Hi. This is Steubenville's wife.

We recently had a tough conversation where I told Steubenville that because he is quick to say (what I feel are) hurtful and angry things, I have a hard time receiving the times when he is treating me nicely as being sincere....and that I'm always awaiting the next angry (hurtful) moment.

We discussed a recent email exchange just as an example, where I had provided a one-line complaint back to him about something he said I didn't like. I tried to keep it short and humorous (but we don't get each other's humor, so I doubt he found it humorous).

He feels his response is empathetic and full of concern. He continues to see no problem with it, but I felt his response is hurtful.

Maybe our problem is we have different definitions of hurtful.

This is his response:

"you took the time to email me about this?...has it been bothering you since this morning?...eating you at the core?..we spoke on the phone..good Lord, we are in bad shape....did it even cross your mind that I may have ment good?.....perhaps save you some time?...if this bother you to the point that you felt an email follow up was needed; is worrisome, very worrisome......to me. "


Our marriage is in crisis and after a frank conversation today where I described a lot of pain I carried in our relationship, much of which had never been expressed before and was hard for him to hear, he was upset and felt near to ending the relationship.

I created this User ID for him & will send him the link to this question.

Thanks in advance for helping us out. I hope he will be here soon to provide his side and carry this discussion on from here.

What is your wife's username?

Mrs. Steubenville,

One of the cornerstones of Dr Harleys' principles is to establish care, safety and protection in the M. That is usually easy to do when people are in love. Not so much when the M is full of Independant Behavior and anger. Things Dr Harley calls LoveBusters.

If something you receive from him feels hurtful then IT IS!!! It should be your responsibility to communicate the hurt to him and then you two use the Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA) to come up with an alternative so you no longer feel hurt.

Is anger a large part of your relationship? Your M cannot survive if there is any form of anger being exhibited. It needs to be removed if your M has any hope of surviving.

Have you and your H educated yourselves on the Marriage Builder�s concepts? If you haven�t I would suggest you both read the free materials Dr Harley has provided on this site. If what you read makes a lot of sense to you you can take this one step further and purchase some of his materials that go into more detail. But start with this site. Between the free materials, this forum and Dr Harley�s radio show you will get a wealth of information that can make HUGE differences in your M.

Start here --> Basic Concepts

Check this out: How to Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts and Restore Love to Your Marriage

I don't quite understand: you created a user name for your husband, made the first post with this account, and perhaps expect him to start posting in order to improve how he treats you? Do you have your own posting name?

Steubenville (I'm going to address you as the wife),

The problem I am seeing is disrespectful judgments. You felt your husband was disrespectful, and he wants to argue that you should not be hurt.

Here is what Dr. Harley says about this:

If you read the book Love Busters together there is a plan that Dr. Harley offers to help the two of you eliminate disrespect from your marriage, and other hurtful behaviors including demands, angry outbursts, and independent behavior. The plan involves you giving your husband weekly written feedback on things he has said or done that you found disrespectful (and vice versa). He then works to eliminate those things from what he does and says (and vice versa).

BUT,

and this is a big but!

... this plan will not work if your husband does not come on board to the idea of eliminating his disrespectful judgments. If he tries to argue with you that the things he has saying are not disrespectful, or should not hurt, this plan will not work.

Dr. Harley does not suggest that wives languish for years in a marriage while the husband engages in demands, disrespect, or angry outbursts. Dr. Harley classifies this behavior as abusive. Over time it will not only erode the wife's feelings for the husband but the abuse will cause her emotional and even physical problems.

So Dr. Harley would encourage a wife in your position to present the plan in Love Busters to her husband and see if he is willing to go through it. But if he is not; if he tries to argue that she should not be hurt, or otherwise dismisses her concerns, she should prepare for a separation. One reason to do this is because a separation is a last resort giving him one last chance to do the right thing and stop abusing his wife. But another, more important, reason is to protect her from his abuse. And finally, she should recognize that their marriage is only going to get worse over time if he does not address and correct his abuse. If there is any tolerance for this behavior, it will get worse over time, until it destroys the marriage.

MrsStuebenville, to support Markos' point, please refer to this article: When to Call It Quits - Part 1


Is your husband planning on coming here?

It won't work if she creates and account for him and tells him to go get himself fixed.

That's what this looks like.

Mrs S: Mr S, I created and account over on marriagebuilders.com so you can fix what's wrong with you.

Mr S: What are you working on?

Mrs S: Nothing, you are the one who hurts me, so fix it.

I predict this will not go well for her. That simplified exchange above is how I suspect this will come across to him.

Mrs. S,

You can only change and work on yourself.

I suggest that you personally read the previous links to articles and you come back and post more about your situation.

Whatever your relationship problems are, you can start by modifying and more correctly taking charge of what You are responsible for.

LTL

Well, yes, it wouldn't be respectful to use phrases like "fix what's wrong with you." The way to put it is "There's something you are doing that is causing a problem for me: disrespectful judgments. When you say ... I find it disrespectful. Will you join me in this plan to eliminate the disrespect from our marriage?"

And then if not ... she needs to SEPARATE rather than ESCALATE (i.e., use stronger language, etc.)

As for whether he is "wrong" or not, Dr. Harley classifies disrespect as ABUSE. I am certain that she has had these conversations with him many times before. The problem is that he simply does not care and thinks she should live with abuse. He gaslights her into thinking the problem is different definitions of what is hurtful - that she shouldn't feel hurt, because he didn't mean it that way.

This is all pretty common, and that is why Dr. Harley recommends that if she brings this up to her spouse and he argues that there isn't a problem, or indicates he doesn't care, that she separate from him. That gives him one last chance and makes a great last resort plan - and it also protects her from further abuse.

Yes, but,

I imagine she's done all of this:

Dr. Harley says a wife does not have a lot of potential to bring her husband over to this approach. If she has tried all of this and he is still arguing with her whether she should be hurt or not, separation is the next step. Dr. Harley does NOT recommend that women spend YEARS languishing in disrespectful, abusive, or neglectful marriages, as so many on this forum have done. It does not work - it doesn't bring the husbands on board. It is better to raise the bar SOONER and have a chance of getting the problems fixed.

Steubenville (again I'm speaking to the wife),

Another thing you might try is see if you can get your husband to talk with Dr. Harley's son Steve or daughter Dr. Jennifer Chalmers. They offer paid marriage coaching:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html
It is possible that they may be able to get through to him about how mandatory it is that a marriage be respectful and that there be no tolerance for demands, disrespect, and angry outbursts in marriage. Maybe your husband would be willing to talk to them.

Another option would be to talk to Dr. Harley directly on his radio show:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html

Either he doesn't receive complaints well, she overwhelms him with the number of complaints because she lets things build up, or she responds disrespectfully. She says he is the one ready to end the relationship.

Obviously it would be good to get him on here. But at this point she needs to motivate him somehow because he is the one ready to call it quits.

Thank you all for responding.

Mr. Steubenville said he plans to log into this forum tomorrow morning, read all of your responses and provide his perspective. I know MB prefers spouses to stay off each other's threads once both are engaged on the forum, so I (Mrs.) can stay off his thread from here on.

A quick answer to some of the questions directed to the Mrs or about background.

--Mrs. S. has extensively studied MB materials, HNHN, LBs & this forum.

--Mrs. S. has an MB username but due to Mr. S.'s feeling last night that he was done with the marriage after understanding only part of Mrs. S's concerns about the M, Mrs. S. would appreciate MB advice on whether to be RH by exposing her account to Mr. S. at this moment. Currently RH meets with (what Mrs. S feels is) an AO and sometimes a threat to leave the marriage as well, so it would seem better to address AO issue before this next RH step? Marko's instincts are accurate as to Mrs. S's situation.

--Mrs S. recently requested a temporary separation from Mr. S. with the following conditions for return: i) anger management therapy (none has yet occurred), ii) some time to refresh her health, iii) dating each other with the prescribed UA time until their loving relationship was reignighted, and iv) counselling with Steve H. Another motive of hers was also that he have the opportunity to choose again, without the impediment of fearing disruption - it having already occurred - whether he truly wants to be in the marriage.

--The S's have had 3 sessions with Steve H. Our next will be the first session in which we talk to him together.

--The temporary separation is not off the table, but has not occurred yet. Mrs. S. stopped the process because it was unfolding detrimentally involving the children. However, Mrs. S. is unable to continue on with the M in its current form because she no longer wishes to and because it is affecting her health again.

--and to Enlightened Ex, Mrs. S. is willing to take any 2x4s she deserves as well. Mr. S has never been a forum person or one to engage in internet comments. After last night she took this initiative. It's an unusual start, perhaps even an IB, but poking a hole in someone's throat is unusual too, unless they are about to die from choking.

The elephant in the room is that Mr. has threatened to leave Mrs. so many times that she sincerely does not believe he wants to be married to her for any reason other than convenience. He will PROMISE to never threaten again, but he always goes back to the habit of including this threat in some of his AOs. As a result, she doesn't desire to be with someone who is quick to repudiate a marriage to her any more either.

Hopefully Mr. S. will be here tomorrow morning and you can hear his perspective next. He and I obviously have a difference of opinion on what an AO is, so perhaps after hearing him you will agree with his opinion that I'm oversensitive.

I (Mrs) just want the truth so this crazy train can stop. If I am the problem, I'd be glad to know that; I can fix me. But from my perspective, our 24 year marriage gets incrementally (or should I say exponentially) worse each year.

Please save any 2x4s for him until you have heard his side. Sometimes we seem to be in two different realities. I am happy to receive any you have for me, because you have heard my side now.

Thanks again for all of the hours you volunteer to help complete strangers!

Mrs. S,

You're not too sensitive. Many times people can get lost in defining what is or isn't an AO, a DJ, a demand, but the real point is that whatever it is hurts. The solution is for the other spouse to change what they do and say so that they don't hurt you. However, you can't push them to consider your feelings, you can only ask and show good faith yourself in changing your behavior to not hurt your husband. If that doesn't persuade him to change, your better choices are Plan B choices, not coercing him to come here. You want him to willingly listen to and consider the MB plan.

Mrs. S, I don't see why you would need any 2x4s. I'm sure you are quite willing to have a relationship with your husband that doesn't include demands, disrespect, or anger from either one of you. If you are making any mistakes in that regard, 2x4s are not an appropriate way for anyone to motivate you and that is not how Dr. Harley would do it.

I think Dr. Harley would focus on why you have not separated from your husband. He absolutely does advocate separation in the case of a husband who will not control his angry outbursts. Let me tell you that after two years here Prisca finally decided she was not going to take my angry outbursts any more last year and that I could not continue to live at home if I had them. And after two sessions of what I now call "Super 8 motel therapy", I believe I am quite cured! It's been over a year since my last angry outburst and Prisca couldn't be happier.

It was the right thing for her to do and we both regret that she took so long to do it.

What about the separation was detrimental to your children? Was your husband doing something to make it hard on them? Having their mother abused by their father is also detrimental to them.

Mrs. S, the number one thing that needs to change is that you need to not tolerate his angry outbursts any more. You are tolerating them and negotiating about what he does or does not include in them. The next time he has an angry outburst, you need to not know what is in it because you need to grab the kids and get gone, fast. If he tries to stop you, you should call the police.

He can have his angry outbursts alone in an empty room. You should not experience them any more.

Do you listen to Dr. Harley's free daily radio show, Mrs. S? He talks about this subject all the time. You need to make some changes; you need to listen to what he would advise you to do - and you need to act on it!!!

Please listen to these, Mrs. S:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=03732
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=03733
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=03734
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=03735

Mrs. S, don't request a separation. It's not up to him. Tell him you're separating, why, and how to win you back. It's time for him to step up to the plate and do what it takes to keep you. If he won't, then he really isn't worth your time.

Read the link in my signature on "What to do with an Angry Husband," if you haven't already done so.

Goodness, Mrs. S, this is an abuse tactic! Your husband is gaslighting you! You are not too sensitive!

He needs to hold that debate by himself in an empty room, not with you. He should not be debating with you about whether his AOs are really AOs or not. To do so is abusive. That alone is worth separating for, Mrs. S. It indicates that he is not willing to get help.

Please read again this comment that I posted from Dr. Harley's book Love Busters. It is the foundation of how to eliminate demands, disrespect, and angry outbursts. It is written about DJs, but it applies to SDs and AOs, too: