Hello,

I was here in the early 2000's. H had major porn problem and I almost left him. We went through MB, he did some of his own counseling. Major promise was if that if he had a slip he would 1) Get help 2) let me know. It wasn't that he'd never fail, but that'd he'd be aware of the signs and do something about it. I gave him an out, said he should leave if that was what he wanted, we had no kids, had only been married three years, there's the door... He swore he loved me more than anything, he wanted our marriage...

I generally had to initiate sex throughout. I didn't enjoy that, and said I wanted to switch that up a few years ago, that I wanted him in charge of our sex life. I'm a frisky girl, I don't turn him down... I stopped initiating and our sex life fizzled.

I was suspicious, so asked him some questions last week and he admitted to masturbating again, he swears no porn.

I'm sitting here starving for affection and sex and he's masturbating. He broke the one promise I hung my marriage on... He didn't have a little porn problem.

If I leave him he's ruined my life.
He's stolen my 30's.
We own a business together that I cannot run without him.
He's crashed my retirement.

We spend 22-23 hours a day together.
He's my best friend.
ALL of our recreational time is together.
ALL of our hobbies are together. We get along so well.
He's devastated every single corner of my life.

He's found a mens support group.
He's found a cognitive behavioral therapist.

I've read here for YEARS... I know love can return, but I feel like such an idiot. Someone give me some hope.

There's no accountability I can enforce here IF there's really no porn. I cant shower with him.

I feel like he never opens up to me, he's been telling me he knows it and he feels he can, that he knows I deserve it. I've been starving out here.

I feel like he'd already be gone if we had separate jobs. That I'm making the wrong decision for the wrong reason. But everything else is so good. Every time my head gets clear I break down again. What am I missing?

Thank you.

Married 13 years
No children

What was your posting name in 2000?

As for masturbation Dr Harley says it should not be allowed in marriage.
Each spouse should receive sexual fulfillment from each other.
Sexual fulfillment is agreed through the Policy of Joint Agreement

Hi Brenda. When you say you went through Marriage Builders, what do you mean exactly? You went through the seminar?

How and where does he view porn? When and where does he masturbate if you are together all this time?

And what are his reasons for not seeking SF from you? Does he find you attractive? What is the obstacle?

Do you have a keylogger on his computer?

He says no porn now. Just masturbation. I don't know if I believe him.

I didn't ask for details. I'm assuming in the shower. He explained how he'd sneak time when we were apart when this went down the first time. It takes very little time. I can leave the house just a few minutes before him (we drive separate cars), go to the store, he'd do it when I was in the shower, etc. When there's a will, there's a way.

He puts too much pressure on initiating SF. Everything has to be 'right'. I tell him to keep it fun and light hearted...

He says he finds me very attractive. I'm in very good shape. He is not. He's at his heaviest. He's stuck in his head. He admits he's probably been depressed lately which is also why he jumped on the CB Therapist and Men's Support Group. He's begging me not to leave him.

We did the written MB. The forms and worksheets. The rules: time together, lots of RC, no opposite sex friends. I cant beg Openness out of him, I've listed it as a top need.

My Bank has been pretty low lately, which prompted this conversation. He's been gaining weight, surfing the couch, blowing off the SF...

Now it's empty.

How would he usually view porn? On the computer?

And how does he explain why he would rather masturbate than have sex with you?

How much of this time together is spent giving each other undivided attention, ie: meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment?

And what are his top ENs? Do you know?

Have all the conditions that allowed the porn been eliminated?

You SHOULD get the details of the masturbation. But when you listen to him, do not get angry. You want to encourage honesty and openness, so you will need to control your reaction to information that he gives you.

When you make love with your H, does he have performance problems, such as PE or ED? When a man has had the habit of masturbation for years, it changes his sexual reflexes, not to mention his desire for sex with his spouse.

Some men find that masturbation turns out to be a lot easier than making love to a woman. To make love with a woman means a man needs to be affectionate and conversational, meeting the ENs of his wife. Sometimes a man would rather avoid all this "work" and gratify himself.

There is simply no place in marriage for masturbation and he needs to just stop it, practicing radical honesty with you when he has the desire to do so. At the same time, he needs to be able to come to you for SF.

It works like a two-way street, though. In order for you to want to meet his need for SF, he needs to create an environment that shows his care for you. He will need to learn to meet your ENs, such as affection and conversation.

If you are very much bothered by his weight gain, then you should start exercising with him and encouraging him to lose weight.

IF he's using porn it would be on his cell phone. The home lap top and office system is monitored. (We own our own company, I monitor the office computers) He says he's not using porn, he just masturbated because it was an emergency. I was 'available' it was an emergency because he's too awkward to initiate SF with me.

He's says he's awkward and uncomfortable.
He says everything has to be just right and he get's to hung up in his head and it's easier to masturbate.

We spend tons on time on RC and conversation. Not so much on affection or SF. We have many hobbies in common and can keep ourselves distracted by those. Very distracted. Busy, busy, busy... Fun, fun, our life is a big party. Everyone is jealous. Travel, hobbies, vacations, big home remodel, tons to do.

He says it's not me, it's him.

I say, I'm tired of this BS. I am very hurt. Again. He agrees I didn't do anything wrong here. I have asked for affection and openness. He's said he'd try. He's introverted and quiet. He's happy I'm involved with his hobbies.

He said his top needs were, in no specific order:
SF
RC
Admiration
Conversation
DS

I've probably been worst at Admiration since the 2003 blowout. He doesn't finish his projects, he's gained weight, too much surfing on the internet, the lazy attitude towards SF... too much TV - I've lost some respect. We've talked about his LB's and he'd start to get his act together, but he'd fall back into his funk.

He seems really shaken up right now, but do we need to do this every 10 years? I have to get neglected, watch him like a hawk, ask 20 questions and find out that something is wrong? When does he get to be in charge of him?

I'm not here because I'm afraid he used porn. Please don't lecture me on why porn is wrong. You are singing to the choir.

I on the verge of HATING him because I KNOW he lied about masturbating for months. He SWORE on a stack he'd get help if he had a slip up.

I'm having to play nice with him at work and in social situations right now. It's very hard for me.

He's withheld affection and SF from me. Again.

I don't want to go through this HELL, AGAIN. I didn't get a wonderful, gushy, affectionate husband after recovery. I got a man who betrayed me, again.

Every single part of my life will change if I leave him.

Here is what I would do: start scheduling SEX. Sit down and start scheduling actual DATES. Romantic dates that last 3+ hours. You would spend 3+ hours meeting each others intimate EN's of conversation, affection, RC and then finish up the evening with SEX. If it is scheduled, you tend to get excited and look forward to it. That will help him avoid the problem of initiating. That would reduce his anxiety and yours.


Is that undivided attention where you focus on each other? Are you ALONE together? Hobbies can interfere with undivided attention. Do you have INTIMATE conversations? Do you have INTIMATE dates?

I would really focus on becoming GREAT at meeting each others INTIMATE emotional needs. Because you can be together 100 hours a day, but it will matter little if you are not intimate and the attention to each other is not undivided.


He can train himself to become superb at affection if you tie this to his need for SF. For example, your romantic dates should be an EVENT. He should spend 3+ hours with you before SF meeting your intimate emotional needs of affection and conversation. [intimate] A big part of intimate conversation is openness and honesty. He can LEARN to do that.

I would bring this up to him. Most of this is stuff that can be POJA'd, but the idea is that if he made his marriage his greatest source of happiness, he probably wouldn't want to spend too much time on the internet and in front of the TV. Start using that time to meet each others ENs out on DATES.

Can you start exercising together? That is a great way to achieve UA time.

I'm hurt, and pissed off all to hell.
My only motivations are wholly selfish.. financial. To avoid embarrassment. To avoid the pain/work of recovery, again.
I'm so mad at him I can hardly look at him.

I don't want to DO anything. He messed this up.
I'm in my mid 40's now. This is so unfair.
I hate this.

Brenda, the problem in the past is that you and your H didn't really know how to arrange your lives so he wouldn't masturbate. Having no plan is a plan to fail. You only counted on his "word," and his "willpower" which doesn't work. When you stop an addiction it is real important that you replace that huge gaping HOLE with something else or you will continue to fall in. There wasn't a plan here so he has been grappling with the same addiction all this time.

In many ways, recovery did not happen here. You and your H didn't create a romantic relationship and learn to become experts at meeting each others needs.

You have a chance to do it right this time. And you shouldn't get so angry at him when he falls. Just help him create the conditions where he doesn't fail. That is best for you both. Your anger won't solve anything.

Would you say there is logic in you staying with your husband?

You are in a business and a have major investments together? Would you say that is a logical reason to try and stay to build the passion you desire in your marriage?

You have thirteen years together. Is that a logical reason for you to consider staying in your marriage?

Restoring the passion and romance in your marriage is possible, but it will take some radical changes.

Will your husband agree to the MB program and be radically honest with you? Will he agree to never do anything without your enthusiastic agreement? This would mean ending ALL his independent behavior, including porn and masturbation - forever. Is he willing to do this to save the marriage?

The MB Online Seminar is a really good program for restoring the love and passion to your marriage.

Listen, many people here on this board have suffered multiple blows to their marriages and have recovered when both spouses got serious.

My H also had a bad habit of masturbation for years, so he became a poor lover with little desire for sex with me. He gained 50 pounds. Then he had an affair. Then I discovered porn a few years later. Then, two and a half years ago, he had another affair during deployment. I wanted to leave, too. I hated my H, too. But there was logic in trying to fix it, if it was possible. It didn't seem possible at the time that we ever not be broken.

But once we decided to recover using MB, our marriage has never gone back to the way it used to be. It's much better than it ever has been.

There is hope for you, if you and your H decide to go for recovery.

Dear BrendaEllen:


Easy one.


When I was depressed, I was also at my heaviest, and other than work, didn't do much other than stare at TV and sleep on the couch.

When my H wanted to have sex with me, my thinking was: Why on earth would he want to have sex with an ugly fat woman who couldn't get off the couch? And my answer was: He just wanted to use me for sex.

This line of thinking did not motivate me to have sex with him; in fact, it motivated me to avoid sex for as long as possible.


When I was depressed, this would not have helped me. In fact, it would have made me feel much, much worse. On a given day, and achievable goal for me would have been to sit upright. I was as likely to be able to exercise as a Sunday morning mall walker would be to climb Mount Everest.

Depression is a cognitive quagmire. The more you try to get out of it, the deeper you sink. Unless you have experienced it (meaning, a real, major depression diagnosed by a qualified professional, not the vernacular "depression" people talk about when they're having a bad hair day), it's difficult to describe. The impairment to your objective, rational thinking is life-altering.

I hope your H does see a cognitive behavioral therapist; if he is depressed, he WILL need the help.

Good luck -

BV

BUT...you are not him and can't answer for him. Men and women are wired completely different and have very different motivations for sex. Women have sex for the purpose of bonding, men have sex for the physical release. That is why you felt used when your husband had sex with you without bonding. Men are not wired like that.

The big take away is that these are his issues that he keeps avoiding that keep getting put back on me in very painful ways.

They only get addressed when something nasty happens, and then only till I stop driving the recovery train. Then he gets, as he says, into a 'rut'.

Why would I sign up for this again?

Yes, it was generally sex without bonding.

I want him to come here and have you guy work with him on PORH and O&H. He admits he cannot imagine using PORH with me, although we've discussed it many times.

I'll log off, delete this thread (later) and not look at his.
He'll do this along with his mens group and this one-on-one therapist.

I'm not going to monitor the recovery this time. He knows I'm serious. I'm not going to ask him everyday if he's read any in his books or nanny him like last time. It was like pulling teeth. If he does not want this, neither do I.

I'm going to ask him to specifically address the issues of PORH with you guys, you'll know it's him.

Thank you.

Of course. None of us can answer for one another; we can just share viewpoints and experiences. For the poster/reader, caveat emptor. This is the internet, after all.


(A number of neuroscientists studying human sexuality would disagree; however, this is neither here nor there).

Both men and women can experience depression, and loss of interest in sex and escapist behavior are symptoms. Speaking from my experience, trying to apply Marriage Builder concepts with a person who is depressed is like trying to apply them with a person who has mental illness or is engaging in substance abuse. These problems need to be resolved first.

I am not saying that BrendaEllen's husband is depressed. He may or may not be. But, he sounds a lot like me when I was depressed. I try, when I can, to reach out to posters who sound like me, because when I was depressed, I spent every hour of every day hoping to die. I would love to shorten the time just one other person feels that way. I understand BrendaEllen's H is seeking treatment from a therapist practicing CBT. I hope his therapist will help him with the behaviors that are problematic for him, whether they stem from depression or not.

I simply wanted to say to BrendaEllen that if her H is not able to participate in a plan, depression may be one avenue to investigate.


B ("my .02") V

"(A number of neuroscientists studying human sexuality would disagree; however, this is neither here nor there)."


Sorry, but Dr Harley would disagree with this and so would anyone who has studied the human brain or human psychology.. Men and women have brains that are completely different and so are their sexual motivations. This is a very important distinction when you are posting on this board. That's great that you have some experiences but that is not what this poster is here for. She is here to get help with Marriage Builders and to understand Dr Harley's opinion.

One thing you might not understand is that men who masturbate often view porn and/or for whatever reason find it easier to masturbate than try to have sex with their wives. But you can't apply your own experience to the same problem because of the obvious gender differences.

Dr Harley does address depression and his solution is to get the depression under control with anti-depressants. But we don't know if that is the issue here.