you suspect he'll say that, say it first. "I know I should have...., but I didn't and now I'm paying the price."

You know, when presented with someone who brings a lot of what appears to be preventable issues, it's sometimes a real drag to have to watch them do the same things over again, and then come complain about what happened.

So while you may want him to stop saying, "You should have..." he just might like to see you start doing some of those things so you don't bring all this drama into your lives. So consider his view of such situations, not just yours. After all, there are two in the marriage, not just you and your feelings.
OK, you say you knew his answer, so what could you have proactively said to avoid this? Could you have made a pledge to complete the project and then stick to it, no excuses? Could you validate that you know the current state of things bothers him?

You are here complaining about his DJ's, but what are you going to do about what may appear to him to be an Annoying Habit?

If this is a recurrent theme, what are you doing to address your steps in this dance? Remember DJ's are often a RESPONSE to something that bothers the spouse. You can't just stop the DJ's, you also have to work on your side of the street and start addressing the things that are annoying him.
I guess I have to ask why you can't see how he IS BEING A FRIEND by suggesting ways to avoid this in the future? He sees this bothers you. He doesn't want you to be bothered by this in the future, so he suggests a way to avoid it. In his own way, he is being a very GOOD FRIEND. You simply choose not to see it that way.

Your choice.
OK, so are you going to keep dismissing him, or will you respond with, "I understand how you may feel that way."

So you are telling him "He should be careful..."

You are sending a mixed message. He cannot say you should put the painting in a safe place, but it's OK for you to say he should be careful.

Do you see how you contradict yourself?

OK, so don't fight. Find the good in what he says, and stop doing the things to him you say bother you when he does them. It will only confuse the issue.

Guys are about action, generally speaking. So your ACTIONS will tell him what is acceptable. If you are using attitudes like he should... then guess what? He will act in a similar fashion.

Since you say he should be careful, you give him license to say you should be careful with the painting, or whatever advice he has to offer.

You always have a choice on how you respond to what he says and does. So will you choose to act in a fashion that builds your marriage, or in a fashion where you simply continue your LB behaviors and mixed messages?

Thanks for your post Enlightened_Ex. You have stated many of the things my husband says, and I still just dont understand that point of view.

When he says "you should have" I don't always agree that I "should" have been doing what he says. I or it may be that I've done what I feel is the best I can given my schedule, and his "should haves" disregard my efforts.

I am the type of person who finishes what I set my mind to. I've had a disconnect when it comes to organizing and decorating in a certain part of my home due to time, money, and honestly my husbands negative feedback to my attempts at decor. I think I'm very good at it and so do many others. In fact, I finished the bathroom last week, and my husband thought I'd done a great job (even though just a couple of weeks prior he had said that the paintings I'd picked weren't exactly "bathroom" type pictures.). I'm not sure what behaviors he thinks I can prevent since I'm a well accomplished person who does as much as reasonably possible while working from home and handling 3 busy kids. I don't feel he is understanding and reasonable in this area.

The state of a couple of rooms upstairs bothers us BOTH but he knows I have to do things slowly. He admitted later that he was just upset that the picture had been damaged, and he said he came about sharing his feelings with me in the wrong way.

I'm sorry but I don't WANT my husband suggesting to me how to avoid things in the future...at least not in a parent type role towards me. Many times I'm well aware of the problem, and I'm doing my very best to deal with it. Letting me know how to prevent things in the future says to me that he does not believe I am capable. When he comes at me from that point of view, I am not interested in his unwanted advice. If he came at me with, "honey, how would you feel if we started doing ..." or "I see you couldn't get to such and such today...is there some way I can help?". Those types of statements make me feel like we are a team and that he is a FRIEND to me. If you notice in my post, he didn't offer suggestions to help. He just informed me that procrastination had caught up with me ( we are talking a couple of weeks of painting, etc....not months) Teaching me because he feels I'm incapable is not acceptable to me.

If you notice my wording I did not say that he SHOULD be careful how he says things. I am ASKING him to be careful. To me, those are light worlds apart. I don't see how that contradicts what I'm asking him to do.

Thanks for your insight. I will think longer on your post since you seem to really understand how my hubby feels. He says I contradict myself by doing the things I ask him not to do. I have always asked alllllll these years to please be careful how he words things. This is not enough direction, I see, and we are planning to focus on reading Lovebusters this week. (we have been overwhelmed with a family wedding)

Thanks Enlightened_Ex.

I did also want to point out, not that it makes things any better, that we only had our two year old in the car with us during the angry discussion and she was actually sleeping! Ther have been many times that the older kids have witnessed stuff like this though.

If your goal is understanding, then the DJ's from you will continue. After all, I suspect he doesn't understand your point of view either. I think that contributes to the DJ's.

So instead of trying to understand his point of view, why not offer him the same thing you want, ACCEPT that he has a point of view as well.

Just as your efforts and point of view are valuable, his are too. If your goal is understanding, then I don't think you'll get very far. If your goal is to build romantic love, then it's more about how you act. I don't think you fell in love because you understood his point of view. You fell in love because you did things that built romantic love.

I'd focus more on accepting things, rather than understanding.

A concrete example, I don't need to understand why my wife turns the thermostat up to 85 when she's cold. She does it. I "know" it won't make the house warmer, and pretty soon she'll complain that it's too hot. But I accept that that is how her mind works. Perhaps she thinks it's like a throttle. But then that begs the question why she doesn't operate the oven that way.

The point is, I don't have to understand that contradiction to love her.
Practice the following phrase, "You may be right."

It's always true. It's not saying he is right, it's not saying he's not. Trying to determine "who is right" will not lead to romantic love.
My short answer is, So?

If your approach annoys him, it is an annoying habit, no matter how creative or talented you or your friends might find it. He is the one married to you and he has to live in the home as well. If your creative process destroys romantic love, then is that good for your marriage?

I'm not saying change the process, I'm suggesting that you stop justifying your process and consider the impact is has on your husband.

Just as you want him to stop saying, "You should have...." if the process annoys him, then knock it off. It doesn't matter the outcome. If you are destroying romantic love in the process is the price too high for the outcome?

Let's turn the tables. What if when your husband says, "You should have..." it was the "right" answer. But you are hurt and do not feel loved and cherished when he says that. Should he continue to say that because in the end, he was right, his way was better?

Of course not. So the same is true with your process you justify here. It doesn't matter how great you and your friends say it is if it's a LB from your husband's perspective.
So are you suggesting that knowing is the solution. OK, I'll ask you to apply your standard. You know your husband says, "You should..." therefore, since you know that's his process, you should just accept it. Yes, I sad you should.


I believe he's taking it that way. If he's saying he cannot express himself, then I think he's saying you are telling him how to speak.

But I'll play along. I didn't say you should just accept that he says, "you should" what I said was, "Things would turn out much better if you can find a way to accept that he is just he way he is."

Sure, I can rephrase the "you should" in a flowery way so it doesn't appear to be "you should." But if the underlying message is you don't think your husband is communicating with you in the right way, the conclusion he will draw is the same one I came to. You are saying he should change his approach.

So what you are saying is that if you ask long enough, a "you should" becomes acceptable. So all he has to do when you do something he finds annoying is to keep asking you to change your approach and that will make his "you should's" OK.

I'll leave you with one final insight.

I see you justifying your actions, but you are critical of his. Even saying you don't understand could be interpreted as something of a criticism. It comes across as if he's (or I) am so different that it's difficult or perhaps even unrealistic to understand what either of us are saying.

Since he's not here to either defend himself or change his behavior, it's really of little value to focus on what you perceive to be his faults.

What are you going to do?

If your response is more justification, then I will simply bow out of the conversation and let you continue down your path.

I have an idea, how about you read your post to me and highlight your DJ's. I'll give you a hint, using the words "I feel" don't change a DJ into a feeling statement. One cannot say, "I feel you don't love me" and expect that to be treated as a feeling statement. It's not, it's a DJ. It's suggesting you know more about how he loves or doesn't love than he does.

So find your own DJs. After all, if you want him to stop, you can't be flinging DJs or any other love busters at him.

You may find it more productive to entice your husband on board by demonstrating the program. What you write comes across as, "I hope Marriage Builders will fix my husband."

Instead of trying to get him to read it and buy in, which doesn't seem very fruitful so far, why not use it to address your own behaviors.

What are your love busters? What things do you do that make withdrawals from the love bank? DJs, annoying habits, what are your marital sins? What emotional needs are you not meeting for him? Have you dropped independent behavior and use the POJA to resolve issues?

If the upstairs bothers both of you, then why not use the POJA to negotiate the standard and how you will tackle the issue. I wouldn't let him in on the fact you are using a program. Just sell it as what it is, a win-win solution. It bothers you both and you believe that it's in both your best interests if you pick a solution, a means and a deadline you both enthusiastically embrace.

Instead of doing it yourself and resenting he doesn't help and instead of him resenting that it's still not done why not find a way that you both can embrace. Take what you know about him to highlight aspects that will appeal to him.

It's not about which way is better, your way or his way, it's about finding ways that engage you both and leave you both more than satisfied not only with the outcome, but with the entire process.

Sometimes you simply have to make "painting the fence" seem like the best job in the world. Sometimes you simply have to make it the best job in the world, not because it is, but because you are a great partner.

You may have to be that great partner to get him on board. I reserve the right to be wrong. However it's my belief that going first and being that great partner will be far more effective than getting him to read and get on-board.

The first method demonstrates your love for him. The second says you need to be fixed and here is what is wrong with you.

Sounds a lot like what you don't like in his approach, so why are you using a different flavor what you don't like when he does it?

Anoited, because I have a past with razor sharp disrespectful judgments and angry outbursts, I have read your posts with keen interest. I believe you are receiving a lot of excellent advice. It seems from your writing that your husband and you both grow greatly frustrated when you don't meet each other's expectations. I expect both of you know intuitively that if you get into angry outbursts infront of the kids that it is not in their best interest.
I suggest a small step... discuss the issue of disagreements in front of the kids with your husband. Try getting enthusiastic mutual agreement to not fight in front of the kids. It is a basic step and should be agreed to with enthuwsiasm. You could use a victory. Not everyohne learns the same way and your husband may not be a book learner. Arrange a physical place where you both can discuss tough issues and agree to it. Make your bedroom a safe place and never talk difficult issues there. Make it a rule not to talk difficult subjects within 3 hours of bed time. It should not be hard to just practice the policy of never making decisions without Joint Mutual Enthusiastic Agreement by starting with the above.
If your husband sees your pleased with these agreements....
He will have some victories to celebrate. He wants to make you happy or he would not be with you.
Some of your issues now are very big. Start with some small ones that are easier to conquor.
Blessings,
Me BS 56
She WW 50
Hers 18, 22
Mine 22, 28, 30
Ours DS 12
D-Day 1 - April 26 2009
D-Dapy 2 - October 15 2009
Exposed February 22, 2010
Me: Reforming Verbal Abuser (and I always will be).
She: still won't divulge OM # 2 despite overwhelming evidence, but slowly, ever so slowly, she is turning towards me. Some days I have hope and that is worth all the pain and patience.

There is so much to digest here, and it is all very good. I'll need to let it sink in. I just started reading the first chapter of Love Busters to him tonight, and I'm feeling more humbled. I do see your point about focusing on building love. There is still a lot of hurt that wells up in me even as I write this post, but my husbands heart towards me is ultimately for my good.

I'm very grateful for this post Enlightened_Ex. I have been justifying. I hope the education we receive as we read together is the start of something new. I'm grateful that he's willing for me to read to him. We didn't make it quite thru the first chapter before he fell asleep in my lap. It's a sweet moment.

Please don't give up on me. I really do want to learn.

Thank you hurtingturkey. These are very good suggestions. I agree that we need to make a point not to argue in front of the kids. It has gotten better thru the years but when it's bad , it's BAD. You are right. We could use a victory. I'll talk with him.

Thank you.

I'm reading your post again, and I mean it. Thank you.

So yesterday we had a conversation that typically would lead to a nasty argument. I tried the phrase "you may be right" and it didn't kill me. Lol
When Enlightened_Ex said I don't have to understand his point of view, it changed some things for me. I can see how it would feel like he couldn't have an opinion unless it made sense to me. We don't have to agree, just be respectful of each others opinions.

He did have an AO during the discussion, and I asked if we could talk later because I wasn't feeling well and started to cry. (I get sick sick to my stomach when people are upset with me. I'll work on that) My husband softened and hugged me at that point, but I did instinctively say "don't" when he came towards me which hurt his feelings. I told him I shouldn't have said an I didn't mean it.

The vulnerability is new. I've tried it before but have retracted into my shell in the past.

We have finished reading the first chapter of Love Busters as of last night.

We have a lot of people praying for us. Thank y'all.

Annointed, I encourage you to keep letting him know you'll need to talk later instead, like you did last night. It's understandable that you didn't want a big at that moment, it's hard to bond with someone after an AO, it talks a little time. You're doing great, injecting respect, I'm glad that resonated with you.

I had an AO today; it wasn't as nasty as normal but still argumentative. I wasn't humble. I wish I had been.

For the last several days, my hubby and I had a pretty hectic schedule with the kids, and we kept going to bed late (I was even going to bed later than him which is unusual). We weren't connecting or reading Lovebusters. We did go to the gym together last night, but DH had a painful problem in his back and neck and kept complaining about it.

When we got home we made sure the kids were all asleep, and I took a shower. Then I popped DH's back (even though I really don't like to do it...it makes me nervous..I have no training in that area whatsoever). He was in a lot of pain and couldn't wait until his chiropractor appt today. We watched some TV and then when we got in bed he asked for SF. I said that I wasn't feeling very close to him...

Then we fell asleep.

I could've done something to feel close to him. He could have done something to help me feel close, but we just went to sleep. And I dreamed he was mad at me all night.

When he came home for lunch today he did say that it hurt his feelings. I said that I didn't mean to hurt his feelings, I was just trying to tell him that I was feeling distant. He said that I basically just said "no." I could see why he felt that way since I just left my statement hanging. I wasn't saying no to sex... I was look for intimate sex.

I'm sure I'm all wrong here. I explained that it was similar to the part in Lovebusters where the wife felt "raped" when they had sex without intimacy, and he took great offense to that. I told him that I felt used sometimes when my needs aren't being met. He said if men did that to women and felt "used" everytime they were being nice and didn't get sex, then we'd never get anywhere!

That's when I was angry. I kept interrupting (dumb) and telling (not asking) him to stop trying to change how I feel about it. It felt like a threat: "If I don't get sex, I'm going to say I feel used when I have to still be nice." I told him that he was free to feel that way. Just don't try to change how I feel when we have sex without intimacy.

I'm sure I completely screwed this up! I guess I should have just met his need for SF. I just felt especially distant and didn't want to feel empty afterwards. Now he feels rejected.

No no no. You should POJA SF otherwise you will resent it.
Part of the problem is that stereotypically, "Women need intimacy to want SF, and Men need SF to feel intimate."

Part of the problem is that your ENs are not being met or he is Love Busting.
Maybe you could tell him "I understand that you felt rejected the other night, and I don't really want that to be the situation. I would rather feel close to you and want SF rather than have to tell you I am not feeling close and therefore don't want SF. I know it can be different for guys...the SF makes you feel closer but with women we want to feel close for SF. What would help with me feeling closer is <how he could meet an EN> and <how he could refrain from a love buster.>.
I want to feel close to my husband. Let's work on getting there together."

The old chicken and egg argument.

You complain about not feeling close, but then reject his attempt to be close. After all, there is nothing that gets you closer and more intimate than SF.

But that is your choice, and you have to live with the consequences of your choice.

So the question is, if you don't feel close, what are YOU DOING to get closer to him? Is rejecting SF getting you closer or further away?

Of course, the other side of the coin is reflected in what Wannabophim mentioned. If you resent SF, then it's not going to draw you close to him.

So rather than focus on what you think you did wrong, what can you do to negotiate a solution to the problem?

I.E. can you get beyond talking about how things make you feel and get to what you are going to do the next time this situation presents.

This program really isn't much about feelings, other than avoiding things you know make LB withdrawals and avoiding resentment. It's more about taking action.

So what actions can you and your husband take the next time this comes up?

"I'm sorry, dear. I don't really want to meet your need for conversation today, because I'm not feeling connected to you."

Take that perspective.

When SF, in your mind, becomes about fulfilling a need, and about making you and your spouse happy and in love, you will see that it is an opportunity to connect, and not currency paid as a reward for connection.

This goes for all Emotional Needs.

The resentment comes not from meeting our spouse's needs, but from our attitude about meeting those needs BEFORE we are even presented with the opportunity to meet them; in other words, our disrespectful judgements towards our spouses, and towards their emotional needs.

I disagree....I will have conversations with people that I won't have SF with. SF is a more intimate need than that.

Actually it's saying "I don't feel like meeting X emotional need." You can throw in DS, SF, C, etc.

The program relies on meeting each others ENs. She needs to express how she's feeling, he should ackowledge and do better. Teh answer is not for her to withold meeting his ENs.

No, she should not withhold the meeting of his emotional needs, but it should be done in a way that pleases them BOTH, not just ONE. For example, if my H asks me to have SF with him 5 times a day and I don't want to do that, then what is the solution? The solution is to use the POJA to find a way to meet his need in way that does not erode the love in our marriage. If she meets that need in a way that makes her unhappy, then pretty soon she won't be meeting that need at all.

It is the same with any other emotional need. If one of my EN's is converstation and my H comes home exhausted from a meeting, I am certainly not going to expect or demand that he meet that need when he doesn't feel like it. Besides I don't want to converse with someone when he is exhausted. I want to do it when he well rested and energetic.

t/j to kiltedthrower: howdy pardner!!

Hey, Melody! Wait! So you're saying you wouldn't follow him around the house from room to room demanding he talk to you or else???

Thank you Mel and KT for fleshing it out fully.

So I have been digesting all of this. Enlightened_Ex asked how I can avoid this in the future. The obvious answer is to meet each others' needs. Meeting his need for SF has been a problem due to so many factors, but if all those are stripped away I'd say the most defining problem would be my lack of feeling completely "safe" with him.

I finally met his need for SF last night after being sick for 2 days last week and then having a major blowup Sat. It was actually about marriage builders. My hubs doesn't see how POJA could ever work, and I told him that was discouraging to me since I'm not willing for either one of us to "lose" in negotiation. Then he said that I was not allowing him to have an opinion about MB because I told him I was discouraged by his stance. It has become one of the last strands of hope, and he shot it down. He's still willing to read though.

I then said that at least I was trying to bring solutions to the table. Instead of shooting down the things I suggest, what were his suggestions? He had none. He had to leave. I then told him not to come back. I deeply regret saying it since I'm actually not feeling as hopeless as I was in July.

We still keep going round and round, but I am being more truthful and am allowing myself a voice. I keep trying to remember to say "you may be right." Lord, help me.

And thank you ALL for your input! I'm out here drowning and your words put things in perspective. What you do on this board is invaluable!

He doesn't see it because you've not demonstrated how the program ensure he has his needs met.

If you are just now getting around to SF, then how is that showing him that the program and it's components such as the POJA are a valuable tool he can use to negotiate to have his needs met?

He doesn't see it because you haven't showed it to him. If you want him to buy off on the program, then you have to make a convincing sales pitch and provide continuing service after the sale.

So what's motivates him? What in the program would HE find appealing? Not what you find appealing, what would cause him to buy into the program.

Us the POJA to negotiate SF for the next week, and then fulfill the negotiated SF? Use the POJA to negotiate something that he wants to do in the near futures. Something days away that he wants to do so he can connect the POJA negotiation with getting to do that thing he wants to do but doean't feel like you are on-board.

You can't just say we are going to use the POJA because it's a good thing. You have to show him how using the POJA as well as the rest of the program provides him with a more fulfilling and wonderful life.

Maybe there are things he does for you that he resents. Think of something like that and say you are going to use the POJA to negotiate a solution he loves. If he doesn't want to do it then perhaps he can negotiate a solution where he doesn't have to perform the unpleasent task for you any longer...

But you have to take on the Missouri apporach and simply show him concrete exaples of the POJA in action and to his benefit.

Oh, one more thing. Why not just validate what he's said. If he doesn't see it, then instead of telling him how you feel, what could you have said to validate it?

How about acknowledge where he was and if he would be up for using it to address something he has a problem with such as the frequency oF SF or some unpleasant task as described above.

I just wanted to let you know my H is exactly like yours. I will be following your thread. **Hugz***

I've been meeting his SF needs pretty well I think. He said not too long ago that I was doing a good job meeting his needs. We have not been reading any more of Lovebusters, and as much as I hate to read it without him, I guess I'd better since I'm not doing so great lately with the AO.

I'm just going to lay out my frustration in my marriage bluntly at the risk of sounding judgemental. My husband went to seminary. We had plans to serve in the ministry. We quit the ministry not long after the affairs ended and we never got back into it. I have waited these 13 years for my husband to take a leadership role in our spiritual walk as a family.

Our family is not a gracious family. Our family is defensive because we all point fingers. Grace. That is what we need, and we just don't know what it looks like.

I realize that I am in control of myself and can show grace no matter what anyone else does. This is something I have struggled with so much. I get easily discouraged and fall into the old patterns which only shows me my weakness.

Recently I got so discouraged with my husband's frustration with God, that I told him I was unable to shoulder the burden of carrying him in his walk with Christ any longer. It was a tough conversation, and I had an AO at the end. I'm pretty sure I was disrespectful too.

The next day he said he'd like to start praying with me at night, and he has for the last 4 days or so.

Then last night we had an argument bc I asked him to take our youngest with him to get his haircut so I could actually get some work done. (She is 2 and working from home is becoming more and more difficult)

The back story is he had already tried to get his hair cut for the last hour and they didn't fit him in. Then he came home in a horrible mood and was just having an AO in general in frustration.. I called him out on it bc he was lashing out at pretty much everyone, and he felt I was disrespectful in doing so. I was saying low under my breath, "hey, watch how you're talking". He then decided to bring our kids to music lessons and was going to get a haircut in between. I said I needed him to bring our youngest so I could get my work done and he basically said no, that he didn't need her running around.

I told him he could put her in the stroller like I do when I get my haircut. He walked out the door with the older kids and left me with the toddler still eating dinner, a mess in the kitchen, and hours of work to be done. I felt abandoned.

We tried to talk it out last night, and I was stupid enough to try to do it while he was working on his other job. It was late and I was afraid we'd go to bed angry. I wasn't talking sweetly, and I don't know what I thought would be accomplished in the 30-45 min I wasted of his time.

Basically, I felt abandoned and disregarded, and he just wanted some time to himself. No POJA. What am I saying? We don't know how to POJA! After he finished work at around midnight he asked if I wanted to finish the conversation. I said that I didn't want to keep him up, I just wanted us to be better. He said he was sorry for being rude earlier, and I think I just laid there on the couch. I feel paralized in what to say sometimes. It just causes more problems, and I'm sure it's just my pride getting in the way. I don't feel safe to express my feelings.

All that being said, our best friends are now going thru infidelity and we have been transparent about our problems with it in the past and guided them thru marriage builders. The BH posts here and is getting good advice.

He sent us a message this morning about how cold his WW is, and it triggered me. Then my FWH called to say he'd be having a business lunch with his team today and sent me a copy of the invite. Both men and women to attend. I started feeling uncertain after the trigger and our unresolved conflict and sent this text:

Me: I really don't feel comfortable with you going out to lunch today.

FWH: Seriously!?!? I sent you the invitation. It will not look good if I don't go. Our entire group is going, half today, half next week. I'll tell you where and you can follow me and sit in the parking lot. Thanks for telling me how you feel. Frankly, I can't even tell if I'm mad or just hurt. Where's the win -win in this?? What is with this attitude? If that's the case then no bible study or worship cause I have no idea what goes on there and I'm left to trust, and accoding to you that could be dangerous.

Me: I was just telling you that I don't feel comfortable and you are punishing me. Go if you need to.

Nothing will get better in your marriage as long as you keep having AOs. When are you planning on stopping them?

The demands and disrespect on your part aren't working too well for you, either, are they.

You can control yourself. When do you plan to start?

BTW, never confront someone who is having an AO. He is temporarily insane at that moment, and it will only make things worse.

Remove yourself and your children from the situation. If he balks, then tell him he's having an AO and you're not going to talk to him until he's been calm for an hour. Then leave. Don't try to have a conversation or to straighten him out. Just leave.

I realize I'm not doing my part. Thanks for the reply Prisca. I'm just not sure how to do it. God is working on my heart in the direction of being personally responsible, and I know I can do this. There are times when I do a great job with his AO, but yesterday was not one of them.

And his response to my feelings in the text is pretty typical.

This is good Prisca. I've never thought of AO that way. We were all eating dinner, and he was ranting in the kitchen. So, I should just get up and bring my 12, 10, and 2 year old where? They had to leave in about 10 minutes and needed to finish dinner! Just need some thinking outside the box for future reference since our schedule is so tight on most weekdays.

So maybe I demanded he bring my toddler instead of requested. The atmosphere was ugly but it doesn't change how I should respond. I said I need you to instead of will you please. I'm so bad at this!!

And I just opened the oven door to find all my hard work was left in the oven overnight! What a day!

What are you going to do to change that?
Be specific.

You sure did.

You were also not willing to accept a "no" for an answer. You are still very much willing to gain at your husband's expense.

When was the last time you read Lovebusters? This is how Dr. Harley describes an AO.

Couldn't be much tighter than mine -- I got 6 young kids.
I guess you need to decide which is more important -- the kids finishing dinner, or escaping the emotional damage of an AO for both you and the kids, and also removing yourself from the chance of responding with your OWN AO.

It doesn't matter where you go, just that you are out of the situation, and he has at least an hour to calm down. You also need at least an hour to calm down.

The lovebusters and their fallout MUST stop one way or another. Your marriage doesn't have a chance, otherwise. How are you going to do it?

Thanks Prisca. Specifically, to start doing my part I'm going to read Lovebusters on my own since we've barely gotten past Chapter 1 together. That's a start.

These specifics are very helpful to me. Thank you.

Start with the chapter on Demands, then come back with a plan you've created on how to eliminate those in yourself.

Get Dr. Harley's workbook "5 Steps to Romantic Love" and use his forms to help you come up with a plan.

Do the same with Disrespectful Judgments and AOs.

It's time for you to stop talking about how you're not good at this, and actually start doing some work on getting good at it

I'm really grateful. Right now things are getting tighter than ever financially, and I keep buying all these books that aren't getting read! I'll change that. Maybe tomorrow I can call in to the radio show and see if they'll send me 5 Steps to Romantic Love.

I'm really grateful for this eye opener. It's really great that you were able to see what I need to work on based on my side of the story alone. I can only imagine what you'd see if my husband posted here!

Thanks.

Calling the radio show is an excellent idea.

I read the chapter on Selfish Demands tonight. We were just about to get there together, but it was good to read it myself and not TO my husband as if I'm instructing him. Open and honest, right? Well, my pride is a huge problem.

I need to tell him what I would like and then ask how he would feel about that with every intention of retracting my request if there is not enthusiastic agreement. Then, maybe I could make a different thoughtful request if my need is not met.

I'm afraid. I'm afraid he will never meet my needs without a demand, and I'm afraid he will be mean when I am nice. That's the truth.

But something has to change and it's up to me.

*note- this very instant I changed a demand into a thoughtful request, and it went alright. But he did sigh on his way out of the room. Should I have called for him and said nevermind?

A very common feeling. Dr. Harley addresses this in his article on the Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation.


Making requests instead of demands is going to take practice. But you can do it. Start by apologizing to your husband for being demanding of him. Let him know that you DO care for his wants and needs, and that you DO NOT want to gain at his expense. Ever. Tell him you're going to start making requests of him instead of demands, and if he doesn't want to do what you ask, that you will accept a "no." Tell him you'd like to start negotiating, so that both of your needs can be met in a way that makes both of you happy.

This is what the Policy of Joint Agreement is based on. Don't do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse AND don't agree to do anything unless you're enthusiastic about it.

Read that article above that I linked to on Successful Negotiation.

It sounds like he agreed to your request because he thought he had to, not because he was enthusiastic. He's probably in the habit of doing that, actually, because of your lovebusters. If he doesn't do what you want, you're going to get disrespectful and angry, and so it's just easier sometimes to give in.

Right now he suspects that anything you ask of him is a demand, because it has always been that way. Or at least as long as he can remember. Whenever you ask him to do something, and he says "no," you punish him with disrespect and anger.

You can phrase something as a request and it still is a demand -- for example, you can ask him to watch your child while you run an errand. It may sound like a request at first, but quickly turns into a demand when you will not accept a "no":

"Honey, will you watch Joey for me while I run to the store?"
"No, I can't right now."
"Oh you Lazy Bum, he's your kid too! Do I have to do everything around here?! Fine, don't help, I didn't need your help anyway ..."

You need to let him know that you do not want him to agree to something if he is not enthusiastic about it, and that YOU WILL NOT PUNISH HIM IF HE SAYS NO. And you need to live up to that. It may be a while before he trusts your requests as actual requests and not thinly veiled demands.

Practice the phrases "How do you feel about ..." or "I would like this, what do you think?" Practice taking HIS feelings into account in EVERYTHING you do.

This may be a good thing for you to ask Dr. Harley about on his radio show.

Have you contacted the show yet?

Thank you Prisca. I do feel naked, but I know it's good to make these changes. My husband always said he didn't feel safe with me but I disregarded it bc I didn't feel safe with him! It's been so ugly, and we truly have wanted to do good things for each other. We haven't had the tools. We have never seen a relationship like Dr Harley describes, and we are Christians who grew up in Christian homes!

I will try to read that article tonight.

And yes my requests have always been demands bc his no would hurt my feelings and I would think, "that couldn't be right!" so I'd try to stand up for my feelings out of fear.

I went to this site to get info to call in this afternoon and saw that I had to email first, so I did. I basically asked what you suggested.

I really appreciate your input Prisca. Thanks.

The naked feeling will go away when you're in the habit of using POJA and Negotiation, and both of you protect each other at all costs. You're putting down your weapons, and it's scary. But there's something a lot better for both of you. Fall in love, and who cares if you're naked

You can do this, it's just going to take work. And a commitment to follow the program every day.

Does your husband post here?

Great to hear you emailed the radio show. Watch your spam filter -- sometimes it catches Joyce Harley's response to you. If you haven't heard back in a few days, you might want to email again. It seems like sometimes the first email gets lost.

And be sure to let us know when you'll be on!

There is nothing that says you have to accept him just giving in.

Now I don't mean coping an attitude and saying with a head bob, "If you don't want to do it, then don't."

Why not try something like, "You don't sound very enthusiastic about this. Our relationship is more valuable than me getting my way at what appears to be your expense. Let's take a break from this and return to it ________ with some ideas. Maybe you have an idea you are more enthusiastic about, or maybe I can think of a different way to accomplish this.

Is it OK with you if we return to this at a later time with some new ideas?"

And leave it.

He may become enthusiastic, or he may shock you with something even better than what you were thinking.

Or he may not.

But you have to begin the habit of not accepting acquiescence. You can't force him to negotiate, but you can always refuse his surrender.

I have been learning. Here is my attempt at locating my own DJ's:

Prisca had a major influence on helping me understand SD. I started working on that going into last weekend, and it really made a difference when we went to a marriage retreat.

The biggest thing I learned at the marriage retreat was VALIDATION. I just did not comprehend what that looks like. The retreat focused on it, and it helped me understand the difference between feeling statements and judgments.

We are practicing what we've learned, and I'm looking forward to moving on in the LoveBusters book. I've read some more to my husband during our trip out of town, but this time it was at his request. He is learning how to make thoughtful requests as well.

He is also acknowledging my need for him to step up as spiritual leader which makes me feel 1000% better!

So far, I'm addressing SD and DJ. The next thing to work on is AO.

I've tried implementing with my kids what I learned over the weekend, but it doesn't all apply since I am in authority over them. I'm trying to use more feeling statements, and I've begun to recognize just how many DJ I use with them! This must change. I'm having to change my approach with the hubby and the kids at the same time, and the curve balls I'm getting from the kids have thrown me for a loop. I wish we had something like this for parenting!

Anyway, thanks to you all for helping me make the right steps forward in my relationship, and thanks for helping our friends through their infidelity issues. Priceless!

We've also implemented some of these things with our children. It's a little different, as you say, because there is some authority there on your part as the parent. But, even children do not deserve AOs or DJs. You have accounts in their lovebanks, too. And you can just as easily drain their lovebanks with verbal abuse as you can your spouse.

I've also used the terminology with them, hoping to train them to see these things in themselves --
"You're having an Angry Outburst. Go sit down in your room until you are calm."
"You are being demanding. You can make requests, not demands."
"You are being disrespectful, and here's why."

A lot of these things are a lifestyle change, not just things to do for your marriage. When you can be respectful of your kids, you are building a habit that will make it easier to be respectful of your husband. When you are not demanding of the store cashier, you are building a habit that will make it easier to not demand from your husband. When you do not allow yourself to have an AO at bad drivers, you are building a habit that will make it easier to avoid AOs with your husband.

Good job on recognizing your own demands. That's a very good habit to put into place.

Did you ever get a hold of the radio show?

I didn't get an email back, but I just remembered that you said it might be in my spam folder. I'll look. If not, I'll send the email again.

Thanks Prisca.

Not getting a response at first seems to be a fairly common problem. I don't know if they have a bad spam filter or what. So, yeah, just send another email if you don't have a response. And if that doesn't work, you might ask the moderators for help -- they might could get in contact with him for you.

Mrs Harley asked that I call her this morning, and she was very nice.

I am scheduled to be on the show this coming Monday.

That's great, Anointed! We'll be listening!

Can't wait to hear

Well, for some reason the show kept calling my cell # and got a busy signal the entire time. My phone was on and able to receive calls, so I'm not sure what happened. I was really disappointed.

Mrs. Harley has already responded to my email regarding not getting on the show (it is 15 min after the show ended!), and she says she addressed my question. I will listen to the rebroadcast.

She also offered to send me HNHN, but I requested 5 Steps To Romantic Love. I hope she is able to send it.

Oh, she just responded again and said they were one # off on my cell #.

Sorry to hear that Haven't heard the show yet, but Markos and I will probably listen to it later.

Markos and I listened to it tonight. Good show Sorry they weren't able to get you on live.

BTW, I was talking to Markos about you tonight, and I wanted to let you know that you're impressing me. When you came face to face with your demands and DJs, you didn't become defensive or try to justify your behavior. You've taken responsibility for your own actions, and have made great strides in controlling yourself and changing your marriage.

You go girl. Keep it up.

Wow, Prisca. Thanks.

That means a lot.

I still have a looooong way to go!

MrAnointed sent me a text today that said he read my entire thread and is now feeling lonely and insecure.

I responded with: "I understand that you feel lonely and insecure. I didn't intend to make you feel that way with my posts. I'm sorry I hurt you, sweetie."

Is that right? And now what? I get to have my feelings, right? My stomach hurts, and I have a lump in my throat like I've done something wrong.

I don't think I misrepresented him, but who's to say?

I don't like hurting him. We need help.

If those were his actual words I find them very interesting. They indicate vulnerability - not necessarily a bad thing.

I think your response was perfect. You could use this oppty to talk to him about - and validate! - his feelings, and reassure him that your most fervent desire is for a marriage that makes you both happy.

Then, urge him to start his own thread.

Not surprising. You did a lot of ranting, with DJs and such.
It is good to keep in mind that when you post here, your spouse will more than likely read what you've said. And if you DJ them here in a rant, it will hurt them just as bad as if you said it to their face.

I've found the best way to get rid of my own DJs was to stop allowing myself to rant at all. It will hurt your spouse, eventually. You don't need it. You can solve your conflicts without it.

Work on ALWAYS speaking respectfully of your husband.


I think your response was good. I would also go on to admit that you were wrong to DJ him, and reassure him that you are dedicated to eliminating all DJs from here on out.

DJing is wrong, always is. You can express your feelings without DJing him in the process. You can feel hurt or sad about something he's done, but that doesn't give you the right to abuse him -- even behind his back.

I think he is the one to say on that.

Most DJs are a misrepresentation, are they not?

Does he have a high need for admiration?

Dr. Harley has said that those of us with a high need for admiration are hit HARDER by DJs than everybody else.

Thanks kerala. I have always hoped that he would post here. I don't know if he will, but I think it would be quite beneficial for us.

Prisca, once again, I really appreciate your input. I see what you are saying about the DJ's (even in my own blogging). It's weird that I wouldn't have come to that conclusion on my own since I'm always talking about how powerful words are (even if the person I am talking about is not in earshot).

Something that I really admired about my daddy (he died when I was 19) is that I never once heard him talk negatively about anyone. EVER. And he had many, many occasions to do so. I really respect him for that.


Yes, I agree. I will talk to him.

Thanks Prisca. I need to completely get rid of that old thinking. I never have an excuse to abuse someone...my husband, my kids, the person driving crazy in front of me.

Assuming what anyone thinks or feels is a completely arrogant way of thinking...this is something I have fought tooth and nail in other people...all the while I was doing it myself.

I hope my husband will post here. And if you read this, MrAnointed, I am truly sorry for all the disrespectful things I said about you and for all the judgements I made. It wasn't fair, and it is not the way I'd like to be treated. I hope you will forgive me.

We still haven't done the needs questionaire. I hope we can do that together soon. I would think he probably does need admiration since he indicated on our marriage retreat that he needs to feel appreciated.

Self introspection is not the most enjoyable activity, but despite my feelings of failure, I am also feeling excited. I am learning new things, and that means we have a chance to do something new in our marriage.

Thank God.

Last night I apologized for the DJ in my thread. I also told him I was feeling insecure and unsure around him since I'm not sure how he will respond to things. I feel this way when he's upset with the kids too. He has AO quite a bit.

He said he understood that I felt insecure and could see why I'd feel unsure about how he'd react. He also said we were distant and that he's looking for intimacy.

I have not done a good job meeting his needs for SF this week. I don't know if it matters, but I started personal therapy for sexual abuse as a child this week, and I had two difficult sessions back to back on top of a demanding schedule. I'm feeling incredibly vulnerable and wrapped up in myself. I know this cannot continue.

Right after our discussion about my insecurities (we are talking a few minutes) he started having another AO because we were going to be late for something. I was shocked since I thought I'd given us enough time to get there (we were 2 min late, so I didn't) and I had JUST told him how insecure I was feeling due to his reactions. He kept trying to go on about it in the car, and I calmly told him to stop talking about it to me right now because I didnt like the way he was talking to me and we could talk about it later. He said ok but then added "I feel disrespected when you make me late."

I have been in withdrawal ever since and am afraid to deal with it. I don't feel safe.

I don't blame you for not feeling safe, anointed. His angry outbursts are the issue, here. Not you "disrespecting him" by "making him late." He is demanding that you have everything scheduled, judging you for not doing it, and having an angry outburst to punish you for not getting it done.

Here is what Dr. Harley posted to my wife on his private forum:


He was right. Even if your husband "feels disrespected," he should not be responding with angry outbursts. Abuse (demands, disrespect, and anger) does not justify abuse, although people who live with it do tend to become abusive themselves.

Let me tell you that as a father of six small children, I have been late to a lot of things, and I have had a lot of tension and frustration over that. I have had to learn how to stay completely relaxed in the face of frustrating scenarios like this (and many others). It takes an enormous amount of practice.

Do you think your husband would be willing to put a call in to Dr. Harley on his radio show?

I think it might help to be more direct to him. "Your angry outbursts are a massive problem for me. I do not believe we can have a good marriage until you overcome this problem."

I've been there, and angry too at the same time.

Mr. Anointed, if you're reading -- come here. We can help you get that intimacy.

This is a very important point. When your husband has an angry outburst toward this children, it is also a withdrawal from his account in your love bank, which is why you feel the same way.

Over a year ago when Prisca started communicating about my angry outbursts to me, I was upset that she included angry outbursts toward the children. I thought she wasn't being fair. But of course, she was -- her emotions felt absolutely the same way when I was angry with the children. And it was important for her to communicate that to me.

In fact, earlier this year Prisca marked down an angry outburst I had at a Burger King drive through. Again my first thought was that this was unfair -- after, all I wasn't angry with her! But of course she was right. My being out of control toward anyone in her presence is enough to make her feel unsafe and debit my account in her love bank. Plus, even if I'm not angry toward her, being angry at all is reinforcing the habit of anger, making it easier to become angry with her in the future.

It has to be completely eliminated. And it can be completely eliminated.

Markos is right, your husband is making demands, DJing you for not following through with the demand, and punishing you with an AO.

You did great not responding in kind. That is always the tempting thing to do.

You will not feel like "dealing with it" until he makes you safe. The only way he can make you safe is by eliminating the AOs completely. Neither of you should ever tolerate letting yourself lose control with an AO.

Have you gotten "5 Steps to Romantic Love" yet? It contains forms to help eliminate AOs.

How is your UA time?
How many hours?

Forgive me if you've already answered this, but have you invited Mr.Anointed to create his own account and start posting here? Markos has made great strides in controlling his own anger, and could help him learn some practical tools.

I just want to testify a bit to this;

My W will AO if she can't find something. It's not directed toward anybody, but it can seriously plummet my mood in short order.

It is especially noticeable when your LB$ balance is low.

UPDATE:

I'm still in complete withdrawal and have not met his need for SF. It has now been over a week, and he says it feels like much longer for him.

We tried to talk about what happened 2 separate times on Saturday. I explained why I was in withdrawal, and he stated several times that getting aggravated is going to happen. I asked him if that was an excuse to have an AO? I told him when I tried to make excuses for my poor behavior on this forum, I was ripped to shreds. (*as well I should be, and I'm very grateful for that.)

He asked that we talk again later Saturday afternoon, and we did. I finally shared some details about what happened during my therapy sessions earlier last week regarding my sexual abuse. I then told him about an incident with my first boyfriend when I put myself in a bad position and something sexual happened even though I said no. He then went on a long lecture about how I can't blame the guy 100% since I put myself in such a situation. It wasn't a simple sentence...it was a long, angry lecture about how I can't blame him for everything and that I need to take responsibility. WTH? I jerked myself right back into my shell after that and explained to him why. He apologized for lecturing me, but the damage was done.

I told him I wanted to stop and get ready to leave so that I wouldn't make him late, but I also wanted to be sure we made time that evening for SF. He said he missed that.

When we got in the car I told him I really need to get unlimited texting since people text me all the time now. He then said that it doesn't make any sense to do that since I never have my phone on me anyway. Again, WTH? We JUST connected emotionally...I shared my intimate feelings and explained that I was feeling especially sensitive and he criticizes me right off the bat.

I then said that I would like for him to say, "I feel____ when you don't have your phone on you." rather than the criticism. I said to him "I feel disrespected and unappreciated when you say I never have my phone on me because there are lots of times I DO have my phone." He said that I'm not doing my job when I don't have my phone on me since I have agreed to answer some business calls for him on my phone. The calls are rare, and there have been some instances when I've missed calls. I then told him he is free to take those calls himself because I feel unappreciated. He said, "How would you talk to an employee of yours who did not always have his cell phone?" I told him that I wouldn't talk to an employee the same way I'd talk to me because I'm an EQUAL and not a SUBORDINATE.

I told him that I was hearing DJ from him, and that I could say "I feel like you are a big jerk" but that wouldn't make it a feeling statement. He smiled but the conversation was over because we were at our destination.

When we left, we dropped by a family member's house. Then we got dinner and picked up some reserved movies. We watched movies until 2am and were noticeably distant.

We went to bed. No SF.

Yesterday we busied ourselves with our own independent projects and barely spoke. I snapped at him once in the kitchen, but other than that. We are completely withdrawn.

Not sure what to do. I've felt so hurt and unsure for many years as I've brought up this stuff before but didn't have the terminology to explain myself.

This sucks.

Thank you markos. I appreciate the validation.

I'm not sure if he'd put a call in to the radio show or not. We are in withdrawal, and I've been afraid to approach him.

Wow. Just the thought of pointing my finger directly at him like that scares the crap out of me. I've done it many times in the past, but now that I'm being vulnerable and don't have my weapons of retaliation I am terrified of saying this.

But I will.

Wow. Thank you.

We haven't received the book yet, and our UA time is severely lacking. When we were working out regularly together it was probably about 8 hrs a week. UA has been pretty much nonexistent this week.

I have asked MrAnointed to post here several times with no direct answer.

Thank you HHH.

There have been so many times throughout the years that I've been almost convinced that I was asking too much by wanting the AO and DJ to stop.

I just didn't know the terminology. I would just complain that his behavior bothered me. I didn't know what exactly it was but I knew I didn't like it.

Also, I did want to mention that MrAnointed witnessed his father have AO while growing up.

I have personally heard his father berate his mother in such a way that I was positive he was speaking to a dog he hated. I was shocked that he was actually speaking to his wife that way. I was very close to letting him know how inappropriate it was, but thought better of it. (We were on a family vacation together with all of my husband's siblings.)

Maybe I'll start to feel stronger soon. I am dealing with some old wounds in therapy, and now I'm facing these issues in my marriage. It almost feels like too much.

Have you ever seen an armadillo curled up in a ball to protect itself? That's how I feel. I hope my armor is strong enough.

Stop talking directly about the AOs for the moment.

Dr. Harley's plan involves sharing lovebuster sheets once a week. When your spouse lovebusts you, you simply write it down in a log with the date and a description of what happened (leave the DJs out). Then you share it once a week with each other. Don't argue about what's been written, but take it as a way to learn what you're doing to hurt your spouse.

When you have gone 4 weeks without committing the lovebuster, you can consider it eliminated.

That should be the only way you talk to each other about each other's lovebusters. Very few couples can do it face to face while it's happening. Talking about it during the heat of the moment usually will just escalate things.

When he AOs you, don't talk about it then and there. Write it down. Share it later. Our coach had Markos and I sharing these things by email, to avoid the danger of lovebusting each other face to face.

Talk about this plan with him and see if he'll agree to it.


This is part of the problem here. The program will not work if you don't get at least 15 hours UA time in.

When Markos and I drop below the 15 hour mark, the way we treat each other and feel about each other is visibly different. It's very, very easy to fall back into old habits.

Take some time and schedule 15 hours to meet the four intimate EN - SF, Conversation, Affection and Recreational Companionship. Show him the plan and see what he thinks. AVOID RELATIONSHIP TALK DURING THIS TIME LIKE THE PLAGUE. Make this time the most enjoyable time of your week.

To say that ya'll have had a bad week is probably an understatement. Reading through your posts, I see where you both have lovebusted each other. It's time to put the weapons down and get back to work on your relationship. Mr.Anointed, that goes for you too -- the Demands, DJs and AOs MUST stop.

Has he committed to you that he will eliminate the Demands, DJs and AOs?

The two of you can start this week fresh, okay? Don't dwell on the mistakes of this past week, commit to make each other safe by eliminating the lovebusters, and take care of each others EN.

BTW, ((hugs))
Been there, done that. Markos AOs were some of the most devastating experiences I've ever lived through. Dr. Harley is spot on when he calls them abuse.

It can get better, though. You've been learning to control your own anger. Mr.Anointed can learn to control his, too.

Have you considered putting aside that personal therapy for awhile and concentrating that time/effort/money on recovering your marriage? It would be a lot easier to face the old wounds if you're in a wonderful marriage.

Mr.Anointed,
Check out angerbusters.com and consider purchasing the book "Anger Busters 101" by Newton Hightower. It is the best book on anger for men written by an Anger Management Coach. Protect your wife. Read it.

Anointed, if you want to click notify and ask the Mods for my email address, I'd like to exchange email addresses with you. Markos and I would like to send you some books.

UPDATE:

Last night I told him that even though we were both sad that I'd like to meet his need for SF.

In the past the thought of being intimate while he's upset with me made me feel degraded. There has been a lot of fear.

This time there was no fear. I just wanted to meet his need.

Okay. I've still been quite frightened but I'm willing to talk to him.


Ok, I'm actually nervous about this one, too. I'll work on it.


No, he has not. He hasn't been reading Lovebusters like I have. I hope he commits to this with me.

Yes, I have. I actually started going to therapy at MrAnointed's request. It affects SF somewhat, and after going to 2 sessions I see that I am truly affected by what happened to me.

I'll talk to him and see if he'd like me to put it on hold until we get going with MB.

Wow. I've been talking to MrAnointed about you guys like we hang out together. I am truly very grateful for your contributions on my thread. I've had my eyes opened. Thank you.

I think I would take just this issue and contact the radio show again about it.

Do you think Mr.Anointed would enjoy listening to the radio show? They talk about these lovebusters on a regular basis, and the need to eliminate them.

Is he much of a reader? If not, Lovebusters comes as an audio version.
Correction: I misremembered. It's not Lovebusters that comes as a audio book, but "Fall in Love, Stay in Love" which covers some similar material.

My DH isn't a reader, so I've read most of the books aloud to him. Would that be an option for y'all?

Anointed, here is a radio show segment you might find interesting. It's on the subject of AOs -- basically an overview of the AO chapter in Lovebusters.

I also found that a lot of Dr. Harley's advice on eliminating AOs, and the anger management material I've been exposed to, has helped me eliminate my DJs as well.

Angry Outbursts Radio Segment

I agree with you. I guess I need to call back in to the show. These last few weeks have been packed with activity, so I've not been doing anything productive regarding our marriage.

I opened the link to the radio show, but it was blank...it wouldn't play. Thanks for your encouragement, Prisca.

Okay, so we are no better off than we were on 11/22. I have not read any more, we have not scheduled UA time, and we are currently in withdrawal again.

This week is going to be extremely hectic again, so I don't see it getting better this week. But next week...

As I've typed our situation out in my head, I can see how this whole thing is probably blown out of proportion for me.

Here it is:
Yesterday morning my husband made a teasing comment about how the pockets on the back of my pants are stretching to their limit...I told him I didn't like it when he says things like that, and he said that it is a fear of his and starts to go on and on in a playful way of all the things that could happen to me if I overeat (double chin, etc). I asked him if his speaking out of fear is getting the results he wants? He said it is a fear, nonetheless.

I am not an overweight person. I have fluctuated about 8 lbs up and down for the last 2 years, since having our youngest. I would like to lose that 8 lbs. I get close and then go back to my unhealthy ways. But I'm not even close to overweight.

What he said hurt me. I felt distrusted and ugly. But he knows I struggle with sweets, and if I were to validate him I could have let him know that I understand his fear and could have talked through some things.

Then I was trying to throw together a quick lunch and thought chili would be a good idea since it was cold. I was going to mix chili in a can with beans in a can and serve with chips, cheese, tomatos, and salad. He said with a smirk, "How are you going to make chili?" When I explained he said, "that is not my idea of chili." I said, "Well, what is your idea of chili." Admittedly I was defensive. He said, "The kinds where you open up a recipe and make some."

Okay, again I felt criticized. And again I could have just validated him and talked through it. I was hurt by this.

I don't remember exactly what I said, but he said I started lecturing him instead of telling him how I feel. I did use feeling words but he said I did it after I lectured him, and he kept saying I needed to bring my AO down a few notches. I was surprised by this since I wasn't yelling, but I must have sounded angry. I asked him how he'd like me to do lunch, and he said nevermind because he's not allowed to have an opinion.

I then went into complete withdrawal...got take out...and pretty much stayed to myself the rest of the day. It probably hurt him quite a bit because we had planned SF that afternoon. He had also made a little jab to me yesterday morning about our last SF because he didn't like how it went last time. (It was late, and I wasn't feeling well.) He still got SF but not the way he wanted it.

Finally, I went grocery shopping last night in the cold rain, and came back still upset from the day. We were putting away groceries and he made a comment about the dog bed I bought. "Could you have picked a prettier color?" I just looked at him. He asked, "What? Am I not allowed to say things like that." I then got snarky and said "Well, it's pretty ignorant because you don't know what plans I have to do with it." He had an AO that included cursing and telling me that since I've been in my own F-ing world all day I can just take care of everything else on my own. I said that I was finished with this conversation, and he kept going. I just would say "Ok" after each comment while I was doing things in the kitchen and he said something about me being a smart alec.

We didn't talk last night; he didn't tell me bye this morning. I was so angry all day I'm not sure I needed to try to work it out right then.

It shouldn't take all day for me to get over things, should it?

How do I validate him when his words are cutting me to the core? Do I just wait and talk about it later? I was super angry all day long, and I was cursing him in my mind and saying all sorts of terrible things in my heart. That's not good.

One other thing was that he said I expect the worst out of him. Throughout our marriage I have felt extremely criticized for just about everything I did. I have been walking on eggshells all along and have not felt safe at all. The criticism had all but killed my love for him just a few months ago.

Are the things he said criticism? Why am I so devastated when he says things like this to me? Shouldn't I be grown up enough to accept his point of view? It feels like my world falls in when he does this.

This is a DJ. I don't know what his intentions were in bringing it up. Probably just complaining so I could meet his needs better, but I felt criticized.

I'm thinking this whole thing is just me being overly sensitive. Does it matter that what he is saying hurts me? How do I make it NOT hurt?

You called him ignorant because he asked about the dogbed? "What color would you prefer? I can return it, and we can shop for one together" would be a CARING response to his comment.

He would like homemade chili. Rather than provide this simple thing, you lectured him about something you don't remember. You can certainly choose to make chili on the fly with cans, but if you do so, understand that this is not what he wants. I've had my own rounds with my H who is very particular, and these kinds of things fall under SDs, if he punishes you for not doing things in the particular way he wants them, it's an SD. If he complains that you aren't listening to what he wants, if he had requested something you refuse to give, this is a COMPLAINT, and totally valid.

Your post does sound a lot like you want to be able to do what you want without any lip from him, which translates to not caring about his complaints. Cool your head and read it again later.

Meantime, you can make it not hurt by recognizing complaints as valid, especially about easy things like dog beds and chili. My goodness, your worth is not wrapped up in dog beds and chili, is it? You can talk to him about how he talks to you, too. Ask him to make requests instead of complaining, and you do your best to honor them or explain why you can't.

I think you would score about 1000 points if you spent 15 minutes making a crock of chili and asking him if he likes it, and then LISTENING to his feedback.

or "That sounds good. Do you have a recipe for Chili you like? I would love to make it with you."

I think "The kinds where you open up a recipe and make some." sounds a bit like "Go make me a sandwich."

For the dog bed, you could say "It's not like you to talk that meanly to me. What's really going on?"

This points out, in a nice way, that he is being super snarky.

If says nothing is going on, then you could say "Perhaps next time you could say that you are not so keen on that color, is it possible to return it for another?"

I understand. I get frustrated with him because I have not been a crafty person in the past. I'm learning to do things I've never done before (out of fear), and he has really liked the things I've done recently. I got a plain plastic container to decorate it and make a pillow to put inside it. He just saw the plastic container and made a comment. A negative one. I'm very insecure about decor and crafts. That is on me.

He has been so quick to speak his mind without asking questions. I feel distrusted.

If I were a confident person, I could have done just what you said. But I'm a mess, and I don't know how to not feel insecure.


I didn't have time to do anything that would take longer than a few minutes because it was already late. There is a history with cooking, too. When we first got married I would try to make things from scratch and bring it to work for him, and he hardly ever had anything nice to say. Maybe I just wasn't a good cook, but it really hurt my feelings. I could've gotten better with encouragement. Over the years I just haven't been enthusiastic about cooking because of his negative comments. I want to feel appreciated. I haven't until recently.


I can see that. I don't want that to be the case. His words REALLY hurt me. Does that matter? What do I do? It cuts me really deep. There must be something horribly wrong with me. I really want to be good enough for him, and I worry that I'm just not.


Logically, I agree 1000%. I understand that little things like this shouldn't mean the end of the world, but yet, here I am typing as tears roll down my face. What is wrong with me?? I would really appreciate it if he would make requests instead of complain because it hurts to be criticized.

What about his comment about my weight? And the SF? It just seems to come at me non-stop when he's in the mood to be negative. I need so much encouragement, and he is not very good at it.

I think that's just it. It's the way he says things. I'm worried he's making fun of me or that the joke's on me in some way. I try really hard to please him, and it just never seems to be enough. (DJ)

I don't think you are fully recovered from his affairs. And that's okay, if ten years later you are still so slammed by slights he should not be doing in the first place.

I do think you're a bit sensitive and could be stronger about your needs and what you perceive to be LBs, and then get bigger stronger by demanding an MB led recovery, followed by big-strong-girl follow-through.

Will you do the online or phone program?

Yikes. That's not a pleasant thought.


I couldn't agree more.


We have all the books, and I intend to read them. And my husband is willing to work on things with me. We went to a marriage retreat last month that was really helpful, and he was all in on that. Does the online program cost money?

I'm about to quit my job, and there won't even be enough extra $$ to go to McDonalds once a week.

I want to express my gratitude to this forum. Before I posted I was like a stone. No feeling.

Now that I've gotten it out, I am crying rivers. LOL I'd rather be hurting than feeling nothing, so thank you. Thank you very much.

I have nothing to add, just wanted to drop a quick not to say two things;

Annointed - excellent work in accepting and examining how you can change your behavior, and CWMI is guiding you perfectly.

Bravo to you both.

Anointed,

I may be way off base here, but my wife recently had an affair so I'm especially sensitive to the topic and something that caught my eye was:
So my question is, who has been appreciating you recently? From your posts, it isn't your husband.

You never exposed, you never did an MB plan for rebuilding, Anointed. I went back and read some of your '08 threads.

You probably won't heal until your H is able to stand before your community repentant for his sins. I think you need that from him. God sure does! Keeping sins secret perpetuates sin.

I don't know what the protocol is on such a late exposure. I do think that you are continuing to suffer because of a failed recovery. All the spinning of wheels over LBs and wah-wahs are not going to recover an unrecovered marriage. What did you do to recover? It sounds like a lot of sweeping under, which as you can see, won't work.

Thanks HHH.

This marriage thing is tough!

I understand, nomoreplease. My husband has been much more appreciative when I cook and has made nice comments about the meals I make.

It wasn't always that way, but I'm glad it is that way now.

Thanks for your post, and I hope you are following the MB plan to the letter. I've not read your situation, but please follow the advice given here.

I wish you the very best!

This has been something I have dealt with for a long time. I didn't know about MB when I found out, and I didn't expose. I really, really wish I had. I think it would have done a lot to heal myself as well as my husband.

There are a handful of people who know, but his family never found out. He asked me for forgiveness in front of another couple who was holding us accountable, but it was right after he had been unfaithful with yet another woman. I wasn't ready to forgive him then. My mom, my best friend, a few counselors, and some random people I don't know well who caught me at a bad time...I just spilled over.

He was very upset with that.

Just recently at the marriage retreat I said that I wanted to be open with what we've experienced because God did such a huge work in our marriage. There is no way we could've made it without Him. I want to brag on God about it. I mean, why go through it if you can't help someone else?

He agrees and understands but says he is just not ready. He did say that he'd like to do a marriage ministry with me. Kinda funny to think of right now with all the trouble we have communicating, but I'm willing to be vulnerable and work through our problems while helping others at the same time!

The hard part about exposure has been that some Christian counselors have agreed with my husband that exposing now would not necessarily be beneficial. His family is not a safe place for him, and the counselor wasn't sure it would be helpful.

I just want some acknowledgement for the pain I suffered! I even have a thread on here about it I think. I don't guess I need people to say "oh you poor thing" but I've been through HELL dang it! And I want to say I've survived!

Whew.

I think you are right. I hope my husband will help me.

Recently, he did share our story with some friends of ours going through an A, and it felt so good to hear him talk about it and admit it.

What did we do to recover?

Well, he did quit his job after an agonizing 4 months... I really wish I'd known about MB. That is where the OW were.

He also quit the ministry. We have EP in place. (No lunches or riding alone with someone of the opposite sex, we have an internet filter on our computer, we share our passwords)

He has asked for forgiveness and has worked to regain my trust. I do trust him. I'll probably always walk with my eyes wide open, but I trust him.

Anointed,

Thanks for the clarification. I hope I didn't offend you. A lot of the things you are saying are things my WW said to me during her A, and while they were all true and things I needed to work on (still do), she never seemed to have a problem with them (or at least never said anything) until her A started.

Actually, your husband sounds a lot like me. If this is true, he probably doesn't know how to communicate his opinions without sounding critical and judgmental. When I do this, my wife gives me a generic "stop being a jerk" or "stop being critical" and I have no idea what this means. I want to express my opinion and have it heard (EN C), but was rejected and have no idea how to do better next time. In my case, the not knowing how to do better next time is incredibly frustrating and makes it much more difficult to not AO.

Can I suggest giving him much more specific ways in which to communicate. For example, it sounds like you have a real problem with the word "should" and my wife had the same complaint. Once we dug this out, we came up with the phrase "I wish you would have" instead of "you should have". To me these mean basically the same thing, but to my wife they are worlds apart and once I knew this I was happy to use it (I still slip up sometimes, but I try).

I know it is difficult in the moment, but I think you may have much better results if you can figure out exactly what he does that makes you feel criticized (a specific word, a look, a tone of voice, etc.) and give him an alternative.

No more, it's super easy to stop sounding critical and judgmental. I just treated my ex as he was a coworker, how would I speak to him then? Sad to think that until then that at times I treated the man I had taken vows to love, honor, and cherish with less respect than my coworkers. You can act better for the sake of the marriage (Buyer's state of mind, working towards the best long-term outcome) even when you're not feeling it for your W(renter's state of mind, willing to gain at her expense).

Do you think this would work for you?

Nomoreplease,

I do not believe my husband tries to have DJ on purpose. I can try to be more specific.

Thanks.

I asked my husband to read my thread again last night, and he did. He is not happy with me.

He said I criticized him a lot , and he really doesn't like talk of exposure. He says he has several counselors backing him that it's not a good idea at this point.

It would be so nice to hear him apologize to our 2 families and ask forgiveness. It would help me so much in my recovery.

He didn't sound willing to post here since he has nothing to prove to a bunch of strangers on the Internet. I welcome his side of the story. He says I am much worse about AO than he is. That is probably true. When he does have them, they are big ones.

I'm tired.

Dear Mr. Anointed,

Your wife's love busters are no excuse for yours. This is a way of deflecting attention from the problems that you are causing for her.

When you have an angry outburst, you are insane. It is a truly irrational response: a problem gets difficult, and you feel you can't handle it, so you go insane, which makes the problem worse.

Suppose the problem is that your wife is having angry outbursts. She is insane. Okay, then you going insane, too, will not help that at all. It will only make the problem worse.

If you have angry outbursts at all, please get help for them. Get help from a trained counselor who believes that angry outbursts can be ELIMINATED and knows which anger management techniques are effective and which are not.

Please take a listen to Dr. Harley's radio program in the archives. He talks about angry outbursts all the time. He had an anger problem himself, and he eliminated angry outbursts. He knows how to do it.

Here is a great example program from Dr. Harley explaining the basics of anger management:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=238

But really it is intensely effect to listen to him say it over and over, in different contexts.

The only person qualified in saying how bad an AO is is the victim of the AO.

Hi Anointed, I have only read this page so I might be missing something, but in regards to exposure, it is a good idea to tell both families. Dr Harley does recommend this regardless of the status of the affair. I am not sure why your husband would be resistant to this. Being upset about exposure is typically a sign of the FOG. I can understand why he would have been upset right after the affairs, but I am mystified about why he would be resistant NOW since he has repented for his affairs.

His affairs were the worst thing that ever happened to you. They almost destroyed your marriage. So telling your family gives you the support you need. The more people who know the more people to hold him accountable. That is a good thing, not a bad thing.

I found a couple of posts by Dr Harley, a clinical psychologist with 40 years specializing in infidelity and founder of Marriage Builders [hardly some "stranger on the internet"] that address this:

here

here

And then Dr Harley's newsletter about exposure: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2266646#Post2266646

It is definitely something that should be discussed and agreed upon between you, but his reluctance to do this is troubling to me, to be honest. Its not like he has something to be embarrassed about since he has repented. It would bring you relief and it would help others hold him accountable.

I could not agree more and have found little support for this amongst the counselors we have seen.

Most "counselors" don't specialize in infidelity, though. Dr Harley does. He is a credentialed, published clinical psychologist who is an expert in this field. Very few counselors have even a basic understanding of the dynamics of infidelity, much less how to recover from it. Keep in mind that the marriage counseling discipline has an 84% failure rate. They don't have any idea what they are doing.

Sounds like he found some people to tell him what he wants to hear.

Regardless of what any counselor has told him, this alone is a VERY good reason for him to come clean with your 2 families.


Would he be willing to call or write Dr. Harley himself, the BEST marriage counselor in the country who has saved thousands of marriages?

I'm wondering if all these years of "recovery" have been for nothing. He is focused on himself about exposure, and I don't understand why he won't humble himself. I feel so worthless.

I don't see why he wouldn't be willing to talk to dr Harley. He is usually pretty open to learning new things. I'm not sure, but I think he's scared I'm doing this out of spite to hurt him.

My whole life I have had the habit of setting the big things to the side that bother me because it is "easier". It is obviously to the contrary.

It would be wonderful if he would talk to Dr. Harley. Dr. Harley is not going to suggest to him that he do something for you out of spite or meanness.

But it wouldn't hurt him. That is just the thing. It is not spiteful or hurtful so he wouldn't think that unless he is still foggy. And he surely can't be foggy after all this time.

He read all of your posts tonight and couldn't disagree more...especially with you MelodyLane. I'm very discouraged.

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I told him when I tried to make excuses for my poor behavior on this forum, I was ripped to shreds. (*as well I should be, and I'm very grateful for that.)

Read through your thread and wasn't going to reply until I saw this, which piqued my interest. Ripped to shreds? The folks here have gone out of their way to word what they wrote in very soft terms so you wouldn't melt. Your whole thread is chock full of over the top hyperbole like this. Don't worry, ain't gonna rip you to shreds, or devastate you, or even be mean. What I am going to do, and probably fail at it, is to give you another guys point of view since EnlightenedEx didn't seem to make any headway.

First off, I'll say that your situation isn't hopeless yet, your husband is still talking to you even though he doesn't seem to have anything really contructive to say to you, and vice versa. I'll be honest when I say that I doubt very much that your husband has read this thread, if I was your husband, believe me I'd have a lot to say on this forum and he doesn't seem to be the shy type, right?

How I am a martyr

These are snippets taken from your posts that paint you as the long suffering spouse of an unworthy man.

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I cried so much last night realizing how much I'm going to have to die to myself to respond properly in the face of pain.

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guess what I'm trying to say is that I need to respond with grace even when the pain is unbearable.

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Not being a victim takes heart and a backbone

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Recently I got so discouraged with my husband's frustration with God, that I told him I was unable to shoulder the burden of carrying him in his walk with Christ any longer. It was a tough conversation, and I had an AO at the end. I'm pretty sure I was disrespectful too.

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I just want some acknowledgement for the pain I suffered! I even have a thread on here about it I think. I don't guess I need people to say "oh you poor thing" but I've been through HELL dang it! And I want to say I've survived!

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Last night I told him that even though we were both sad that I'd like to meet his need for SF.

How I am a victim/My attempts at making you feel sorry for me

I wish I had a dollar for every safe, hurt, and fear in your thread.

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I'm so discouraged and hurt.

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*sigh*

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I'm out here drowning

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and I'm sure it's just my pride getting in the way. I don't feel safe to express my feelings.

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And I just opened the oven door to find all my hard work was left in the oven overnight! What a day!

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Is that right? And now what? I get to have my feelings, right? My stomach hurts, and I have a lump in my throat like I've done something wrong.

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I've felt so hurt and unsure for many years as I've brought up this stuff before but didn't have the terminology to explain myself

.

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In the past the thought of being intimate while he's upset with me made me feel degraded. There has been a lot of fear.

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Okay. I've still been quite frightened but I'm willing to talk to him.

T

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Throughout our marriage I have felt extremely criticized for just about everything I did. I have been walking on eggshells all along and have not felt safe at all.

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I'm learning to do things I've never done before (out of fear),

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I understand that little things like this shouldn't mean the end of the world, but yet, here I am typing as tears roll down my face.

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Just the thought of pointing my finger directly at him like that scares the crap out of me. I've done it many times in the past, but now that I'm being vulnerable and don't have my weapons of retaliation I am terrified of saying this.

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Have you ever seen an armadillo curled up in a ball to protect itself? That's how I feel. I hope my armor is strong enough.

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I don't understand why he won't humble himself. I feel so worthless.

How I have an excuse for not doing what i am asking him to do

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He did come home from lunch today and say that his favorite team IS playing tonight, so he'd like to read during lunch. I told him that it's hard to concentrate when the two year old is awake (she's VERY loud!) Later on I did thank him for trying to make time for it.

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He says I contradict myself by doing the things I ask him not to do. I have always asked alllllll these years to please be careful how he words things. This is not enough direction, I see, and we are planning to focus on reading Lovebusters this week. (we have been overwhelmed with a family wedding)

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These last few weeks have been packed with activity, so I've not been doing anything productive regarding our marriage.

And my favorite, I guess Prisca got a little taste of how you relate when someone is telling you shoulda/woulda/coulda:

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This is good Prisca. I've never thought of AO that way. We were all eating dinner, and he was ranting in the kitchen. So, I should just get up and bring my 12, 10, and 2 year old where? They had to leave in about 10 minutes and needed to finish dinner! Just need some thinking outside the box for future reference since our schedule is so tight on most weekdays.

Discussion


You want to have unlimited texting but you don�t feel you have to carry the phone at all times, even though you agreed to take business calls. This is not a criticism of you, this is him asking why should he spend extra money for something that you don�t really need, especially since you have already acknowledged that you are short of funds and angry about it because you can�t be a SAHM. And everyone texting you isn't sharing your intimate feelings. But htis seems to be a common occurrence throughout your entire thread, and that is your husband doesn't have the right to disagree or argue any point at all with you. No matter what he says or does he is wrong. I really wonder just how effective the advice here is going to be given your inability to really listen to any contrary opinions and your refusal to even try out anything here. WAIT!! Hold that thought - I know, you've been busy.

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We have never seen a relationship like Dr Harley describes, and we are Christians who grew up in Christian homes!

I guess that being a Christian makes you feel like you are somewhat special and that your marriage should be different than everyone else's? I am not a Christian, wouldn't want to be one, and yet I don't have any of the contempt or scorn for my wife that the two of you display everyday for each other. Being Christian does not mean you are above the problems that everyone else has.

You want him to be your spiritual leader yet your entire thread is how you don�t like much of anything your husband has to say since you don�t agree with it anyway and how he�s not the boss of you anyway. How can he lead you anywhere when he can't even talk to you without you finding fault with what he said?

You see that except for the tag team of Markos/Prisca and EnlightenedEx, that no other guys have replied to your thread. Aren't you curious at to why that is? If your account is indeed accurate about how your husband talks to you, it leaves one wondering was he always this way or has it just gotten this bad over the years? I would have stopped talking to you a long time ago because it just doesn't register with you that you don't really care about anyone else's opinion except your own. I don't think that you are overly sensitive like you claim, I think that you give a lot better than you can get, you can dish it out like no tomorrow. All of the hyperbole and the fear and vulnerability and curled up armadillo stuff started after people started replying to you. At the beginning of your thread you began with how you both are guilty of AO's and admitted you did even more than your husband; then when folks started posting replies that were slanted towards you needing to have some give or take when dealing with your husband that the fear and oh woe is me stuff started appearing. And in the rare occasions that you had something remotely positive about your husband we see little examples that he does acknowledge that he is wrong and is willing to work with you. he apologizes for making you upset, is willing to read the materials you want, albeit at lunch and not during the game, and even years after the affair is STILL taking your feelings into acount by mainatining EPs like telling you about business meetings. That business meeting by the way, was with men and women, and was a working lunch that he had told you about. Don't understand why it would be something that he couldn't attend.

In closing I would like to ask you, why do you want to stay married to your husband? You don't like him very much, don't really have anything to say about any good qualities he may have, you don't value his opinion on any subject, in fact, just the opposite, and you don't really want to be intimate with him at all, and yes, that includes sex. If I were to take your thread at face value, I would think that it was a deposition for a divorce case. Again, I will throw in this disclaimer that i am a guy, and I am going to not only observe things differently, but also interpret and discuss things differently than the ladies here. But since you are wanting to know how things could be different with your husband, how your marriage could change, perhaps you ought to reserve your comments back to me until you really take the time to read, really read, what I wrote here and then ask yourself is this REALLY how I am being perceived? because that is key, you may think you are projecting yourself one way when someone else sees you in an entirely different light. You do that and come on back to talk.

BTW, just in case your husband IS actually reading this, why don't you start your own thread there MrAnointed? Unless of course you can't take people being brutally honest with you and not afraid to call BS when they see it. You have a 50% stake in this mess and have work to do also.

Mr.Anointed,
Instead of reading what we say and getting angry with your wife over it, why don't you create your own account and we can have an honest discussion about the issue.

Even better, why don't you call Dr. Harley and talk to him about it? He's a trained physiologist with years of experience, the best marriage counselor in the country (having saved thousands of marriages from the brink of destruction), and he's not going to tell you to do something just out of spite or to be mean to you. Probably the best neutral 3rd party you can get.

Your wife's not happy, sir. I'm betting neither are you.

That can change.
Would you like it to?

She's drowning.
Would you like to be her hero?

americanjin,

Thanks for posting. I appreciate your time very much. I am open to what you are saying. I can see how I could be perceived as not caring about his point of view. I guess if I look hard at it, that would be true because I've been mostly concerned about how I feel when he talks to me.

I do think I have a victim mindset, and I'm working hard to find a better way of thinking. There is pain when there shouldn't be, I think.


No doubt. I can dish it. When I started learning to put the weapons down, I was left feeling incredibly vulnerable, and my feelings flooded to the surface. It was easier to be angry before rather than feel the pain. Lots of stuff has been coming up...past sexual abuse and trying to learn proper boundaries.

If I stand outside myself I can see all the whoa is me stuff. I want to be stronger than that.


I understand. Sure, he has these meetings quite a bit and usually there's no problem with them. I was triggered that day and was trying to be open and honest. It may have sounded like I was demanding he not go, but I really just wanted some affirmation and comfort for my trigger. I know I have a lot to work on.

I do welcome your input as I do Enlightened_Ex. I thought that I had taken his advice seriously, but I guess you don't see it that way. I am taking what you are saying seriously as well.

Why do I want to stay married to my husband?

I love him.
He's super smart and funny.
He is handsome and caring and is a great father to our kids.
He's involved in our community and likes to help other people.
He's a leader and can accomplish anything he sets his mind to.
He's helpful around the house and with the kids.
He's orderly and clean and thoughtful.

I could go on but I understand your point. He needs to hear the positive things just like I do. There have been times I've wanted to run away from the marriage because it has seemed like such a struggle for the both of us, but I know that is cowardly.

I realize that I have a lot of work to do on myself.

Please keep posting.

Enlightened_Ex, did you stop posting to me because you feel like I'm a lost cause, too? I'm trying.

Thanks Prisca.

I'm scheduled to be on the show next Friday. I asked MrAnointed to be on the call with me but he doesn't feel that is very private. I suggested we use different names. He didn't answer. Either way, I'll be on the call.

Have you said this to him? I recommend it. It's a statement that is 100% about you and zero about him. I realize he says things that hurt your feelings, and I don't want to minimize that. But I suggest when talking to him, you make it about YOU: My fear that I'm not good enough for you weighs on me like a ton of bricks. My fear makes me lash out at you. I'm sorry about that. I'm trying to work on my fear so that I don't lash out at you, but I hope you understand that when I lash out, it's my fear talking, and not my true self.

I do not recommend this. "I'm not good enough for you," is a DJ, even if preceded by "I feel that ..."

Anointed, I recommend that you do not engage in any relationship talk at all until you have spoken to Dr. Harley on Friday.

I don't think that would be a very attractive thing for a wife to say to her husband. The stuff about "fear" sounds like rationalizing, to me. The last thing a person needs to do about their love busters is be defensive and rationalizing. That last sentence sounds like it's saying "You shouldn't feel bad when I love bust you. You see, it's not that I don't like you. I actually love bust you because I like you and am afraid to lose you! Oh, and I'm not really responsible for my actions!"

Furthermore, I just don't think that a betrayed spouse should be telling the formerly wayward spouse they think they are not good enough for them.

Finally, all of us coming from troubled marriages have spouses who can legitimately make complaints. The complaints may seem endless, but the truth is that for most people the complaints really are finite. Address the complaints, one by one, with CHANGE, and they really will go away and we will then be "good enough." Saying you can't be good enough really is a DJ, because you are saying that the other person can't be satisfied.

Prisca, I read in your email to not engage in ANY relationship talk and completely disregarded that advice today. What was I thinking? I am so used to just sharing how I feel. So dumb.

Today he came home for lunch, and everything was very light and positive. He typically comes home and reads his emails/listens to talk radio while he eats. Today he came home and engaged me in a political conversation but when he said what he wanted to say, he started reading his emails as soon as I started to respond. We have a history of him not giving me his full attention when I talk (whether it's to chat with our 2 year old, watch TV, or read emails). I have told him this bothers me.

Today I said, "Really? You engage me in a conversation about this, and when I start to reply you read your emails?" I told him that I felt it was rude and would appreciate his full attention and in response he glances down and reads more emails. I was furious!

We had a very difficult conversation the other night where I let him know that I was done. Then I thought better of it since I know that is not what God wants, and I know it would devastate the kids.

I wondered how he could be so flippant at my request for undivided attention when we are so rocky right now? He seemed to disregard me completely.

It's time to read books and work through the workbook..even if he won't do it with me.

I'm just not sure how to be in the marriage when my needs are so blatantly ignored...this is just one issue of many.

I know this was full of DJs. I can't know how he really feels about any of this. His actions have not been meeting my needs.

Oh, and markos...thanks so much. I really appreciate your insight. Of course it isn't attractive for me to feel this way. I have so much work to do on myself, and I'm going to have to learn how to do it. At first, I thought I'd have to be alone so I could "fix" myself, but really I need to learn how to interact with people properly even when I don't want to.

Oh, and we talked about splitting up again today which was devastating. To us both I'm sure.

And I don't want to split up. I want us both to be happy. I told him I was willing to do WHATEVER it takes to learn how to make him feel heard...so he could have an opinion. He said that my AO today was so hypocritical and I agree.

I am so upset with myself. At the end I was being calm but assertive, and he said that at this point he didn't really care what I needed.

I guess all of this is fear-based...being worried that what I want will never matter. And that causes me to act like a fool. It is time to be in control of my emotions. It is time to be logical, and fair to my husband.

He asked if we could play by the same rules since he has never threatened to leave me? He basically said to give him 2 days and he'd be gone and most likely have me out of the house as well. He was very angry and cursed at me and told me how cruel he can be. It startled me, and that is when I got calm and assertive. I know that I shouldn't use the idea of splitting up as an answer..he thinks I use it as a threat. I meant it. I had a plan, but it is not right. If I can make this marriage right, I want to. But he needs to take me seriously as well.

This is very encouraging to me. Man! How many thoughts in my life are fear based? This is an eye opener...It doesn't feel good, but I'm glad to be opening my eyes.

Dr. Harley never recommends threatening to leave. If you come to a point that you do need to leave, he says to just leave. But, in the meantime, stop the threats.

Stop talking about quitting. Talking about it is only making things worse right now. Threats will not make him take you seriously. You can let him know that you want your needs to be met without threats.

Don't engage in any more relationship talk until you have talked to Dr. Harley on Friday. Put it on hold. Hold the bandage on the wound to slow the bleeding until the Doctor tells you what course of action to take.

He may tell you to leave. He may give you a plan to help you get your husband on board with MB. Wait till then, and see what he says.

Do I Plan A?

Essentially.
Avoid lovebusters AT ALL COST.
Meet his EN as best as possible and as much as he will let you.
Avoid Relationship talk.

You can make it 5 more days.

Got it. Thanks.

You're gonna make it, Anointed. Keep plugging in here for support.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042b_qa.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042c_qa.html

Read through these. Lots to work on.

Let's be real here... I can barely function right now. I know I should be making dinner but all I want to do is crawl into a corner and cry my eyes out. I'm so sad that we are in this place. I always thought that we'd be together, and I thought I could sacrifice anything for him. But I just can't anymore. And it hurts so badly! I want to be happy, too, and it sucks trying to make these stupid, disgusting old habits die!

Get take out. Or frozen pizza. Go easy on yourself.

This is not going to last forever. Either he will start meeting your needs and protecting you, or you will be gone. Either way, you will be free of the pain. Dr. Harley will help you decide which direction to go in -- if anybody can bring your husband on board, it's him.

I just wanted to pop in to say that sacrifice is not a Marriage Builders principle.

I just heard Dr. Harley on an old radio program telling a betrayed husband that you don't offer up something to bring your spouse back to the marriage that will make life miserable for you. In other words, you don't sacrifice.

Thanks markos. Last night he came home and sincerely apologized for what he said. I did too. He said he was speaking out of fear and abandonment and he'd never want to treat me that way no matter what happens.

He helped with laundry and was affectionate. H made a couple of demands he probably wasn't aware of and he continued to read while I spoke to him last night. He got aggravated when I asked him to look at me, but I refrained from all relationship talk.

We cuddled in bed and he prayed for us last night. I'm looking forward to the day when we are working together as a team.

Glad to hear the evening went better

As far as his demands, keep in mind that you didn't know of yours that long ago. Ignorance doesn't excuse him, but do give him a little grace until he comes on board with the program. When he does, you will be able to use the forms to discuss them together.

Keep meeting his needs for now. He needs to see that there's something in this program for HIM.

Good job

I don't think you HAVE a victim mindset, Anointed. I think you use this like a trump card whenever someone mentions something that you don't like or agree with, just as you don't like suggestions because you don't like anyone telling you what to do. This is a negotiating tactic with you, kind of like a marital filibuster. When a conversation about a mutual problem or decision doesn't go the way you like, you obfuscate the issue by crying or starting the "woe is me" or "you're hurting my feelings" stuff. Your husband is too close to see it, but people on the outside see it for what it is, especially guys. You're going to have problems with this program because there are going to be lots of people telling you what to do. I would imagine you'll be saying a lot of yes, buts.... until you get some sort of lightbulb moment when you understand that unless something changes within BOTH of you, you're on the express train to divorce.

One of your hubsand's biggest problem is that he doesn't know how to listen, and he hasn't learned yet that a lot of women don't WANT you to fix something all of the time, just simply listen. For men, that is often counterintuitive. The way a man's mind works is that if you tell a guy of a problem, you're asking for a solution; if you're not looking for a fix, then why bring it up?! To us, that's just whining. Takes a while for men to accept that women are just different, some men, like your hubsnad, just never seem to learn. The other thing with your husband is his tendency to engage in "I told you so" behaviors. he knows you'll get pissed if he "suggests" something, but he just can't stop himself, because later he gets some sense of satisfaction when you go against his advice and make a mistake.

The POJA would take care of both these behaviors. To do the POJA you need to have good communication skills, both talking and listening, not dictation skills. Anyone can tell someone what to do, that's easy, really communicating with empathy and compassion, that's hard. But until you can accept that you're not going to get your way everytime, and your husband accept that sometimes discretion is the better part of valor and learn to put a cork in it, you'll get absolutely nowhere. your POJA attempt will be more gridlocked than Congress in a budget meeting.

Thanks americajin. I see what you are saying. I don't believe that I have been pulling the victim card in manipulation. I have truly felt victimized, even when I shouldn't. I have been going to therapy for childhood sexual abuse, and I am shocked at how much that affected my way of thinking about myself. It doesn't change how much my behavior has hurt my husband, but it has helped me recognize things as they are so I can actually do something about it.

I have gone thru life kinda like Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde...alternating between confidence and complete withdrawal. I am dealing with an old way of thinking and healing the wounds. Just yesterday I was able to have a fairly difficult conversation with my MIL and walked away unruffled and unashamed.....VERY new for me. I was not easily offended and I didn't obsess about how our opinions differed. I was actually somewhat at home in my body and did not feel as much anxiety as usual. When I shared this with my husband, he laughed gently and said "welcome to adulthood.". I laughed and said "thank you.". It really did feel good.

For lurkers with childhood sexual abuse in your past, if you have not dealt with it, it is imperative that you do so. I've learned that part of my emotions have not developed past that 4 year old mindset. The world falls apart easily (think emotional tantrum) and my self worth has been so low that any sign of criticism (even a legitimate complaint) would speak to just how worthless I am (was). I would overreact because I desperately wanted all of that NOT to be true...do I matter? Am I just one big screwup? The criticism in my head has been off the charts.

If you have this kind of abuse in your past, PLEASE seek out intensive therapy with someone who deals solely with childhood sexual abuse. Church counseling has never cut it. These guys are secular, and they are making major strides with me. I feel much stronger.

Do it.

Anyway, I guess this is mostly just an update. None of this is an excuse. I'm just glad to know I can do something about all these messes I'm in.

Radio show in the morning...

Listened to the show just now. Here's the links to your show:

Segment A
Segment B

So, Dr. Harley said that exposure right now is good for you because it will:

1. Make you feel better
2. Help your children guard against it happening to them
3. Give accountability -- it is important to confess to family so they can hold you accountable.
4. Give Just Compensation -- exposing himself to family will communicate to you his understanding of how deeply he hurt you.

I think you've already read through the article Dr. Harley talked about -- Can't We Just Forgive and Forget? Might want to read them again.

Dr. Harley basically said that you shouldn't just forgive and forget. Forgiveness means you treat the other person as if it has never happened -- you can't do that with infidelity. Pretending it never happened is not a good idea. Instead, your husband should give you just compensation, because he can't DO anything to gain forgiveness.

He needs to recognize that what he did to you is the worst thing he could have ever done. He could not have beat you senseless and it be worse than the affair. Going to the family and apologizing will communicate to you the depth of his understanding of what he did.

What are you thinking, Anointed?

What am I thinking? I'm glad that I was validated with the call. I don't believe MrAnointed has listened to the call, and I haven't brought it up. We celebrated our Christmas early this weekend, and I didn't want to rock the boat.

We did have a very enjoyable time, and I guess now is the time to bring it up. I'm not looking forward to it.

Just compensation. That is the key I believe.

Yes it is. He hasn't given it to you, yet.

He listened to the radio show last night and nothing has changed. He believes Dr. Harley knows what he is doing, but he doesn't agree on this subject.

Lots of DJ's and AO's flying last night.

He did tell me that it would just kill him to tell his family because he didn't want to hurt them unnecessarily.

I told him it's too late, that he already hurt them by what he did. He disagrees. He feels like if he tells the family that it will just be the beginning of me wanting to tell everyone.

I do want the freedom to share my past whenever I see fit, but I have these 8.5 years kept him in mind, and I can continue to do that if he consents to transparency.

What is so agrivating is that we both feel called to marriage ministry...the kind that would require total transparancy and sharing of our experiences with large groups. He even reminded me of this last night, so where is the disconnect?

I think he will be devastated in telling his family, and just doesn't want to do it. I'm not a factor in the equation at all right now.

I did initiate SF last night even after all the crap hit the fan, but this morning he was distant again.

We are leaving this morning for Christmas vacation, and I am pretty bummed.

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He did tell me that it would just kill him to tell his family because he didn't want to hurt them unnecessarily.

I love it when people say this - how is it going to hurt them? What it will hurt is their opinion of him.

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What is so agrivating is that we both feel called to marriage ministry...the kind that would require total transparancy and sharing of our experiences with large groups. He even reminded me of this last night, so where is the disconnect?

I agree, doesn't make much sense, does it? I would also think that before you would try to help others with issues you should work your own out first.

Thanks americajin.

Not a whole lot has changed in respect to exposing to family. We had a pretty angry discussion right before we left for Christmas with family, and he was mad because he thought I was trying to make him expose during Christmas break. I told him I was trying to do no such thing. I just needed him to see how important it is for my healing. He was surprised that I was not demanding this of him (most likely due to past behavior). I have not mentioned it again since that discussion. I cannot force him to be enthusiastic about this, and I will pray and ask God to do a work in his heart.

As far as the health of the rest of the marriage, I would say it is going better. We are watching LoveBusters, and I noticed lately that we are being much more considerate of each other.

Examples: I checked to see if my husband was finished watching TV before grabbing the remote to change it. There have been times when he's been on his laptop and not seeming to pay attention to the TV that I've just changed the channel without asking (or if I did, it was out of reluctance)

He asked if it was okay to change the screen on the ipad that we were looking at together.

We were cleaning out the garage, and I looked for his enthusiastic agreement before getting rid of things. In the past I have "requested" (demanded) he get rid of things that were in my way. If they were rarely used, I made the decision to get rid of things, and he had better be on board!

I know these things seem small, but they are actually HUGE changes for us. I have not continued to read LoveBusters as planned, and I am feeling completely overwhelmed with my schedule. I know I must make time for things that are important for me, so I'm working on it.

I have asked MrAnointed to sit down with me and work out a plan for 15 hrs UA including SF, but it has not happened yet. We are each waiting for the other to initiate this "meeting"... our stubborness is creeping up. I know that it will benefit the marriage no matter who initiates, but it would make me feel really special if he would take the initiative to do this.

We started working out together again last night, so that will add about 7.5 hrs UA each week. SF has become a little more frequent, but I think scheduling SF would obviously increase that time.

I'm feeling more hopeful. Thank you all for your support.

Why would you need enthusiastic agreement for exposure?

CWMI, Don't you think the 8 (almost 9) years passage of time requires a different approach? I've been a pushover about this, yes. But I didn't know about MB at the time. Now I do. Now I know it is what I need.

But my husband is unwilling. I don't know what to do about that.

Anointed,

I think you're on the right track of thinking. Exposure in this case is NOT to kill an active affair, but to give you just compensation. It wouldn't really give you what you need if you force your husband out into the open.

I believe the right course of action for you would be to continue with the MB program -- eliminate lovebusters, meet EN, and get at least 15 hours UA time in each week.

When you and your husband are in love again, his unwillingness to talk to other people about his affair will most likely change to willingness.

Stop being stubborn and initiate it In fact, plan a set time each week to go over the next week's schedule together -- then nobody has to wait on anybody to initiate anything. Go to the meeting with a list of suggestions.

UA is key. You gotta get this done.

UA is still a problem. He's not sure 15 hrs a week is doable, and I'm not sure I totally disagree. Our children are busy bees, but we've GOT to figure out a way to work the time in.

Here is an update:

I've done some more reading on my own. DH is not too keen on how much reading I do on this site. We had a really tough week 2 weeks ago, and then SF picked up...what do you know??? Everything got better! DH was so in tune with my emotions and very loving and kind.

Last week was so nice.

This week was my last week working (LOOONG battle there), and we are off again. I have stopped taking my birth control which causes very long menstrual periods...drastically affecting our SF. We decided to stop taking birth control so we could try to have another baby.

Now I'm not so sure.

I know UA really is the key, and SF ALWAYS makes him feel so much better in our relationship which in turn makes me feel secure.

The problem is, other ways of meeting his need for SF leave me feeling very alone and unimportant. I'm in counseling now for early childhood sexual abuse, so I'm working to heal in that area. For now, I feel very much alone when we do anything other than intercourse. Even if he is the one giving oral. I don't like being alone. I like to have him with me face to face. He got very upset with me today when I told him this. He really does not like having intercourse while I'm having my period.

That is one major issue we are having. See next post for an even bigger one:

The other night DH was talking politics with me and the kids in the kitchen. He gets very passionate, and he sounds kinda hateful. I get worried about what he is teaching the kids, so I will chime in about my thoughts on the subject.

He makes general statements about certain races and geographic locations, and I add that not everyone in that group believes the same way and we should love everyone...even if we disagree with them.

He got pretty upset with me and said, "Let me tell you simple-minded people how this works..." I was shocked! He was talking to me and the kids! I told him that calling names was unacceptable, and it excalated from there.

We started to talk more that night, and it ended with me walking out when he was belaboring a point rather than discussing the issue at hand: name calling.

Yesterday we were fine at lunch, but after my counseling session I realized just how upset and insecure I was feeling in the relationship. Am I less important than the need to make a point? I waited til after midnight to talk with him last night, but he was still working. I made the mistake of basically demanding we talk when he was busy, but then I walked out when I saw it was going nowhere.

Today we talked about it at lunch, and it still didn't go well. He won't outright say that it is wrong to call names, and he even tried to explain how it is a choice if I let someone calling me names hurt my feelings.

I finally let him know that there are 3 types of abuse that cannot be tolerated in a relationship: sexual, physical, and verbal abuse. I told him I had the responsibility to protect myself and our 3 children from someone who feels that name calling is appropriate at times. He then said that he never said that calling names is ok.

It takes me DAYS to get this man to admit something straight up without all the circles. He then asked if I thought it was so bad that I felt like I needed to take me and the kids out of this house? Then he just walked out.

I don't think it is bad, but I think it could get bad if he won't ADMIT and COMMIT to making sure this never happens. It has been kinda bad in the past, and I know his heart is not to hurt any of us.

He says I blow things out of perportion. I'm still learning how to set healthy boundaries for myself, so I'm asking for your input.

15 hours UA is doable. Couples with more children than you do it all the time.

Here's a thought: Children need parents who are in love. Children need parents who have a strong, healthy marriage. Give your children the best foundation in life by taking the time to build a marriage with your husband. Your marriage must come first. In the end, it won't matter how many activities they are involved in. What will matter the most in their lives is whether or not their parents had a good, romantic marriage.

Get your UA in. Make it a priority. Nothing else will work without it.

Expect it to be a roller coaster for awhile.
The two of you will need to negotiate a way to have SF that is enjoyable for both of you. If he doesn't like something, don't do it. Vice versa. Don't allow yourself to gain at each other's expense. That may mean no sex during your period. Or there may be a variety of other options.

Check out Vitex for your heavy, painful periods. That is not an uncommon problem for women coming off of birth control, and there are a variety of herbal supplements that can help.

As for the politics and name calling ... If you don't enjoy talking to him about politics, don't talk about politics. Find a subject you both can enjoy. If he really, really wants to talk politics, then he will need to find a way to do it that you enjoy. Otherwise, just don't discuss it.


Be careful telling your husband he "should" do anything. This is a DJ (even if it's true). You are telling him what he has to think. You are telling him that his thoughts are invalid and wrong. You are telling him that you are smarter than him. You are educating him. And most people cannot handle their spouse educating them. It is a lovebuster.

Next time, do not confront him about the name calling to his face in the heat of the moment. Write it down, and discuss it with him later when things are calmer. If you are very upset, leave. Take the kids with you if you want. But any confrontation in the heat of the moment will only lead to defensiveness on his part, and escalation.

He will be more likely to listen later, when things are calm and he doesn't feel the need to defend himself.

When you bring it up later, be respectful.


Why is it "belaboring" when he wants to talk about a point, and "discussing" when you want to talk about a point?
These discussions MUST take place when both of you are calm, with no DJs or Demands. Read up on the friends and enemies of good conversation. Read up on complaints vs. criticism.

If you don't feel that you can discuss something without lovebusters, put it off. He doesn't deserve to be lovebusted just because he lovebusted you. Two evils do not make a right.

Thanks, Prisca.

This is why I value this forum so much.

"As for the politics and name calling ... If you don't enjoy talking to him about politics, don't talk about politics. Find a subject you both can enjoy. If he really, really wants to talk politics, then he will need to find a way to do it that you enjoy. Otherwise, just don't discuss it. "

What do I do if he is talking about these things in front of the children? I don't like the attitude he is teaching them, and of course he wants to be free to express his own opinion.

I did mention I don't enjoy talking politics with him. I also asked him that if I was on the opposite political end of the spectrum than him, would he still love me? He didn't answer outright but did say it would be hard for him to connect with me.

"Be careful telling your husband he "should" do anything. This is a DJ (even if it's true). You are telling him what he has to think. You are telling him that his thoughts are invalid and wrong. You are telling him that you are smarter than him. You are educating him. And most people cannot handle their spouse educating them. It is a lovebuster. "

This is so right. I HATE it when he does this to me. This is another example of me not following the same rules--as he puts it.

"Next time, do not confront him about the name calling to his face in the heat of the moment. Write it down, and discuss it with him later when things are calmer. If you are very upset, leave. Take the kids with you if you want. But any confrontation in the heat of the moment will only lead to defensiveness on his part, and escalation. "

This is my problem. The fact that he will not commit to changing the name calling behavior makes me worried he will continue. Is this not verbal abuse? Like I'm saying, I'm learning about proper boundaries. I've read lots of horror stories about how these things progress, and I've watched some pretty ugly behavior from my FIL towards my MIL that really worries me. I do not want that to be us in 20 years.

Should I make a firm stand? Should I protect my children? And me? He doesn't agree that it is right, but he will not commit to changing it. He feels I am demanding he change it. I am. Aren't I supposed to when it comes to abuse?

"Why is it "belaboring" when he wants to talk about a point, and "discussing" when you want to talk about a point?"

And yes, I did this too. He was so frustrated with me, and I can see why.

I have been such a pushover...am I too extreme on the other end of the spectrum now? I just want to do what is right for me and the kids.

We learned not to call names in Kindergarten. I don't understand why this is even a discussion.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8110_cod.html

This may be the root of my problem... I am trying to get healthy, and I am getting conflicting messages.

Is it as simple as you don't agree on what constitutes "name calling?"

The example that comes to mind is the "N" word. My step-grandfather used it, and the context he used it in wasn't derogatory. It's what folks of his generation learned to call folks of a certain color. It didn't mean anything good or bad to him.

To others, it was calling names.

Attempts to educate him on how some may take that as offensive didn't go far. Why? Because he was not "calling names." He was using the term used by millions of his generation to refer to a group of people.

Sometimes I wonder who was more gracious, those who may not have used the right words, but treated everyone with respect, or those who always used the right words, but didn't always show respect.

I never heard him speak ill of any one, any group, or any social or political group.

His language certainly was not polished, and the PC Police would frown at his speech. But there were few who were more gracious and respectful than him.

The question is, what are his intentions first, and can you guide him to choose other words? Can you offer grace if he's unwilling or unable to choose the words you think he should use?

Are you willing to hold yourself to the standard you expect him to follow? Do you tell him that he is right, that you find yourself doing the same things you don't like him doing.

Do you thank him for keeping you honest in this?

Maybe start there. When he catches you in a double standard, thank him for pointing it out. Not a sarcastic thanks, but a real, thanks I didn't see that until you showed me, I appreciate it thanks. With an apology too. Something like, "I'm sorry for doing that. I know I've called you on it, so it must be hard for you to experience me doing the very same things I complain about in you. Please accept my apology as it is hurtful and wrong for me to behave in that fashion.

Thanks Enlightened_Ex. He loves people but is very very blunt. Yes, I can offer him grace.

What about our children? What if I'm concerned about what he is teaching them?

I tell him he is right but not as humbly as you put it. I will put more effort in giving him more of what I expect...giving him EVERYTHING I expect from him.

Playing by two sets of rules is not fair.

Thanks for stopping by.

I would put an end to racial slurs, no matter how anyone was raised. Any intelligent person can speak of their disdain with others without ever attacking something that the other person can do nothing about, like race.

I would have treated EE's step-grandpa the same way I treat my FIL: with much distance, and a sharp crack for ignorance in the presence of my children.

My husband has made some racist remarks in my presence, and I told him it made him appear ignorant to me. That has been enough. Learning stupid stuff is no reason to keep believing it.

I feel very strongly about it, too. He is not racist, but he does not guard his speech in that area. If it didn't involve my children it would be a different story.

So things are still bad.

I talked with DH again about the name calling, and he finally agreed that he would commit to not calling his family names. But he did say that if someone cuts him off in traffic, he is free to say whatever he wants to the "idiot" who put his family in danger.

He feels I am demanding that he not call names. This is true. I cannot control what he says about other peope, although it is a LB for me when he has AO about others, but it has been imperative that I feel the children and I are safe from being called names.

I was really hurt that it took him 3 days to agree to this. He asked if I felt like he didn't protect the family. I said not with his words. I told him I was really hurt it took so long for him to agree to protect us, and I started to cry.

I told him his words have done some of the worst damage in our relationship, and he said that he felt the same way about me but I don't see him crying about it.

I said, well excuse me for crying! And he walked out.

We are just going round and round. My heart hurts.

Can you try brainstorming ways to meet his SF without you being alone?
How can you be face to face and still meet (perhaps manually) his needs?
Approach it not as "I don't like this and that" but "I want to meet your need for SF and how can we both be happy?"

Maybe don't approach it as a demand "Don't call people names!" but as a thoughtful request using "I statements"...such as
"I felt so disrespected when you said 'Let me tell you simple-minded people...' "
How can you tell us your thoughts on something without making us feel so bad? Remember, we may not have as much background as you in an area, we may not care as much as you about an area, and we might have different opinions about something. And all of that is okay. We want to hear your opinion, not have it forced upon us.

That being said when my DH says something in a disrespectful way I just walk away. He apologizes fairly quickly, but hopefully he will just learn not to do it in the first place!

Thanks wannabophim. I really appreciate your input.

Yes, I will try to use POJA on meeting his need for SF in a mutually satisfying way. We have gone round and round about this for so many years, and I get discouraged that we have made little improvement. I will keep trying.

I understand what you mean about the thoughtful request. I did make a demand in my response to him, which is not what I would want if it were me.

Over the weekend I did discuss my willingness to separate from DH if he would not stop calling his family names in his anger.

It was a tough time. I wasn't feeling angry at all. Just hurt and desperately trying to do the right thing for myself and the children.

You see, I have spent so many years not taking care of myself or having good boundaries, and now I am getting healthy. Now I have relied on healthy resources (i.e. MB, my therapist, and church pastors) to decide what cannot be tolerated in a marriage. The last thing I want is to be separated from my husband. There have been so many confusing messages coming my way, but I have decided I will do what is right now matter what. I will not fall apart. I can stand and say "no" when it is destructive to myself or my children.

My DH and I did decide to work on the marriage, and I agreed to this after he stated that he is committed to elimating destructive behaviors. And I also am extremely committed to doing so. I have much to work on myself.

So our plan now is to continue with the marriage class at our church each week and read books every night after we work out together. I read to him, and I take notes for myself to keep the bottom-lines in mind.

Last night we read through Ch. 3 in Lovebusters about Selfish Demands. Tonight I believe the plan is to read about Disrepectful Judgements.

I will be a stronger person, and I will be a better wife and mother, no matter the circumstances.

You cannot demand that your spouse do anything if you want a recovered marriage. As you've seen, demands do not work. He will feel the need to defend himself, and will be closed to listening to your complaint.

You must be respectful and non-demanding in how you approach him with your complaint. Instead of "You must stop calling people in traffic names or I'm leaving you for good" try "It hurts me when you yell at the guy who cut you off." Just leave it at that. You haven't DJ'd him, or demanded he stop. You've just let him know that what he has done hurts you. If he pushes for more, or tries to argue, don't engage. Simply repeat "It hurts me," or "I felt disrespected."

The reason it took so long to agree to do it is because you have been demanding and disrespectful yourself. The natural thing to do when you are being lovebusted with DJs and demands is to protect yourself first. Congratulations -- he's human after all Give him a little grace.

Now you've hit a nerve with me
I don't cry much either -- markos is the one who typically shows more emotion about such things. But I tell you, when he DJs me, or worse yet, has an AO, it cuts me to the core. Even though I don't cry.

He doesn't have to cry to feel like he's dying inside.

Your demands, DJs and AOs hurt him just as bad as his hurt you.

That was very disrespectful. And probably cut him very deeply.


So does his.

This is also very disrespectful. Is he no more mature than a 5 year old child? Ouch.

You will not get what you need (protection and care) by browbeating him to do it.

This is very good.
Are you going to create plans together to eliminate these lovebusters?
What are your plans concerning UA time?

Recently, Markos and I were listening to one of Dr. Harley's old radio shows. In it, he made the statement: "don't become angry or disrespectful if your spouse breaks the rules."

We both agreed that we wished someone had told us that early on
Your husband must follow the rule to not DJ you.
He will probably slip up. It's not an easy habit to break.
Just because he slips up doesn't give you a go to become angry or disrespectful yourself.

Never respond to a lovebuster with a lovebuster. Two wrongs never make a right.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8110_cod.html

How is this a red flag for codependency?

I see this as a renter mindset, she sacrificed herself. The solution here is to POJA with her husband on options for her to regain herself. They shouldn't be sacrificing.

Also, if her husband is still engaging in lovebusters, then restating her boundaries over and over again will help her demonstrate to her husband what it will take to protect her. It can be very exhausting for a woman to battle lovebusters from her husband.

Anointed I suggest continuing to state your boundaries to your husband. His changes to respect your boundaries should change immediately if he is serious about working on your marriage.

Thanks Prisca. As you can see, we both slipped back into old habits.

The reason I was demanding about calling his family names was because I thought I was supposed to demand it. I actually wasn't referring to calling other people names in the demand...just our family because I was told this is verbal abuse...not to be tolerated right???

Everything else we could use POJA for, right?

I thought it was the same as if my husband had hit me or the kids. I would have to leave if he didn't have a plan and commitment to protect us, right??

Remember, I am in counseling for sexual abuse, and everything is very fresh...on the surface. I am desperately trying to do what is healthy.

That is why I was confused and trying to put my foot down without regard for MB. I was hearing I needed to draw this boundary in a firm way thru several trusted resources.

You don't tolerate sexual, physical, or verbal abuse, right??


And yes I was disrespectful and demanding, and it did not get the outcome I wanted or needed.

Thanks Prisca,

Yes we are reading 1 chapter of Lovebusters each night, and we agree to work on them.

We are spending about 2 hrs or more a night together by working out and then reading Lovebusters and chatting. The weekends are sporadic but we do get time together...I'm guessing we are close to the 14-15 hr range. I'd feel better if we scheduled the time specifically on our calendar, but I'm ok with status quo for now.

We are going to write down when our spouse commits a LB and discuss it later.

This is funny HHH because I posted the same thing.


I cannot get a straight answer. Name calling on a regular basis is not to be tolerated, though, right?

My husband does not call names often, but I was scared since he would not commit to stop doing it. He was hesitant to agree because I was demanding. I was demanding because I thought that made me healthy.

Thanks HHH.

Thanks PrayIncessantly.

I have been absolutely exhausted from battling LB from DH, and I know he is tired too.

We both want the same thing.

Here is part of what he wrote on the valentines card he gave me:
I believe that you and I together can not only change [lack of money] but change the habits and attitudes of our family for generations. I believe in us!

I cannot express how much that encourages me.

Thank you so much for seeing things from my DH's perspective. I really appreciate it.

Remember Anointed your sexual abuse issue will shape your emotional needs only ... it has no bearing on your current actions.

What are you needing from your husband to feel loved, cared for and protected? Once he can nail those specific EN's then your abuse as a child will have no room in your life. It probably feels like it is affecting you today because you husband isn't meeting your EN's the way you need them met, and his lovebusters are also causing some resentment.

That is why Dr. Harley doesn't want you to go back and live that nightmare over again. He knows the only way to move past the trauma is to live a great life today.

Hone on your EN's and really try to determine how he can meet them for you.

Tough~

That is soooo good! Thank you.

I will do that.

No, verbal abuse should not be tolerated.
But that doesn't give you a right to be abusive in return.
The answer is NOT to become abusive yourself.
You can draw the line without being demanding or disrespectful, or having your own AOs.
The forms are very helpful in doing this.

When you start demanding that he protect you, he will naturally want to defend himself.

The forms take away the demand aspect of your complaint. When you fill out the form, with just the facts, it is easier to avoid making your own DJs and Demands:
"Date: 02/14/2012
Lovebuster: DJ - called me "____"

You are simply informing him what he did, and respectfully letting him know that it causes pain and is unacceptable to you. There is no need to beat him over the head with it, or cause him pain in return. There is no need to demand that he change -- he now knows that when he calls you "_____" it is hurtful. And if he wants to protect you, he will take steps to not do it again.

Demanding that he change will get you nowhere. Telling him that what he does causes pain, and working together to create a plan to change WILL get you where you want to go.

Dr. Harley does advise women to leave when their husband is physically abusive. He also doesn't expect a woman to stay if her husband flat out refuses to protect her from the other lovebusters.

Your husband is not physically abusive, is he?

Dr. Harley also says to never threaten to leave. If it comes to the point that you need to get out, then leave. But don't threaten to do it.

You are right that he shouldn't be verbally abusive. You are not going to convince him that you are right by being demanding and disrespectful in return. You are being just as verbally abusive as he is when you do it. He needs protection from you, too.

But he has agreed to do the program now, right? Give him some grace for being reluctant (there's almost always a reluctant spouse when it comes to marital recovery) and move forward with the program.

What is your plan for overcoming demands, DJs and AOs?
What is his?
These plans should be very specific.

An article for you to read and consider: What to do when you are not meeting your spouses need for sex

An article that you may find helpful when dealing with the talking about politics issue: When should you tell your spouse "We have a problem."

Gotta work on lunch now but I see Prisca has given much to chew on! Thank you! I'll be sure to check back in soon to answer and read the links.

Read the article.

Look at the statements.

If you can't see it, then obviously I must be crazy.










Also, Anointed - how has the UA time been? Can I take a quick guess... and say - "It ain't been."

No he is not.
Got it. I thought I was doing the right thing by letting him know I was on the edge so we could fix it. He has been saying I have threatened him about leaving several times over the last year, and I have said, "It is not a threat if I mean it." He said he is feeling very insecure in the relationship and rightly so. I will not threaten to leave again. If I need to leave, I will just do it.
Yes.
Right now we are reading one chapter of LoveBusters each night after we work out together. My plan is to write down any time he uses a LB on me. I'm thinking DH will, too. I would like to see all LB completely gone in 6 months. Is that too high a goal?

That link was good, Prisca. I would like to order that book once I am finished with all the other ones I have acquired. Right now we are having SF about 2X per week. I have started talking to DH about how to help me relax and get in the mood. I learned yesterday that a woman's arousal goes very differently than a man's. Intimate Conversation-->Sexual Neutrality-->Sexual Interest-->Sexual Arousal-->Sexual Desire-->Satisfaction (which may or may not include an orgasm)

I have noticed that I am very anxious and nervous before SF, and I have mentioned rubbing my feet and shoulders, back, etc would help me relax and stop my mind from racing. I am trying to be more communicative, and I hope I am not hurting his feelings in any way.

Yeah, Prisca...I didn't do any of those things.

When we read the chapter on DJ's last night, both DH and I failed miserably when we took the test at the end.

DJ's are probably our biggest problem.

It wasn't good last week. Now I think we are on the edge of 15 hrs per week of UA. I'd like more and I'd love to nail it down in our calendar. I don't want to demand it, and I'm feeling a little hesitant to bring anything up while we are learning. I can ask.

It actually takes so much character and love for the other person to care so much how they feel that you put your desires on hold until you can come up with a mutually satisfying agreement. I have been very selfish.

One of my biggest problems has been demanding we talk when he doesn't want to. When I do that, I am feeling a lot of pain and I just want it worked out so I can breathe again. But his desire to NOT talk about it at that time is something I need to respect.

Pain or not. He deserves a thoughtful request.

I hope he is willing to meet my needs and stop the pain. Either way, I know what my path is, and that feels pretty good.

I think it would be a good time-frame for each of you to recognize your own LB behaviors so that they can be actively avoided. Then, avoiding them will begin to erase them as habits.


Have you read the article Rules that Guide Good Habit Formation in Marriage?

Reacting with Love Busters pretty much falls under MR3.

Concentrate on the other two while you work on this.

Okay so focus on enjoying my new behaviors and on enjoying what comes after my new behavior.

Avoid punishments.

I'm looking for ways to apply this stuff with the kids, too!

Thanks, HHH.

He makes good points with it.

We have more luck getting the girls to do their chores when they get weekend cash than when they lose any privileges. They just kind of go without said privileges and move on.

Oh, and also make sure that he enjoys his new behaviors, and what comes after his new behaviors - and vice-versa, and so on.

Ouch.
I can tell you from experience that those are some of the most terrifying words you can hear your spouse say. I do not have to wonder why your husband has been reluctant to do anything -- he has no reason to hope for anything.

These threats on your part has caused a lot of damage that will take time to recover from.

Great

[/quote]
Take this one step further. You have the workbook now, right? There is a form in it for creating a plan to overcome DJs. It has several questions to fill out, and then you share your answers with your spouse. Then you use those answers to create a detailed plan.

6 months is not too high a goal. That is the amount of time I heard Dr. Harley say it takes to create a complex habit.

On how to eliminate DJs ... this was a very hard thing for me to do. I knew I needed to do it, but HOW? DJs can be such a sneaky habit -- often times, the DJs are easily justified because they're "true." I didn't say anything that wasn't true! It's very easy to overlook your own DJs and only focus on your spouse's DJs.

They told Markos in Anger Management his first rule was to "Shut up!" I found this very helpful in eliminating disrespect, too. If you are feeling any kind of irritation, shut up. If you are feeling justified, shut up. Just don't say anything until you can control what you say. You will not explode.

The second thing I did was practice being respectful of Markos when he wasn't around -- I stopped journaling about him. I made myself post respectfully about him. When you dwell on disrespectful thoughts, it will affect how you treat your husband. Force yourself to think about him respectfully. Try to see his point of view.

Those are two practical ways to help overcome DJs.

Prisca paints it pretty well.


So, how can you recognize them?

Have you looked at the Disrespectful Judgments article?

Yes, I do have the workbook, so I'll look at how to use it while we read.

#1 shut up when irritated
#2 practice being respectful when he is not around

I've noticed that I even use DJ's when I am praying! I have stopped this and notice that I watch for it in all my relationships and even when angry at the guy driving too slowly in front of me.

I think I'm right when I figured out that calling someone a name is a DJ because you are placing judgement on them for not doing things your way, right?

Yes, the article reiterates what we covered in the book together.

It's funny...we decided to read this chapter separately during the day, and when we got together about it DH asked if I had read it beforehand since it seemed like it wad assigned to him based on the example given. It was very similar to ours.

Of course there are all kinds of examples that point to me as well. Just thought it was funny.

I love the 10 second pause. Before you respond to anything always pause 10 seconds ... you will notice the other person will likely continue to talk ...

It helps me to not say something disrespectful ... it helps me to form my thoughts carefully, and it shows the other person I am in control of the conversation (subliminally)

By pausing before I speak I have a much better handle on how I communicate to those around me, even my children.

So I finally wrote down some LB my DH committed Saturday. We usually talk them out as they come up pretty successfully, but Saturday was one LB after another. I decided it would be best to write it down and then discuss it. When I did, he said he felt I was criticizing him. I told him I was sorry, and I asked how we could discuss these things without him feeling that way. He didn't know. He also kept reasoning with me why they weren't AO or SD. I told him that according to MB it is not up to him to determine if they are LBs since I'm h only one who knows what drains m LB.

I can see how he could feel that I was teaching him.

How do you discuss LB in a mutually satisfying way?

Also he left on a business trip today for the first time in our marriage. He will be gone until Thurs afternoon. He asked if it was ok, and I did agree to it. But I feel so upset. I know that it is detrimental to travel in a marriage. I told him I wanted to go, but he said even if we had the $ to buy my plane ticket he would feel like I'm just checking up on him. He said I make him sound incapable of protecting us. My heart hurts. I know he is excited about this trip bc it provides a much needed opportunity for advancement. Many advancement opportunities in his industry require travel. We need $$.

My heart hurts.

Anointed, if he was still ticked Saturday, maybe that wasn't the time to discuss it. And if I recall, it's okay if he doesn't agree with you, you spoke your mind and it will sink in. You are giving him the information he needs.

That's an interesting screen name, what does it mean?

What's going well in your marriage journey, strengths you can build on?

Thanks NED. I guess my question is, how do I need to act when I'm upset? He had made some pretty large withdrawals from my love bank, and I was acting distant. He was already feeling defensive because of my obvious displeasure. Do I just act loving and happy even when I don't feel that way? Is that authentic? How do I decrease the chances of him feeling attacked. I asked him to humble himself...to really hear my heart. I was not criticizing him. I wanted to let him know I was upset. I don't feel like it is safe for me to disagree or change my mind.

As far as the screen name: 2 Corinthians 1:21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Physically, anointing someone with oil is a sign of being surrendered to the work of God. Spiritually, I believe that followers of Christ are anointed with His Holy Spirit in order to mirror God's image.

What is going well? We are both much more aware of LB's which has greatly decreased the frequency of them. My DH said he has noticed that my AO are much fewer. I agree. I have really worked on completely eliminating DJs in all my relationships. I now really have to work on it more with my kids.

Radical honesty has been a tough one for me bc I haven't felt safe to disagree or change my mind. I told DH so. I guess that is our next step. He has begun to realize that when I don't answer him at all, it is bc I am feeling uncomfortable with replying.

My DH is very attentive and sweet

Our UA time has significantly decreased since we stopped working out together. I prefer to do a much harder workout, so I was doing a tough workout during the day and then working out with him at night. It was exhausting, and he didn't feel like I was getting enough accomplished around the house. I felt like it was a lose-lose situation fr me. I think I will work out with him again, but I don't feel it has been POJAed. I lik to do long runs, hard cardios, etc. He does not. Just weight training. He did say he might try one of my workouts in May, though, so maybe that is POJA?

Right now the UA time is an issue. Also the work travel may become an issue if he is promoted. I also would like what I say to be thought of as me expressing my heart rather than a criticism. I guess I need tips on how to approach him.

LBs are fewer, though.

An example of his thoughtfulness is that he has kept me posted on what he is doing while away, and he facetimed with me last night so we could talk and get ready for bed together. It was so comforting to see his face, and he showed me around his hotel room so I didn't feel so disconnected. It meant a lot.

How do you act when you are upset?

You act upset.

How should you act when you are upset?

You probably shouldn't act.

That's why Dr. Harley suggests ending a conversation if one spouse or the other becomes upset. Feel upset = act upset.

If you want to know how you should act towards your spouse, think of two simple rules; be the greatest source of your spouse's happiness, avoid being the source of your spouse's unhappiness.


How do you avoid him being defensive?

1) One problem at a time.

2) Use "I" statments; I love it when you ________. I would love it if you would/would not _______.


Have you ordered any of the books and/or workbooks? There are tools provided to help you learn to communicate Love Busters effectively.

Thanks HHH. Ok, so while I am waiting for myself to calm down, how do i Interact with DH throughout the day? Kids, chores, etc. Is it ok that I am distant?

One problem at a time....so don't hand him my paper? Just mention one thing? There were about 5 LBs in one morning.

I will remind myself of the I statements.

Yes, we do have LB and the workbook. We are about done with the book an will do the workbook soon I hope. It seems our workin on the marriage is slipping down on the priority list.

P.s. I really like the not talking when I'm upset. What happens if it takes me 3 days to calm down? I ask this because it has happened before.

Can I take a SWAG at why you are "distant?"


Is it because you are continuing the argument in your head? Obsessing?


How about knocking it the crap off?

If you need time, take time - 5 minutes. Then get over it, and finish your day.

No, 3 days isn't going to work. You wouldn't let your husband pull that on you, would you? Three days of silence isn't "being upset" it's serving a vendetta, it's putting out punishment.

If you want to wait 3 days, wait 3 days until you bring it up again, but quit wielding your anger as weapon inside your home!


I know I'm being a little rough here, but... wow. You know that don't work, girlfriend. That stuff is why you are here!

I see. Hmmmm.

Is this just a decision you make? I stay upset because the problem has not been resolved.

Am I afraid that if I don't stay angry, it won't get resolved? I think so. So, it is a mind shift. No, I don't like it, and I can be ok becaus I know we WILL work it ou later. Right?

Is that the mindset? I am changing my perspective on things by choosing not to live in fear.

I come from a place of strength when I can be pleasant and confident after a LB. Is that right?

Oh, and my DH will go just a long as I will on the distancing. We both do it. I know, yuck.

Bingo! Bango! SCORE!

Can you get that tatooed on the back of your eyelids?


You've been around for a while, you have the books. That "place of strength?" That's going to be your LB$. By learning to fill your H's LB$, and him learning to fill yours, you will build the necassary strength and patience.

Being pleasant is motivated by increasing your account, confidence comes with allowing him to fill yours.


Ok, so how does that work on you when he does it? I'm guessing not well.

Set a new example, write a new script.

So, yes. Do other things instead of hanging up on conflicts. Don't think obsessively.

If it cannot be negotiated to PoJA pleasantly, put it aside until it can. Revisit it once weekly. In between, don't obsess about it and use it as an excuse to LB or deny ENs.

Those are marriage destroying habits.

PS;

You can totally brush the thought aside, even if it is "unresolved."

You brush a million thoughts aside over 3 days of obsessing about a problem.


You may not be able to control the thoughts that pop into your head, but you can control the thoughts that stay there.

Ok HHH. This is gold. Thanks.

Sometimes it takes an "aha!" moment even after reading this stuff over and over.

I will ge it. I'm close.

Thanks.

My husband comes home from his business trip tomorrow afternoon. I cannot be angry that he went on the trip (even though I don't want him traveling without me) because I agreed to it. But I do have a question.

Would this bother you? He called me the first night away (Monday) and told me he had dinner rather late with his male co-worker since they just got set up at the hotel. It was around 11pm there when they finished eating. He told me they ate in a sports bar and thought it was weird that the waitresses wore shorts and tanks because it was freezing outside. Yes, it was one of THOSE establishments.

I was not happy.

I know he was with a superior who was paying for everything with a company credit card, and to be fair, he probably didn't know it was one of those kinds of places because he hadn't heard of it before. But once he was in there, should I be upset that he didn't protest and eat elsewhere? There are 24 hr fast food places to choose from.

I don't know.

I have been a nervous wreck the whole time he was gone. Not because I am afraid something will happen...I am afraid we are setting a precedent for our marriage to fail by opening this door.

Here is the text conversation from Wednesday night before he came home yesterday regarding another issue:

Me: what are you doing?
DH: eating barbecue
Me: y'all eat late!
DH: it's 8:30 here. We work late! I'm getting very aggravated with where I'm at in my career. I feel like I should be several steps higher than where I am.
Me: sorry baby
DH: I won't be in til later. We are going to cruise 8 mile road then go to some famous bar. My phone is fixing to die, but I'll call when I get to the hotel. I love you.
Me: I don't like the idea of that. Who all is going?
DH: Peter, Doug, and me
Me: good night
DH: it's more for the experience
(silence)
DH: I love you!
Me: I love you
(an hour later)
DH: boring, drive forever, heading back to hotel
DH: FaceTime me?

I did chat with him that night, and I didn't bring anything up again.

This is PROOF to me that we most certainly do not need travel in our marriage without some very serious discussion. I would like to always travel with him. Period.

This was his first time traveling for work without me, and he made some very poor decisions.

Can I please get your feedback? I don't want him to get defensive, so i need to know how to approach him. I asked him to set up some travel EPs with me before he left, but I could tell the conversation upset him. This proved to me that he does not know how to protect our marriage despite his offended statement that I made him sound incapable of protecting us. I do not feel protected.

Is the situation so obvious that it doesn't need a response? I want to do what is right for our marriage and really could use some tips on how to approach him. I don't want him defensive right off the bat. That would ge us nowhere.

I really appreciate your counsel and feedback....

"I don't like idea of you going to bars without me, and I would prefer that you didn't do that. Wanna go have lunch at bistro? I'm craving a panini."

You can't control whether he gets defensive or not. What you contribute is more a matter of what you're thinking and doing, not just what you're saying, so it's hard to contribute what I would like to. If you were in town, I'd offer to babysit so you could get some time to reconnect together, to where this stuff settles back down into perspective, so you guys can eliminate it together. But right now it sounds very high stakes, very difficult to de-escalate if you're still unsettled.

Thanks CWMI! So...in essence I've already done that, right? I made one statement about it during our text convo and then dropped it. Is that all I need to do? What if he wants to travel again without me? Make one statement and drop it? And then what if he does it anyway?

I see, NED. How should i be thinking about this? I'm still trying to grasp what HHH said and not live or think in fear. To walk with dignity and calm in the face of aggravation, etc. Is that what you mean?

I know what you mean about reconnecting. I think I've done the face-off thing since we still have not had SF since he got back on Thursday. It was hard for me to think about it when I had felt somewhat disregarded by his actions while away. I'm still lining things up in my head so I can avoid abusing him with LBs, but neglecting him isn't right either! Ugh! I have felt like I would be sacrificing if we were intimate while I felt hurt.

I'm still trying to get MB. I really am.

It's not dropping it, it is giving them time to react without anger or whatever their go-to reaction is: defense, deflection, disregard. It is planting the seed (some, like Ned, called it drive-by-honesty) and not demanding an instant harvest. And you don't just drop it forever. You wait and see if they respond once they have mulled it over (I have rarely had a good experience in expecting an instantaneous RATIONAL response to a complaint), and if they appear to have forgotten or disregarded the complaint, you voice it again, in the same nice way providing them an excuse to not get into the depth of the discussion immediately: "I would really like it if you would commit to never going to bars without me. There's a new one that opened last month in town that has a band tonight. How about we go check it out this evening?"

If he DOES do it anyway, you can simply ask him, "Did you hear me when I said I would like if you didn't do that?"

NOT: Did I stutter? Got cotton in your ears, boy? Hate me much?

Just open the conversation with a sweet, "Did you hear me?" He can say yes and explain why he ignored it, or he can say no and you can send it to him in email and request a response. Then you KNOW he's got it. Tell him in the conversation that you will send him an email to refer to, because you don't want to make a big deal about this and know he is willing to protect you if you just make it clear how you need it.

CWMI,

I am in the process of reading your threads from the beginning. I think I'm beginning to grasp the how-to mental process regarding bringing up complaints without LBing and denying ENs. I'm not doing it yet, but I think I can. I think I can. I think I can.

Your response really means a lot. I am mulling it over. Thanks.

Anointed,
I'm pretty new here, but just wanted to say I understand and am having the same difficulties with bringing up issues that bother me.

I've found I have to take a bit of a breather break to get my emotions in check and think about exactly how I should voice my complaint before saying it. Otherwise LB's will happen or DH will not hear me. Granted he too even when stated without LB's does sometimes still get defensive. The advice you were given about just letting it drop then and waiting to see if it sunk in before revoicing it at another time is definitely helpful.

I'm like you. I hate leaving an issue unresolved, but I'm definitely learning that reacting in an emotional state was not resolving anything. It was making things worse and causing a lot of love bank withdrawals. If I find it hard to stop dwelling on it and keeping my emotions high I find something to do that requires my concentration for a bit.

I recently had to read Crucial Conversations and Crucial Confrontations for work and they really helped me with POJA at home.

Not in any way a replacement for MB, but the books gave me more tools in my toolbox and better ways to keep our conversations safe and productive.

Thanks hopestrengthens! I'm glad I'm not the only one who struggles with this. Right now I'm reading CWMIs thread "would you believe this" and then I'm going to read atena's 180 link posted there. I really need to learn to detach from the pain and not be defined by it.

Strength.

Thanks HNC!

I'm making a list of books to read regarding this subject (like I don't already have 100 waiting for me!) maybe if I can find them at the library the time crunch will help me finish.

I don't think the 180 is of any value to recover your marriage.

the Crucial books are HR books more than anything else, but they helped me with lots of difficult conversations.

I see. I'll keep that in mind. Right now I am noticing thru CWMIs threads how much of LBs start out in your head. I know, I know. I've been told this all along. It just takes a while for some of us to let it sink in. I'm working on my thought processes.

Can anyone tell me how to post in this forum I am at a loss here and can't figure it out. Sorry in advance if this ends up in the wrong place.
I am having trouble with AO and DJ and just need a little encouragement.

amibroken, start up a new thread by clicking on "New Topic." A box will pop up and you can start a new thread.

You can only see "New Topic" when you come out of a thread and are looking at the list of all the threads in a particular forum.

So to start a thread in this forum, you need to be looking at the forum page for Marriage Builders 101 - where all the threads are listed.

"New Topic" is at the top of the list of threads.

Thanks for helping amibroken, guys!

Things that are standing out to me from CWMIs threads:

In order to stop DJs I must separate the WHAT from the WHY in my own head.

Also LovingAnyway said "You didn't react to your fears and you acted to your beliefs directly"

YUP.

It's a good thing CWMI was told so many different ways to clean up HER side of the street even though she made good points about her DHs behavior...that way I would get it.

And ditto on the DJs...I just needed to read it over and over.

MB has taught me so much about how to be a respectful person~

Everyone has the freedom to change their minds.
I don't have to exert unneeded energy trying to figure out the why and what
people are thinking. In fact it is disrespectful to do so.

There is so much more, but I am focused on these today.

I am glad you are getting something out of my threads. I do want you to know that several of my early "advisors" have since been removed from the boards...I would not recommend attempting to follow the advice of them.

Honestly, where my marriage is now is due in largest part to my H's change of work environment, which came with its own problems as told in "Duped". I have a very special husband, and it was essential for him to change how he interacted (or failed to, for the most part) with not only me, but others, in order for us to have the marriage we have today. I don't want you to think that just cleaning up your side will bring about a miraculous recovery, especially since your H has had affairs---which had absolutely nothing to do with your DJs prior, but may have to do with them now.

I agree with CWMI. Somehow your H has to make changes. I saw a near-180 in my H today, and it was our first session with Steve Harley. If he isn't considering your feelings, he won't miraculously start now. It may take a "wake up call" of some kind.

For me now in my marriage struggles, my job is to stay clean, but I cannot put up with bad behavior from my H forever. I am in tune with myself to know my limits, and I wanted to get help before I started "hatin'" I am no expert, but I would recommend getting outside help, Serious MB outside help. Your H doesn't sound like he's caring for you, though you are working very hard to care for him.

Other better posters, correct me if you see this differently!

Bless your heart, Anointed. You are a very kind person. I want you to be happy, not getting hurt any more!

(((((((((((Anointed)))))))))))))

Hi Anointed Sorry I haven't been around ... "life" happened!

Here's a few things that jumped out at me:

It is difficult, because one spouse is prone to write a complaint with DJs, and the other spouse is prone to bristle at complaints. Nobody likes to be told they've done something hurtful.

When you complain, do so in a matter-of-fact way. Leave the emotions out of it. "It bothered me when you did ..." "I felt is was disrespectful when you said ...."

When your spouse complains to you, swallow your pride and listen. You do care for each other, right? Are you willing to change in order to protect each other? Then you must need to know what needs to be changed ... so listen!


Feeling distant when you've been hurt is normal. You may not feel lovey-dovey after withdrawals were made from your lovebank, but you can be pleasant. You can use a pleasant tone in your voice, keep a pleasant look on your face. You don't have to be happy to be pleasant -- all this means is treating the people around you with kindness, even the one who has hurt you. Does he deserve kindness? Probably not. But remember, you probably don't either.


DJ!

What do your complaints look like on your worksheet? Would you care to post a few? If it includes asking him to humble himself, you are making DJs in your complaints, and they will NOT be heard. All he will hear is the critisim.


Remember what POJA is -- the Policy of Joint Agreement. It means NEVER do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse. If your husband is not enthusiastic about taking long runs and hard cardio, the solution is not to force it on him. He will not enjoy it, and he will resent you for it. The solution is to find something that both of you enjoy together.
If he is willing to try your workout, that is great! Try to make it a great time for him. But, in the end, if he decides he still doesn't like it, then find something else. Don't force it on him. He needs to enjoy his time with you as much as you need to enjoy your time with him.


Not every problem needs to be solved right now. Some take many, many negotiations. It can wait until you've calmed down.

If there is a major problem that seems to have no solution, set aside an hour a week to discuss it together, to brainstorm and negotiate. When you leave that hour, do not bring it up again until the next scheduled time. Spend the rest of the week engaging in enjoyable conversation!


Yes it would. This is a violation of Extraordinary Precautions.


And you should be. Your feelings are right on target. Listen to them.


Because he is not protecting you. He needs to know that it bothers you for him to travel overnight without you. He needs to know that it bothers you for him to go to such restaurants. "This bothers me ... can we negotiate?

Thanks CWMI! I do realize that it ultimately takes two people to have a successful marriage, but if I don't look hard at myself and make the necessary changes I will be half of the problem.

I appreciate you sharing your story.

Thanks so much Zhamila for your care and concern.

I feel badly that I have represented my husband here in such a poor light. I truly believe that a lot of my pain came from DJs. I spent unnecessary energy trying to figure out what my husband, kids...well everybody...were thinking. How exhausting! It also brought me unnecessary pain because I do (now) believe that the people in my life can be trusted to tell me what they really want and what they really feel.

I trust other people to be accountable for themselves, and I will only be accountable for me (within reason e.i. Parenting).

I caused myself pain (and those around me) bc of my DJs, and for that I am truly sorry.

I couldn't figure out why I hurt all the stinking time!

My husband is a loving man, and a wonderful father. He does things that bother me sometimes, yes. But it doesn't hurt like it used to bc I take it at face value. No more, no less...just the facts.

Example of my DHs loving ways- he sent me his text today just because : "thank you for loving me the way you do."

I'll take it.

Thank you so much Prisca! I know you are super busy, so I appreciate it!

I wish I could make yours a notable post just for myself so I could read it over and over til I get it. I think I'm getting there, though.


Gotcha...those sneaky DJs. I usually don't write them down bc we've actually done fairly well at just quickly pointing them out and moving on. When I did write these down it looked something like this :

AO at kids in car this AM
AO at kids on dd's soccer team "kick the freaking ball!"
SD telling me not to drive all over town this PM

The problem came in when he asked for clarification, he got upset, and then I DJed.

About the travel...I did get clarification. DH said he didn't go to one of "those" places and told his co-worker he wouldn't. The waitresses were wearing regular shorts and tanks like you would see in the park or something. That's why he thought it was weird bc it was so cold outside. He also said he felt comfortable going out to the bar "just for the experience" bc they had both discussed marriage and their boundaries, so DH felt comfortable.

Even so, we still need to address the issue.

Thanks so much Prisca!

And that's the key, Anointed!

Each and every Love Buster, in short, can be described as abusive. There is no excuse to continue them, at all. Our spouse's Love Busters are no excuses or justifications for our own.


Yet, you have to think of the Three States of Mind in Marriage, and in particular Conflict.

In conflict, your Taker is at the wheel. For those who aren't third degree black belt MBrs, it can be a tumultous state. Your taker will LB to get your needs met. Be aware.

You can watch this in your own spouse, as things like DJs and AOs increase in occurence as you either draw him into conflict from withdrawal, or as he sinks from intamacy into conflict.

Be aware of those feelings in yourself, and don't allow yourself to resort to Love Busters. If you have a Disrespectful thought... don't let it take hold!


If your husband won't get on the bus? Well, it's his decision. And you have the right to not remain in a marriage with a spouse who is abusive or neglectful and will not change;


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_quit.html



The truth is, you are better to model the program and adapt it to your own behavior, no matter the outcome of your marriage. This program isn't designed to "fix" one spouse, or to assign blame to one spouse for the state of the marriage - and those who try to use it so are garunteeing themselves failure in it's application.

Anointed, I have read all your posts. I agree that cleaning your side of the street is good. HOWEVER:

I wonder: are you avoiding telling your H your real feelings, because you are afraid he will do what he wants anyway? If you told him how much it bothers you that he goes to bars/out of town/etc and he did it anyway, you'd have "proof" of how little he cares for your feelings?

Since you haven't made it abundantly clear, you can keep telling yourself that he just "didn't hear it" or "doesn't really understand." So when he's insensitive and thoughtless - you can pretend that he was just misinformed.

I liken it to you washing the same dish over and over, because your whole house has been hit by a tornado, and you are stalling for time before you have to face the whole sorry mess.

This will not solve anything.

Being honest is NOT a LB. Clearly expressing your feelings without DJs or AOs or SDs is the only way to start the ball rolling.

Anointed, if I am totally off base here, please tell me and I will apologize. I just keep reading about all the things he's doing, and about how hurt and sad you are...but are you telling him?

Just doesn't sound "fully recovered" from his "few affairs" - I sense Fear in these posts.

He needs to understand that it's your comfort that is important in that situation, and not his.

Now, examine your exchange there; ge got angry (AO), and you DJ'd.

Ever seen Mel's story about lettuce? In her correspondence with Dr. Harley, it was stated simple; her IB with the lettuce may have triggered his AO - BUT IT WAS NO EXCUSE FOR HIM TO AO.

By no means does refusing to Love Bust imply silence. By no means. What it does mean, is to make your complaints respectfully.

If you do not make your complaints respectfully, don't expect them to be recieved. Radical Honesty does not imply that employing Love Busters to make complaints is acceptable as a way to make complaints. In fact, in each and every definition of each and every Love Buster they are described as foolish and abusive tactics to get what we want from our spouses... and they fail.


And, don't fall into any trap about "constructive criticism." That's a psychobabble statement. There is no "constructive" criticism, just criticism. Attaching the word "constructive" is just an excuse to unleash a Disrespectful Judgment.

As you have gleamed from my posts, focus on behaviors when you complain. If your complaint is that he over-explains his "why's", tell him that. "I feel uneasy when you tell me I shouldn't worry about something because it wasn't like I imagine. I would like it if you would avoid going out without me altogether. That would make me feel safe."

Wow, thanks for the support Zhamila and HHH!

Yes, I m hesitant quite a bit. I am learning to walk in strength, and I admit that I still worry if I can respectfully complain...I wonder if I really can her his complaints without LBs.

I do worry. But then I go back to not worrying. I know I can do it.

There are still some items up for discussion, but they will be discussed.

I'm trying to find the middle ground instead of extremes (LBs or silence)

I'm so glad it's ok to revisit issues later. I just need to work on scheduling a time to do so instead of letting it hang until I find a "good time.

I will think on what you have both said.

Oh, and Zhamila, I do think my DH hears me and does care. He did not agree to go on that business trip until I agreed.


You are right. Very intuitive. But we are getting there.

Yes, I will do that...anything other than the behavior is a DJ.

Thanks, CWMI.

CWMI - You are so right! Focusing on how you feel about the spouse's behavior is THE way to be honest without LB'ing. That always helps me too. This way, Anointed doesn't have to worry about "why" he does or says something. She can just focus on "what" he's doing that upsets her and ask for behavior changes. Anointed, here's an example from my real life. See if it's helpful at all:

You say: "I feel unsafe when you go out without me. I don't like it."

If he says, "You don't have anything to worry about - I won't do anything wrong," (which is a DJ, by the way, telling you how you "should" feel) just keep repeating:

"I do not like it. I'd like to find an alternative we can both be enthusiastic about."

If he says, "You don't trust me! You are implying that I'll misbehave! You are so disrespectful!" (again, a DJ, telling you what you are thinking - which he can't possibly know! and the beginning of an AO) just keep saying,

"I am not assuming your motives nor your character. I don't know what is going on inside of you. I am simply telling you that your behavior is upsetting me and I'd like to find alternatives that will make us both happy."

Believe me, Anointed, I've had this exact same conversation with my H - over and over. He sometimes gets upset and disrespectful simply because he's being thoughtless and he knows it, but he still wants something VERY badly, even if it's at my expense. He is struggling right now: the alternatives in your (and my) marriage are:

1. He gives up some behaviors that upset you but pave the way for a great marriage ("a sacrifice" in his mind...he may be very focused on what he will "lose" rather than what he'll "gain" - a great marriage) OR

2. He does what he wants anyway, knowing it hurts you and will result in lost love, risking divorce.

He may still believe that he can have both: YOU and Whatever He Wants. He may keep trying to ride the line.

BUT, he must make a choice. He cannot have a happy wife and a great marriage if he keeps behaving inconsiderately, doing things that hurt you. You will actually be helping him tremendously by honestly telling him how you feel about his behavior and asking for changes. This allows him to clearly see the choice in front of him.

And....He is free to make that choice.

Allow him to stand on his own, fully understanding the consequences of his behavior. This will be good for both of you. If he chooses Care, you both win. If he chooses Thoughtlessness, you will clearly know where he stands, and can act accordingly.

Heaven knows I am struggling through these issues myself. You go, Anointed! Be honest! Focus on Behavior! Woohoo!

Thanks Zhamila. I will focus on honesty.

I have not represented my husband well on this forum. It has been one sided and whiny. If I had known then what I know now....but we learn and grow and move forward. I wish MrAnointed would have chosen to post his side of things. I do believe I would have gotten a lot more out of it.

But since I criticized him and hurt him via this board, I don't know if he will even read another post of mine.

Yes, there have been times he has disregarded my wishes, but 99% of the time he is very concerned for me. And there have been times I have demanded and DJed and had AOs, but mostly I am concerned for his well being.

There is so much hope for this marriage.


Ok I'll admit I can struggle a bit with this, but I'm a million times better.


That made me smile. Thanks Zhamila.

P.S. the going out issue has not come up before or since.

He knows what things are good for a marriage...it's the travel that threw a wrench in it. Thank God his job does not require travel at this time.

The previous business trip was a request from his boss and something he got my approval about before going.

Then do not agree to future business trips that do not include you going. Tell him you are not enthusiastic about it, and don't agree to it. You are doing nobody any favors by agreeing to things that make you uncomfortable or unsafe.

((((Anointed))))

You say you've been one-sided - that's ok! Your point of view is valuable, and you are the only one who can represent it.

What would we do without your voice?

I talked with DH about travel last night.

There are no business trips coming up (just a possible one with his parents in a couple of months)

I tried to discuss it,and we still got nowhere. My DH seems uncomfortable with bringing me bc he had to stay with his coworker the whole time to have everything paid for. How would I get around? How would I eat?

I told him I was content to wait a the hotel for his leftovers or I could rent a car. He then mention the airfare for this trip was $900. Ouch.

So $$ is an issue with me going, and he feels awkward about me going since no on else brings their spouse.

That is where we are on that issue.

Zhamila, you are great at validating me. Thank you.

We talked last night about several things: travel, how distant we've become, and what to do about it.

I mentioned some DJs DH made over the weekend and also pointed out when he made them during the conversation. He makes the same mistake of saying "I feel like you don't care" instead of focusing on the behavior. When I point it out, it is done very respectfully and in a calm manner.

I also asked if he wanted me to point the DJs out to him, and he said he didn't mind. Wow! He really is open to learning.

I am still feeling sad, however. I told him that I knew he didn't want to hurt me but I'm feeling hurt. He said that was true, and he was sorry that I hurt. I feel lonely bc our UA is almost nonexistent. I withdrew the week before he left on the business trip, and we never recovered. I worked out with him last night and our chat wasn't all warm and fuzzy but it's a start. Most of it I think revolves around scheduling our time well. He said he wants more of my attention when he gets home, and I'm wanting some time to myself and some UA chat time with him. He doesn't want to hurt our 2 yr old's feelings by telling her Mommy and Daddy want to talk now and then send her away with big brother. I think she will grow accustomed to it and ultimately feel more secure knowing her parents love each other. I wish we could settle this stuff but I'll keep moving forward.

I have offered SF several times but DH is tired. I told him it puts me in a bad spot bc that need is not being met for him, and he understood.

I cried in bed last night.

It all comes down to what I believe about travel. Is it a MUST in order to be promoted and get ahead? I don't know. If it is, do I believe that we can come up with something we are both happy with? Yes. My DH does not want to make me unhappy, and I do not want to make my husband unhappy.

We need to do the work. I hope some talking happens today...I'm ready to feel like we are working together again.

Oh, Anointed. This is breaking my heart!

He says he is "sorry you are hurt." Then what will you two change to stop the hurt?

Who cares what other people think? Who matters more: your feelings, or what co-workers think if you go with him? Please Anointed, put your marriage on the front burner. You need to stay true to your feelings, to the importance of your marriage. If you don't, who will?

What's cheaper: $900? Or $000's in divorce fees, splitting up a home, therapy for your lovely children?



I respectfully beg to differ with you on this. It all comes down to whether you are enthusiastic about his travelling. If you are not 100% jumping up and down, excited for him to leave town without you...then he doesn't travel until you find a solution where you're both 100% jumping up and down.

It all comes down to what you believe about what creates or destroys romantic love. If you truly believe that you can "make yourself" continue to love him, regardless if he continues behaviors that hurt you, then your marriage will not work. You'll get worn out, exhausted trying to maintain a feeling.

Your feelings are a response to his treatment of you: intentional or not (Thanks for that today, Steve! wink). That's why the POJA is so critically important: it protects you from his inconsiderate actions, and ensures you will "feel love" for him.

Whether the actions are deliberate or not doesn't ultimately matter - they still hurt! If I step on your toe 3x a day everyday and say "sorry" and truly mean it, your toe will still HURT...and you might even become suspicious of my "sorrys" after a while - I'd better learn to watch out for loose toes, take off my heavy boots, or just stay seated when you're around - i.e. change my behavior to avoid hurting you again. That is: if i care about your feelings.

The most empowering thing I've learned from MB is that I am not responsible for the love I feel for my H. That's his job.

Now, I can choose to "care" for him, "do nice things" so to speak. But my feelings of romantic love are his responsiblity. If he protects me and cares for me, I will love him. If he doesn't, my love will die.

My current struggle is when my H says, "I care" or "I'm sorry" but his actions do not line up with those words. That's when the territory gets confusing. You want to believe, you want to trust that your spouse has your best interest in mind. But when their actions clearly show you - over and over - that they are ultimately concerned with something besides your interests: that's when you've gotta roll up your sleeves and try something else.

I highly recommend calling Steve. If anyone can get your H on board, it's him. Plus, he'll help you understand it all too...he'll solidify everything for you both.

My only other thought on this is: please don't wait until you hate your H! It will be a lot easier if you've still got some love for him left!

I can personally testify that I waited too long in my 1st marriage - I didn't know all this stuff until we hated each other. I didn't think I 'deserved' a happy marriage. I didn't know that my feelings matter, that they are the canary in the coal mine - the earliest and best warning signal that death and danger are imminent!

You are crying in bed all night. Your canary is dying.

Please don't wait. Please get outside help, Anointed. You'll both be glad you did!

....just don't take all the 6 am appointments....you know who you are out there!

Anointed, I remember in better days travelling with my ex and the kids. We made some nice memories. It's kind of like he's swimming upstream here with the job, what would make him enthusiastic about doing that, maybe you two can brainstorm. You both have SF as an EN, right, how can you make time for that at a point in the day where you're not tired?

Yes, ma'am!

Thanks Zhamila.

I believe we are working on MB, me moreso than H since I have more free time to read.

Thank you for helping me with my feelings. It's not a trust thing regarding travel. I trust him. As I said before, I do not want to open any doors (not even a crack) that could lead to damaging our marriage.

It is ok that I feel that way. And I don't have to compromise on this.

I will discuss with H about calling SH.

We are more than short on $$ since I'm a recent SAHM.

"I am not responsible for the love I feel for my H. I am not responsible for the love I feel for my H. I am not responsible for the love I feel for my H...."

Thanks NED. He really is struggling with his job, and I hate to add to the "pressure" with my feelings on travel. I think he kind of feels like he has no choice...but we can figure this out.

The SF issue did come up, and just as I suspected he was feeling angry that I hadn't met that need. It wasn't for lack of trying! The night before last I did realize that he didn't shut the door completely on it, but I was feeling hurt and didn't initiate. I wish I did.

We had SF last night, and it was very nice. He said he missed me, and I did too.

I prefer SF in the AM but H gets up for workat 6:15...I am not a morning person. We did talk about his wanting to get in bed by 10:30 at night to sleep, so I have a better timeframe on when everything needs to get finished. We usually workout from 9-10pm. I think we are figuring this one out.

My H took off today and tomorrow from work to attend a freedom ministry class at church. I'm so glad he is open to learning. I will be praying for him.

I really appreciate your support and encouragement.

Concentrate on this.

When you get enough UA, and are enjoying it, every other problem will seem much easier to tackle.

Thanks Prisca. We talked last night about changing his schedule from 8-5 so he can workout in the morning. I could then workout during the day so he doesn't feel so hard pressed to get everything squeezed in. He works 7-4 right now but the work environment frowns upon actually leaving at 4. Might as well go in later IMO!

I guess we'll see.

Why not workout together? Deposits in the ol Lovebank.

Dr. H told me himself that gyms are not good places for spouses to go alone. This can count as UA time also?

Hi Anointed!

Ugh - I do wish you could counsel with SH. Somehow it really helps to have an expert 3rd party helping out. I'll pray for your marriage & the $$.

Have you ever thought about writing to Dr. H & Joyce on the radio? They always answer your questions, might send you a book, and if you're on the radio, they will even write you back personally! The three interactions I had with them over the past year kept me hanging on. I am so grateful!

Go Anointed!

(I couldn't resist)

Thanks BH.

We actually do workout together now, and it's ok. My H gets focused on the workout, and i don't feel much connection on my side. I would prefer doing something else together at night or for H to interact with me instead of silence.

Since we need to get in bed pretty much when we get home, the UA time just isn't meeting my needs.

I actually have been on the show. You can listen to it if you look at my previous posts. Prisca posted them and summarized it.

But that was about exposure...not this other stuff.

Yesterday I went in to see another counselor at church, and they have an affair recovery program that looks intense! I'm thinking this would benefit me greatly even though d-day was almost 9 years ago.

I have some more recovering to do.

I know y'all can see it, and now I can too.

What a ride, right Zhamila?

Did you talk to DH about coaching with Steve H?

I know cost was a concern, but can you swing it? Look how he's helping Zhamila?

Whee! Anointed, "It's all fun and games til someone gets their eye poked out!"

So, that's awesome you've been on the radio! Actually I do remember now, back in December, right?

For us, I realized that I wasn't able to get through to my H. I'd tried honesty, respectful persuasion, everything. Nothing worked. I had done all the work I could do on myself, and he wasn't joining me. I was unsuccessful in motivating him to come along with me in our relationship. SH has been able to give my H the incentive and long-term vision that is motivating him (so far...we'll see how it goes)!

Perhaps you could call the office and ask their opinion on coaching v. online program? The online program is cheaper but there is still accountability and outside support. We were too far gone for that - because I asked.

SH told both of us that this is often the case: spouses will listen to a 3rd party, but not to each other, until they 'learn" to listen to each other. Crazy, huh?

Maybe a cheaper way would be to see if your H would post here and see what kind of help and advice he might get?

Still praying and cheering you on! ((Anointed))

When you really examine Love Busters, the states of mind in marriage, and the Love Bank model, it's not that crazy.

You see, you say you used "honesty and 'respectful persuasion'" trying to convince your H to come on board?

Here's the issue, the line between "respectful persuasion" and Disrespectful Judgements is razor thin. Not to mention, what I may consider a "respectful persuasion" towards my wife may be percieved as a Disrespectful Judgement to my wife.


So, why then, would a third party have better luck?

With continued attempts to have my needs met by my wife in ways which I percieved to be respectful, but were found otherwise by a non-initated wife, I have driven my LB$ balance with her into the red. She is in a state of conflict or withdrawal.

A third party - specifically a professional in this case - will have better chances because they have a neutral LB$ balance. When they speak to a spouse, they are not up against a raging taker.

Building and protecting your LB$ balances is why MB is a "narrow path" through and through.

Anointed, what fun FC and UA time do you have planned this weekend?

I did talk with H yesterday about coaching. It is just not feasible.

I also asked if he would post here since it is free, but he said he is not interested in spending his free time doing this. I told him that it was basically free counseling from people who are "doing" it, but it was a no go.

I was really disappointed because it would really fill up my LB$ to read from his perspective.

Zhamila and HHH,

I am not opposed to counseling with SH. I will pray hard for wisdom in how to approach my H. I can't know this for sure, but maybe since I am not at the door with my stuff ready to leave he doesn't feel it is dire?

We also are 5 weeks pregnant again.

No UA time planned over the weekend. Just went to soccer games and laid around the house.

It wasn't bad, but I wouldn't say my LB$ is full.

I'm sure my H feels the same way.

I mentioned to H that maybe we could do our devotions together at night before bed, and he said he didn't think that would count towards my LB$. I said Of course! We could at least try and see if it meets my need. He said ok.

I have been able to meet his need for SF as well.

I feel a certain heaviness on my H. I know he feels pressure to find a better job that pays the bills better and allows us breathing room. Add the new baby...what a pressure cooker for him!

I have no doubt that my H wants to do what is right for our marriage, and I believe he is completely overwhelmed.

I want to help him.

Also, I did not follow MB very well on Saturday.

My 13DD was throwing around DJ's all over the place, and I was trying to instruct her on her attitude. She did not receive my instruction well, and the DJ's went back and forth between my 10DS and 13DD all morning between soccer games. My H threw in a few as well, and I kept my cool.

I just calmly pointed them out to the kids (and sometimes my H), and showed them how to point out the behavior and just state their feelings.

I was doing pretty well until that evening when my daughter offered me a piece of chocolate, and my H said something like, "thanks a lot. Like she really needs that."

That was it for me! I had had it!

I told them that they were throwing DJ's around like darts, and I was tired of it! My H had also made a few very disrespectful comments regarding my son while he was playing his soccer game, and I was already defensive about that. I was so tired of the hurtful words.

So I joined in.

Ugh.

I let my H have it. I told him how disrespectful he had been, and I can't even remember all I said (another reason I'd love for him to post here).

I basically had an AO and threw in a couple of DJs for good measure.

The next morning he apologized, and I apologized (new record! It normally would have lasted 3 days.) He said he couldn't take back all the things he said, but he was sorry for hurting me. And I asked him about the chocolate comment, and he said he did it out of fear. He doesn't want a fat wife, and he knows I struggle with eating stuff like that. (I am not fat, but I'm not a Juniors size 2 anymore..more like a woman's 4). He has also noticed me being on a chocolate binge (a serious one) in the last few weeks, so I can understand his fear. I am getting balanced again.

Anyway, I was disappointed in my reaction. I have created this atmosphere with my H, and it is going to take a while to recreate it.

And here we are having a new baby. New stressor! We were trying to get pregnant which may sound crazy to you. It was just time. And I know my H loves me and wants to do what is best for his family. Plus God told me to move forward with the pregnancy.

I mentioned the affair recovery program at church, and H didn't say no outright (remember we never fully exposed). I would love it if we could do that. I asked him if it made him angry that I needed it, and he said he was disappointed and never enjoys these types of conversations since it just puts a knife in him everytime.

Maybe he has some healing to do as well.

Oh, to do it right the first time!

((((((((((Anointed))))))))))

Anything he can do to compensate for his affair, he should do it! It sounds like he wanted it swept under the rug. Did you read the post about the car on here? One lady had an issue with their car her husband took a woman out in. Dr. H told them, "Whatever it takes to help your spouse recover from your affair, do it! Sell the car!" She posted, then they were on the radio, too.

I'll try to find it and post it here...I'm not very good at digging things out but I'll try.

Long and short, if an affair recovery class would help you (if it's consistent w. MB principles), then he should really consider it.

Remember, it's your H's responsibility to make your marriage a SAFE and CARING place for you!

(Yes, it's yours to make it safe & caring for him...sounds like you are doing JUST THAT! Nice work!)

Congratulations on the good news!

UA and FC time doesn't always just happen. How about planning some things to look forward to, and get a sitter?

Keep going, Anointed - it does take some time to establish new habits. You've both had quite a while to work in a parallel fashion.

It has been 10 years since his last adultery...I can fully understand why he feels disappointed. You need to work on your side of the fence. it is a bad DJ to continuosly beat him up about his adultery. He is likely losing quite a bit of love with that DJ.

My suggestion is to determine what you need in order to never bring up his adultery ever again.

If exposure or lack of it is keeping you stuck for 10 years then please solve that issue immediately, &never discuss his adultery again.

Please look at upping your UA time 20+ hours because you both are losing love for each other.

Thanks Zhamila,

I was telling my mom last night that any compensation I have needed for his affair was enforced by me. He was "willing" to do whatever it took, but when it came down to it, I made him. He quit his job but it took 4 months (he was still in a fog), I put an internet filter on our computer (which totally made him mad, but now he is glad), I cut off ties with inappropriate female friendships (he was still foggy), and when I've mentioned wanting to travel with him he has been unwilling.

It would be nice to feel understood.

Thanks, NED.

I will see if he will sit down and schedule time with me. Last night we had plans to do our Bible study together but he had to work.

We did spend about an hour UA working out though.

Thank you maritalbliss.

I know changes are happening, but they can be so small they are hard to see sometimes.

I know we can do this.

And I have no doubt that we both want a happy and respectful home.

Thanks PrayIncessantly.

I guess I'm wondering how to not EVER bring it up again. I don't discuss it with him unless I have a question (i.e. "Oh, you are going to lunch for work? Who will be going with you?")

I don't discuss the actual affair with him. Just boundaries or if I have concerns.

The only reason it came up this time was because we haven't been transparent with people about it, and I have realized I have some work to do. I am not going to go to a small group about surviving an affair without his permission since it would affect him with people knowing.

I don't see how to get around that, and I thought I was being respectful of his wishes.

I do not beat him up.

In fact, I may have tiptoed around a little too much or I wouldn't be in my current mess.

(I did, however, beat the crap out of him in the early years of our recovery.)

I am all for upping our UA time.

I will discuss it with him.

((((((((((Anointed)))))))))))



I am sure you both want happiness. The challenge may be the different philosophies you and your H have about how to make that happen.

In my marriage, my H's idea of happy was "Don't ever complain about anything. Then I'll be happy."

My idea of happy is "Never do anything you unless you and your spouse are in enthusiastic agreement about it." and "Reveal to your spouse as much information about yourself as you know; your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes,dislikes, personal history, daily activities, and plans for the future."

So, I wanted consideration and honesty. He wanted "no trouble."

His version would make him happy, and me VERY unhappy.

My version may be hard to understand/see the benefit of at first, but would make us both happy (eventually).

It's kind of a long-term v. short-term thing. I think your H needs to get on board with a different philosophy. I think the one he's got isn't working for you.

Love, Zhamila

This concerns me, Anointed. If you are uncomfortable when he travels, please be honest with him about it. Either he doesn't go, or you go with him - find a solution you are both comfortable with.

I wonder if sometimes your DJs & AOs come from trying to hold in your feelings until they spill over? You are trying so hard to see the good in others, and overlook the bad...but the pressure of trying to change your feelings is too much, and you are overcome with emotion.

Your feelings matter! In fact, if you try to push them down, they will come out somewhere else: an AO about something totally unrelated, a DJ to your children, or (heaven forbid) a revenge affair.

It is time to be honest with yourself.

It is time to be honest with your H.

You are hurting. Please tell him. If he is not willing to hear you, understand you, listen - then call SH yourself and get some guidance.

I remember my H getting really angry that I wrote Dr. H. He was livid! I mentioned this on the radio, and Dr. H told me that seeking help for your marriage can be done unilaterally - since it's a health/safety issue. Women especially can get sick if they are heartbroken.

Seriously, we are in week 3 of coaching with SH after a YEAR and a HALF of PAIN. And things are already WAY WAY WAY BETTER!!!

You can have joy with your H again - the pain can disappear so quickly! Please consider it?




Sheesh...I sound like a commercial. But all I can say is WOW!

Hi Anointed. How are you doing?

I hope things are going well, and you have no reason to write because your marriage is wonderful!!

(prayers & hugs)

Anointed, where are you? I miss ya and hope you are doing alright.

Popping in real quick for Zhamila. Thanks for checking on me. Been VERY sick with this pregnancy and very miserable, so not doing much of ANYTHING. No reading, just existing. Hoping it will let up soon, but I am only 10 weeks.

Just letting you know I'm alive, Zhamila.

Thanks!

Hope you feel better soon!

At risk of being a "post stalker" I just wanted to say Hi to you and hope you're feeling better by now.

Is "Post-Pest" an accurate description?

Hi Zhamila!! You are funny.

I am almost 15 weeks, and I think I'm finally starting to feel better. I've been feeling bad (i.e. HORRIBLE) for over 2 months and have really gotten in the habit of withdrawing at night once my husband gets home. He complained that I was always on the laptop or ipad at night. I knew this was true but just felt so bad. I just wanted to be distracted without making any effort.

Now that I'm feeling better, I would like to change my focus back to the marriage. I stopped working out with him due to sickness but I would make myself go for walks with him after he would get home around 10pm. 30 minute walks helped but didn't meet the UA time we needed. I also only met his SF needs about 1X per week, sometimes 2.

We have been missing each other.

We also go to a Bible study together once a week without the children but have very little time to discuss things on our own.

Both of our older children were staying with family last night, so we went on a date with our 2 yr old in tow. It was nice but we crashed as soon as we got home.

Our intentions are for each other, but I need to make a plan to get back on track. We have never sat down and planned 15 hrs of UA together, so I guess I will do that myself.

I think my DH feels I hear his complaints better now, but I think I'd like to try repeating what I'm hearing him say. I've never gotten into that habit, and I'd like to try. He also hears me better when I point out any DJs. All I said this last time was, "I'd appreciate it if you would only state the facts rather than add your opinion as to why {so and so} did that." He just stated a fact. I acknowledged his complaint. End of story.

That was nice.

I find that I notice SD, DJ, AO when I look around in other relationships, and I can see what needs to be corrected. It is not as easy to see our relationship when I am entrenched in it. I wish I could seperate my feelings from the situation so I can just identify "he's making a complaint" rather than fighting urges to be defensive.

Last night I said, "I know you are making a complaint, but it feels unpleasant." This is something I may need to address in myself only. If he makes a complaint, does it mean something about me...does it mean he doesn't love me? What am I believing when he complains?

He gets to complain, and he gets to be heard...just as I do. I don't want to feel threatened at his complaint. I will look harder at this within myself.

Part of it may be that I hate hearing negativity from him so much of the time. He may be thinking positive things about certain things, but he usually chooses to share what he is frustrated about on most subjects. I'd like to hear good things. Words of affirmation are HUGE for me.

He tries to encourage me. I guess his complaints discourage me on top of all the issues in the world that bother him (politics, neighborhood, leadership, etc.)

Don't know what this post is to accomplish besides to update.

Things to do:
1) make a plan for UA
2) engage with family again
3) figure out what I believe about myself when DH complains

Glad you're back Anointed! Thanks for the update.

Can someone make a selfish demand without saying it verbally?

I may be DJing here, so I'd appreciate some input.

There were 2 things my DH wanted done today, and he mentioned them to me. Trim the bushes and vaccuum up the little spiders in the corners of the livingroom.

He mentioned them, and I didn't say yes exactly because I have my own list of to do's for today.

If he continues to mention them instead of just taking care of them himself, is it a demand?

I said, "How about I say no to the spiders outright because now I'm just annoyed by it."

He said fine. But later on I said you still love me right? He said yes, but "I'd love you more if you'd vaccuum the spiders."

Why did this annoy me so much? I did vaccuum the spiders (it's not like it was hard), and he already trimmed the bushes.

I'm just annoyed with him today because I have so much to do, and it feels like his stuff is priority. I think he feels that since I'm home all day with the kids that maybe I should have all my stuff done anyway and since he only has the weekend to get his stuff done that he needs to do that.

I'll ask him.

Also, he came home from working out and said,"What's for dinner?" He asked me that before he left to work out and I said, "I don't know. My go to meal is spaghetti, and you don't like that." If he keeps asking me instead of dealing with it himself when he can see I'm not enthusiastic, is it a demand?

I feel like he circles me asking questions til he gets the response he wants. That is a DJ.

I'm frustrated.

I also know that this:


and this:


are DJ's.

Disrespectful judgements are just hollow reasons to get upset about something that may not even be true! So am I just making myself upset because I'm not asking qualifying questions?

I think so.

Still frustrated though.

That is why when you both work POJA you have to phrase your questions

How would you feel ...
I have an idea ... how would you feel...
Would you be in agreement with ....

It has to become habit forming your questions, and nothing happens until there is enthusiastic agreement, i.e.

Husband: What's for dinner?
Wife: How do you feel about spaghetti?
Husband: I am not enthusiastic about that what else?
Wife: I was selecting spaghetti because I have very little time, and I cannot think of anything else quick and easy, do you have an idea or suggestion?
.
.
.
.

continue until you are in agreement. Once you both build this habit it will become second nature for you. A great place to start is with the kids. They will always come at you with the opposite. They are great negotiating practice people.

Frustration is the result of not using POJA.

Tonight before bed.

Wife: How would you feel about helping me get organized on Sunday?
Husband: What kind of organization?
Wife: Because of this and that I am behind on this... would you be able to watch the kids for two hours while I get organized?
Husband: Not really
Wife: How would you feel about hiring a babysitter for two hours so I can get organized?
Husband: We do not have the money?
Wife: So how would you feel about helping me with the kids while I get organized since we do not have the money?
Husband: Can I do it when little Sally naps?
Wife: Yes, as long as I can get two hours.
Husband: Okay, I will watch the kids for two hours while little Sally naps, and you can get organized.

Anointed's post contained a key piece of information; she was preparing a meal that she knew ahead of time he didn't like.

"I was thinking of spaghetti, and I know you don't like that."


If your husband doesn't like spaghetti, then why make it as the family meal?



Second, the reason that one spouse makes a decision that another spouse is not PoJA about is irrelevant. What is relevant is that one spouse is not PoJA about it.


That simply goes back to if your spouse does not like spaghetti, don't make spaghetti.


Lastly, if you are not PoJA about something (vacuuming spiders) say it.

"I am not enthusiastic/PoJA about vacuuming the spiders.


First time. Last time. If this is done, then there is no need for him to repeat the request... which does start to make it a SD. But, your husband isn't here, is he? And if you try to lecture him, you will then be making a DJ.

Simply state that you are not enthusiastic about it.

Thanks PrayIncessantly!

The how would you feel question has been missing. I never got in the habit of doing it every time.

I will work on it.

I like your example, Pray.

I can do this.

Yesterday, my DH said that if I didn't feel like making dinner that I was neglecting my wifely duties.

That was it. Either I make dinner, or I am being neglectful. I let him know that those are not the only two options and we can brainstorm for others. He had an AO and left the room.

He later came and told me what he appreciates about me, but this specific conversation was not addressed.

Today he said he is still frustrated with me.

There are not only 2 sides to any issue. I'd like to work on this, and right now I fear my DH is only seeing it his way or no way.

I don't understand this because he is very teachable and willing to grow and learn.

Not sure how to approach POJA when that is the response I get.

Okay HHH.

I will just say I am not enthusiastic about it.

I feel bullied lately, and that can only come from returning to a victim mindset.

I can say no.

He can respond however he wants.

Have you seen these?
How to resolve conflicts
Having Trouble with POJA Read all the letters in the having trouble with POJA.

You are both being disrespectful, and he is certainly making demands.

Read these:
How to Divide Domestic Responsibilities part 1
How to Divide Domestic Responsibilities part 2, letter 1
How to Divide Domestic Responsibilities part 2, letter 2

How many UA hours are you getting? What are you doing during that time? Does your husband enjoy it? Do you?

Thanks BH, I have read this, but I read this again to refresh.

I sent the links to my DH including the ones for REALLY incompatible couples regarding POJA.

Yes, Prisca I was disrespectful. I still struggle with letting my feelings get the best of me sometimes. I'm getting better though.

I sent your post to my DH in an email and asked if we could read these links later together.

Domestic duties are not as big of a concern to me because I have taken on the majority of things since I stay home now. I just get tired of doing all the cooking day in, day out, 7 days a week, and sometimes I just want some assistance. I don't want to abandon my responsibilities, though.

Since February, that is 4 months, UA time has been inconsistent. Even though I mentioned it to DH that I was feeling lonely and wanted to spend time with him, he didn't make a plan with me.

We have started taking 30 minute walks at night, and that helps some, but I'm so low in my LoveBank that I'm needing him to meet some important needs of mine. We have never taken the questionnaire together, but I will just do it on my own. After I finish posting in fact.

Our UA was non-existent when I was sick these last 2 months, so I'm sure that is why it feels so bad right now. I can't tell if he enjoys being with me. I ask him if he likes it when I come to work out with him (because I can't tell) and he says yes he does. He prefers it.

He is solemn and has many, many negative things to say about the world right now. Not very pleasant for me to be around.

I have told him that I need Affirmation, and he has made an effort to say nice things to me. Am I being disrespectful in my heart when I don't receive these types of compliments well, "You are the best stirrer I've ever seen." "Here comes the best mommy in the world." "How can you be sad? Usually beautiful women have no reason to be sad."

These sounds so insincere to me (especially with the tone and inflection he uses). He is a serious guy, but when he says these things to me, he has a silly tone. Is it a DJ to feel like it's a joke? I asked him if he was joking, and he said no. "Can I not compliment you?"

He says it in such a way that is out of character for him, and I try to take it as it is. It's just hard.

I will take the questionnaire and go from there.

Our text convo:

Me: I am so sad. And so lonely. (side note: we have not have SF for 1 week)

DH: Me too

Me: I'm sorry. I know you are. I am withdrawn but trying to reach out to you. Will you please consider posting on MB? We cannot afford coaching but some of these people really know what he teaches.

DH: I don't have time

Me: I'm trying to help you with your time. If I learn your (other job) stuff will you post? I'll learn it anyway.

DH: I don't want to

Me: K

I'm so discouraged.

I really like this post Enlightened. It makes a lot more sense to me now. I know I still have so much more to learn but I'm slowly getting it. Thanks.

Another great post, Enlightened. I'm trying.

Please consider posting her, MrAnointed.

You are pushing him. As good as it would be if he were to post here, you can't push him.

The real important thing is that UA time that has been neglected. So he might not feel like planning with you right now ... What can you plan?

Thanks Prisca.

You are right. I'm feeling a little desperate, so I'm doing exactly what I hate. The underlying motivation can be felt no matter how nicely I phrase it.

I will look at my calendar today and try to set up some UA time that would be fun for the both of us. I saw the inexpensive UA idea thread, so I'll take a look a that.

Thanks for being there for me, Prisca.

I read through my thread, and not too much has changed. So I better switch things up on my end.

I was feeling especially down at lunch today, and I was praying about it. I wanted to tell God how bad things were, but He pointed out just how far I have come personally.

I am still sensitive, but I recognize better my contribution to the state of this marriage.

I am much more concerned with my DH's feelings than ever before, and I do believe I have almost completely stoped making SD (at least the outright ones).

I know what a DJ is, and that is huge since they can be hard to pinpoint.

What else...let's see. I am much calmer these days (at least with my DH, still working on not having AO with my children...teenager and a pre-teen. Oy)

I am very willing to work on me. And that's good.

I have to admit, I tried very hard last night to talk myself into meeting my DH's need for SF, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it. I don't understand why I can't see it for just a need and meet it, but when I feel so disrespected and hurt it is very challenging.

I need to focus on what it is I can change and ask God to teach me how to meet his needs even when he doesn't meet mine.

I'm feeling quite distraught today but am trying to keep everything in a logical perspective since I know some of it is probably pregnancy hormones.

So I figured out 8.5 hrs of UA time before DH leaves for a trip with his parents on Friday.

I will focus on making it pleasurable for us both.

Also, I took all the questionnaires. My top emotional needs are

ADMIRATION
CONVERSATION
FINANCIAL SUPPORT
DOMESTIC SUPPORT
AFFECTION

I think. Financial and Domestic may be switched.

He won't be back until next Thursday.

He will be gone on our anniversary.

I wasn't exactly happy about that, but we haven't been the poster children for POJA.

I didn't want to say no because his parents have literally been waiting for years to bring him on a trip like this, and he finally worked it out in his schedule.

I don't necessarily mind that he's going for a week during our anniversary, but I would have preferred going along.

I spent a little over 2 hrs with DH last night. I went to work out with him for the first time in a couple of months. He was a little playful, and he joked here and there.

We then went for a walk around our neighborhood for 30 minutes.

Then I sat with him for about 30 min learning how to help him with some of his other work.

We went to bed, and I told him I'd really like to meet his need and I'm feeling very disconnected.

He said, "I feel the same way."

I'll try again tonight with the UA time and ask him to assist me in meeting his need for SF. I'd like to do a little dancing and I like it when he touches my face.

Maybe we have a shot tonight. I hate feeling so awkward.

Hi Anointed! I just caught up on your thread.

Don't worry about not coaching...honestly it has to come from inside. You are doing your part, and that's all you can control. I'm proud of you!

He is in control of his part. You can smooth the way, but he'll have to step up to the plate or risk losing you.

I'm sorry, I know it's hard. Something Steve said to me today was, "Make sure that you know deep inside that you did your part. Then no matter what happens, you can walk with your head held high, knowing you did everything you could do."

I'm actually documenting word-for-word my interactions with my H and sending them to Steve regularly. That's why I haven't been on the forum - really busy assignment! He told me today that I'm doing great, doing my part & doesn't see any DJs, etc. I'm sure this is true for you, too!

The ball is in someone else's court - keep on keeping on!

Anointed, honey, you sound exhausted. Do you think if you talked to your H and his parents about you joining the trip over your anniversary that you all could make it happen?

I think it was marks who said that when women are depressed it's because the love is missing in their M. rang true to me. So I am thinking just acknowledge to yourself that it's normal to feel this way, but like Zhamila said, you are doing the things to turn it around. It'll become obvious when it's time whether you two will fall in love the same way again. I like how you went in a playful direction, asking your H to help you meet his need, being open that you are interested.

Thanks Zhamila and NED.

I appreciate your encouragement, but I really don't think I'm doing that great at all.

I did work out with him again last night, and this time I was the playful one. When we went for our walk I mentioned that I'd done the questionnaire and I knew what my #1 emotional need was: Admiration.

We started to talk about MB, and I said that I'd learned the most with this program. I said something to the effect of, "I am not feeling connected to you." He said, "So you admit it's all your fault."

Now, if I was thinking straight, I would have recognized that he was kidding. But his humor can be very dry. He doesn't usually smile or laugh when he's joking. I've told him it would help me if he did...

I told him, that is NOT what I said. I did not place the blame on anyone and to take it for EXACTLY what I said. "I do not feel connected."

He said, "I was only kidding."

This is where I was the mopey lump that was probably no fun to be around. I could have just said, "Oh! Sorry!" And then kept it light, but did I do that?

Nope.

I did ask if he takes me seriously, and he said yes.

Then I stopped talking. Entirely.

Partly because I just don't know what to say anymore.

We hardly talked when we got home, but I wasn't angry.

There was no SF which I know is a HUGE problem. How could he WANT to meet my needs if I won't meet his? I just don't feel enthusiastic. It's now been over a week. And he's leaving for a week tomorrow.

I couldn't even bring myself to let him know how to help me have SF because I'm not sure what his response would be. I don't want to be teased.

I'm a mess.

NED,

I know I can't go along. DH's parents have 5 kids, and they have taken them all separately on different trips. Although, I don't believe the others were married when they took them.

Oh well.

I know what went wrong.

No relationship talk on UA time.

I guess I should have asked him when a good time would be to talk later, and then I could have focused on having a good time with him which could have led to SF.

I don't know when we'd have time to talk AFTER UA time, but I can see how relationship talk affects the mood.

I don't know that I enjoy our UA time. I need to work out, so I'm glad we do that together. I like walks, but our conversations are lacking (#2 need). I asked him if he could ask about me during our conversation, and he said, "What are you?"

Do you see my issue? I was asking for what I need and he was giving it to me, I suppose. I could've taken what was given, it just didn't feel good to me.

I answered, "I'm a woman."

Do you see why I asked if he takes me seriously?

This is part of the email I just sent MrAnointed: (may have tmi)

Here is a link to my thread.

I am trying to avoid any disrespectful judgements about you, and I think I'm being respectful. I would like it if you'd look at it sometime to see what advice I'm getting.

I know I turned into a mopey lump last night, and I'm sorry. I want to have fun with you. I guess my feelings are just hurt.

It was very important to me that I meet your need for SF last night, and it is also important that the things I do with you make me feel good too. It didn't feel good to try and meet your need for SF when I'm so seriously lacking, just as I'm sure you feel the same way.

That is why I am emailing you what would help me meet your need, and you can decide how to respond.

I want to make love to you. I always want to when I am feeling connected to you.

It would help me if you would just dance with me a little, to county love songs and just touch my face for a minute before you kiss me. I need gestures like that to show me that I'm special to you. It helps me open up, which in turn opens my body to you.

I wish I didn't need anything. I wish that very much.

But I do. As do you.

And I don't want you to leave for a week without me being able to show you that I love you in a physical way.

I'm very, very sorry I have not met your need. I'm trying to learn how to do it in a mutually fulfilling way, and I'm obviously failing miserably.

I love you.
Anointed

So when DH got home for work, I asked my DS to watch the little one while daddy and I talked.

We were going to talk, but that always messes up SF. So I just went for it, and it was great!

He thanked me a couple of times.

He leaves tomorrow afternoon.

I'm glad I tabled the talk for now, and it didn't kill me.

But I do need him to meet my needs. Somehow.