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#2718229 04/08/13 12:12 PM
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I've been reading through most of Dr. Harley's advice. So here's the background info: My husband and I got married after dating for six months - three of those months he was at bootcamp. It was pretty much get married or break-up at that point. In retrospect probably not the best decision. At the time we were 18 and 19. Three years ago. After we got married I got pregnant right away and my husband had 4 more months of training during which we could talk on the phone sometimes, but only saw each other twice. When he was done with that training we were stationed 7 hours away from where our families were.

Within a week or two of moving down there I realized he was secretly watching porn. I told him I was absolutely not okay with that. At that point his job still kept him away most of the time. Two weeks after I gave birth he had to go to training for five weeks on the other side of the country. Some time after he got back I found out he was again watching porn and secretly talking to an old female friend from high school who he kept under a guy's name in his phone.

After that we started going to marriage counseling. The counselor basically said I was overreacting, that he needed more freedom, sex, and privacy. After a while we just stopped going because it wasn't helping. At this time I was going through postpartum psychosis so I was having substantial memory loss. I saw a doctor for this who told me since my daughter was over six months that it wasn't postpartum related anymore (which I never believed, but really gave up looking for help). We started seeing another therapist who again told me his porn issues were my fault for not having sex with him enough. By now I had absolutely no trust for him and half the time could barely remember who I was even married to because of the depression and memory loss. I can't remember a lot of what happened, but I know there were a lot of arguments and he was gone a lot.

So this past summer he got a medical separation for anxiety and asthma that he developed during training. We moved back to our home town in June. Shortly after, both my great grandparents died and we had to have a cat I had since middle school put to sleep for congestive heart failure. Around this time I noticed he was looking up old female friends on Facebook and looking at pictures of girls about as naked as they could be on Facebook without getting kicked off. At this time we had a porn-blocker but I guess it didn't recognize it on FB.

Around this time I also had a miscarriage (possibly from all the stress of moving, financial issues, the other deaths, etc). This is when I decided to read "His Needs, Her Needs" I took the porn blocker off since he said it made him feel like I was controlling him. But it still records the history and he cannot delete it.

So here we are now, I'm 4 months pregnant again. And he comes to me saying he was too young to get married and he should be allowed to watch porn and have female friends if he wants to because there's nothing wrong with it. So I started looking for something by Dr. Harley saying these things are not okay. I found what I was looking for, but my husband is clearly not convinced. He has a history of saying he agrees with something even if he doesn't, which makes trusting him impossible.

Basically we're to where he's saying he'll stay because people will think bad of him for leaving and it would be too expensive financially and bad for our kids. But I don't what him to stay because he thinks he has to. Because that's also not fair. It's like he wants to stay because it's easier to sneak around behind my back than it is to start over and pay child support.

After a couple days of arguing about this he said it wasn't having a family he didn't like (i.e. our kids), it's just me because I'm always in a bad mood. But I feel like this amounts to him not wanting me to get upset about any of the things he screws up - basically keep my mouth shut and let him do whatever.

He's read most of the same stuff by Dr. Harley that I have. But I don't think he is really enthusiastic about actually doing any of it. I've tried meeting his needs, but he isn't honest about what he wants. And eventually I needs my needs met too. So I don't know what to do anymore.

I don't think I can trust him as long as he believes porn and female friends aren't a problem and as long as he keeps lying to me (about anything). Therapy is just making it worse.

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Originally Posted by MsFur
I've been reading through most of Dr. Harley's advice. So here's the background info: My husband and I got married after dating for six months - three of those months he was at bootcamp. It was pretty much get married or break-up at that point. In retrospect probably not the best decision. At the time we were 18 and 19. Three years ago. After we got married I got pregnant right away and my husband had 4 more months of training during which we could talk on the phone sometimes, but only saw each other twice. When he was done with that training we were stationed 7 hours away from where our families were.

Within a week or two of moving down there I realized he was secretly watching porn. I told him I was absolutely not okay with that. At that point his job still kept him away most of the time. Two weeks after I gave birth he had to go to training for five weeks on the other side of the country. Some time after he got back I found out he was again watching porn and secretly talking to an old female friend from high school who he kept under a guy's name in his phone.

After that we started going to marriage counseling. The counselor basically said I was overreacting, that he needed more freedom, sex, and privacy. After a while we just stopped going because it wasn't helping. At this time I was going through postpartum psychosis so I was having substantial memory loss. I saw a doctor for this who told me since my daughter was over six months that it wasn't postpartum related anymore (which I never believed, but really gave up looking for help). We started seeing another therapist who again told me his porn issues were my fault for not having sex with him enough. By now I had absolutely no trust for him and half the time could barely remember who I was even married to because of the depression and memory loss. I can't remember a lot of what happened, but I know there were a lot of arguments and he was gone a lot.

So this past summer he got a medical separation for anxiety and asthma that he developed during training. We moved back to our home town in June. Shortly after, both my great grandparents died and we had to have a cat I had since middle school put to sleep for congestive heart failure. Around this time I noticed he was looking up old female friends on Facebook and looking at pictures of girls about as naked as they could be on Facebook without getting kicked off. At this time we had a porn-blocker but I guess it didn't recognize it on FB.

Around this time I also had a miscarriage (possibly from all the stress of moving, financial issues, the other deaths, etc). This is when I decided to read "His Needs, Her Needs" I took the porn blocker off since he said it made him feel like I was controlling him. But it still records the history and he cannot delete it.

So here we are now, I'm 4 months pregnant again. And he comes to me saying he was too young to get married and he should be allowed to watch porn and have female friends if he wants to because there's nothing wrong with it. So I started looking for something by Dr. Harley saying these things are not okay. I found what I was looking for, but my husband is clearly not convinced. He has a history of saying he agrees with something even if he doesn't, which makes trusting him impossible.

Basically we're to where he's saying he'll stay because people will think bad of him for leaving and it would be too expensive financially and bad for our kids. But I don't what him to stay because he thinks he has to. Because that's also not fair. It's like he wants to stay because it's easier to sneak around behind my back than it is to start over and pay child support.

After a couple days of arguing about this he said it wasn't having a family he didn't like (i.e. our kids), it's just me because I'm always in a bad mood. But I feel like this amounts to him not wanting me to get upset about any of the things he screws up - basically keep my mouth shut and let him do whatever.

He's read most of the same stuff by Dr. Harley that I have. But I don't think he is really enthusiastic about actually doing any of it. I've tried meeting his needs, but he isn't honest about what he wants. And eventually I needs my needs met too. So I don't know what to do anymore.

I don't think I can trust him as long as he believes porn and female friends aren't a problem and as long as he keeps lying to me (about anything). Therapy is just making it worse.
Welcome to MB, MsFur. I am sorry to hear about these event sin your marriage.

You've identified the porn use and female friendships as major problems in your marriage, and you are absolutely correct in your diagnosis. Your two therapists do not know what they are talking about, frankly, to tell you that the problem is your attitude. They have done a great deal of harm to your marriage in trying to persuade you to accept these things and in not confronting your H on his destructive behaviour.

In your final sentence you say that therapy is just making it worse, and you are spot on. Instead of paying a single penny more to these "experts", please fire them and tell your H that you will not be dealing with them again.

Then call the Harley coaching centre - there is a link in the red area at the top of this page - and book a telephone appointment to speak to either Dr Harley's son, Steven Harley, or his daughter, Dr Jennifer Chalmers. They will speak to you alone at first. They will give you advice on how to bring your H on board with the MB programme, which, if you can persuade him to use it, will transform your marriage. If you can just get him on the phone to speak to one of them they will make a great difference.

One thing to consider, though is that his "chatting" has extended to an affair, either online or in person. Can you see what he posts on FB? Also, does he have access to another PC that you cannot monitor, such as at work?


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I can see everything he puts on Facebook. But he thinks that by me checking his accounts and his phone is an invasion of his privacy. And he tries to convince me of this by asking how I'd feel if he looked through my phone. I really truly don't care if he looks through my phone or Facebook.

We recently got smartphones which is stressful for me because I know he can access whatever on there and it's more difficult to monitor because I'm not sure how everything works.

I also forgot to mention that while he was still in the military I found on his email that he had signed up for at least three dating sites on which he claimed to be married but wanting just sex. I found them as soon as he had gotten the confirmation of the accounts being created so I don't know if it went any further. But for months he swore it was a friend who made them as a prank and said I was crazy for even suspecting he'd do something like that. He even went so far as to bring a friend to our house and falsely confess and apologize for making them. However, I said okay if you made them then what was the passwords (it was a password my husband uses frequently). The guy didn't know so I said okay, well thanks for apologizing so the idiot could leave. But later I told my husband I'm not a moron, I know he made those sites.

Sorry I forgot about that. That happened when the postpartum was at it's peak and I think I try to block it out so I don't strangle him. Although I had mentioned this to our second therapist, she never addressed it.

More recently I found something similar on his email and he claimed it must have been his dad who made it. I haven't decided if I believe it or not. It doesn't make sense that his dad would suddenly start using his email. Especially since he never had before and him and his dad rarely even talk.

I question whether he has access to another computer or something. I wouldn't necessarily know. When he was in the military he had access to computers and had a lot of time unaccounted for. Now he works closely with his new boss and doesn't have access to computers that I know of. But he does have a phone and with his attitude, what's stopping him from having secret emails, Facebooks, and who knows what else.

As for the phone coaching - the problem is that he will act like he agrees with everything the therapist or I say. And then turn around and do the opposite. It's hard to convince someone of something when they say they are on board when they really aren't.

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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Wow. The ironic thing is that my husband is also Mexican. And my dad lives in a trailer too. Like the girl in the radio segments. I really don't have anyone nearby that I could stay with. The only thing I could think of is if he went to stay with his mom or dad (who think he was dumb for getting married so young and think I'm irrational and controlling). My husband's "friends" basically tell him the same thing too and keep telling him he needs to go out with them and have a guy's night.

I've noticed the depression and fatigue issues as well. But it's hard to tell if that's from the marriage problems or the pregnancies. Or both.

I have talked to my parents about this also. But they're divorced and give me the same advice as the therapists we had did.

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Welcome to MB! First off .. I dont think you were too young. I married my wife at 19 also ... and im now 34 .. and we have been together since 15 and 16. SO its possible to make this work ... dont let your youth discourage you. Infact .. Dr.harley and his wife married at a similar age.

You are ABSOLUTLEY right about the harm porn does.

Check out these articles on porn

Addiction to porn #1 http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5050a_qa.html

Addiction to porn #2 http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5050b_qa.html

In regards to "privacy" you are his partner .. you have EVERY right to know what he does .. everything he does effects you. THe only privacy in marriage is when your on the can. Everything else should be an open book... afterall you PROMISED to cherish and be together through thick and thin ... you must know EVERYHTING about eachother. How can you make any decisions without having all the facts about each other?

You say he signed up to some dating sites? Wants privacy? Opposite sex friends?? Gives you the "how would you feel if i snooped in your phone" speech? he is just JUSTIFYING his innapropriate behavior. How would he feel if he seen you on dating sites and being friends with men or if the role was reversed .. i bet he would be hopping mad.

You hsould move this to the surviving an affair section .. click NOTIFY and have the mods move it .. you'll get a better response there.

I think there is more to this than porn. Especailly sice he had or has been traveling and away from you for long periods of time. I sense he is full of entitlement. You can get some spyware on his phone .. and put a keylogger on he PC to get some better goods ... history on the PC can so easily be avoided. Check out some of the great snooping tools on the operation inveistigate forum. I have posted a few work arounds for reading deleted history and such .. plus there is a wack of other info you would find really helpful.

Read all you can ... and vent here. We will help keep you on track an sane. You are not insane .. your hubby is being dangerous to your marriage.

MNG


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Your depression is more than likely stemming from the stress your husband is causing you and from your unhappiness with your marriage. Your pregnancy and mothering is likely causing the fatigue.

You have received terrible advice from your counselors and from your family and friends. Your husband's independent behavior is a breeding ground for an affair, if he hasn't already had one by now. He's trolling for them actively while gaslighting you. This kind of "advice" is why we on MB recommend avoiding MC. They are mostly destructive for marriages.

Most women are terribly upset about their husband's porn-viewing and rightfully so. They don't want to be compared to some young women selected for their sexual charms, and airbrushed besides.

Young marriages can work out great IF both people are willing to follow the rules that make for a great marriage: the Policy of Joint Agreement, the Policy of Radical Honesty and the rest which you can read about it Basic Concepts.

Your husband is going to have to make some major changes in order to turn this around.

This is what it will take:

Transparency and integrated lifestyle: share all passwords, exchange phones immediately at any time you ask, account for all time and money spent; no nights apart

Extraordinary Precautions that you create and are non-negotiable. They are instituted to keep your marriage safe. These are YOUR boundaries to protect you from being in an unsafe marriage. To start with: no OS friendships EVER

He would agree to the Policy of Joint Agreement and work on restoring your marriage. MB has a great plan that will create a great marriage, one hundred percent guaranteed, if BOTH spouses follow it. Using MB, following all the steps, will result in a passionate, romantic, SAFE marriage.

He must agree to ALL of the above steps.

Have you sat down and explained to your husband that you are very unhappy in your marriage?

Marriage is a relationship of extraordinary care, in which we do whatever it takes to protect each other from our worst instincts.

If porn is a problem, then every single avenue he uses to access it or the dating websites, anything that is repulsive to you, must be cut off. The smart phone is without Internet access or exchanged for a "dumb" phone. All the conditions must be changed to avoid the independent behavior.

His uncaring behavior is hurting your marriage and causing you to suffer.

Do you have a job? Do you have any place you could go? Even if it's far away? Can you put together a plan?

Do you have any good friends whom you can lean on for support?




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Okay. Thank you everyone for the advice and support. To answer some questions: We no longer spend nights apart. The nights we spent apart previously were because he was in the military. He worked in an all male unit. However, there was a week he had to spend on a ship that had other units and no cell phone service (his unit in general discouraged outside contact during work or training which was an added strain on our marriage - also confirmed with other wives in the unit). While he was on the ship he told me he talked to some girl in the Navy about some other guy in his unit. But I don't fully believe he told me everything and I was upset he talked to her at all. Especially since we had no contact most of the time and they had a lot of down time and freedom to do whatever. He also had co-ed training for a month right after we got married. At the time I trusted him completely. But then I learned he is obsessed with getting attention from other women.

We only have one laptop that we both share. Generally I have said I prefer him not to use it when I am not in the same room. I have K9 Web Protection on this laptop that records all history and cannot be deleted without the password, which he doesn't have. I had it on his phone also. However, apparently when I had fallen asleep one afternoon (I was having really bad allergies and took Benadryl, which knocked me out) "our daughter" did something to reset his phone which took off all apps. She does do some crazy stuff to our electronics, and I'm not sure he'd go through all that trouble to get the history tracking thing off. But with it on there he says I'm treating him like a child and basically resents me and tries to find ways around it.

I totally understand all the principles presented by Dr. Harley. No OS friends, porn, etc. Meet emotional needs, avoid love busters. And all that. I'm completely 100% on board with all that. The problem is that he's not.

We have talked about this a lot. In fact, the OS friends and porn thing has been an on-going disagreement. Even after reading what Dr. Harley says and listening to the radio segments listed in a previous post, he STILL stubbornly thinks he should have the "right" to be friends with whoever he wants - especially girls. And he thinks the privacy thing is extreme. He basically reluctantly agrees to follow those rules, but sees it as a huge sacrifice. This leads me to not be able to trust him when I'm not around. If he desires to have female friends and thinks there is nothing fundamentally wrong with it then how can I trust him to make the right decision when he thinks he can get away with something? I basically can't. Especially with his track record.

I know there is the separation option. However, we're set to be moving in 3 weeks, and I'm pregnant. I do have a job, but it's part-time (I'm an online tutor with a tutoring company). I can only do this job while someone else watches my daughter and everyone I know wants to get paid for it. Where I live is extremely expensive and we are cutting it close. Also, my husband missed most of my pregnancy with our first. I don't want to do this by myself again, you know? Because there is the option he could stay at his mom's. Or with a friend. However, none of the people we know are supportive of our marriage. Places for rent are so expensive around here that him renting a place of his own is not an option. Plus we only have one vehicle right now which would leave one of us without a car all the time. I also don't see a separation helping. Then how do we get time to work on our problems? And I don't think it will help him change his mind about having female friends. If anything it would probably encourage him to have female friends. Since our friends and family think the no OS friends thing is ridiculous. (And yes, all of those friends and family members are either single or divorced - but apparently their opinions are more important to my husband than our marriage stability).

Okay. So my main dilemma now is, how do I get him to move from reluctantly or passively agreeing to enthusiastically agreeing?

In my opinion, he wants the freedom to have female friends because he misses the fun he had in high school and since I've been so tired from an insane toddler and this pregnancy I haven't been doing very good at meeting his needs. Obviously his #1 need is out of the question lately with his attitude. Can't really do that enthusiastically when I'm insane with frustration. But his main complaint has been recreational companionship. We've been working on that. It's been tough because we've been busier than usual, but we have been trying to do more and I've been trying to be in a better mood (which is really hard right now). He says I do good with the domestic support (I don't think I do, but whatever), and the admiration (again, I don't think so, but what's important is his perspective). He says I do good with the attractive spouse one also. So my main focus is the recreational companionship and maybe if he can meet some of my needs I can be more willing with the other need.

My top need is the honesty/openness. Maybe because it seems that's what I get the least. I kind of put the agreeing with the no OS friends or porn in family commitment because I interpreted it as I need to feel he's sticking around and not in to anyone else. He does okay with the affection and conversation. Financials are okay, but I feel like I can't trust him with money because he loves to spend. So he feels I restrict him by asking him not to buy things without us discussing it first (even though I discuss everything with him first).

uhg! This is so frustrating. It is so simple if only he would just really agree with it.

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Originally Posted by MsFur
Okay. Thank you everyone for the advice and support. To answer some questions: We no longer spend nights apart. The nights we spent apart previously were because he was in the military. He worked in an all male unit. However, there was a week he had to spend on a ship that had other units and no cell phone service (his unit in general discouraged outside contact during work or training which was an added strain on our marriage - also confirmed with other wives in the unit). While he was on the ship he told me he talked to some girl in the Navy about some other guy in his unit. But I don't fully believe he told me everything and I was upset he talked to her at all. Especially since we had no contact most of the time and they had a lot of down time and freedom to do whatever. He also had co-ed training for a month right after we got married. At the time I trusted him completely. But then I learned he is obsessed with getting attention from other women.

We only have one laptop that we both share. Generally I have said I prefer him not to use it when I am not in the same room. I have K9 Web Protection on this laptop that records all history and cannot be deleted without the password, which he doesn't have. I had it on his phone also. However, apparently when I had fallen asleep one afternoon (I was having really bad allergies and took Benadryl, which knocked me out) "our daughter" did something to reset his phone which took off all apps. She does do some crazy stuff to our electronics, and I'm not sure he'd go through all that trouble to get the history tracking thing off. But with it on there he says I'm treating him like a child and basically resents me and tries to find ways around it.

I totally understand all the principles presented by Dr. Harley. No OS friends, porn, etc. Meet emotional needs, avoid love busters. And all that. I'm completely 100% on board with all that. The problem is that he's not.

We have talked about this a lot. In fact, the OS friends and porn thing has been an on-going disagreement. Even after reading what Dr. Harley says and listening to the radio segments listed in a previous post, he STILL stubbornly thinks he should have the "right" to be friends with whoever he wants - especially girls. And he thinks the privacy thing is extreme. He basically reluctantly agrees to follow those rules, but sees it as a huge sacrifice. This leads me to not be able to trust him when I'm not around. If he desires to have female friends and thinks there is nothing fundamentally wrong with it then how can I trust him to make the right decision when he thinks he can get away with something? I basically can't. Especially with his track record.

I know there is the separation option. However, we're set to be moving in 3 weeks, and I'm pregnant. I do have a job, but it's part-time (I'm an online tutor with a tutoring company). I can only do this job while someone else watches my daughter and everyone I know wants to get paid for it. Where I live is extremely expensive and we are cutting it close. Also, my husband missed most of my pregnancy with our first. I don't want to do this by myself again, you know? Because there is the option he could stay at his mom's. Or with a friend. However, none of the people we know are supportive of our marriage. Places for rent are so expensive around here that him renting a place of his own is not an option. Plus we only have one vehicle right now which would leave one of us without a car all the time. I also don't see a separation helping. Then how do we get time to work on our problems? And I don't think it will help him change his mind about having female friends. If anything it would probably encourage him to have female friends. Since our friends and family think the no OS friends thing is ridiculous. (And yes, all of those friends and family members are either single or divorced - but apparently their opinions are more important to my husband than our marriage stability).

Okay. So my main dilemma now is, how do I get him to move from reluctantly or passively agreeing to enthusiastically agreeing?

In my opinion, he wants the freedom to have female friends because he misses the fun he had in high school and since I've been so tired from an insane toddler and this pregnancy I haven't been doing very good at meeting his needs. Obviously his #1 need is out of the question lately with his attitude. Can't really do that enthusiastically when I'm insane with frustration. But his main complaint has been recreational companionship. We've been working on that. It's been tough because we've been busier than usual, but we have been trying to do more and I've been trying to be in a better mood (which is really hard right now). He says I do good with the domestic support (I don't think I do, but whatever), and the admiration (again, I don't think so, but what's important is his perspective). He says I do good with the attractive spouse one also. So my main focus is the recreational companionship and maybe if he can meet some of my needs I can be more willing with the other need.

My top need is the honesty/openness. Maybe because it seems that's what I get the least. I kind of put the agreeing with the no OS friends or porn in family commitment because I interpreted it as I need to feel he's sticking around and not in to anyone else. He does okay with the affection and conversation. Financials are okay, but I feel like I can't trust him with money because he loves to spend. So he feels I restrict him by asking him not to buy things without us discussing it first (even though I discuss everything with him first).

uhg! This is so frustrating. It is so simple if only he would just really agree with it.

You can always email Dr. Harley for his response by shooting an email to mbradio@marragebuilders.com. Include your mailing address, because they will send you a free book if they answer your email on air. Include your phone number if you want to consider being a caller.

The problem is that if he doesn't agree to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement and the rest of the MB policies, you are in for a miserable time. You will lose your love for your husband. If he starts having affairs, you will suffer even more and your health will likely start to deteriorate.

You don't have to separate right now; just have a plan in mind if he refuses to cooperate.

You can read up on Plan A, which is being the best wife you can be, while keeping the issues on the front burner. Always speak respectfully to him but don't let up on the main issues you are having with him right now.

Continue to snoop...quietly.

I had many of the same problems you are having. My H was never a partner with me in marriage. He made all financial decisions independently, he flirted and had OS friends, used porn, had 2 affairs. My life with him was miserable for years at a time. I believed in "unconditional love" and I didn't have a place like MB to turn to. You don't want this for yourself, do you? It was only after his last A that I discovered MB and did Plan A while giving him an ultimatum. He would lose me if he refused to be a partner with me in marriage.

And he did, reluctantly at first, join me in MB. He agrees now that it has made him a better, much happier man. It changed our M from a miserable existence for me living a man who didn't care about me to one where my H is deeply in love with me and cares greatly AND protects our marriage by following ALL the EPs I have set up. Actually, we both follow all EPs.

Do you have a degree? It's a good idea to start building a plan of escape should you need it. This will give you options other than staying in a bad marriage and suffering.

MB is all about great marriages. Great marriages take TWO people, although one person can get it started.

Porn and no OS friends are protections for the marriage. Family commitment is spending time with the family, especially in teaching values to the children. Described in more detail Here


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MsFur,

Your husband wants to sleep with other women while staying married to you. That`s his desire for female friends. Men do not care to talk about recreational things with women without, at a minimum, admiration in return. Men find us... rather wordy! So call a spade a spade. Now, what to do about that.

Part of the problem in retaliating this, is even if he refuses to stop - you aren`t going to leave him, no matter what he does. He knows you will not separate. In other words - he`s calling your bluff.

Part of recovering your marriage, if you choose to do so (staying with him does not equate a recovered marriage), then you will have to show him that you actually mean business. So far, he knows you do not. He knows you want him to change, but he knows he does not have to actually do it in order to keep you in the house.

You should have this thread moved to Surviving an Affair. It is unlikely that he has not already slept with other women. Married men do not go on dating sites for a prank, I think you know this already.

The sooner you accept how bad this has really gotten, the better equipped you will be to fight it.

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I have four more classes to do until I get to student teaching. After that I'll have BS in elementary education and can get a teaching certificate. At this point, I've discussed some things with him and it really seems like he doesn't care whether or not we separate (which to him is the same as a divorce). I don't think he'd care if I left other than the fact that it would hurt him financially.

I'll be taking all this advice in to consideration. I'm just aggravated because it seems extremely stupid that he'd rather be divorced or living miserably than to be happy. I know staying married doesn't equal a successful marriage.

The idea of him having done something with someone else basically makes me feel like there is no purpose in trying. Everyone basically said it wouldn't work from the beginning and it is infuriating that it could work, but he just doesn't care for it to work.

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Originally Posted by MsFur
I have four more classes to do until I get to student teaching. After that I'll have BS in elementary education and can get a teaching certificate. At this point, I've discussed some things with him and it really seems like he doesn't care whether or not we separate (which to him is the same as a divorce). I don't think he'd care if I left other than the fact that it would hurt him financially.

I'll be taking all this advice in to consideration. I'm just aggravated because it seems extremely stupid that he'd rather be divorced or living miserably than to be happy. I know staying married doesn't equal a successful marriage.

The idea of him having done something with someone else basically makes me feel like there is no purpose in trying. Everyone basically said it wouldn't work from the beginning and it is infuriating that it could work, but he just doesn't care for it to work.

I'm so sorry. frown It IS aggravating, heart-breaking, and stupid when a spouse just seems happy to toss everything away. But you never know how this will play out. If you can manage a really good Plan A, then separate, leaving your H a love letter, you can know that you did all you could. A separation is risky, because it can lead to a divorce. But the alternative is a loveless marriage.

Do you have the books Love Busters and HNHN? They will help you with a great Plan A while you work on finishing your degree and prepare your plan.


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I don't have the Love Busters book. But I did read about it on the site and I think I have a pretty good understanding of it. I will probably go read through it again though. Thanks everyone for the support. Seems like any where else I turn people are unsupportive and destructive.

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Okay. What if my husband thinks my trying to convince him to use marriage builders is a disrespectful judgement? It's really hard to be patient and listen to his side when it seems like his perspective is what got us in to this situation. In his mi d he would have been perfectly happy being friends with whoever and watching porn as long as I didn't "make such a big deal" out of it.

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He can't use a MB concept like DJ when he doesn't believe in the MB philosophy.

The MB concept of a happy marriage is a marriage of care and protection. It is a marriage where you avoid doing anything that would cause harm or unhappiness to your spouse.

In his mind a perfect marriage would be one where he could do whatever he wanted regardless of who it hurt.

What kind of marriage do you want to have? Are you hurt by his actions? If so is that where you want to be?

You have to decide what you want. You can only control you, so ... do you stay and take his abuse?


Last edited by MrAlias; 04/10/13 08:30 AM.

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Originally Posted by MsFur
What if my husband thinks my trying to convince him to use marriage builders is a disrespectful judgement?

Again you have to see this for what it is. He wants to keep you in your place so he can do as he pleases.

I'm a huge proponent for making a M work. But there has to be some basic principles in a person in order for it to work. If he isn't going to change then I say it is time for you to plan your departure.


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Originally Posted by MsFur
Okay. What if my husband thinks my trying to convince him to use marriage builders is a disrespectful judgement? It's really hard to be patient and listen to his side when it seems like his perspective is what got us in to this situation. In his mi d he would have been perfectly happy being friends with whoever and watching porn as long as I didn't "make such a big deal" out of it.

Your husband doesn't understand what a disrespectful judgment ism since he doesn't understand Marriage Builders. And he doesn't understand the benefit to HIM of using MB.

I've heard Dr. Harley say many times that if one person in the marriage is doing whatever he/she wants to, behaving as though the other person doesn't exist, that marriage will be very unhappy. If a spouse is thoughtless and acting in his/her own interests at the expense of the other spouse, expecting the other spouse to suffer so he/she can benefit, it will be a very unhappy marriage. This is what your husband is doing when he demands to be allowed any friend he desires, even any female friendship, and viewing pornography against your wishes.

When we marry, we give up the right to do whatever we please and instead follow the Policies of Joint Agreement and Radical Honesty, so that we are considerate of the other.

The first way is a sure way to disaster; the latter is the foundation of a good marriage.

Here's a link to MelodyLane's excellent thread on selling MB to your spouse: Here

It may be easier to prepare a letter for your spouse to read through, so your emotions don't get the better of you. Make it non-judgmental and highlight all the benefits to HIM of following MB.




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Here is an excellent thread started by PepperBand about the book by Dr. Harley called Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders .

He discusses how relationships work at each level. It's a very interesting and enlightening read.


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I really like the Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders thing. I can see how I am always looking at the long term for everything. With disciplining the kids, fixing stuff, etc. It's as simple as when something gets broken or is no longer serving him he is quick to say let's get rid of it instead of thinking about another possible use or trying to fix it. i.e. laptop screen gets broken - trash it and buy a new laptop. My solution - figure out how we can fix the screen. To him, that's more work than it's worth and it's not even that much work.

I'm wondering if that comes from growing up where if something got broken they'd throw it out and get a new one or do without for a while. It transfers to relationships too. If it's broken and it takes too long to fix it then trash it and find a new one. Seems like a recurring theme with a lot of people I know. I always found that a strange way to think. Maybe because my dad is so cheap and would never re-buy anything, lol.

As for selling him the MB's, he usually says he agrees with the concept, but doesn't seem willing to actually do it himself. He thinks it's a sacrifice. And last night told me he doesn't think I'll ever be able to meet his needs because I don't have enough energy and can't keep up with him. Although I think if he did more crap around the house I'd have more energy and he'd have less - especially if he had to figure out financial stuff which takes a lot of my energy. I think I'll have him do that from now on. I think it's part of the family commitment thing - him being part of making decisions instead of me deciding and then having to explain it all to him. No wonder I'm so frickin tired all the time.

But he thinks I can't meet his needs and that if I "take away OS friends" then I'll take away a bunch of other stuff. 1) He doesn't have OS friends anyway as far as I know. 2) We've been married almost 3 years and it's been the same arguments over and over. He thinks if it's not this then it'll be something else. But what I'm trying to get across here is that I we did the POJA then there would be much fewer arguments. He's thinks he's missing out on things in life. I told him it's because he's not happy. Happy people don't feel like they missed out on anything. And to be happy you need a fulfilling relationship - which is why people act so crazy and desperate over relationships. Even teens recognize the importance instinctively.

I'm not sure what to ever think of what he says because he will act like he agrees one day and I swear he goes and talks to "friends" and the bully him around saying I'm being controlling. And if I say I don't like those friends he says I just don't want him to have any friends. I just wish he'd choose better friends and not let them influence him so much.

Anyway, I guess I'll have him read the Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders thing and let him decide which one he wants to be or thinks he is. And keep trying to sell the MB's. I'm just getting exhausted from arguing over something that should be so simple.

Different states of marriage right? He's in withdraw and I'm trying to pull him back through conflict to get to intimacy.

Meanwhile, I am working on situating things so I at least have the option to leave if I need to. We're in some financial instability at the moment, but I know it will go back to normal in a few months. The plan is that by tax season next year I should have enough saved up to leave if things are not improving. Once I'm done my student teaching next spring I'll have the option of getting a full-time teaching job and I'll be able to make ends meet. It's not what I prefer to do. But I suppose if things aren't improving I won't have much choice. Around May next year our lease will also be up at where we're about to move to. So a lot of options open up then. I guess he has better now and then to figure out what he's going to do and prove it. And he knows that. Not sure he believes I'd leave (he says he does, but I don't think he believes it honestly).

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Don't argue with your husband about anything! It will not help to sell him on the MB program and will serve to further undermine your marriage.

For the time being, it's best if you do all the reading for yourself, so you can learn. My H was open to the concept of Buyers, Renters, & Freeloaders only AFTER we were well on the road to recovery. It wasn't until he really understand the good behind MB that he was ready to learn the dynamics of the relationship we had in our earlier years of marriage.

For now, keep these three phrases on the tip of your tongue:

1.) Honey, how would you feel about (fixing the screen door, taking out the trash, giving our child a bath?)

Never demand he do anything. Always ask how he would feel about doing the task you would like. If he says he doesn't want to do it, no anger or recrimination, okay? Remember, the default condition is not do anything until you both agree. And the default condition is not meant to be comfortable.

2.) Honey, I would love it if you could (kiss me, hold me, talk with me, etc.)

3.) Honey, it really bothers me when you (watch porn, leave your clothes on the floor, etc.)

Remember that you are modeling MB for your H. Don't threaten or even talk about separation.

Keep in mind your objective - to be a partner with your H in your marriage. Withdrawing love units won't accomplish this objective.

Try your best to meet his emotional needs. The top two ENs for most men are recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. This does not mean you have to ignore your own ENs; you can try guiding him into meeting yours, a step at a time.

Start a plan in which you make time to be with your H doing enjoyable things for a minimum of 15 hours a week by yourselves.

Keep this up while formulating and accomplishing your plan of escape, should it become necessary.




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