As much as the law will allow me. She is fighting for full legal and full physical custody and an extremely limited schedule for me (4 days per month). And may have a shot at it.

You live with her. Does the subject of the divorce ever come up in conversation? Does she share with you her feelings? Is there any indication of her mentality on removing you from the family equation (e.g. the 4 days/month edict)? Would she share with you what it would take for her to compromise on this stance? (perhaps she just wants a bigger CS check -- maybe you could come up with some deal that would be attractive to her).

--The lawyers are talking, obviously, and doing their best to bankrupt you both; evidently in the interest of their OWN kids, but not so much in the interest of YOUR kids. This does not prohibit YOU from talking to each other does it?

One more question: you have been unable to move (ie Plan B, legal separation) partly for financial reasons; are you folks planning to live together after you divorce? Do you have a plan for where you will go? Apparently she doesn't want you in the home, if she only wants you to see the kids 4 days per month...

By the way? Why has legal separation not been discussed yet? Or custody arrangements? This would have protected you from accusations of abandonment, and allowed you to start some sort of Plan B and get away from this dreadful situation.

I wonder what Dr. Harley would say about all this. Would you be willing to run it by them in an email? I'm certain they would answer, and that may give you some fresh ideas.

--a couple weeks ago Dr. Harley pointed out that stress (like the kind you're under, SBT) limits one's ability to be creative and problem solve effectively. You seem to be at your wit's end. I encourage you to reach out and get some more help.

opt

Legal separation would mean I leave my kids overnight with an alcoholic. I was not willing to do that. I have not voluntarily left her alone with the kids overnight in three years.

Dr Harley would probably encourage him to plan A even after divorce until the kids are old enough to decide where to live.

I'm not sure I;m capable of that. My plan right now is to go completely dark as soon as the D is final and custody is determined. I can't spend the rest of my life being pulled into her drama. My youngest is 4.

Sbt,
I've had two neighbor kids from alcoholic homes that have basically part time lived with us. I fed them dinner nearly every night because their parents only gave them boxes of cereal to self feed themselves. I took them to church, skating , the zoo....wherever we went.
They have both moved to live with their grandmothers.
There will be people like myself that will step up and be there for your kids.

If you continue to plan A you will be in their lives to help protect them.

Your wife is downgrading to a worthless drunk whore an it won't be long until she starts bringing men home. A study from Iowa found that 85% of children in alcoholic homes have been sexually abused.

She will not care for your kids because she can't. She has a disease and refuses to seek help or even admit that she has a problem.

I think you should continue to plan A until they can decide where to live

I understand it's difficult.
That's where the AlAnon program can help you EMOTIONALLY detach from her while still in plan A.

The issue isn't her.
It's the safety of your kids.
If She gets full custody they will be messed up for life growing up with an alcoholic single mom. I know.... Because I just divorced someone that grew up like that!

This is what Dr Harley recommended to me.
As earlier suggested you may want to email him for guidance for your specific situation:

From Dr Harley:

�In your case, I would
consult an attorney to be sure that if you are divorced, your wife would not
have joint custody or even visitation rights as long as she is in a
relationship with a murderer, putting your children's safety at risk. �If
joint custody is a real possibility, I would stay in plan A indefinitely,
even after the divorce, until your children can legally decide for
themselves where they want to stay (usually at about 12-13 years old). �If
you are certain that you would have sole custody with only supervised
visitation for her, I'd suggest plan B.

If you will be sharing custody, over time, you may be able to win her back
in spite of her emotional disorder. �She is in love with a man who agrees
with everything she says and does. �In marriage, that can't happen.
Conflict is inevitable. �But those with emotional disorders usually can't
follow the POJA, and the expect to be catered to when they take a position
on any issue. �Ultimately, most of these people end up divorced because they
can't form a mutually caring partnership for very long. �The issue is not
whether you should follow the POJA -- it's whether she can do it. �I doubt
that she can. �But for the sake of your children, if she leaves the other
man, you may have to cater to her demands.

In the meantime take care of yourself.
Exercise, eat well, go to church and AlAnon.
I know what it's like to live with an alcoholic. Make sure you spend time around healthy people.

Bad logic.
You will be forced to leave them with her 24+ days/month once the D goes through. A LEGAL separation IN ADVANCE of the final ruling would have given you the opportnity to see just how damaging (or not) that arrangement would work, once it takes effect via the Divorce custody arrangement.

We can all speculate on what Dr. Harley would say, although JK's contributions especially the letter above are very helpful. But getting it straight from HIM takes no more effort than you've spent responding to us today.

As for your response. I would appreciate you answering the rest of my questions as well. You are doing yourself no great service by cherry-picking the subjects you address in your responses. My intention is to help you think about some things you may not already have (or, if you have already, then to explain them, which may give you more clarity for yourself). This because I believe your ability to be creative is hindered by the tremendous fear you are operating under. We would like to see you consider other alternatives. By really thinking about and answering our responses and wquestions, you MAY see things differently.

Seeing things differently and doing something different is crucial to you SBT. Your current methods and actions are NOT WORKING.

opt

why don't you take a minute and do a signature, so we can all be reminded of you situation? This thread is over a year old. It would be helpful to know at a glance the ages of your kids and some other bullet points.

We are not planning to live together after divorce. She wants me out. I have refused to go. I have asked the court to order the house sold and we both need to move because I can't afford the way we live now - much less two homes in the future. We may both need to find a new place to live.

Legal separation has not been discussed. She wouldn't discuss anything. To a large degree she pretended the D wasn't happening - we both did - until the trial. She would not agree to a custody arrangement that wasn't heavily in her favor - it was a non starter. The last thing she agreed to before trial was every other weekend and one night during the week for me - the statutory minimum.

I've tried. She has no interest in anything that doesn't leave her with the kids. She is very angry I am making an issue out of the drugs and alcohol. You are either her friend or her enemy and right now I am her enemy because I am threatening her time with the kids. That's how she sees it anyway. When you are her enemy she is very vindictive and hateful.

That's a cute term "non-starter." But really, everything is a "starter," isn't it? It's a place to start a discussion. We who use MB principles would start there and POJA the rest.
-This is what I mean by trying MB principles. Not just Plan B, Plan A, eliminate LB's, etc. I mean all of it. I mean immerse yourself in it. This thread is over a year old, and one thing I don't hear from your posts is which MB concepts you've tried, even for yourself. Which books you've read. Where you're having trouble implementing. Things you might have heard on the radio show that might apply. Have you written to Joyce and Bill. What you have taught the kids about the Lovebank, or disrespectful judgments.
Maybe you have done these things but it doesn't come out in your posts and you most certainly haven't made any discernable progress.

By the way. She will not survive statutory minimum. It is a plan to fail. This is what I mean by allowing the separation to take place prior to a formal ruling. If you can go back after a 3 month period and report on what happened, the court could make the decision that it is not a good situation for the kids. This presuming you are not fearing physical harm would befall them - if that's the case you should already have a protection order in place.

The lack of progress also compells me to suggest that the email to the radio show is imperative. This board (at least anything I've contributed) just doesn't seem to be helping you. Why don't you let Dr. Harley himself take a crack at your situation?

opt

SBT,
Any thoughts on contacting the Radio Show?
Over the past couple of days there have been many topics discussed. A few times I thought of you and your situation. I find the radio show helpful because even if the opic is not directly related to myself or a particular issue of mine, Dr. Harley will often say something within the context of the discussion that is VERY pertinent to me and my life. Sometimes it's even related to my past, which gives me perspective on what happened and why.

Hope to hear some good news from you soon.

Opt

I'm not ignoring you. I've been busy the last couple days.

One question I have is this. How can I POJA with someone who has shown no interest in being reasonable. Every time custody would come up I would try to find some middle ground that could be tolerable for both of us. She responds by moving to a more extreme position. She's now taken that tactic to the point she used it in court to support her argument that we couldn't make joint legal decisions, therefore she needs full legal custody.

I don't know how to POJA by myself. I think I've been very reasonable.

Regarding one of your question about what I've done with MB... I've read SAA, LB and FILSIL books by Harley. I've also used Steve Harley via phone counseling for several months back when trying to deal with her A and exposure, etc. Also tried to implement POJA, POUA, PORH. We also each filled out our EN assessment. Working with Steve we were to each discuss our needs with the other. It was at this point that she declared she was tired of Steve treating her like she was in grade school and stopped working on these things with me. Independently I've tried to eliminate LBs as much as possible and make LB deposits. I found that difficult when she had told me she was completed "closed off to me" and me "being home" is considered a LB by her.

What do you want?
So you want to eventually win her back?

What do I want? I want my kids to have a normal, stable, intact family. I want a normal, loving, chemical free relationship with my wife. Unfortunately these things are not in my control. She doesn't think she has an alcohol/chemical problem and she has decided she doesn't want me in her life.

So short of those things I want the best possible scenario for the kids, which I believe is a 50/50 custody arrangement and a mother that is chemical/alcohol free. If mom isn't chemical/alcohol free then the kids shouldn't be with her unsupervised. Unfortunately, this is out of my control also and in the hands of a judge.

So, I'm not sure what I want matters.

Are you attending AlAnon meetings?

SBT, I think you've mentioned these things in the past, sorry if I ask the same questions.
We all know that MB doesn't "work" with people actively addicted, right? I believe Dr. Harley states that the addiction tends to trump efforts to build a relationship for most addicts.
So that leads us back to the Plan B/legal separation argument.
If you can't implement separation before it is somehow mandated in the Divorce Decree, then you may have to wait until the divorce is final, she is on her own, and she hits rock bottom (hopefully not bringing the whole brood with her). Then she MIGHT be interested in working with you towards the dream of an intact family.

I still say that listening to the radio show (and perhaps going through some of this at least by email to Dr. Bill and Joyce) would be tremendously beneficial to you.

opt