You need to up the ante, though. He can make phone calls and disagree forever.

I really do not try to negotiate with him when he is angry, it does nothing but prolong his AO. How do I not put up with his attempts to control? He says �he is THIS CLOSE� (I�m assuming he means to leaving) I don�t try to stop him but I don�t push him out the door either. He has often said if things don�t change our marriage will not work. I have come to try to view it as a 5 year old throwing a temper tantrum and it provides me with logic as to why his youngest had tantrums when she was 6 and why his older daughter has them at 21. I need to read up on FILSIL. I currently have the Lovebusters book and am trying to read through it. (I wish I was a faster reader!) I am going to wait on Steve to help me introduce the POJA. I think he can get Hs buy in better than I can. I can confront him during an AO, but what does that look like? It almost feels like anything I say will escalate the yelling and his attempts at SD and DJ. Calling 911 seems out of context and a bit extreme. He is not physically dangerous and does not throw or break things. He is scary being his size and I would imagine calling 911 would just escalate the problem. If the anger continues, how do we separate? We have three children in the house with us. I have friends� homes that I can stay in but he doesn�t really have that option. I have stayed with friends after his AO but it really puts me in a bind because I still have my own two children to care for. We can�t really afford two places to live. My friends and family are fully aware of his abuse. My parents are not happy with how he treats my kids and myself but they live 30 minutes away where it is not practical to stay with them.


Yes, that is true. I think I need to take baby steps though, for my own anxiety and sanity. Calling to make an appointment with Steve is my first step that is uncomfortable for me. Sometimes I have major anxiety issues. I will evaluate after the call to determine the next baby step. I will lean on the forum for direction as everyone has been very helpful.

Good news� I sent a email to H telling him I was scheduling an appointment and asked if he would be interested in joining. He said yes and asked for times so he could make sure his schedule is free. I have called and gotten times and provided them to him. I should hear from him shortly and be able to set it up.
The only part about this is that I feel like I have to be the driver. Why can�t he drive any of this?

Threads merged.

Phone coaching set up for tomorrow morning 6AM Central. I have huge anxiety I am so glad about the responses I have had on here. I am not good at defending myself nor explainnig myself well. I have felt like I can't do anything right by him (he is sick of hearing me say that).

Exit all conversations the minute he has an angry outburst. Cease talking, and leave the room/house. If he tries to prevent you, call the police.

Quit dwelling on the following, as it will not lead to a solution:


Good heavens; you two are nowhere near being able to POJA, because he is still having angry outbursts and hasn't even taken the first step to eliminate them. As long as the abusive love busters (demands, disrespect, and anger) continue, you'll never be able to reach enthusiastic agreement.


Goodness, no! Don't confront him! Simply stop participating and being present any time he has an angry outburst. He can't have your attention and presence if he's going to have an outburst; does that make sense?


The thing about an angry outburst is that when a person has an angry outburst, they are insane. Nothing they do makes sense, and what they do cannot be predicted. Typically, it will get worse over time.

There are women who are crippled for life because their husbands broke their back in an angry outburst, when their husband had never before done anything physical.


You are asking the wrong question. Try this:

"If the anger continues, how do I separate?"

You need to prepare for a separation now because there is no sign that he is going to do anything about his anger and he will not even take the first step.

Separation is not a step you take together. You don't talk it over ahead of time and make plans together. He doesn't get a say any more; he loses that by his refusal to deal with his anger problem. Joint decisions are for people who don't abuse each other and who want to build a life together. Separation is a unilateral decision that you take to protect yourself from a person who won't do that.


Change the locks. Inform him that he cannot come home until he eliminates his angry outbursts, and inform him that if he ever has another angry outburst, he will have to leave again.

He is responsible for continuing to support his wife and family. He will have to find another place to live. You have done nothing wrong, so why should you leave?


You can't be the driver, and no matter how hard you try to drive, you can't make him drive. You don't have the stamina to keep trying to pull and pull for years and years.

wow...scary stuff. Changing the locks will probably require me to call 911.

Why?

It sounds like you know he is actually on the verge of violence. It sounds like you know this is on the verge of becoming physical. It sounds like you know how dangerous this already is.

If he does not respect you changing the locks, you are going to need to get a restraining order. I would prepare for that now just in case it is needed.

And of course, if he shows up at the door threatening, you do need to call 911.

You won't need to defend yourself to Steve. Just start talking with him about what's going on, and it'll go fine. I don't know what he'll do, but I guess he would speak to you separately first to get a handle on the situation. Even if at the last minute you find you're the only one willing to talk to Steve, go on ahead and do it.

And let us now how the call went after ...

Don't worry about where he'll live. He's a big boy. He can figure out where to go and stay. He can figure out how to pay for it.

Because I know that will make him angry and I try to avoid what makes him angry, thus why I feel controlled. I guess he is getting compliance when he scares me like that. I always have the "walk on egg shells" feeling.

It's hard to think he would ever do anything that would be violent. He would be completely offended if I thought that he would. I know i feel scared to make him angry and I don't care to be around him for fear that I will do something (not on purpose) to make him angry.

Yea, I really feel he won't respect me changing the locks and it scares me to take that action. One because I fear his anger and two because he will leave me as that is his threat.

Thanks the encouragement is very helpful.

Our call with Steve this morning resulted in H stating that he does things for me but gets nothing in return. He said that we are really just co-existing. This breaks my heart because I know I have done things to help fill up his love bank. I have tried to eliminate the lovebusters and do the things that fill his lovebank. I know I fail but I keep trying regardless of what I get in return. I feel so discouraged but I will continue to do the things I think he needs to change that feeling in him.

I had sent Steve the questionnaires but sent it to the wrong address so he didn't see my lovebusters on Hs AO. I did interrupt about halfway through when Steve was going to talk about our assignment and told Steve I couldn't handle the AO any more. Steve changed gears and tried to logic with H. On paper it sounded good. I feel H is angry and I don't want to be around him when he is like that. I resent the emails to Steve and hope that he has a chance to read them over. We are trying to get another coaching session lined up for Tuesday at 6.

Our assignment is to interview each other on our EN. I am fine with interviewing H and actually looking forward to understanding him more. I however am terrified to share my EN. My #1 EN is Protection - honor my feelings, make them important with your words and actions. Protect me from hurt and insist on my importance. In some cases, fight for me, especially when i am hurt or scared.

This will blow him up as right now there is a situation with his daughter (21) and he protects her. He knows that is a problem and he just wants me to accept the way it is. It just makes it hurt more and builds major resentment to life in general.

Tuesday at 6 session set up! Scared to death to do the assignment though. I just want to run away.

It sounds to me as if you still have not communicated to Steve how violent and frightening these outbursts are. You indicated today for the first time that there is a problem, but you did not tell him the scale. It is a shame that you managed to talk to him today and STILL have not got this across.

From my reading of Dr Harley (Steve's father and the founder of Marriage Builders), and especially of his posts on the private forum here, he would consider the angry outbursts to be of urgent importance and would urge you to separate from your husband until he has completed an anger management course and eliminated the outbursts. He would not be getting you to work on ENs or anything else while this acute threat of violence was in place.

It sounds like you think he could be violent (because you know you might have to call 911). It sounds like you want to try to trick yourself into thinking he couldn't do that because you are afraid that just thinking it will make him angry!

I would be telling your husband that you will be glad to meet his emotional needs when he has eliminated his demands, disrespect, and anger. I think this is the kind of thing Dr. Harley would encourage you to say.

Prisca and I were listening to this older radio show from Dr. Harley last night and thinking it might be helpful for you. Have a listen:

Marriage Builders Radio, August 26, 2011:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3176
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3177
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3178
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3179

I agree with SugerCane.

Dr. Harley takes a no-nonsense approach to AOs. There is absolutely no reason for you to be messing around with questionnaires when your husband will not take the first step to protect you: admit he has an anger problem.

You may not feel that he will be violent. But many women have been killed or maimed by their husbands having an angry outburst, who had never shown any kind of violence before in their lives!

Anger is temporary insanity. You cannot trust what your husband will do or not do while he is having an outburst. Listen to your gut -- it is telling you that you are not safe and that you need to get away from this man! Your instincts are trying to protect you here, but your emotions are getting in the way.

My husband was always the gentle type -- physically affectionate, and enjoyable to talk with. But when he became angry, he did unthinkable, violent things; some of the things that he cannot even remember doing because the insanity was in control, not him. I never dreamed it would happen, because he "just wasn't that type" or "he only yells sometimes, but he'll never hurt me."

So what if he threatens to leave you? It'll be a moot point, since you will have already kicked him out. He NEEDS to leave, until he is willing and able to protect you from himself.

A good husband who discovers that his wife has changed the locks will come to her on his knees, hat in hand, asking "What do I need to do to win you back?" If he disappears from your life without another word, you are better off without him. Trust me.

For some reason I feel compelled to say to you that you won't be able to "nice" your husband out of AO's. I see where you said you were meeting his needs and stopping your Lovebusters as well as you can in the hopes that his feelings towards you will change. Do you really mean that you're hoping his treatment of you will change based upon how "good" you are?

You could be absolutely perfect, but that won't get him to stop his AOs or disrespect. It's a choice and commitment to new behavior that he will have to make, independent of how well you treat him. However, I think it's always a good idea to stop one's own Lovebusters, no matter how the relationship is. So, if you stop your Lovebusters, that's good for you, too, and making that change won't make you turn more into a doormat or emotional punching bag.

I hope that what I'm thinking made it out clearly, here.